00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.26 00:28:10 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:38:11 --- join: Fractal (ass@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 02:48:09 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:32:27 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 04:33:42 --- quit: ASau (Client Quit) 04:41:51 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 04:41:51 --- quit: ASau (Client Quit) 04:42:30 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 04:49:38 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:47:32 jaja, hat bizony az ekezetekrol kicsit megfeledkeztem en is 05:59:03 Hooray for hungarian! 06:00:13 Wah! 06:00:25 Hey ASau :) 06:00:33 onetom: Are you hungarian? 06:00:45 (Yes) 06:02:14 I try to find one libretto after Miclos... I don't know how it is on Hungarian... 06:02:23 D'arfas (?) 06:02:37 Dyarfas(?) 06:03:02 Maybe you know... 06:03:20 No, heh. 06:03:46 Let me see...(1 min...) 06:08:30 I don't know hungarian spelling... 06:08:51 I know only russian translation... 06:10:33 I've seen an TV-spectacle after Miclos Dyarfas "Wake up and sing"(?) 06:10:57 approx. 1977-1978 yr of production. 06:11:39 I'd like to read an english or russian translation of the original work. 06:11:56 I'd prefer a Swedish one, but that's me. 06:13:24 I hardly found out hungarian spelling of "Miklosh" - "Miclos" (possibly with diacritics). 06:14:16 I had to dig in hungarian national web...terrible thing in case you don't know the language. 06:14:22 :] 06:14:26 Haha 06:14:28 Yeah ;) 06:15:46 Interesting test... 06:15:58 Âèäíî êèðèëëèöó? 06:16:08 Do you see cyrillic? 06:16:35 Nope, but I can switch to cyrillic mode. 06:16:43 Now I see it. 06:17:08 Äà-à-à... Òÿæåëûé ñëó÷àé. 06:17:10 But... heh. 06:17:16 Looks like nonsense. 06:17:52 Bchdmn jchpchkkch..something..s 06:17:57 That's the first row. 06:18:07 (I think) 06:18:17 I don't know cyrillic that well, heh. 06:18:52 'Ï' must look as capital greek "pi". 06:19:46 May be most signed bit is cut off? 06:20:19 îÏ ÉÄÅÁ 06:20:25 oops 06:20:41 Hrrm. 06:20:50 Hmm. What encoding do you use? 06:21:30 koi8 06:42:33 hi 06:43:17 Robert: squeak is amazing. it didnt let me sleep since i found it :) 07:22:32 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EBE.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:23:01 hi 07:23:43 hi 07:24:03 * onetom squeaks :) (squeak.org) 07:25:02 id like 2 c a 4thOS what is so sophisticated in inner design as squeak 07:25:44 but the GUI is unimportant. fullscreen taskswiching will b sufficient 07:25:59 * Speuler receives a battery warning: 15 min left :( 07:26:14 but stealing graphical algos from, squeak is a perfect mine 07:40:54 Squeak? Isn't that some smalltalk environment? 07:48:01 * Speuler baffled: AC off-line, battery status low: 7% (0:14:00) 08:00:46 squeak didn't let you sleep? how cruel! see how mean squeak is?! it stole your sleep! 08:00:56 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 08:05:13 Hehe. 08:05:17 Hi XeF4, futhin :) 08:05:40 hi. 08:10:50 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.218.5.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 08:11:21 Hey I440r 08:11:54 hallo 08:13:22 hi! 08:14:22 so whussup ? 08:15:04 onetom has discovered squeak and is in rapture over the squeak model/system 08:15:27 and naturally wants something like squeak for forth.. 08:15:46 i have been working on a forthwebsite.. http://sempiternity.org/forth/ 08:16:17 and been pondering postscript in forth 08:16:45 postscript-like graphics system in forth that is 08:17:02 futh: do you mean "abstract" by "excerpt"? 08:17:22 no, it's ripped off from somewhere else 08:17:29 and i forgot the page & haven't given credit 08:17:37 its temporary 08:17:45 i'll write up my own explanation of forth 08:17:53 :) 08:27:41 Forth was kicked out of Eden just before Adam and Eve, since God hated stacks. 08:27:52 Therefor, Forth is associated with sin. 08:30:52 it gets worse. Forth is a "fourth-generation" language. I guess its creators didn't learn from the first 3 Babel towers.. :-) 08:31:21 Was there 3 towers in Babel? 08:31:35 not until CS people came along 08:31:36 * Robert only thought there was one :D 08:50:07 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 09:07:05 you are wrong, god loves stacks, that's why he lovingly pushed stacks out into the real world 09:13:40 If I'm right, he pushed them into the real world to destroy humankind. 09:20:47 --- quit: ASau () 09:21:32 no 09:21:47 because you said adam and eve were kicked out _after_ 09:21:48 jeez! 09:22:00 beaten by a smarter kid! 09:23:24 You know, the Bible isn't logic. 09:23:28 So why should I be? 09:23:38 nuh-uh! talk to the hand! :P 09:23:48 God kicked the stacks once, the Devil brought them back, then he pushed them to us. 09:24:49 what the hell are you yaking about 09:25:06 why have you suddenly started bullshiting about stacks being evil?!?!?!!? 09:25:07 GOD IS PUNISHING US! 09:25:08 wtf?! 09:25:09 fuck you! 09:25:11 heh 09:25:18 yeah 09:25:20 Heh. 09:25:20 no 09:25:26 C is GOD PUNISHING US 09:25:33 Forth screws people's minds. 09:25:35 OLD CRAPPY PROGRAMMING PARADIGMS IS GOD PUNISHING US 09:25:40 no 09:25:42 only stupid people 09:25:51 only stupid people with old paradigms 09:25:52 Hehe. 09:26:04 So, you and I have forth-screwed minds. 09:26:11 if forth was the _first_ programming language taught to people 09:26:17 everybody would think forth was perfectly normal 09:26:18 and easy 09:26:20 and understandable 09:26:26 No. 09:26:28 yes 09:26:37 Since they were used to algebraic notation from math :) 09:26:52 no you teach them forth when they are still doing 09:26:55 2 09:26:59 + 3 09:27:06 --- 09:27:09 5 09:27:13 btw, I was trying to write an algebraic expression parser in forth. 09:27:24 The local variables were driving me crazy. 09:27:28 that's cause you have a screwed mind 09:27:38 Too much stack magic screws your mind :) 09:27:39 Heh. 09:27:45 Maybe, yes... 09:27:48 But, heh. 09:27:52 I AGREE! too much stack magic is GAY 09:27:54 I couldn't factor it much better. 09:28:05 that's WHY I NEVER USE ANY STACK MAGIC.. hahahahaha! 09:28:09 Heh. 09:28:11 you should code better 09:28:16 stop messing with the stack 09:28:27 YES ONLY USE VARIABLEZ 09:28:31 no 09:28:34 ew 09:28:38 Factorize? :) 09:28:39 no variables, no stack magic 09:28:40 That 09:28:49 That's not always easy. 09:28:58 robert: you aren't coding forth when you are coding in forth 09:29:00 you are coding C 09:29:01 or pascal 09:29:08 or whatever previous language that's brainwashed you 09:29:16 you keep coding that even when you are coding in forth 09:29:29 How SHOULD I code instead? 09:29:47 read ultratechnology.com articles to find out how chuck moore codes 09:29:50 then do it like he does 09:29:57 Heh, OK. 09:30:00 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 09:30:03 Anything special that's worth reading? 09:30:04 Hey proteusguy. 09:30:18 Howdy Robert 09:31:15 --- nick: proteusguy -> proteus-away 09:31:38 Chuck Moore's programming rules: 09:31:38 a word should not be more than 1 or 2 lines of code 09:31:38 a word should not pass more than 2 parameters by stack 09:31:38 don't manipulate more than 3 items on the stack 09:31:38 if there are more than 3 items on the stack that you need to manipulate, try solving the problem in a different way, perhaps factorize it more - the end results will be better 09:31:50 robert: follow those rules as strictly as possible 09:31:54 and you will be amazed 09:31:57 it'll be hard at first 09:32:00 but you'll get good at it 09:32:30 Hah. 09:32:32 keep the words short, and don't bother too much with any fancy identing 09:32:42 That Jeff Fox looks like a VERY sane guy. 09:32:53 he is 09:33:00 why are you trying to belittle forth? 09:33:06 or belittle forthers? 09:33:09 He's giving over-bloated programs and systems a big slap :) 09:33:12 Am I? 09:33:35 well i hope "that jeff fox looks like a VERY sane guy" wasn't sarcastic 09:33:47 It wasn't. 09:34:46 I'm just suprised how he - like not too many others - talk about how money is wasted on hardware that wouldn't be nessecary if the programs were less bloated. 09:35:19 ? 09:35:29 lots of people talk about how money is wasted on hardware 09:35:33 I know. 09:35:36 k 09:35:43 But, still too few. 09:36:08 And most of them (if not all) are programmers and computer scientists. 09:36:31 There are even programmers who don't react. 09:36:53 I just liked Jeff's text about it. 09:40:21 And... it reminds me about a project I want to do for school. 09:40:49 Make a tiny computer (maybe just with a PIC and a test board, that's about what the budget allows), and play with Forth on it. 09:44:01 * Robert imagines coding forth using binary switches.... 09:44:06 MmmMmmm...that'd be nice. 09:53:20 well that's what making forthchips is all about isn't it? :P 09:53:36 speuler coded some nands and xors and stuff in brainfuck 09:53:43 and then he started writing a forth out of them 09:53:44 i think 09:56:11 Robert - check out the Atmel AVRs. Great support community - cheap & powerful. Is well designed for forth whereas the PIC doesn't have the registers you need. 09:56:31 --- nick: proteus-away -> proteusguy 09:56:36 Yes, and the PICs are rather resouce starved. 09:56:47 Especially the 16f84. 09:57:05 That is, if you want to have Forth code in RAM. 09:57:06 well that's why you can get them for $3 :) 09:57:11 ;) 09:57:12 Yeah. 09:57:18 Well, I'll see whan I can get. 09:57:28 Anything is better than nothing :) 09:57:44 Last year my school forced me to do MS-Word excercises. 09:57:45 there is this open source forth compiler for the 16bit pics. lemme find it. 09:57:49 I think there are AVRs that have gate array packages as well. Could put your forth in there possibly... I'm just looking at them now. 09:57:51 To even hope for a PIC might be too much. 09:58:11 "Gate array package"? What is that? 09:58:40 http://mary.pepix.net/ .. the PIC that it's for it supposadly pretty decent. 09:58:51 Lets you design your own chip by laying out gates then burns to the chip and you can create your own cpu or support ic. 09:59:05 is that like an FPGA ? 09:59:10 Exactly. 09:59:18 Field Programmable Gate Array i believe. 09:59:23 correct again. 10:00:14 Oooh, neat. 10:00:47 But, please remember the only electronics I've ever done is to solder together a few components. 10:00:53 My PIC programmer didn't even work. 10:01:44 i had a lot of luck with the scenix kit at parallaxinc.com .. comes with two SX28 (like a 12-bit PIC) and a simple serial port programmer & ICE. 10:02:38 but it's pretty much impossible to do a forth on an SX28. :P 10:03:20 Never say never :P 10:03:21 Hmm 10:03:25 How much did that kit cost? 10:03:43 Robert - then I'd say get an AVR starter kit (~ $75) which comes with free Windows software to program the thing. Its a gentle entry into embedded and easy to understand. 10:04:18 proteusguy: Where can I buy one of those? If I get a programmer + chip + testing board, I'd buy it for $75! 10:05:30 hold and I'll get you a url... 10:06:07 Thanks... I'd love something that can ship to Sweden :) 10:06:14 (Without charging $50) 10:06:31 the parallax kit is $95 i think and comes with a breadboard with some lights on it:) 10:06:48 Sounds decent, too. 10:06:55 but I think AVR is more powerful chip. but SX28 is less expensive. 10:07:15 I'll take it if I can't get the AVR ;) 10:08:01 ouch. $180 for the SX kit now. they used to have this SX "university" kit for under $100 but i don't see it on thier site anymore. 10:08:12 :-( 10:08:26 *sigh* 10:08:30 Let's hope the AVR kit is better. 10:08:48 Also a simple RISC one-chip computer? 10:09:04 http://www.xess.com/ sells awesome FPGA kits for cheap. you can get a xilinx SpartanII with VGA-out and PS/2 keyboard jack and an 8042 to control it. 10:09:46 Oooooh. 10:09:49 Cheap? 10:10:24 http://www.avrfreaks.net/Tools/showtools.php?ToolID=115 10:10:40 $150 gets you a 10k-gate FPGA, 8MByte SDRAM, VGA-out, 7-seg LED, CPLD, 128KByte Flash. 10:10:46 There's the kit - it has a distributer link to find where to buy. 10:10:49 http://www.xess.com/prod027.php3 10:11:06 wait. i'm sorry. SpartanII is 50k-gate :) 10:11:08 proteusguy: Thanks :) 10:11:13 Hmmm... 10:11:19 The cheapest one is not in stock, bah :P 10:11:23 Costs $120 10:11:29 The AVR is a RISC computer and almost always gets one instruction per cycle which makes it a very nice performer. 10:11:42 yah. i think they are discontinuing that one. 10:12:06 $150 for one that is 4x larger is not a bad deal though:) 10:12:09 Wow! These things got an awful lot of RAM. 10:12:13 Hehe. 10:12:28 Robert: well realize it has VGA-out. you are going to use a big hunk of RAM as a framebuffer. 10:12:29 What's the name of that? SpartanII? 10:12:41 XS-50 is the $150 one. 10:12:47 Hehe. 10:13:01 spartanII is the name of the xilinx fpga on that board. 10:13:20 OK. 10:13:25 What's an FPGA? 10:13:58 1 mbit flash... that makes hell of a Forth dictionary :) 10:13:58 field programmable gate array. 10:14:28 How are the boards programmed? 10:14:38 Do I have to have a separate programmer? 10:14:51 robert, you write a "program" in verilog(pascal-like) or VHLD(ada-like) 10:15:01 no. this one you plug into a parallel port to program i believe. 10:15:10 OK, cool. 10:15:22 Can't I code in machine code? 10:15:26 and then you build the code and it produces the logic gates it needs 10:15:31 robert, there is no machine code here. 10:15:36 it's not a CPU 10:15:42 What is it? 10:15:44 it's a programmable circuit. 10:15:57 What kind of code does it accept then? 10:15:58 you would normally write a small cpu in vhdl or verilog. 10:16:14 robert, it accepts an array of what each "cell" does. 10:16:29 the "compiler" just takes your code and tries to route the circuits through the chip 10:16:46 Hmmm 10:16:50 I don't quite understand. 10:17:11 Robert - gate arrays are something you'll want to get into later but not as your first play with embedded stuff. 10:17:13 it's kinda neat cuz you can take whatever you write for it. and then have a xerography printed of it and they can burn it straight onto ICs at the factory. 10:17:41 Oh. 10:17:48 Well, I'll check proteusguy's link then. 10:17:48 Robert, basically it's like a wad of logic gates. but you use a high-level language to generate the gates. and it builds a circuit on the chip. 10:17:51 Gate arrays are just ways for you to design/build your own chip. Which is pretty cool. 10:18:07 Heh, nice. 10:18:11 it's apparently not that hard to do something simple. the only hard part is if you have timing bugs. 10:18:29 Those sound evil. 10:18:45 I know you hang out on the #asm channel and you will be able to get a program running on your AVR board within a few hours of getting the box in the mail. 10:18:45 oh they are:) 10:19:08 proteusguy: Hehe :) 10:19:11 those microcontroller boards are a load of fun. 10:19:47 yeah they are - and AVR's go for not much more than a PIC when you want to build your final device. 10:20:36 yah. my EE friend is always trying to get me to use Atmel stuff instead of Scenix or Microchip. I'm not sure why he's a big fan of them, i have yet to try them out though. 10:20:53 Hmmmm... 10:21:11 proteusguy: Do I need anything else than that board? No programmer? 10:22:24 That board is a programmer and talks to your host computers parallel port (or serial) with a very nice free development system under windows. Some people have written a linux support system as well. 10:23:06 It also has 8 buttons and leds for testing and plenty of plugs for your own stuff. Everything can be routed to just about everywhere. 10:23:39 Cool! 10:23:53 I got Windows on a computer, so that shouldn't be a problem. 10:23:55 Check out the .pdf literature on the site I posted and you'll see the details. Remarkably nice setup for a very low price. The architecture of the chip is very clean. 10:24:07 Yes, I'm reading one of the PDFs now. 10:24:16 Enjoy... :-) 10:24:21 $80 is quite cheap. 10:24:54 Hmmm 10:25:13 It only says it has sockets for different amtel chips. 10:25:24 Do I have to buy those separate? 10:29:00 They cost about $15 each here. 10:29:09 (ATmega163) 10:29:14 * Robert checks other ones. 10:30:06 I think it comes with one. 10:30:29 OK. 10:30:33 I'll check that out. 10:30:48 Hm, what device would you recommend? 10:31:46 There's a gazallion of them to choose from. 10:31:55 Really just gotta play with them... 10:33:03 OK :) 10:33:10 * Robert picks a few. 10:33:36 From a programmer's perspective the coding's the same - just different memory and device options. 10:34:42 OK, nice. 10:34:56 Hmm, some of them got a really nice amount of RAM/flash. 10:35:07 Yes they do - remarkably so... :-) 10:35:29 Make's it easy for us software guys to get sloppy with our prototypes... 10:37:02 I saw one with 1/2 kB of flash, and 1 kB of RAM. 10:37:15 That's enough for some Forth :) 10:38:50 My last "home forth" project was the 6809 on a Heathkit Hero-1 robot in 1986. I think we had 16k RAM. 10:43:05 Okay. 10:43:53 Well, with this..ehm..quite limited space, I think I'll write most code in assembly rather than high-level forth definitions ;) 10:44:13 Don't you think 1kB would be enough? 10:44:19 I think you can afford the bigger chip. 10:44:25 Uhm. 10:44:27 Enough to do what? 10:44:39 I think that's the biggest chip that board supports. 10:44:47 ATmega163 10:44:50 hmm?? hold on 10:44:54 Wait a few secs 10:45:52 "*The device is supported throgh ISP programming or external target or through the STK501 expantion module." 10:45:56 What does that mean? 10:46:06 * Robert english no good speek :-( 10:46:24 And on top of that, my spacebar key is almost broken. 10:46:32 * Robert will switch keyboard soon. 10:47:53 There's a seperate daughter board you buy (501 kit) that allows you to plugin the other chips. However the 500 kit directly supports the AtMega323 I think. 10:49:00 Hmm 10:49:06 They don't have any of those. 10:49:15 How much RAM/flash does the 323 have? 10:49:51 Don't have any of what? 10:50:17 I think 2KSRAM & 32k flash & 1k EEPROM 10:51:06 ELFA, my local electronics shop. 10:51:22 They don't have any ATmega323. 10:51:23 Hmm 10:51:37 Well, that's the double amount of the 163 10:51:39 oic - that could be a problem. I'd order from DigiKey. 10:51:50 Where are you located? 10:51:52 Where can they ship from? 10:51:59 Sweden, near Stockholm. 10:52:35 Cool! They have a 2MB flash card on the board. 10:52:44 Then I guess the storage isn't much problem. 10:53:15 Hrm. 10:53:54 1 kB of RAM, do you think that is enough if I got unlimited DataFlash(R)? 10:55:36 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 10:56:56 Hi Kitanin. 10:57:19 Hi. 10:59:28 * Kitanin wishes his employers would let him run the mail server, so it actually worked on occasion... 11:00:36 ;) 11:02:15 Although the fact that they've turned validation into a halting problem fascinates me... 11:05:05 We get signal! What you say? All your bandwidth... 11:10:31 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:19:08 * Kitanin could wirewrap a faster mail server than the one he's pulling email from... 11:56:38 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:56:39 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:57:37 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 11:58:40 mrreach! 11:58:46 ltns :) 11:58:51 hihi! 11:58:55 how are you? 11:59:16 not too bad, ive made a start on the isforth assembler 11:59:22 but im semit stuck again :P 11:59:27 semi 11:59:31 cool ... erm ... not cool 11:59:58 which intel processor are you targeting? 12:00:12 well ive dropped it for now, im find that if im stuck and go away when i come back i got it all figured out 12:00:24 i want 386 to p6 plus fpu, mmx, sse 12:00:28 yep, often involving a rewrite 12:00:51 heh, no wonder you're stuck @:^> 12:01:42 *HUGE* instruction set, and irregular 12:02:10 well i might need to change things a little but i dont think ill need a rewrite, ive not got enough yet 12:02:16 * MrReach hands I440r some ImmodiumAD(R) 12:02:23 no actually, its VERY regular 12:02:36 oh? ok 12:02:40 but NOBODY (including intel) wants you to know that 12:03:02 well, if intel published the opcodes the way they actually WERE, you wouldnt have ANY problems understanding them 12:03:28 cool ... that'll certainly make things easier for you 12:03:45 prolly, i still have my work cut out for me tho :) 12:04:31 you gonna do the P4+ microops, too? 12:04:54 err p4+ ? 12:05:20 wasn't it the P4 that started the alternate machine code set? 12:05:49 oh 12:06:00 as in new encodings for existing opcodes ? 12:06:41 well, as I understand it (and I might be wrong) ... one of the Pentium chips started a move towards RISC processing 12:07:04 hrm 12:07:19 where a specific escape in the machine code would cause all furthor memory to be interprested as RISC instructions 12:07:37 hrm ill hafta research that 12:07:38 am I way off in left field? 12:07:56 not sure heh 12:08:17 maybe I'm thinking of the internal RISC pipeline decoders 12:08:39 but I seem to recall an escape that changed the instruction set altogether 12:09:06 well if theres an 'alternate' i may support it in the future but to begin with prolly not 12:09:17 have you been thinking about optimisers and instuction interleaving and whatnot? 12:09:44 it's hella hard to write optimised code by hand, you know 12:10:00 nope :) 12:10:12 i disagree with optimizing at the instruction level 12:10:19 * MrReach nods. 12:10:22 its silly realy, 12:10:28 you get 2% improvements 12:10:40 oh, no, not at all 12:10:47 optimize your algorithms and you get 80% improvements or better 12:10:58 you can get 400% improvments (4x speed) 12:11:25 yes, algorithymic optimisations are more effective 12:11:55 well it depents on what algorithm you started with heh 12:12:09 you could get 1000% improvements :P 12:12:18 you're aware that if you order your instructions correctly, you can perform up to 5 instructions simultaneously, right? 12:12:42 nope, dont realy care at this point :) 12:12:51 but if you order them incorrectly, you get pipeline stalls that execute only one instruction at a time 12:12:52 isforth is DEFINATLY breaking all the rules anyway 12:13:16 i.e. instructions and data in same pages 12:13:46 * MrReach nods 12:14:05 yeah, it's a real braintwister when you get into it 12:14:27