00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.13
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05:58:23 <Serg_penguin> hi
05:58:31 <cleverdra> hello Serg
05:59:08 <Serg_penguin> i was playing max payne yesterday, now will suck filez...
05:59:22 * cleverdra nods.
05:59:52 <cleverdra> I got on maybe a minute before you; sucking files is my plan for today, too =)
06:01:17 <Serg_penguin> isForth gone to hdd
06:01:24 <Serg_penguin> next thing u advice ?
06:01:54 <cleverdra> next Forth?  You might also try gforth and PFE
06:11:09 <onetom> hi
06:11:32 <cleverdra> hello onetom
06:12:12 * onetom has just finished w reading 1xForth 4 the 2nd time. its more blushing and confusing than it was 4 the 1st time....
06:12:42 <onetom> Serg_penguin: uve just left yesterday when i was just about
06:12:56 <onetom> 2 advice u bigFORTH and TILE
06:13:45 <onetom> tile is a perl. not just structure wise but example&doc wise too
06:26:05 <Serg_penguin> i back
06:30:34 <Serg_penguin> TILE can't be found - too many tiles on inet
06:30:57 <Serg_penguin> bigforth is taken
06:35:10 <cleverdra> you should be able to find TILE off of forth.sf.net or forth.org
06:36:29 <cleverdra> http://www.taygeta.com/forthcomp.html doesn't have tile, but has some others
06:37:08 <cleverdra> http://www.taygeta.com/networking/forthnet.html has TCP/IP interfaces for PFE and ThisForth.
06:37:25 * cleverdra doesn't understand that last URL's licensing agreement thing at all.  Has anyone looked at that?
06:38:53 <Serg_penguin> damn the proxes ! my ftp is broken !!! provider's squid goddam it !!!!
06:38:55 <cleverdra> for gforth you can access the libc interfaces easily enough.  It's about as easy to access library functions in gforth as it is for isforth to access linux syscalls -- but it's terribly difficult for either to do either, at least so far as I can tell.
06:39:10 <cleverdra> serg - ack!
06:40:00 <Serg_penguin> hands of their tech men are growing out of the WRONG PLACE
06:40:50 <onetom> Serg_penguin: dl tile from me. coz it rocks!
06:41:32 <onetom> Serg_penguin: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz
06:41:38 <onetom> its just ~300k
06:52:17 <Serg_penguin> nexd day ! run like hell - seeking 4 job !
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09:33:03 <futhin> good morning all
09:35:10 <cleverdra> o/~ good morning Mr. Futhin o/~
09:39:36 <futhin> howdy cleverdra :)
09:39:55 <futhin> the code you sent me for your forth mud client was pretty nice looking :)
09:40:30 <cleverdra> Really?  I'm glad.
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09:40:54 <futhin> it was for gforth right ?
09:41:12 <futhin> or some other forth?   linux forth ?
09:41:20 <cleverdra> I usually don't comment code at all; I used to do incredible commenting on my Ruby code; reading I440r's sources got me into the mood to do that kind of commenting, I guess.
09:41:24 <cleverdra> futhin - that was for isForth
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09:42:08 <futhin> oh, smudcl?
09:42:11 <cleverdra> futhin - in gforth it'd be a little different, since you'd use libc
09:42:19 <futhin> you coded it pretty recently then ?
09:43:22 <cleverdra> futhin - right before I, deleting some more serverish socketcalls, decided that I'd much rather recreate (it was first born in Perl, then in Ruby, then in others) my Ultimate Mud Client, and then realized that isForth didn't have ALLOCATE RESIZE FREE.
09:43:49 <cleverdra> futhin - I'd say a little more than a week ago, maybe -- no, two weeks.
09:44:08 <futhin> cleverdra:  it has allocate resize free now
09:44:15 <futhin> but i440r hasn't released it yet i don't think
09:44:43 <cleverdra> no, he hasn't >:(
09:45:17 <futhin> should be soonish :P
09:45:58 * cleverdra is currently on a dylan/lisp/scheme/prolog track though, and may return to Forth after a month or so.
09:45:59 <futhin> i'll ask him about it..  he shouldn't need to the finish the assembler before releasing the next version..
09:46:17 <futhin> what kind of track is that? :)
09:46:27 <futhin> what are you doing with those langs
09:47:23 <cleverdra> Right now, I'm just playing with them.  Trying to get a Common Lisp.  I'll probably write my Ultimate Mud Client in a scheme.
09:48:13 <cleverdra> anyway, what did you think of the IP>n part of smudcl? =)
09:48:36 <cleverdra> is that the well-commented one that explained why I didn't have hostname>IP?
09:48:43 <futhin> you don't want to write your ultime mud client in forth ?
09:48:47 <cleverdra> (and how hostname>IP would be done)
09:49:58 <futhin> yeah it's neat
09:50:20 <cleverdra> futhin - I may do that.  It was just too irritating, trying to fit it into a static memory model.  Just the brush with attempting to implement it helped me in ways (Forth is *fantastic* for textual interfaces)...
09:50:48 <cleverdra> where the last and next-to-last 'it's are the Ultimate Mud Client.
09:51:00 <futhin> but you can get dynamic memory eventually...
09:51:31 <futhin> i440r has implemented most of the dynamic memory management stuff..
09:51:59 * cleverdra nods.
09:52:23 <futhin> your code is quite nice..  most of the words are within 2 lines
09:52:31 <futhin> except for your s>ip stuff
09:52:34 <cleverdra> It's a matter of irrationality, a deep kind of annoyance, and momemtum.
09:52:49 <futhin> i was wondering why you didn't try to factor your s>ip stuff.. some of them are 4 lines, and a little obfuscated
09:52:51 <cleverdra> oh, I meant s>ip earlier.
09:53:36 <cleverdra> futhin - hm?  Do you mean the IP-checker or the string-to-ip or the ( n1 n2 n3 n4 )-to-IP?
09:53:40 <futhin> i am fairly lazy when it comes to reading other people's sources..  i expect them to be easily readable and fully understandable
09:53:56 <futhin> the ip checker.. the syntax checker
09:54:25 <cleverdra> ah.  Yes, that's a little complex.
09:54:32 <futhin> the rest of your code is great..  but your s>ip stuff are 4 lines..  some of the stuff could be factored out i hope
09:55:07 <cleverdra> When I return to that I'll probably implement Julian Noble's FSM system in IsForth, and then use that.
09:55:07 <futhin> like "dup '0' '9' between"  can already be factored out of two of the s>ip state testers..
09:55:16 <futhin> FSM ?
09:55:22 <cleverdra> Finite-State-Machine
09:55:28 <cleverdra> it's a very nice syntax.
09:56:00 <cleverdra> futhin - really?  I thought I only used that once, and that the other one was only deceptively similar.  Yes, I should've factored those.
09:56:26 <cleverdra> : ascii#? ( c -- f ) '0' '9' between ;
09:56:43 <cleverdra> : e[0,9]? ( n -- f ) 0 9 between ;
09:56:45 <futhin> i thought the finite-state-machine article was just about mathematicy stuff instead of actually having practical use :P
09:57:06 <cleverdra> futhin - um, the syntax-checker is a finite state machine =)  Don't you see the comments, that describe each state?
09:57:20 <futhin> yeah :)
09:58:00 <futhin> what's a state machine?  i'm just interested in hearing you describe it in one sentence :P
09:58:11 <cleverdra> It turns out that once you use a state machine, really implement one, you discover that there are all kinds of uses for them =)
09:58:28 <futhin> hrmmm
10:00:27 <cleverdra> A state machine, so far as I understand it, is a system which A) has a state variable, B) has (maybe very different) operations depending on the value of that variable, and C) has implicit or explicit changes to that variable within the state-specific operations.
10:00:43 <cleverdra> There are different ways to describe it.
10:01:34 <cleverdra> hm, let me go get my troff-in-gforth.  It was just something that I wrote when I didn't have groff and when I wanted to be able to at least read a few man files.
10:01:58 <futhin> i'll read the "finite state machines in forth" article now that i know finite state machines can be useful in coding :)
10:02:22 <futhin> gtg, bbl
10:04:53 <cleverdra> OK, bye.  (and I just got back)
10:05:11 <cleverdra> (that is, "and I just got back.  grumble.")
10:05:28 <kc5tja> Heh.
10:05:32 <kc5tja> I'll be leaving for work very soon.
10:06:05 <cleverdra> bye yourself, then =)
10:06:47 <cleverdra> mm, what is futhin's email?
10:06:58 <kc5tja> Don't know.
10:07:18 <cleverdra> It'll have to wait then.
10:07:40 <kc5tja> You can try to use memoserv on this network.
10:08:00 <cleverdra> oh!  nifty.
10:08:25 <cleverdra> Thank you.
10:08:36 <kc5tja> np
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10:09:20 <cleverdra> (I can't use it though; I've lost my password)
10:10:09 <kc5tja> ?
10:10:19 <kc5tja> You have to be a registered user to use it?
10:10:32 <kc5tja> I know the recipient needs to be registered...but I didn't know the sender had to be.
10:13:04 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'll be back in about 30 to 45 minutes.
10:13:09 <cleverdra> OK.
10:13:27 <cleverdra> I'll be here for a little less than four hours.
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10:53:13 <cleverdra> Welcome back!
10:53:29 <cleverdra> What does your quit-message mean?
11:02:25 <kc5tja> THX QSO == Thanks for the contact
11:02:27 <kc5tja> ES == and
11:02:45 <kc5tja> 73 == Talk with you later
11:02:50 <kc5tja> DE == This is...
11:02:57 <kc5tja> KC5TJA/6 == KC5TJA/6
11:03:14 <kc5tja> CL ES QRT == Clear and no longer monitoring.
11:03:28 <kc5tja> Whoops.
11:03:45 <kc5tja> I forgot about AR SK == End transmission, and again, no longer transmitting.
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11:32:02 <cleverdra> welcome back, and thanks for the translation.  Is that shortwave radio?
11:32:13 <kc5tja_> Ham radio.
11:32:34 <kc5tja_> It's actually ancient military codes.  :-)
11:33:05 <kc5tja_> But the amateur radio community adopted it as pretty much standard lingo.  It's not used quite that heavily for voice communications, but for data (including morse code), they're used pretty much like that.
11:33:13 <cleverdra> ah.
11:33:45 <cleverdra> How ancient are they?
11:33:56 <kc5tja_> WWI and WWII era.
11:35:18 <cleverdra> Oh =)  I was thinking, for some reason, of Romans (in the face of such as CL QRT AR SK)
11:37:35 <kc5tja_> Nope.  The AR is really a "prosign" -- it's really one character, not two.  .-.-. is how you'd transmit it, instead of .-  .-. .  Ditto for SK: ...-.- instead of ... -.-
11:38:02 <kc5tja_> Usually, /AR is how you'd write it, but since this is IRC, I don't really care that much.  :)
11:39:14 <kc5tja_> OK, this network connectivity bullcrap is really getting on my nerves.  As in, *really* getting on my nerves.  
11:39:38 * kc5tja_ is seriously considering establishing a radio link between his house and work, just so I can reliably stay online.
11:42:37 * kc5tja_ considers setting up a 175kHz beacon at work to see if there is any sort of propegation between work and my house.
11:43:12 <cleverdra> what do you mean, propagation?
11:43:18 <kc5tja_> Radio is light.
11:43:35 <kc5tja_> And like light, a receiving station can be in a shadow left by a large object (e.g., a mountain).
11:44:18 <kc5tja_> Or, a receiver can be sitting in a spot that happens to be in the path of a reflection (this is how world-wide communications occurs on the 40m shortwave/amateur band).
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11:44:44 <kc5tja_> Atmospheric effects also affect propegation -- clouds can scatter radio waves just right or just wrong.
11:45:04 * cleverdra nods.
11:45:18 <kc5tja_> Humidity changes the air's index of refraction, which can make or break the establishment of a two-way signal path (you'll often see one-way paths).
11:45:22 <kc5tja_> Lots of factors.
11:45:59 <kc5tja_> The nice thing about 175kHz is you don't need a license to use it if you work with just 1W of effective radiated power or less.
11:45:59 <Jagos> what's the heck are you talking about?
11:46:01 <kc5tja_> However, bandwidths are so long that it's very, very difficult to even get that.
11:48:22 <cleverdra> Jagos - kc5tja is thinking about setting up a radio link between his house and work.
11:48:36 <kc5tja_> Sorry, lost network connectivity again... *sigh*
11:48:59 * kc5tja_ is an amateur radio operator, and I'm thinking of establishing an RF link between work and here.
11:49:03 <kc5tja_> err
11:49:03 <kc5tja_> between here and my box at home.
11:49:05 * kc5tja_ is already at work.
11:49:41 <cleverdra> Your work connection is weaker than your home connection?
11:49:45 <kc5tja_> Because right now, I'm having to log in to the network every 30 seconds.
11:50:01 <kc5tja_> (give or take a minute)
11:50:54 <kc5tja_> No, but the frame cloud between work and home is definitely having routing issues.
11:51:12 <kc5tja_> And I'm getting sick of it very rapidly.
11:52:50 * cleverdra nods.
11:56:00 <kc5tja_> The only problem with 175kHz is the long wavelengths makes making an efficient antenna next to impossible.
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11:56:26 <kc5tja_> The wavelength for 175kHz is 1750m (roughly).
11:56:40 <kc5tja_> 1714m actually
11:57:07 <kc5tja_> So an efficient antenna would be 857m long.  Clearly impractical.
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11:57:45 <kc5tja_> But a wide-open tuned circuit with high efficiency (though horribly inefficient in comparison to 857m long antenna) would work well enough, I suspect.
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12:00:59 <kc5tja> Yes.
12:01:06 <kc5tja> Hopefully, I'll stay this time.
12:01:21 <kc5tja> err
12:01:25 <kc5tja> yeah.
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15:16:00 <futhin> howdy
15:17:03 <Robert> futhin :)
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15:30:29 <futhin> sup robert
15:32:43 * Robert purrs.
15:35:03 <futhin> ah, you are now a cat
15:36:19 <Robert> Yeah.
15:36:23 <Robert> Satisfy me.
15:37:35 * futhin feeds robert some forth kibbles
15:40:23 <onetom> hi
15:40:38 <futhin> hihi onetom :)
15:41:54 * onetom is done w readin http://ultratechnology.com/fsc98.htm (FreeSideChat98)
15:42:05 <onetom> thats also an amazing stuff
15:42:48 <onetom> and how simply can chuck talk about processor design... phew...
15:43:09 <futhin> re-reading all the content on ultratechnology frequently is a good idea to keep the ideas fresh and the philosophy strong :)
15:43:41 <onetom> dont u know by chance what does an F21 cost?
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15:44:16 <onetom> futhin: yeah, thats absolutey what ive experienced today
15:44:33 <futhin> onetom:  F21 costs 100 to 150 USD 
15:44:39 <onetom> i was even more pissed off after readin 1xForth 4 the 2nd time
15:44:48 <onetom> futhin: thx
15:44:54 <futhin> Patriot Science (ptsc.com) sells forthchips for 15 bucks
15:45:07 <futhin> i think they are novix or some really simple forthchip, not sure..
15:45:36 <onetom> c. thx
15:48:15 <futhin> i'll email patriot science again
15:49:24 <futhin> If you only want to buy one, .35 stack based
15:49:24 <futhin> > microprocessor, it will cost $15.
15:49:32 <{jamc}> futhin: they're pretty advanced IIRC... atleast compared to chuck's stuff :)
15:51:40 --- nick: {jamc} -> jamc
15:52:25 <futhin> jamcs: that cannot be true
15:52:48 <futhin> from what i've heard, _all_ stack based microprocessors out there _are_ forth chips..
15:52:59 <futhin> and chuck moore would be at the cutting edge of that technology
15:53:40 <jamc> I meant "advanced" in the bad sense... i.e. packed with features :)
15:56:02 <futhin> ah..
15:56:54 <jamc> anyway... it was some time ago I checked... before their web site turned completely worthless
15:58:43 <futhin> yeah
15:58:51 <futhin> their site is lousy
15:59:30 <jamc> not one datasheet in sight
16:03:23 <jamc> aah... found one!
16:05:22 <jamc> http://64.186.225.66/download/IGNITE_Processor_Reference_Manual.pdf
16:09:00 <futhin> ah cool
16:09:30 <jamc> it says you need to register... but it seems to work w/o it :)
16:24:47 * jamc goes to bed
16:25:26 <Fractal> "It's kind of pathetic actually that we are all sitting here talking about Forth. It is not the wave of the future." -Chuck Moore, creator of Forth.
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16:27:13 <onetom> Fractal: yeah :) ive jst read it yesterday
16:28:31 <onetom> that ignite proc is a transition from conventional structure 2 the stack concept
16:36:53 <kc5tja> Wow.  I managed to crash Internet Explorer by merely deleting a file from the desktop.
16:36:57 <kc5tja> I am God.
16:37:00 <kc5tja> What can I say?
16:37:25 <Robert> Uhm.
16:37:35 <Robert> I managed to crash X by moving the mouse.
16:37:52 * Robert is proud.
16:38:04 <futhin> fractal:  who cares if it is not the wave of the future?  "wave of the future" is meaningless :P
16:38:12 <futhin> and chuck moore is one discouraged guy
16:40:07 <kc5tja> Robert: I've never had X crash on me in the decade that I've been using it.
16:40:56 <Robert> kc5tja: Well, remove some RAM, install Gnome, and maybe even you will experience an X crash.
16:44:26 <kc5tja> Nope
16:44:31 <kc5tja> Done that.
16:46:02 <Robert> Awwww :-(
16:46:17 <Robert> I guess X doesn't love me, then.
16:46:40 <kc5tja> I have had applications crash UNDER X, and that caused me to restart X to clean up the state of the system (most notably, Netscape and Mozilla), but I've never had X itself crash on me.
16:47:21 <kc5tja> But, oh well.  It doesn't much matter.  I still dislike X because it's big, it's bloated, and it is high time for a redesign.
16:53:19 <Robert> Amen.
17:12:02 <futhin> i like how the QNX photon gui is smaller and modular..
17:12:42 <kc5tja> I don't like how it's patented.
17:14:09 <futhin> heh
17:14:15 <futhin> yeah..
17:14:22 <futhin> what parts are patentened?
17:14:33 <futhin> the modularity part?
17:14:52 <kc5tja> Everything
17:15:03 <futhin> like i've read that dell computers have their business model patented,  i don't like that because anybody can develop a system..
17:15:20 <futhin> anybody could develop a similar system that dell computers has
17:15:32 <futhin> with the pre-selling and all that
17:16:03 <futhin> i heard that microsoft patented a fragment of assembly code
17:16:20 <futhin> using SHLD or some mnemonic that is similar (i forget the exact spelling)
17:17:30 <futhin> kc5tja:  patriot science sells ShBoom or IGNITE forth chips for 15 bucks a piece
17:17:48 <futhin> what do you think kc5tja?
17:20:07 <futhin> lol, IGNITE has a 16 deep ADDRESSABLE stack
17:20:31 <futhin> er..  that's for the return stack tho
17:23:20 <kc5tja> Perhaps they did.  But I doubt it'll stand up in court.
17:23:41 <kc5tja> What do I think of what?
17:24:25 <kc5tja> $15 is expensive for a low-end CPU these days.  To become competitive with processors like the 6502 or 68000, it needs to drop down to the $5 range.
17:25:30 <futhin> eh? ShBoom is a slow forth chip?
17:25:45 <kc5tja> I didn't say it was.
17:25:58 <futhin> you said it was low-end .. 
17:26:00 <kc5tja> What is its performance compared to a PowerPC, though?
17:26:38 <kc5tja> Low-end doesn't necessarily mean slow.  MIPS is anything but slow, but they're almost exclusively used as low-end CPUs today, because they lack the features of a desktop class CPU.
17:28:04 <futhin> how are we supposed to know if a forthchip is competitive with a pentium chip, provided it is programmed in forth with a forth os that uses modern os design techniques..
17:28:43 <futhin> what do you think about making that forthchip desktop computer with ShBoom chips (to start of with)  instead of 25X chips..
17:28:50 <futhin> 15 bucks is a lot cheaper than 150 bucks..
17:29:13 <kc5tja> Well, how many instructions per second does it execute?
17:29:42 <kc5tja> It's a possibility; I don't know anything at all about the ShBoom's hardware interface requirements.
17:31:28 <futhin> let me check how many instructions per second it executes
17:31:48 <futhin> how many instructions per second do the F21/P21 execute?
17:31:50 <futhin> or 25X?
17:34:15 <kc5tja> 500
17:34:18 <kc5tja> 500 million rather.
17:34:25 <kc5tja> 25X is 25 times that.
17:34:57 <futhin> yeah okay, i remember "500 mips"
17:38:44 <futhin> kc5tja:  hrm, i am looking around the patriot science site, trying to find some mention of clock speed..   if they don't say anything about "mips" what words will they use?
17:38:56 <kc5tja> Instructions per second.
17:39:02 <kc5tja> Cycle count
17:39:04 <kc5tja> etc.
17:39:13 <futhin> does IOBs mean anything to you?
17:39:14 <kc5tja> Instruction timing, etc.
17:39:15 <futhin> or slices?
17:39:24 <kc5tja> Yes, but it's not pertinent.
17:39:39 <futhin> yeah
17:40:06 <futhin> hrmmmm
17:40:09 <futhin> it says 350 mips
17:40:13 <onetom> futhin: or they r simply talkin about the clock speed / frequency
17:40:18 <futhin> http://64.186.225.66/download/IGNITE_Processor_ASIC__Data_Sheet.pdf
17:40:25 <kc5tja> I can't check now.  I'm busy.
17:40:28 <kc5tja> (work)
17:40:41 <kc5tja> They should say though.
17:40:41 * onetom hardly believes, kc ;)
17:40:57 <kc5tja> onetom: http://www.hifn.com <-- the company I work for.
17:41:00 <futhin> kc5tja:  yeah,  looks like 350 mips or maybe a bit less
17:41:06 <kc5tja> onetom: Whether you choose to believe it or not is not of my concern.
17:41:53 <onetom> multigigabit :D
17:42:44 <futhin> kc5tja: i think onetom was remarking that you are very active on here even while at work, which is very nice :)
17:42:58 <onetom> superastonishingmarvelousmulticolorextrafantastic2000
17:43:17 <kc5tja> Well, I'm really trying to figure out why this test isn't working, and it's definitely not hardware related.
17:43:32 <onetom> futhin: absolutely. thx 4 hte explanation :)
17:44:07 --- join: Jagos (hamster@213-99-65-42.uc.nombres.ttd.es) joined #forth
17:45:07 <futhin> :)
17:45:10 <futhin> hello jagos
17:45:20 <Jagos> hello xD
17:45:43 <futhin> are you new to this channel?
17:45:49 <futhin> discovering forth? ;)
17:46:32 <futhin> onetom: you there?
17:46:54 <Jagos> yeah
17:46:59 * kc5tja cries
17:47:09 <Jagos> i became interested in forth after reading this article http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/94-01-084
17:47:59 <Jagos> my hobby is to program obsolete video consoles
17:48:07 <futhin> jagos: you know about forth chips right ?
17:48:14 <Jagos> no
17:48:22 <Jagos> i know nothing about forth
17:48:43 <onetom> kc5tja: nice products. what kind of processors r those? imean how r they programmed? direct VHDL? wont believe :)
17:48:45 <Jagos> i know that it has rare stacks and inverse notation
17:49:36 <Jagos> can forth beat c in performance?
17:49:43 <futhin> jagos:  well you'll be pleased to hear that Chuck Moore (the inventor of Forth) went on to create Forth Chips.   on the forthchips, the assembly language _is_ forth :)
17:49:58 <futhin> they are stack based chips, instead of register-based
17:50:03 <Jagos> wow
17:50:07 <Jagos> :)
17:50:33 <futhin> very nice,  results in simpler code..  
17:50:45 <futhin> chuck moore is very hardcore about simplicity :P
17:51:15 <kc5tja> onetom: ???
17:51:17 <futhin> jagos: lemme give you an url to a website..
17:51:25 <futhin> kc5tja: he's asking about the hifn products
17:51:31 <kc5tja> onetom: You program the chips the same way you program any other chip.
17:51:43 <kc5tja> onetom: via registers in memory or I/O space.
17:52:06 <kc5tja> VHDL is a hardware description language; you use that to actually make the chips.
17:52:07 <onetom> kc5tja: the processors manufactured by the company u work 4
17:52:20 <kc5tja> onetom: See my previous three posts.
17:52:27 <onetom> kc5tja: sure sure
17:53:12 <onetom> kc5tja: my question is: r those CPUs or just "parameterizable" chips
17:55:15 <kc5tja> onetom: They are processors -- they cannot be a CPU because they do not govern the operation of the motherboard.  However, they're not Turing complete either.  
17:55:30 <kc5tja> onetom: Their purpose is to process network packets.
17:55:34 <kc5tja> No more, no less.
17:55:50 <onetom> so u cant write lil programs 4 them, right?
17:55:55 <kc5tja> For speed, many features are implemented in fully custom hardware.
17:56:23 <onetom> just set some datatables in them and then feed the stream
17:56:36 <onetom> feed them w the date stream
17:56:41 <kc5tja> No, you can also program them with an instruction sequence too.
17:56:41 <onetom> c
17:56:50 <kc5tja> I can't explain the chips.
17:57:03 <kc5tja> These chips have over 5 million transistors, all of which are accounted for.
17:57:45 <futhin> jagos: http://sempiternity.org/forth/
17:58:08 <kc5tja> onetom: Basically, we use dedicated hardware when a feature is constant across all packet formats.
17:59:52 <Jagos> thanks futhin :)
18:00:29 <futhin> jagos:  it's an intro website i'm working on, i appreciate all feedback about the design of the website
18:00:51 <futhin> jagos: right now, it is only good for the links it has
18:01:04 <kc5tja> However, whether it's dedicated hardware or not doesn't determine whether or not it's a processor.
18:01:56 <onetom> Jagos: what consoles r u tryin 2 program?
18:02:37 <onetom> Jagos: and what kind of programming experience do u have?
18:02:46 <Jagos> i have programmed gba, gb, snes & nes
18:02:53 <Jagos> look this, http://www.gbadev.org/compo.html
18:03:03 <onetom> so Z80 is 1 of ur firneds :)
18:03:05 <Jagos> i have programmed the fifth game with the name "Simonchu"
18:03:12 <Jagos> yeah, z80 rules
18:03:13 <onetom> in asm?
18:03:53 <Jagos> simonchu is for the gba, it was programmed in c/asm with gnu tools
18:04:05 <Jagos> but i don't like the gba very much, as it can be programmed in c
18:04:19 <Jagos> i like old consoles more, which used to be programmed only in asm
18:04:40 <onetom> ugh... what kind of gameboy is that? it has tonns of colors!
18:04:46 <kc5tja> Z-80 actually is quite a sucky processor.
18:04:48 <Jagos> hehehe
18:04:52 <kc5tja> It's one of the slowest CPUs you can have.
18:05:09 <futhin> kc5tja: but it was simple and easy to understand wasn't it?
18:05:15 <kc5tja> No
18:05:24 <kc5tja> It's an Intel 8080 with a lot of additional opcodes thrown in.
18:05:31 <kc5tja> It's VERY non-orthogonal.
18:05:51 <futhin> what does orthogonal mean in this context?  
18:05:58 <kc5tja> Irregular
18:06:02 <onetom> Jagos: why did u do the programming in C if u r an asm enthusiast?
18:06:05 <onetom> est
18:06:28 <futhin> jagos: do you have a cool GBA programming job? ;P
18:06:49 <Jagos> because arm7tdmi (gba processor) is a risc processor which likes to be designed for c compiler output :P
18:07:01 <onetom> futhin: oh, how envious r u 2 any1 w a job ;p
18:07:11 <Jagos> futhin after i made that game several companies asked me for a job
18:07:25 <futhin> jagos: nice! :)
18:07:26 <Jagos> but I'm studing at the moment
18:07:29 <futhin> ah
18:07:34 <onetom> how sad :)
18:07:42 <futhin> heh :P
18:07:43 <Jagos> I'm very lazy to work in a company
18:07:50 <onetom> then study FORTH! :)
18:07:54 <Jagos> I like to program on my own
18:07:58 <Jagos> yeah
18:08:00 <Jagos> :D
18:08:06 <onetom> just like most of the programmers ;)
18:08:24 <futhin> you still gotta make some money to survive at some point in time unless you successfully choosed rich parents ;P
18:08:27 <onetom> imean... i was refering 2 lazyness
18:09:03 <futhin> nahhh,  there are actually forth coders that code,  they just don't announce it on this channel ;P
18:09:18 <onetom> personally, i prefer team (2or3 individuals) programming over programming in solo
18:09:18 <futhin> or hang on this channel
18:09:31 <futhin> yeah.. same here
18:09:36 <Jagos> futhin I'm from a little town of Spain, in which the nearest game company is at 1000 kilometers
18:09:44 <onetom> coz it makes me more productive
18:09:58 <futhin> when i see the other guy being productive, i have to be productive also or i'll feel ashamed
18:10:16 <onetom> and forces me 2 make the job done not 2 delay the others
18:10:43 <onetom> and having ppl 2 discuss ideas and problems and even solutions
18:10:58 <onetom> is always a great help
18:11:00 <futhin> jagos:  you want to program in a HLL for z-80 or some other processor?  what processors do the old consoles use? (the old consoles you want to program)
18:11:17 <futhin> onetom: yup
18:11:24 * kc5tja has a great deal of difficulty reading abbreviations that onetom is using...
18:11:27 <Jagos> snes use a 65c816 (16-bit 6502)
18:11:31 <futhin> onetom: what about pair programming over the internet
18:11:36 * kc5tja has 7 65816 chips.
18:11:43 <kc5tja> Ordered from WDC directly.
18:11:46 <Jagos> although i'm thinking if a forth interpreter for the gba would be interesting
18:11:50 <kc5tja> Also have 3 65C22s too.
18:11:55 <Jagos> whoa!
18:12:21 <Jagos> do you have the official assembler & c compiler from western design center???
18:12:27 <kc5tja> No.
18:12:31 <Jagos> ouch
18:12:37 <kc5tja> Why ouch?  
18:12:38 <onetom> kc5tja: dont worry. u gonna get in2 the habit of decoding that. others on this channels have already succeeded in that ;p
18:12:39 <Jagos> i have the official 65816 assembler from nintendo
18:12:44 <Jagos> but is all in japanese
18:13:06 * kc5tja can write my own assembler.
18:13:06 <Jagos> :P
18:13:06 <Jagos> there are several free assemblers too
18:13:09 * kc5tja has the data sheets and documentation for the chips, so it won't be too hard.
18:13:12 <onetom> kc5tja: btw, aint u a radio amateur? u have 2 b familiar w abbrevd "speech"
18:13:21 * kc5tja intends on implementing a Forth environment for the chips anyway.
18:13:28 <kc5tja> onetom: No I don't.
18:13:31 <futhin> 1tom: what if evry1 typed like u? :P
18:14:26 <futhin> on this channel that is
18:14:30 <Jagos> kc5tja are you programming a forth environment for the 65XXX family?!!
18:14:56 <kc5tja> onetom: Besides, the abrvs used in CW/PSK31/RTTY r more consistent.
18:15:11 <onetom> Jagos: there must b existing 4th-es 4 that processor, iguess
18:15:13 <kc5tja> Jagos: Not at this time; I'm working with x86 first to replace DOS, then ultimately to replace Linux.
18:15:18 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
18:15:26 <futhin> jagos:  it's not too hard to code your own forth implementation..  a small forth implementation can be 1 kilobytes or so..
18:15:34 <kc5tja> There are plenty of Forths for that processor.  Most that are based on the FIG-Forth implementation are very slow however.
18:15:36 <onetom> futhin: probably that would frighten newbies away fast :)
18:15:47 <kc5tja> Check on comp.lang.forth for 6502 dialects of Forth.
18:16:08 <kc5tja> However, my 65xxx Forth will be expressly for the 65816; backward compatibility with the 6502 will not be used.
18:16:34 <Jagos> yeah
18:16:49 <onetom> kc5tja: u have the same goal as futhin & i have
18:16:57 <kc5tja> As such, it'll have a full 64KB code segment, with the remainder of the addressing space usable for data.
18:17:21 <onetom> kc5tja: why dont u share ur src&research results w us?
18:17:40 <kc5tja> onetom: Because it doesn't exist yet.
18:17:47 <onetom> :D ok
18:18:16 <futhin> onetom: heh, we don't have any src & research results yet either :P
18:18:19 <onetom> but u were telling us about strange techniques u r trying 2 implement
18:18:29 <kc5tja> ....
18:18:30 <kc5tja> like?
18:18:46 <onetom> u were telling tales about orthogonal persistency (or what)
18:18:49 * futhin suspects kc5tja has lots more knowledge about oses & os design :P
18:18:57 <onetom> dont u remember?
18:19:04 <futhin> onetom: i was telling you that too :P
18:19:08 <kc5tja> Sure, but I don't see how that fits in here.
18:19:19 <futhin> it's not a "strange technique" tho :P
18:19:37 <onetom> u r that guy i met w on the day b4 the day of CM's interview, aint ya?
18:19:41 <kc5tja> I was explaining that Forth was already an inherently Persistent syste.
18:19:52 <kc5tja> system even
18:20:12 <kc5tja> Its use of BLOCKs is 100% analogous to how existing OSes manage virtual memory using CPU paging.
18:20:34 <onetom> it fits, coz i thought u have a lot of src have written
18:20:44 <kc5tja> However, Forth does have a subtle advantage (and disadvantage) in that its block space is separate from the CPU address space.
18:20:49 <onetom> fs/forth is w u r developing, right?
18:20:54 <kc5tja> Yes
18:21:10 <onetom> and does it have any source yet?
18:21:26 <kc5tja> Just a 16-bit 8086 assembler for use in the target compiler.
18:21:54 <onetom> hm.. okay.
18:22:13 <kc5tja> The project for developing this version of FS/Forth is actually only about a month old.
18:22:23 <kc5tja> Half of that was spent going down a dark alley that ended up being a dead-end.
18:22:29 <kc5tja> Now I'm going a different path with it.
18:23:56 <Jagos> I'm going to learn forth, it's seems to be very attractive
18:24:26 <Jagos> can be coded in forth a mod player or so?
18:24:52 <Jagos> i think is a good project to learn the language
18:25:13 <futhin> http://testra.com/Forth/VHDL.htm
18:25:33 <futhin> jagos: pardon?
18:25:37 <futhin> code a mod player in forth?
18:25:40 <futhin> what's a mod player
18:26:02 <Jagos> a mod player is program which reproduces mod/s3m/stm/xm/it sound module files
18:26:14 <onetom> kc5tja: the CM interview dates back 2 about 4 month ago, isnt it?
18:26:28 <Jagos> it can be possible to code a modplayer in forth?
18:26:38 <onetom> kc5tja: and u were already talkin about fs4th those days
18:26:51 <onetom> Jagos: joking?
18:26:52 <Jagos> is there any free forth interpreter/compiler for linux?
18:26:52 <futhin> jagos:  yes
18:26:57 <futhin> er
18:27:02 <onetom> Jagos: everything is possible in 4th
18:27:13 <Jagos> yeah!
18:27:19 <futhin> jagos:  yes you can code a modplayer in forth..  and yes there are several free forth implementations for linux
18:27:33 <onetom> Jagos: coz its actually a nice and very smart wrapper around the machine lang
18:27:38 <futhin> jagos:  bigforth gforth TILE IsForth
18:27:42 <kc5tja> onetom: FS/Forth has existed as a pet project of mine for quite some time, dating back as far as Dolphin.
18:27:56 <Jagos> futhin what is the best implementation?
18:27:59 <onetom> ah, thats it dolphin
18:27:59 <kc5tja> onetom: But the current version of FS/Forth is what I'm working on now.
18:28:10 <kc5tja> onetom: No, do not be confused!!  Dolphin != FS/Forth
18:28:23 <onetom> 4 some reasons i cant recall, uve refused 2 publicate dolphin
18:28:40 * kc5tja refused to publish Dolphin for a variety of reasons.
18:28:51 <kc5tja> It will be published when I'm good and ready.
18:28:58 <kc5tja> Ditto for FS/Forth.
18:29:27 <kc5tja> They're my projects, and I do not want anyone interfering with the purity of the code or its architecture.
18:30:06 <onetom> kc5tja: u dont really get caught by the wind of the bazaar style development..
18:30:21 <kc5tja> In the case of Dolphin, many people who worked "with me" on the project ended up (attempting to) commandeer the project away from me and try to change it into a Unix clone.
18:30:29 <kc5tja> Bullshit.
18:30:38 <kc5tja> I fully support the Bazaar style of code development.
18:30:41 <futhin> jagos: they are all different..   IsForth is probably the  "best" in terms of speed and "purity"..  it is coded in assembly, and doesn't interface with the linux libraries
18:30:51 <onetom> right, that idea is bullshit
18:30:58 <kc5tja> What I do NOT support, however, is when people try to take my projects out from under me, and use my project's name on it.
18:31:28 <kc5tja> There were three people who tried to add Unix-style memory management, Unix-style filesystem, Unix-style process management features to Dolphin.
18:31:32 <kc5tja> I said no.
18:31:40 <kc5tja> They decided to do it anyway.
18:31:41 <futhin> jagos:  isforth has syscalls, and the author is doing alot of development on it right now..  it is growing quite nicely..  sockets support, dynamic memory management, windowing text ui envrionment..  eventually there will be a web browser coded in it  (one of the author's goals)
18:31:45 <onetom> kc5tja: if ya support, let the words of ESR echo in ur ears: release early & often ;)
18:31:46 <kc5tja> And I closed off development.
18:32:02 <kc5tja> onetom: When did you become a pastor?
18:32:09 <kc5tja> And for the record, I'm not religious.
18:32:18 <Jagos> cool :)
18:32:32 <onetom> kc5tja: hee hee hee ;p
18:32:39 <kc5tja> You think it's funny.  I don't.
18:32:40 <onetom> neither me
18:32:55 <futhin> jagos:  i hear TILE is very interesting..   bigforth has gfx libraries..   gforth & bigforth both can interface with linux libraries
18:33:53 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@216.25.202.63) joined #forth
18:33:54 <futhin> jagos:  apparently TILE is implemented quite nicely and serves as a good example..   ask onetom about TILE :)
18:34:00 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:34:00 <onetom> kc5tja: :/ did i say sg wrong?
18:34:49 <futhin> kc5tja:  when onetom first came onto this channel, i got quite annoyed with him, and i threatened to kickban him unless he started typing "normally"..  
18:35:03 <onetom> Jagos: i hold a patched4linux version of TILE available on my home machine
18:35:06 <Jagos> futhin in my teorical forth modplayer the only thing necessary is to open "/dev/dsp" for writting, that can be done on the all implementations, isn't it?
18:35:09 <futhin> onetom was quite annoying cause i didn't understand him at first nor did i read what he typed easily..
18:35:32 <futhin> jagos:  yeah.. probably :) 
18:35:44 <futhin> jagos: i'm not exactly sure how to do that, but it should be pretty easy to do so
18:36:04 <onetom> Jagos: but its unavailable @ the moment. dunno why. (our isp's adsl is not famous about reliability)
18:36:24 <futhin> jagos: i'll ask i440r the next time i see him..  i440r is the developer of IsForth and he is quite active on this channel
18:36:29 <kc5tja> onetom: sg?
18:36:33 <futhin> sg = something
18:37:19 <onetom> futhin: :) thankyou. u r me voice ;)
18:37:35 <futhin> jagos:  oh, onetom is refering to downloading TILE off his comp i think ??
18:37:52 <futhin> onetom: heh well i'm here, and i'm a fast typer :P
18:38:21 <futhin> onetom:  hermantom.homeip.net is up right?
18:38:55 <onetom> it wasnt an hour ago..
18:39:00 <futhin> ah
18:39:19 <futhin> onetom:  tell jagos about TILE, what did you like about TILE?  the 9 instruction VM or something ??
18:39:49 <kc5tja> No, but I don't like the whole religious hippy-freak type of writing.  It's not only uncalled for, it's flat out unnecessary.
18:40:39 <futhin> kc5tja:  umm... you are just putting a label or name calling the writing style..
18:41:06 <futhin> afaik, onetom isn't a religious hippy-freak.. 
18:41:07 <onetom> hmmm, not even the ISPs -so called- dashboard is accesible (213.163.53.250)
18:41:11 <onetom> vnet sux
18:41:15 <futhin> onetom: are you a religious hippy-freak? ;P
18:41:55 <onetom> futhin: :) that 9instr 4th is just an attached example 4 it
18:42:14 <kc5tja> "Let the words of ESR flow through you" isn't a religious-like style of writing?
18:42:15 <onetom> futhin: no, im absolutely not
18:42:17 <futhin> onetom:  what did you like about TILE?  i forget what you said to me about TILE..  all i remember is that something was nice about it
18:42:18 <kc5tja> What is it then?
18:42:36 <onetom> kc5tja: it is, but iwas just joking
18:42:52 <kc5tja> I'll release when I release, and that's the end of the discussion.
18:43:01 <kc5tja> My projects are designed to benefit one person only: me.
18:43:09 <kc5tja> If they help others, fine.  I'm happy for them.
18:43:16 <onetom> kc5tja: that whole cathedral-bazaar writing is a bit loaded w this style
18:43:27 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: are you referring to your Dolphin project?
18:43:28 <kc5tja> Yes, and that's why I didn't read it.
18:43:33 <kc5tja> I was thoroughly insulted by it.
18:43:44 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Dolphin and FS/Forth and anything else related.
18:43:56 <TheBlueWizard> got it :)
18:43:56 <onetom> kc5tja: but its not bad at all! hey!
18:44:33 <onetom> kc5tja: dont b so dogmatically atheist.
18:44:37 <kc5tja> Basically, this is my attitude: if you have something to say to me, just say it.  Present the facts, present a rational line of thought, and be done with it.
18:44:55 <kc5tja> Let ME choose for myself what I want to do.
18:45:13 <onetom> kc5tja: its more rational than religious, so go ahead and read it
18:45:16 <kc5tja> I'm sorry to upset you, but I am very dogmatically atheist.
18:45:20 <onetom> its a must-have
18:45:32 <kc5tja> You just said it was full of that style of writing though.
18:45:41 <onetom> just ignore the parts u dont like
18:45:47 <onetom> noooo
18:46:04 <onetom> i said: a BIT loaded w...
18:46:33 <onetom> imeant, LIL BIT actually
18:47:01 <onetom> but thats also a joke in it, ithink
18:47:18 <onetom> the author of perl started this joke, infact
18:47:36 * TheBlueWizard isn't sure what kc5tja meant by being an "atheist"
18:47:41 <futhin> kc5tja:  you were thoroughly insulted by cathedral-bazaar or something else ?
18:48:34 --- part: kc5tja left #forth
18:48:47 <onetom> and yes, ESR does is refered to as a prophet many times
18:48:51 <futhin> i assume he's busy
18:48:52 <onetom> anyway :)
18:48:58 <futhin> instead of really angry at us
18:48:59 <futhin> heh
18:49:00 <onetom> or upset ;)
18:49:08 <onetom> tired of religious things
18:49:12 <futhin> GRR!
18:49:15 <futhin> now i'm upset!
18:49:19 <onetom> i can understand him
18:49:20 * futhin goes on a rampage!
18:49:35 <onetom> ? jokin?
18:49:54 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@user-24-214-86-42.knology.net) joined #forth
18:50:00 <onetom> i also was anti-religious earlier
18:50:15 <onetom> but now im religion-neutral
18:50:42 <onetom> i look 2 religion as 2 drug or alcohol
18:50:54 <onetom> who needs it, just take it
18:51:47 <onetom> if s/he still remains usable/valuable i wont refuse 2 contact w her/him
18:52:55 <onetom> look 2 :D look AT -- i would b time 2 master english better..
18:53:17 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...I seem to land in a weird fusion of pseudo-religious diatribe over ESR and his writing, and whatever
18:53:33 <onetom> :)
18:53:36 <onetom> cya
18:53:37 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
18:53:39 <kc5tja> I'm sorry I ever brought up the subject.
18:53:42 <kc5tja> End it.
18:53:51 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
18:53:56 <onetom> kc5tja: k. </religion>
18:56:20 <kc5tja> Good.  I finally got these damned hardware tests to pass.
18:56:24 * kc5tja knew it wasn't th ehardware.
18:56:29 <Jagos> well guys, i'm going to sleep
18:56:36 <Jagos> tomorrow i will begin to learn forth
18:56:38 * kc5tja is so sick of working with horrifically unmaintained software.
18:56:41 <futhin> jagos:  okay, talk to you later :)
18:56:55 <Jagos> see ya crew :)
18:56:55 --- quit: Jagos ("ME CORRO PROGRAMANDO INFINITAMENTE XD")
18:59:02 <kc5tja> I so very much wish this whole thing were rewritten from the ground up.
18:59:18 <kc5tja> Whether it is in C, in Python, in Forth; it doesn't matter to me.
18:59:30 <kc5tja> Even Perl would be acceptable as long as the system was nice and cleanly designed.
18:59:37 <futhin> :)
18:59:47 * kc5tja considers opening a website that contains commentaries about stuff like this.
18:59:53 <futhin> how long would it take for rewriting it in C?
18:59:58 <kc5tja> It won't do any good, but it'll help me get this cruft off my chest.
19:00:19 <kc5tja> futhin: To replicate everything we have now, years.
19:00:26 <futhin> well if your website was about how to do chip manufacturing and testing properly, then that would be interesting
19:00:37 <futhin> i would love to read that kind of stuff
19:00:42 <kc5tja> It'll probably contain topics all over the place.
19:00:55 <kc5tja> Well, I can't divulge any information about what I do here.
19:00:57 <futhin> ah, maybe you could make a blog ;)
19:00:58 <kc5tja> It'll get me fired if I do.
19:01:12 * kc5tja prefers Wikis, actually.
19:01:31 <futhin> yeah.. did you get to sign a NDA ? :)
19:01:34 <kc5tja> Weblogs are useful only if you update them frequently, and have an active readership.
19:01:38 <kc5tja> Yes.
19:03:21 <kc5tja> But who knows?  Maybe a weblog is the ideal system to use.  I don't know.
19:03:24 <kc5tja> I don't care anymore.
19:03:25 * kc5tja sighs
19:03:37 <kc5tja> I just want shit to work.
19:03:42 <kc5tja> Is that really too much to ask?
19:04:02 <onetom> everybody shuts up, c
19:04:19 <onetom> we leave u work ;)
19:05:46 <kc5tja> That's their perrogative(sp?).
19:06:03 <kc5tja> prerogative
19:06:18 <futhin> i get frustrated too at times..  with software inadequacies, with the whole crappy system with all the layers..  with all the complexity..  the complexity causes paralysis with productivity, it is sad
19:07:20 <kc5tja> When I was hired, my job duties were to automate the semiconductor verification testing.
19:07:45 <kc5tja> Every time, I said, "You know, the only way to fix this problem is to rewrite this code.  It'll be more cost effective if we just scrap it and start from scratch."
19:07:48 <onetom> and know?
19:07:48 <kc5tja> Did they listen to me?
19:07:50 <kc5tja> No.
19:07:56 <onetom> u have 2 sweep the yard? ;)
19:08:10 <kc5tja> No, we have Mexian immigrants that do that for us.
19:08:14 <kc5tja> Mexican
19:08:18 <onetom> lolll
19:08:23 <kc5tja> Don't laugh -- it's true.
19:08:48 <kc5tja> All the poor Mexicans jump the border illegally to make a quick buck to help support their families back in Mexico.
19:09:01 <kc5tja> It's a sad state of affairs, and I cannot say I blame them.
19:09:20 <kc5tja> Between a corrupt government in Mexico and worker exploitation in this country, I know I wouldn't want to be one of them.  :(
19:09:25 <onetom> if u were a hungarian u would say gypsy or romanian or polish instead of mexican
19:09:37 <onetom> so i can understand the situation i think
19:09:42 <kc5tja> Gypsy -- now that's a word I haven't heard in a long time.
19:10:38 <onetom> there r lots of them in hungary and around
19:11:10 <kc5tja> Damn, still getting failures!!  :/
19:11:34 <onetom> so i meet the word very often and meet w its meaning often too ;)
19:12:54 <onetom> vast of them r smelly, dirty, undereducated, alcoholist and steal the shit out of ur ass too :)
19:16:06 <kc5tja> Same here
19:16:14 <kc5tja> But you'd be that way too if you lived in their shoes.
19:16:56 <onetom> :) thats true
19:17:46 <onetom> except that i wont b undereducted :)
19:18:11 <onetom> like some of the homelesses
19:18:51 <kc5tja> These all fail on command #58....  *sigh*  How the heck do I debug this?!
19:19:13 <onetom> w prints insterted :)
19:19:25 <kc5tja> No.
19:19:37 <onetom> idont care what the problem is, the answer is print :)
19:19:42 <kc5tja> That won't help me if the chip is reporting problems with executing commands above #58.
19:19:52 <onetom> r u testing hw or simulated hw?
19:20:09 <kc5tja> Testing HW
19:20:14 <onetom> chip? reports?
19:20:22 <onetom> how does it report?
19:20:32 <kc5tja> I can't tell you that.
19:20:40 <onetom> k
19:20:52 <kc5tja> Besides, I wouldn't know even if I could.
19:20:57 <onetom> ah, command! not instruction
19:21:12 <kc5tja> Again, it's hidden underneath all this damned known-broken testing infrastructure.
19:21:24 <onetom> great...
19:21:29 <onetom> BUT
19:21:29 <kc5tja> Command, instruction, what's the difference?
19:22:24 <kc5tja> Like right now, the chip is hung.  Doing nothing.  *sigh*
19:22:25 <onetom> the command term is rather used 4 limited cases
19:22:30 <futhin> ones hardware, ones software ;P
19:23:01 <futhin> but they _are_ interchageable, so i know what you mean
19:23:01 <onetom> instruction is a brick of fully programmable CPUs
19:23:01 <kc5tja> A command tells the chip what to do.
19:23:08 <onetom> yeah, yeah
19:23:17 <onetom> ithink we all understand each other
19:23:20 <kc5tja> It contains a command packet, source packets, and a result descriptor packet.
19:23:32 <kc5tja> The chip then uses the result descriptor to place the results of the operation into host memory.
19:23:38 <onetom> its just not easy 2 express ourselves
19:23:53 <kc5tja> It's all done via DMA.
19:23:57 <onetom> aha, c
19:24:20 <onetom> now i got a faint idea about the environment
19:24:30 <kc5tja> Not enough to replicate our circuits.
19:24:33 <onetom> BUT
19:24:39 <onetom> sure :D
19:24:47 <kc5tja> What I just described is equally descriptive of our competitor's products too.
19:24:57 <onetom> i were talkin about rejection previously
19:25:33 <onetom> in such cases, dont bother askin 4 permission 2 rewrite code
19:25:42 <onetom> just start 2 rewrite
19:26:04 <kc5tja> I can't do that.
19:26:04 <onetom> and if u can show some results 
19:26:09 <kc5tja> No.
19:26:10 <kc5tja> No.
19:26:11 <kc5tja> No.
19:26:13 <onetom> k
19:26:14 <onetom> k
19:26:14 <onetom> k
19:26:18 <kc5tja> That will get you FIRED instantly.
19:26:27 <onetom> ?
19:26:29 <onetom> how come?
19:26:39 <kc5tja> I work in verification.
19:26:52 <onetom> but still do some programming
19:26:59 <kc5tja> How can I reliably certify that these chips work if the code I just re-wrote hasn't been itself certified to be correct?
19:27:05 <onetom> so u have the sources of the verification sys dont u?
19:27:21 <kc5tja> Having the source isn't the same as having certification!
19:27:26 <onetom> sure
19:27:30 <kc5tja> I believe we already went through all this.
19:28:00 <kc5tja> I can't just start writing code where-ever I feel like it.
19:28:08 <kc5tja> I have to get management approval, first and foremost.
19:28:16 <onetom> but they can fuck certification if the sw fails ,dont they?
19:28:33 <kc5tja> I then have to notify my peers about any suggested modifications/replacements.
19:28:51 <kc5tja> They then decide that "we don't have time for this, let's just fix what we have now."
19:29:04 <kc5tja> OR, they decide, "That sounds good, let's make it happen."
19:29:05 <onetom> hmmm, probably u dont understand me clearly..
19:29:10 <kc5tja> Then I code, THEN I deploy
19:29:19 <kc5tja> THEN I have to train my peers in using the new software.
19:29:20 <onetom> write it in part of your spare time
19:29:31 <kc5tja> **WHAT** spare time?
19:29:34 <kc5tja> I don't HAVE spare time.
19:29:46 <onetom> then make some
19:30:02 * kc5tja finds this laughable.
19:30:25 * kc5tja will call up my manager right now and say, "You know what? I don't think I have enough spare time.  I think I'll take some hours out of my work schedule to do what I want to do."
19:30:28 <onetom> via not fuckin all the time w that buggy shit
19:30:58 <kc5tja> But if I don't use what we have now, I fall behind in my chip verification schedule.
19:31:04 <kc5tja> I'm on a deadline here.
19:31:12 <kc5tja> These chips ship by a certain set date.
19:31:17 <kc5tja> Or we loose huge sums of cash.
19:31:22 <onetom> hey, i was refering the time out of worktime as spare time
19:31:31 <kc5tja> CISCO is our customer, not my father.
19:31:50 <kc5tja> Fuck you if you think my personal time is going to be spent doing work-related stuff.
19:31:51 <onetom> khm...
19:31:53 <kc5tja> :(
19:31:56 <onetom> that hurts..
19:31:57 <kc5tja> I'm deeply insulted by that.
19:32:08 <kc5tja> I'm very angry.
19:32:19 <kc5tja> I'm hurt by everything you've said tonight.
19:32:32 <onetom> its such a day :)
19:32:47 <onetom> btw, where r ya from?
19:33:12 <kc5tja> Here I am, at 19:23, a good 2 hours after I'm supposed to have left, still working on these God-damned tests.  And I can't do a *F(*#@&Y$(*&#$@ thing about it.
19:33:43 * kc5tja is about ready to ram someone's head through a fucking wall right now.  I'm that pissed.
19:34:51 <kc5tja> I don't know what they're going to do when I start college.
19:35:54 <kc5tja> The way things are going here, I'll be here until 23:00 or later trying to get this to work.
19:35:56 * kc5tja cries.
19:36:49 <kc5tja> Holy moley...
19:36:58 <kc5tja> The first test passed after 39 minutes...
19:37:02 * kc5tja sighs
19:37:22 <kc5tja> That at least is a good sign.
19:41:47 <kc5tja> Hey man, I'm sorry.  I'm just under a lot of pressure to get this stuff working on time, and it's like it never does for me.  
19:42:13 <kc5tja> And I just don't want to lose my job because of it, because I still need to go back to school, and make payments on bills and things.
19:44:18 <onetom> okay, okay, np
19:44:56 <onetom> im also working, so i lag
19:52:21 <onetom> its 4:52am here
19:52:57 <onetom> and im "playing" video digitalization and postprocessing (mainly the sound)
19:52:59 <kc5tja> 7:43PM here
19:53:58 <onetom> so u have 9 more hours 2 work as long as i ;)
19:54:30 <onetom> ok, i went 2 bed @6 last morning but got up @ 10
19:55:08 <onetom> anyway, i wanted 2 tell u my situation
19:55:44 <onetom> im applied @a botanical institute as a general person 4 computer related stuff
19:55:56 <kc5tja> Cool.
19:56:23 <onetom> coz im forced 2 ...... civil service
19:56:46 <onetom> 11months civil service insted of 6 month military service
19:57:07 <onetom> its a "musthave" in hungary
19:57:27 <kc5tja> It is in nearly all countries; it's not in the USA though.
19:57:36 <onetom> so im living in a very small library for 3 months
19:57:40 <onetom> roughly
19:58:12 <onetom> i have a blanket and a polifoam 2 sleep on
19:58:54 <onetom> between 1 of the 2 book-shelves of the library room and the wall of the room
19:59:15 <onetom> its a polifoam-wide "hole"
19:59:39 <onetom> i also have access 2 a not 2 clean shower
20:00:28 <onetom> and a fridge what is utilized by all persons @the institute :)
20:00:57 <onetom> the shower is about 2m^2 and opens directly 2 the corridor
20:01:19 <onetom> where all the students and teacher walk
20:01:52 <kc5tja> So shoudl I start calling you Harry Potter then?  :)
20:02:23 <onetom> havent seen the film and havent read the book but probably yes :)
20:02:47 <kc5tja> I won't explain it.  You'll be living in a library, so you'll get a chance to read the book.  Then you'll understand.  :)
20:02:57 <onetom> i could live @ home 2 but its 20mins far by bike
20:03:23 <onetom> and the net connection is just 40/6kbyte/s
20:03:45 <onetom> compared 2 the 700kBps univ. net :)
20:04:06 <onetom> ah, c :)
20:05:05 <futhin> so everyone in the corridor can see you while you are showering? 
20:05:09 <onetom> the conclusion: i dont fall 2 far from those mexicans actually ;)
20:05:47 <onetom> futhin: :) nooo. there is a door on the shower
20:06:13 <onetom> futhin: tho, if u close it u wont see anything :)
20:06:54 <onetom> futhin: coz there is no window on it. just 2 lil vent-hole r on the wall
20:07:40 <onetom> @3m high and they open 2 the womens toilet
20:08:35 <onetom> just those holes could let some light in or the open door and the corridor lights
20:09:51 <onetom> i can even choose! but any choice wont make that "room" really light. its dim 4 years ithink :)
20:10:12 <futhin> you are living at the university instead of biking 20 minutes to home? :P
20:10:19 <onetom> yup
20:10:35 <onetom> coz im also alone here @ the evenings
20:11:00 <onetom> actually the problem is not with the biking home part
20:11:21 <onetom> but w the biking back on time part :)
20:11:52 <onetom> this way im always available on time
20:12:08 <onetom> wheather i sleep or not
20:13:49 <onetom> icould show u pix later
20:14:14 <onetom> coz i also have 2 do some photographin 2
20:14:18 <futhin> :)
20:14:23 <onetom> after finishing other projects
20:34:09 <onetom> floor time :)
20:35:33 <kc5tja> Hehe :)  Talk to you later.
20:36:49 <onetom> thx. & good lucky -- as the miners say
21:11:13 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
21:35:33 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth
21:44:08 <kc5tja> futhin: You there?
22:24:46 <futhin> kc5tja
22:24:49 <futhin> hello kc5tja
22:24:51 <futhin> didn't notice
22:24:55 <futhin> what's up?
22:25:13 <futhin> you wanna talk about shboom forthchip desktop computer? :P
22:34:12 <futhin> i'm interested in the forthchip desktop computer
22:34:26 <futhin> it would be interesting to know if shboom chips would be a feasible way to start off
22:34:30 <futhin> as a prototype perhaps
22:35:07 <futhin> and then later on, when these computers are selling, bring out desktop computers with the 25X chips
22:47:37 <futhin> hrmmm
22:47:53 <futhin> i go to bed real soon
22:53:26 <futhin> k, good night
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.13