00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.01 00:00:22 I verified his results with that of the spreadsheet's author (which in turn came from a paper from the 1960s on disc pumps), and the equation he cites checks out. 00:03:08 If the designer was building a hydro turbine, 20 degrees C, spacing would be 00:03:09 0.18mm for a turbine running at 3000RPM 00:03:21 that's incredibly tiny 00:03:47 Yes, exactly why I'm not thinking water. :) 00:04:07 It's a shame though, because this type of turbine would excel with water, since no cavitation occurs. 00:04:54 he doesn't explain how much efficiency drops by improper spacing 00:05:07 worst case might only be 5% 00:05:41 I don't know. I don't have anywhere near the equipment I'd need to measure that sort of thing. 00:10:14 What do you think of a compressed air powered automobile? 00:10:27 * kc5tja was reading up on that MDI Air Car, and that's a fascinating piece of machinery there. 00:10:28 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection timed out) 00:10:39 I think a turbine would be perfect for that application, to be sure. :) 00:10:58 the problems with most power sources is the horsepower-hours per pound of fuel 00:11:27 gasoline and diesel are EXTREMELY dense fuels ... hard to match or exceed 00:12:12 compressed air is similar to hydrogen in that regard, the pressures are *SO* high that the tank would have to be quite hefty 00:12:20 Sure, but until we can create synthetic variants of these, we're going to be forever at the mercy of OPEC. 00:12:35 I understand 00:13:12 erm ... let's say that compressed air does not have the qualities needed to displace petroleum fuels from the marketplace 00:13:48 Pure power, no. 00:13:52 BUT... 00:14:04 *perceived* power can be made to be right up there though. 00:14:13 oh, hell yeah 00:14:30 Although the Air Car has a meager 25HP engine in it (a 50HP is being developed), it's also actually lighter than my RX-7. :) 00:14:34 err, the car is. 00:14:40 I used to have a compressed-air rocket ... sure you can make the car take off 00:14:42 So it's perceived power is quite good. 00:15:09 ok, how far can it go at 70MPH before it needs a recharge? 00:15:21 IIRC, 250km. 00:15:32 So it's about a 120 to 130 mile range or thereabouts. 00:15:40 erm? about 120 miles? 00:16:00 My car gets about 165 to 174 miles out of a full tank of gas. (Remember it's also 24 years old) 00:16:09 erm ... you'd better check that number 00:16:34 most cars are designed to get 400 miles/tank 00:16:38 Be more specific. 00:16:48 Most cars TODAY are, sure. 00:16:56 that's something I can't get my wife to understand ... all cars go roughly the same distance on a tank of gas 00:17:02 And those are 3-bangers with meager power outputs. 00:17:25 Only because they scale the gas tank with the engine consumption. 00:17:38 no my camry goes 350 00:17:40 But my car gets 170 miles (average) on a tank (17MPG, 10 gallon tank) 00:17:43 yes, exactly 00:17:49 * kc5tja sighs 00:17:52 it's an industry standard 00:17:55 Your Camry is a lot newer than my car. 00:18:22 your car is an rx-7? 00:18:24 Yes 00:18:25 24 years old? 00:18:26 the pickup goes about 400 miles/tank (unloaded) ... 800 miles total 00:18:27 1980. 00:18:35 what's the newest rx-7 ? 00:18:38 2002? 00:18:42 yes 00:18:44 do they still produce rx-7 00:18:49 what about rx-8? 00:18:51 not sure if they still use the rotary engine, though 00:19:03 The latest RX-7 was Japan only, 2002. 17MPG, still. But they have a 20 gallon tank. 00:19:17 The RX-8 will have substantially improved fuel economy, dropping back to a 10 gallon tank. 00:19:21 anyway, 120 miles is "OK" for a personal commuter vehicle 00:19:24 It'll have 35 to 40MPG. 00:19:27 is 17mpg pretty bad ? 00:19:35 futhin_: By today's standards, it's horrible. 00:19:44 Back then, it was far in excess of the 8MPG piston engines of the day. 00:19:52 futhin_: for my pickup, it's damn good 00:20:06 btw, my camry is an '89 00:20:06 That's why you hear such mixed complaints and praises for the rotary's fuel efficiency. 00:20:19 Yes, and my car has an engine in it made in the late 60s. 00:20:26 today's rotary cars are _still_ at 17mpg ? 00:20:29 Mazda 12A 1.1L displacement rotary, 100HP. 00:20:39 futhin_: Mazda improved power, not fuel efficiency. 00:20:55 RX-7s are raw sports cars. People who drive them typically don't care about fuel economy that much. 00:21:00 futhin: the rotary has a tendency to incompletely burn fuel 00:21:20 what's the reason that only mazda produces cars with rotary engines (so it seems to me)? 00:21:20 so the milage suffers, especially when at high RPMs 00:21:32 They improved the combustion rates with the latest 13B RENESIS. It has a much larger volume to surface area ratio, and has side ports instead of peripheral ports. 00:21:49 futhin_: Because they're the only ones who has the balls to do it. 00:21:56 but they have far superior power/weight ratios ... and excellent acceleration 00:22:04 MrReach: I disagree. The milage is the same at high RPMs as it is at low. 00:23:00 so is 17mpg the best you can get or are there other rx-7's with better mileage? 00:23:18 are any of the rx-7 / rx-8 more than two seats? 00:23:23 futhin_: For the 1994 and earlier US model RX-7s, 17mpg is the best you can get stock. 00:23:28 more than 2-3 seats 00:23:28 if you think about the burn time in the combustion chamber at 8k rpm, you realize that it CAN'T have a complete burn 00:23:32 RX-8 is a 4-seater car. 00:23:51 rx-8 is 4-seater and what kind of mpg ? 00:23:54 MrReach: I drive my car every day. It gets 17MPG regardless of its RPM. 00:24:05 ok 00:24:22 17 isn't bad for a sports car, incidently 00:24:43 The numbers aren't in yet, but they're predicting 35MPG freeway, 24MPG city. Still not the best, but substantially improved over earlier generation engines. It's also firmly competitive with Corvettes and high-end BMW sports cars (which is their competition) 00:25:03 * MrReach nods. 00:25:04 RX-7s are speced 24MPG freeway, 17MPG city. 00:25:15 did they ever solve the problem with the apex seals? 00:25:20 For my driving, I get 17MPG. But, going to Los Angeles, it did get 22MPG. 00:25:35 They did with the 1979 RX-7. 00:25:50 That's why you still see RX-7s on the road, but not RX-4s. :) 00:25:53 what's it's top end then? 00:26:17 engine RPM, that is 00:26:17 My car is 8000; the 13B RE is 8500, The 13B REW is 9500, and the 13B RENESIS is 10500. 00:26:59 The RENESIS, BTW, gets 250HP shaft power naturally aspirated, while still being 50% more fuel efficient than my engine. 00:27:28 futhin_: I should explain ... rotary engines have little reciprocating wieght, so very little vibration ... and they have lots of power all through their operating range 00:27:43 http://www.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine.html 00:28:24 so you're driving a car that says "redline at 8,000 RPM" ... except it's still got LOTS of torque at 7,500, feels like it could go to 10,000 easy 00:28:26 i've already researched rotary engines a bit 00:28:53 but sure, you're telling me new stuff 00:28:54 :) 00:28:59 Yes 00:29:05 And it has 223500 miles on it. :D 00:29:07 unlike a reciprocating engine, which starts to lose torgue around 5,000rpm, usually 00:29:09 (and yes, it is due for a rebuild) 00:30:03 so you keep giving it the gas, and at 8,000 rpm exactly the apex seals on the tips of the rotor fail and throw sand all over the inside of the engine 00:30:05 rx-4 was rotary? 00:30:21 ouch... 00:30:24 Man, you ain't seen or heard nothing until you've witnessed a 3rd generation Mazda RX-7 with a 3-rotor engine in it. *DROOL!!* 500HP in a car that weighs 1/2 to 1/3rd as much as a Viper. 00:30:27 sand all over? that's bad? 00:30:34 i've seen 4 RX7s with blown apex seals 00:30:36 Any Mazda car with RX in it is a rotary engine car. RX stands for Rotary Export. 00:30:42 ok 00:31:01 yes, it's fair to say it completely destroys the engine 00:31:06 heh 00:31:11 that's what i thought i remembered reading 00:31:13 ouch 00:31:46 I've often wondered if Mazda should incorporate a built-in governor 00:31:54 Well, you over-rev the engine in a piston, and you'll blow a conrod, which requires an engine rebuild anyway. At least a rotary is salvagable if you rechrome the rotor housing. :) 00:31:56 that limits the top-end RPM 00:32:13 MrReach: They do incorporate a governor. 00:32:16 My car has one. 00:32:18 so what if i wanted to get a rotary engine car that had comparably REALLY GOOD mileage and wasn't too new (cheaper) 00:32:22 ok 00:32:25 which ones would be the best best? 00:32:35 futhin_: They don't exist. 00:32:59 i said "comparably" :) 00:33:03 futhin_: If you want higher milage from the car, you'd need to swap the engine with a custom made rotary, or go with a rather expensive Wankel from Rotary Power Incorporated. 00:33:06 comparably to all other rotary cars 00:33:06 if you want REALLY good milage, get a Honda Prius 00:33:27 i have a mazda b2200 1992 00:33:31 their gasoline/electric hybrid 00:33:33 Comparable to other rotaries? The RX-7 stock is it. 00:33:41 All other rotary engine cars sucked compared to the RX-7. 00:33:48 it's pretty good mileage, altho i'm not exactly sure what mileage it gets 00:34:20 i think it probably gets 700 miles from 40 gallons 00:34:24 Toyota makes an HEV too. 70HP -- makes my car look like a snail too. Based on the Camry chassis too, so it actually looks nice. The Honda is good looking too -- based on the Prelude chassis. 00:34:28 doesn't the "2200" stand for the displacement of the conventional engine? 00:34:42 Yes. It's a 2.2L displacement engine. 00:34:46 mrreach: no idea.. it's a two-seater small pick up truck.. 00:34:54 yes, I've driven one 00:35:07 my college roomie used to race his stock 00:35:08 what's special about a displacement engine ? 00:35:13 B3000 is the highest B-series pickup they make -- 3.0L. Beyond that, Ford trucks are actually Mazda trucks. :D 00:35:19 it only determines milage 00:35:26 my truck doesn't really accelerate that fast.. 00:35:33 not compared to most cars these days 00:35:37 For a piston engine, 2.2L isn't that big. 00:35:48 and pickups are a bad choice for milage 00:35:59 mrreach: your roommie raced with it? 00:36:14 futhin_: Your truck won't go very fast anyway -- the transmission is optimized for hauling, not racing. 00:36:25 they can get pretty good milage, but they are designed to haul heavy loads when needed 00:36:26 yeah.. 00:36:47 which means the engine is oversized when running empty 00:37:22 Hmm...a variable displacement piston engine...now that's a concept. 00:37:32 * MrReach looks up his engine's displacement in liters, for kc5tja's benefit 00:37:40 I know they have weird mechanisms to make a variable displacement Stirling cycle engine, why haven't they adopted it to a piston engine? 00:37:43 i get 17.5 kilometers per liter 00:38:04 how many liters in a gallon? 00:38:04 futhin_: You live in Canada, right? 00:38:08 yes 00:38:08 3.8 00:38:16 yes i live in canada 00:38:28 7.5 liters 00:38:44 my truck is 36 mpg i guess 00:38:47 futhin_: According to my math, that's 41MPG. 00:38:52 oh 00:38:58 oops 00:39:04 I could have my conversions wrong though; it is 12:38AM. :D 00:39:08 (for me) 00:39:08 times'd by 6 instead of 7 00:39:16 it's 1:39 am for me 00:39:16 :P 00:39:24 yours is correct 00:39:25 no, the engine displacement in my truck is 7.5 liters, compared to the 2.2 liters in your mini-truck 00:40:03 mrreach: 3.8 liters per gallon.. 41 mpg for my truck 00:40:06 My 1.1L 12A is equivalent to a 3.3L V6 piston engine of its era. 00:40:11 ah! ok 00:40:45 why are the gas prices so high these days? 00:40:46 And the 1.3L 13Bs are equivalent to 4.0L V6s. :) 00:40:46 I discovered today that my truck seems to have a fuel problem ... it seems to be getting 6MPG 00:40:58 i haven't been following news about OPEC 00:41:00 and stuff 00:41:08 futhin_: because it's summertime ... more demand for fuel 00:41:16 hm 00:41:22 futhin_: Partly because of the war in the middle east (wars actually), and partly because we Americans generally tend to be wasteful of fuel. 00:41:33 heh 00:41:36 fuel prices are usually 30% higher in July/August than in Dec/Jan 00:42:00 so are _all_ years of rx-7 of same mileage or are some years better than others ?? 00:42:17 OK, that's it. I'm just going to have to make a solar powered, external combustion engine for my go-karts. I don't want to waste Earth's resources just to have fun around the parking lot. 00:42:25 heheh 00:42:29 * MrReach laughs. 00:42:37 go-karts are fun 00:42:43 there's a briefcase go-kart 00:42:45 for driving to work 00:42:47 and back 00:42:49 very effective 00:42:58 Too bad those things are illegal to drive in America. 00:43:07 yep 00:43:16 bah, how fast do they go? 60 mph? :P 00:43:18 ANYTHING except a "normal car" is illegal actually. 00:43:29 SUVs are illegal ;) 00:43:30 it's impossible for the to be a new-car manufacturer form in the USA 00:44:01 Actually, SUVs USED to be exempt from smog and emissions laws here in California, because they were "farm vehicles." They *just now* changed the law to enforce emissions laws on them. 00:44:02 the testing and compliance requirements are HUGE 00:44:11 check this out: http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.html 00:44:40 MrReach: And as well they should be. Though it's a large barrier to entry in this country, we also have some of the highest safety standards anywhere. 00:45:31 check that link 00:45:32 but anyways 00:45:38 it's bedtime darn it! :P 00:45:41 good night all 00:45:45 --- quit: futhin_ ("sleep!") 00:46:33 heh, I'm trying to find pics of the truck to show people 00:46:47 Unbelievably funny!!! 00:46:51 I LOVE this site! 00:50:23 yes, but it seriously impairs innovation 00:50:37 the same thing happened in the home contruction industry 00:51:08 for instance, window area was severely restricted for a couple of decades in an effort to reduce thermal loss 00:51:22 which prevented all passive solar designs 00:52:21 * kc5tja nods 00:52:22 True. 00:54:15 I just think that the system as a whole needs to be designed together. 00:54:42 Most houses are designed piecemeal by different contracters, and then "interfaced" together using industry standards alone, failing to consider the homeowner's unique location and its capabilities. 00:55:09 yup 00:55:11 Whem employing rational, wholistic approaches towards engineering, the need for complex regulations and "fads" disappears. 00:55:33 Which, after all this discussion, brings us to FS/Forth, my replacement for DOS on my laptop. :D 00:55:39 something else that bothers me, and it's really a major fault in capitalism ... 00:55:54 is the turnover in market product 00:56:10 once I find a suitable product, I can't buy it two years later 00:57:08 for example, my grandmother gave me a bread toaster made in the 1950s, it's was an excellent toaster (one of those chome jobbies) ... browned evenly, NEVER broke or wore 00:57:28 I finally wore it out after another 8 years of use 00:57:47 (actually, a part broke that couldn't be replaced) 00:57:54 think I can find that toaster now? 00:57:59 * kc5tja nods 00:58:03 Nope -- it's a relic now. 00:58:13 as a result, I've bought a toaster every 2-3 years since then 00:58:14 Incestuous greed. 00:58:30 because that's how long they last 00:58:53 I had to go to 4 different stores before I found a can opener that was well built 00:59:22 it was a restaraunt supply company, I paid $10 for it 00:59:41 think I could find it at a retail company? nope 01:00:00 (manual can opener, btw) 01:01:54 * kc5tja nods 01:02:01 I have three P-38s on my keychain. :D 01:02:26 Even though we have an electric and manually operated can opener, I have never had a problem with my P-38s. 01:03:30 heh 01:05:18 http://24.25.221.15/IMAGES/PICTURES/ford-f350/88BEAST.jpg 01:05:26 that's ALMOST my truck 01:05:35 http://24.25.221.15/IMAGES/PICTURES/ford-f350/88BEAST.jpg 01:05:44 ooops, sorry 01:05:59 http://24.25.221.15/Beast-pics.html 01:06:43 just a sec 01:07:13 That's not a Diesel, is it? 01:07:21 nope 01:07:25 neither is mine 01:08:23 the only difference is that mine is a 4x4 ... very rare in that year 01:10:24 Ahh. 01:10:39 Man, I really hate the look of a V8 engine. Even a V6 is just ... ewww. 01:10:53 Although from the pictures, it looks like your engine sits pretty low in the engine bay, yes? 01:10:56 * MrReach laughs 01:11:03 yes 01:11:12 I like the elegance of a 4-cylinder or 6-cylinder inline. 01:11:24 got room to play with manifolds w/o cutting up the hood 01:11:28 so do I 01:11:37 I know they don't produce the same power (well, they do, but they can't handle the torque, so they rev higher), but...man. 01:11:49 Now I would *love* to see a 5 cylinder radial in a truck... 01:11:56 however, my 5th wheel camper weighs 8,700 lbs 01:12:12 it NEEDS that 460 01:12:37 Sure, no complaints about the power. 01:12:45 It's just that a V8 just "seems" wrong to me. 01:12:57 It looks too lopsided and top-heavy. :) 01:13:03 (even though it isn't) 01:13:09 actually, I'd like to see the cylinder opposed 01:13:23 subarus are pretty elegant that way 01:13:34 so are VWs 01:14:10 but that means the crank height is all wrong to mate straight into a transmission 01:14:16 Hmm, yes. Porsche Boxters have opposed cylinder engines too 01:14:58 That's what I like about the RX-8's engine. Although it's still a 1.3L displacement engine, it's frontal area is smaller. The engine is the same size as the car's transmission. :D 01:15:12 * MrReach nods. 01:15:23 Based on what I've read so far, the engine's bell housing is just a small cylinder, and is mounted inline with the tranny. 01:15:36 * kc5tja can't imagine that, even though I drive a car with an engine already smaller than a computer montior. 01:15:53 Damn, 1:15AM. I have to get to bed. 01:16:03 I should go get pictures of the truck tomorrow, I've already started work on it 01:16:20 so do I 01:21:07 Well, nice chatting with you. :) 01:21:10 I'm off to bed. 01:21:18 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 01:21:18 thanks, you too 02:27:06 --- quit: Speuler1 (Connection timed out) 02:30:13 --- join: Speuler1 (~l@62.155.142.155) joined #forth 03:12:56 --- join: _MrReach_ (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 03:31:37 --- quit: MrReach (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:39:07 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:40:07 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 04:25:42 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:26:06 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 04:56:47 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 05:26:16 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@217.10.35.226) joined #forth 05:26:43 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 06:45:19 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:45:55 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 08:40:06 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 08:44:28 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 08:47:36 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 09:10:40 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:10:40 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:33:05 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 10:05:59 --- quit: Speuler1 ("TimMosley: /dev/ttyS0") 10:33:42 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.175.61) joined #forth 10:34:44 good morning all 10:34:52 hello _mrreach_ 10:36:56 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit) 10:37:34 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 10:42:18 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 10:42:19 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@24.214.86.42) joined #forth 10:47:46 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 10:51:58 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 11:10:33 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:10:33 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:22:34 * kc5tja sighs 11:22:45 The more I work with really complicated VLSI circuits, the more I wish it was all a dream. :) 11:23:34 VLSI is cool when each component is self-contained and easily and independently testable, but when *ALL* the units are so deeply intertwined, it's like trying to debug a spaghetti BASIC program with nothing more sophisticated than a patchpanel with 24 LEDs on it. 11:28:13 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@209.91.66.234) joined #forth 12:37:57 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 12:37:57 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:52:15 --- join: proteusguy (~irc@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 13:00:29 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 13:09:33 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login19.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 13:09:41 re tcn 13:10:05 hey 13:19:15 --- quit: _MrReach_ () 13:27:42 --- join: tcn2 (tcn@tc1-login19.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 13:27:43 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:28:19 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 13:39:35 --- nick: tcn2 -> tcn 13:53:46 --- part: tcn left #forth 14:10:11 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:11:59 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:48:19 --- quit: kc5tja ("BitchX-75p3 -- just do it.") 15:54:18 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 16:43:58 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 16:43:58 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:07:43 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 17:42:42 --- join: geakazoid (JB@adsl-63-206-90-130.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:49:59 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on) 17:54:24 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@209.91.66.234) joined #forth 18:01:02 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 18:21:22 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-245.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:21:22 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:21:30 hiya all 18:23:24 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 18:23:35 hello are there any PDA programmers online? Does anyone here use dsForth? 18:23:57 hello, or Quartus? 18:24:54 * TheBlueWizard has seen Quartus Forth...knows of someone using that 18:25:07 but I don't have Pilot...sorry 18:26:46 that guy I know of is hoping to make money selling Pilot apps written in Quartus Forth, and even solicit me for help...I told him I'd have to spend some dough...I personally don't see any return on that, so.... 18:28:03 well, I am looking at porting some my apps on a PDA but I do not know if there is a return either 18:29:09 heh...yeah....though I suspect porting wouldn't be too difficult, provided your apps don't use a lot of "unusual" constructs that pushes the envelope :) 18:29:32 mostly basic logic similar to old BASIC games 18:30:08 I was looking at them more seriously than before because it seems they are getting cheap enough to buy and they are gadgets people might like to have 18:30:25 and, they are faster than my old 486 18:30:53 :) 18:31:41 sounds prolly doable....especially as a shareable (if you are gunning for money)...though I'm pretty much a FS guy nowadays 18:32:00 FS? 18:32:08 FSF? 18:32:18 Free Software 18:33:46 I am working on programs for educational software and here are my links to FSF about conversations on how a non-profit could use FS for ES 18:33:47 http://www.dolfina.org/GNUTools.htm 18:34:39 I don't drink bear so free as in bear does nothing for me 18:35:15 I think one can eat and pay bills with FS 18:35:59 :) 18:36:20 if I can get a job as a FS programmer, I'd be quite happy! 18:36:49 cool webpage BTW 18:37:11 oh thanks 18:37:45 well, the way figure it, to actually work with FS one has to do negotiating which means become businesslike or minded 18:38:29 FS could merely be Free Speech unless there is an equal exchange of resources whether bear or money 18:39:09 beer -) 18:39:22 * TheBlueWizard nods 18:39:48 I am not a business type guy, just one darn good coder, is all :) 18:40:04 then you need a business partner 18:40:30 like an artist, writer, actor, singer, dancer, etc... you need an agent 18:41:35 yeah... 18:42:30 from what i saw on the Quartus site, he does have a market 18:43:09 the dsforth site looks like they have been working hard on a cross-platform for mobile devices and there is a market emerging 18:44:23 hmm...then again I'm clueless :) 18:44:48 that is why you need a business partner 18:45:37 if I was you and the guy at Quartus asked me to program, I would think about a negotiated agreement that would protect your self and his self so that you can do FS without jeapardingzing his market 18:45:48 Ie FS is not for people; it is for programmers 18:47:58 Anyone can go to a law library but who can make sense out of it. we have a Free Country but we pay for knowledge 18:48:20 here is the agreement I prefer to use and it is GNU Compatible: http://www.statistica.unimib.it/utenti/dellavedova/software/artistic2.html 18:49:43 I think that you can write your program and sell a version under this FS License and he can edit, modify, change it and sperate it from you 18:49:45 interesting.... 18:50:25 you just service the code if he needs it 18:50:36 and you can be paid 18:51:13 well, what I want is a fulltime job position...I don't like job hunting 18:53:16 no one likes job hunting... but it is tight out there. I do not know what is opening up but I can see that it is getting quite competitive and you can more easily get onto a design and develoment team that you can be part owner of rather than an employee 18:55:11 another thing: I'm deaf 18:57:07 The BlueWizard: maybe a stupid question, but do you "hear" the sound of your voice in your head when you think? 18:57:36 well, my self I listen between my ears and there is an inner hearing that is different from the outer hearing 18:58:45 CrowKiller: nope 18:59:06 it sounds like water rushing at the ocean, shshshshs, or wshshsh 18:59:23 or like a radar that whales or dolfins might hear 19:00:51 gotta go...bye all! 19:00:57 bye 19:01:01 bye geakazoid 19:01:07 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:01:07 see you later! 19:02:09 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 19:02:10 CrowKiller I had a deaf student in workshops I teach, and she had some inner sounds that she heard and she was totally deaf 19:02:49 the sounds might be more like feeling vibrations next to the woofer but she could sense the ones hearing people cannot feel 19:03:36 total silence could make me go crazy I think, or at least in a deep meditative state all day long 19:03:54 yeah maybe she got sensitivity for other frequencies 19:04:10 There's two broad categories of deafness. 19:04:39 Those who are absolutely *truely* deaf -- the neurological center in the brain just isn't wired for sound, and those who have a malformity in the ear which prevents them from hearing sound (at least as we hear it). 19:05:07 (note: the latter case doesn't preclude neurological malformities either) 19:05:56 kc5tja you are probably right since I can switch between both in my own head 19:06:02 I know the sound difference 19:06:57 * CrowKiller is trying to picture perfect deafness and thinks it might give the mind more processing power left for other purposes 19:07:31 CrowKiller: You're correct. Most people who lack in one sense are proportionately more sensitive in the other senses. 19:07:44 The brain adapts and adjusts, automatically. 19:08:53 CrowKiller: BTW: I started making the regression test package for my assembler. So far, everything is testing OK. Only got through a couple sets of opcode types though. 19:09:13 I do believe thought that the brain can actually regenerate tissues if the known stimulus could be transmitted to the barin to ignite it 19:09:16 I'll try to work on the test package again tomorrow. 19:09:46 anyway, back to my original question: any PDA programmers here using Quartus or dsforth? 19:10:01 ill try to work on my editor as soon as i'm able to do so 19:10:38 geakazoid: Actually, funny you mention that. Recent research concluded that after a spinal or other neuralogical damage incident, the neurological tissue *DOES* usually regenerate. HOWEVER, it regenerates in a completely different pattern and is completely untrained (even as a fetus, your neurons are in a more advanced state of training than these!). 19:10:49 All we need to do is figure out how to train them. :) 19:11:03 geakazoid: No, but I'd like to become one at some point. 19:11:33 * kc5tja was also amusing myself with the possibility of porting a special version of FS/Forth (the Forth I'm writing) to the Palm to run natively. Of course, it'd need a flashable Palm, but... 19:11:49 i want to port my forth concpet to the mcuh platform possible 19:12:01 that,s why i try to keep to the essentials 19:14:32 i would love my editor to have a straight forward design as much as the compiler 19:16:47 Unfortunately, complexity is inherent in all systems. 19:16:59 While each individual component may be simple, the aggregate whole ends up being quite complex. 19:17:22 Look no further than the source to ColorForth (a decidedly "simple" environment) for proof. 19:17:30 yes but the compiler is really simple in essence, it can't get much better than this 19:18:04 the only thing I might add is the lit optimization like chuck did 19:19:49 but its too complex for the performance gain I think 19:19:54 it sure produce clean code 19:20:52 without ?dup mov EAX, lit *operation* EAX, [ESI], but i found it taking too much place in the compiler 19:23:43 --- quit: geakazoid (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:23:46 I'm sorry. I couldn't understand the last sentence you wrote. Can you rephrase that? 19:25:27 my lit construct 19:25:34 uses ? dup word 19:25:50 that eliminates "drop dup" in the code sequence 19:25:52 then it 19:25:58 uses mov eax, imm32 opcode 19:26:07 to put a number on stack 19:26:19 OK, I see what you're saying. 19:26:26 chuck detect that and replace every operation with its imm32 form 19:26:28 Sure, that's only one or two cycles per literal at the most. 19:26:36 cleaner code to the cost of a little complexity 19:26:47 and litteral dont happen too often 19:26:59 and code can be decompiled one to one to source code 19:27:24 so ill stick with my lit function for implementing the Number functionality in the editor 19:27:25 Well, in "normal" Forth code, I'd probably agree. Having seen Chuck's coding practices, however, he does a lot of interpretation at compile time, and sets constant values all over the place. 19:35:40 i really like my editor model though, 8 kind of words, each utilizing color to ease processing 19:42:04 I have to admit that I'm using ColorForth-ish techniques in my own Forth. 19:42:12 Lots of interpret-time activity going on. 19:42:38 [ and ] are used for words that compile something into the current definition (consider: my assembler's mnemonics). 19:43:06 I'm trying to reduce the number of dedicated COMPILER words, although I'll continue to have a number of standard words floating around. 19:43:39 In my testing environment for the assembler, I defined the #( word which accepts a hexadecimal byte input, terminated with ), like this: #( 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 ). 19:43:59 This also compiles the numbers right into the dictionary space, where it can be readily compared against the output of my assembler. 19:44:13 It's interesting that something like: 19:44:49 : WAITKEY BEGIN ." Press ENTER to continue." KEY 13 = UNTIL ; 19:44:54 can be written like this: 19:45:45 : WAITKEY [ BEGIN $" Press ENTER to continue" $, ] KEY [ 13 =, UNTIL ] ; 19:46:12 In this way, BEGIN, UNTIL, =, and so forth need not be immediate/compiler words. 19:46:48 In fact, =, would be optimized to compare against a numeric literal (as I've used it above) directly, thus guaranteeing the most optimal code production possible. 19:48:19 In a way, it's really nice to be able to have such explicit control over what gets interpretted at compile time, what gets compiled, and what compiles code to compile at compile-time, and what compiles code at run-time. 19:49:53 I try to get that kind of control implemented from the start too 19:51:09 The funny thing is, that kind of control has always been there. 19:51:59 ? 19:52:30 i try at least to lay it out as simply as possible, without having to learn much layers to get something done 19:52:32 Forth has always had [ and ], right from the earliest compilers. 20:01:07 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@209.91.66.234) joined #forth 20:06:15 re Kitanin 20:27:36 I have to go, see ya everyone 20:27:36 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:27:41 --- quit: CrowKiller ("Enslavement is not an option") 20:43:09 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 21:29:59 --- quit: kc5tja (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:29:59 --- quit: Soap` (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:30:00 --- quit: goshawk` (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:30:00 --- quit: ChanServ (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:31:01 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 21:31:01 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-226.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 21:31:01 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:31:01 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 21:31:01 --- mode: bear.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 21:35:00 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.175.61) joined #forth 21:35:56 howdy 21:35:59 hi kc5jta 21:36:12 re 21:41:11 futhin: I was discussing the PalmOS debacle recently (that WinCE has significantly gained ground on PalmOS) with a friend of mine, who is a fellow Forth user 21:41:20 And we got to discussing what we'd do to make our own. 21:41:37 Of course, I advocated using Forth running on an ARM processor. :) A 320x320 LCD matrix with on-screen configurable keyboard. 21:43:42 Actually, Sony's Clie uses 320x480. I'd quite likely use that resolution, to be honest. 21:44:27 320x480 has the nice advantage that it almost perfectly matches the aspect ratio of a sheet of 8.5"x11" paper. 21:45:39 Basically, there are a lot of ideas I want to try with FS/Forth. The whole GUI thing, for example. 21:46:05 Use of scene graphs to describe the display to a rendering background task, and performing input as a separate measure. 21:46:13 I think it would prove rather interesting. 21:46:55 hey kc5tja: when reading documents online, would you prefer a black background ? 21:47:54 Actually, I prefer a subtle shade of dark blue (like a deep navy blue) with cream-colored text. 21:48:01 Of all the color schemes, that's the most pleasing to the eye. 21:48:05 To MY eye, at least. 21:48:33 Why do you ask? 21:48:50 this guy is creating a documentation site, that is hopefully going to have lots of traffic.. 21:48:59 and he has chosen black backgrounds.. 21:49:22 and i'm telling him black backgrounds won't appeal to the majority of his traffic.. 21:53:07 References to the psychology of color indicate that white on blue is the most soothing of all color schemes. I find it a tad bit harsh, so that's why I deepened the shade of blue and turned the white color into a cream, almost tan, color. 21:55:17 yeah 22:06:19 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@h-209-91-66-234.gen.cadvision.com) joined #forth 22:13:20 Man, it's been many years since I last looked at Philip Koopman's book. 22:14:21 i bookmarked it and haven't looked at it since.. 22:22:48 Well, it's not the type of book that you usually would look back on, except for nostalgia. 22:23:03 The whole concept of stack architectures is so simple that you get it in one reading, and it's engrained in your head permanently. :) 22:28:21 Man...just think of what having a no pipeline, 266MHz processor would be like today... 23:41:42 hmm 23:41:43 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:42:01 heh 23:42:14 266mhz with no pipeline would be fast? :) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.01