00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.19 04:19:29 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-187.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:46:01 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:31:29 futhin: There? 08:22:55 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 08:23:32 Hi kc5tja :) 08:24:18 re 09:23:40 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 09:33:54 anybody know where i can find the list of 27 primitives/core words that MachineForth has? 09:33:59 i'm having trouble finding it 09:34:25 nevermind, i think i found it at http://www.ultratechnology.com/f21cpu.html#cpu 09:36:14 They're also found on his ColorForth.com page with some digging. 09:44:01 --- join: Robert_ (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 09:44:17 --- quit: Robert (Network is unreachable) 09:45:39 --- nick: Robert_ -> robert 09:45:44 --- nick: robert -> Robert 09:49:02 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-shower 09:53:27 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 10:06:57 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:21:22 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:22:56 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-187.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 10:34:08 --- nick: kc-shower -> kc5tja 10:41:29 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:50:21 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 10:54:35 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 10:57:32 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 11:06:55 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:04:45 --- join: Kiara (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 12:04:45 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:05:08 --- nick: Kiara -> Kitanin 12:07:08 --- quit: yeahright (Network is unreachable) 12:08:33 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 12:12:26 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.244.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 12:50:10 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 12:50:10 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:51:38 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 13:07:10 --- quit: yeahright (Connection timed out) 13:07:31 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 13:09:05 --- nick: yeahright -> proteusguy 13:13:51 --- join: djones (~djones@206.157.224.254) joined #forth 13:16:25 I'm new to discovering Forth... Is there a paper on explaining the purpose of it? From what I've read it seems like a wanna-be ASM. 13:20:48 LOL 13:20:51 no 13:20:56 its not a wannabe asm 13:21:06 in some ways (alot of ways) its more powerfull 13:21:27 theres alot of documentation on the language out there though 13:21:31 do you intend to learn forth ? 13:21:51 forths original purpose was to do real-time embedded applications 13:21:59 its very well suited to robot control etc 13:22:26 but ive seen forth used for doing just about anything. database stuff, 3d shootemup games 13:22:42 leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards was also coded in forth 13:22:46 Well, I was trying to figure out the purpose of Forth before I jumped in and learned it... I just heard about it. 13:22:48 tho i never much liked that game 13:23:03 well lets list some differences between forth and c 13:23:13 compiled forth is 100* smaller than the equiv c 13:23:21 forth compiles in the blink of an eye 13:23:31 my compiler compiles a megabyte of source code PER SECOND 13:23:37 forth is both LOW level and HIGH level 13:23:43 it can cover the entire specturm 13:23:53 forth is extensible 13:24:03 forth development is orders of magnitude faster than c 13:24:10 edit compile link debug repeat becomes 13:24:13 edit debug repeat 13:24:14 Isn't it interpreted though? Kind of like Java? 13:24:16 because its interactive 13:24:23 its a compiled language 13:24:33 java borrows alot from forth but they wont admit it :) 13:24:38 heh 13:24:55 forths interactive development is VERY fast 13:25:24 there are alot of advantages to forth but thers on VERY BIG disadvantage 13:25:34 its obscure 13:25:45 it shouldnt be, it out-performs every other language there is 13:25:49 BAR NONE 13:25:54 but its not been accepted globally 13:26:14 it LITERALLY puts the c language to shame 13:26:31 so much so that alot of c coders HATE forth because it makes THEM look like dumbasses for using c (their take on it) 13:26:35 one of the FAQ's I read said there was no difference between the runtime of a Forth program and a C program? 13:26:45 not true 13:26:56 forth and c are so different from each other 13:27:04 look at a compiled C call to a function 13:27:07 push parameter 13:27:08 push parameter 13:27:08 push parameter 13:27:11 call function 13:27:14 open local stack frame 13:27:16 do function 13:27:21 clean local stack frame 13:27:22 return 13:27:25 clean parameters 13:27:32 ONE returned value 13:27:50 the reason you have to go through that gordian knot every time you call a function is because c only uses ONE stack 13:28:02 the "parameters" get buried undernetath the return address of the call 13:28:08 forth uses TWO stacks (or more) 13:28:13 one is called the parameter stack 13:28:17 the other is called the return stack 13:28:23 push parameter 13:28:25 push parameter 13:28:32 call function (called a word in forth) 13:28:35 do funciton 13:28:43 return ANY NUMBER of return values 13:29:10 c has a very shallow initial learning curve 13:29:18 ANY idiot and his brother can learn c 13:29:45 forth has a steep initial learning curve due to its reverse polish notation 13:29:55 forth however becomes increasingly easier to learn 13:29:57 heh... Not true... I know plenty of idiots that have been doing C for 4 years and still can't get the grasp of a linked list. 13:30:19 they learned just enough c code to produce BAD c 13:30:32 very very very few people learn to produce GOOD c 13:30:52 because the initial flatline learning curve goes balistic on you once you get past the basics 13:31:00 forths lerning curve is teh opposite 13:31:15 any idiot and their brothers arent going to learn forth because they wont get past the basics 13:31:27 once you HAVE the basics learned the rest is a snap 13:31:33 gotcha 13:31:55 99% of all forth coders either use a 100% written from scratch forth compiler or a very heavilly modified version of someone elses 13:32:05 I'm sure another reason that people aren't learning forth is because it's not widely accepted and therefore, hard to find a job in as well? 13:32:07 how many c coders do you know with their very own written from scratch c compiler 13:32:14 correct 13:32:27 though there ARE jobs otu there 13:32:39 forth inc, LMI and others 13:32:55 forth inc wrote the FedX tracking system 13:33:04 in forth 13:33:05 yeah, i read about that. 13:33:17 nasa uses forth alot 13:33:35 the people who did the original star wars sfx used forth 13:33:44 also the Sun OpenBoot prompt is a forth interpreter, from what i read. 13:34:01 when the melinium falcon was flying though the asteroids they had asteroids suspended on wires and a camera being controled by forth flying thru them 13:34:10 its a SORT of forth 13:34:13 free-bsd too 13:34:23 its not realy a full fledged forth though 13:34:29 but it is VERY VERY close :) 13:34:33 it can be made into one :) 13:34:42 oh yea 13:34:49 one other thing forth can boast that c cannot 13:35:01 if i write a program in 83 standard forth on THIS machine 13:35:16 the code will compile and run on ANY other machine in the world with an 83 standard forth compiler 13:35:28 it will compile first time with no modifications and will execute identicaly 13:35:40 "portable" 13:35:43 erm 13:35:55 "portable" C had 2493867529387465892374 #ifdefine this and #ifdefine that in its sources 13:36:00 there isnt "A" linux kernel source 13:36:04 theres 238406520384652893745 of them 13:36:09 all interleaved into the same source files 13:36:52 i refuse to add conditional compilation to my forth compiler, its an abomination 13:37:00 though, theres nothing to stop YOU from adding it :) 13:37:34 learning forth is not easy. its not impossible but it takes a little bit of work on your part hehe 13:37:47 1+2*3/4 in forth would be 1 2 + 3 * 4 / 13:37:47 or 13:37:52 4 3 2 1 + * / 13:37:56 from the source I saw of some forth code, it didn't look too hard... 13:38:15 well, its not. its the RPN that throws most people 13:38:16 hell, asm looked harder than forth.. 13:38:23 lol asm isnt hard 13:38:27 do you code asm ? 13:38:42 I'm learning it now. 13:38:45 c is orders of orders of orders of magnitude HARDER to learn than asm 13:38:50 x86 ? 13:38:53 yes 13:39:00 it is VERY simple 13:39:10 --- join: Kitanin (~Kitanin@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 13:39:18 do you know why asm is considerd a LOW level language and c is considerd a high level language? 13:39:28 I believe you were the one that suggested the book I buy. 13:39:40 because asm is SIMPLE. it takes a low level of inteligence to be able to understand it properly 13:39:43 its SIMPLER 13:40:33 Hey. 13:40:38 i wish lilo would stop spamming the network with all that CRAP 13:40:38 Just though about you, I440r :) 13:40:45 * I440r hides 13:40:46 heh 13:41:00 (Saw a movie about a woman fighting against NRA) 13:41:58 what movie 13:42:07 Uhmm.. 13:42:20 "Long Island incident" or something in that direction. 13:42:26 NRA is getting a bad rap from holywood because hollywood is run by the FAGS 13:42:42 :) 13:42:55 leathal weapon is FULL of anti NRA propoganda :) 13:43:09 First time for a long while I'm actually laughing in front of my computer. 13:43:15 May I quote you on that? :) 13:43:20 yes :) 13:43:31 you have my permission to quote the truth 13:43:47 brb, need to make coffee 13:43:54 djones u gona learn forth ? 13:46:19 Hrm... I'll buy me a TI83+, do you know if there's any forth for it? 13:46:25 I know nate37 was writing one, but... 13:46:28 I might... I'm wanting to learn ASM first and I always study C. It seems like you don't like C, but I love working with it... I don't want to be one of those people who learn enough to write bad C. Plus, It is part of my job to work with C so I always study up on it. But It seem like Forth is going to be my next challange. 13:46:29 Is there any out there? 13:47:26 I440r hates just about everything, don't care too much about him :) 13:47:34 hehe 13:47:46 By the way, I think knowing asm is good when you learn forth. 13:47:53 he's a great helper though... he always answers questions... which is good. 13:47:59 I don't think I'd understand forth as well if I didn't know asm. 13:48:00 Yeah. 13:48:07 He's good at what he's doing. 13:48:12 * Robert pets IsForth. 13:49:16 djones i consider c to be the worst language ever invented, i hate it with a PASSION. 13:49:30 Haha, see? :) 13:49:30 mostly because there are way too many LAMERS coding c :) 13:49:42 Well, that's the problem with everything popular. 13:49:50 djones i dont always answer questions hehehe 13:50:08 I mean, BASIC is...erm...popular, and just look at it :) 13:50:28 The BASIC community consists of maybe 100 bright people, and 1 million lamers ;) 13:50:47 I440r: ok, well... everytime I've asked a question, you answer it. 13:50:57 Only 1 million? My efforts at culling the herds are more successful than I thought... :-) 13:51:08 Kitanin lol 13:52:17 I think C is great for playing with algorithms and data structures and such... I get off on it. :-) 13:52:18 I440r: Sorry about two weeks ago. I started up IRC, then got called away for six hours while you tried to chat with me. :-( Then I flew to Milwaukee. :-) 13:52:40 lol 13:52:44 have phun there ??? :) 13:52:54 I'm not sure yet. 13:53:19 lol 13:53:23 u still there ? 13:53:26 I440r: Hey, you write like a BASIC programmer :) Almost as bad as onetom :) 13:53:35 Nope. 13:53:36 (Though he's not a bad programmer at all) 13:53:56 i only abbreviate YOU. not every fscking word :) 13:54:04 Hehe ;) 13:54:17 --- join: Kiara (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 13:54:19 You can't so s/fun/phun/, that looks odd. ;) 13:54:28 hi kiara 13:54:34 --- quit: Kitanin ("Leaving") 13:54:39 --- nick: Kiara -> Kitanin 13:54:44 aha 13:54:50 thunked i recognized you heh 13:54:53 Man, _that_ was a lousy IRC client... 13:54:59 which client ? 13:55:05 i use bitchx and xchat only 13:55:37 Homebrew. It _works_, but I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone yet. Well, noone I liked. :-) 13:55:39 I440r: I would of thought you would of made on in forth... being that you hate C so much. hehe. ;-) 13:55:41 irssi is the nicest one I know of. 13:56:15 djones made one what in forth? 13:56:30 IRC client 13:57:16 oh 13:57:21 im doing an irc bot in forth :) 13:57:27 hehe 13:57:29 need to get DNS code working tho 13:57:41 will prolly make the bot into an actual irc client some day :) 13:58:04 Still no working DNS code? :-/ 13:58:20 I440r: ipv6 support? :) 13:58:44 Hrm, what's really the difference between ipv4 and ipv6 from a programmer's point of view? 13:58:52 Just a different sockaddr struct? 13:58:58 robert im working on the assembler extension to the exclusion of everything else 13:59:43 Yeah, you told me :) 13:59:55 But... hehe, work faster ;) 14:00:08 How's the assembler going? 14:00:11 im still trying to find an opcode table thats COMPLETE and CORRRECT 14:00:14 i dont think there is one 14:00:21 Hah. 14:00:33 Well, combine the NASM and Intel ones, and you got most of them ;) 14:00:48 i emailed the nasm coders that their documentation is fucked slightly heh 14:00:48 I mean, who the fuck needs all undocumented 80286 instructions? :) 14:00:58 Hehe, found anything special? 14:01:05 The new docs are quite a bit better. 14:01:06 i dont care about the undocumented ones 14:01:17 Well, I dind't mean it literaly. 14:01:23 the following instructions have the same opcodes according to the nasm 14:01:25 documentation.... 14:01:25 add r/m8,imm8 cmp r/m8,imm8 14:01:25 add r/m16, imm16 cmp r/m16, imm16 14:01:25 add r/m32, imm32 cmp r/m32,imm32 14:01:25 add r/m16,imm8 cmp r/m16,imm8 14:01:26 add r/m32,imm8 cmp r/m32,imm8 14:01:28 fiadd mem16 fidivr mem16 14:01:30 fiadd mem32 fidivr mem32 14:02:08 I440r: That's because they _are_ the same opcodes. One's 16-bit, one's 32-bit. :-) 14:02:40 no 14:02:40 Oops. I was reading that the wrong way. Never mind. 14:02:59 add r/m8,imm8 does NOT have the same opcode as cmp r/m9, imm8 :P 14:03:01 * Kitanin thought you were complaining about the 16/32 thing. 14:03:08 no heh 14:03:21 * Kitanin uses Intel's docs. 14:03:31 What is missing then? 14:03:33 the intel docs are USELESS to me 14:03:41 Ah. 14:03:50 they have all the information scattered all over the place 14:04:02 and they are ALSO incorrect in quite a few places 14:05:01 Really? I've never found a mistake. Mind you, I ignored everything after the 386, so my point of view may be a little skewed. 14:05:06 FUCK. 14:05:14 I got the last 42378943 messages in one second. 14:05:16 I HATE lag. 14:05:23 23:05 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from Robert: 107.762 seconds 14:05:25 Grrr...! 14:05:37 i want to see a table that shows all LIKE encodings together 14:05:46 so all XXX r/m8, imm8 etc are all together 14:05:55 Well, write one :) 14:06:00 i am 14:06:08 Oh, cool :) 14:06:10 but it will take a month or 3 to compile it and check it 14:06:13 With descriptions? 14:06:26 Ooookay. That's an unusual requirement. 14:06:32 no. just mneumonics and addressing mode info and opcode encoding 14:06:44 you want a description for AAM go read intel :P 14:06:49 they get that right (mostly) 14:07:00 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:10:06 Hehe. 14:10:16 Well, I think the NASM docs is easier to read. 14:10:24 ya 14:10:45 apart from a FEW minor ooptses 14:10:55 Intel have way too many details for everyday, and PDFs aren't good for my slow computers :) 14:11:08 but their opcodes arent ordered in a LOGICAL order 14:11:12 not for me 14:11:20 if there are 30 different opcodes taht use 14:11:27 xxx000xx110011rrr 14:11:40 they are all scattered throughout the doc 14:11:45 i want them all in the same place 14:11:46 Yeah. 14:12:09 btw the above is just random, not a real opcode hehe 14:12:19 I guessed so ;) 14:12:22 heh... I used to work for grid.net 14:12:23 nasm doesnt support sse tho 14:12:25 and i want to 14:12:30 Heh. 14:12:31 whats grid.net ? 14:12:40 I've never even owned a computer that supports more than MMX. 14:12:44 I440r: check the reverse lookup on your IP 14:12:56 oh hehe 14:12:59 :-) 14:13:06 What did you do there? 14:13:07 WorldCom bought them out. 14:13:23 my isp is earthlink 14:13:44 brb i wanna disconnect and try reconnect at a faster speed 14:13:51 300 baud just doesnt cut it 14:13:52 I440r: yes... Grid.net leases IP's to earthlink, AOL, bellsouth... yada yada. 14:14:30 Robert: I started my Unix Admin days there... and they also wanted me to get into Java... which is when I quit. 14:14:34 --- join: I440r_ (mark4@pool-63.52.217.12.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 14:14:37 got it :) 14:15:02 i FINALLY managed to connect at 26.4 (i never get higher here) 14:15:07 ha! 14:15:09 that has to suck 14:15:27 Oh, heh. Did you quit because of the Java? ;) 14:15:32 java ? 14:15:34 what java ? 14:15:46 23:14 < djones> Robert: I started my Unix Admin days there... and they also 14:15:46 wanted me to get into Java... which is when I quit. 14:15:48 --- quit: I440r (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: I440r_!mark4@pool-63.52.217.12.ipls.grid.net))) 14:15:58 --- nick: I440r_ -> I440r 14:16:35 Robert: Not completely... it was the time when they wanted me to start learning Java that I quit. They went into a big freeze and we couldn't really do much or advance, so I wasn't about to take on Java and Unix admin crap and not get a pay raise... 14:16:37 lol 14:16:47 Hehe 14:16:52 How much did you make? 14:17:07 btw, why do people love Java that much? 14:17:19 I can't see why it should be that superior. 14:17:56 err... like 35,000/yr... I was a junior admin. Any Java sucks ass... I did start learning it for about 3 months, and realized how worthless it really is. 14:18:12 s/Any// 14:18:15 35k USD a year? Heh. 14:18:21 ok djones, you can hang in here, your cool :) 14:18:22 yep 14:18:30 hehe 14:18:35 From my quote file: 14:18:36 Why didn't we just do this in Perl/Python/Rexx/Tcl/bourne-shell/ 14:18:36 assembly? 14:18:36 Because all of those are free (modulo your time) and don't have *ANY* 14:18:36 potential for "strategic partnerships", as well they don't have point 14:18:36 and drool interfaces, or require 300k worth of hardware and software as 14:18:38 a back end. 14:18:40 -- Brian Gallew & petro 14:18:47 anyone who dis's java cant be all that bad :) 14:18:52 In Sweden, above $25k is counted as "well payed". 14:19:17 Is that before or after taxes? 14:19:21 Before. 14:19:23 robert anything less than 75k a year is rip off rates for me 14:19:25 And we got a lot of taxes here. 14:19:31 Uh. 14:19:31 if im hired full time i mean 14:19:40 as a contractor i wont take anything less than $45 an hour 14:19:42 $75k is almost too much. 14:19:45 I440r: I can't see why any one would like it. Besides idiots... It's a pointless language. Even for the web... 14:19:49 That's what the prime minister gets. 14:19:58 djones: :) 14:20:08 djones: So, why do people like it this much? 14:20:15 djones i wish all those skript kiddies would STOP using java script 14:20:16 djones: I just want to hear what you think... 14:20:32 I've barley seen Java myself, so I can't really tell anything bad about it. 14:21:49 Robert: because there is no learning curve... It's a very simple language to pick up and learn. You don't have to worry about anything ( or so Sun wants you to think anyway ). java does it's own shitty job of "garbage collection" and such. No pointers, no memory management. My dead grandmother could pick up Java in 1 week. I literally learned more than the fools I worked with at Grid.net in 1 month than they had in 3 years. 14:22:29 And it's god awful slow too... ugh... 14:23:01 and don't even think about writing socket applications with it... you'll think your network has a 300baud connection. 14:23:19 < /rant > 14:23:22 Hehe. 14:23:44 Well, how can you make it without pointers? 14:23:46 lol 14:23:47 That's _all_ the bad things you could say about the libraries? That the sockets are slow? Wow. 14:23:48 * Robert gets curious. 14:24:08 I mean, that's like BASIC ;) 14:24:18 Nothing you write serious software in. 14:24:24 Kitanin: If I wasn't heading home in 30 minutes, I would continue. 14:24:30 Hehe. 14:24:35 Okay. :-) You're forgiven. 14:24:54 djones is at work ? 14:24:59 My main issue with Java is the "garbage collection" crap... I don't trust it. 14:25:03 I440r: yes... 14:25:24 what state ? 14:25:28 Georgia 14:25:45 aha. im in east podunk indiana :) 14:25:48 heh 14:25:55 erm nashville indiana that is :) 14:26:15 i'm in Atlanta 14:26:34 aha 14:26:37 never been 14:27:07 And I'm in Calgary. 14:28:04 I440r: it's a pointless city full of ignorance and whores. So unless you're a party animal club hopper, then you wouldn't like it. hehe. 14:28:31 lol 14:28:49 i think ive been drunk ONCE... does that count ? 14:28:50 djones: Best description of CNN I've ever seen. Bravo. 14:28:53 * Robert lives in a village outside Stockholm. Not too many whores (we barley have streets, heh). 14:28:59 Kitanin: ha! 14:29:09 Kitanin the clinton news network ? 14:29:20 I'm moving to Australia next year... That should be interesting. 14:29:54 I440r: Ayep. 14:30:27 * I440r only watches fox 14:30:31 Oh wow... am I amongst anti-Clinton people? 14:30:36 and listens to rush :) 14:30:44 I440r: seriously? 14:31:15 djones clinton should spend the rest of his life making little ones out of big ones 14:31:24 Wait... What's wrong with Rush? 14:31:30 at levenworth 14:31:36 ruhs is GOOD 14:31:44 tho he does seem to get more full of himself with every show heh 14:31:48 no no... I'm excited... It seems I'm actually amongst conservatives here... 14:32:07 Oh... Sorry. In Canada, Rush is a _band_. Nevermind. 14:32:26 well lets put it this way djones, im not a gun nut, i dont have enough guns to qualify... theres only 45+ handguns here :) 14:32:35 hehe 14:32:37 Kitanin rush limbaugh lol 14:33:01 I love Rush. He's my lunch time listening. 14:33:18 mine too 14:33:20 and Glenn Beck is my morning drive to work listening 14:34:11 It seems extremely rare to find a conservative in the computer field... 14:34:54 * Kitanin listens to Rush and Beck so he _doesn't_ have to think about politics on the trip to work every morning... 14:35:14 well if i was ever a democrap i would have switched the first time i saw clintons face 14:35:23 lol 14:35:33 :P 14:35:59 Devil's haircut, in my mind... 14:36:08 when bush was elected i was tempted to write an email to laura bush saying.. "thank you for puting the LADY back in 'first lady'" 14:37:06 ugh... I can't agree with you more... The composure of Laura in public is so much elegant than that of Hilary... 14:37:19 _more_ 14:37:25 ya 14:37:45 i hope hilary runs for president :) 14:37:51 against bush :) 14:38:04 i'm waiting for the punch line... 14:38:08 ;-) 14:38:12 American presidents are the most famous criminals in the world. 14:38:21 youll see it when the counts are in :) 14:38:28 lol 14:38:32 robert - only clinton 14:38:37 Bleh. 14:38:52 I wouldn't put my life in the hands of your current president either. 14:38:55 Robert: no really... 14:38:57 hehe 14:39:02 i wish bush had more of a backbone tho 14:39:11 Maybe a brain, too. 14:39:15 Oh, well... 14:39:38 He's not a dictator, that's at least something. 14:39:47 hell... I think O'Reilly should run for pres. 14:39:48 Imagine him running the country alone :) 14:39:59 No idea who that is. 14:40:06 Mind explaning? :) 14:40:21 Bill O'Reilly 14:40:24 no 14:40:30 Of the O'Reilly factor 14:40:33 o'reilly wouldnt make a good president 14:40:47 No idea who that is, 14:40:54 I440r: i know... but damn he's a great show host. 14:40:55 i have a few issues with him too heh 14:41:01 Let's vote on... hmmm... Operah :P 14:41:07 djones exactly :) 14:41:07 ha! 14:41:09 so was clinton :P 14:41:30 I440r: I find it hard to believe Clinton was a good anything. 14:41:50 he was a past master liar 14:41:51 besides a good fibber 14:41:54 is 14:41:57 You should only allow people who knew what they were doing to vote, that is, people who don't watch the TV ads ;) 14:42:17 i think we should go back to how the founding fathers had it 14:42:19 Pishtosh... President Jesse Ventura. You know you want it. :-) 14:42:25 lol 14:42:27 the only people who can vote are MEN with property 14:42:31 where property is LAND 14:42:58 well, that would rule me out then. 14:42:58 Yeah, right. 14:43:12 Those damned niggers should stay in their trees in Africa! 14:43:15 djones is a female ???? :) 14:43:24 Uhm 14:43:24 robert. not what i was saying. 14:43:29 I440r: nope... male. with no land. 14:43:30 Maybe he doesn't have land property? 14:43:34 See? 14:43:41 blacks with PROPERTY should also be able to vote 14:43:48 Uhm. 14:43:51 a small one bedroom apt. living around a bunch of liberals. 14:43:55 Back to the 1700s, hooray. 14:44:03 hehe 14:44:06 there were reasons why it was enacted in that way 14:44:06 I440r: How many people withput property are there? 14:44:20 the only people who were allowed to vote were the people who had something to LOSE! 14:44:28 Uhm. 14:44:31 Most people own something. 14:44:47 no 14:44:52 property is LAND 14:44:53 The 0.1% or something who are homeless probably don't vote often anyway. 14:44:56 Heh. 14:45:01 a car is not property by this definition 14:45:02 Err... I have something to lose by voting idiots like Clinton in... 14:45:05 Yeah, good idea, only farmers should vote. 14:45:51 djones he would never have made it in if the damned women who all vote on EMOTION instead of reason 14:46:02 Heh. 14:46:11 You're starting to scare me, dear. 14:46:14 ok ill shut up now :) 14:46:16 I440r: I think there should be aptitude tests for politics.. If you fail, you can't vote. 14:46:30 djones i think washington should be run like indiana 14:46:41 its IMPOSSIBLE to become a career polatition in indiana 14:46:43 95% of the US would fail. the other 5% would vote republican. 14:46:46 you can only serve ONCE 14:47:30 * Robert is scared of the republicans. 14:47:40 Ever read "Garden of Rama" by Arthur C. Clarke? 14:48:02 no i got bored with rondevou with rama (how ever you spell that) 14:48:04 Ever read "I didn't do it" by Bill Clinton? 14:48:08 I have a slight feeling he's slighly ironic against the republicans there. 14:48:22 I440r: Rendez-vouz or something like that. 14:48:41 djones: No, but it sounds like a Bart Simpson quote. 14:49:08 bart simpson lol 14:49:14 Robert: Well... You can pretty much compare the two... The IQ levels are the same atleast. 14:49:24 Hehe. 14:49:28 bullshit - bart is 10 times smarter :) 14:49:31 lol 14:49:57 I'm not so sure your current president is much smarter. 14:50:03 my fear enspiring vicious siberian attack poodle wants to go for a walk 14:50:04 brb 14:50:14 I think of Planet Of The Apes when I hear him talkinh. 14:50:14 talking* 14:50:34 bah... I think Bush is a smart man. He's just a poor public speaker... he gets nervous... I suck at public speaking too... 14:51:36 You can't judge a mans intellect on his public speeches... Judge him on his actions. 14:52:04 Bush has done some stupid shit in his term, but he still remains smarter than Clinton in his higher decisions. 14:52:35 Or... our Minister of finances. 14:58:39 well... I'm off to see the wizard. See you guys later! Thanks for the rundown of Forth I440r. 14:58:53 --- quit: djones ("q") 15:12:14 :) 15:25:16 Hmm... 15:25:45 4gcd 3swap over mod ?dup if gcd ; then ; 15:26:02 Schweet... It worked. :-) 15:26:35 And ChanServ didn't punt me. 15:29:45 * Kitanin wants to write a colorForth system for Knuth's MMIX processor... 15:30:58 Hrm. 15:39:03 Boy, nothing like mentioning forth to kill the conversation in #forth, is there? 15:39:36 Nope. 15:39:53 But... mention C, and you'll have a nice flamewar. 15:40:33 I haven't tried ColorForth yet... I'm color-blind, so the name does frighten me a little bit ;) 15:41:17 And so it should, if you're colour-blind. 15:42:08 (I'm spelling "color" this way, because "colour" looks too french) 15:42:41 :-) 15:42:48 I'm just red-green color-blind, maybe I'll be able to use it ;) 15:42:59 Heard there's a strange keyboard layout also. 15:44:05 Well, the colours in common use are red, green, yellow, magenta, cyan, and white. And yes, Chuck's version does have a custom keyboard layout. 15:47:19 Oop, I have to leave. 15:47:24 --- part: Kitanin left #forth 15:48:39 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 15:49:45 Hi kc5tja. 15:50:22 kc5 do i need to support lds les etc u think ? 15:50:32 I don't. 15:50:37 been as es, ds, ss etc are semi off limits 15:50:40 In a pmode forth? 15:51:04 robert exactly heh 15:51:07 If you were writing a ring-0 level environment for Forth, I'd say "maybe," but for Linux, I see zero need to. 15:51:21 * kc5tja just got back from the doctors, and stopped by the bike shop today. 15:51:25 modifying selectors only makes sense in ring 0 15:51:34 No, it makes sense everywhere. 15:51:36 kc5 ring 0 will be supported eventually :) 15:51:57 Especially when you support a true segmented model of memory management. 15:52:17 err.. i dont :P 15:52:28 except in the future ring 0 support 15:52:32 Then changing selectors doesn't make any sense in ring 0 either. 15:52:36 whih may never happen :) 15:53:09 it MIGHT.... no ? 15:53:36 Only for initialization purposes, and even then, MOV EAX,... MOV DS,AX is used to "set it and forget it." 15:54:13 kernel space uses different selectors for EACH process - each process sees a totally empty address space other than itself and the kernel 15:54:39 ???? 15:54:53 No, you'd use paging to do that, not selectors. 15:55:20 then i probably dont need ANY segment register support at all 15:55:20 ever 15:55:37 Well, except for the simple MOV variety, I'd agree. 15:55:46 why even then ? 15:55:54 For initialization purposes. 15:55:59 what purpose would an application (even in ring 0) have for modifying ds ? 15:56:03 oh 15:56:21 i doubt isforth will ever write anything that initializes linux :) 15:57:08 Hehe. 15:57:42 You're not targeting a self-hosting environment then? 15:58:13 probably not 15:58:35 Ahh. My Forth is going towards self-hosting, so I'm biased towards that direction. 16:05:50 well, the way things are looking right now i dont think ill have an assembler for another 2 or 3 years 16:05:51 fuck 16:08:16 :) 16:08:24 Fight on, solider 16:32:21 --- join: CrowKiller (Forther@64.230.122.72) joined #forth 16:33:13 my net connection is finally stable, i robert: buy an hp48g calculator or the next generation one (hp49? hp59?).. way more programs & games for it than the ti83, and it's got a cooler interface (RPN) and an interesting programming language RPL (and you can get access to the assembler level of the saturn chip) 17:39:28 RPN on a calculator actually results in faster calculating.. much easier to juggle numbers, etc 17:39:37 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.18.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 17:39:50 Sounds cool. 17:39:56 But..how much do they cost? 17:40:04 I saw some HP calculators in Luxembourg. 17:40:08 i440r: http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthassembler.html 17:40:10 They costed like 30 euros. 17:40:33 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:40:41 robert: hp48g = 80 to 100 bucks canadian.. the next generation one is probably around 180 bucks 17:40:49 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-aikido 17:40:59 i have an hp48g and i think i may open it up and add more memory to it 17:40:59 Well, 80 to 100 is OK. 17:41:04 But 180... nah. 17:41:13 Hmm... 17:41:15 80 to 100 = used :D 17:41:20 Bah ;) 17:41:35 I can get a new TI83+ for like $80 17:42:15 I need it for things like the numeric equation solving my old calculator doesn't have. 17:42:23 It's some cheap Casio thing. 17:45:43 --- join: I440r (mark4@63.52.217.187) joined #forth 17:45:56 hi rob, wanna repeat that ? 17:46:02 windows went down HARD 17:48:01 Uhm. 17:48:05 Repead what? 17:48:12 what ever you said a minute ago heh 17:48:15 I was just talking to futhin about HP calculators. 17:48:20 ive no idea what it was thi 17:48:43 no. you or someone else said something to me when i came in here. no sooner did i see the message than windows crapped out on me 17:48:45 had to reboot 17:48:51 couldnt even control alot delete 17:48:58 had to hold power switch in for a few seconds 17:49:23 :-/ 17:49:31 01:05 < I440r> well, the way things are looking right now i dont think ill have 17:49:31 an assembler for another 2 or 3 years 17:49:31 01:05 < I440r> fuck 17:49:31 01:08 < Robert> :) 17:49:31 01:08 < Robert> Fight on, solider 17:49:36 Last thing I said to you. 17:49:50 no. that was ages ago. this just happned 17:50:17 02:40 < futhin> i440r: 17:50:17 http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthassembler.html 17:50:19 That thing? 17:51:08 maybe heh 17:51:11 when was that ? 17:51:32 ugh i cant handle alber van der horst's assemblers 17:51:37 he doesnt HAVE an assembler 17:51:45 he has words that allow YOU to be the assembler 17:51:56 Hmmm... 17:51:57 i.e. you have to know every fucking opcode encoding to use his assembler 17:51:59 fuck that 17:52:09 How do I convert a floating point nr to an integer in gforth? 17:52:13 I want to round it. 17:52:22 MOV, X| T| AH'| D0| [BX+IP] 0 IB, <--- fucking ugly 17:52:32 Hehe 17:52:43 --- quit: CrowKiller ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 17:52:44 x86 instructions are quite complex ;) 17:53:10 So, how do I convert a floating point nr to an integer in gforth? 17:53:41 i440r: http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthassembler.html 17:53:58 i440r: have you actually checked that page? not the assemblers but the solutions and stuff? 17:54:03 and the opcode table? 17:54:13 i dunno 17:54:22 i thought if you had never been to that page, it would be a good url for you 17:54:22 no. its totally incomprehensable 17:54:37 ive looked at it 17:54:50 it helps me " <-- this much 17:54:51 MOV, X| T| AH'| D0| [BX+IP] 0 IB, is very similar to how yours is gonna look ;) 17:54:56 in fact it hinders me 17:55:18 mov ax, 13232 + [eax]+ 2*+ blahblah 17:55:30 or the [ 12341 ] 17:55:32 or whatever 17:55:55 Hmm.. 17:55:56 it's gonna look semi-fucked up anyways.. but it'll still be better than RPN asm 17:56:00 f>d d>s 17:56:06 futhin im not having that 17:56:20 mov eax, [ebx] [ebx] 17:56:36 mov eax, [eax] +N* [ebx] 17:56:46 mov eax, [[ address ]] 17:56:53 to get CONTENTS of address 17:57:04 mov eax, XXX to load an immediate 17:57:11 im going to do away with the # word 17:57:17 no mov eax, # 5 17:57:19 cool 17:57:22 it will be mov eax, 5 17:57:31 looks like you've solve the problems? :) 17:57:40 mov eax, address [ebx] +N* [edx] 17:57:46 i havent solved them 17:57:54 i know what i want. not how to do it 17:59:17 but you've basically figured out how to do it all without parsing.. you've figured out the syntax 17:59:36 and with that syntax, it is possible to not parse at all, and to have it look very nice 17:59:45 so it's a good start ain't it? :) 18:00:00 maybe 18:00:14 im not ready to be coding yet, i need a decent opcode table 18:00:20 thats going to take me MONTHS to generate 18:00:22 yeah 18:03:18 afk 18:31:03 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login1.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 18:31:59 howdy tcn 18:32:01 hey 18:32:21 heh, i thought you don't like forth? :P 18:32:32 yo tcn! 18:32:33 yeah, but I still like the channel 18:33:13 :) 18:33:27 you know, #osdev and #asm are full of little rugrats.. #tunes is a bunch of wishy-washy idealist types.. 18:33:40 ;) 18:33:44 who dont actually PRODUCE anything heh 18:33:55 exactly 18:35:01 :) 18:35:11 no no, #tunes is special. it's full of computer scientist elitists, except for fare ;P 18:35:20 fare is cool :P 18:35:23 yes 18:35:28 fare is cool 18:35:51 yeah, he know forth :) 18:36:28 heh 18:36:40 it seems like the past 2-3 years nothing's happened though 18:36:52 i was gonna talk to fare about that the next time i see him 18:37:54 my fear enspiring vicious siberian attack poodle wants to go walkies again heh 18:38:04 how come that happens when ever you show up tcn ? 18:38:12 brb :) 18:38:21 vicious attack poodle! 18:38:31 you'd better give it a poodle haircut ! 18:49:36 allright 18:50:06 do this in Forth: 18:50:07 circle(cx, cy, r) 18:50:07 int cx, cy, r; 18:50:07 { 18:50:07 int y = r; 18:50:07 int x = 0; 18:50:08 int d = -2*r + 3; 18:50:10 do { 18:50:12 plot(cx+x, cy+y); /* And 7 other octants */ 18:50:14 if (d<0) 18:50:16 d += 4*x + 6 18:50:18 else { 18:50:20 d += 4*(x-y) + 10; 18:50:22 y--; 18:50:24 } 18:50:26 x++; 18:50:28 } while (x != y); 18:50:30 } 18:53:00 I just translated that from assembler, by the way.. and it went pretty straightforward 18:53:22 now I'm translating to Forth and I'm already having to worry about the stack 18:59:22 : circle ( cx cy r ) 18:59:22 0 x ! 18:59:22 dup y ! 18:59:22 -2 * 3 + d ! 18:59:22 begin 18:59:23 2dup y @ + swap x @ + swap plot \ etc.. 18:59:25 d @ dup 0< if 18:59:27 x @ 4 * 6 + 18:59:29 else 18:59:31 x @ y @ - 4 * 10 + + 18:59:33 -1 y +! 18:59:35 then 18:59:37 d ! 18:59:39 1 x +! 18:59:41 until x @ y @ = ; 19:01:20 And I'm thinking.. should I put cx,cy in variables and have x,y on the stack? 19:02:12 where with the C version, I'm done, and if it's too slow I'll use assembler. 19:05:54 back 19:06:24 hey i440r.. I take issue with this: edit compile link debug repeat becomes 19:06:38 edit debug repeat 19:07:22 I just make a script or a makefile that compiles links & runs the program 19:08:45 It probably made more sense to have a seperate compiler & linker on a machine with say 64k RAM 19:10:04 take issue :P 19:10:06 im still right 19:10:13 no matter how you cut it, c sucks 19:10:32 i could make an interactive C compiler 19:10:36 compiling 238497563794652 different source files into as many object files and then LINKING them is FUCKED UP 19:10:50 and #include all the source files 19:11:50 tcn the problem is that those files you are #including will #include 500 other files each of which #include up to the umpteenth level 19:12:02 that's on linux 19:12:10 no 19:12:11 thats c 19:12:14 it has a lousy GNU C library 19:12:22 look at the Small C library 19:13:07 it has about a 10-line stdio.h, and maybe 30 functions 19:13:24 compiles to a few kbytes 19:14:22 heh.. it took Forth to wake me up to what C used to be and SHOULD be.. 19:14:59 :) 19:15:09 c is STILL a bad language, even when done well 19:15:57 it was easier to understand the small-C compiler than Forth 19:16:14 man, that create/does> thing escaped me for a long time 19:17:48 a couple years 19:19:02 i knew how to use it. just not how to implement it 19:19:33 in a month, i can understand how an *optimizing* SC compiler works 19:20:41 tcn: about your circle problem.. ask yourself: what would chuck moore do? how would he code it? 19:21:03 one thing he would do: factor it! 19:21:04 he would just draw a square 19:21:05 heh 19:21:33 maybe you need to factor it and rethink it to get the 3 or 4 line solution 19:21:36 i didn't see any circles in his colorforth 19:22:32 let's see you DO it :) 19:23:22 what's the formula for drawing the circle thru the placement of pixels? drawing a line of pixels in a circle 19:23:41 i suppose i'll have to use sine or something 19:23:42 hm 19:23:45 arctan? 19:23:46 that's slower 19:23:52 sine & cosine 19:24:08 what's slower? the sine & cosine method? 19:24:12 or the line of pixels? 19:24:20 brb 19:24:23 bathroom 19:24:39 you could make sin & cos tables.. it's still slower than the bresenham algorithm I posted 19:26:01 because the multiply by 4 is just a left-shift by 2 19:26:48 a C compiler could put all the variables in registers, too 19:28:23 heh 19:28:38 I've learned a lot from Chuck but I don't like his language :) 19:29:15 what's the brensenham algorithm? 19:29:37 * futhin doesn't like looking at ugly C code.. and that forth code isn't factored :P 19:29:58 s/ugly/unreadable 19:30:11 unless i focus :P 19:30:39 you've already got a plot function or something? :P 19:30:49 c code always turns into 19:30:52 blah 19:30:52 blah blah 19:30:53 blah 19:30:53 plot = putpixel 19:30:59 blah blah 19:31:03 blah blah 19:31:05 blah 19:31:12 so does ans forth 19:31:16 heh 19:31:25 no i440r.. it's 19:31:29 blahblah = *blahblah 19:31:50 do { blah!!!! blah blahhhhhhh blahblahblah blah!} 19:32:00 using painful syntax 19:32:02 this Bresenham guy came up with a bunch of integer graphics routines to plot lines & circles _efficiently_ on computers, without an FPU 19:32:02 ya. same diff 19:32:25 *blah is the same as blah @ 19:32:25 the syntax is too easily unreadable 19:32:44 readable = understandable without having to THINK! 19:32:50 *b++ = b count 19:33:48 tcn: cool, you've already written the first 2 lines of a "Forth for C coders who want to C code in Forth" tutorial 19:33:57 rofl 19:34:05 actually, just point them to ANS forth 19:34:10 they'll be happy with that 19:34:15 did you guys have a tough time with algebra? 19:34:22 ANS Forth = made by C coders 19:34:36 ANS Forth and ANSI C are both junk 19:34:41 has anybody noticed that most ANS forth implementations out there are coded in C? :P 19:34:51 yeah 19:34:56 tcn: it's not the algebra 19:35:08 and at the same time, it IS the algebra i suppose 19:35:12 i dunno 19:35:23 syntax seems to become very unreadable really quickly 19:35:42 there probably are some people who can do Forth but not C.. due to dyslexia etc.. 19:36:07 i dunno.. i had a friend who was dyslexic, who did basic and pascal just fine 19:37:29 i need to see bresenham's algorithm in pseudocode or just a plain math formula.. 19:38:53 fine.. 19:38:54 x=0 19:38:57 y=radius 19:39:19 d = -2*radius + 3 19:39:43 begin loop.. 19:39:49 i dont understand teh +3 or the +10 19:40:01 it's magic :) 19:40:22 lol 19:40:42 which means tcn doesn't understand it eithe 19:40:43 r 19:40:47 i think you use forward differencing 19:42:03 you start with the basic circle equation which you learn in pre-calc or analytic geometry.. take 1 or 2 derivatives on it.. 19:42:31 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:42:43 and probably take some shortcut that works good enough for the 1/8th of a circle 19:42:53 and mirror it 8 ways 19:42:56 * futhin has (re)discovered octants! 19:43:07 yeah i'm reading a site right now :P 19:44:05 see! 19:44:15 heh.. i think you really need to know higher math to know what you're doing w/ 3D graphics 19:44:55 what does d stand for? 19:45:11 delta 19:45:24 you know calculus? 19:45:38 : delta ( radius -- delta ) 2* 3 + ; 19:45:41 yes i know calculus 19:46:31 i took the calculus course with the integrals and the calculus course with the other stuff.. 19:46:33 at university 19:46:38 just two years ago 19:46:45 i think i've forgotten most of that stuff 19:46:50 i should learn more math sometime. i took a year of calc.. no "higher math" really 19:47:10 yeah.. 3-4 years ago :) 19:47:32 those were the "hardest" courses, but the grades i got i managed to get without any effort at all, and putting my effort into the "easy" courses i managed to get worse grades in those 19:47:33 grr 19:48:06 integrals and ??? integration.. and .. something starting with D! 19:48:08 D..... ?? 19:48:13 disintegration ? heh 19:48:14 :P 19:48:19 disintegratives 19:48:27 no.. 19:48:29 uh... 19:48:34 i said it, up there.. 19:48:44 derivatives 19:49:23 integral & disintegration calculus :) 19:49:27 lol 19:49:47 calculus 1 = derivatives 19:49:51 calculus 2 = integrations 19:50:12 i like that stuff.. got mostly A's.. but I like playing music better and I don't really want to go back to college :) 19:50:38 heh.. what country are you in? that's exactly how they do it here 19:50:44 i have a big calculus book, not exactly bedside reading.. i have an applied cryptography book to read first :D 19:50:51 ugh 19:50:51 canada 19:50:59 small wonder :) 19:51:04 you in canada? 19:51:11 massachussetts 19:51:13 19:51:25 hey, applied cryptography is a light reading book 19:51:31 not as light as sci-fi tho 19:51:50 i learned more from the little old calc books 19:52:36 especially the one for kids :) 19:53:06 it should be less light than "assembly language step-by-step" by jeff duntemann.. beautiful book! i read it all without needing to touch a computer, and it focused exclusively on the background of the cpu & memory management, etc.. gave you all the background you needed, and then left it up to you to discover the world of assembly instructions 19:53:40 hm, nice. are y ou doing it? 19:53:50 doing what? asm? 19:53:55 * tcn nods 19:54:23 nope, i'm a lazy coder 19:54:28 i had more fun writing a forth compiler in asm than writing something in forth 19:54:29 i coded a few fragments of stuff 19:54:38 and i wanted to code an editor in asm 19:54:39 heh 19:54:47 what os? 19:54:51 dos 19:55:00 oh, piece of cake 19:55:01 i have been recently looking into building my own forth 19:55:20 been reading byof article and moving forth articles 19:55:43 the minimum number of primitives to code in asm appear to be 9 primitives 19:55:48 i'm working on a linux editor.. you have to use VT100 codes to move text around on the screen.. it's not bad at all 19:56:28 >r r> 1+ 0= nand @ dup! execute exit 19:56:36 CMFORTH is good reading.. 19:56:37 --- join: Fractal (mczk@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 19:56:45 i'm thinking start off with the simplest possible forth implementation 19:56:56 and then start from scratch, make a more complex one 19:57:14 then start from scratch, and make a machineforth implementation in dos 19:57:16 or something like that 19:57:22 and put all these up online 19:57:25 or colorforth 19:57:33 the simplest possible forth implementation coded in asm 19:57:40 that should be useful for other people.. 19:57:41 16 or 32 bit? 19:57:49 ummm 19:57:52 which is simpler? :) 19:57:56 neither 19:58:23 hm 19:58:37 i suppose 32 bit, limit myself to 386 instructions 19:58:57 i did my first one 16 bit so I could use BIOS I/O 19:59:07 hm 19:59:55 you could use DOS I/O to load files 19:59:55 : circle ( radius -- "draws pretty circle" ) .. .. ; 20:00:13 hey, i said simple 20:00:14 : xy ( x y -- "position cursor" ) 20:00:28 now that's what chuck would o 20:00:30 do 20:00:42 the only thing it's gonna be able to do is run, present an interface, and let me code new words in forth 20:00:46 at the begining 20:00:58 well.. 20:00:58 i want to see it as simple as possible 20:01:11 very important 20:01:30 write just enough in asm to compile the rest from a file, in real forth 20:02:15 or %incbin it 20:02:20 what unit is radius in btw? 20:02:27 pixels 20:02:31 okay 20:03:02 how many pixels across the screen are there in 640x480 (dos mode whatever..) 20:03:22 rofl.. 640 20:03:22 80 chars.. 5 pixels per char? 80 x 5 = 400 20:03:25 lol 20:03:41 char are 8x16 20:03:46 oh doh 20:04:06 i'm gonna log off now so you can find this shit out for yourself 20:04:08 how many actual pixels does my 17" monitor have?! :P 20:04:13 yeah 20:04:18 is it an LCD monitor? 20:04:21 nope, crt 20:04:30 then it doesn't have pixels 20:04:34 crappy daytek 20:05:02 ok good, it can support 100000x5000 resolution? :D 20:05:13 with the right video card? 20:05:25 altho there's frequency and all that 20:05:26 the gun scans left to right, back & down, left to right, etc.. the more often it changes colors, the more pixels :) 20:05:51 run for your life! there's a gun in your monitor!! 20:06:05 ok, i'm just being silly here 20:06:12 and diverting myself from higher goals, bwahaha 20:06:16 yeah, it's just like a plasma cutter aimed at your head 20:08:55 i440r: you know the 80x86 opcodes are in an octal format right? 20:09:11 they got that from the PDP-11 i think 20:11:16 tcn: why did you convert your C code directly into forth? instead of coding forth? 20:11:26 (unless you were lazy heh) 20:11:51 i did a few forthy things, as fast as i could 20:12:03 improve it later :) 20:13:09 i'm going to attempt to code it right now 20:13:17 excellent 20:13:18 i'm not going to run it or anything tho 20:13:31 just code it in forth 20:13:40 i mean, it won't match C or asm, but you can do better than my forth 20:13:58 heh, it won't match C? 20:14:23 swap swap dup swap swap dup swap swap dup.. for every friggin pixel 20:14:37 ugh.. stack is illusion :P 20:14:50 you still have to swap & dup 20:15:42 does PLOT exist? 20:15:47 what parameters does it take? 20:15:50 x,y 20:15:56 really it should be inlined 20:16:12 yes, plot should be inlined 20:17:01 it's COLOR @ $A0000 Y @ 640 * X + ! 20:17:04 btw, in my mind, i sense that if the stack is properly taken advantage of in forth, it can be more advantageous than the stack that the C compiler compiles into 20:17:24 : plot color @ .. that stuff? 20:17:31 yeah 20:17:33 what forth? 20:17:48 none in particular 20:18:15 could have a different name.. but like i said i'd just inline it 20:18:24 or code it myself in asm 20:20:00 does that fragment of bresenham code that you have in C only draw the first octant? 20:20:08 and you have to re-call it for each octant? 20:20:13 even Small C has a few types.. char, int, and pointer.. and constant/variable/function.. so it "knows" the difference and generates pretty optimal code.. to forth, everything is an int 20:20:20 plot(cx+x, cy+y) 20:20:24 yup, for every octant 20:20:27 k 20:20:38 plot (cx-x, cy+y) 20:20:43 plot (cx-x, cy-y) 20:20:45 etc.. 20:20:50 or inline it :) 20:21:14 i imagine that chuck moore would come up with a wayy better way to do it than me.. he might even figure out how to do it without any IFs 20:21:48 heh 20:22:24 well, in asm.. say d is in EDX, just OR EDX,EDX JS .. 20:22:45 or TEST EDX,EDX since that's faster on the pentium :) 20:23:29 oh, if you have asm code to do the 1st octant, i wouldn't mind seeing that 20:24:16 http://retro.tunes.org/pub/retro4b.zip -- in the file g8.1 20:24:16 eh 20:24:23 um 20:24:29 in the c code 20:24:33 asm 20:24:35 the stuff is initialized 20:24:40 oops 20:24:43 and plot is called right away 20:24:51 x = 0 20:24:56 and plot is called right away? 20:24:59 yeah 20:25:06 doesn't actually draw anything tho? 20:25:06 at the beginning of each loop 20:25:25 try it on graph paper 20:25:38 with r=3 or so 20:26:15 x is 0 20:26:27 so nothing is drawn at the very begining 20:26:36 but y=r 20:26:36 ? 20:26:50 but x = 0 20:26:59 unless pixels start at 0 and not 1 20:27:13 x starts at 0 and goes up, y starts at r and goes down, till they meet halfway 20:27:30 just try it on paper 20:31:39 i've drawn out the graph cause i got no graph paper 20:32:16 that'll do 20:32:44 i hope 10x10 will do for a radius of 3? 20:32:53 heh 20:33:21 heh 20:33:22 yeah 20:33:34 you'd think so 20:39:40 did you run your forth circle code and it didn't work? 20:40:22 nm 20:41:50 didn't try it.. but the asm one in retro4 works. 20:46:03 the delta within the circle function doesn't appear affect X or Y ? what is the delta used for by the function that calls circle? 20:46:35 heh.. it just determines when to decrement y 20:46:44 yeah 20:46:53 you ask too many questions 20:47:21 why do I answer 20:47:48 it took me awhile to figure that circle algorithm out but I did it myself 20:48:01 pretty clever though, isn 20:48:03 't it 20:48:12 anyway.. goodnight 20:48:16 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 20:48:29 tcn did you look at my breshenham line drawing code i gave you in those asm sources i sent ? 20:49:00 heh 20:49:14 bah, just because i missed the y-- decrement within the delta stuff 20:49:20 it's late and i'm dumb :P 20:51:10 because of the lateness & lack of proper nutrition from living away from my parents for 3 years ;P 20:52:48 i440r: why would he want to look at your asm code? he has is own asm code, he was mostly interested in bresenham drawing in forth 21:11:18 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:12:39 lol 21:12:47 im outa here, gotta log out and SLEEP! 21:12:56 --- quit: I440r () 21:52:29 : drawoctant ( radius -- ) 21:52:29 0 swap 21:52:29 dup 2* 3+ delta ! 21:52:29 begin 21:52:29 2dup plot 21:52:30 delta @ 0< if 21:52:32 swap dup 2* 2* 6 + 21:52:34 else 21:52:36 2dup - 2* 2* 10 + 21:52:38 swap 1- swap 21:52:40 then 21:52:42 delta ! 21:52:44 swap 1+ swap 21:52:46 until ; 21:58:43 for the logs: 21:58:50 it's better to have x and y on the stack 21:58:57 do cx and cy separately 21:58:59 like 21:59:53 : plot cy @ + swap cx @ + swap plot ; 22:44:58 --- nick: kc-aikido -> kc5tja 23:01:31 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:32:52 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.19