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00:03:46 <kc5tja> OK, I'm off to bed.
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09:54:54 <Speuler> 'day
10:07:38 <futhin> g'day
10:08:19 <I440r> bongo can you help me write an assembler ?
10:09:07 <futhin> src dest opcode
10:09:11 <futhin> dest src opcode
10:09:17 <futhin> opcode dest src
10:10:45 <futhin> opcode dest src endopcode
10:10:59 <futhin> , = endopcode
10:11:17 <futhin> opcode = reads ahead, integrates dest and src and stops at ,
10:11:29 <futhin> what's wrong with this?!?!
10:26:49 <Speuler> I440r: u know i'm fan of reverse polish,   src dest op
10:27:09 <Speuler> futhin: u were quicker :)
10:27:50 <futhin> why can't we have it non-reversed?
10:27:56 <futhin> opcode dest src
10:28:05 <Speuler> because that's too intel
10:28:27 <futhin> sure, but that's what i440r wants :P
10:28:37 <Speuler> and probably we need to parse input
10:28:56 <futhin> i'm sure that tricks could be employed to avoid parsing the input
10:29:14 <futhin> opcode dest src ,
10:29:20 <futhin> opcode could leave something on the stack
10:29:24 <futhin> and dest and src also do that
10:29:30 <futhin> then , puts them all together
10:29:33 <futhin> and saves it
10:30:06 <futhin> doesn't that sound like a good idea?
10:30:34 <Speuler> if feasable, it'd do in the need for parsing
10:30:48 * Speuler is not at all a fan of parsing stream
10:31:06 <futhin> why?  too slow?
10:31:18 <Speuler> not callable
10:31:34 <futhin> eh? that's news to me
10:31:38 <futhin> how is it not callable?
10:32:11 <Speuler> you process text literals rather than results
10:32:33 <futhin> hmm
10:33:14 <Speuler> you can argue "you could execute the text literals" but,
10:33:35 <Speuler> than i'd have to ask you "why not do in in an interpreter-friendly order"
10:34:11 <futhin> yeah
10:34:32 <futhin> wouldn't it be fun to have a word that was the carriage return?
10:34:53 <futhin> so that at the end of the line it gets executed and it's invis too ;)
10:34:55 <Speuler> that existed in older forths.
10:35:01 <Speuler> that was the empty word
10:35:05 <futhin> ahh
10:35:07 <Speuler> redefinable :)
10:35:16 <futhin> it was completely empty?
10:35:24 <Speuler> zero string
10:35:28 <Speuler> same as char 0
10:35:29 <futhin> : <thispartisinvis> dostuff ;
10:36:06 <futhin> okay, going afk for a few hours, ttyl
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10:41:18 <Speuler> at end of line, a asc(0)  was looked up in dict, and executed
10:42:55 <Speuler> I440r: consider: normalize opcode src dest (taking out white space, convert literals etc),
10:43:24 <Speuler> then parametrize register and the like (for later bitcode insertion)
10:43:37 <Speuler> addresses too (address insertion)
10:43:52 <Speuler> than hash the resulting pseudomnemonic,
10:44:16 <Speuler> have opcode pseudopars returned,
10:44:20 <Speuler> compile them,
10:44:38 <Speuler> do register, literal, address insertion
10:45:22 <Speuler> (don't know how feasible that is, just an idea)
10:49:33 <kc5tja> Does anyone know if there is a good Forth Wiki in existance?  I'm not talking about a Wiki written in Forth, but rather, a Wiki with Forth as its primary subject matter?
10:49:42 <futhin> there are two forth wikis
10:49:49 <futhin> wikis involving the subject of forth
10:49:59 * kc5tja nods -- where are they?
10:50:24 <futhin> google "forth wiki" brings up both of them   sleepless night wiki is the second one
10:50:34 <futhin> woops
10:50:37 <futhin> there are three wikis
10:50:58 <futhin> the first one that google brings up sucks & dead
10:51:06 <futhin> the next two are the good ones
10:51:22 <futhin> (sucks & IS dead)
10:52:48 <kc5tja> The second one (c2.com) just links to the first.
10:53:15 <kc5tja> However, it appears to have a sizable local collection of material.  However, I'm not sure how often it's maintained.
10:53:20 <futhin> no no no
10:53:21 <futhin> c2 is good
10:54:18 <futhin> c2 has a link to sleepless night wiki
10:54:23 <futhin> but c2 also has lots of content
10:54:39 <futhin> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ForthLanguage
10:55:02 <futhin> http://kristopherjohnson.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main
10:55:05 <futhin> those are the two forth wikis
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11:44:47 * kc5tja is updating the ExampleForthCode page on c2.com
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12:28:03 <kc5tja> Back; I lost my network connection.
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13:59:51 --- log: stopped forth/02.08.07
14:00:19 --- log: started forth/02.08.07
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14:00:19 --- topic: 'Forth: using bits without limits | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com'
14:00:19 --- topic: set by futhin on [Sun Jul 28 18:42:21 2002]
14:00:19 --- names: list (clog kc5tja I440r goshawk` rob_ert sif onetom futhin FareAway @ChanServ Soap` Fractal)
14:37:10 <kc5tja> There.  Update is complete.
15:04:31 <onetom> ? what update
15:11:21 <kc5tja> I updated a Forth page on a wiki
15:11:44 <kc5tja> c2.com's wiki in particular; ExampleForthCode
15:11:48 <kc5tja> And I created ForthBlocks
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16:06:20 <onetom> kc5tja: i was deeply enchanted by browsing the wiki and paegs about wiki too :)
16:06:41 <onetom> kc5tja: but now, im gonna chk your extensions
16:06:55 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
16:07:13 * kc5tja finally got a chance to try out ColorForth (c4w -- ColorForth for Windows).
16:07:23 <kc5tja> That's a very different experience.
16:07:31 <kc5tja> But certainly not at all unpleasant.
16:07:32 <kc5tja> brb
16:09:33 <onetom> hey! c4w?!?!?
16:10:57 <kc5tja> Yes.
16:11:02 <kc5tja> It's not terribly stable right now.
16:11:04 <onetom> i do demand a url! :)
16:11:11 <kc5tja> Just a second.
16:11:13 * kc5tja looks
16:11:35 <kc5tja> It's only tested with Windows 2000, but it should work with most any Win32 platform.
16:11:56 <onetom> anyway, i havent found ExampleForthCode @ c2.com :(
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : NEWSTATE   STATEBLK @ BLOCK UPDATE STATEP ! ;
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : STATE!   STATEP @ C! 1 STATEP +! ;
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : ALIVE   42 STATE! ;
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : DEAD   32 STATE! ;
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : ITERATE-CELL   2DUP SWAP LIVES? IF ALIVE ELSE DEAD THEN ;
16:13:24 <kc5tja> : ITERATE-ROW  0 BEGIN DUP 64 < WHILE ITERATE-CELL 1+ REPEAT DROP ;
16:13:26 <kc5tja> : ITERATE-BLOCK   0 BEGIN DUP 16 < WHILE ITERATE-ROW 1+ REPEAT DROP ;
16:13:28 <kc5tja> : GENERATION   LIFEBLK @ STATEBLK @ LIFEBLK ! STATEBLK ! ;
16:13:30 <kc5tja> : ITERATE   NEWSTATE ITERATE-BLOCK GENERATION ;
16:13:32 <kc5tja> : DONE?   KEY [CHAR] Q = ;
16:13:34 <kc5tja> : PROMPT   CR ." PRESS Q TO EXIT; OTHER KEY TO CONTINUE" ;
16:13:36 <kc5tja> : VIEW   PAGE LIFEBLK @ LIST PROMPT ;
16:13:38 <kc5tja> : LIFE   BEGIN VIEW ITERATE DONE? UNTIL ;
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16:13:40 * kc5tja cracks up...
16:13:42 <kc5tja> ROTFLMFO!!!
16:13:44 <kc5tja> http://www.strangegizmo.com/forth/ColorForth/msg00734.html
16:13:46 <kc5tja> There -- that's the URL.
16:13:52 <kc5tja> It helps if I cut first before pasting, eh??? ;D
16:14:05 <onetom> already got it :)
16:14:23 <onetom> imean, your modifications, not c4w
16:14:48 <kc5tja> The URL I just posted is for C4W.
16:15:23 <kc5tja> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ForthLanguage is for the ForthLanguage root, from which you can see my modifications to ExampleForthCode.
16:17:23 <onetom> how can i find this 4th wiki from the c2.com root?
16:18:47 <kc5tja> onetom: I didn't bother trying.  
16:19:04 <kc5tja> onetom: I just googled for Forth Wiki, and clicked on the c2.com link (third link down IIRC).
16:23:53 <onetom> c :)
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17:35:49 <kc5tja> I need to get going.  Time for aikido.
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17:46:42 <CrowKiller> hi
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18:07:13 <Speuler> b'tardes
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18:25:17 <I440r> just fixed a bug in isforth
18:25:21 <I440r> a realy DUMB one
18:25:52 <I440r> i was searching the context stack BACKWARDS!!! hehe
18:26:02 <I440r> i.e. i would find OLDER definitions first
18:26:02 <I440r> bleh
18:26:21 <I440r> i also got the makings of an assembler now
18:26:38 <I440r> so far it can only assemble 4 instructions
18:26:41 <I440r> aaa
18:26:42 <I440r> aas
18:26:51 <I440r> aad (with or without an immediate)
18:26:57 <I440r> aam (with or without an immediate)
18:27:04 <I440r> but its a start :)
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18:30:19 <I440r> thefox!!!
18:30:27 <I440r> hi dood, ltns!
18:30:43 <thefox> ltns?
18:31:03 <I440r> im trying to write an assembler for isforth, its not easy. so far it can only do 4 instructions :)
18:31:09 <I440r> ltns = long time no see :)
18:31:17 <thefox> ah
18:31:34 <I440r> but its in the form 'mov ax, # 5' not '5 # ax mov'
18:31:40 <I440r> which i cant get my head arround
18:32:33 <thefox> the order never bothered me, but for using source from a debugger output or known format is nice
18:33:23 <thefox> so what subset of x-86 will you plan to support?
18:33:31 <I440r> i still dont quite understand the modrm and sib stuff yet, like how i can encode which address/memory is the source and which is the destination
18:33:40 <I440r> p5 includintg mmx and sse and all fpu
18:33:47 <I440r> erm p4
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18:35:18 <I440r> so far i can assemble aaa, aas, aad with or without the immediate and aam with or without the immediate
18:35:42 <thefox> aah
18:35:50 <I440r> ill do all the EASY instructions first hehe
18:36:00 <I440r> ones with no modrm or sib etc heh
18:36:03 <Speuler> I440r: you work through the mnemonics alphabetically ??
18:36:20 <I440r> speuler so far yes :)
18:36:39 <I440r> they are not only the first 4 documented in this doc but they are also EASY ones heh
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18:37:09 <I440r> lol chanserv
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18:37:19 * Speuler like "nop" a lot
18:37:24 <I440r> lol
18:37:35 <I440r> nop is a VERY easy one :)
18:37:43 <I440r> $ea on a 6502 :)
18:37:47 <I440r> 00 on an 8051
18:37:53 <I440r> hrm not sure what it is on x86
18:38:03 <Speuler> t0x90 i think
18:38:11 <I440r> 00 makes the most sense to me for a nop
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18:38:19 <I440r> 0x90 on a x86
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18:39:02 <I440r> trying to remember 68k opcode for nop
18:39:23 <thefox> the actual choice of opcode values is an interesting subject
18:39:42 <I440r> yea, multiple encodings for some instructions
18:39:53 <Speuler> indeed. gives you hints about the architecture
18:40:12 <I440r> the a86 assembler always encodes certain opcodes in certain ways so EJI can tell if a given program was assembled with his assembler
18:40:45 <I440r> he says if a program has his assemblers footprint it was assembled with his assembler even if it wasnt :)
18:43:04 <thefox> sometimes you can figure out undocumented opcodes that actually work
18:43:27 <I440r> i knew all the undocumented 6502 opcodes
18:43:31 <I440r> made use of them
18:43:37 <I440r> also made use of the indirect jump bug
18:44:03 <I440r> and back then 99% of the so called professional 6502 coders were oblivious to teh undoc and processor bugs :)
18:45:00 <thefox> was it a page boundary bug?
18:45:23 <I440r> yes
18:45:37 <thefox> i vaugley recall it
18:45:41 <I440r> jmp [01ff] collected teh address from 01ff and 0100
18:45:50 <I440r> no carry into the hi byte
18:46:23 <I440r> and the bug existed in every single derivative of the 6502 because they were all cut from teh original 6502 masks
18:49:34 <I440r> so what u been up to tehfox?
18:49:52 <I440r> i got a contract to reverse engineer some 8051 code that the post office lost the sources to heh
18:49:55 <thefox> one of the few times I ever bested Chuck on some code I cheated, I used an undocumented instruction on a chip that he designed.
18:50:04 <I440r> lol
18:50:13 <I440r> oh yea. hows chuck ?
18:50:29 <thefox> I did some consulting work and made a nice road trip,  Chuck was fine the last time I saw him.
18:50:37 <I440r> cool
18:51:32 <thefox> I wrote an essay since my last visit and added a bunch of stuff to the ut store including ting's eforth cd.
18:51:41 <I440r> cool
18:52:15 <I440r> im entering a go game from dr dobbs toolbook of forth in isforth too
18:52:31 <I440r> i think ting had a hand in that code
18:52:34 <I440r> let me look
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18:52:55 <thefox> many of the eforth can be gleaned from the net, but he has a bunch of fig-forth, f83, fpc and lots of eforths as well as several nice manuals like the fpc technical manual and user manual and full sources to p8, p16 and p24 complete with eforth test suites etc.
18:52:59 <I440r> yup :)
18:53:23 <I440r> ting should hang here too :)
18:53:39 <I440r> he posts on clf rite ?
18:53:44 <I440r> occasionally
18:53:49 <thefox> Chuck said that a go game in colorforth might be a project.  He has been studying the problem.
18:54:04 <I440r> cool :)
18:54:10 <I440r> i cant even remember how to play go hehe
18:54:28 <thefox> no, ting has never postefed to usenet and chuck has only done it about 4 times
18:54:48 <I440r> mostly im at odds with what the ppl say there
18:54:57 <thefox> they have dan grades in go, like martial arts.
18:55:00 <I440r> the only reason i joined that group is to give isforth some press heh
18:55:07 <I440r> ya i know heh
18:55:17 <I440r> they do in chess too sorta
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18:55:44 <thefox> comp.lang.forth should really have a different name, but they wouldn't me to provide suggestions.
18:56:04 <futhin> hi thefox, long time no see :)
18:56:16 <I440r> futhin that was original :P
18:56:26 <futhin> i emailed you about forthchips, but i'm not sure if i got a reply from you
18:56:33 <I440r> comp.lang.forth.abuse ?
18:56:34 <I440r> heh
18:56:56 <futhin> thefox: don't leave until i check my email! :P
18:57:04 <I440r> hi mongrel :)
18:57:27 <thefox> i was away, and have had some computer hardware problems I am not all caught up on email  about a month behind to a couple of people.
18:57:42 <I440r> ouch
18:57:58 <I440r> gotta hate those computer problems
18:58:05 <I440r> i was hoping your absence here meant you were working :)
18:59:05 <thefox> i was, i also hoped that i would get paid.  Oh well the work was fun....
18:59:06 <I440r> eek! you wernt paid ?
18:59:18 <I440r> i would have done the work and then witheld it
18:59:23 <I440r> no pay, no play
18:59:40 <I440r> its amazing what one can do with pkzip and a password
18:59:51 <futhin> that's hackable
18:59:52 <thefox> at least I collected some entertaining technical information, documents, etc.
18:59:53 <I440r> you got my work, now just you go ahead and try USING it.
19:00:01 <I440r> pay me and ill unlock it :)
19:00:09 <I440r> yea but that doesnt pay the bills
19:03:11 <thefox> i reread an interesting essay on the web today that mentions me about a dozen times.   i agree with most of it but don't think of myself as an emotional type and have some different ideas about sucess/failure.
19:04:32 <thefox> http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm  I may put a link to it from my site and ask people for feedback
19:06:38 <thefox> but I do feel somewhat reenergized to work on several fun projects that have just been siting around collecting dust.
19:06:48 <futhin> thefox:  i am curious how you or chuck moore make a living??  there doesn't seem to be much of a market for forth stuff ???
19:07:58 <thefox> that's a good question.  I don't know the answer.  Chuck is currently selling his home.  I sold mine way back when.
19:08:24 <I440r> damn i hope i dont have to sell mine, i already almost lost it :(
19:08:48 <thefox> I get good offers about every 3 months, few materialize into paychecks, you know the story.  
19:08:48 <I440r> thefox will chuck work in other languages to pay the bills ?
19:08:54 <thefox> no
19:09:32 <futhin> thefox:  well you make it sound like you guys had previously made money, but now the market is lean..   _how_ did you guys previously make money ?
19:09:38 <I440r> even i will code in c if they pay me enough heh
19:10:05 <I440r> doing real time embedded. up till a year ago i was making 70+k a year and my father was making the same
19:10:28 <thefox> Chuck once said, maybe I need to put on a suit and a tie and play the corporate game and ...  Then Min, his wife, yelled "No Chuck."
19:10:37 <futhin> lol
19:10:46 <I440r> heheh
19:11:09 * futhin would be happy to play the corporate game for chuck & forth ;)
19:11:30 <thefox> We were employees at ITV, other stuff is consulting when possible.
19:11:31 <I440r> soon as i win the lottery chuck moore is gona get some backing :)
19:11:31 <futhin> i'm an entrepreneurial type  i guess
19:11:54 <futhin> same here
19:12:04 <futhin> except my plan was to get rich with real estate investing or something
19:12:14 <I440r> hmmmm i think you have to buy a ticket tho rite ? heh
19:12:33 <thefox> chuck should be a "fellow" from a research fund.
19:12:56 <futhin> fellowship ?
19:14:11 <thefox> The corporate stuff was my job for a while.  I don't mind wearing a nice suit but the shoes must be comfortable.  I have deal with a lot of suits in conventional jobs at places like pac bell and bank of america.
19:14:59 <thefox> like an "IBM Fellow",  get a salary and retirement for research, you are in charge etc.
19:15:34 <I440r> even tesla got backing :(
19:16:19 <thefox> Chuck is more of a research type than a developer, but he is frustrated that none of his research has made it into production.
19:17:02 <I440r> it will after he dies, then all teh vultures will come in and take it
19:17:34 <thefox> not that we haven't tried.  the trouble is that people with money want to make the decisions since they bring the money and ...
19:17:46 * Speuler has a broken nc4000 still lying around somewhere
19:18:01 <Speuler> electrocuted:(
19:18:06 <Mongrel> I440r: /whois Speuler
19:18:22 * Speuler alias bongo
19:18:24 <Mongrel> I440r: Sorry bout that.
19:19:04 <thefox> any opinions on the url that i listed, Forth's_Dilemma?
19:19:37 <Mongrel> thefox: Can you give the URL again, I just came on #forth
19:20:10 <futhin> http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm
19:20:36 <Mongrel> futhin: thanx
19:20:38 <futhin> thefox:  i am private messaging you, i would like to talk to you
19:20:51 <thefox> I worked part time as a consultant earning quite a bit and part time before I switched to full/over time
19:21:02 <thefox> work on UT stuff. ;-)
19:22:56 <thefox> I have not yet checked out the Christenson book 'the Innovater's Dilemma' (?)  Has anyone here read it?
19:23:59 <I440r> dammit i hate it when you get a new isp and 2 days later your getting SPAM in yor mailbox
19:24:10 <I440r> you KNOW the fucking isp sold the fucking email address :(
19:24:12 <Mongrel> I440r: Spamassassin
19:24:29 <I440r> is that some sort of utility ? heh
19:24:29 <Mongrel> I440r: I got the same thing from my ISP
19:24:37 --- nick: futhin -> thinfu
19:25:00 <I440r> mongrel you downloaded isforth yet ??? :)
19:25:20 <Mongrel> I440r: Yeah, procmail pies to Spamassassin, which marks your mail as Spam, than procmail can put the Spam in a separate mailbox, or /dev/null
19:26:08 <Mongrel> I440r: No but I bookmarked it, hold on, I want to read the Forth's Dilemma, then I have some questions for you
19:26:24 <Mongrel> s/pies/pipes/ 
19:26:32 <I440r> realy i should just tell my isp to cansel the account and open a new one at no charge with a new user name and to NOT fucking give my address out
19:26:49 <I440r> k
19:29:17 <I440r> woo hoo cisco whent up by 92c today :P
19:29:44 <I440r> when it goes up by $92 then ill realy woo hoo :)
19:30:48 <thinfu> thefox: I am _very_ interested about the forth condition and about helping to create a market for forth and/or forthchips.  I am not interested in perverting the forth philosophy (as per chuck moore's philosophy).  I would like to explore various aspects of forth with you..   
19:31:29 <thinfu> chuck moore responded to my emails recently, and I am planning on setting up an irc discussion with him and some people that are interested in seeing forthchips produced
19:31:35 <thinfu> and we're going to try to brainstorm and such
19:34:06 <thefox> i'll be away from the screen for a few minutes, but i'll be back.
19:36:19 --- nick: thinfu -> futhin
19:36:44 <Mongrel> thefox: Just finished reading Forth's Dilemma, I think the problem is that this basically falls on deaf ears. And those of us that listen are pretty much powerless to do anything.
19:37:08 <Mongrel> I440r: Ok so about isForth...
19:37:31 <I440r> k
19:37:34 <I440r> im here :)
19:38:34 <Mongrel> I440r: Not to knock your efforts, but is there anything you're aiming to do with it that gforth can't do. I like gforth, but since it runs on top of Linux, I find it lacking.
19:39:08 <I440r> gforth is written in c
19:39:14 <I440r> therefore its not a real forth imho
19:39:16 <futhin> mongrel:  isforth was handcoded in asm, it's got the handcrafted touch ;)
19:39:52 <I440r> isforth is NOT ans compliant (the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name - chuck moore)
19:40:04 <Mongrel> I440r: yeah I see your point, but even with asm in Linux, the kernel gets in the way.
19:40:26 <I440r> mongrel no it doesnt, not if you KNOW the kernel :)
19:40:29 <I440r> and im learning
19:40:54 <I440r> isforth is already an almost complete replacement for both libc and ncurses and is 30k in size
19:41:34 <Mongrel> I440r: So you basically still have to rely on syscalls rather than going directly to the processor.
19:41:35 <I440r> i have an almost finished sockets library coded in forth (need to get dns working tho)
19:42:13 <I440r> mongrel you mean i go directly to the kernel via syscalls instead of passing the buck to some lame ass c library middle man which would only serve to slow me down anyway
19:42:27 <I440r> 100% of the kernel syscalls are supported
19:42:33 <Mongrel> I440r: yeah. 
19:42:40 <I440r> not all are implemented but if its not there YOU can add it
19:43:05 <Mongrel> I440r: What's the license on it, are you looking for possible contributions.
19:43:42 <I440r> my lisence is a MODIFIED LGPL
19:43:58 <Mongrel> I440r: Hmmm, interesting
19:44:02 <I440r> i.e. its lgpl but any commercial application compiled with it can have ANY lisence YOu want it to have
19:44:18 <I440r> and i want as much contributed as i can get hehe
19:44:28 <I440r> but i have certain standards with regards to coding
19:44:29 <Mongrel> I440r: I think that's pretty much how the LGPL says it, if not BSD should cover that
19:44:41 <I440r> and they are almost 100% diametrically opposed to linus's standards
19:44:56 <Mongrel> I440r: I like that already
19:44:57 <I440r> lgpl only works if you arent statically linked to teh library
19:45:20 <Mongrel> I440r: I think BSD allows 
19:45:37 <I440r> all programs compiled under isforth will effectivly be statically linked to my kernel and lgpl basically calls them a derivative work - i exclude this claus :)
19:45:57 <Mongrel> I440r: When you say kernel, elaborate.
19:46:16 <I440r> the forth compiler has an inner core, its called the kernel
19:46:29 <Mongrel> I440r: Ok (Brain Fart).
19:46:31 <I440r> its a set of BASIC forth words required to build any application
19:46:47 <I440r> right now you ASSEMBLE the forth kernel using nasm
19:46:58 <I440r> then you run the kernel and have IT compile some extensions
19:47:16 <I440r> im working on an assembler extension right now so i can dispense with using nasm
19:48:00 <Mongrel> I440r: Lovely. How are you working the source, do you have it on a CVS ?
19:48:31 <I440r> no, im not using cvs for version control, im using prcs locally and when i do a release i just tgz it up and put it on the web page
19:48:52 <Mongrel> I440r: Sp basically you're accepting and reviewing patches?
19:49:00 <I440r> i used to have a SF account but i was spending more time 'managing' sf than i was coding
19:49:26 <I440r> nope. prefer to see the modified sources than patch files, i cant read a patch file heh
19:49:35 <I440r> right now there is ONE developer
19:49:55 <I440r> mostly thats all there has been. tho tcn was teh one who got the compiler working in the first place
19:50:06 <I440r> nobody but myself working on it right now 
19:50:27 <I440r> mongrel does your brother come on irc ?
19:50:40 <Mongrel> I440r: No, not that I know of.
19:50:56 <I440r> mongrel try get him hooked on irc so he can hang in here :)
19:51:14 <I440r> is he an advanced forth coder or a beginner ?
19:51:34 <I440r> both are welcome, not everyone in here is a forth coder heh
19:51:44 <futhin> i440r: how the hell could you spend any time "managing" the SF account ?
19:51:55 <futhin> you just code and then upload or whatever
19:51:56 <futhin> or don't upload
19:51:59 <Mongrel> I440r: He's pretty advanced, he's kind of lucky, cause his boss loves it, so he gets to do a fair amount of forth coding at work.
19:52:01 <futhin> it's quite easy ;)
19:52:12 <I440r> mongrel where does he work ?
19:52:17 <I440r> gimme a job!! heh
19:52:27 <Mongrel> I440r: A Web host company in Manhattan
19:53:01 <Mongrel> I440r: I need a job myself, I've just been doing freelance web stuff when I can. But I'm finishing school as well.
19:53:11 <I440r> cool, im in indiana and i want to eventually write a web browser in isforth :)
19:53:49 <Mongrel> I440r: I wonder if thefox is still here, I've been wondering why colorforth.com is on a Unix server
19:54:03 <I440r> why shouldnt it be? heh
19:54:15 <futhin> i was just thinking about forth used as a ASP or web language..   like php/perl
19:54:23 <futhin> that would definitely open up a market for forth
19:54:25 <Mongrel> I440r: I would expect it to be on a forth server.
19:54:59 <I440r> :)
19:55:47 <Mongrel> I440r: I'll definitley try isForth out, I'm stuck having to do a lot of DOS MASM lately, so I won't touch the Source, just so I don't have to make things worse by going back and forth between Nasm/Masm.
19:56:00 <I440r> mongrel: how advanced a coder are you in other languages?
19:56:09 <I440r> i.e. are you an asm cluebie ?
19:56:41 <Mongrel> I440r: Pretty advanced, I'm 28 and I've been coding for about 20yrs. C, C++, php, python, scheme, perl, fortran
19:57:22 <I440r> cool!
19:58:00 <I440r> i dont like c or c++, never done any of the others
19:58:12 <I440r> i got some books on php tho but im not much into web devel
19:58:20 <I440r> as you can see from isforth.clss.net hehe
19:58:28 <Mongrel> I440r: I've only recently been turned on to forth, but I must say it's damned addictive. 
19:58:43 <I440r> mongrel its the only HLL worth using.
19:59:12 <Mongrel> I440r: But I basically have been doing stuff in gforth, which is a nice environment, but it sounds like isForth will really give me the power I want. 
19:59:12 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
19:59:25 <I440r> i code c, assembler on any processor, any controller and forth
19:59:36 <I440r> i hate c more and more every time i hear its name
19:59:59 <futhin> same here
20:00:02 <Mongrel> I440r: I pretty much despise C, but that's because of my C++ preference,
20:00:02 <futhin> i convulse ;)
20:00:35 <I440r> mongrel being an asm coder first and foremost and doing mostly embedded apps im also diametrically opposed to ANYTHING oop
20:00:46 <thefox> back and caught up
20:01:10 <I440r> i see far too much embedded object obfuscated c++ using VRTX or some such rtos type jobs 
20:01:11 <futhin> thefox: any comments on what i said?  
20:01:13 <Mongrel> I440r: OOp is really more a style of coding, it just happens some languages are designed for it.
20:01:23 <futhin> thefox:  please be 100% honest with me,  if you've gotten burned before, i'll understand
20:01:42 <I440r> mongrel i know and i disagree with 99% of what OOP states
20:01:51 <Mongrel> I440r: I'm a big fan of MY C++, but I see it being abused and molested all the time.
20:02:01 <Mongrel> I440r: Fair enough.
20:02:06 <I440r> mongrel the problem is because of c
20:02:17 <I440r> c encourages coder wannabe's to start coding
20:02:36 <I440r> everyone should be forced to code NOTHING but pure assembler for the first 10 years of codeing
20:02:42 <thefox> Chuck could have hosted his site on an itv card if he wanted, but the bandwidth to his house would not have been acceptable. thus it was easier to get a typical isp, write some html, upload it, add some photos, move on.
20:02:46 <Mongrel> I440r: The C problem is that C coders learn a little bit of C++ and think they know it.
20:02:50 <I440r> as an apprenticeship
20:03:34 <I440r> once you have coded asm for 10 years you should be allowed to learn forth
20:03:49 <I440r> only after you have MASTERED assembler and forth should you be allowed to start coding in other languages
20:03:56 <I440r> and that includes things like bash, html etc
20:03:57 <thefox> let them use any language they like, just restrict them to 1k object code.
20:04:04 <Mongrel> I440r: I agree that everyone should eventually spend time coding in Assembler, but when I was 8 years old coding Basic, I don't think I would have kept at it if I had to code Assembler. And back then that was pretty much the two options BASIC or Assembler
20:04:27 <I440r> mongrel it was c64 basic that made me learn 6502 :)
20:05:15 <Mongrel> I440r: But when there's forth, why bother spending too much time with Assembler
20:05:28 <thefox> assembler was comprehensible back then
20:05:50 <Mongrel> I440r: If you want I can write autoconf/automake scripts for isforth, I'm quite handy with the autotools.
20:06:15 <thefox> i prefer assembler and forth at the same time
20:06:22 <I440r> mongrel isforth wont need them, it will eventually be metacompiling its own sources
20:06:23 <Mongrel> thefox: Agreed, x86 Assembler is a nightmare. 
20:06:35 <Mongrel> I440r: For the initial install.
20:07:04 <futhin> 10 years coding in assembler,   machineforth assembler ;)
20:07:05 <Mongrel> I440r: unless you're planning on distributing binaries, autotools help
20:07:06 <thefox> f21 is much simpler than 8080, forget about p7...
20:07:10 <I440r> mongrel check out my snazzy make file, dont need autoconf because isforth relies on ZERO external libraries etc
20:07:37 <I440r> mongrel ill have to distribute teh binary with the sources because the binary is whats going to be used to COMPILE the sources :)
20:07:45 <Mongrel> I440r: Well I guess you're making it pretty much Linux/IA32 specific, so there's no use for portability
20:08:19 <I440r> mongrel portability is bottom of my list of requirements actually, read the readme in the tgz, its very linux/x86 specific
20:08:31 <I440r> i want a bsd (free/net etc) version eventually
20:09:14 <Mongrel> thefox: I've heard great things about the PIC Microcontrollers I think only 32 instructions. Have you used them yet?
20:09:25 <I440r> mongrel but one thing isforth wont support is conditional compilation.
20:09:36 <I440r> i consider THAT to be one of the most abused features of other languages
20:09:43 <Mongrel> I440r: There's no need for it
20:09:53 <I440r> mongrel nope
20:10:37 <I440r> my readme and my sources state alot about my coding philosophy
20:10:49 <Mongrel> I440r: I was telling a buddy about forth the other day, he said "I can't grok RPN, I guess I'll have to write a preprocessor to use it" ... I told him that would be quite frowned upon.
20:11:05 <thefox> no, but I have read the specs and various documents on tools.  Chuck has said relatively good things about pic.
20:11:13 <I440r> just look at the way i format my sources, i see other peoples sources as looking like an overgrown unkept garden
20:12:08 <Mongrel> thefox: I know a guy who's done a lot of work with them, And I've seen there's already a forth written for the PIC, It's something on my todo list.
20:14:35 <I440r> thefox u recon ting would be interested in visiting here ?
20:17:42 <thefox> ting has never wanted to have website and has used yahoo and different employer's isp.  He doesn't seem to be into online stuff very much.
20:18:16 <I440r> the web can be a distraction
20:18:44 <thefox> but he is congenial and would be happy to be interviewed or whatever.  He may not have ever done chat.
20:18:54 <I440r> irc, the great productivity killer
20:19:20 <I440r> ive always admired his code
20:19:23 <Mongrel> irc is nice to use when I'm watching a ball game.
20:21:00 <thefox> he likes to mentor people, he is a good teacher, he always has lots of projects going on.
20:21:54 <I440r> heh me too but i concentrate on one or 2 at a time and when i burn out a switch. that lets my subconcious CHEW on the other problems
20:22:08 <I440r> ive been digesting the assembler problem for a cpl of years so far eheh
20:22:40 <futhin> lazy bum! :P
20:23:06 <I440r> i think i got one problem with the assembler sorted :)
20:23:13 <futhin> i solved it for you
20:23:20 <futhin> opcode dest src ,
20:23:21 <I440r> how to defer assembly till the start of the next instruction :)
20:23:35 <I440r> futhin no you didnt, i solved it mentally 3 days ago and coded it today
20:23:51 <I440r> 0 var ?a;
20:23:54 <I440r> : a;
20:24:03 <I440r> ?a; r> !> ?a;
20:24:07 <I440r>  duop ?:
20:24:11 <I440r>   >r
20:24:13 <I440r>  drop ;
20:24:23 <I440r> thats a dup not a duop heh
20:24:49 <I440r> ?a; is initially zero so for the first instruction we just drop it
20:25:01 <I440r> each instruction word starts with a a;
20:25:21 <I440r> so each instruction nests into a; which does NOT return till the start of the next instruction
20:25:28 <I440r> :)
20:25:30 <I440r> neat eh ?
20:25:52 <I440r> a more readable but less optimum version of teh above would be
20:26:15 <I440r> : a; ?a; @ r> ?a; ! dup if >r else drop then ;
20:26:57 <I440r> and yes, it works hehe
20:30:36 <I440r> end-code does a a; so the last instruction is assembled
20:32:34 <I440r> hmmm that made everyone go all quiet hehe
20:33:52 <futhin> i440r: were you paying attention when i talked to speuler about the syntax for the assembler ?
20:34:23 <I440r> not realy
20:34:25 <futhin> i was saying that it could be like this:  MOV AX BX ,  where the "," consolidates the stuff on the stack so that you don't have to do any parsing
20:34:43 <I440r> i dont have to do any parsing
20:34:51 <I440r> mov ax, # 5
20:34:57 <I440r> mov doesnt execute yet
20:35:07 <I440r> ax, sets ax as the destination register
20:35:15 <futhin> what's with "# 5" ?
20:35:17 <I440r> # sets a flag saying thers an immediate
20:35:25 <futhin> hrm
20:35:26 <I440r> the 5 (the immediate goes on the stack)
20:35:46 <I440r> the start of the next instrucution (say mov bx, ax or something) causes the above to be assembled
20:36:02 <I440r> no parsing words
20:36:20 <I440r> reg, is always a destination registe
20:36:26 <I440r> reg  is always a source register
20:36:31 <I440r>  mov eax, ebx
20:36:50 <futhin> k, that works
20:38:25 <I440r> it all came together when i figured out how to do a;
20:39:23 <I440r> also, if i defer a; i can patch it as a noop and ppl can do 5 # ax mov if they want :)
20:40:12 <I440r> im still a little fuzzy about how to do [eax+ebx+8*ecx]
20:40:47 <I440r> i think it would be [eax] $+ [ebx] 4 $+* [ecx]
20:40:49 <I440r> or something
20:41:20 <I440r> or i might have $+*2 $+*4 $+*8
20:41:25 <I440r> for different scalers
20:41:43 --- join: njd (melons@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
20:41:48 <I440r> but this gives me a problem, you can do
20:42:02 <I440r> mov eax, [ebx+ecx+8*edx] or 
20:42:12 <I440r> mov [ebx+ecx+8*edx], eax
20:42:31 <I440r> do i create [ebx], etc ?
20:43:43 <I440r> mov [eax], $+ [ebx], $+8* [ecx], 
20:43:53 <I440r> then i also need to figure out $+ $1234
20:44:09 <I440r> mov table+[eax+ebx+8*ecx], eax
20:44:16 <I440r> etc etc - it gets a bit complex heh
20:46:40 <njd> for real
20:48:14 <thefox> see yall later
20:48:25 --- quit: thefox ()
21:08:23 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth
21:08:31 <CrowKiller> hi
21:22:01 --- quit: CrowKiller ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
21:38:08 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth
22:01:42 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust228.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
22:01:48 <kc5tja> re I440r
22:02:05 <I440r_> tnx
22:02:24 <I440r_> should realy be working on my assembler hehe
22:02:42 <I440r_> will prolly take all the dox and teh laptop up to bed with me when i go and work on it there
22:02:53 <I440r_> but i got the first stumbling block sorted out 
22:02:59 <I440r_> :)
22:03:03 <kc5tja> Cool.
22:03:15 <I440r_> im not sure if anyone else has done it in quite this way
22:03:15 * kc5tja has his assembler finished; I just need to actually start coding FS/Forth's core now.  :)
22:03:36 <I440r_> kc5 that assembler isnt YOURS tho is it, so i cant see it rite ?
22:04:00 <kc5tja> No, it's mine.
22:04:04 <kc5tja> It's RPN, but it's all mine.
22:04:20 <I440r_> i mean. you OWN it ?
22:04:21 <kc5tja> Took me 5 days to write it, basically in my spare time at work.
22:04:25 <I440r_> can i see it?
22:04:25 <kc5tja> Hell yes I own it.
22:04:33 <kc5tja> Can you read PygmyForth block files?
22:04:44 <I440r_> i can convert block files to flat
22:04:59 <kc5tja> OK, hold on.  I'll transfer the .SCR file to my computer.
22:05:06 <I440r_> cool
22:05:16 <I440r_> what does it support ?
22:05:31 <I440r_> 386? 486? p4 ?
22:05:37 <I440r_> mmx/sse ??? heh
22:06:04 <kc5tja> 16-bit 8086 with some 386 extensions.  Not all of them, just those that happened to be convenient to add.
22:06:15 <kc5tja> It's easy to add MMX or other stuff if you need it.
22:06:26 <I440r_> i know
22:06:31 <I440r_> fpu instructionsz are easy too
22:06:51 <I440r_> right now i can only assemble FOUR instructions hehe
22:07:00 <I440r_> two of which take an 8 bit immediate
22:07:00 <kc5tja> :)
22:07:02 <I440r_> or not
22:09:10 * kc5tja is trying to initiate a DCC; can you respond to it?
22:09:31 <kc5tja> If not, I'll cancel it and send it to you via e-mail.
22:09:45 <kc5tja> It's built for Pygmy Forth, but it should be readily portable to any other Forth system.
22:10:09 <I440r_> mark.manning -at- fastermail -dot- com
22:10:16 <I440r_> i cant see any dcc
22:10:40 <I440r_> argh i just wrote my email in the clear where any bot surfing clog logs will be able to grab it lol
22:10:47 <kc5tja> OK, the firewall is blocking it then (even though it's configured to support IRC; go figure)
22:11:00 <kc5tja> Have it removed from the logs.
22:11:13 <kc5tja> I'm sure clog's maintainer will substitute a bunch of Xs for it or something.
22:11:16 <I440r_> i would but im too lazy and its minimal risk ehhe
22:12:11 <kc5tja> OK, it *should* be on its way.
22:12:14 <I440r_> k
22:12:27 <kc5tja> If not, let me know; I have a backup method I can use to send the e-mail.  :)
22:12:42 <I440r_> hehe checking mail now
22:12:45 <I440r_> gotta log in 
22:14:19 <I440r_> success
22:14:21 <I440r_> its there :)
22:14:24 <kc5tja> Cool.
22:14:31 <kc5tja> Should be roughly 40KB in size.
22:14:51 --- quit: I440r (No route to host)
22:15:10 <I440r_> ok, having never written a meta compiler im slightly confused why , c, etc need to be defered in the assembler to the forth versions
22:15:33 <kc5tja> , c, etc aren't deferred.
22:15:40 <kc5tja> u8, and u16, are deferred (and $$)
22:15:48 <kc5tja> The answer is simply factoring.
22:16:16 <kc5tja> u8, stores an 8-bit quantity to memory, guaranteed.  u16, stores a 16-bit quantity to memory, guaranteed.  When I define it, u32, will store a 32-bit quantity, etc.
22:16:28 <kc5tja> They're deferred because I have multiple code emitting back-ends.
22:17:01 <kc5tja> One compiles code directly into the FS/Forth target buffer (using TC, and T,), while another one was built for the regression tester, which compiles the values in a form suitable for the target compiler.
22:17:09 <kc5tja> err, regression testing subsystem.
22:17:14 <kc5tja> You do not have the regression testing code.
22:17:19 <I440r_> hehe
22:17:24 <I440r_> thank you :)
22:20:15 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:20:23 <kc5tja> :)
22:23:20 <I440r_> i started with those prefixes too but i deleted the code, i had to sort out some other things first
22:23:31 <I440r_> basically had similar to what you have tho yours looks neater
22:23:38 <I440r_> i hadnt fully thunked it out 
22:23:50 <kc5tja> I was really surprised at how well it turned out, actually.  I honestly wasn't expecting it to fall into place like that.
22:24:03 <kc5tja> I did have to completely rip out and re-engineer how to handle the modr/m bytes though.
22:24:11 <kc5tja> That took me a day and a half to do.  
22:24:37 <kc5tja> I realized what I had wasn't good enough by the time I hit the mov, instruction.  :-)
22:25:18 <I440r_> i deleted what i had, i figured i was preempting myself by coding it hehe
22:25:21 <kc5tja> Note that because I cache the opcode components in memory before actually emitting them (i, is what actually triggers the whole instruction to be emitted), you could write a small layer on top of the assembler mid-section to use prefix notation.
22:26:29 <I440r_> u wanna see my thus far 4 instruction assembler ?
22:27:09 <kc5tja> Sure.  :)
22:27:23 <I440r_> IT could be prefix or postfix too
22:27:30 <I440r_> by NOOPing a; :)
22:30:41 <kc5tja> Heh
22:31:34 <I440r_> its kinda tricky and obfuscated what a; does hehe
22:31:42 <I440r_> but its REALY clever - even if i do say so myself heh
22:31:48 <I440r_> u shud chek mail now
22:31:54 <kc5tja> Where'd you send it to?
22:32:01 <I440r_> replied
22:32:05 <I440r_> to your email ehh
22:32:14 <I440r_> i didnt quote your assembler back to you :)
22:32:34 <kc5tja> I don't think the mail will reach me.  If it's at anything with "dolphin" in the name, it's a certainty that it'll bounce.
22:32:40 <kc5tja> Re-send it to sfalvo@hifn.com
22:34:54 <I440r_> done
22:37:42 <kc5tja> OK, checking.
22:40:12 <kc5tja> Got it.  
22:40:18 * kc5tja is reviewing the code now...
22:40:44 <I440r_> actually, so far your assembler is one of the easiest to read ive seen
22:41:01 <kc5tja> OK, based on what I'm seeing, you're fiddling around with return addresses.
22:41:06 <I440r_> i gave up on win324th assembler, thats a HUGE mess
22:41:11 <I440r_> i am :)
22:41:22 <I440r_> when you have
22:41:24 <I440r_>  ...
22:41:27 <I440r_>    mov .....
22:41:35 <I440r_> the word mov first calls a;
22:41:47 <kc5tja> Right.
22:41:53 <I440r_> that fetches a;? variable and stores its own return address in same
22:42:06 <I440r_> it returns to the PREVIOUS instruction
22:42:15 <I440r_> so if i have
22:42:21 <I440r_>  mov ax, # 5
22:42:27 <I440r_> mov doesnt execute yet
22:42:37 <I440r_> ax, will set up a flag saying that ax is the destination reg
22:42:45 <kc5tja> I see, but the code for ax, and the immediate value are on the stack, waiting to be run.
22:42:47 <I440r_> # says that theres an immediate and the 5 will be left on the stack
22:42:47 <kc5tja> OK, that makes sense.
22:42:53 <I440r_> nope
22:43:10 <kc5tja> s/code/data/
22:43:17 <kc5tja> Code and data are virtually identical in Forth
22:43:18 <I440r_> we return OUT of mov after having assembled the previous instruction
22:43:25 <I440r_> ax, gets executed 
22:43:27 <I440r_> setting a flag
22:43:34 <I440r_> # gets executed setting a flag
22:43:37 <kc5tja> (thought I just said that???)
22:43:37 <I440r_> 5 goes on the stack
22:43:55 <I440r_> im not sure were on the same page tho
22:43:59 <I440r_> heres the sequence of events
22:44:20 <I440r_> we enter mov. but it doesnt execute the code for mov, it returns (assume first instruction of coded def)
22:44:35 <I440r_> ax, executes. # executes, 5 goes on the stack
22:44:46 <I440r_> we now have all the info we need to actually assemble the instruction
22:45:03 <I440r_> the NEXT instruction calls a; and that RETURNS into the mov we skipped
22:45:05 <kc5tja> Right.
22:45:25 <I440r_> so if you get rid of a; (make it defered and defer it to noop)
22:45:36 <I440r_> you can make the assembler work with 5 # ax, mov
22:45:54 <kc5tja> Well, you'd need to redefine mov to account for the reversal in the stack.
22:46:18 <I440r_> a; can do that then 
22:46:23 <kc5tja> Or, you could just plain have it be ax, # 5 mov or something.
22:46:28 <I440r_> : pre-a; swap ;
22:46:40 <I440r_> : post-a; the tricky stuff above ;
22:46:42 <I440r_> defer a;
22:47:04 <I440r_> actually, ax doesnt put anythning on the stack
22:47:29 <I440r_> it will just set a variable saying that ax is the destination registe
22:47:34 <I440r_> so we cah do things like
22:47:38 <I440r_> mov ax, bx
22:47:45 <I440r_> no comma on the bx says its a source
22:47:52 <I440r_> the , on the ax says its a destination
22:47:58 * kc5tja nods
22:48:24 <I440r_> tho
22:48:27 <kc5tja> That's an interesting observation.
22:48:28 <I440r_> we could have things like
22:48:31 * kc5tja never thought of that.
22:48:52 <I440r_> mov [1234+ebx+8*ecx], # 5
22:49:08 <I440r_> so we WILL have two items on the stack in the forth version of the above
22:49:11 <kc5tja> How do you specify the 1234 in the first operand?  :)
22:49:13 <I440r_> the 1234 and teh 5
22:49:22 <I440r_> im thinking ill do 
22:49:59 <I440r_> mov $ 1234 $+ [ebx], $+8* [$ecx], # 5
22:50:07 <I440r_> or something
22:50:10 <I440r_> looks messy tho
22:50:13 <kc5tja> Yeah.
22:50:19 <kc5tja> I would think something like this might work:
22:50:39 <kc5tja> mov $1234 [ebx+ecx*8], # 5
22:50:57 <kc5tja> where [ebx+ecx*8], is a word that assumes it has an offset specified on the stack.
22:51:14 <I440r_> i would need to have [reg+reg+scale*reg] definitions for every single possability or else i will need to parse
22:51:19 <I440r_> im avoiding parsing that sort of thing
22:51:26 <kc5tja> Don't.
22:51:38 <I440r_> dont parse or dont avoid heh
22:51:40 <kc5tja> Use CREATE and DOES> to do all the grunt work, then just define them manually.
22:51:50 <kc5tja> That's what CREATE/DOES> were made for.
22:51:57 <I440r_> there would be HUNDREDS of them
22:52:10 <I440r_> [eax+ebx+2/4/8*ecx]
22:52:23 <kc5tja> Hmm..
22:52:26 <I440r_> [ebx+ecx+2/4/8*ecx]
22:52:27 <I440r_> dont forget
22:52:38 <I440r_>  mov eax, [eax+eax+8*eax] is legal
22:52:39 <kc5tja> [eax+ ebx+ ecx*8] -- how's that?
22:52:55 <I440r_> err [ eax+
22:53:02 <I440r_> dont mind redefining [ and ]
22:53:14 <kc5tja> OK, as long as you don't mind redefining [ and ], that's fine.
22:53:32 <I440r_> i already redefined # hehe
22:53:39 <kc5tja> Also, I'd split the multiplier out.
22:53:46 <kc5tja> [ eax+ ebx+ ecx *8 ]
22:54:02 <kc5tja> This gives you a total of (3*8)+4 = 28 words to define.
22:54:35 <I440r_> would need reg+ and reg defined for all words, 2* 4* and 8* would need to be redefined
22:54:51 <kc5tja> No, *2 *4 and *8
22:54:55 <I440r_> not sure thats a good idea, might do $2* $4* or [2*] [4*] ?
22:55:04 <I440r_> aha good idea!!
22:55:09 <kc5tja> :)
22:55:12 <I440r_> lol
22:55:16 <I440r_> glad i thunked of that :)
22:55:23 <kc5tja> Glad I could help.
22:55:24 <kc5tja> Whoa...
22:55:31 <I440r_> :)
22:55:38 <kc5tja> My monitor started to jiggle on my desk.  I think we're getting a small earthquake...
22:55:47 <I440r_> cool!!!!
22:55:51 <I440r_> where u at again?
22:55:58 <I440r_> we had a quake not long ag0 :)
22:56:16 <I440r_> pick up ur laptop - so the drive doesnt get damaged :)
22:56:48 <kc5tja> Drive won't get damaged.
22:56:51 <kc5tja> It's parked.
22:56:54 <I440r_> :)
22:57:00 <kc5tja> I'm in Oceanside, California.
22:57:09 <kc5tja> Just an hour north of the Mexican border.
22:57:22 <I440r_> hmmm earthquake country to the north for sure :)
22:57:31 <kc5tja> Yeah.
22:57:37 <kc5tja> But we occasionally get small ones.
22:57:45 <kc5tja> I mean, if you're sleeping, you won't even notice them.
22:57:47 <I440r_> i never did like the peoples republic of california tho
22:57:57 <kc5tja> Unless you're like me, who is hypersensitive to motion while sleeping.
22:58:03 <I440r_> ive been thru loads of quakes and not known about them
22:58:10 * kc5tja nods
22:58:23 <I440r_> im hyper sensative to absolutly NOTHING when im assleep hehe
22:58:32 <I440r_> i would sleep thru ww3 :)
22:58:34 <kc5tja> Most of our quakes here are utterly imperceptible, unless you're *really* trying to listen for them.
22:58:43 <kc5tja> And i do mean listen -- that's the only way to detect them.
22:58:54 <I440r_> ear to ground
22:58:56 <kc5tja> Yes
22:59:08 <kc5tja> An earthquake sounds a lot like a passing train.
22:59:24 <I440r_> u know its a quake tho if the nearest line is 200 miles away hehe
22:59:25 <kc5tja> Only with slightly more bass components.
22:59:57 <kc5tja> Well, where I live is somewhat confusing sometimes, because I live near Camp Pendelton, a Marine base, where they just love to detonate ordinance.  :)
23:00:11 <I440r_> Godis5: so what are you doing up so late?
23:00:11 <I440r_> i440r: chatting with other coders :-)
23:00:11 <I440r_> Godis5: ah the weird people :-)
23:00:11 <I440r_> i440r: again, pot, kettle, black :-)
23:00:30 <kc5tja> FORTH? IF HONK THEN
23:00:53 <futhin> i440r_:  i doubt any bots come across clog's logs..  there's robots.txt on the tunes server.. basically says don't surf the server..  only rogue bots will do so
23:00:57 <I440r_> ive known godis on undernet since she was like 13 yrs old, she is 21/22 now :)
23:01:05 <I440r_> snotty nosed kid to kewtie hehe
23:01:32 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
23:01:49 <kc5tja> I hope to start coding FS/Forth this weekend.  I really want to complete it.
23:01:51 <I440r_> she is a rely nice girl too
23:02:00 <I440r_> cool
23:02:06 <I440r_> i want to complete this assembler
23:02:18 <I440r_> even before i started coding isforth i was dreading teh assembler heh
23:02:25 <kc5tja> It's gotten to the point where I am --><-- that close to replacing Linux on my router computer with FS/Forth, configured to serve as the router.
23:02:37 <I440r_> cool!
23:02:44 <I440r_> let me know when you do it!
23:03:01 <I440r_> i notice you dont do evil things like
23:03:03 <I440r_>  create foo
23:03:09 <I440r_> ] xyz abc blah [
23:03:12 <I440r_> heh
23:03:13 <kc5tja> I tried setting up a Wiki on my router/server, and it just blew up.  The Zope maintainer didn't have a clue how to take a toke from the crack pipe he was using at the time he made the package.
23:03:26 <kc5tja> No, I don't.
23:03:36 <kc5tja> However, when FS/Forth is written I will do stuff like this:
23:03:48 <I440r_> i have been known to but i think its visually cluttered style, something i try to avoid
23:04:05 <kc5tja> : BYE?   .BYEPROMPT KEY 'Y = IF [ $4C00 #: ax, mov, $21 #: int, ] THEN ;
23:04:12 <kc5tja> I can do this because it's native code.  :)
23:04:18 <I440r_> :)
23:04:38 <I440r_> actually, THAT looks neat :)
23:04:59 <I440r_> oh you use #: instead of redefining # :)
23:05:02 <kc5tja> :)
23:05:07 <kc5tja> Yeah; # is reserved for something else.
23:05:12 <I440r_> do you use #) for addresses ?
23:05:18 <kc5tja> <# # # ... # #> typically.
23:05:25 <kc5tja> No; I use [] for addresses.
23:05:35 <I440r_> much nicer
23:05:38 <kc5tja> $DEAD [] al mov,
23:05:47 <I440r_> im thinking of just using $
23:05:51 <I440r_> or maybe $$
23:05:56 <kc5tja> Yeah.  What is up with these people that decided to use ) for addresses?  That doesn't make any sense.  :)
23:06:13 <kc5tja> To me, ) is what you use to close a comment.  :)
23:06:20 <I440r_> correct
23:06:36 <I440r_> i however reserve ( ) comments for stack comments
23:06:41 <kc5tja> Now if they'd used something like (), that's different; that at least provides a sense of closure like [] does.
23:06:55 <I440r_> none of the ( this code blah blah ) 
23:07:11 <I440r_> i consider that style of commenting to be visually cluttered too
23:07:13 <kc5tja> I'm probably not going to support \ comments to start off with.  Not sure yet though.
23:07:22 <I440r_>  code-stuff-here    \ comment stuff here
23:07:31 <I440r_> no need to CLOSE the comment, its closed by eol
23:07:40 <kc5tja> Blocks don't have an EOL.  :)
23:07:47 <I440r_> nope
23:07:54 <I440r_> well. they DO and they dont :)
23:08:00 <kc5tja> I suppose I could just redefine \ to advance the >IN pointer (well, my Forth's equivalent at least) to the next logical line, but still.
23:09:19 <I440r_> yup
23:09:32 <I440r_> you have to know how far into the current line you are
23:09:45 <I440r_> so just add linelenght - current pos to current pos heh
23:10:43 * kc5tja nods
23:10:59 <kc5tja> I also like the use -- for comments too, especially when they're left flushed.
23:11:04 <kc5tja> -- this makes a good section heading --
23:11:04 <kc5tja> :)
23:11:30 <I440r_> i never saw that before until i started looking at marcel h's code
23:11:34 <kc5tja> Basically: : -- POSTPONE \ ; IMMEDIATE
23:11:44 <I440r_> ugh heh
23:12:02 <kc5tja> I was introduced to that commenting style while studying some Eiffel sources; I didn't know Marcel used those comments.
23:12:05 <I440r_> ' \ alias --
23:12:06 <I440r_> hehe
23:12:10 <I440r_> much neater
23:12:17 <I440r_> and because \ is immediate so is --
23:12:20 <I440r_> on my forth at least
23:12:21 <kc5tja> That'll work too.  But my Forth doesn't have aliases.  Instead, I do this:
23:12:38 <I440r_> i toyed with teh idea of not having aliases in isforth too
23:12:41 <kc5tja> COMPILER : -- COMPILE \ ;
23:12:46 <I440r_> i consider them to be bad form if over abused
23:12:54 <kc5tja> COMPILER switches into the compiler's word list, BTW.
23:13:13 <I440r_> aha 
23:13:14 <kc5tja> err
23:13:16 <kc5tja> whoops 
23:13:19 <kc5tja> Should be [COMPILE]
23:13:22 <I440r_> ya i know
23:13:27 <I440r_> and you forgot the immediate too heh
23:13:28 <kc5tja> It's late.  :)
23:13:33 <kc5tja> I don't need IMMEDIATE.
23:13:34 <I440r_> i can read perfect mistype
23:13:38 <I440r_> no ?
23:13:39 <I440r_> oh
23:13:39 <kc5tja> It's in the COMPILER wordset; that's all it needs.
23:13:44 <I440r_> compiler is always immediate :)
23:13:47 <kc5tja> Yes.
23:13:52 <kc5tja> FORTH is always non-immediate.  :)
23:14:19 <kc5tja> Any other wordlists are ignored from the "normal" Forth standpoint, and are reserved for application-defined searching.
23:14:26 <I440r_> my compiler vocabulary is EVENTUALLY going to be discarded on turnkey
23:14:32 <I440r_> so all creating words would go in there
23:14:33 <kc5tja> For example, VIBE's going to use its own wordlist for containing editor commands.
23:14:57 <I440r_> vibe ?
23:15:03 <kc5tja> VI-like Block Editor.
23:15:07 <I440r_> ugh
23:15:09 <I440r_> your sic :P
23:15:17 <kc5tja> I wrote it first for GForth, ported it to Pygmy, and soon, to FS/Forth.  :)
23:15:23 <I440r_> heh
23:15:26 <kc5tja> Why am I sick?
23:15:33 <I440r_> of all the editors i hate, vi is the one i hate most
23:15:40 <kc5tja> Your loss.
23:15:48 <kc5tja> There's a good reason why I chose VI.
23:16:00 <I440r_> i think ANY operation in an editor should be done via control or alt plus one key
23:16:02 <kc5tja> All of the most often used commands I use are all on the home row of the keyboard.
23:16:15 <kc5tja> My editor isn't mutually exclusive with that.
23:16:15 <I440r_> not escape colon shift/contro/alt key etc
23:16:25 <kc5tja> Your view of VI is unnecessarily narrow.
23:16:38 <I440r_> alt x control y 
23:16:41 <I440r_> or function keys
23:16:46 <kc5tja> That is a problem I have with you: you are so strongly opinionated about things, that you're more often incorrect about the topics you hate than you are right.  :)
23:16:59 <I440r_> no alt shift x backspace insert f10 f4 now your in insert mode heh
23:17:04 <I440r_> i know
23:17:14 <kc5tja> Yes, ALT-X-CTRL-Y -- Sorry, I don't like giving vulcan nerve pinches to the computer just to delete a line.
23:17:19 <I440r_> but i dont FORCE my opinions on other ppl
23:17:27 <kc5tja> Neither do I.
23:17:33 <kc5tja> ESC enters command mode.
23:17:34 <kc5tja> Just ESC.
23:17:36 <I440r_> most of my opinons are well thought out not irrational
23:17:41 <kc5tja> i enters insert mode.
23:17:42 <kc5tja> Just i.
23:17:52 <kc5tja> Most of your opinions are irrational.
23:18:04 <futhin> i440r_:  is godis5 into programming?
23:18:11 <I440r_> no
23:18:14 <kc5tja> If you want to see some *REALLY* bizarre key sequences, check out Emacs.
23:18:33 <I440r_> kc5 most of them are a direct result of observations
23:18:39 <futhin> <-- is slow on reading the backlog
23:18:44 <I440r_> kct i checked it out on the amiga
23:18:50 <I440r_> saw teh 2934875623978465 different menu items
23:18:54 <kc5tja> "no alt shift x backspace insert f10 f4 now your in insert mode heh" -- that's rational??
23:18:55 <I440r_> each with 239685237849652384975 different sub menus heh
23:19:00 <kc5tja> That tells me you've **NEVER** used VI in your life.
23:19:12 <I440r_> kc5 i have
23:19:14 <I440r_> ive had to 
23:19:20 <kc5tja> Oh, here we go again with flagrant misaccusations.
23:19:30 <kc5tja> I've also used *MICRO*-emacs on Amiga.
23:19:36 <kc5tja> MICRO...not the full Emacs.  MICRO.
23:19:39 <I440r_> hehe
23:19:41 <I440r_> ya
23:19:51 <I440r_>  i know. and its STILl bloated heh
23:19:51 <kc5tja> So don't tell me about which editor is best and which isn't.
23:19:56 <kc5tja> No it isn't.
23:20:00 <kc5tja> The editor was 20K in size.
23:20:02 <I440r_> i like multi edit for dos
23:20:07 <I440r_> not the latest versions
23:20:14 <I440r_> version 3.02 is what i use
23:20:18 <kc5tja> Multi-edit is just as bloated as MicroEmacs.
23:20:31 <kc5tja> Yet more evidence of your blind accusations.
23:20:32 <I440r_> not realy, i stripped out all teh shit i didnt want
23:20:48 <I440r_> when you register it you get the complete sources to the editor (sort of)
23:21:07 <I440r_> you can totally redefine it thru its macro language
23:21:12 <kc5tja> Well, VIBE is only 2K on my laptop, and does everything I need it to do.
23:21:21 <kc5tja> I hardly consider it bloated.
23:21:42 <I440r_> i would convert the escape to a control personally but that wouldnt be VI like.
23:21:59 <kc5tja> Like I said: VIBE handles ctrl-codes just as well as modal controls.
23:22:11 <kc5tja> You just need to edit the editor's command configuration.
23:22:19 <kc5tja> Each command is just a well-formed : word.
23:22:23 <I440r_> i would be happy with it then (depending on one other thing)
23:22:27 <kc5tja> You don't even need to hack the main program.
23:22:28 <I440r_> how does it handle cursor movement
23:22:39 <kc5tja> Same way as any other command.
23:22:54 <I440r_> if i cursor up onto a shorter line does the cursor position go schitzoid on you ?
23:23:01 <kc5tja> Right now, it's configured for VI operation because cursor keys and whatnot are not portable across machines, while ASCII is.
23:23:04 <I440r_> or does it stay in the SAME column ?
23:23:24 <kc5tja> But if your Forth environment associates a single keycode with each cursor key, then you can easily redefine it to use cursor keys.
23:23:37 <kc5tja> No, the cursor stays in the same column.
23:23:59 <I440r_> and if it stays in teh same column and i start editing, does the cursor THEN bounce back to the left or do you start inserting at teh same column ?
23:24:07 <kc5tja> Same column.
23:24:10 <I440r_> !!!!!!
23:24:14 <I440r_> i could use that editor
23:24:15 <kc5tja> An empty block is just a block full of spaces.
23:24:20 <I440r_> oh yea
23:24:33 <I440r_> hrm thats one of my biggest gripes with *nix editors
23:24:38 <I440r_> schitzoid cursor
23:24:53 <kc5tja> I can live with it as long as its behavior is predictable.
23:24:55 <I440r_> joe is slightly less schitzoid but its still not right
23:25:08 <I440r_> thats the point, its not predictable
23:25:17 <kc5tja> But it is.
23:25:27 <kc5tja> But I won't get into it.  I'm too tired and too easily set off.
23:25:34 <I440r_> if you cursor up onto a line thats shorter by 43 characters you cant mentally follow the cursor BEVORE it moves
23:25:54 <kc5tja> Hmm....I can.
23:25:59 <kc5tja> I have no problems with it.
23:26:07 <I440r_> i cant, it bugs me :)
23:26:25 <I440r_> i also like an edtor to remove blanks at the end of a line automatically
23:26:33 <futhin> kc5tja:  the command mode and insert mode seem a little unnecessary to me, but i will have to look into it,  i find it a tad cumbersome to hit i to get into insert and hit esc to get out, but i'm still in the process of getting used to it
23:26:38 <I440r_> but to also automatically re-insert them if i start typing beyond the end of a line :)
23:26:51 <kc5tja> futhin: There's a reason for command-mode and insert-mode.
23:26:57 <futhin> yes
23:27:04 <kc5tja> futhin: It's so you don't have to take your fingers off the home-row when entering editor commands.
23:27:25 <kc5tja> futhin: As a typist who goes 90+wpm, especially when editing source code, that is a huge benefit to me.
23:27:35 <futhin> i sort of dislike hitting the esc key, but it is pretty easy to hit it and come back to the home row without looking
23:27:37 <kc5tja> Also, nearly every command I use is a single letter on the keyboard.
23:27:59 <kc5tja> futhin: Check out what Jef Raskin is doing with his editor project on SourceForge.
23:28:00 <futhin> personally i would prefer the hit key to be near the home row, like the TAB or something ;)
23:28:10 <futhin> s/hit/esc
23:28:22 <kc5tja> He has a command set somewhat similar to VI, but he uses a meta-key to enter it, and it doesn't execute until you release the metakey.
23:28:43 <kc5tja> Well, CAPS LOCK would be ideal for entering/exiting from command-mode.
23:29:40 <kc5tja> Oh well, I suppose I should be getting to bed.
23:29:44 <kc5tja> I have work to attend to tomorrow.
23:30:15 <futhin> meta wouldn't be bad
23:30:22 <futhin> for the ESC key replacement
23:30:22 <kc5tja> I really do want to get this Forth running though.  I think I'm really at the end of my fuse when it comes to dealing with this other software.  I would just LOVE to put it on the box I have at work too.  :)
23:32:15 --- quit: njd ("fractal 1.0.9b60 - The world is coming to an end. Please log-off. - http://fractalscript.com")
23:33:26 <futhin> hmm, i'm reading "forth's dilemma" right now
23:33:29 <futhin> very interesting
23:33:33 <futhin> have you read it?
23:33:42 <futhin> has anybody?
23:33:51 <I440r_> i bookmark3ed it
23:33:54 <futhin> heh
23:33:57 <futhin> read it right now!!
23:34:03 <futhin> so we can discuss it
23:35:28 <kc5tja> I never heard of it before.
23:36:49 <futhin> http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm
23:36:54 <futhin> read it if you aren't going to bed :P
23:37:05 <futhin> it's very interesting!!
23:37:43 <kc5tja> How long is it?
23:37:58 <futhin> um, 4 pages
23:38:00 <kc5tja> HTTP Error 404 -- not very big.
23:38:01 <futhin> or 5
23:38:08 <futhin> http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm
23:38:09 <futhin> hm?
23:38:10 <futhin> works for me
23:38:19 <kc5tja> Cut&Paste didn't copy the '
23:38:47 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
23:38:56 <futhin> hello soap`!
23:39:05 <futhin> read this! 
23:39:06 <futhin> http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm
23:39:18 <futhin> very interesting! :)
23:39:42 * futhin is going to rush out and get the book sometime this week
23:39:49 <futhin> innovator's dilemma
23:42:26 <futhin> i440r_: are you reading it?  my guess is ya aren't :P
23:43:00 <kc5tja> This is quite fascinating.
23:43:13 <kc5tja> So far, the author is dead on the money.  I'm about 33% through it.
23:43:58 <futhin> yup :)
23:44:02 <futhin> i'm 89% thru it
23:45:39 <I440r_> not yet, im too tired to rtfm even interesting stuff
23:45:54 <I440r_> if i wasnt this tired i would be offline anyway - got code to write now :)
23:46:41 <futhin> this article will wake you up unless you're dead ;P
23:47:04 <futhin> read it soon tho, it's pretty interesting :)
23:52:43 <I440r_> $00c2 reg8: dl
23:52:51 <I440r_> $00c2 reg16: dx
23:52:52 <I440r_> ?
23:53:50 <kc5tja> reg8: defines an 8-bit register, and reg16: defines a 16-bit register.
23:53:58 <kc5tja> See the definitions for reg8: and reg16: for their differences.
23:54:17 <I440r_> aha ok ya :)
23:54:33 <kc5tja> The value it pushes onto the stack is the modr/m code for that register.
23:54:37 <kc5tja> Anyway, I need to get to bed.
23:54:40 <kc5tja> Interesting article.
23:54:45 <kc5tja> But nothing I didn't already know.
23:54:56 <kc5tja> And I *severely* disagree with his assessment that Forth is "dying."
23:55:13 <kc5tja> People can laugh and make fun of us all they want.
23:55:19 <kc5tja> Indeed, that is our advantage.
23:55:27 <kc5tja> Our secret weapon.
23:55:35 <I440r_> not realy our advantage but definatly their loss
23:55:57 <kc5tja> I440r_: By the very sheer definition of what you just said, it is our advantage.
23:56:07 <kc5tja> If they don't have "it", but we do, then it's our advantage.
23:56:30 <kc5tja> When we release products in 1/10th the time, with near zero bugs, consistently, people will start to notice.
23:56:40 <kc5tja> We don't need to tell them that we code in Forth.
23:56:51 <kc5tja> That'd be disclosing highly "proprietary" information.
23:57:02 <kc5tja> But, I digress.
23:57:07 <kc5tja> I'm going to bed now.
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23:58:30 <I440r_> you forgot ret in op2
23:58:39 <I440r_> or is the parameter to ret 16 bits ?
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.07