00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.12 00:44:43 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 01:09:32 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:51:21 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 04:09:26 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:56:11 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:56:56 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 05:21:08 hi 05:24:30 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-3pool111-237.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:46:15 Hi cleverdra, onetom :) 05:47:25 hello Robert 05:51:06 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 05:54:29 Robert: whats up w ya? 05:54:48 * Robert came back from Germany yesterday. 05:54:55 theres no school 4 ya nowdays yet 05:55:12 oh, u w in the neighbourhood then :) 05:55:20 u were 05:55:31 was it a holiday trip? 05:57:32 Yeah. 05:57:41 2 weeks until school starts here :) 06:47:04 onetom: for coding a forth virtual machine across each platform, should we use MachineForth ? 06:55:24 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:55:34 hi 07:06:03 hello Serg 07:06:11 hi 07:06:20 how are u now ? 07:06:26 what do u work on ? 07:06:58 Oh, fine. I'm trying to get CMUCL, Dylan, and several schemes working. 07:07:15 now dropped parser ( lost nterest to stemakng ) and half-way wrote a bomb-tossing game, like Scorch or Worms 07:07:37 Dylan is currently on its second day of compilation (really). CMUCL needs alien so I can deal with the .debs (CMUCL needs a Common Lisp to compile itself, so I'm going to try and use CMUCL for that). 07:07:47 lost interest in what? 07:07:55 ooh, Scorch. Fun. 07:08:03 afk 07:09:12 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:14:08 i'm back 07:14:27 goddamn my kbd !!!!! it jams all ze way !!!! 07:23:29 Why does your keyboard jam? 07:24:17 its damn old !!! 07:24:41 i work at computer trash company, we trade s/hand wrek 07:24:46 Take the keys off and clean it with rubbing alcohol and Q-tips? 07:24:58 You trade what? 07:25:08 second hand hardware 07:25:19 (secondhand, but I don't know what wrek is) 07:25:25 oh. 07:25:38 from usa mainly 07:25:45 wreCk 07:25:47 Oh! When businesses throw away their hardware, they give it to you? 07:26:06 right 07:26:11 * cleverdra nods. 07:27:23 but now we are going under MiG's tail ourselves, and i'm seeking job 07:27:52 What does that mean, to go under MiG's tail? 07:28:53 to "go under dog's tail" is RU idiom to be wasted ;), and i upgraded it :) 07:29:10 Ah. But what is MiG? 07:29:36 Russian jet fighters, from Korea war till now 07:29:54 ah. The capitalization confused me. 07:30:14 it's damn hot under its tail then it takes off at full afterburners :) 07:32:18 so i stopped work on parser, too many errors frustrated me 07:33:21 the last was non-returning from INCLUDE 07:33:31 What kinds of errors? 07:33:52 but if someone really needs it more than me, i'll go on 07:34:13 if one will press on me and help w/ resolving stupid errors 07:34:34 nevermind, i cleared them 07:34:47 but it dunno return from INCLUDE 07:34:56 and i cant cope w/ it 07:35:41 * cleverdra nods. 07:36:59 i xtremely lack well documented forth system 07:37:20 What OS do you want it on? 07:37:22 NOT for windoze - i dunno want to support it damn monopoly 07:37:40 any kind of unix, GPL or freeware 07:37:59 - linux, bsd, xenix (dropped to f\w now).... 07:38:23 isForth is alfa now.... 07:38:34 gforth isforth kforth pforth eforth 4th lib4th ficl 07:38:57 once more to log please 07:39:06 afk 07:39:30 isforth is a pretty good Forth, though, and has some documentation (in the ASM sources there are comments for each word; the Forth sources are somewhat better) 07:40:32 I like IsForth too, but I haven't tried anything other than IsForth and Gforth for Linux :) 07:41:27 also, if you need help with IsForth you have us =) 07:42:32 Exactly, I440r is always here to say "Implement that function!!!", when you ask for something :) 07:42:59 Does he say that? Wow. 07:46:30 pse repeat lst of forth - i really can't copy and paste 07:46:40 list of forths 07:47:45 i misplugged my hda to hdb, and i need to clear it be4 nstalling linux 07:48:02 but i'm too lazy to open my rig.... 07:48:09 gforth isforth kforth pforth eforth 4th lib4th ficl 07:48:17 :) 07:48:33 gforth is pretty good and has good documentation (but it ignores some words; you should get the dpANS to go with it) 07:48:45 oh, and pfe 07:48:50 will dnload tomorrow 07:49:53 pfe and gforth and kforth and pforth and ficl are all written in C; PFE and gforth are the most popular/developed of these; I don't really know what kforth's about, but it looks neat; ficl is designed to work with C, and consequently does not work too well as an interactive Forth (all the words are in C! Therefore no SEE =) 07:50:28 what of them (for linux) are capable for gfx and (less valueble) sound ? 07:50:54 4th is a compiler, and is very wierd. lib4th is for working from C, but looks OK. eforth is written in ASM (nasm port yet? I think so...) and is tiny -- the linux port, though, is broken. 07:50:58 oh, and bigforth. 07:51:10 Serg - bigforth comes with its own graphics library. 07:51:16 ok 07:51:40 gforth and PFE and ficl and lib4th can all interface (with varying effort) with C graphics libraries. 07:51:43 one of my big interests - games , so gfx s esential 07:51:49 * cleverdra nods. 07:52:16 isforth is also written in ASM, like eforth, but is definitely written in nasm and is much better -- for instance, isforth's KEY works as expected. 07:52:39 good 07:52:42 (somebody ported eforth in such a way that KEY is line-buffered) 07:53:01 ha-ha-ha ! 07:53:18 but w/ src we can fx it :) 07:53:25 fIx !!!!! 07:53:52 oh, and h3sm: a Forth with a pointer stack (like typical data stack), a return stack, and a pyte stack (a stack of runtime-variable-size objects, sized from 8- to 256-bytes) 07:54:53 I haven't used h3sm in a while, but it was OK when I used it: the pyte stack was somewhat limited; it had all the linux syscalls. 07:55:07 but i dislike multimedia - i think games should stress more on being interesting for mind than eye-candy 07:55:33 * cleverdra nods. 07:55:49 nods meens agree or disagree ? 07:55:54 Well, you have to combine those :) 07:55:58 There's been a trend towards eye-candy, but I think that it's balancing out to good games with good graphics. 07:56:10 Serg_penguin: Nod = shake your head up and down. 07:56:18 Serg_penguin: == agree, in most cultures ;) 07:56:18 Serg - um, nods means either in different cultures, sorry =) I mean that I agree. 07:56:26 ok 07:56:38 Well, good graphics isn't always needed. 07:56:51 Sometimes that improves the game, sometimes it doesn't. 07:56:53 * cleverdra notes that System Shock 2, a very good game, also has very good graphics. 07:57:01 so is my parser valueble for anyone ? 07:57:01 (which lend themselves to the game) 07:57:20 Serg - I forget what it's for. 07:58:06 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 07:58:18 it TYPE's anything in } { and INTERPRET's text in { } 07:58:36 "CAUTION BLADE EXTREMELY SHARP! KEEP OUT OF CHILDREN." 07:59:06 mainly for INCLUDE , #DEFINE and other macro processing 07:59:16 ah, OK. 07:59:52 Serg - it wouldn't be something that I'd use often, but I imagine that some would like it. 08:01:46 i'll just put idea on forth.org.r and ask is it worth working and will anyone help me 08:03:10 is where a good pece of 3D code in Forth ? 08:03:25 NOT C lib or nterface to Open GL 08:03:48 pIece mega damn !! 08:04:53 Heh... 08:05:02 Hi kc5tja :) 08:06:24 oh, i'll go home.... will re-plug my hdd and install linux, to give a try to Linux forths 08:06:53 OK. Bye. 08:07:01 Bye, Serg_penguin. 08:07:14 BYE 08:07:18 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 08:07:21 Hmm... are there many good BSD forths? 08:07:23 shit 08:07:30 I've only tried GForth on my NetBSD box. 08:07:33 ive just finished reading the log... :/ 08:07:54 Robert - I think that all that I've mentioned except for isforth/eforth/h3sm will work on a BSD> 08:08:04 maybe eforth will. 08:08:09 we should also mention him bigforth and TILE 08:08:17 cleverdra: Are they C forths? 08:08:25 (The portable ones) 08:08:33 Robert - gforth is GNU C, but yes. 08:08:41 TILE is pretty complete and well documented and portable and it also has nice examples 08:08:59 those could serve as a tutorial 08:19:40 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 08:30:32 re robert 08:30:44 * kc5tja is still getting ready for work. 08:49:42 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-shower 08:56:30 I just email in a Forth version of 'foo', for this page: http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html 09:08:59 : big>a ( big a -- ) 09:09:00 over @ abs 1+ cells dup allot move ; 09:09:00 s" 1" make_big_number constant big1 09:09:00 : foo ( big -- ) 09:09:00 here >r big>here 09:09:00 :noname ( -- big' ) 09:09:01 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:09:02 r@ postpone literal big1 postpone literal postpone big+ 09:09:04 postpone dup r> postpone literal postpone big>a 09:09:06 postpone ; ; 09:09:10 * cleverdra shudders. 09:09:40 err, ack, stack comment of FOO should be ( big -- xt ) 09:09:53 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 09:09:57 (at least I corrected that before emailing) 09:25:58 --- nick: kc-shower -> kc5tja 09:26:43 I submitted two implementations of what he was asking for, and never once did he use any of them. 09:26:57 I'm firmly convinced that he doesn't care about Forth, nor does he want to care. 09:27:00 really? Did he reply at all? 09:27:11 Never. 09:27:43 bleh, then I'll send him a request to please make his antipathy to Forth explicit. He just wasted my time. 09:27:50 In fact, he'll probably post your version as an example of why "Lisp is better," because your code is so much longer than what mine was. :) 09:28:01 * kc5tja used CREATE/DOES> to implement his accumulator example. 09:28:14 kc5tja: Who are you talking about? 09:28:31 kc5tja - my initial post had that, and some others, but I decided to try and follow his pattern the best I could. 09:28:44 Robert: Who Cleverdra was talking about: Paul Graham. 09:28:57 Sorry, didn't see that. 09:29:13 See, he didn't ask the programmer to implement his code verbatim -- he just wanted equivalent functionality. 09:29:33 So I sent him two implementations. 09:29:41 Not a one did he even look at, much less post on his site. 09:30:26 I was a little bit disappointed in that, to say the least. 09:31:45 Another person just told me that he had previously sent you two 09:31:45 different Accumulator Generators in Forth, without getting a reply 09:31:45 (and obviously without getting them put on the page). His thesis 09:31:45 is that you neither care nor wish to care about Forth -- that's 09:31:45 fine, but please make your antipathy explicit. You just wasted my 09:31:46 time. 09:31:59 (It rhymes!) 09:32:22 kc5tja - yes, I'm a little disappointed too =( 09:33:33 I mean, he accepted Python, Perl, and a whole bunch of other examples. But not Forth. That's bullshit. 09:33:42 But I don't even want to get started on that. 09:34:48 (also, s/had previously/has/. blech) 09:35:00 kc5tja - if you were to get started on that, where would you go? 09:35:14 (if you can answer without getting started) 09:35:15 Insane asylum. 09:35:22 Oh. OK. 09:35:41 Things that piss me off do so in a rather violent/vocal way. 10:09:36 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:11:14 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 10:14:59 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 10:54:11 --- join: proteus (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 11:09:32 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:32:30 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@24.214.86.42) joined #forth 11:33:45 hi 11:34:15 hmm, looking for "Write a function foo that takes a number" and "Accumlator Generator" 11:34:58 fail on altavista.com 11:35:06 and succeds on google.com 11:35:25 how long did u wait after posting the 4th solutions? 11:35:36 That's because Altavista searches on keywords only, while Google does a full document index. 11:35:44 ah, c 11:35:46 It's going on 6 to 8 months now. 11:36:29 and cant it b possible that paul doesnt have time 2 deal w his website? 11:36:51 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:37:01 its possible that he hasnt touched it until say, 1999 11:37:16 just the top news, probably... 11:38:36 why is that accumlator generator, anyway? 11:38:45 what accumlates what? 11:40:12 Read the article. 11:40:25 It's just a dummy function to demonstrate the uber-powers of Lisp. 11:41:19 article? 11:41:39 Never mind. 11:41:40 the revenge of the nerds? 11:42:29 Yes 11:43:03 (probably ive already read it some month ago, when it has quoted on #forth) 11:43:30 but still cant see the accumlation ... 11:44:29 He's returning a function that accept a single parameter, which is added to the closure's local variable. 11:46:38 i understood it (ithink) but the word accumlation implicates some iteration somewhere, doesnt is 11:47:06 wait... 11:47:33 No. 11:47:37 the generated function is similar to a 11:47:45 Accumulation simply means that you aggregate or maintain a count of things over time. 11:47:48 C function w a static local variable? 11:48:03 ahhha... 11:48:45 right, skip it. i dont wanna bother u w such marginal questions :) 11:50:21 could u show ur versions, anyway? 11:50:46 if paul not, im still interested in those, anyway ;) 11:52:13 : FOO CREATE , DOES> +! ; 11:57:24 * kc5tja really doesn't like this cold. It just won't go away. >:( 11:58:06 its cold too here 11:58:24 * onetom just closed the window some mins ago 12:01:02 I live in Southern California; it never gets cold here. 12:01:13 But that doesn't mean I still can't catch colds. 12:05:20 im still thinkin about that accgen problem... 12:05:51 ur FOO version does accumlation, but its not a function what it returns 12:05:58 just a "procedure" 12:07:37 The idea of returning a function in Forth is nonsensical. 12:07:56 That's one of the closest things you can get to solving the problem. 12:08:08 but the defining word is a good synonym for that 12:08:28 Cleverdra produced a much longer example (VERY long iin fact) that more closely approximates the function specified as well as its execution semantics. 12:08:31 but the problem is that the defined doesnt return a value 12:08:35 so its no a function 12:09:06 : FOO CREATE , DOES> @ + ; 12:09:16 But that doesn't accumulate! 12:09:29 You'll note that HIS accumulator ALSO does not return a value. 12:09:32 neither the others, ithink... 12:09:46 Yes, they all accumulate. 12:09:47 pad 12:09:47 Accumulator Generator 12:09:47 Revenge of the Nerds yielded a collection of canonical solutions to the same problem in a number of languages. 12:09:47 The problem: Write a function foo that takes a number n and returns a function that takes a number i, and returns n incremented by i. 12:09:56 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:10:32 * kc5tja shrugs. 12:10:46 "returns n incremented by i" but it doesnt say, u have to increment n and remember that incrementation 12:10:53 Whatever, all I know is I sent in the answer, and verified it against his own examples. And he still didn't respond. 12:11:15 anyway the solution is the followin in that case: 12:11:54 : FOO CREATE , DOES> swap over +! @ ; 12:11:54 Frankly, I don't much care. Paul can go do LISP all he wants. 12:12:05 I'll do Forth. 12:12:14 sure sure, thats ok 12:13:16 do if u do forth u could help me, the interested 1, to solve & understand such problems 12:13:44 No, I can't, because I can't recall what I did some 8 months ago. 12:14:03 hey, but its a very simple problem 12:14:12 I don't care. 12:14:15 k 12:14:17 . 12:14:20 It doesn't interest me. 12:14:31 what do u care about now, then? 12:14:34 It looks like you pretty much solved it on your own anyway. 12:14:54 Different things. 12:15:59 Pretty soon, I'll be caring about getting good grades in college. 12:16:27 And I hope this time, I'll be able to succeed and at least get an associates degree. 12:16:40 c 12:16:51 This is my third time trying to go back to school. 12:17:05 The previous two attempts I had to drop out because neither I nor my parents could afford it. 12:17:11 ayy.. good luck then 12:17:14 And that was with all the financial aid I could muster. 12:18:03 that very sad... in hungary its almost free 2 get the 1st diploma 12:18:30 in a university or college 12:18:50 eeer, collage :) 12:19:13 College is how we spell it. 12:22:34 brb -- going to get food. 12:22:36 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-fodo 12:22:39 k 12:22:40 --- nick: kc-fodo -> kc-food 12:22:50 frodo :) 12:27:09 how can i define a word what defines a colon def? 12:27:31 that is a word similar to a colon definition 12:40:33 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-3pool111-237.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 12:41:08 kc5tja, are you awake? 12:44:43 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 12:48:44 cleverdra: probably yes 12:49:01 just catering himself 12:49:22 cleverdra: r u still interested that acc gen problem? 12:49:57 why doesnt a : FOO CREATE , DOES> swap over +! @ ; definition is a proper solution? 12:51:22 anyway, im also thinkin about how can i create colon definitions programatically 12:51:39 dont u know how is that possible? 12:52:29 --- join: proteus (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 12:52:51 hi 12:55:03 onetom - the 'number' restriction 12:55:18 onetom - oh, that's easy. 12:55:49 : return-n: ( n "name" -- ) >r : ( -- n ) r> postpone literal postpone ; ; 12:55:59 A silly way to do it, but it's an explicit colon-definition =) 13:03:11 --- quit: proteus () 13:03:16 --- join: proteus (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 13:08:53 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:33:25 cleverdra: hmmm, letme think @ letme try 13:34:11 if you think of an answer, don't send it to Paul; he's decided (with some correctness) that you can't really do this in Forth. 13:34:22 : x : lit postpone + postpone ; ; didnt really worked 4 me :) 13:34:33 postpone literal 13:34:52 that way either 13:34:58 It works. 13:35:05 oh, but you ignored my return-stack manipulation 13:35:07 anyway what is the exact problem? 13:35:17 : tends to leave information on the stack. 13:35:27 foo ( n -- function ) 13:35:43 function ( i -- n+i) 13:35:44 ooor 13:35:53 http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html describes it fully 13:36:02 function ( i -- n+i-and-let-n+=i) 13:36:06 just note the 'number' requirement 13:36:16 sure it describes, but im not sure 13:36:28 coz the latest does accumlation 13:36:41 I don't understand your reference to 'latest' 13:36:44 but the provided examples doesnt seem 2 do 13:37:20 imeant, the 2nd function definitin 13:37:30 thats the latest 13:37:44 but ishould have said: later 13:37:45 sorry 13:38:28 functionally the following 2 constructs r satisfactory ithink: 13:38:46 : FOO CREATE , DOES> @ + ; 13:38:50 : FOO CREATE , DOES> swap over +! @ ; 13:39:08 for the two possible reading of the problem 13:39:31 the second 13:39:36 note the 'incremented by' requirement 13:39:49 but both are wrong due to the 'number' requirement 13:39:52 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 13:46:05 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe88.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 14:09:27 --- quit: proteus (Connection timed out) 14:43:25 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 14:46:04 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust193.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 14:46:33 Lord of Forth, be welcomed! 14:48:41 He's not the Lord of Forth. He's only the 4095th disciple. 14:49:01 * Robert wasn't that serious anyway. Hi to you too, kc5tja :) 14:49:17 Of course, I'm the -27th disciple. 14:49:36 You know, signed numbers and all that. It's not really negative, but... 14:51:09 i think im a much higher number than that, lots of better forthers than me 14:56:46 I 14:57:08 I'm number n, where n is the numbers of forthers in the world. 14:57:22 * Robert really feels like he's the worst forther ever :) 14:58:37 then im n +1 :) 14:58:58 That would mean you're not a forther. 14:59:15 btw, what happend with tcn's assembler? 15:01:10 tcn abandoned the idea 15:01:18 im stuck with it 15:02:20 robert, master writer of asm & hopefully reader of C, could u help developing a simple vmware display "driver"? 15:03:14 i could have some time for it now 15:04:47 Heh 15:04:54 I've never used vmware. 15:05:14 that doesnt count 15:05:25 I440r: How much must be written in asm? 15:05:30 Hrm, well... 15:05:37 the vmware X driver source is free 15:05:58 and is written in C 15:06:00 I don't feel like tweaking a tool I don't use, 1tom ;) 15:06:22 oh, its a virtual machine 15:06:33 so its pretty similar to a real 1 15:06:44 all u have to do is to turn it on 15:06:53 I know what it is, but I use Bochs instead. 15:07:03 robert NONE of the assembler is to be written in asm 15:07:19 Err... I mean, the meta-compiling isforth. 15:07:24 Not the assembler itself. 15:07:24 and u can see all those things happening usually a bootup just in a window 15:07:28 But the basic forth words. 15:07:40 k, let me see & try bochs 15:07:55 hey, its a *nix only program, isnt it? 15:08:05 everything that already is asm will be asm and ill convert some of the existing all forth sources to be forht and asm 15:09:21 Oh, okay... 15:09:32 How much in a self-compiling forth __has__ to be in asm? 15:09:50 everything that needs to be hehe 15:09:52 I mean, is it small enough to be written in an unreadable syntax / machine code? 15:09:56 Bleh. 15:10:03 NO 15:10:25 im not having a 5 # ax mov or something like mov |5 xx ^e4439 a;lkdf;kas 15:10:32 some cryptic crap like that 15:10:37 I don't mean IsForth, I mean a minimalistic Forth, that doesn't care about speed/size. 15:10:43 oh 15:10:44 hrm 15:10:57 pick a minimal CORE set of words and code them in asm 15:11:06 everything else could be forth 15:11:20 Robert: chk color4th sources ;) 15:11:36 Hmm... I think I'll do that sometime, onetom. 15:11:39 Robert: chuck doesnt really dealt w an assembler. 15:11:41 Anyone tried colorforth? 15:12:00 i was close 2 vomiting when ive understood that 15:12:48 those lot of 123ac3bf , 55bbcfa , 66ee , were x86 machine code :) 15:13:17 robert i was about 2 try it, but the orig cf 15:13:38 has that awkward keylayout that im too lazy 2 learn 15:14:05 so i started 2 discover enth/flux 15:14:53 but usually i made it hang so i couldnt really try its color4th part yet 15:15:29 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 15:15:40 tho, it worx pretty well -- thatis ive already managed 2 write a definition in it :) 15:16:08 btw, id like u to run enth/flux in some emulation environment 15:16:36 and make it 2 b able 2 switch 2 graphical mode 15:17:04 tho the latest enth/flux works in graphic mode 15:17:20 its incompatible w most hardware 15:17:47 thats why ive decided 2 run it inside some emulation env 1st 15:17:51 c? 15:20:20 Oh.. I see. 15:20:37 Well, I got quite a few boxes to test on, maybe it works on some of them ;) 15:20:47 btw, what kind of storage does cf use? 15:21:05 a floppy disk 15:21:10 nothin else 15:21:31 File system? Blocks? 15:21:36 but i really discourage u 2 try the cm version of cf 15:21:48 Hehe, what version do you recommend? 15:22:01 blocks?! hahh sectors! ;) 15:22:11 any version except that :) 15:22:16 enth/flux 15:22:27 it has a normal key layout 15:22:32 Hmm... what's the different? 15:22:33 difference* 15:22:35 and a nice editor 15:22:39 Oh. 15:22:40 joking? 15:22:41 Nice. 15:22:53 Well, I don't know anything about cf, or variants of it. 15:23:03 do u know how does a dvorak keylayout look like? 15:23:35 http://www.users.qwest.net/~loveall/c4index.htm 15:23:45 this site is your friend than :) 15:23:47 then 15:23:50 I mean, I wondered what the difference between Chuck's cf anf enth/flux was... I know dvorak is different, don't know how, though. 15:24:35 chk out the keyb layout & usage link 1st 15:25:06 and than have a look @ 15:25:10 http://colorforth.com/user.htm 15:25:23 this is under the users guide link 15:26:23 u dont have backspace just erase-word 15:26:38 u dont have all the letters & signs 15:27:46 what letter u have @all r distributed pretty different than a usual qwerty has them 15:28:29 tho, the layout is logical, learning it 1st distracts u from the real job: 15:28:38 discovering colorforth 15:29:43 tho, it also forces u 2 think any keypress twice :) 15:32:29