00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.22
01:08:20 <Robert> : NEXT ( -- )
01:08:20 <Robert>   IP dup @ !> W              \ w = [ip]
01:08:20 <Robert>   4+ !> IP                   \ ip = ip + 4
01:08:20 <Robert>   W @ if                     \ is w pointing to a high-level word?
01:08:20 <Robert>     IP rpush                 \ push ip to return stack
01:08:22 <Robert>     W 4+ !> IP               \ ip = w + 4
01:08:25 <Robert>   then
01:08:27 <Robert>     W @ execute              \ execute low-level word
01:08:30 <Robert>   else
01:08:32 <Robert>   ;
01:08:35 <Robert> Why does that segfault isforth?
01:08:38 <Robert> (When it's compiling, not executing)
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01:24:43 <marekb> better example : x if then else ;
01:25:22 <marekb> it happens because of resolving references by word else
01:26:40 <marekb> standalone else segfaults too
01:30:58 <Robert> Darn.
01:31:08 <Robert> Thanks marek.
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04:22:32 <Robert> Hi cleverdra.
05:07:15 <cleverdra> hello Robert.
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05:34:29 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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08:00:43 <futhin> oh no! sif came back!
08:02:25 <onetom> hi futhin
08:02:50 <onetom> imgaine or not im stucked w parsing words :(
08:03:18 <futhin> eh
08:03:20 <onetom> i cant even read the next word in gforth
08:03:21 <futhin> are you sure? :P
08:03:44 <onetom> tho, gforth has an own word NAME just 4 this purpose
08:03:48 * Robert tries to write his own little Forth.
08:03:51 <Robert> (In Forth :-)
08:04:01 <futhin> robert: did you change it to IF ELSE THEN ?
08:04:08 <Robert> Heh, yeah.
08:04:10 <Robert> Stupid mistale.
08:04:12 <onetom> but the newline stops it reading further
08:04:12 <Robert> mistake*
08:04:17 <futhin> robert: yup ;)
08:04:48 <onetom> :)) yeah, that was very vitty
08:05:05 <onetom> witty
08:05:42 <futhin> onetom: why can't you avoid parsing?
08:05:43 <Robert> Uhmm..
08:05:53 <Robert> How would I convert a whole document to lower-case?
08:06:41 <onetom> futhin: think of the later example
08:06:49 <onetom> Robert: use vi
08:07:14 <onetom> Robert: ask the help sys about lower-case
08:07:42 <cleverdra> #! /usr/bin/gforth-fast
08:07:43 <cleverdra> : lowercase-char dup [char] A [ char Z 1+ ]L within if bl + then ; : unixkey key dup 0< if bye then ; : lowercase begin unixkey lowercase-char emit ; lowercase
08:07:44 <Robert> Uhm.
08:07:50 <Robert> How do I ask that?
08:08:01 <futhin> : convertthefile readinfilechar dup 71 > = if 31 xor then ;
08:08:03 <futhin> there!
08:08:05 <onetom> Robert: or write it in a C 1liner while(c=getchar()!=EOF)putchar(c);
08:08:06 <futhin> my code ownz!
08:08:13 <futhin> cleverdra:  naw, my code is better!
08:08:14 <Robert> cleverdra: Nice, but I don't need it in Forth ;)
08:08:17 <Robert> hehe.
08:08:20 <cleverdra> futhin - your code is *wrong*
08:08:30 <Robert> I wanted to know if there was any easy solution.
08:08:37 <futhin> cleverda:  only cause i forgot the numbers
08:08:37 <Robert> Might as well do it by hand ;)
08:08:45 <futhin> noooo robert!
08:08:48 <futhin> easy solution
08:08:52 <futhin> let me check the numbers
08:09:08 <futhin> i have some assembler code that i made myself somewhere for converting cases
08:09:12 <onetom> or use tr!
08:09:52 <cleverdra> futhin - there is a single bit of difference between a lowercase number and an uppercase number.  You can forget numbers; that's fine, but can you forget binary number theory?
08:10:00 <onetom> cleverdra: could u help me how can i read numbers from the input stream?
08:10:26 <cleverdra> onetom - 0. bl parse >number 2drop drop
08:10:29 * cleverdra shudders.
08:11:18 <onetom> but bl parse expects a blank doesnt it?
08:11:45 <onetom> imean an explicit space (20h)
08:12:40 <futhin> : convertthefile hex c@ dup 41 > 51 < = if 20 xor then ;
08:12:45 <futhin> something like that
08:12:47 <futhin> er
08:12:50 <futhin> 5A
08:12:50 <cleverdra> onetom - bl is a constant.
08:12:59 <futhin> if it is between 41 and 5A  it is a capital letter
08:13:05 <futhin> so you test that its between that
08:13:07 <cleverdra> blech.
08:13:10 <futhin> and then if it is, you xor it!
08:13:40 <cleverdra> xoring is wasteful.  [ 20 negate ] literal and
08:14:05 <futhin> well that other code up there that you pasted doesn't look very understandable :/
08:14:40 <futhin> it's easier to do it with 41 and 5A  and just have a comment saying what they are :P
08:14:55 <futhin> i didn't know xoring is wasteful
08:14:56 <cleverdra> Nuh-uh!
08:15:01 <cleverdra> futhin - I don't know if it is.
08:15:14 <cleverdra> futhin - probably not.
08:16:59 <futhin> oh shit, gtg!
08:17:04 <cleverdra> oh, bye.
08:18:38 <onetom> cleverdra: :( bl parse only worx 4 blocks where every whitespace is verbatim space
08:19:08 <onetom> : x bl parse type ; x<tab>1<tab>2 3
08:19:12 <onetom> prints
08:19:18 <onetom> <tab>1<tab>2
08:19:32 <cleverdra> Well, yes.  You just said that you wanted an explicit space!
08:19:43 <cleverdra> For that, I'd suggest a state machine.
08:20:23 <onetom> no, i was complaining about it only can handle explicit space
08:20:26 <cleverdra> : x 0 parse number> ( a -- n a' ) drop ;
08:20:51 <cleverdra> So?  Well, OK.
08:21:32 * onetom scrapes his head ....
08:22:21 <onetom> sorry cant see the point in the example above
08:23:09 <onetom> and gforth dont have number> just number >number number? snumber ...
08:23:46 <cleverdra> number> is what you'd made.
08:23:55 <onetom> but PARSE and SCAN (used by PARSE) doesnt seem complex
08:24:07 <onetom> im gonna copy&modify those
08:24:18 <cleverdra> Of course not; that's why it does -- ack, 'copy&modify'?  Gross.
08:26:14 <cleverdra> : find-whitespace begin count is-whitespace? until ; : skip-whitespace begin count is-whitespace? 0= until ; : whitespace-parse skip-whitespace dup find-whitespace over - ;
08:26:46 <cleverdra> s"  123<tab>  " whitespace-parse type
08:26:56 <cleverdra> well, DROP WHITESPACE-PARSE
08:30:13 <onetom> not bad... thy
08:30:15 <onetom> thx
08:30:51 <onetom> but the problem wasnt w the parse from a string but parsing from stream
08:31:13 <onetom> coz >number worx just fine on a string
08:31:21 <cleverdra> 0 parse drop whitespace-parse, assuming that it exists.  This is where a state machine would help, as I said.
08:32:28 <onetom> still cant understand what kind of statemachine do u imagine
08:32:39 <onetom> and what is that 0 parse ?(
08:33:37 <onetom> eeeeh, how can i enter tab into gforth?
08:36:58 <onetom> mmm, parse is also wrong it cant skip line boundary
08:37:48 <onetom> (now i c why do blocks r far more simple :)
08:38:14 <cleverdra> parse by definition can't, and blocks have the same problem; the difference is that in gforth each line is considered as a block.
08:39:04 <onetom> ah, umean parse cant cross block boundary?
08:42:50 <cleverdra> No, it can't.
08:43:29 <cleverdra> Well, unless it can.  A naive implementation certainly could, if blocks were subsequently placed.
08:43:31 <onetom> and what makes it stop?
08:43:50 <onetom> c
08:43:50 <cleverdra> onetom - the same thing that makes parse stop on a line in gforth, no doubt.
08:43:58 <onetom> :))
08:44:21 <onetom> k, thx 4 clarifying this stuff
08:46:43 <onetom> what do u know about block support in gforth
08:47:08 <onetom> and what 4th do u use under linux?
09:17:26 <OrngeTide> forth and C don't really go together, which is why i think there isn't any good forths for unix.
09:17:45 <OrngeTide> s/isn't/aren't
09:18:39 <OrngeTide> well back to work. l8r
09:18:49 <onetom> could u explain it a bit more?
09:20:23 <OrngeTide> oh. well C uses a linker and forth uses a dictionary. they are two totally different and incompatible things.
09:20:41 <OrngeTide> so if you want to use the libraries on a unix system in your forth you need to use a linked.
09:20:44 <OrngeTide> s/linked/linker
09:20:57 <OrngeTide> and a forth with a linker is strange indeed.
09:21:17 <OrngeTide> although a dynamic linker is not that strange because you could convert those into dictionary words pretty easily.
09:21:52 <OrngeTide> although in C dynamic linker libraries you can't just scan for all symbols. you have to look up each symbol individually, so you need to do non-standard stuff to toss that into the dictionary.
09:22:20 <OrngeTide> or just have a word in forth that binds dynamic linker symbols to the dictionary.
09:22:44 <OrngeTide> but the call convention in C is totally different than forth making calling those routines a chore.
09:23:09 <OrngeTide> no matter what, if you call C routines from forth you KNOW it's C routines. if you call Forth routines from C you KNOW it's Forth.
09:24:36 <OrngeTide> well gotta go. have fun.
09:27:21 <onetom> k, thx, bye
09:27:49 <onetom> but despite all the explanation above, u cant state there rnt good C 4thes
09:29:47 <onetom> a 4th isnt bad just because it has support 4 other things
09:30:08 <onetom> what r not easy & efficient 2 access... :/
09:30:40 <onetom> most 4thes r simulated 4th machines (CPUs actually)
09:31:17 <onetom> and there r some levels of simulation
09:31:43 <onetom> u can simulate 4th on top of any CPU and its associated HW env.
09:32:13 <OrngeTide> onetom, my explaination explains exactly why there are no good C forths.
09:32:20 <onetom> and u can simulate 4th on top of an OS too
09:32:26 <OrngeTide> because to be a good forth it has to integrate with the system well.
09:32:34 <OrngeTide> which you cannot do with a real forth.
09:33:05 <onetom> and 4th in asm can integrate much better, huh?
09:33:06 <OrngeTide> and simulating another system ontop of your OS doesn't count. it's like running an emulator for the OS you really wanted ontop of the OS you don't actually want to use.
09:33:25 <OrngeTide> onetom, asm forth running ontop of unix does not integrate any better.
09:33:26 <onetom> the problem is not w C, but that the OS is written in C
09:33:33 <OrngeTide> they all wany to use the standard libraries. so you need a linker.
09:33:38 <OrngeTide> onetom, exactly.
09:33:38 <onetom> and mainly, there IS an OS below 4th
09:34:03 <OrngeTide> unix is so C-centric it's hard to deal with if you aren't doing C.
09:34:14 <onetom> but the 4th itself built on top of all these can still b a nice &
09:34:22 <OrngeTide> i have this problem when i use lisp or scheme as well.
09:34:25 <onetom> clever implementation
09:34:44 <OrngeTide> onetom, not really. because it cannot take advantage of what the OS has to offer.
09:34:50 <OrngeTide> you have to hand-add all the stuff. 
09:34:57 <onetom> WE NEED a fuckin FORTH OS FINALLY!!!
09:35:14 <OrngeTide> so when one does a forth for unix you end up hand adding the support for sockets, the support for X11, the support for curses, and whatever else.
09:35:17 <OrngeTide> onetom: totally.
09:35:36 <OrngeTide> i've had some ideas and sketches on a microkernel forth. (which is probably considered blasphemy by some)
09:35:37 <onetom> just like in any lang, anyway...
09:35:58 <onetom> blasphemy?
09:36:02 <OrngeTide> but instead of doing a universal namespace as part of the filesystem like QNX and Plan 9 do. I was thinking I could do a universal namespace through the dictionary.
09:36:16 <onetom> hmm...
09:36:18 <OrngeTide> onetom, you don't know the word blasphemy?
09:36:28 <onetom> would u share ur plans w us?
09:36:37 <onetom> yes, i dont :)
09:36:46 <onetom> im hungarian, uknow
09:37:06 <OrngeTide> well in QNX or Plan9. and user can attach a filesystem to any directory they have permissions on. and to do a driver you just attach yourself to like /dev/en0 if you wrote an ethernet driver.
09:37:08 <onetom> and cant access my electronic dict @the moment
09:37:19 <OrngeTide> onetom: blasphemy is like insulting one's god.
09:37:44 <onetom> aha, thx
09:38:26 <OrngeTide> i was thinking i could open up communication channels between indepedent forth threads using the dictionary as the namespace to establish the channel.
09:38:48 <OrngeTide> (just calling stuff directly seems effecient but i had a lot of problems with it in vxWorks, especially in the testing phase)
09:39:11 <OrngeTide> when you break stuff into little units that talk through some thin channel you can perform unit testing on the module indepedent of the rest of the system.
09:39:41 <OrngeTide> when you start calling stuff directly you have to either scaffold most of the system to do a module test, and then you wonder if you scaffold is correct. or more often you just test the entire thing as one big lump.
09:39:50 <OrngeTide> and then you're less confident in the system. 
09:40:08 <OrngeTide> plus it's pretty rad as a user just to beable to mount a filesystem in your home directory.
09:40:35 <OrngeTide> like if you had a MUD you could mount a filesystem that had control variables for the mud as well as a completely layed out object database that you could browse as files. etc.
09:41:48 <OrngeTide> or you could have a web browser that just mounted the entire internet as a filesystem in your directory. then cat http//somesite/path/file.txt would let you see the file. and you could use normal shell to manage your ftp site too
09:41:50 * OrngeTide shrugs.
09:41:59 <OrngeTide> so there are obvious advantages to a universal namespace.
09:42:22 <OrngeTide> but getting that idea to forth is hard. some people think forth with blockIO operations and no filesystem is the only way to go. 
09:42:57 <OrngeTide> and with just block IO you can't stack a universal namespace on it unless you just want to share dictionary entries. which is fine for talking to drivers.
09:43:51 <OrngeTide> i haven't decided if i want a filesystem, like a normal filesystem. or if i just want to have a generic relational database instead of a filesystem.
09:44:06 <OrngeTide> then I could use forth-ize SQL commands to query the database. :)
09:47:11 <OrngeTide> "orangedb" FQX-DBSELECT "table A" FQX-TABSELECT BEGIN "pickles" FQX-READ WHILE 3 = IF ." Found 3 pickles" THEN REPEAT 
09:47:16 <OrngeTide> maybe it would look something like that. o
09:47:53 <OrngeTide> or maybe i'd not use a while and i'd just have some sort of construct to deal with walking through all the entries (that would be best incase i'm accessing data over a network)
09:48:08 <OrngeTide> well i have a meeting. seeya.
09:49:18 <onetom> pill
09:49:37 <onetom> imean, just a moment
10:00:31 <onetom> hm.. c... mostly..
10:19:50 <onetom> but dont b too attracted by integrating a relational db into the system
10:20:31 <onetom> because handling of hierarchical data (trees) in a RDB is not 2 convenient
10:21:20 <onetom> just think of "LDAP vs PG" as a user db store...
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10:39:01 <Robert> Hi proteusguy & Kitanin.
10:39:43 <Kitanin> Hey.
10:49:22 <onetom> hi
10:51:02 <onetom> OrngeTide: TILE has a pretty sophisticated interface 2 the OS. it doesnt stop @the EOL ;) and its IO handling is multitask safe...
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11:32:58 <Robert> Hrmmm...
11:33:14 <Robert> Anyone here who wants to see my Forth in Forth? :)
11:33:18 <Robert> It's far from done...
11:33:39 <Robert> At least the VM and word creation/lookup works.
11:33:51 <Robert> Guess I could upload the current version.
11:34:01 <cleverdra> Forth in Forth?  Been done =)
11:34:23 <cleverdra> Yeah, where is it?
11:34:42 <Robert> http://robert.zizi.org/pub/forth.f
11:34:45 <Robert> Like I said, it's not done.
11:34:56 <Robert> And yes, I know self-compiling forths have been written :)
11:35:11 <Robert> This is in 100% forth, so I guess it's kind of slow :P
11:35:44 <Robert> And.. it's written by me, and my algorithms usually are 5 times slower than the most common one, and 20 times slower than the ideal one.
11:36:30 <cleverdra> Why should it be slow, for being 100% Forth?
11:36:47 <Robert> cleverdra: Just look at NEXT (which also includes NEST)...
11:37:17 <cleverdra> ah.  hum.
11:37:21 <Robert> Compare that with the "lodsd / jmp eax" most x86 forths use.
11:37:37 <Robert> "a bit" slower :P
11:37:38 <cleverdra> What are you going to do with this?
11:37:59 <Robert> cleverdra: Print out and clue on my wall... or maybe something even less useful.
11:38:02 <Robert> It's just for fun.
11:38:07 <Robert> glue*
11:38:11 * cleverdra nods.
11:38:39 <Robert> Would be funny if I got it to run itself.
11:40:25 <cleverdra> It'd be a bit of work, but you can write the primitives in Forth, as you are doing =)
11:40:35 <cleverdra> That is, in the external Forth.
11:44:13 <Robert> Yes...
11:44:45 <Robert> I need to find some easy way to write Forth code for the Forth in Forth, heh.
11:44:59 <Robert> That is, I don't want to keep on doing things like:
11:45:11 <Robert>   LAST
11:45:12 <Robert>   0 RET-name ['] RET low-level-word
11:45:12 <Robert>   LAST
11:45:12 <Robert>   0 main-name ::
11:45:12 <Robert>   LAST !> IP
11:45:14 <Robert> etc.
11:45:40 <Robert> So, I'd like to parse the input from IsForth.
11:45:53 * Robert wonders how that could be done.
11:47:34 <cleverdra> I don't quite understand what the problem is, or what you want to do.
11:48:03 <Robert> Uhm.
11:48:13 <Robert> I want to redefine :
11:48:25 <Robert> So I can easily make high-level definitions for my forth.
11:48:47 <Robert> But writing a new "create" would force me to do some parsing.
11:48:52 <onetom> Robert: sure there r 1s interested in ur 4th! :)
11:48:52 <cleverdra> OK.  What's the problem?  You obviously need to use IsForth words for reading, because your Forth doesn't have access to the syscalls any other way.
11:49:07 <Robert> (Reading the next word from the IsForth input)
11:49:33 <cleverdra> Just use <read>, if you don't want to worry about files.
11:49:45 <Robert> Uhm...
11:50:04 <Robert> I want to use the same way as "create" does.
11:50:40 <cleverdra> I don't see how your statement follows from mine, but OK.
11:52:03 <Robert> Sorry for being unclear.
11:52:22 <Robert> What I want to do, is to take a word from the IsForth input.
11:52:44 <Robert> Even if that happens to be from stdin, or from an fload-ed file.
11:54:10 <Robert> I'll be back later.
12:07:44 <onetom> im suffering from the same problem @the moment :)
12:08:02 <onetom> how amateurs r we... <sigh> :)
12:12:34 <onetom> an OS less environment could improve productivity 4 robert and me, i think
12:19:33 <Robert> Hehe :)
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12:45:04 <onetom> btw, what is that !> ?
12:45:16 <I440r> the word !> ?
12:45:18 <I440r> store to
12:45:21 <cleverdra> IsForth's TO
12:45:27 <onetom> ah, c
12:45:34 <I440r> no. ans TO is a bastardizaion of STORE to
12:45:42 <I440r> TO doesnt say a fucking thing
12:45:53 <I440r> 10 to foo is BAD
12:45:57 <I440r> 10 !> foo is better
12:45:57 <onetom> but it looks like TO
12:46:04 <I440r> it says what its doing
12:46:15 <onetom> s odont say NO. it IS the isforth variation of TO
12:46:17 <I440r> TO is a GAY ansi name for STORE to
12:46:31 <onetom> it is
12:46:33 <onetom> and?
12:46:36 <onetom> who cares
12:46:46 <cleverdra> I440r - you're putting the horse before the cart.  TO came first; there was no !> that they bastardized.
12:46:50 <I440r> : !> ' >body ! ;
12:47:05 <I440r> cleverdra BULLSHIT
12:47:07 <onetom> yours looks similar in sense of word order
12:47:21 <I440r> ive been using FPC for YEARS before ans even existed
12:47:26 <I440r> i ALWAYS had a STORE TO
12:47:33 <cleverdra> oh?  OK.  Sorry.
12:47:40 <onetom> anyway ' existed the very 1st time ;p
12:48:32 <I440r> TO is a fucked up word. it makes NO sense what so ever. its just a means of simplifying the language for the lamers who cant get '!' is store and '>' is to
12:49:19 <I440r> 99% of ans forth is fucking all over Forth to make it easier for lame ass c scripters
12:49:33 <I440r> in case you cant tell, ans pisses me off :)
12:52:13 <onetom> what doesnt explain why do u have 2 deny ovious truthes like: the effect of !> and TO is the same... :/
12:53:02 <I440r> because i refuse to accept TO as a valid 'FORTH' word
12:54:05 <onetom> do u know the argument scketch from monty python? ,p
12:54:19 <I440r> yes :)
12:54:40 <onetom> "argument is not a simple contradicton"...
13:17:41 <Robert> Hey I440r :)
13:17:53 <Robert> onetom: I was trying to write a little Forth in Forth :)
13:18:04 <cleverdra> onetom - it is so!
13:18:12 <Robert> Check my ugly code at robert.zizi.org/pub/forth.f if you're bored enough :P
13:18:23 <onetom> done
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13:20:14 <onetom> 1 '
13:20:14 <onetom> dup
13:20:14 <onetom> execute
13:20:14 <onetom> .s
13:20:14 <onetom> [2] \1\1
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13:21:04 <onetom> so TILE skips EOL correctly :) yessss
13:21:18 <onetom> im gonna use tile 4 the pnm experiments
13:27:18 <onetom> <quote>
13:27:24 <onetom> if i were a window
13:27:43 <onetom> i would b that size
13:28:06 <onetom> so the whole world
13:28:23 <onetom> could became visible
13:29:20 <onetom> with understandting eyes
13:29:29 <onetom> they would look through me
13:29:48 <onetom> i would b happy
13:30:15 <onetom> if i had shown everything (yet)
13:30:35 <onetom> </quote>
13:31:01 <onetom> http://www.konczzsuzsa.hu/konczzsuzsa_de/kottak.html
13:31:20 <onetom> Wenn ich eine Rose wäre
13:31:53 <onetom> 4 the curious. its a beautiful hungarian non-folk song
13:31:57 <Robert> Ich bin eine Rose.
13:32:19 <onetom> but it doesnt fall far from a folksong
13:32:26 <onetom> Robert: ? :)
13:32:32 <Robert> Hehe, just kidding.
13:33:04 <onetom> and showin everybody: "Ich sprache Deutch" ;p
13:38:50 <onetom> have u found TILE?
13:39:22 <onetom> ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/compilers/native/unix/tile*
13:39:45 <Robert> Ich spreche Deutsch :P
13:39:48 <onetom> u have 2 delete a line from it. gcc will tell which 1
13:39:48 <Robert> Uhm.
13:39:57 <Robert> I'll check.
13:40:10 <OrngeTide> i really have to finish my forth. it's leet. :P
13:40:41 <Robert> :)
13:40:47 <Robert> What's special with it?
13:40:54 <OrngeTide> there is a mini parser written in C, but by default it looks for the dictionary entry for a real parser to execute. so you can write the parser in forth. the parser buffer is also a dictionary word that exists on the heap.
13:41:09 <OrngeTide> robert, it's pretty ordinary. except i hope to get static types in it.
13:41:19 <Robert> What is that=
13:41:20 <Robert> What is that?
13:41:39 <OrngeTide> and i can stack dictionaries and use them in my online game server. so each object of the game is a forth environment instance with it's dictionary built ontop of the object that it inherited.
13:41:44 <OrngeTide> what is what?
13:42:16 <Robert> Static types.
13:42:55 <OrngeTide> oh. basically i would write 3 dict entries for + .. they would all be labeled "+". but one would be for ( u u -- u ) another for ( d d -- d ) and another for ( f f -- f )
13:42:59 <OrngeTide> instead of doing + +D +F
13:43:20 <OrngeTide> it has a type stack at compile/interpret time to determine which version of + it needs.
13:43:50 <OrngeTide> of course you can build your own types too. which is good if you happen to have a pointer to a record/structure/object
13:44:17 <OrngeTide> and it will refuse to do operations on types it does not understand which fixes 99% of the stack errors out there.
13:44:38 <OrngeTide> like if you had:  u f   on the stack. then you did + .. it would not find a match for it and tell you.
13:44:56 <OrngeTide> you'd have to explicitly convert the f to a u. or the u to an f then do +. 
13:44:59 <OrngeTide> StrongForth does this.
13:45:19 <Robert> Cool.
13:45:36 <Robert> Keep on working then :)
13:45:44 <OrngeTide> except i want to take it a step beyond StrongForth and do an object-oriented system with it too. (although an extremely thin and bare minimumal OO)
13:46:15 <Robert> onetom: Got it to compile & work :)
13:46:27 <Robert> Hehe.
13:46:27 <OrngeTide> i don't like fat stuff. although some of my friends say a type checking forth is fat. *shrug* it's just an extra stack that sits in the interpreter only so it shouldn't be too bad. the worse part is encoding the types in the dictionary.
13:46:34 <OrngeTide> is TILE good?
13:46:46 <Robert> I've tried it for 5 seconds :)
13:46:49 <OrngeTide> ahaha. okay:)
13:46:59 <OrngeTide> is it designed to be a stand-alone forth or an embedded forth?
13:47:31 <Robert> I think they describe it as a portable C implementation of the F83 standard.
13:47:40 <OrngeTide> ah.
13:50:15 <onetom> OrngeTide: ah, welcome back! have u seen TILE? its better than any implementation ive seen ever.
13:50:42 <onetom> OrngeTide: its so clear, reasonably documented and has good examples
13:51:04 <onetom> OrngeTide: tho, its slow :) this is the price of all the above
13:51:50 <OrngeTide> onetom, what kind of license is on it?
13:51:52 <onetom> it also has a recognizer word what is userdefinable
13:52:00 <OrngeTide> what's a recognizer word?
13:52:04 <onetom> who the fuck cares? :)
13:52:17 <OrngeTide> i care. i can't touch anything that is GPL.
13:52:19 <onetom> its some free license anyway
13:52:27 <onetom> why?
13:52:39 <onetom> your religion prohibits it?
13:52:42 <OrngeTide> because GPL is viral and will encumber my business.
13:53:07 <OrngeTide> i can run my stuff on a GPL OS and use GPL compilers and devel tools. but I cannot use GPL libraries in my software.
13:53:14 <onetom> otherwise u dont have 2 touch it. its also satisfatory 2 have a look at it ;p
13:53:28 <OrngeTide> onetom, yah. pygmy is still my favorite forth.
13:53:34 <onetom> tile is rather an abandonware anyway..
13:53:38 <OrngeTide> ah.
13:54:13 <OrngeTide> i'll check it out when i get home from work then.
13:54:16 <onetom> its an F83 implementation..
13:55:19 <onetom> 1991 -- jeeezuz... its an abandonware isnt it, huh? :)
13:55:52 <OrngeTide> ATLAST is even older. it's public domain though which was why i attempted to modify it to fit into my product. :)
13:56:13 <OrngeTide> it'd work too except forth gave me an idea that put my architecture on it's head.
13:56:26 <OrngeTide> so ATLAST could only work with my old architecture, not my new one:(
13:58:19 <OrngeTide> well i gotta go. seeya!
13:59:00 <onetom> k
13:59:01 <onetom> bye
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14:22:30 <Robert> Forth-svensken :)
14:22:48 <jamc> hmm :)
14:24:34 * Robert klappar jamc på huvudet.
14:25:23 * jamc parerar
14:26:42 * Kitanin wishes he had his Swedish-English dictionary handy...
14:27:07 <Robert> * Robert pats jamc.
14:27:36 <Robert> I'm your little dictionary :)
14:28:22 <Kitanin> That's what I thought you'd said.  I wasn't sure, though.  It's rather difficult to learn a language with noöne around to practice on...
14:29:35 <Robert> Where are you from?
14:30:31 <Robert> Hmm... one little thing, how can you make a process sleep for a certain amount of time, without wasting 100% CPU power?
14:30:42 <Kitanin> Canada.  But I keep running into Swedish people with alarming regularity, so I figure it would be polite to learn the language.  :-)
14:30:55 <jamc> Robert: which platform?
14:30:55 <onetom> Robert: sleep?
14:30:57 <Robert> Hehe.
14:31:03 <Robert> jamc: NetBSD.
14:31:16 <onetom> usleep() eg
14:31:19 <Robert> OK.
14:31:21 <jamc> Robert: man 3 sleep
14:31:23 <Robert> Thanks...
14:31:24 <Robert> Hehe.
14:31:30 <onetom> yeah thats it
14:31:39 <Robert> Just wanted to make sure they didn't eat all my CPU power.
14:31:40 <onetom> Robert: whats up w tile?
14:31:57 <onetom> im playing w parsing
14:32:10 <Robert> onetom: I haven't played more with irt.
14:32:11 <Robert> it
14:32:13 <onetom> but WORD does strange things
14:32:22 <onetom> u should ;)
14:32:27 <Robert> Hehe.
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14:58:19 <onetom> ia32? ;)
14:58:59 <a32> random typing
14:59:05 <onetom> ah, c
14:59:15 <onetom> and what wind has blown u here?
14:59:17 <a32> altho that doesn't hurt <g>
14:59:22 <a32> hm, the robert wind
14:59:27 <onetom> loll
14:59:40 <a32> we were discussing good chans to idle in for amusement <g>
15:00:19 <onetom> robert, du bist ein winde too ;)
15:00:32 <a32> winde?
15:00:34 <Robert> Was ist das?
15:00:54 <onetom> its just deutch-ized version of wind :)
15:01:01 <Robert> Where are you from, a32?
15:01:05 <Robert> onetom: Deutsch*
15:01:18 <onetom> yup
15:01:29 <a32> Robert: hard question
15:01:40 <a32> i live in switzerland atm
15:01:47 <a32> you?
15:02:07 <Robert> Sweden :D
15:02:19 <Robert> Dumb americans would beleive we were in the same country ;)
15:02:24 <a32> thought so somehow
15:02:28 <onetom> is it a formal greeting, or what?
15:02:28 <a32> naw, they think i'm in china
15:02:28 <Robert> So...where were you born? What languages do you speak?
15:02:36 <onetom> u know eachother dont u?
15:02:38 <a32> canada, english and broken stuff
15:02:42 <a32> onetom: not really
15:02:46 <Robert> onetom: Since 5 minutes, yes. :P
15:02:47 <a32> we met today
15:03:22 <onetom> ah, c
15:03:38 <onetom> how attractive can u b, robert ;)
15:03:41 <a32> where broken stuff is primarily italian
15:04:01 <onetom> u tempt every lost soul 2 #forth :D
15:04:09 <Robert> Hehe.
15:04:13 <Robert> I just pasted my /whois :P
15:04:18 <Robert> He was asking for channels.
15:04:19 <Robert> So...
15:04:25 <onetom> loll
15:04:32 <onetom> good job
15:04:38 <Robert> Since everyone has to love forth, he joined this chan. :P
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15:27:56 --- quit: jamc ("/me goes to bed")
15:37:36 <onetom> hahaaaa:
15:37:37 <onetom> : x 65 word dup (string) $length type ;
15:37:37 <onetom> x asdsaA
15:37:37 <onetom> asdsa
15:38:22 <Robert> Yes?
15:41:36 <onetom> it parses!! and i can access the parsed string
15:41:51 <onetom> in an addr count form
15:42:51 <onetom> how does c malloc works compared 2 pascal getmem or new?
15:43:34 <onetom> does malloc use a global OS heap? is it limited somehow?
15:44:19 <Robert> Uhm...
15:44:23 <onetom> how much memory is occupied beside the requested amount?
15:44:32 <Robert> I think it allocated new space when needed.
15:44:36 <Robert> No idea.
15:44:46 <onetom> great..
15:44:46 <Robert> Don't know how the Pascal routines work.
15:45:05 <onetom> then, tell me how does the C 1s do ? ;)
15:45:34 <Robert> Heh, I don't really know.
15:45:39 <Robert> Read the glibc sources ;)
15:45:52 <onetom> can u redefine a function in C?
15:46:06 <Robert> No.
15:46:15 <onetom> eg, what if i want 2 redefine the meaning of malloc, eg?
15:46:33 <Robert> Oh...
15:46:37 <Robert> Damn.
15:46:49 <onetom> im not allowed 2 say #define malloc(x) my_malloc(x) ?
15:46:50 <Robert> Seems like SSH wants to fight.
15:46:53 <onetom> am i
15:47:03 <Robert> Uhm..
15:49:07 <Robert> Don't thi
15:49:09 <Robert> nk so.
15:50:22 <onetom> infact... pascal allows either 2 redefine the IDs of the system unit nor the reserved words, obviously...
15:50:44 <onetom> hey, im not right!
15:51:07 <onetom> ican say myunit.getmem()
15:51:14 <onetom> or with myunit do begin
15:51:21 <onetom>   getmem()
15:51:28 <onetom>   system.getmem()
15:51:30 <onetom> end
15:52:21 <onetom> ithink im big time satisfied w pascal :)
15:59:15 <Robert> Sorry, having problems here
15:59:16 <Robert> Bye
16:00:45 <onetom> :( bye
16:01:12 <onetom> "houston, we have a problem"
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17:15:37 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:16:44 <futhin> heya tbw
17:16:49 <futhin> onetom: you there
17:16:52 <futhin> OrngeTide: you there?
17:17:21 <futhin> what magic are you conjuring of late TheBlueWizard? :P
17:17:21 <TheBlueWizard> hiya futhin
17:17:48 <TheBlueWizard> so far this week: I just conjured up a lot of exhaustion :(
17:18:17 <futhin> heh, i did better!
17:18:43 <TheBlueWizard> heh
17:18:51 <futhin> i conjured exhaustion, back problems, muscle exhaustion, brain damage, etc ;)
17:19:29 <futhin> eh, i'm gonna leave this job as soon as i can find a different one
17:19:51 <futhin> the problem with this job is you work for 8 hours and then you are nonfunctional for the rest of the day mostly :/
17:19:55 <TheBlueWizard> by the way, thanks to a certain idiot-worker, I got locked out of my office room!  I will have to wait til tomorrow then I can scream at that dork for changing the cipher lock w/o telling me! :)
17:20:23 <futhin> slap him silly!
17:20:27 <futhin> kung fu style!
17:20:55 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: tell me about it (re: 8 hours then get nonfunctional...actually things has gotten worse lately at work...new stupid policies)
17:21:08 <TheBlueWizard> actually it is a she
17:21:21 <futhin> if i had a desk job, i'd daytrade at work!
17:21:48 <TheBlueWizard> can't daytrade :]
17:22:05 <futhin> yeah you can
17:22:15 <futhin> all you need is a computer that is decently fast and connects to the internet
17:22:24 <futhin> and 5 minutes of free time every hour
17:23:02 * TheBlueWizard has ZERO knowledge about stock buying/selling
17:24:04 <futhin> i read 20+ books on the subject but haven't actually done it yet
17:24:15 <futhin> i did some paper trading tho
17:24:43 <futhin> but not enough to establish any kind of record  i.e am i good or am i bad?
17:25:12 <futhin> i've read some amazing articles about money management & risk control
17:25:16 <TheBlueWizard> heh...I never had done any paper trading either :)
17:25:40 <futhin> can you believe that _only_ 1 out of the 20+ books i read discussed money management and risk control fundamentals?!?!?
17:25:48 <futhin> it's some rare shit
17:25:59 <futhin> most people on the stock market are suckers
17:26:00 <futhin> sheep
17:26:14 <TheBlueWizard> somehow I'm not too surprised :)
17:28:12 <futhin> i've gone to day trading places on irc and talked to people
17:28:18 <futhin> and so many of them jump in right away
17:28:42 <futhin> i'm telling them about the books i recommend and they're like "yeah yeah yeah! is TYC a good stock to buy right now?"
17:29:10 <futhin> and i'll go look at TYC, and be like "hmmm, it'll go up in the next two days and then go down"
17:29:11 <futhin> :P
17:30:00 <TheBlueWizard> heh...beware...there are some who'd use chat room to pull a pump-n-dump on stocks...they're EVIL!
17:32:14 * TheBlueWizard trusts that futhin understands what a pump-n-dump is
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17:36:20 <futhin> yeah i do
17:36:23 <futhin> gtg for a bit
17:36:25 <futhin> bbl
17:37:45 <TheBlueWizard> k
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17:38:09 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Soap` again
17:39:43 <futhin> so few people understand how to check the fundamentals of the company,  you can read the SEC filings the company makes online, for free
17:41:04 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...though you'd have to know how to make sense of the filings...and I'm sure a few filings can be deceitful...like Enron's ;)
17:42:06 <I440r> tbw!
17:44:31 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!!
17:44:41 <I440r> :)
17:44:46 <TheBlueWizard> so what's happenin'?
17:45:26 <I440r> well the power supply in my server went bad, ordered a complte new case (cheaper than any power supplies i found)
17:45:26 <I440r> just got it back up and running
17:45:51 <TheBlueWizard> ah...cool
17:46:32 <TheBlueWizard> tho' I bet it set you back several days worth of work (whatever that is...)
17:47:29 <I440r> no because all my work is on the laptop hehe
17:48:45 <TheBlueWizard> ah...cool :)))
17:49:12 <TheBlueWizard> redundant data storage really helps :)
17:50:30 <I440r> ya
17:51:56 <TheBlueWizard> me...nothing much going on....just pushing cruds at work, mostly...and I notice myself being exceptionally sleepy this week
17:53:16 <I440r> hehe
17:57:27 <I440r> brb gotta walk doggie :P
17:57:33 <TheBlueWizard> k
18:02:45 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login10.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
18:03:34 <TheBlueWizard> hiya tcn
18:04:34 <tcn> ehy
18:05:41 <TheBlueWizard> what's happenin'?
18:06:03 <tcn> you'd think with all these people there'd be a conversation
18:06:19 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
18:06:55 <TheBlueWizard> y'know, Forth is a lot like Zen....it involves intense silence ;)
18:08:27 --- quit: Fractal (Connection timed out)
18:13:38 <tcn> heh.. this is turning into the conservative channel :0
18:13:41 <tcn> ;)
18:14:37 <TheBlueWizard> huh?  why is this conservative?
18:15:23 <tcn> i440r and a new guy were on here praising rush limbaugh the other day
18:15:40 <tcn> well, i don't listen to rush.. but i'm conservative
18:15:48 <TheBlueWizard> really...heh
18:16:07 <TheBlueWizard> I'm somewhat conservative myself...but I'm no dittohead ;)
18:16:23 <tcn> the one time I heard rush he was full of shit
18:16:57 <tcn> what's this, the put cypher locks on all the doors at USDA because of 9/11?
18:18:05 <TheBlueWizard> funny you mention that...I work for USDA....some doors are indeed cipher locked, but not a lot
18:18:38 <tcn> oh, just YOUR office :)
18:19:05 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha ha....there is more than just one office :)
18:19:28 <tcn> so i440's gonna be here any sec, i see
18:19:44 <TheBlueWizard> yeah....walking his puppy
18:20:09 <tcn> a few miles :)
18:21:46 <tcn> I started my assembler in C
18:22:58 <TheBlueWizard> oh?   um...was that some part of a bigger project?  I am trying to remember something about some big project someone is working on (and it wasn't kc5tja for sure)
18:23:28 <tcn> i440's doing one in forth, for isforth
18:23:57 <tcn> it's a lot of the same problems, mainly, parsing & assembler the friggin x86 instructions
18:24:41 <TheBlueWizard> I know I440r is coding up his x86 assembler...written in IsForth, of course
18:25:15 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...sounds like you hate NASM enough to start coding your version, eh?
18:25:34 <tcn> since I'm messing with C compilers, why not?
18:26:58 <TheBlueWizard> what do you mean by messing with C compilers?  Do you mean you are modifying the C compiler(s) themselves?
18:27:07 <tcn> NASM ain't _bad_ but it's kinda complicated.. guess i'd rather have it simpler.. maybe inline it in C
18:28:17 <tcn> well.. write the %directives how I want them..
18:29:01 <TheBlueWizard> ah...sort of like retrofit C compiler to use NASM style x86 syntax, say (or even more wild, I440r's style x86 syntax? o_O  O_o  O_O  *_*  ^_^)
18:30:15 <tcn> yeah. i've got a small-c compiler for DOS sorta running in linux
18:30:41 <TheBlueWizard> ah...cool :)
18:30:58 <tcn> and a 6502 CP/M compiler that really does work in linux!
18:31:12 <TheBlueWizard> really?  neat!
18:31:19 <tcn> produces lousy 386 code though
18:31:55 <tcn> the DOS one is more optimized.. i haven't figured it all out yet :)
18:31:58 <TheBlueWizard> heh...the original Small-C compiler isn't terribly good at optimizing
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18:33:20 <tcn> it's still better than most forths :)
18:34:11 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Kitanin
18:34:19 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: true....
18:34:40 <I440r> back
18:34:41 <I440r> hi tcn
18:35:12 <tcn> so that's my big thing lately.. small C.. C programming..
18:35:17 <tcn> hey i440r
18:35:54 <tcn> so how's your assembler coming?
18:37:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r again...is your puppy exhausted now? :)
18:37:09 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: I see
18:39:14 <I440r> not
18:39:15 <I440r> heh
18:39:24 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
18:39:24 <I440r> that puppy is a terror :P
18:39:38 <TheBlueWizard> terror?  as being in hyperactive?
18:40:05 <I440r> ya hehe
18:40:09 <I440r> we have two dogs now
18:40:16 <I440r> a puppy and the siberian poodle :)
18:40:37 <TheBlueWizard> two?  now you are busy with the dogs hehe!
18:41:23 <tcn> poodle? what?
18:42:02 <I440r> great big, fear enspiring vicious siberian attack poodle :)
18:42:38 <OrngeTide> pooples make excellent hunting dogs.
18:42:46 <OrngeTide> poodles even:)
18:42:49 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:43:03 <OrngeTide> that's what they were originally bred for.
18:44:04 <I440r> this is realy a siberian husky
18:45:50 <tcn> what's the puppy?
18:48:31 <tcn> anyway.. there are really only a dozen kinds of instructions on the x86
18:49:32 <tcn> MOV, ALU (add/sub/etc), shift/rotate, LEA, CMP/TEST, those are the harder ones
18:51:24 <tcn> usually bit 0 is the word size (8/32 bit) and bit 1 is the direction (reg <- r/m or r/m <- reg)
18:55:16 <tcn> MOV, XCHG, ALU, CMP, TEST have short forms for when EAX is involved..
18:57:09 <tcn> ALU = add, or, adc, sbb, and, sub, xor
18:57:20 <tcn> (CMP is the 7th "alu" instruction)
18:58:49 <tcn> my book has a hexadecimal opcode table.. it should be OCTAL.. bit 0-2 across, 3-5 down, and 4 different tables for 6-7
19:00:12 <TheBlueWizard> heh...it'd make sense...similar situation with 6502 opcodes (though it would require oddball octal format)
19:01:22 <tcn> oh wow.. I should get out my Z80 opcode table
19:02:08 <tcn> it just looks all wrong in hex.. doesn't make sense.. there IS sense to it
19:02:10 <TheBlueWizard> Z80....I think it also would call for oddball octal...lemme look it up :)
19:02:22 <tcn> it's not odd at all..
19:02:31 <tcn> here's an x86 page.. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/7052/opcode.txt
19:02:34 * TheBlueWizard has systematically recode Z80 to make it look logical
19:09:19 <TheBlueWizard> here is the excerpt from the file containing my recoding:
19:09:20 <TheBlueWizard> (8 0rrr)	ADD A,<R>
19:09:31 <TheBlueWizard> (8 1rrr)	ADC A,<R>
19:09:43 <TheBlueWizard> (9 0rrr)	SUB <R>
19:09:43 <TheBlueWizard> (9 1rrr)	SBC A,<R>
19:09:51 <TheBlueWizard> (A 0rrr)	AND <R>
19:09:51 <TheBlueWizard> (A 1rrr)	XOR <R>
19:09:58 <TheBlueWizard> (B 0rrr)	OR <R>
19:09:58 <TheBlueWizard> (B 1rrr)	CP <R>
19:10:32 <TheBlueWizard> where rrr: 0  1  2  3  4  5  6     7
19:10:45 <TheBlueWizard> maps to:
19:10:56 <TheBlueWizard>      R:   B  C  D  E  H  L  (HL)  A
19:11:05 <TheBlueWizard> a few more:
19:11:33 <TheBlueWizard> CB (01bbbrrr)	BIT <b>,<R>
19:11:33 <TheBlueWizard> CB (10bbbrrr)	RES <b>,<R>
19:11:33 <TheBlueWizard> CB (11bbbrrr)	SET <b>,<R>
19:11:49 <TheBlueWizard> there are a lot more, of course
19:16:54 <TheBlueWizard> you're right tho'...Z80 uses regular octal format
19:19:10 <tcn> and it has a common ancestor with the 80x86.. the 8080
19:19:35 <tcn> of course the regs all changed
19:19:56 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...Z80 is actually a more logical extension of 8080 than 80x86 is....
19:20:47 <TheBlueWizard> and Z80 syntax/wordings certainly is much better than Intel's style :)
19:21:00 <TheBlueWizard> for 8080, that is
19:21:19 <tcn> never used one
19:21:38 <tcn> hmm.. that 6502 compiler does 8080 too..
19:22:04 <tcn> it translated easily to the modern x86
19:24:25 <tcn> i'm doing that octal table right now..
19:24:40 <tcn> so i'm sorta not here :)
19:26:15 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:26:36 <tcn> i can't believe i never did this before
19:26:53 <TheBlueWizard> really?
19:28:14 <I440r> tcn let me see that table when your finished
19:28:44 <I440r> that above url is exactly what i have been searching for for the past 4 weeks
19:28:53 <tcn> heh.. i'd have to scan it at work
19:29:10 <tcn> you have excel?
19:29:13 <I440r> ur doing it on paper ?
19:29:16 <I440r> yes i have excel
19:29:26 <tcn> maybe i'll type it up in there, then
19:29:31 <I440r> :)
19:29:41 <tcn> this paper copy is a rough draft
19:31:08 <I440r> when your finished :)
19:31:10 <I440r> nho rush
19:31:12 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:33:22 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
19:33:39 <tcn> see ya
19:33:46 <I440r> im bye dood
19:34:49 <TheBlueWizard> bye tcn and I440r
19:34:54 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
19:34:59 <tcn> you too i440?
19:35:09 <tcn> no reason to stay on
19:35:16 <I440r> nope
19:35:20 <I440r> im not leaving :)
19:35:27 <I440r> i was just saying bye to tbw :)
19:35:44 <tcn> i c
19:36:23 <tcn> this opcode table needs proofreading
19:36:29 <I440r> ya
19:36:42 <I440r> i already found some BIG errors in the nasm opcode documentation
19:36:55 <tcn> heh
19:36:59 <I440r> like multiple instructions documented as having identical encodings
19:37:19 <tcn> this table of binary encodings & timings is screwed up
19:37:32 <tcn> but sorta useful for seeing the bit patterns
19:38:36 <tcn> the big chart w/ 16 rows & column is right at least, but it should have been 4 8x8 charts
19:39:10 <I440r> heh
19:39:35 <I440r> futhin you there ?
19:42:57 <I440r> tcn how did you find that page ?
19:43:41 <tcn> google
19:43:55 <tcn> "8086 opcode chart octal"
19:43:58 <I440r> ive been searching google for 4 weeks for something like that
19:44:04 <tcn> no, opcode table"
19:44:07 <I440r> aha - i didnt specify octal in my search
19:45:43 <tcn> heh.. the x86 has no octal 666 opcode
19:45:48 <I440r> lol
19:46:23 <tcn> i guess that could be a problem on the old 36bit machines w/ 9-bit bytes
19:47:00 <I440r> lol
19:52:03 <tcn> this is sorta like when companies assign part #'s.. eventually they want something more systematic but they can't conflict with any old ones :)
19:52:12 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:52:20 <tcn> so they fill them in wherever they can and/or make really long ones :)
19:52:39 <I440r> ya heh
19:53:55 <tcn> i know one that used only 5-digit numbers.. older ones tell something about diameter & type of part.. new ones are just random :)
19:55:58 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
19:57:18 <futhin> i440r: yeah? i'm here now ?
19:58:36 <I440r> did you show my snazzy code to chuck ??? :)
19:58:42 <futhin> nope
19:58:46 <futhin> why?
19:59:13 <I440r> lol just wondered what he said about it :)
19:59:47 <futhin> i440r:  i think it would be nice if you write up a little explanation of it put it up on your webpage, and then email chuck & jeff fox with the url  (or the content)
20:00:04 <futhin> i'm curious what chuck moore would say about it too
20:00:06 <tcn> it's been done before
20:00:27 <I440r> i know but ive never seen it the way i did it
20:00:49 <I440r> i SAID it was a variation on a known theme
20:01:10 <tcn> to put the instruction first instead of last?
20:01:37 <tcn> MOV a, b   instead of  a, b MOV
20:01:37 <I440r> no the way i did it
20:01:56 <tcn> ok
20:01:57 <I440r> : a; ?a; @ r> ?a; ! >r ;
20:01:57 <I440r> that sort of thing
20:02:10 <I440r> yes
20:02:32 <I440r> the above word is slightly wrong, it wont work that way but the one in my assembler so far DOES work
20:03:52 <tcn> oh yeah, so it does the general stuff then returns to something specific to that instruction..
20:04:32 <tcn> guess I won't be doing that in my C assembler
20:04:40 <I440r> it messes with the return stack
20:05:11 <I440r> every instruction mneumonic calls a; which swaps the return address with what ever is in the variable ?a; 
20:05:38 <I440r> when a; returns it returns to the mneumonic word of the PREVIOUS instruction, not the current one
20:05:48 <I440r> end-code finishes the last instruction
20:08:32 <tcn> what's in ?a; ?
20:08:51 <futhin> tcn:  not the assembler stuff, nobody cares about that..  but the a; and ?a; stuff, that's what i suggested i440r tell chuck about
20:09:00 <I440r> remove a; from the mneumonics and the assembloer would accept 5 # ax mov
20:09:08 <I440r> etcv
20:09:25 <tcn> ic
20:09:52 <futhin> i440r:  don't ramble on about the assembler.  chuck will see ALL possible ramifications of a;  instantly, like a universe of all possibilities all parallel worlds, chuck will see it
20:09:57 <I440r> could use it anywhere
20:09:57 <I440r> width 100
20:09:57 <I440r> height 200
20:10:26 <I440r> the words width and height call a; and then store the value that will be on the stack when they actually DO execute
20:10:33 <futhin> unless he already knows about the trick?   is your trick original ?
20:10:49 <I440r> i dislike the name a; but i sort of borrowed it from another assembler
20:10:53 <I440r> could think of a better name
20:10:59 <futhin> i440r:  yes, please do
20:11:08 <futhin> let's brainstorm one right now
20:11:15 <futhin> what would be a good name?
20:11:29 <I440r> defer> ?
20:11:34 <futhin> delay, putoff, procrastinate, ..
20:11:35 <futhin>  :P
20:11:44 <futhin> get
20:11:48 <futhin> um..
20:12:03 <I440r> : width defer> !> _width_ ;
20:12:09 <I440r> does_later>
20:12:09 <I440r> hehe
20:13:02 <I440r> call it later> ?
20:13:02 <I440r> defer>
20:13:17 <futhin> later> sounds good
20:13:24 <futhin> i'm checking the thesaurus
20:13:27 <I440r> i prefer defer> heh
20:13:50 <futhin> hrm
20:14:03 <futhin> doesn't defer> have the potential to confuse some people ?
20:14:17 <futhin> fine
20:14:18 <futhin> defer>
20:15:53 <tcn> next>
20:15:58 <tcn> after>
20:16:01 <futhin> no, not next> heh :P
20:16:05 <futhin> i440r:  what's the variable name?
20:16:16 <tcn> following>
20:17:31 <futhin> i440r:  ?defer  seems like a poor variable name,  the question mark in front should be reserved for words that test the stack for something
20:17:51 <I440r> no you need the pointy bit
20:17:53 <I440r> defer>
20:17:54 <I440r> heh
20:18:04 <I440r> and the variable would be headerless
20:18:15 <futhin> how about
20:18:17 <futhin> defer.
20:18:24 <futhin> is the period used for anything?
20:18:31 <futhin> besides printing
20:18:33 <tcn> hey.. want to rename the 80x86 instructions to be like Z80 or 6502 instruction? LAX, SAX, LBX, SBX, ADB A..
20:18:34 <futhin> but that's in front
20:18:36 <I440r> its DOT
20:18:38 <futhin> .blahblah  = print
20:18:45 <I440r> defer. is not a good word
20:18:47 <futhin> blahblah. = variable
20:18:48 <futhin> :P
20:18:52 <I440r> defer>
20:18:59 <I440r> because it POINTS to whats being defered :)
20:19:10 <futhin> i440r: that's not the variable tho?
20:19:16 <futhin> i440r: okay, what's the code for the whole thing?
20:19:24 <futhin> give me example code or whatever
20:19:47 <I440r> ok
20:19:58 <I440r> 0 var defered
20:20:29 <I440r> hang on heh
20:20:50 <I440r> 0 var defered
20:21:11 <I440r> : defer> defered r> !> defered dup ?: >r drop ;
20:21:22 <I440r> ?: is an 'if else then' replacement
20:21:44 <I440r> ?: if-part else-part more-shit-here
20:21:59 <futhin> uh..  could you just code it in common forth rather than isforth?
20:22:07 <futhin> or in chuck forth
20:22:31 <futhin> or nevermind
20:22:31 <I440r> : defer> defered r> !> defered ?dup if >r then ;
20:22:36 <futhin> doesn't really matter
20:22:45 <I440r> 0 var defered would be 0 value defered
20:22:59 <I440r> if you want variables it would be
20:22:59 <I440r> variable defered
20:23:15 <futhin> 0 variable defered 
20:23:15 <I440r> : defer> defered @ r> defered ! ?dup if >r then ;
20:23:27 <futhin> no 0 ?
20:23:30 <futhin> in front of variable?
20:23:40 <futhin> set to 0 by variable automatically?
20:24:18 <I440r> variable defered defered off
20:24:40 <I440r> any sequence of events using defered> would have to clear defered
20:24:43 <I440r> for instance
20:24:51 <I440r> : code defered off ;
20:24:58 <I440r> : mov defer> blah blah ;
20:25:05 <I440r> : xor defer> blah blah ;
20:25:14 <I440r> end-code defer> ;
20:25:57 <futhin> : width defer> !> _width_ ;
20:25:57 <futhin> : height defer> !> _height_ ;
20:25:57 <futhin> defer>
20:26:10 <futhin> WIDTH 100  HEIGHT 100
20:26:42 <I440r> no you dont run defer> outside a definition
20:26:48 <I440r> defered off
20:26:48 <I440r> width 100
20:26:57 <I440r> height 200
20:27:03 <I440r> end-of-all-that-crap
20:27:16 <I440r> : end-of-all-that-crap defer> ;
20:27:30 <I440r> an empty defered> word
20:29:10 <I440r> onetoms file format example had a P7 at the top of all image files
20:29:10 <I440r> 07
20:29:10 <I440r> width xxx
20:29:10 <I440r> height yyy
20:29:18 <I440r> foo zzz
20:29:18 <I440r> blah aaa
20:29:24 <I440r> end-of-header
20:29:24 <I440r> or something like that
20:29:39 <I440r> P7 would do defered off or 0 defered !
20:29:47 <futhin> yeah, ENDHDR 
20:30:01 <I440r> and end-of-header would do : endhdr defer> ;
20:30:12 <futhin> is OFF a common forth word?
20:30:19 <I440r> yes
20:30:24 <I440r> its a zero store
20:30:31 <I440r> not sure if chuck would use it tho
20:30:38 <I440r> code off
20:30:45 <I440r>  pop eax
20:30:50 <I440r>  mov dword [eax], 0
20:30:50 <I440r> end-code
20:30:52 <I440r> or something like that
20:32:07 <I440r> tcn that all make sense to you ?
20:32:24 <tcn> wasn't paying attention
20:33:01 <futhin> ever wanted to "parse" syntax like:  WIDTH 100   HEIGHT 200 ?
20:33:01 <futhin> there's a way to parse it the forth way.  i440r has developed a word called DEFER>
20:33:01 <futhin> variable defered
20:33:01 <futhin> : defer> defered @ r> defered ! ?dup if >r then ;
20:33:01 <futhin> now we can have
20:33:01 <futhin> defered off
20:33:03 <futhin> width 100
20:33:05 <futhin> height 200
20:33:07 <futhin> ( etc, all the other stuff that is in this format )
20:33:09 <futhin> endofit
20:33:11 <futhin> : width defer> !> _width_ ;
20:33:13 <futhin> : height defer> !> _height_ ; 
20:33:15 <futhin> ( etc )
20:33:17 <futhin> : endofit defer> ;
20:33:19 <futhin> the end defer> is needed to store height to _height_
20:33:38 <I440r> fucking typical heh
20:33:47 <futhin> what? heh
20:34:08 <futhin> ?????
20:34:27 <futhin> is the plan that i write up about it for you? :P
20:34:32 <futhin> and then email it to chuck & jeff? :P
20:34:33 <I440r> would be bnetter to have a word that called defered off
20:34:33 <I440r> yes
20:34:39 <I440r> needed to store the last item
20:35:17 <futhin> want me to say anything else? add anything? etc
20:35:42 <futhin> call you Mark Manning IV instead of i440r? 
20:35:45 <futhin> etc
20:35:57 <I440r> lol
20:35:57 <I440r> you can do so :)
20:36:08 <I440r> im sure they wont be THAT impressed heh
20:36:14 <futhin> heh
20:36:14 <I440r> its what one expects of forth coders
20:39:42 <futhin> fine, sent it to both
20:40:01 <futhin> dammit, i forgot to say "please tell me what you think of it"
20:40:11 <futhin> i know they'll never respond to me
20:40:12 <futhin> heh
20:40:51 <I440r> lol
20:41:27 <futhin> man, we should get a bunch of forth coders together and go rough 'em up!
20:41:28 <futhin> :P
20:42:12 <futhin> cuz they seem despirited or whatever
20:42:32 <futhin> i want to talk to them in person
20:42:54 <futhin> it's easier to make sure there's _actually_ a conversation
20:42:55 <futhin> jeez
20:43:15 <tcn> hm. finished my table.
20:43:22 <I440r> lol
20:43:23 <I440r> you cant blame them tho
20:43:24 <futhin> last time jeff fox was online i was asking him to talk with me about the business aspects of forth
20:43:31 <futhin> and he didn't respond :/
20:44:01 <futhin> that's where my top blows off..  i'm 21 years old, young as hell, and full of piss and vinegar, raring to go
20:44:11 <futhin> and no 50 year olds are gonna slow me down :P
20:44:26 <futhin> and they don't have the right to demoralize me or not be energetic around me :P
20:44:34 <futhin> hehe
21:02:59 <tcn> goodnight
21:02:59 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:03:18 <futhin> good night..
21:03:26 <futhin> question
21:03:41 <futhin> i have a word that produces a string 
21:03:53 <futhin> and the string is a name, and there are different names that are going to appear
21:03:59 <futhin> i want to record the name
21:04:10 <futhin> and how many times the name appears
21:05:43 <futhin> i440r:  got any ideas?
21:05:48 <tcn> yeah..? you need look it up in a list, add it if it's not there, and increase the count..?
21:05:48 <futhin> should i create a table or something
21:05:56 <futhin> yeah
21:06:04 <futhin> i need to add it to a list if it's not already there
21:06:05 <futhin> etc
21:06:08 <futhin> the list needs to be growable
21:06:16 <futhin> so i guess i'll use a variable or something
21:06:30 <tcn> how many words..?
21:06:35 <futhin> ?
21:06:37 <futhin> how many names?
21:06:39 <tcn> yeah
21:06:40 <futhin> do not know
21:06:43 <futhin> many
21:06:46 <tcn> min/max?
21:06:56 <futhin> 100 max
21:07:00 <futhin> or 50 max
21:07:09 <tcn> then just use a linked list, no need for hash tables :)
21:07:17 <futhin> can't i make a data structure that grows?
21:07:27 <futhin> instead of allocating a fixed amount of memory? :P
21:07:32 <futhin> hey? this is forth? ;P
21:07:38 <futhin> heh
21:07:40 <tcn> just pile it on the heap.. i mean "here"
21:07:51 <futhin> what's a linked list look like in forth with this names stuff
21:07:54 <futhin> i know what a linked list is
21:08:01 <futhin> but not sure about how to implement it
21:08:26 <tcn> VARIABLE LIST   HERE LIST !   0 ,
21:08:28 <I440r> ?
21:08:28 <I440r> futhin no you cant :P
21:08:37 <futhin> i440r: heh, i know :/
21:08:55 <futhin> unless i hax0r the forth
21:09:02 <futhin> and put the memory at the top of the memory thingie
21:09:06 <futhin> and grow it down or whatever ;P
21:09:09 <tcn> : SEARCH  LIST @  BEGIN DUP @ WHILE <COMPARE STRING> REPEAT DROP ;
21:10:12 <futhin> i'm going  to have a string returned by parse
21:10:16 <futhin> so that's probably two values on the stack
21:10:21 <futhin> the address and the count
21:10:23 <futhin> right ?
21:10:36 <tcn> : ADD  HERE  0 , ( count)  LIST @ ,  S,   ( here) LIST ! ;
21:10:44 <tcn> yup
21:10:47 <I440r> tcn only lamers code in all upper case :P
21:10:59 <futhin> is SEARCH valid?
21:11:07 <futhin> i440r:  uppercase code in irc is nice
21:11:15 <futhin> helps distinguish it from the rest of the noise
21:11:21 <I440r> it can be
21:11:40 <tcn> : COUNT ( string)  SEARCH IF  1 ..count.. +!  ELSE ADD THEN ;
21:11:53 <tcn> your noise, i440 :)
21:12:04 <I440r> lol
21:12:12 <I440r> no. im just loud :)
21:12:17 <tcn> ..count.. = get location of count for that name..
21:12:35 <futhin> : storenick search add count ; 
21:12:36 <futhin> :P
21:12:37 <futhin> heh
21:12:47 <tcn> it's not a bad language for a litle problem like this
21:12:52 <I440r> i use count to fetch from successive addresses
21:12:52 <I440r> begin
21:13:03 <I440r>   count ( --- n ) 
21:13:12 <I440r>   dup
21:13:12 <I440r> while
21:13:20 <I440r>   dosomething with n
21:13:20 <I440r> repeat
21:13:26 <I440r> drop
21:13:30 <I440r> ( a --- ) 
21:13:41 <I440r> and the above stack comment should have been a+1 n 
21:17:15 <futhin> tcn: how many years have you known forth?
21:17:31 <tcn> no more than 4
21:17:46 <tcn> any good: 1
21:19:28 <futhin> tcn: have you read the Forth's Dilemma article that's in the topic?
21:19:54 --- join: Fractal (feud@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth
21:20:07 <futhin> howdy fractal
21:20:08 <tcn> yeah
21:20:44 <I440r> hi fractal
21:21:28 <Fractal> Hello, folks.
21:21:57 <Fractal> A day for firm decisions!!!!! Or is it?
21:22:16 <tcn> it's midnight here
21:22:33 <I440r> lol
21:23:32 <Fractal> So I just bought a soundblaster Live! card.
21:23:37 <Fractal> It's pretty fucking sweet.
21:23:53 <Fractal> The linux mixer is kind of sketchy with it though. :(
21:24:19 <tcn> fix it :)
21:24:43 <Fractal> But after much fooling, I got the system configured quite well.
21:24:55 <Fractal> I might have to. :)
21:25:47 <Fractal> I'm going to go fool with as10k1, which is the built in effects processor on the card. Sounds like it'll be pretty neat.
21:25:47 <tcn> you need a different mixer program, or is the kernel mixer interface too lame to handle all the possibilities?
21:26:38 <Fractal> tcn : Yeah, the kernel mixer interface is screwy. The labels are all wrong. Also, the kernel support is fucked up. I've should have 6 DMA channels, but only 2 are supported.
21:27:00 <Fractal> I should get /dev/dsp[0-5]
21:27:16 <Fractal> Actually /dev/dsp0 is actually /dev/dsp, go figure.
21:27:58 <tcn> supposed to be
21:28:17 <tcn> heh.. i don't think they planned on more than 2
21:28:17 <I440r> well /dev/dsp is a link to /dev/dsp0
21:28:31 <Fractal> I440r : Not on my box.
21:29:12 <tcn> does the x86 have 6 DMA channels to spare?
21:29:39 <tcn> i thought it had 8, with at least 2 taken
21:30:05 <Fractal> Hm... Maybe it doesn't have 6 DMA channels...
21:31:04 <Fractal> Thought it did for some reason.
21:31:18 <Fractal> Oh well, it's still a pretty neat piece of silicon.
21:31:53 <tcn> so you can record 6 tracks at a time?
21:33:02 <Fractal> No, I wish. I think I can record 2 at once, with mic in and line in. The others would have to be for output only.
21:33:27 --- quit: Soap` ()
21:39:13 <tcn> heh.. i said goodnight half an hour ago
21:39:15 <tcn> see ya
21:39:20 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving")
21:40:36 <I440r> lol
21:40:45 <I440r> fine. be like that... leave why dont you :P
21:42:52 <Fractal> Heh.
21:43:07 <Fractal> Got a sound card I440r?
21:47:01 <I440r> yes
21:47:01 <I440r> a crappy one hehe
21:47:01 <I440r> sonic vibes
21:48:13 <Fractal> Oh...
21:53:18 <I440r> got a nice tv tuner video card tho - but it dont work in linux
21:55:22 <Fractal> Harsh...
21:55:41 <I440r> hehe
21:56:16 <futhin> i've got the best sound card ever..  it's ATI ;P
21:56:36 <futhin> ATI sound card
21:56:43 <futhin> not sure if any such thing exist heh
21:56:55 <Fractal> Heh. Me neither.
22:01:20 <futhin> if a string contains a name, how do i test for that name heh
22:01:27 * futhin is too lazy to check online or whatever
22:02:17 <futhin> ( string on stack ) s" name" parse
22:02:18 <futhin> ?
22:02:21 <futhin> bah
22:14:56 <futhin> no, that would be WORD
22:15:14 <futhin> dpans sucks
22:15:15 <futhin> heh
22:16:04 <I440r> i dont like s"
22:17:48 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:22:41 <futhin> i440r: then what do you use?
22:22:59 <futhin> how do i find a string within a string ???
22:23:07 <I440r> i dont use s"
22:23:19 <I440r> in isforth?
22:23:27 <I440r> isforth doesnt have any string words yet
22:23:35 <I440r> other than string compilation
22:23:42 <I440r> ," ,' ."
22:23:48 <I440r> and s,
22:23:56 <I440r> but i also dislike s,
22:23:59 <futhin> wtf is with dpans?!?!?!  why are the descriptions of the words so goddamn gay and unclear ??
22:24:18 <futhin> what's s, ?
22:24:36 <I440r> because they want c coders to be able to read forth without needing to LEARN it
22:24:46 <I440r> it commas in a string
22:24:57 <I440r> look in the source file :P
22:25:43 <futhin> i440r:  is there already a forth word that finds a string within a string for me ?
22:25:55 <futhin> or do i have to do  C@  and check it against a string ?
22:29:34 <futhin> : stringtest ( string to test -- true? )  over c@ 'A' = if over 1+ c@ 'c' = if over 1+ 1+ c@ 't'  then then then 
22:29:35 <futhin> lol
22:29:50 <futhin> i440r:  that is abomination code!
22:31:02 <I440r> i wouldnt do it that way
22:31:13 <I440r> i would do 
22:31:31 <I440r> count 'A' = if count 'c' = of cout 't' = if blah then then then :)
22:31:31 <I440r> heh
22:31:51 <futhin> COMPARE
22:31:56 <futhin> that's the word i should use
22:32:06 <futhin> cause i have two strings to compare dammit
22:32:11 <futhin> thanks for the help! :P
22:32:14 <futhin> heheh
22:32:53 <futhin> i440r:  are you there?  or are you distracted?
22:33:55 <I440r> heh
22:33:58 <futhin> ehh, the answer is obvious :P
22:34:17 <I440r> i sure wouldnt do a series of character literal compares within a series of if statements heh
22:34:28 <futhin> isn't count 'A' = if  count 'c' = if   etc..  stupid if i have COMPARE ?
22:35:30 <I440r> yes :)
22:35:46 <I440r> its stupid even if you DONT have it
22:35:46 <I440r> heh
22:35:50 <futhin> well couldn't you have suggested compare in the first place? ;P heh
22:35:53 <futhin> oh
22:35:56 <futhin> what would you do instead?
22:36:17 <I440r> i use comp
22:36:35 <I440r> which is less verbose than compare
22:36:51 <I440r> might as well call it
22:37:05 <futhin> should i be using SEARCH and COMPARE?
22:37:11 <futhin> SEARCH is probably bloated ???
22:37:19 <I440r> compare-string-one-with-string-two-given-address-of-string-one-and-address-of-string-two
22:37:20 <I440r> fucking ans LOVES to be verbose
22:37:24 <futhin> yeah
22:37:26 <futhin> it's like
22:37:39 <I440r> ugh
22:37:41 <futhin> SEARCH IF 2DROP <CODE> THEN
22:37:51 <futhin> cause i don't need the 2 other parameters search gives me!
22:37:52 <I440r> no
22:37:52 <I440r> search isnt a word
22:37:52 <futhin> jeez
22:38:02 <I440r> FIND is a word that searches the dictionary
22:38:03 <futhin> yes it is
22:38:08 <I440r> but SEARCH is NOT a word
22:38:11 <futhin> SEARCH is a ANS word
22:38:14 <futhin> yes it is a word
22:38:32 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth
22:38:39 <futhin> 17.6.1.2191 SEARCH 
22:38:39 <futhin> STRING 
22:38:39 <futhin> 	( c-addr1 u1 c-addr2 u2 -- c-addr3 u3 flag )
22:38:44 <futhin> heh
22:41:32 <futhin> weirdh
22:41:42 <futhin> search isn't working in gforth? :/
22:42:52 <futhin> grrr
22:44:39 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth
22:45:20 <futhin> good evening kitanin
22:46:28 <futhin> kitanin:  how do i find a string within a string? :)
22:46:48 <futhin> SEARCH isn't working in gforth for some reason..
22:50:48 <futhin> i'm gonna do it without SEARCH
22:50:52 <futhin> i'm gonna use COMPARE
23:04:02 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
23:04:46 <futhin> i'm writing a irc log parser
23:04:49 <futhin> in forth
23:05:01 <futhin> it doesn't do much right now
23:05:17 <futhin> it just counts how many quit messages there are,  how many /me messages there are, etc
23:06:29 --- join: sbk_ (~kbs@dsl-65-184-98-221.telocity.com) joined #forth
23:06:39 <futhin> hi sbk_ :)
23:06:47 <sbk_> hi futhin
23:06:47 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:06:54 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth
23:11:49 <futhin> sbk_: are you new to this chan?  how long have you known forth? :)
23:12:38 <sbk_> hi futhin: yep, new to the channel. I'm curious about forth, but haven't used it for real
23:14:05 <sbk_> I'm idly toying with creating an interactive environment to play with my old pc, and forth seemed like a good bet
23:17:15 <futhin> what's speed is your old pc?
23:17:40 * sbk_ boots to find out
23:17:47 <futhin> eh
23:17:52 <futhin> is it a 386 or 486 or pentium
23:17:55 <futhin> that's what i meant ;P
23:18:11 <futhin> since you said it's "old"
23:18:26 <futhin> my comp is a p133 with 32 megs of ram heh :D
23:18:33 <sbk_> 486/66mhz
23:19:11 <sbk_> it has (surprisingly I suppose) a scsi card and ethernet module
23:19:56 <sbk_> anyway... fun toy to play with
23:20:08 <Fractal> That's nothing, I've got a computer with a 7 inch monochrome monitor and a 7 Mhz clock speed, with a SCSI bus in it.
23:20:18 <Fractal> (Mac SE)
23:20:23 <sbk_> ah, no kidding.
23:20:43 <sbk_> i don't know much about macs
23:20:46 <futhin> all computers are good toys! :D
23:20:57 <Fractal> Hell, macs were (debatably still are) better than PCs in every respect.
23:21:39 <sbk_> no doubt. I rather hate the x86 instruction set now that I'm learning more about it
23:21:55 <futhin> there is probably _no_ computer out there that i wouldn't mind playing with except maybe the really big ones that take up more rooms than i have in my house :P
23:22:01 <Fractal> SCSI is a good example. Mac switched to the superior standard almost 20 years ago. The PC world still has yet to do it on a large scale.
23:22:22 <Fractal> sbk_ : Well you won't like mac assembly. It's whack.
23:22:33 <sbk_> then again, looking more and more like embedded systems are gonna look like mini-pc boxes, so figured may as well bite the bullet
23:22:41 <Fractal> On the other hand, macs have the best debugger on the planet. Bar none.
23:22:45 <Fractal> Macsbug.
23:23:07 <sbk_> fractal: ah, zat so? I'd have thought the motorola instruction set would be pretty comfortable to use
23:23:21 <futhin> fractal:  when i had my very first exposure to macs, i looked for the console or some way to get into the internals..  i was pissed when i couldn't find such a thing heh 
23:24:02 <futhin> mips asm > motorola asm > x86 asm or something like that 
23:24:08 <Fractal> It's fairly comfortable, I suppose, except the crackhead memory addressing methods. There's hundreds of them. Also, them being big endian can be confusing.
23:25:01 <Fractal> futhin : Yeah, until recently apple has been very anti-console, but there has always been plenty of information on programming macs.
23:25:16 <Fractal> Inside Macintosh is a great book, even if the examples are in PASCAL.
23:25:57 <Fractal> Interestingly, forth has always been rather popular on macs.
23:26:17 <sbk_> heh, really? 
23:26:59 <Fractal> Yes. There are many forth systems for macs available, and unlike PC forth programmers, people actually write applications in them. ;)
23:27:44 <futhin> fractal: console isn't really necessary, but something that lets me get into the gritty inner world
23:28:23 <futhin> as i understand, for awhile, there was no way to get access to the gritty inner world with macs, and then some programs became available for that
23:28:26 <Fractal> Oh, I think console is completely necessary. Any graphical scripting (applescript for example) is far too ambiguous.
23:28:38 <futhin> huh??
23:28:55 <futhin> what does graphical scripting have to do with the gritty inner world? heh
23:29:03 <Fractal> Applescript was apple's attempt at making a graphical scripting language. IMO, it was horrible.
23:30:01 <Fractal> A lot. They tried to deal with the programmers who kept clamouring for a standard, consistent text based scripting system (a console, essentially), and they gave them applescript, which isn't what they wanted, which is why few hardcore hackers use macs nowdays.
23:30:33 <Fractal> Supposedly OS X will change all that, but I still run linux on my macs...
23:32:02 <futhin> no no no 
23:32:34 <futhin> you are confusing "gritty inner world" with "text based interface"
23:32:43 <futhin> :P
23:32:51 <futhin> it doesn't always follow
23:33:00 <futhin> um
23:33:17 <Fractal> Well, if you're talking about talking to the physical hardware directly, mac has always been better at that than the PC, so it's not an issue.
23:33:25 <futhin> question:  how should i name my variable words in forth ??
23:33:40 <futhin> i want to name my variable words so that it's obvious they are variables
23:34:06 <futhin> what's the forth style standard on that issue?
23:34:47 <Fractal> Good question. Why don't you just use Vvarname or something?
23:35:07 <Fractal> You could even do uVvarname to indicated unsigned vars.
23:35:15 <Fractal> Hungarian Notation for Forth...
23:35:25 <Fractal> It's an idea.
23:35:36 <futhin> unsigned vars..
23:36:04 <Fractal> Yeah, like your unsigned integers, etc.
23:36:07 <futhin> ehhh..  i wonder why nobody has bothered to name variables and constants so that its obvious what they are
23:36:08 <futhin> heh
23:36:39 <Fractal> Actually, there was a movement for that in the C world ("Hungarian Notation"), but it never really caught on.
23:36:43 <Fractal> Dunno about forth.
23:36:51 --- quit: sbk_ ("bye")
23:40:47 <futhin> well i got to go to bed
23:40:48 <futhin> good night
23:42:18 <futhin> you know, it might not be good forth programming to have the variables obviously variables
23:42:29 <futhin> because if they are just plain names
23:42:34 <futhin> it can look more like english
23:42:35 <futhin> or whatever
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.22