00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.08
00:00:38 <futhin> forth will conquer the universe, muahahahahah! :P
00:00:53 <futhin> i just emailed both chuck moore and jeff fox
00:01:10 <futhin> gotta get their blood boiling, gotta get them discussing forth with me
00:01:32 <futhin> cause i see myself as a go getter, i'm the man to make something happen
00:01:52 <futhin> i'm a lazy coder
00:01:56 <futhin> but i'm an entrepreneur
00:02:07 <futhin> and i LOVE disruptive technology
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03:03:33 <onetom> hey! anybody awake?
03:03:48 <onetom> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ExampleForthCode
03:05:21 <onetom>  : IMMEDIATE?   -1 = ;
03:05:21 <onetom>  : NEXTWORD     BL WORD FIND ;
03:05:21 <onetom>  : NUMBER,      NUMBER POSTPONE LITERAL ;
03:05:21 <onetom>  : COMPILEWORD  DUP IF IMMEDIATE? IF EXECUTE ELSE COMPILE, THEN ELSE NUMBER, THEN ;
03:05:22 <onetom>  : ]    BEGIN NEXTWORD COMPILEWORD AGAIN ;
03:05:22 <onetom>  : [    R> R> 2DROP ; IMMEDIATE ( Breaks out of compiler into interpret mode again )
03:05:33 <onetom> -------------
03:06:24 <onetom> the definition of NUMBER, seems bugy 2 me. it does no , doesit?
03:07:04 <onetom> shouldnt it look like : NUMBER, POSTPONE LITERAL NUMBER , ; ?
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04:17:13 <Serg_penguin> hi
05:04:49 <onetom> hi!
05:04:56 <onetom> whats up, man?
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06:04:36 <Serg_penguin> hi
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06:11:52 <Serg_penguin> hi
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07:46:06 <onetom> hey, kc!
07:46:11 <kc5tja> re onetom
07:46:19 * kc5tja just woke up.
07:46:27 <onetom> have u sen me latet question?
07:46:33 <onetom> latest
07:46:42 <kc5tja> No.
07:46:56 <onetom> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ExampleForthCode
07:47:17 <onetom>  : IMMEDIATE?   -1 = ;
07:47:17 <onetom>  : NEXTWORD     BL WORD FIND ;
07:47:17 <onetom>  : NUMBER,      NUMBER POSTPONE LITERAL ;
07:47:17 <onetom>  : COMPILEWORD  DUP IF IMMEDIATE? IF EXECUTE ELSE COMPILE, THEN ELSE NUMBER, THEN ;
07:47:17 <onetom>  : ]    BEGIN NEXTWORD COMPILEWORD AGAIN ;
07:47:19 <onetom>  : [    R> R> 2DROP ; IMMEDIATE ( Breaks out of compiler into interpret mode again )
07:47:25 <onetom> [12:15] <onetom> the definition of NUMBER, seems bugy 2 me. it does no , doesit?[12:15] <onetom> shouldnt it look like : NUMBER, POSTPONE LITERAL NUMBER , ; ?
07:48:00 <kc5tja> No
07:48:03 <kc5tja> It shouldn't.
07:48:14 <onetom> :( why? :)
07:48:25 <kc5tja> Because LITERAL is an immediate word that compiles a literal.
07:48:35 <kc5tja> What happens on machines that use native-code compilation?
07:48:50 <onetom> hmmm....
07:48:57 <kc5tja> , clearly won't work because injecting a number directly into the instruction stream will cause the program to crash.
07:49:14 <kc5tja> So LITERAL is responsible for emitting the proper code to push a literal onto the stack.
07:49:36 <onetom> but what does postpone do w literal?
07:49:52 <kc5tja> LITERAL is an immediate word.
07:49:56 <onetom> yup
07:50:00 <kc5tja> (WHY?  I have *NO* idea.)
07:50:09 <onetom> and how does postpone handles it?
07:50:44 <kc5tja> Postpone causes its compile-time semantics to run at execution time instead.
07:50:47 <cleverdra> POSTPONE LITERAL is [COMPILE] LITERAL is LITERAL-AT-RUNTIME-OF-THIS-WORD
07:50:54 <onetom> ah, ithink, im getting the point...
07:51:28 <cleverdra> (I've never liked LITERAL as an immediate word.)
07:51:39 <kc5tja> LITERAL has no business being immediate.
07:51:40 <onetom> ok, now its clear. thx
07:51:57 <kc5tja> I'll never forgive the ANSI committee for that.
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08:52:46 <onetom> proteusguy: hi. where does your name come from? i know about an electronics sw pkg developer company named proteus. their schematic sw is isis and the pcb drawing prg is ares
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08:58:40 <onetom> hi gil!
08:58:47 <GilbertBSD> hi One tom
08:58:51 <GilbertBSD> how is forth ?
09:00:24 <onetom> ldfkjh+!(=Ö/)+!=Z)ÖF!GI+dkfhgkjhdfkhgkjhgkjshkfgOJ%/OIJ
09:00:45 <GilbertBSD> is that right?
09:01:04 <onetom> sorry, twas lil guy is playing here beside me :)
09:01:09 <kc5tja> GilbertBSD: I don't know what your problem is, but that's perfectly readable Forth to me.  :D
09:01:21 <GilbertBSD> hahaha
09:03:54 <cleverdra> yeah, that's one word.  I wonder the definition is.
09:04:16 <cleverdra> bad, though, to have ) in the name =(
09:05:09 <GilbertBSD> it looks more like j/apl than forth though.
09:05:25 <GilbertBSD> perfect J
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09:09:53 <kc5tja> Hehe :)
09:09:55 <kc5tja> Befunge
09:13:07 <kc5tja> Gotta go...  work time.
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10:23:28 <futhin> howdy i440r
10:23:31 <futhin> read the article yet?! :P
10:23:44 * futhin is gonna nag you until you do ;)
10:23:53 <futhin> well
10:23:54 <futhin> naww
10:23:57 <I440r> no just got up brb, fucking wrong version of mirc is running
10:23:58 <futhin> i don't care :P
10:23:59 <I440r> im sure i upgraded
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10:28:05 <proteusguy> what article? there's a new article somewhere?? ;-)
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13:42:22 <onetom> http://www.zope.org/Members/cytux/ZForth
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14:01:38 <I440r> tcn dood
14:01:39 <I440r> argh
14:01:45 <I440r> missed him heh
14:02:39 <onetom> what do u want 2 ask from him?
14:03:33 <I440r> not much hehe
14:03:40 <I440r> im doing the assembler extension for isforth now
14:03:49 <onetom> ah, c
14:03:51 <I440r> was gona get him to help maybe :)
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14:15:32 <onetom> hi
14:15:41 <onetom> back from work?
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15:02:48 <I440r> empirion  <-- a new guy ?
15:04:16 <onetom> cmz so
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18:04:52 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:05:00 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!!
18:06:24 <kc5tja> Howdy :)
18:06:39 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: ok, mind explaining how this dual assembler syntax works?
18:06:46 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja :)
18:07:35 <I440r> tbw!
18:07:46 <TheBlueWizard> :)))
18:10:20 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: well?
18:10:26 <I440r> sure 
18:10:30 <I440r> hang on :)
18:10:46 <I440r> each instruction will have a word associated with it
18:10:50 <I440r>  mov ..., ...
18:11:05 <I440r>  the first thing each of these words does is call a;
18:11:11 <I440r> a; does NOT return
18:11:21 <I440r> it stores the return address away
18:11:24 <I440r> heres the code for a;
18:11:36 <I440r> 0 var ?a;                   \ address of word to complete last instruction
18:11:36 <I440r> : a;                        \ all instruction words start with an a;
18:11:36 <I440r>   ?a;                       \ get address of word to complete previous
18:11:36 <I440r>   r> !> ?a;                 \ save address to complete current
18:11:36 <I440r>   dup ?:                    \ is there a previous instruction to assemble?
18:11:37 <I440r>     >r                      \ yes - return to code to assemble it
18:11:39 <I440r>     drop ;          
18:11:50 <I440r> ?a; is initially 0 - its zeroed by 'code'
18:11:52 <I440r> so when we tyoe
18:11:54 <I440r> code foo
18:11:58 <I440r>  mov ax, # 3
18:12:00 <I440r>  ...
18:12:21 <I440r> mov is executed but it only gets as far as executing the a; it starts with 
18:12:26 <I440r> its return address is stored in ?a;
18:12:45 <I440r> ax, executes and sets a flag saying that ax is hthe destination register
18:12:52 <I440r> # executes saying there is an immediate
18:12:56 <I440r> 3 gets left on the stack
18:13:00 <I440r> on the NEXT instruction
18:13:07 <I440r>  mov bx, ax  ; or something
18:13:27 <I440r> the MOV does not return, it retunrs instead to the MOV of the PREVIOUS instruction
18:14:04 <I440r> so we have all the info we need to build the opcodes by the time the MOV or whatever word actually execues
18:14:10 <I440r> if we NOOPIFY a; we can have
18:14:15 <I440r> 5 # ax, mov
18:14:16 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...it sounds like a halfway house between interpreting and compiling mode
18:14:20 <I440r> 5 gets put on the stack
18:14:29 <I440r> # executes saying we have an immediate
18:14:37 <I440r> ax, executes saying ax is the destination register
18:14:48 <I440r> MOV executes, calls a; which does nothing and returns
18:14:58 <I440r> and.... we have all the info we need to build the opcode :)
18:15:47 <I440r> : a; ?a; @ r> ?a; ! dup if r> else drop then ;  
18:16:00 <I440r> thats basically a; but ive coded it woith var's instead of variables
18:17:00 <TheBlueWizard> I'll have to ponder on this...
18:17:01 <I440r> we basicakly pipe the return address of a; through a delay line :)
18:17:24 <I440r> we call a; for every instruction word but it always returns to the PREVIOUS instruction :)
18:18:30 <I440r> end-dode does an a; to complete the last instruction
18:18:48 <I440r> but as we never actually RETURN from that it has to be the last thing that end-code does
18:19:18 <I440r> : i:
18:19:19 <I440r>   :                         \ create the instruction word
18:19:19 <I440r>   compile a; ;              \ start word with an a;
18:19:19 <I440r> \ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
18:19:19 <I440r> i: aaa $37 c, ;
18:19:19 <I440r> i: aas $3f c, ;
18:19:32 <I440r> i: creates a simple 1 byte instruction
18:19:34 <I440r> so if i do
18:19:35 <I440r>  code foo
18:19:38 <I440r>  aaa
18:19:40 <I440r>  aas
18:19:43 <I440r> end-code
18:19:51 <I440r> the aaa gets compiled when we call aas.
18:19:59 <I440r> the aas gets compiled when we call end-code
18:21:36 <I440r> so aaa is basically a : aaa a; $37 c, ;
18:21:48 <I440r> im gona try make it so i can do 
18:21:53 <I440r> $37 i: aaa
18:21:57 <TheBlueWizard> I see...so the idea is to kind of buffer the instruction parts until it encounter the next assembly "statement" (however that is meant), whereupon that buffer get interpreted, eh?
18:22:09 <I440r> yes
18:22:35 <I440r> hehe its making 'defered' words out of each instruction :)
18:23:38 <TheBlueWizard> interesting...!
18:24:25 <I440r> its not realy a defered word in teh usual sense
18:24:50 <I440r> its a defered word thats triggered by the next word :)
18:25:07 <I440r> pasm and pasm366 use a similar mechanism but not the same
18:25:14 <I440r> i dont understand that one fully
18:25:20 <I440r> pasm is the one in fpc
18:27:00 <TheBlueWizard> I never have used fpc, so I'm not familiar with those stuff
18:33:29 <I440r> appendix d: instruction set reference from intel
18:33:33 <I440r> FUCKED UP!!!!!!!!!!!
18:33:35 <I440r> WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:33:46 <I440r> it gives insb and outsb as having opcode $aa
18:33:53 <I440r> insb is $6c
18:33:59 <I440r> outsb is... 
18:34:30 <TheBlueWizard> which manual?
18:34:30 <I440r> $6e
18:34:50 <I440r> hang on ill find out :)
18:35:55 <I440r> i was assuming this appendix d is from their software devel manual 2
18:36:00 <I440r> but that only has appendix a and b
18:36:04 <I440r> maybe this isnt an intel dox
18:36:19 <I440r> or maybe they dont ship it with the downloadable manual
18:36:29 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...."checkk before flaming" ;)
18:36:30 <kc5tja> The Intel docs I have have the correct opcodes.
18:37:01 <I440r> it has the same format as other intel dox and its in pdf format, very professionaly done
18:37:03 <I440r> but WRONG
18:37:19 <I440r> thats 4 instructions ive found wrong in it and so far ive only looked at the EASY ones
18:37:44 <TheBlueWizard> heh...interesting to know...I only have 386 dox, plus NASM x86 dox
18:37:47 <I440r> and the only reason i found them is because i saw that two instructions have the same opcode
18:38:13 <I440r> the nasm doc is good but the information is badly formatted for someone wanting to write an assembler
18:39:23 <TheBlueWizard> brb
18:39:49 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> tbw-afk
18:50:28 --- nick: tbw-afk -> TheBlueWizard
18:50:32 <TheBlueWizard> back
18:51:16 <futhin> you don't have to let anyone know when you are gone, i440r could've kept on ranting ;)
18:53:14 <I440r> :)
18:53:23 <I440r> heh
18:53:52 <I440r> that wasnt a rant
18:53:55 <I440r> it was a mini rant
18:53:58 <I440r> i was already finished
18:54:42 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:54:51 <TheBlueWizard> what rant? :)
18:55:02 <I440r> exactly!
18:55:39 <futhin> "FUCKED UP!!!!!!!"
18:55:43 <futhin> that's a rant in my book :)
18:55:47 <futhin> <-- also likes to rant
18:55:52 <I440r> :)
18:56:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
18:56:55 <TheBlueWizard> hiya futhin
18:57:01 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:57:06 --- topic: set to 'http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm | Forth: using bits without limits | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by futhin
18:57:20 --- mode: futhin set -o futhin
18:57:28 <futhin> thebluewizard: check out http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm   :)
18:58:42 * TheBlueWizard is checking it out now
19:04:05 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
19:05:03 <TheBlueWizard> that "high profit" is happening everywhere nowadays...for example, ever notice that restaurants serve up big meals now?  why? cuz they get bigger amount of money to line their pockets that way
21:53:05 --- log: started forth/02.08.08
21:53:05 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
21:53:05 --- topic: 'http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm | Forth: using bits without limits | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com'
21:53:05 --- topic: set by futhin on [Thu Aug 08 18:57:06 2002]
21:53:05 --- names: list (clog njd kc5tja I440r_ Soap` Mongrel @ChanServ Fractal futhin onetom rob_ert sif)
21:58:58 <I440r_> err i think sp, should be an illegal register no ?
21:59:10 <I440r_>  mov sp, xxx in linux ?
21:59:11 <I440r_> heh
22:00:47 <kc5tja> If you *REALLY* want to do that, I guess you can.
22:00:55 <kc5tja> But mov esp, xxx can be useful in some cases.
22:01:07 <I440r_> well yes. ESP, will be supported but NOT sp,
22:07:47 <I440r_> how would you write mov ax, bx in your assembler ?
22:07:58 <I440r_> ax, bx mov or bx ax, mov
22:18:21 <I440r_> ooh hehe push eip could be encoded as 
22:18:25 <I440r_>  call L1
22:18:27 <I440r_> l1:
22:18:30 <I440r_> :)
22:18:51 * kc5tja nods :)
22:19:13 <I440r_> would do that as a macro tho prolly
22:19:54 <I440r_> (not planning on doing so, just an observation :)
22:20:21 <kc5tja> Hehe :)
22:21:23 <kc5tja> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FsForthForDos -- Check it out.  (I'm thinking of using that Wiki temporarily as an online documentation repository until I can get some decent system setup here)
22:25:12 <I440r_> what is a wiki ?
22:25:21 <I440r_> i still havnt figured that out
22:27:28 <kc5tja> It's a community whiteboard.
22:28:02 <I440r_> anyone can write anything they want?
22:28:19 <I440r_> its basically a wall anyone can graphiti ?
22:28:20 <kc5tja> Wiki Wiki in Hawaiian means "really fast".  Wikis allow one to edit webpages very quickly.  It's automatic hyperlinking engine creates a fully meshed and indexed sites nearly instantaneously.
22:28:21 <kc5tja> Yes.
22:29:04 <kc5tja> Some of the more recent Wikis are protected, but once authenticated, you can do whatever you want to any page you want.
22:29:56 <I440r_> u mean i can edit YOUR page ?
22:30:28 <I440r_> isnt that subject to abuse ?
22:30:38 <kc5tja> Like what you just did?
22:31:04 <I440r_> ?
22:31:10 <kc5tja> My edits are gone, completely.
22:31:16 <I440r_> err. no
22:31:21 <I440r_> i didnt touch nuttin
22:31:25 <futhin> kc5tja: i just checked the wiki
22:31:31 <futhin> there was nothing
22:31:39 <I440r_> i went to the url you gave me, looked at it and closed it
22:31:41 <I440r_> NO edits
22:31:41 <futhin> (i checked it a few minutes ago
22:31:45 <futhin> yeah
22:31:46 <futhin> no edits
22:31:59 <futhin> i didn't see anything written
22:32:00 <futhin> that is
22:32:23 <kc5tja> It's gone.
22:32:26 <kc5tja> Someone just hosed it.
22:32:42 <I440r_> i get the fs forth for dos page
22:32:48 <futhin> that sucks
22:32:49 <kc5tja> So yes, it's completely open to abuse.
22:33:02 <futhin> kc5tja: try the sleepless night forth wiki
22:33:13 <futhin> hey
22:33:15 <futhin> the stuff is back
22:33:28 <futhin> there's content at c2 fsforthfordos
22:34:12 <kc5tja> Yeah.
22:34:24 <kc5tja> I find it coincidental that I440r mentions it, and it happens.
22:34:35 <kc5tja> Then whoever it is realizes that I noticed it, and puts it back.
22:34:40 <kc5tja> Without good formatting at that.
22:34:44 <I440r_> lol
22:34:47 <I440r_> not me
22:35:08 <I440r_> kc5 i would not ever do anything distructive like that
22:35:10 <I440r_> not even as a joke
22:36:27 <futhin> nor me
22:36:44 <futhin> seems very bizarre
22:41:24 <I440r_> erm so mov [eax], bx would need an operand override ?
22:41:43 <I440r_> assuming 32 bit mode (im not supporting 16 bit mode)
22:41:44 <kc5tja> Yes
22:42:47 <I440r_> so any time i use 16 bit reg as a source or destination ill need an operand override - ok
22:43:05 <kc5tja> I restored the original text from my browser's cache, BTW...that's why it came back.
22:43:28 <I440r_> so its realy not there ?
22:43:49 <kc5tja> It is again, yes.
22:43:55 <I440r_> ok
22:43:57 <kc5tja> I just said, I restored it from cache.
22:43:57 <kc5tja> :)
22:44:14 <kc5tja> When futhin said, "Oh, it's back again," that was me.
22:44:48 <Soap`> Sounds like the wiki could use some sort of rollback feature?
22:45:05 <kc5tja> Unfortunately, I'm not an administrator of the site.
22:45:29 <Soap`> :/
22:45:29 <kc5tja> I don't think it stores the pages using any form of content versioning technology.
22:45:43 <kc5tja> It's literally the first Wiki ever written.  And it's in *shudder* Perl.
22:46:20 <I440r_> lol
22:48:33 <kc5tja> Fortunately, I got everything "backed up" in my notebook (I wrote it there first).
22:48:43 <kc5tja> I only posted it on the Wiki so you folks could see it.  :)
22:49:17 <I440r_> hehe im off to bed (actually to code in bed :)
22:49:20 <I440r_> nite folx
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23:30:47 --- quit: sbk_ (Client Quit)
23:36:50 --- quit: njd (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:55:33 <kc5tja> OK, I'm going to bed now.
23:55:41 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.08