00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.07.27
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05:02:04 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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08:49:04 <Robert> Hey ho.
08:49:10 <futhin> hey whore
08:49:20 <futhin> :P
08:49:23 <futhin> hm
08:49:26 <futhin> what's up robert
08:49:28 <Robert> BAH.
08:49:31 <futhin> what you code lately in forth?
08:49:37 <Robert> I'm coding a forthish little VM.
08:49:48 <Robert> For a bot war game I'm writing with another guy.
08:52:46 <futhin> hmm
08:52:48 <futhin> what is the vm like?
08:53:34 <Robert> Uhm.
08:53:45 <Robert> Like... tokenized forth primitives.
08:54:19 <futhin> where does the vm fit into the bot war game?
08:55:08 <Robert> Well, the bot's AI is running in this vm.
08:58:48 <futhin> so you are coding the ai in forthish?
09:00:15 <Robert> Well, I'll write a compiler later, but the AI will be compiled to a forth-like bytecode.
09:03:11 <futhin> what lang is the ai going to be coded in??
09:03:13 <futhin> forth ?
09:03:36 <futhin> tell me its going to be in forth :)
09:10:29 <futhin> rrraaaaaawwwww beeeehhhhrrrrrttt
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09:55:23 <futhin> hello cleverdra
09:55:31 <cleverdra> hello futhin
09:55:31 <futhin> is the forth strong in you?
09:56:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
09:56:19 <cleverdra> It's weak at the moment, but I expect it to rise soon.
09:56:50 --- topic: set to 'Is the Forth strong in you? | Forth OS - roll your own in an hour! | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by futhin
09:57:12 <futhin> yeah
09:57:18 <futhin> i'm a tribute to cycles :P
09:57:26 <futhin> i go thru cycles of programming, reading, etc
09:57:31 <futhin> and laziness/games
09:58:32 * cleverdra nods.
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10:06:37 --- kick: Fractal_ was kicked by futhin (hi, you there? ;))
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10:06:50 <futhin> yay, that was my first kick on this channel
10:06:58 <futhin> i _have_ to start somewhere.. :P
10:07:22 --- mode: futhin set -o futhin
10:08:59 <futhin> does anybody ever code while extremely drunk?
10:09:18 <futhin> what's the longest anybody has coded straight?
10:10:18 <cleverdra> drunk?
10:10:23 <futhin> naw
10:10:26 <futhin> drunk or not drunk
10:10:36 <cleverdra> Probably three or four days.
10:10:43 <futhin> straight without sleep?
10:10:59 <cleverdra> With cocain, yes.
10:11:04 <futhin> well i was asking the people in the channel what the longest they have
10:11:09 <cleverdra> oh,
10:11:18 <futhin> you?
10:11:30 <cleverdra> 7 or 8 hours.
10:11:39 <futhin> hello kc5tja
10:15:26 <futhin> the fate of this channel today is to be quiet and not much discussion.  are forthers capable of altering the future?!
10:16:56 <futhin> forthers are capable of many things, of altering space and time, but can they alter something which has already happened?!
10:17:20 <futhin> <-- bored while finishing the last chapter of a great book!
10:17:40 <cleverdra> what book?
10:18:21 <futhin> restoring the american dream
10:18:35 <futhin> it's a libertarian book..
10:19:16 <futhin> written by robert j. ringer, the guy who wrote "looking out for number 1" and other books about rational living
10:21:10 <futhin> so what are you up to cleverdra? (i'm bored, trying to get a conversation going..)
10:22:38 <cleverdra> I'm enlisting into the US Air Force.  Right now I'm also bored -- my mother's computer, the only one that my palm can talk to, crashed right before I was inspired to put Kafka writings on it.
10:22:52 <futhin> ouch
10:23:13 <futhin> very important to have kafka writings with you while in the air force! 
10:23:18 <cleverdra> Indeed!
10:23:27 <futhin> (i haven't read anything by kafka so i don't actually know what he's all about)
10:23:42 <cleverdra> I'm also thinking of trying to find mp3s of the Leningrad Symphony.
10:23:53 <cleverdra> futhin - one sec,
10:25:22 <futhin> cleverdra: this libertarian book says you shouldn't be employed by the government (because the government takes money out of the economy to pay government employees, and this ultimately hurts the economy)
10:27:17 * cleverdra thinks that looking at questia.com was a mistake
10:28:17 <kc5tja> re
10:28:50 * kc5tja is trying to get a DHCP server running on our network router box.
10:29:20 <cleverdra> http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=5200
10:29:40 <cleverdra> There.  That's Metamorphosis, which I just finished reading.
10:30:19 <cleverdra> futhin - which book is that?
10:32:59 * cleverdra . o ( storge agapeo phileo eros )
10:34:41 <futhin> i know agape and phileo and eros, but storge?  is that like having a stiffy?  :P
10:36:30 <cleverdra> storge appears to be the kind of love that is directed at kin, but I'm trying to find a non-biblical site.
10:37:01 <cleverdra> also, epithemia
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12:18:10 <Robert> Hi kc5tja :)
12:18:30 <kc5tja> Howdy
12:19:02 <Robert> Do you know a good abs algorithm in IA-32 assembly?
12:19:09 <Robert> Without branching, if possible.
12:20:03 <kc5tja> I recall seeing one before, but I have to remember it.
12:20:13 <cleverdra> I think that isforth's abs doesn't have branching
12:20:28 <Robert> Oh.
12:20:31 <Robert> I'll check it out.
12:20:34 <Robert> Thanks both :)
12:21:21 <Robert>  mov eax, ebx               ;set ebx = sign of n1
12:21:21 <Robert>  sar eax, byte 31           ;propogate sign bit if n1 throughout ebx
12:21:21 <Robert>  xor ebx, eax               ;will invert n1 if n1 was negative
12:21:21 <Robert>  sub ebx, eax               ;will subtract -1 if n1 was negative
12:21:28 <Robert> You were right.
12:22:07 <cleverdra> Is that a good algorithm, though?
12:22:29 <Robert> No idea.
12:22:36 <Robert> Any suggestions for a better one?
12:24:05 <Robert> I think I've seen something like l0: neg eax / jg l0
12:25:25 <Robert> Maybe it was jl... /me checks.
12:25:55 <kc5tja> Watch out -- that's Motorola syntax for Intel assembly.  MOV EAX,EBX means EAX := EBX
12:25:56 <cleverdra> probably jl
12:26:18 <kc5tja> Unless your initial comment is wrong.
12:26:30 <kc5tja> Which the use of Intel syntax for the remainder of the code seems to suggest.
12:26:40 <kc5tja> Also, sar eax, byte 31??  What's the byte for?
12:26:53 <cleverdra> kc5 - nasm syntax
12:27:04 <kc5tja> Nasm uses Intel syntax
12:27:05 <Robert> NASM :)
12:27:15 <cleverdra> kc5 - then that's Intel syntax
12:27:15 <kc5tja> Then your first comment is wrong.
12:27:27 <Robert> I know.
12:27:28 <kc5tja> Should read ; set eax = sign of n1
12:27:31 <Robert> But it's not my comment.
12:27:32 <cleverdra> kc5 - is it?
12:27:36 <cleverdra> kc5 - look at it again?
12:27:48 <kc5tja> MOV EAX,<whatever> loads EAX with <whatever>
12:27:51 <Robert> Hmm...
12:28:02 <cleverdra> <Robert>  mov eax, ebx               ;set ebx = sign of n1
12:28:04 <kc5tja> MOV EAX,EBX, therefore, loads EAX with the contents of EBX.
12:28:07 <cleverdra> Watch out -- that's Motorola syntax for Intel assembly.  MOV EAX,EBX means EAX := EBX
12:28:12 <cleverdra> <kc5tja> Nasm uses Intel syntax
12:29:29 * kc5tja can read, I can assure you.
12:29:36 <kc5tja> I'm not sure what the purpose of the reposting is for.
12:29:48 * kc5tja stands by his observation.
12:30:00 <cleverdra> kc5 - I was hoping that I don't have to spell it out,
12:30:09 <kc5tja> Please do.
12:30:27 <cleverdra> THE COMMENT SAYS THAT IT SETS EBX, WHICH IS CONTRARY TO YOUR 'WATCH OUT' REMARK.
12:30:29 * kc5tja programs Intel assembly for a living now, and before then, was quite fluent with x86 architecture way back when the 8088 was brand new.  :)
12:30:46 <kc5tja> MY COMMENT SAYS THAT THE FIRST INSTRUCTION IS INCONGRUENT WITH THE COMMENT ASSOCIATED WITH IT.
12:31:16 <cleverdra> <kc5tja> Watch out -- that's Motorola syntax for Intel assembly.  MOV EAX,EBX means EAX := EBX
12:31:20 <kc5tja> Yes.
12:31:29 <kc5tja> If MOV EAX,EBX loads EBX, that's Motorola syntax!!
12:31:33 <kc5tja> Source, Dest
12:31:36 <kc5tja> Not Dest, Source
12:31:58 <kc5tja> I further said, later on, "Unless the comment is incorrect, which the use of Intel syntax for the remainder of the code seems to suggest."
12:32:03 * cleverdra comes to wonder what kc5 meant by "EAX := EBX"
12:32:18 <kc5tja> := operator, as in "is set to"?
12:32:25 <cleverdra> That's what I thought.,
12:33:23 <kc5tja> Before grilling me for making an ass of myself, you might want to do two things: read the whole exchange, and not just specific excerpts, and if that doesn't help, ask me for elucidation.
12:33:37 <kc5tja> Sheesh.
12:33:53 <cleverdra> No, I've lost interest.
12:34:08 <kc5tja> You apparently didn't before.
12:34:21 <kc5tja> You were happy to "spell it out" after all.
12:34:53 <kc5tja> Maybe I shouldn't hang around here anymore.  Seems like the regulars are too quick to judge, then back-pedal by not being interested.
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12:47:01 <cleverdra> curiously, does anyone else get what kc5 didn't?
12:47:53 <Robert> I didn't care to read, arguing about such a pointless detail for more than 5 minutes makes me change console.
12:49:32 <cleverdra> huh, OK.
12:50:07 <Robert> :)
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13:04:35 <cleverdra> OK.  from the comment of this, I'd propose that "mov eax, ebx" here meant "EBX := EAX": <Robert>  mov eax, ebx               ;set ebx = sign of n1
13:05:38 <cleverdra> You said, apparently referring to that, "<kc5tja> Watch out -- that's Motorola syntax for Intel assembly.  MOV EAX,EBX means EAX := EBX"  where "EAX := EBX" is apparently a Motorola-syntax interpretation of "mov eax, ebx"
13:05:56 <cleverdra> So, if that were Motorola syntax, the comment would certainly be wrong.
13:06:42 <cleverdra> Except that it's nasm syntax, which you say is Intel syntax, which you later implied (with Source,Dest examples) is the reverse of Motorola syntax... which I take to mean that the comment is not false.
13:07:50 <cleverdra> That's all.  I'm sorry that I became rude.
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14:03:13 <kc5tja> (For the benefit of the logs):
14:03:14 <kc5tja> No.
14:03:26 <kc5tja> Motorola syntax is Source, Destination format.
14:04:02 <kc5tja> Intel syntax is Destination, Source format.
14:04:18 <kc5tja> The comment clearly reads, "Set ebx = value of n1".
14:04:21 <kc5tja> THUS...
14:04:47 <Robert> I though this argument was over 2 hours ago.
14:04:48 <kc5tja> if EBX is being set and the line reads MOV EAX, EBX, then EBX must be the destination.  That means EAX must be the source, and thus, source,destination format is being used.  That's Motorola syntax.
14:05:00 <kc5tja> I'm trying to explain myself.
14:05:22 <kc5tja> Whatever I give up.
14:05:47 <kc5tja> From now on, I'll never take the time to explain anything I say.
14:05:55 <Robert> Yeah, but still, a minor detail being discussed for this long... No wonder Chuck concluded nothing interesting is going on here.
14:06:00 <kc5tja> If you or anyone else is confused, that's just not my problem.
14:06:13 <kc5tja> I'm through trying to participate in discussions, I'm trhough trying to help other people.
14:06:31 <Robert> That's good.
14:06:48 <kc5tja> Nothing interesting is going on here because nobody ever shows up and talks about useful things.
14:06:50 <Robert> But some discussions are more useful than others.
14:06:56 <kc5tja> So what else is there to talk about except rehashing.
14:07:01 <kc5tja> Right. 
14:07:04 <kc5tja> I pointed out a mistake.
14:07:13 <kc5tja> And the world fell down around me for doing so.
14:07:17 <Robert> And cleverdra started to argue, yes.
14:07:18 <kc5tja> Fuck it.  I don't care anymore.
14:07:18 <Robert> Hehe.
14:07:33 * Robert feels kc5tja isn't in a good mood.
14:07:43 <kc5tja> No, I'm not.
14:09:14 <kc5tja> I don't think you'd be in a good mood either if someone just started yelling at you for no satisfactory reason.
14:09:38 <kc5tja> A simple "What do you mean?" question would have cleared everything up.
14:10:14 <kc5tja> Instead, "I was hoping not to spell it out for you," was the response.  I asked him to spell it out, because I didn't see what it was he was confused over, and then he bellowed at me.
14:10:20 <kc5tja> Sorry, that was just uncalled for.
14:11:12 <Robert> Well, cleverdra starting to write in caps wasn't a very good thing...
14:13:06 * kc5tja even notices that the same old crap is being rehashed yet again on comp.lang.forth.  :(
14:13:10 <kc5tja> Nothing new there either.
14:13:29 <kc5tja> Except more of John Passanninni's dissertations.  
14:14:48 <kc5tja> I'm finding the whole Forth community to be incestuous at this point.  No influx of new ideas -- all I see is stagnation and rotting.
14:15:35 <Robert> Well, I'm writing a simple forth-style virtual machine for a project, I don't come up with many new ideas, I use good old ones.
14:15:45 <kc5tja> Which is fine.
14:16:11 <kc5tja> Even my Forth makes use of existing, well-established ideas, but I still innovate a little bit in how I work with the dictionary in my software.
14:16:25 <kc5tja> I mean, we don't need paradigm shifts every two years.
14:16:32 <kc5tja> Just new ways of thinking.
14:17:04 <kc5tja> ColorForth is a mind-expanding experience.  Pre-tokenized text is another.  Exposing more of the dictionary to the application (which is what I'm doing) is another.  
14:17:05 <Robert> Don't all [larger] projects introduce something new?
14:17:12 <kc5tja> You'd like to think so.
14:17:23 <kc5tja> But that's just it -- I'm not seeing any new larger projects on c.l.f.
14:17:28 <kc5tja> Just larger arguments.
14:17:48 <kc5tja> Or at least different ways of making the same argument.
14:17:55 * Robert would say the same about this channel.
14:18:01 <kc5tja> So would I
14:18:35 <kc5tja> That's why I lurk here now instead of actively participate.  When FS/Forth is done, I'll make the relavent announcements, but that'll fade in time too, I'm sure.
14:18:46 <kc5tja> I'm only one of, what, 8 people who attend here regularly?
14:19:12 <kc5tja> Not even; sif, clog, and Chanserv are bots.  :(
14:19:51 <kc5tja> Herkamire and I440r will make up for two of those at least.  So I'm one in about 7.
14:19:58 <kc5tja> Anyway, you get my idea.
14:20:18 <Robert> I'm a newbie to just about everything, I stick here to learn, there are some nice and experienced people in here.
14:20:37 <Robert> And ocne in a while, we even get some action. (Chuck or Jeff Fox visiting for example).
14:20:57 <kc5tja> When was the last time Chuck visited?
14:21:10 <kc5tja> (unannounced that is?)
14:21:26 <kc5tja> I know thefox occasionally visits, though he's never here when I am.  :)
14:21:52 <Robert> I've seen him a few times after that announced meeting.
14:25:33 <kc5tja> Interesting.
14:26:29 <Robert> Yeah, it's interesting how the Forth community is small enough to fit in an IRC channel. (I know that's not really true, but I guess you get my point)
14:26:33 <kc5tja> The idea of creating a Forth environment where loading an application causes the whole doggone environment to be recompiled on the fly, without the user even knowing it, is somewhat intriguing.
14:26:59 <Robert> "doggone environment"?
14:27:02 <Robert> What is that?
14:27:05 <kc5tja> Maybe if I actually get FS/Forth done and bootstrapped, I'll play with the idea a bit more.
14:27:53 <kc5tja> doggone is an English idiom meaning the same thing, but with much less emphasis, as "God Damn".
14:28:18 <kc5tja> It's pronounced "dog gone" of course.  :)
14:29:00 <kc5tja> In this context, it'd mean the software system as a whole, from the kernel on through to all running user applications, including that which was just loaded.
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14:29:13 <Speuler> g'day
14:29:56 <kc5tja> re
14:30:15 <Robert> Hi Speuler :)
14:30:46 <Speuler> ha the_rob
14:30:51 <Speuler> hi kc5tja
14:31:16 <Robert> kc5tja: Why would _all_ loaded application be recompiled?
14:32:51 <kc5tja> Not necessarily all the time.  But if you have a calendar program, a text editor, and a spreadsheet running (in that order), and you want to quit the text editor, you have to recompile the dictionary to close up the gap.
14:33:25 <kc5tja> Otherwise, you can quit the text editor and just leave it there, taking up space in the dictionary, but otherwise being unused.
14:33:46 <kc5tja> Robert: Do you have a Palm Pilot at all?
14:33:58 <Robert> No, I don't.
14:34:34 <Robert> I haven't actually though about recompiling the whole system to fill the gaps in the dictionary.
14:34:39 <kc5tja> I suppose I shouldn't use the term start and exit application.  
14:35:07 <kc5tja> I should use the term installation and uninstallation, since in any persistent system, that's really what you're doing.
14:35:22 <kc5tja> In PalmOS, when you "install" an application, you're really downloading the code and actually *running* it.
14:35:27 <Robert> As long as you can do that in say, less than a second, that could be nice.
14:35:30 <kc5tja> Even if you're not actually in that program, it's still technically running.
14:35:37 <kc5tja> Exactly.
14:35:45 <kc5tja> And Forth provides the potential to do that.
14:35:50 <kc5tja> And even 5 seconds is enough for me.
14:35:52 <Robert> Are programs run from a persistent memory?
14:35:55 <kc5tja> Yes.
14:36:03 <Robert> That's cool :)
14:36:15 <kc5tja> They're loaded into a global RAM area, relocated, and literally kicked off and running in the background.
14:36:24 <kc5tja> When you think about it, that's exactly what a Forth dictionary is like.
14:37:05 <kc5tja> When I run Pygmy Forth, I not only have the "shell" (the Forth commandline), but the block editor application right there with me.  When I type 1000 EDIT on the prompt, *boom* it's there.
14:37:27 <kc5tja> If I wanted to remove the editor, but keep the assembler, I would have to recompile the Forth kernel to do it.
14:37:44 <kc5tja> It doesn't take long, but it does take longer than a few seconds.  :)
14:38:21 <kc5tja> It's heavily I/O bound during recompilation, which is why it takes so long.  But it's still really quite fast.
14:38:24 <Robert> So you'd only use dynamic memory allocation for data in such a system?
14:38:32 <kc5tja> Yes.
14:39:06 <kc5tja> Well, I'm going to go now.  I have a D&D game to attend.
14:39:15 <Robert> Okay, see you.
14:39:20 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
14:39:28 <Speuler> kc5tja: assemblers are nice to compile into a detached vocab, one you can forget without throwing away what has been compiled after loading the assembler
14:39:42 <Speuler> enjoy
14:40:34 * Robert has the feeling that many Forth-related inventions aren't suited for 'big' systems like PCs.
14:41:41 <Speuler> from kc5s QTH i make up he's swedish too ?
14:41:49 <Robert> Are the palms using that persistent memory for temporary data, or just code/persistent data?
14:42:00 <Robert> QTH?
14:42:23 * Speuler went wireless :)
14:43:13 <Robert> Fancy.
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14:47:01 <Speuler> not suited, or "not specifically designed for" ?
14:47:56 <Robert> Well, "suited better for smaller devices".
14:48:10 <Robert> Or simplier systems.-
14:48:30 <Robert> I heard there were some forth based home computers in the early 80s.
14:50:12 <Speuler> true.
14:51:40 <Speuler> a zx80 or 81 based system, called "jupiter ace"
14:51:41 <Speuler> i got a machines with forth in rom from 1979
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14:53:24 <Robert> Cool!
14:53:37 <Robert> I wish I had one of those :)
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14:55:01 <Robert> I wish I had one of those :)
14:55:25 <Robert> How much RAM does it have?
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14:55:45 <Speuler1> flaky server...
14:56:14 <Speuler1> flaky server...
14:56:31 <Speuler> jesus
14:56:36 <Speuler> lag of 20 seconds
14:57:01 <Speuler> 48 kb
14:57:01 <Robert> :/
14:57:12 <Robert> Ah, that's quite a lot.
14:57:23 <Speuler> that was the small system.
14:57:23 <Robert> Compared to some other old machines :)
14:57:40 <Speuler> the bigger one from the same time had 448 kb :)
14:57:44 <Robert> There was an even bigger one?
14:57:49 <Robert> 448? In '79?
14:57:53 <Robert> How much did it cost?
14:57:55 <Speuler> yep
14:58:08 <Speuler> build/repaired from broken parts
14:58:23 <Robert> I see...
14:58:46 <Robert> I meant the 448kB model actually.
14:58:51 <Speuler> the base system (w/ 64 kb) would have been about 800 $
14:58:53 <Robert> Any ideas how much that costed as new?
14:59:04 <Robert> Oh, quite expensive.
14:59:09 <Speuler> the ram extension was pricey
14:59:23 <Speuler> 64 kbit chip :)
14:59:47 <Robert> What could you use 448kB of RAM to?
14:59:52 <Speuler> two mem extension cards, each one 3 banks are 64 kbyte
15:00:36 <Speuler> you could display "hi-res" graphics with lots of grey shades (or colours had i had a color monitor)
15:00:59 <Speuler> or ram-disk
15:01:07 <Robert> Oh, heh...
15:01:16 <Robert> What storage medias did you use otherwise?
15:01:24 <Speuler> could also swap in/out 16 kbyte blocks
15:01:37 <Speuler> on the small machines, mdcr. floppy on the big one
15:01:53 <Robert> 5.25"?
15:01:58 <Speuler> yes
15:02:00 <Robert> When did they introduce those drives?
15:02:31 <Speuler> was aboutthat time, a year earlier maybe. same systems were build with 8" drives too
15:03:35 <Speuler> mdcr on the forth-in-rom machines allowed you random access to 1k forth blocks :)
15:03:39 <Robert> Never even seen one of those drives actually.
15:03:47 <Robert> What's mdcr?
15:04:04 <Speuler> mini digital tape recorder
15:04:13 <Robert> Okay.
15:04:40 <Speuler> computer controlled wind/rewind/record/read
15:04:50 <Robert> Cool :)
15:04:53 <Speuler> only one button (eject)
15:05:12 <Speuler> winding is done with same speed as reading/writing
15:05:43 <Speuler> about 60 sec for 100 kbyte
15:06:31 <Robert> Heh... that's quite slow compared to today's hard drives :)
15:06:33 <Speuler> normally, they're used like "normal" tape drives, i.e write file at beginning, append more files to end of previous file
15:06:50 <Speuler> but with that forth, you formatted the tape into 1kb blocks
15:07:02 <Speuler> then you could position to any block, and read/write there
15:08:08 <Speuler> so 5 block  b/blk erase clear  update   flush    wrote block 5 back
15:08:46 <Speuler> yes, most of the time was used to position the tape
15:10:34 <Robert> I'd like to build my own little computer some time, a few kB of RAM, a few kB of persistent flash memory, and a neat little CPU :) Then I could write a forth system for it and I'd have a nice toy.
15:10:48 <Speuler> the tapes are the same size as dictaphone tapes
15:10:52 <Robert> Now my electronics skills are just about enough to make an LED flash.
15:11:13 <Speuler1> many microcontrollers are highly integrated
15:11:53 <Speuler> where do i show up quicker ?
15:12:15 <Robert> Yes, with enough storage/RAM in it, I could use one of those... but then I have to have some sort of I/O devices.
15:12:19 <Robert> No idea.
15:12:26 <Speuler1> where do i show up quicker ?
15:12:43 <Robert> 00:11 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from Speuler1: 4.505 seconds
15:12:44 <Robert> 00:11 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from Speuler: 17.952 seconds
15:12:46 <Robert> Wow.
15:12:48 <Speuler1> on the other i haven't got my own msg yet ...
15:12:50 <Robert> I'm impressed by your lag :)
15:13:18 <Robert> 00:12 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from Speuler: 1.355 seconds
15:13:19 <Robert> 00:12 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from Speuler1: 8.874 seconds
15:13:20 <Robert> Heh.
15:14:19 <Speuler> looks like it doesn't matter
15:14:45 <Speuler1> purely a question of chance
15:15:06 * Speuler1 typed first
15:15:25 <Speuler> no, not right
15:15:38 * Speuler did
15:18:18 --- join: Speuler2 (~l@p3E9B8EDA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
15:18:35 <Speuler2> same server u're on
15:18:47 <Speuler2> hmm
15:18:53 <Speuler2> doesn't help
15:20:03 <Speuler2> figure i got to limit network bandwidth of the gnutella client in the pub 50 meters down the road
15:23:44 <Speuler2> should be better now :)
15:26:18 <Speuler2> 1
15:26:18 <Speuler2> 2
15:26:19 <Speuler2> 3
15:26:29 <Speuler1> a
15:26:30 <Speuler2> c
15:26:32 <Speuler> b
15:26:43 <Speuler> looks like it
15:27:06 <Speuler1> i just SIGSTOP it for 10 secs, then CONT it for 1 sec :)
15:29:45 <Robert> How do you do that?
15:29:46 --- part: Speuler left #forth
15:30:32 <Speuler1> i logged in, made me superuser, then did:
15:31:01 <Speuler1> watch -n 0 " killall -CONT gtk-gnutella; sleep 1;killall -STOP gtk-gnutella;sleep 10"
15:31:29 <Robert> Ah, I though you meant your IRC client.
15:32:04 <Speuler1> no. program on a machine not far from here
15:32:16 <Robert> What kind of place are you on?
15:32:22 <Speuler1> there's ssh on too :)
15:32:30 <Speuler1> i'm in the bus now
15:32:35 <Robert> Bus?
15:32:39 <Speuler1> camper
15:32:50 --- nick: Speuler1 -> Speuler
15:33:01 <Speuler> ?msg nickserv identify jdsmdm
15:33:06 <Speuler> ahem
15:33:08 <futhin> ouch
15:33:10 <futhin> heh
15:33:24 <futhin> speuler: so how's your forth coding going these days?
15:33:40 <Speuler> did a bit of coding for a new project
15:33:55 <Speuler> but not a very challenging one
15:34:31 <Robert> futhin :)
15:34:42 <futhin> robert: ya?
15:35:04 <futhin> speuler:  have you got any cool forth code sources to share? ;)
15:35:06 <Robert> Hello :)
15:35:19 * futhin is thinking of asking kc5tja for a peek at his editor
15:35:42 <futhin> cause he binds all the keys to forth words and apparently that simplifies the editor 
15:36:18 <Speuler> probably
15:36:28 <futhin> how so?
15:36:35 <futhin> i don't quite "see" it..
15:36:38 <Robert> Heh, nice.
15:36:45 <futhin> i'm expecting a fullscreen editor
15:36:49 <Robert> Cool idea :)
15:36:55 <futhin> like edit.com
15:37:05 <futhin> not some lame command-line editor :P
15:37:08 * Robert puts it on his "TO STEAL" list.
15:37:32 * futhin wants a peek at robert's "to steal" list!
15:38:00 <Robert> Well, that's the only item ;)
15:38:16 <futhin> you lie!
15:38:35 <Robert> Just a little.
15:38:40 <futhin> speuler..
15:38:47 <Speuler> here
15:38:57 <Speuler> what sources 'd you like ?
15:39:30 <futhin> speuler: got any small & neat forth programs that are somewhat/actually useful? :)
15:39:48 <Speuler> like : helloworld ... ; ?
15:39:55 <futhin> that's not useful
15:39:57 <futhin> heh
15:40:07 <Speuler> a text mode windowing system ?
15:40:22 <futhin> yes, very useful
15:40:22 <Speuler> nice for an editor :)
15:40:30 <futhin> how big is that?
15:40:49 <Speuler> compiles to about 3 kb (including the mem manager)
15:40:55 <futhin> what forth impelementation do you use?
15:41:06 <Speuler> was made for cforth
15:41:13 <futhin> cforth is dos?
15:41:18 <Speuler> yes
15:41:21 <futhin> cool
15:41:29 <Speuler> t'is a compiler
15:41:32 <futhin> sure, i'd love a look at that windowing system of yours :)
15:41:46 <Speuler> source in - dos executable out
15:42:03 <Speuler> i should have a demo program, using that system, around
15:42:07 <Speuler> msdos
15:42:07 <futhin> yeah, i've seen you speak of cforth on here before 
15:42:23 * futhin is on a windoze comp
15:42:30 <futhin> so it's all good
15:44:13 <futhin> speuler: uh, just dcc it to me, if you don't mind sharing that windowing system..
15:46:01 <Speuler> can you run that ?
15:46:01 <Speuler> i'll hunt for it
15:46:38 <Speuler> got it
15:46:42 <futhin> yeah i probably can
15:49:40 <futhin> speuler: ? heh
15:50:28 <Speuler> there's :  http://62.163.41.25/forth/win*
15:50:28 <Speuler> there's :  win8 may be the most usable one
15:50:28 <Speuler> to compile, you need additional libs
15:50:29 <Speuler> and code needs massaging too
15:50:34 <Speuler> t'is from 97
15:52:23 <Speuler> brb ... 
15:52:34 <Speuler> press f1 for help
15:54:35 <Speuler> mouse works too
15:54:48 <futhin> okay thanks
15:57:10 <Speuler> windows.4th and windows.drv are in the same dir now
15:57:10 <Speuler> still missing things ...
15:57:16 <Speuler> mem manager, mouse interface and the like
16:00:43 <Speuler> actually, it's from 1993/94
16:01:16 <Speuler> just looked through the last changes :)
16:01:52 <futhin> so tell me, why do you think kc's editor would be simpler because of binding keys to forth words ?  
16:13:25 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login3.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
16:16:53 <futhin> hi tcn
16:17:06 <tcn> hey
16:18:53 <Robert> Hi :)
16:19:52 <Speuler> hi tcn
16:21:15 <tcn> what's up?
16:22:26 <Speuler2> clouds ?
16:23:46 <tcn> heh.. we had smoke from a forest fire in Quebec a few weeks ago.. you could smell it
16:24:21 <Robert> Where do you live?
16:24:26 <Robert> Hrm.
16:24:30 <tcn> Massachessetts
16:24:42 <Robert> Isn't that quite far from Quebec?
16:24:55 <tcn> yup
16:25:05 * Speuler hangs his nose out of the window
16:25:07 <Robert> :)
16:25:39 <tcn> well.. only 3 hours from the southern edge of Quebec.. but the fires were up north in the forests..
16:25:51 <Robert> Heh.
16:25:59 <Robert> Must have been a big fire.
16:26:21 <Robert> Had a forest fire here couple of years ago.
16:26:32 <tcn> where?
16:26:41 <Robert> It was close enough to see it from a nearby hill.
16:26:49 <Robert> Where I live, outside Stockholm.
16:28:43 <tcn> So do they go around trying to put them out like they do in the US?
16:30:41 <tcn> I understand that people used to set grass/brush fires every year, so dead wood didn't accumulate enough for a threatening fire..
16:30:55 <Robert> tcn: It was quite small, only a local fire.
16:31:12 <Robert> But I saw helicopters dumping water on it.
16:33:02 <Speuler> futhin: that's an old version of tomsrtbt
16:33:17 <Speuler> more recent one available on the net
16:33:19 <futhin> hm?  tomsrtbt did what?
16:33:39 <Speuler> single floppy linux
16:33:41 <futhin> oh nevermind
16:33:47 <tcn> oh, i've been meaning to set up a boot disk like that
16:33:49 <futhin> you just noticed that i checked that directory
16:34:14 <Speuler> just looked at the apache log
16:34:19 <futhin> yeah
16:35:09 <Speuler> 24.64.175.61 - - [28/Jul/2002:00:54:49 +0200] "GET /Minilinux/tomsrtbt-1.7.185/ HTTP/1.1" 403 237
16:36:10 <tcn> i was gonna use the 'kiss' shell, asmutils, stuff like that.. no libc, no bash
16:37:44 <futhin> where 'kiss' shell = a forth shell
16:37:49 <futhin> :P
16:39:04 <tcn> damnit, it's over 300k static linked
16:39:21 <Robert> What is?
16:39:27 <tcn> kiss is
16:40:08 <tcn> heh.. i like Lunix.. if i could just bring that over to the PC from the C64..
16:41:01 <Robert> Never tried Lunix...
16:41:05 <Robert> Why not make a port? ;)
16:41:23 <tcn> yup
16:41:32 <Robert> Can I try Lunix in an emulator easily?
16:41:41 <tcn> probably
16:43:02 <Robert> Hmm.. do you know a good C64 emulator for Linux?
16:43:17 <tcn> nah, but they're out there
16:43:48 <Robert> Okay...
16:43:56 <tcn> hmm, ec64
16:44:05 <Robert> I don't have any equipment to transfer Lunix to my C128 :((
16:44:10 <tcn> written 100% in x86 assembler
16:44:17 <tcn> damn
16:44:22 <Robert> I also lost my C64forth floppy :(
16:44:31 * Robert cries a bit.
16:48:43 <tcn> hmm, maybe I could get an old VT100 and hook it to a simple 6502 board :)
16:49:23 <Robert> VT100? A hardware terminal?
16:50:18 <tcn> yeah.. as opposed to a fancy video interface
16:51:02 <Robert> What kind of output does it have?
16:51:07 <tcn> http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/ - TINY TCP/IP stack
16:51:29 <tcn> it's 39k zipped!
16:51:53 <Robert> What is it written for?
16:53:32 <tcn> 6502, 8086, etc.
16:53:53 <tcn> actually it's C
16:54:03 <Robert> Oh.
16:54:12 * Robert checks.
16:55:46 <tcn> i'm still porting Small C over to the 80x86.. it's kinda complicated..
16:56:07 <Robert> Is it written in C?
16:56:14 <Robert> Or assembly?
16:58:30 <tcn> C
16:59:01 <tcn> i like SC.. it's not really typed.. you don't have to do casting..
17:00:37 <Robert> Cool.
17:05:32 <tcn> so.. everything I'm working on now is for both Linux and Retro or whatver..
17:06:04 <tcn> (since it won't be limited to just Forth now)
17:24:31 --- part: Speuler2 left #forth
17:25:25 <Speuler> reloading modules .. bye
17:25:37 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1")
17:29:10 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EDA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
17:29:26 <Speuler> survived :)
17:30:00 <Robert> :)
17:30:02 <Robert> Uhm..
17:30:10 <Robert> So, what kind of output does a VT100 use?
17:33:40 <tcn> it's just like writing linux console programs
17:33:52 <tcn> you connect it to the serial port
17:34:40 <tcn> and it's got escape codes to set colors, scroll text, etc..
17:38:32 <Robert> Well, what kind of output?
17:38:39 <Robert> A screen, a typewriter?
17:39:19 <tcn> a mono screen
17:39:44 <Robert> Nice... how much do one of these cost?
17:39:45 <tcn> the used to have lots of amber VTxxx terminals in libraries
17:39:51 <Robert> does*
17:40:20 <tcn> then took 'em out and replaced them with windows machines, card catalogs all on the WWW now..
17:40:40 <tcn> so i'd imagine they're free
17:41:54 <Robert> Hrm.
17:41:57 <Robert> Not over here ;)
17:42:17 <Robert> Well...
17:42:32 <Robert> I guess I could use my 486 laptop for that.
17:42:41 <Robert> Cheap and small.
17:42:47 <tcn> yeah. small is good :)
17:43:11 <tcn> I wonder if they're still gonna make 'e-ink' portables..
17:43:35 <Robert> What's that?
17:44:40 <tcn> it's a bipolar ink.. white on one side, black on the other, controllable w/ TFT's and needing no backlight..
17:45:52 <Robert> Oh, fancy... is it cheap?
17:48:00 <tcn> i don't know
17:48:06 <tcn> www.eink.com
17:48:35 <Robert> Would be nice if they constructed a really cheap display.
17:48:41 <tcn> they say 96 dpi resolution..
17:49:16 <Robert> Hmm.. what does a normal PC monitor have?
17:50:11 <tcn> same or less
17:52:02 <Robert> Oh, cool.
17:52:50 <Robert> Hmm... with a really cheap display, someone could make a cheap "Build your own computer" kit ;)
17:54:35 <tcn> i wish they'd hurry up and start selling eink/tft displays so i could play with them
17:57:17 <Robert> :)
18:00:48 <tcn> well, i'm gonna go play fiddle
18:01:04 <Robert> Bye :)
18:02:40 <tcn> see ya
18:02:42 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving")
18:06:04 --- join: Fractal (jbzvykhp@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth
18:06:10 <Robert> Hey.
18:06:25 <Fractal> Sup?
18:08:20 --- join: njd (melons@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
18:09:18 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-51.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
18:09:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:10:50 <Robert> Hey TBW :)
18:10:59 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert :)
18:11:11 <Robert> Is the Forth with you these days?
18:12:19 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...haven't use it for a long while hehe...been busy with things...and lately I get home worn out from the stressed job...
18:13:46 <TheBlueWizard> and you, Robert?
18:15:13 --- quit: njd ("fractal 1.0.9b60 - Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear! - http://fractalscript.com")
18:15:22 <Robert> Uhm... I'm a 16 year old student in a small swedish town, with summer vacation, which means I got plenty of time, and I'm spending a lot of it coding. Right now I'm coding on a forth-like VM for a project.
18:17:47 --- quit: Fractal_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:18:40 <TheBlueWizard> ah...lucky you!  I'm 37 years old working for fed govt in an IT shop (e-biz group)
18:19:04 <Robert> Thec
18:19:18 <Robert> The federal goverment has an IT shop?
18:20:02 <TheBlueWizard> what do you think where all those gov't websites are operated in? :)
18:20:32 * TheBlueWizard grins, pointing out the oh so very obvious.....
18:22:56 <Robert> Hmm..
18:23:13 <Robert> I though of "shop" as a Walmart-style thing ;)=
18:23:36 * Robert should better his basic english terminology.
18:24:31 * TheBlueWizard nodsnods, and forgot that Robert's first language isn't English....
18:25:01 <Robert> Heh, I'm reminded of it every single second.
18:25:33 <Robert> And since I'm a paranoid perfectionist, I'm always worrying about all the errors I know I'm making.
18:25:46 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....actually Englishg isn't my first language :)
18:26:10 * TheBlueWizard understands Robert's paranoia
18:26:43 * TheBlueWizard quietly munches a stray g...
18:26:53 <Robert> What is your first language?
18:27:01 <TheBlueWizard> ASL
18:27:11 <TheBlueWizard> American Sign Language
18:27:22 <Robert> Oh, deaf?
18:27:53 * Robert thinks of ASL as "Age/Sex/Location", and got confused for a while.
18:28:02 <TheBlueWizard> yup
18:28:24 <TheBlueWizard> I know...that's why I spelled out the ASL
18:28:41 <Robert> Well, I knew what it stands for.
18:28:53 <TheBlueWizard> heh
18:28:56 <Robert> The association to "Age/sex/location" was stronger, though ;)
18:29:20 <Robert> Is it hard in everyday life to be deaf?
18:29:23 <TheBlueWizard> on Internet, oh yeah! :)
18:30:23 <TheBlueWizard> there are pluses and minuses to be deaf....but I'd rather be deaf anyway :)
18:31:05 <Robert> I'll think of you next time my brother is playing Slipknot. ;)
18:31:22 <TheBlueWizard> slipknot?
18:32:11 <Robert> Yes, a very, very annoying band. Sounds like someone is screaming... and screaming... with drums and bass in the background.
18:32:19 <Robert> Makes you go insane in 30 seconds.
18:32:27 <Robert> After 60 seconds, I run away
18:32:39 <Robert> And leave my dear computers to their destiny *sob*
18:33:32 <TheBlueWizard> lol...I see...actually, I can hear loud noises...but not the quieter ones
18:33:49 <Robert> Can people scream stuff to you?
18:33:57 <Robert> And, can you speak?
18:34:35 <TheBlueWizard> um, well, they can, but they don't (unless they're nuts to start with...cuz I wouldn't understand what they say anyway :)
18:35:00 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, can speak....but I don't trust myself to be clear to others
18:35:52 <Robert> Hehe.
18:36:04 <Robert> So you can't understand spoken english?
18:36:21 <Robert> How do normal people communicate with you?
18:36:57 <futhin> he probably reads their lips just fine if they talk normally..
18:37:46 <TheBlueWizard> various ways:  paper-n-pen communication, email, IM, use sign language interpreter, get them to use ASL (the last one is always the hardest ;)
18:38:03 <futhin> hmm
18:38:16 <Robert> Hehe.
18:38:29 <Robert> I think IRC is one of the best ways to communicate.
18:40:21 <TheBlueWizard> I agree!  except that at work, no one knows much about IRC, and even if they do, they'd likely be forbidden from using it (long story...basically, many people are brainwashed, if you get the drift)
18:40:54 <futhin> that's natural with government employees
18:41:02 <futhin> lots of indoctrination
18:41:08 <Robert> Brainwashed in what way?
18:41:25 <TheBlueWizard> lmao....yup...wait...am I *not* natural?   ack! ;)
18:42:00 <futhin> robert: simple, rip out their brain, and wash it with some lemonade, chanting "government is god, government is a living organisation, government is _not_ specifically the rulers, blahblahblah"
18:42:01 <Robert> You're a freak created by mad scientists from Guatemala, what did you think?
18:42:13 <Robert> futhin: ;)
18:42:22 <Robert> futhin: Well, seriously, what did he mean?
18:42:31 <Robert> Brainwashed to not use IRC? o_O
18:42:40 <futhin> robert: there's natural brainwashing in society and in government
18:42:48 <TheBlueWizard> ok...we have tons of policies regarding the computers and software...and furthermore, we are restricted in what we are allowed to....some of them do make sense, actually....but the other areas....nope
18:42:50 <futhin> it's "natural" because the powermongers always do it
18:42:53 <Robert> Against IRC?
18:42:54 <futhin> history shows that
18:42:55 <futhin> no
18:42:59 <futhin> not against IRC specifically
18:43:04 <futhin> but against weird things, etc
18:43:09 <Robert> Well, I know that.
18:43:21 <Robert> But I wondered what IRC could do to the society.
18:43:36 <Robert> Of course the rich don't want you to like communists, but what would they have against IRC?
18:43:36 <futhin> robert: what kind of inflation does your country get btw?
18:43:44 <TheBlueWizard> and some people believe IRC harbors baddies (e.g. crackers and other odious creatures...)
18:44:01 <Robert> futhin: Inflation? As in the money's value dropping?
18:44:01 <futhin> no no no, the rich don't actually control the government, they actually get shafted by the government
18:44:19 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: partly true!
18:44:26 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Heh... paranoia + incompetence isn't good :)
18:44:46 <Robert> shafted = ?
18:44:51 <futhin> robert: yeah, inflation appears in all socialist countries (including usa) and is a strong sign that the politicians are CLUELESS when it comes to having a good economy
18:44:57 <futhin> shafted = fucked up the ass...  
18:45:08 <Robert> Hehe.
18:45:15 <futhin> it's not actually up the ass
18:45:22 <futhin> but it's just "screwed"
18:45:22 <Robert> I wouldn't call U.S. socialistic.
18:45:29 <Robert> More like.. "strange".
18:45:41 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: you're now starting to get the picture :)   you're only 16, so you got a lot to learn (this is not construed as a put down in any way)
18:45:57 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: I know that, sir. ;)
18:46:00 <futhin> it is socialistic to the extent that it steals money from the producers and redistributes it all sorts of welfare programs, regulatory agencies, etc
18:46:08 <Robert> Heh.
18:46:11 <futhin> and thereby hurts the economy
18:46:24 <Robert> futhin: Come to Europe and learn about our system.
18:46:31 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: are you an ultracapitalist?
18:46:34 <Robert> (That most of the countries have)
18:46:38 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Sounds like.
18:46:50 <Robert> Anyone calling U.S. socialistic must be ;)
18:47:06 <TheBlueWizard> hehe!
18:47:10 <futhin> thebluewizard: i just recently read this libertarian book called "restoring the american dream"
18:47:26 <futhin> he makes a very strong and convincing argument that everyone is ultimately getting shafted
18:48:00 <futhin> and the blame lies squarely in the government's natural tendencies & the fact it is so big  (it is stealing too much from the economy, etc etc)
18:48:22 <futhin> and spending too much of that money basically, on all sorts of programs
18:48:28 <futhin> there are lots of hidden taxation
18:48:30 <Robert> Hrm... when I was in Nevada, I was suprised by the low taxes.
18:48:40 <futhin> inflation is one of them
18:48:40 <TheBlueWizard> I have pondered the ideas expounded by the Liberterians, and I eventually realized it isn't the correct philosophy as a whole, so I discarded Liberterian :)
18:48:44 <Robert> I mean, no state income tax? No 25% tax on everything, like here?
18:49:06 <futhin> the government prints off money (little pieces of paper) to pay off part of its deficit
18:49:09 <futhin> this causes inflation
18:49:20 <futhin> because the amount of currency in circulation has gone up
18:49:35 <futhin> and everyone else's dollar has gone down in value
18:49:42 <futhin> they are essentially getting "taxed"
18:50:01 <futhin> thebluewizard: how is it not a good philosophy? what is wrong with the libertarian philosophy?
18:50:15 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: a few states in US have no sale tax (example: Alaska, not sure about Nevada, but prolly yes....and I believe there is one in Northeastern area)
18:50:22 <futhin> i have no idea how to have ZERO government, like hardcore libertarians advocate
18:50:23 <Robert> futhin: "Take care of yourself, and screw eveyone else."
18:50:34 <futhin> i think some form of government has to exist most likely
18:51:00 <futhin> robert: no, it is "take care of yourself, and don't infringe on other people's rights"
18:51:09 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Well, they complained about a few percent tax when we went to California.
18:51:49 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: what's wrong with it? because it lacks the constraints necessary for healthy operation....we could potentially see many Enrons, huge pollution, etc....not good at all
18:52:09 <futhin> yeah i agree about the pollution aspect
18:52:27 <Robert> How about monopolies?
18:52:37 <Robert> Or oligopols (sp?)
18:52:50 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: the "zero government" would translate to anarchy (an == without, archy == rule)
18:53:01 <futhin> robert: the U.S antitrust laws more often protect monopolies rather than discourage them :P
18:53:05 <Robert> If companies can do what they want, do you think they would lower the prizes?
18:53:53 <futhin> monopolies don't charge _exorbitant_ prices, because that would cause competitors to enter the field
18:54:12 <futhin> monopolies charge just low enough to discourage competitors from entering the field
18:54:15 <futhin> there is always competition
18:54:24 <futhin> even if it is hidden
18:54:35 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: the antitrust laws, if properly executed, should constrain the monopolies (I learned that it is not illegal to be a monopoloy per se, but how one wield the power of a monopoly...abusing it is illegal under Sharman Act)
18:54:39 <futhin> like the threat of companies who might enter a monopolies bills
18:54:41 <Robert> Well, why compete when you can cooperate?
18:54:46 <futhin> s/bills/fields
18:55:54 <futhin> robert: because cooperation doesn't have the incentives to cause products to be created cheaper, better, faster ?
18:56:31 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: you are assuming that anyone can have access to "materials", which isn't always the case....
18:56:49 <futhin> ???
18:57:20 <futhin> sure there might be some exceptions..
18:57:23 <futhin> :P
18:57:26 <Robert> futhin: Why would you give a product away cheaper?
18:57:42 <futhin> robert: cause of competition?
18:57:45 <Robert> If you and the other actors on the field agree on a prize, you will all make more money.
18:58:17 <futhin> sure, but all the actors rarely agree to price control
18:58:22 <TheBlueWizard> suppose I have an exclusive access to an oil field...then I could put a big fat price on it cuz a lot would need oil....
18:58:25 <futhin> like OPEC for example
18:59:04 <Robert> futhin: Here we have that situation in many fields.
18:59:17 <Robert> futhin: Food, petrol products etc.
18:59:31 <Robert> A few companies controlling the market.
18:59:45 <Robert> And agreeing to high prizes.
19:01:00 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: correct spelling is prices, not prizes....a prize is something you won (in a lottery, say)
19:01:35 <Robert> Oh.. thanks :)
19:02:12 <Robert> I can never tell when to use c and when to use z.
19:02:29 <Robert> For example, capitalize, capitalization, optimization, optimize etc.
19:02:41 <Robert> I use z all the time, heh.
19:02:41 --- join: futhin_ (thin@24.64.175.61) joined #forth
19:02:48 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:02:49 <Robert> Hi again.
19:02:59 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....those two letters and letter s are sometimes tricky to remember
19:03:05 <futhin_> ew, i bumped my comp and it froze
19:03:07 --- nick: futhin_ -> futhin
19:03:37 <TheBlueWizard> heh...sounds like your computer doesn't boogie well :D
19:03:43 <futhin> heh
19:03:52 <futhin> it normally boogies well i think
19:04:00 <futhin> i bump it with my leg every now and then
19:04:06 <futhin> but this time it froze, weird
19:04:13 <Robert> Hrm..
19:04:16 <TheBlueWizard> lol...yeah....
19:04:23 <Robert> Now I have to go to bed :'(
19:04:25 <Robert> Already 4.
19:04:30 <futhin> pfff
19:04:33 * Robert has a lot more work to do.
19:04:35 <TheBlueWizard> wow...ok...bye Robert :)
19:04:42 <futhin> robert: stay up until 8
19:04:45 <TheBlueWizard> more Forth coding, eh? :)
19:05:10 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Assembly, actually. And then some C. Then I'll develop a forth-like language and code some in it :)
19:05:25 <TheBlueWizard> oh...hmm...ok
19:05:35 <futhin> robert the dirty pervert
19:05:41 <futhin> messing with dirty languages
19:05:41 <futhin> :P
19:05:43 <TheBlueWizard> pervert?
19:05:47 <Robert> Heh.
19:05:57 <Robert> Just because I use C, I don't have to be a pervert.
19:05:58 <TheBlueWizard> ah...heh
19:06:03 <futhin> coding a forth-like language in C..?
19:06:13 <Robert> futhin: Coding a _compiler_ for it.
19:06:21 * futhin rips out his chest hair
19:06:24 <Robert> futhin: And a virtual machine for it in C / assembly.
19:06:33 * futhin sprinkles the chest hair on robert's birthday cake
19:06:54 <TheBlueWizard> so you are writing a C compiler that generates a VM code, right?
19:07:00 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Yes.
19:07:09 <Robert> An the VM is in C/assembly.
19:07:14 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: now you're a pervert!
19:07:20 <Robert> :)
19:07:29 <futhin> no! i'm a man, i got chest hair!
19:07:30 <TheBlueWizard> got it :)
19:07:35 <Robert> Good night, all pervers, deaf people, forth coders, and...humans?
19:07:39 * futhin scratches his chest hair and goes "arrrr!"
19:07:47 <futhin> humans?
19:07:52 * futhin screams and jumps in the air
19:07:57 <Robert> Well, nevermind.
19:08:02 <futhin> where aare the humans?!
19:08:06 <futhin> kill them quick!
19:08:32 <futhin> i thought we were all ETs talking on "IRC" ? ;P
19:08:33 * TheBlueWizard thinks Robert is human and futhin is a demented ape
19:08:43 * futhin eats bananas
19:08:55 * Robert sleeps.
19:08:57 <futhin> the potassium in them make ya smart!
19:09:11 <futhin> the lack of water cotent and some enzymes in them make ya fat!
19:09:19 <futhin> and it probably causes cancER!
19:09:41 * TheBlueWizard tucks a banana under Robert's pillow..."Hope it will make Robert smarter tomorrow!" :)
19:11:00 * Robert takes that as "Robert acted incredibly stupid today."
19:11:02 <Robert> ;)
19:11:11 * TheBlueWizard pulls out the banana, sprays antioxidant on it, tucks the banana back under Robert's pillow..."Now, no risk getting cancer from sleeping on it!" :)
19:11:48 <Robert> You people are strange+funny.
19:11:53 <futhin> robert: yes sir, eat lots of bananas and soon you'll code everything in forth and forth in forth and never forth in some other weird stuff
19:12:05 <Robert> strange @ funny @ + forther !
19:12:31 <futhin> strange @ funny @ lazy @ + + forther !
19:12:42 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye all!
19:13:40 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
19:16:19 <Robert> 1234567 all the children go to heaven.
19:19:11 <futhin> stop counting the little children jumping the fence and go to sleep ya pervert
19:33:27 --- quit: futhin ()
20:03:59 <Speuler> ik heb wel de intentie, maar is wel wat riskante buurt
20:04:07 <Speuler> oops
20:04:10 <Speuler> sorry
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20:42:01 --- quit: dsmith ("later..")
22:22:56 --- quit: Speuler (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
22:23:11 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EDA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.27