00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.27 00:20:58 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202.0.42.22) joined #forth 01:24:16 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 01:48:32 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:48:33 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:26:31 haho! 03:14:54 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 03:43:15 --- join: Fractal_ (aibfxi@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 03:58:00 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:30:36 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-192.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:02:33 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:02:33 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:08:30 sif: : bah 0 do i 1- recurse ." Booh!" cr loop ; 3 bah 05:08:31 Robert: Word not found: 1- 05:08:37 sif: : bah 0 do i 1 - recurse ." Booh!" cr loop ; 3 bah 05:08:38 Robert: rstack overflow 05:08:42 hehe. 05:09:09 I just love recursive functions going crazy. 07:15:47 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:15:51 hi 07:17:28 hello Serg_penguin. 07:17:33 hi 07:18:34 is it true what many books on IT are given to colleges and institutes on CD for very cheap price ? 07:19:58 I've never heard of that, though I know that O'Reilly has CD books (*and please stop messaging me*) 07:20:16 O'Reilly has CDs of books, that is. 07:20:21 why u don't like msg's ? 07:20:42 because, in this client, it opens a new window. Yecch. 07:21:06 can one cd-roast'em and send to me by snail mail? 07:21:50 Serg - I can't, and it would probably be illegal to do so with the O'Reilly CDs; you might find someone, though. 07:22:08 on what chan should i better ask ? 07:22:11 I remember that #linuxwarez on EFNet, for instance, had a six-book O'Reilly collection. 07:23:02 i mean MASSIVE amount of books, like "all on unix" or "all on general comp sci" 07:23:10 ah. 07:23:24 maybe it can be found in universitys only 07:23:25 That would be *incredibly* cool, but I don't know where you'd find it. 07:23:47 There are lots of people in universities; perhaps you can post a request to some part of Usenet. 07:23:59 brb few mins 07:24:50 back 07:25:10 on what group(s) should i better post ? 07:27:47 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 07:27:50 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 07:28:24 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:28:47 serg - maybe alt.books.electronic; browse groups.google.com 07:28:53 re hi - hit wrong butt. rat-driven GUI - mustdie !!!!! 07:29:15 or alt.books.technical 07:30:21 irc.bookwarez.net; EFnet #bookwarez 07:30:33 (for the possibly less legal alternatives) 07:31:13 connecting.... 08:00:20 re hi 08:35:42 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:36:32 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit) 08:37:04 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:46:46 zzz 08:48:53 ooh, learned alot at bookwarez ...... 08:49:41 ah, make any progress? 08:52:52 yes, found bundle of orelly 60 megs 27 books, and irc / fserve faqs ;) 09:07:57 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:08:06 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-192.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:15:06 re hi ) 09:35:01 re hi 09:44:10 nobody is going to say anything unless you start talking about something interesting or you ask questions 09:44:15 that's how to start a conversation .. 09:44:21 not saying hi 09:44:23 or messaging people 09:45:28 i was just talking w/ cleverdra about bookwarez 09:46:31 whaddo u work on now ? 09:46:40 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.45.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 09:47:10 i now work on hardware - will make an optical joystick 09:48:44 is here a chan for ones hacking hardware ? 09:49:16 i dunno 09:49:27 might be, if not... start one :) 09:49:40 it only took a year before #forth had THREE whole regulars :) 09:49:59 and then i came along? ;P 09:50:35 i assume the regulars were: I440r, thebluewizard, and mrreach ? 09:52:32 tried to search #forth in google, but it ignores # :( 09:53:33 Hi people :-) 09:54:02 * Robert wants his AVR board. Toys are fun! 09:54:08 im not sure when tbw came along, but mrreach and bongo were some of the first 09:54:18 there was another one who has sorta drifted away tho 09:54:25 i forget his nick heh 09:54:45 nate37? 09:54:58 I remember him from a long time ago. 09:55:03 Like a year. 09:55:07 he came by later heh 09:55:33 nate37 was never into forth that much 09:55:34 there were some semi regulars, come in, chat a while, then disappear for a few days 09:55:38 sort of like tbw is now 09:55:55 aaronl was semi regular in here i htink 09:55:58 think 09:56:09 and aum too (he still drops by occasionally :) 09:56:11 he came after me i think 09:56:17 aaronl .. ? 09:56:21 yea you were one of the first 09:56:36 yes he came in here a few times, not sure if he was ever that interested, cant remember heh 09:56:38 naw, aum comes on opn lots but never comes onto #forth anymore 09:56:45 he's on right now 09:56:47 for example 09:56:48 he was in here yesterday 09:56:50 oh 09:56:55 eh? 09:56:57 idling :P 09:57:32 heh 09:57:36 lurking 09:58:41 brb coffee is ready! 09:58:46 --- join: Serg_p (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 09:59:18 all the same people ) 09:59:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 09:59:47 what else good forth chan does one know ? 10:00:04 --- topic: set to 'Forth: Chuck Moore's Language, not ANS | http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by futhin 10:00:15 Serg_p: there are no other forht chans 10:00:17 forth* 10:00:41 damn.... i got cloned ??? sorry..... 10:00:49 --- quit: Serg_p (Client Quit) 10:00:49 why do you ask? you not happy with this chan? you never talk on this chan anyways :P 10:00:51 hm 10:00:52 bah 10:01:16 futhin - Serg and I have had many pleasant conversations. 10:01:27 i have inet only at work, so here's no much time to chat..... 10:01:46 --- topic: set to 'Forth: Chuck Moore's Language. ANS Forth is a different language of the same name. | http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by futhin 10:01:53 ok dammit, which one of you assholes forgot to put coffee grounds in my coffee maker when i made coffee :P 10:02:01 lol i440r 10:02:14 doh! 10:02:19 Serg_penguin: do you ever read the channel logs? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 10:02:31 once. 10:02:53 futhin reads them all over and over 10:02:54 every day 10:02:58 nope 10:03:01 i wish :/ 10:03:02 dont lie! 10:03:04 we have hard traffic limits, so i download only VERY needed things 10:03:11 i plan on reading ALL of the logs one day 10:03:22 i440r wants me to collect all the most memorable quotes.. 10:03:39 ya 10:03:41 serach engine on logs will be great idea... 10:03:47 except the ones that make me look stoopid :) 10:04:07 * cleverdra proceeds to generate a quote: 10:04:12 i440r: i've been on #forth 24/7 for the last two, three weeks.. that's not really normal for me.. and i read the backlog on my client 10:04:24 "This quote is memorable in spite of itself." 10:04:36 working on #forth ? 10:04:53 i440r: if i dragged out all the things that make you look stupid, i'll have to drag out all the things that make me look stupid 10:05:04 and arguably, i've said wayyy more stupid & bullheaded things than you have 10:05:05 ;P 10:05:23 lol 10:05:31 i doubt it :) 10:05:37 heheh 10:06:09 no i'm not working on #forth right now 10:06:16 but i'm working on forth website and other stuff 10:06:24 well, i gotta go to work now 10:06:26 so ttyl 10:06:29 * futhin is now afk 10:12:35 so what thing do you work on now ? 10:24:42 who 10:24:45 me ? 10:24:56 no silly, he obviously means *me*. 10:25:08 lol 10:25:42 Serg - I'm not working on adding ALLOCATE/FREE/RESIZE to IsForth, though it would be amusing if I were. 10:25:58 its already added (except resize) 10:26:07 i just need to 'release' it 10:27:02 Yes, that's why it would be so amusing if I were working on that. 10:28:35 stupid q: 10:28:53 then my mIRC has focus, it beeps on new saying 10:29:05 then it has no focus, it doesn't beep 10:29:22 how can i make it beep always if one says something? 10:29:37 err wait ill look 10:30:14 Serg - 'action', I think, on messages. Every time you get a message mIRC will play a little .wav 10:30:40 i got no soundcard so it just beeps pc-speaker 10:31:20 so how can i find action' ? 10:31:28 'action' ? 10:31:49 its scripting stuff 10:32:04 excuse me for being lamer, but i used to use Unix proggies w/ well commented configs..... 10:32:06 i dont do mirc scripts no more :) 10:32:18 at home :( 10:32:58 Serg - that's not lame =) 10:33:21 now i switch to other app, say something continously 10:33:40 eh ? 10:34:27 type some blah-blah in chan or msg it to me, so i can test does it beep then i in email client or IE 10:38:02 how funny - then i ask to type some rubbish for test, all go silent :) 10:38:47 lol 10:38:52 THATS what you meant! 10:39:00 sorry heh 10:39:26 blah blah blah 10:39:33 blah blha 10:39:36 blah 10:39:39 blaa blah blah 10:39:39 no beeps 10:39:45 stupid thing !!!!! 10:40:58 oh, i'll go home - too late, 21:40... 10:42:36 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 10:47:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote closed the connection) 10:54:54 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 10:55:41 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.45.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 11:09:04 --- nick: XeF4pois -> XeF4 11:13:09 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 11:20:56 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@66.222.206.195) joined #forth 11:27:27 --- quit: XeF4 ("->booze") 12:26:33 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 12:26:35 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:00:07 --- part: air left #forth 13:27:36 --- nick: Fractal_ -> Fractal 13:27:48 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@66.222.206.195) joined #forth 14:02:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:02:26 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:59:34 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 15:17:24 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login2.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:21:50 tcn! where was that opcode map? 15:22:47 hi, tcn & akk 15:23:09 all 15:23:09 hey all 15:23:22 whats the news? 15:23:27 umm.. tunes.org/~tcn/pub 15:23:54 /opcodes.html 15:24:14 hehe, its straightfwd :) 15:24:21 news? there is no news! 15:25:55 not even NeWS, but there is squeak! :]]] 15:26:37 does anybody remember how have we found squeak? 15:26:41 some days b4 15:26:53 thanks. 15:28:11 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@66.222.206.195) joined #forth 15:28:17 water from #tunes likes squeak 15:28:31 hello kitanin 15:29:04 tcn: can the small C compiler on your pared-down linux 2.2 system (nearly) compile Linux? 15:29:39 tcn: have u ever tried squeak? 15:30:23 tcn: if we plan 2 create a 4thOS squeak could support it w several ideas ithink 15:31:09 yeah, i tried squeak once.. didn't impress me 15:31:15 tcn: this opcode map is a fair bit more pleasant than the Intel version. 15:31:24 heh 15:31:40 tcn: how come? when have u tried it? 15:32:02 tcn: coz now as of version 3.2 or what its incredibly impressing 15:32:08 there's a "small C/plus" compiler I haven't messed with yet, but it does structs/unions and some other things you'd need to compile linux.. 15:32:50 i'm NOT downloading squeak.. it'll take to long 15:33:03 you have DSL 15:35:30 man, Linux is a pain for sound recording 15:37:05 a simple 'record' program runs a subthread at high priority then uses SysV shared memory to send it back to the parent thread.. 15:41:48 :) linux in itself is also a pain, coz an OS inherently a pain 15:42:05 do you not have an mmapable /dev/dsp driver? 15:42:26 tcn: but while we r chatting, it would b a pain 4 ya 2 dl squeak.. 15:42:55 tcn: but u didnt tell me when have u tried squeak the last time? 15:43:00 how can you mmap /ev/dsp? it's always changing? 15:43:43 onetom: a year or two ago 15:44:07 tcn: you can mmap the dma buffers and make use of them before they are overwritten 15:44:36 aha. it must b developped a lot since then.. 15:44:37 iirc, OSS provides some sort of callback mechanism for recording (signal?). 15:44:46 but you still can't hook the soundcard interrupt can you? 15:44:51 tcn: what record program do u use? 15:45:04 sox, now 15:45:25 tcn: not directly, but moment, refetching OSS examples. 15:45:27 and why did u say its a pain? 15:45:39 hi, back from work 15:45:41 doesnt wanna record wo clicks 4 ya? 15:45:50 it works fine for me 15:45:58 bah.. i've been working and i've had muscle exhaustion for the last week heh 15:46:12 it's where your arms feel completely dead and you just swing them around to accomplish things ;P 15:46:15 but a lot of the sound code i've looked at has all kinds of crazy buffering schemes 15:46:15 just u were curious and checked the bloody sources 4 fun? 15:47:51 you know, i used to use this "Allegro" game programming library that had nice realtime support.. i should make that into an OS :) 15:48:53 it runs under DOS in protected mode.. so it is almost an OS already 15:49:18 futhin: me gf is workin at the building of a stadium as a translator 15:49:36 futhin: so she feels the same just in her legs :) 15:50:23 tcn: but it was proprieatary, wasnit? 15:50:49 aha, it seems select() returns when the soundcard generates an interrupt 15:50:57 *cursecurse* linux-- 15:52:08 onetom: nope 15:53:04 i contributed code to it 15:53:33 music code, as a matter of fact :) 15:55:42 heh.. if I was writing a game now I'd use MP3's and put REAL music in it. 15:56:26 (so much easier to record an mp3 than to use trackers/sequencers) 15:58:31 it hasn't moved.. http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/allegro/ 16:01:54 --- join: CrowKiller (Forther@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3654355.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 16:06:09 --- mode: futhin set -o futhin 16:07:08 futhin I didnt forgot your idea about doing a single forth system togheter as a group 16:08:10 i think it may be the single best way to learn and do something useful in the same time 16:08:18 yeah 16:08:18 --- part: Kitanin left #forth 16:08:48 in my opinion, we should start with creating a design.. 16:09:18 i think i'll dig into all my little documents with ideas & designs and create a more comprehensive design 16:09:37 and then everyone else can add changes to it, etc 16:10:53 i have been reading lots of documents about software projects 16:11:05 and i picked up "the mythical man-month" from the library yesterday 16:11:40 so hopefully i'll get some good ideas 16:11:54 about how we'll work together, etc 16:13:24 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 16:14:32 hah, good luck coming in as a young kid and trying to start a big project :) 16:14:46 we need to get a base system running 16:15:20 once its done coding ans sharing code can be fun 16:15:31 didn't you guys just start doing forth? 16:15:38 hahaaaa, crow!! 16:15:42 gotcha! 16:16:33 so did you looked at my code? the preamble at the beggining was written late at night, but the code should be 90% functionnal 16:16:46 crow: where is it? 16:17:04 tcn: is writing a machineforth implementation in dos a "big" project? 16:18:36 oh, no 16:18:39 tcn: by dcc 16:18:51 .lst, text file 16:19:00 something like squeak but coded in forth, a forth system that can run on top of windows, dos, linux, and can run natively.. an actual general purpose os, gui, internet, editor, etc.. it all starts with 1 implementation.. an implementation that can be coded for linux and for windows 16:19:37 onetom: can you post it on the wiki? 16:20:15 i'm thinking it should be machineforth for 2 reasons: 1) it could run on forthchips natively in the future. 2) ultratechnology/chuck moore says MachineForth is the simplest, smallest, and fastest forth. 16:20:17 futhin: now that's a big fiasco 16:20:37 tcn: hrm? what do you mean? 16:20:53 squeak is great, but incomprehensible 16:21:08 what you're talking about is unmanageable 16:21:25 so anyways.. with a forth system, individual things need to be coded.. internet, graphics handling, gui.. etc.. just extend forth, etc 16:21:32 futhin: forget the mainstream OSs 16:21:35 CrowKiller: incomp.? why? 16:21:37 tcn: ?? squeak wasn't unmanageable 16:22:11 have you seen squeak's source code? 16:22:19 it exists tho 16:22:20 :P 16:22:29 that's what i was talking about 16:23:01 i interpreted "unmanageable" to mean it wouldn't get created 16:23:11 it wouldn't even be 14 megs 16:23:25 CrowKiller: anyway, i was just about to give u jesse u havent mailed me what uve promised 16:23:31 it'd be maybe 40k.. mayyybe 140k 16:23:35 CrowKiller: coz i got no mail from u 16:23:56 onetom: i asked for your email when i quitted i wasnt logging and my backlog was too short 16:24:01 crowkiller: email me your source at jbrobey@yahoo.com please :) 16:24:01 CrowKiller: but i forgot that i gave u my secondary email address ;) 16:24:19 futhin: k 16:24:23 thanks! 16:24:36 hey, read this.. http://alleg.sourceforge.net/future/shawns_thoughts.txt 16:25:35 this is a guy who has managed a big software project for 8+ years 16:25:41 crowkiller: if the forth system were _perfect_ for me.. it _would_ be userfriendly and it _would_ be powerful. it would be better than windows & linux.. it would have _some_ elements of mainstream OSes.. but it would be more advanced in many ways 16:26:36 tcn: how old are you? 16:26:42 25 16:26:49 just like me :) 16:29:00 [01:32] squeak is great, but incomprehensible 16:29:05 [01:33] CrowKiller: incomp.? why? 16:29:12 kk 16:29:18 nah, guys 16:29:21 listen: 16:29:22 i cant read any otehr thing thaht basic and forth lol 16:29:29 CrowKiller: ;) 16:29:43 u were just talkin about collaboration on 4th 16:30:03 i would recommend 2 try 2 use squeak 4 this 16:30:32 - in theory its gonna b perfect, ihope - 16:30:36 i have trouble using it 16:31:05 sharing code on irc should do the trick 16:31:08 because, it has an astonishingly easy 2 use collaboration extension 16:31:14 ?? 16:31:26 yes yes 16:31:34 let me quote it 16:31:35 --- join: tcn2 (~tcn@dillinger.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 16:31:36 sec 16:31:41 i havenot looked at that part yet 16:31:53 maybe that why they got so much features and we got nothing lol 16:33:14 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:33:15 did I miss anything? after 25 16:33:35 the navigation bar has a Share button as its 1st button 16:33:45 it serves 4 that purpose 16:33:59 crow: I never got that forth.lst file.. could you resend it? 16:34:03 tcn2: not much 16:34:46 tcn2: ive just started 2 recommend squeak as collaboration platform on developing our "community4th" ;) 16:35:56 tcn: dont bother reading the blabla at the start 16:36:05 the function code is broken too 16:36:09 ok 16:36:13 because it got 6 bit indexes 16:36:26 [01:33] CrowKiller: incomp.? why? 16:36:28 and the table is raw code but 256 bytes longs 16:36:29 oops 16:36:55 onetom: go on with the share button please 16:37:23 http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1356 16:37:36 ck: looks like colorforth 16:37:45 lets try it :) 16:38:44 tcn: this ix c18 virtual machine + aha 16:38:55 using 8 bit tokens 16:40:35 i see 16:41:08 CrowKiller: hey, still got no mail from ya. 16:41:09 squeak stopped working when i pressed share and then accept 16:41:19 haha 16:41:21 CrowKiller: could u resend it 2 bot of my addresses? 16:41:22 onetom: i need your adress! ;p 16:41:44 CrowKiller: eh, i gave it twice the day b4 yesterday... 16:42:23 well, if you guys are gonna take on this big project, i've got something to say.. 16:42:58 i spent the last 5 years working on a Forth OS.. i'm abandoning the project.. 16:43:00 * CrowKiller will put onetom's address in his adress book when he will get it ;p 16:43:21 address book 16:43:43 tcn: join the party ;p 16:44:02 CrowKiller: hermantom@freemail.hu tom@linux.gyakg.u-szeged.hu 16:44:11 tcn2: ? why? 16:44:52 tcn2: and why now, when so many supporters gathered 2gether? 16:44:53 Forth compilers are easy to write. Forth programs are much harder, and it becomes tiresome.. I would rather use C or Pascal, or even BASIC, just so I could WRITE MY OWN PROGRAMS and GET THEM DONE.. 16:45:37 tcn2: hmmm... ican also feel what u feel too.. 16:45:57 C/Pascal/etc do some hard work in the compiler so you don't have to do it all the time 16:46:36 tcn2: but im very curious about what chuck and jeff talks about.. 16:47:24 Nobody ever said Forth was more efficient than C "pound for pound", just that Chuck forth's are very simple and that's what makes them efficient.. 16:48:05 hm hm color 4th seems a good way 2 go, i think 16:48:26 onetom: what do they talk about..? 16:49:00 they talk about more efficiently coded programs in 1/100th size 16:49:12 Yeah, you can do that in any language 16:49:14 1000x speed and 1/10th devel time.. 16:50:45 but most langs r not so nicely interactive as 4th is 16:50:50 that may be true, but it's not because of Forth 16:51:05 but? 16:51:09 tcn: you have to believe in forth, every member of the project should consider forth as a way of life lol 16:51:19 :))) 16:51:47 i haven't been through initiation rites yet 16:51:54 tcn2: but @ least help us developing it ;) 16:52:16 | 16:52:21 --+-- 16:52:23 | 16:52:24 | 16:52:27 haha 16:52:43 but wait.. its just a cross.. 16:52:51 let me transform it! 16:53:11 /| 16:53:17 | 16:53:22 /| 16:53:28 nah... 16:53:33 /| 16:53:38 / | 16:53:45 --+-- 16:53:50 | 16:53:54 16:54:03 well? ;) 16:54:22 its an upside down cross, anyway >:D 16:54:34 just do a deep zen-like meditation removing everything that obfuscates your vision: desires and goals from your conscious mind, try to see, to feel the void within you and... well forth will pop up under your nose ;p lol 16:54:36 *ROFL* anyways, I'm 25. 5 years on Forth OSes.. 15+ years of Basic, Pascal, C, Asm, Forth.. but I'm only 25! I'm still learning a lot 16:54:55 loll 16:55:16 a project like this needs someone 50+ years old for guidance 16:55:29 im a programming virgin, im 17 and never seriously coded in anything except assembly 16:55:57 tcn2: i have ...hm.. lil idea 16:56:15 I dunno why I waited 20 years to learn ASM. it's fucking great 16:56:27 tcn2: u mentioned that writing 4th is easy but writing apps 4 it is not 16:56:35 i dont want to learn c or other languages only forth suffice me, i already learned it but i cant practice it the way i want to 16:57:12 tcn2: well, then lets play and write apps 1st and later try 2 create 4thes for 16:57:38 C makes sense once you know Asm, or at least forth.. so you understand low level stuff 16:57:49 the an underlying 4th for most expressively written app 16:57:56 ... for the ... 16:58:33 4th would be a good first language for kids.. easy to do simple things.. and they haven't learned algebra yet.. 16:58:58 i would LOVED to have a forth system in my youth 16:59:06 amen 16:59:38 tcn2: im about 2 learn smalltalk, coz it looks pretty expressive and squeak has proved its usefulness 17:00:32 tcn2: then i plan 2 reuse the experiences during the creation of and the extesion research of a forth system 17:00:38 smalltalk.. that's one language i've never learned. looks *unique* but i'm suspicious of it. 17:00:50 so you let me know how it is :) 17:01:20 tcn2: i just found squeak ~ 2days b4 and 17:01:26 sec, phone 17:02:51 im not far from trying 2 program it... 17:04:12 i have 2 note, i have serious turbo vision and delphi skills 17:04:36 and after those smalltalk doesnt look odd at all 17:04:40 you should know that I'm biased against GUI's.. i like graphics, games, etc, it's not like i'm a "non-visual learner". I hate GUI's. 17:05:02 --- nick: tcn2 -> tcn 17:05:16 squeak's gui is quite unique ;p 17:05:25 not to say a real pain in the *** 17:05:26 tcn: am also a fan of commandlines - if u r so.. 17:05:37 yup 17:06:17 tcn: but squeak still maked me believe that a GUI can also b highly comfortable and efficiently usable 17:06:43 i have NO interest in a "generic user interface for every idiot" :) 17:07:07 tcn: just think that u can deal w any object u can see not just via their visible parts, but also programmatically 17:07:21