00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.07.19
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05:02:40 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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05:37:38 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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05:39:59 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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10:05:06 <cleverdra> did i440r come on last night?
10:05:31 <Robert> Hmmm
10:05:34 <Robert> Haven't seen him.
10:05:54 <Robert> I don't think he's been here the latest 23 hours.
10:06:17 <cleverdra> ah, OK.
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10:32:58 <Robert> Hi tathi :)
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10:51:45 <cleverdra> ah, but i440r replied to my email.
10:51:49 <cleverdra> I guess that I can leave now.
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11:11:00 <XeF4> whose mantra, exactly, is "frequent incremental releases"
11:11:27 <Robert> Our ;)
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11:32:29 <Herkamire> XeF4: it's way better than "good code is written code"
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11:33:33 <XeF4> Herk: but it's still on par with "disconnect power before servicing"
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11:40:48 <Herkamire> XeF4: hehe :)
11:41:37 <Herkamire> my lobbying for a topic change didn't do anything last time. perhaps we have to wait until futhin comes in and pester him.
11:43:08 <XeF4> does futhin have ops in here, then?
11:44:06 * cleverdra used to have ops, but doesn't remember the password.
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11:52:18 <Robert> More people should listen to "good code is written code" ;)
11:52:33 <Robert> Too much dreaming isn't good.
11:52:45 <cleverdra> Dreaming helps, though =)
11:53:34 <Robert> Well, in small doses it's good.
11:53:50 <Robert> Only dreams, but no code causes trouble.
11:55:46 <cleverdra> hm, I do a lot of dreaming before I program some things.  Sometimes I write code, and then stop writing it to continue dreaming.  I'm not suggesting this as a production strategy, but sometimes a really good design takes a lot of thought.
11:57:17 <Robert> Yes. I was refering to projects with only unimplemented ideas.
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12:03:54 <Herkamire> Robert: I agree that it is good to write code.
12:04:09 <Herkamire> Robert: but not that the code written is necesarily good.
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12:56:49 <tcn> hey kc
12:57:34 <kc5tja> re -- brb -- at work...
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17:33:22 <Robert> Hey.
17:35:06 <Robert> I440r: In IsForth, you're using several vocabularies, but how does one vocabulary differ from another?
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17:42:02 <I440r> what do you mean
17:42:06 <I440r> how does it differ
17:42:29 <I440r> do you understand how vocabularies work ?
17:42:33 <I440r> if not ill explain
17:42:35 <I440r> its very simple
17:42:37 <I440r> sort of hehe
17:43:06 <Robert> Thanks :)
17:43:11 <Robert> Well
17:43:21 <Robert> In my forth I had ONE dictionary pointer.
17:43:38 <I440r> ok first of all, as you know word headers are chained together\
17:43:47 <Robert> Why have more, how to switch etc.?
17:43:52 <I440r> a vocabulary in its simplest form could be
17:43:53 <Robert> Yeah.
17:44:00 <I440r> some_voc:
17:44:03 <I440r>  call dovoc
17:44:11 <I440r>  dd pointer_to_last_word_in_chain
17:44:28 <I440r> dovoc adds this vocabulary to context
17:44:32 <I440r> context is an array of vocabularies
17:44:41 <I440r> FIND only searches vocabularies taht are in context
17:44:59 <I440r> new definitions go into the vocabulary stored in teh variable "current"
17:45:12 <I440r> isforths vocabularies are slightly more complex
17:45:25 <I440r> each vocabulary is an array of "last word in chain"
17:45:33 <I440r> 64 chains per vocabulary to be exact
17:45:48 <I440r> when a word is created one has to decide which chain of the vocabulary to attach it to
17:46:01 <I440r> to do this you calculate a hash value for teh word name
17:46:24 <I440r> when you search for a word you also use the words hash to decide which chain to search
17:46:29 <I440r> this speeds up teh search alot
17:46:42 <Robert> Yeah.. but how are the different vocabs used?
17:46:42 <I440r> because, instead of one HUGE chain you have lots of little chains
17:46:59 <I440r> well. the primary vocabulary is "forth"
17:47:04 <I440r> you can also have "assembler"
17:47:20 <I440r> the assembler vocabulary is only used when you are compiling CODED definitions
17:47:39 <Robert> Why have more than one?
17:48:01 <Robert> And, when a word is looked up, are all vocabs searched?
17:51:43 <I440r> no. only the ones that are in context
17:51:55 <Robert> Uhm
17:51:58 <I440r> when you execute a vocabulary that vocab is added to the context stack
17:52:04 <Robert> What's the point of that?
17:52:21 <I440r> ok. theres a word in forth called "and"
17:52:26 <I440r> theres a word in assembler called "and"
17:52:40 <I440r> if both forth and assembler were always in context we would always get only one of them
17:52:53 <I440r> which one we want depends on "context" hehe
17:52:56 <Robert> Oh, I see.
17:53:05 <Robert> What's the context stack?
17:53:13 <I440r> the assembler "and" only has meaning when we are trying to assemble the "and" instruction
17:53:16 <Robert> How is it designed?
17:53:32 <I440r> an array of vocabs
17:54:19 <I440r> ok. "context manipulation words"
17:54:30 <I440r> only  - removes all words from context except ROOT
17:54:51 <I440r> when you create a new vocabulary the vocabulary word is compiled into the ROOT vocabulary
17:54:56 <I440r> vocabulary foo
17:55:10 <I440r> if you do that, the root vocabulary will gain a new word called foo
17:55:26 <I440r> when you execute foo the FOO vocabulary is added to context
17:55:29 <I440r> you often see
17:55:34 <I440r> only forth also definitions
17:55:41 <I440r> isforth doesnt use the word "also
17:55:48 <I440r> its a noop in isforth
17:56:02 <I440r> do u have isforth handy ?
17:56:05 <I440r> do
17:56:07 <I440r> ./isforth
17:56:08 <Robert> Yeah
17:56:11 <I440r> .context 
17:56:21 <I440r> dot context shows what voabs are in context
17:56:30 <I440r> .vocabs says what vocabularies are defined
17:56:35 <I440r> so if you do
17:56:39 <I440r> only .context
17:56:41 <I440r> you will get
17:56:43 <I440r> ROOT
17:56:46 <I440r> nothing else
17:56:50 <I440r> only forth .context
17:57:00 <I440r> ROOT FORTH  <-- top of context stack is to the right
17:57:21 <I440r> so. if you now say "foo" forth will search the FORTH vocabulary and if foo is not found it will search the root vocabulary
17:57:27 <I440r> now do
17:57:39 <I440r> only forth compiler terminal .context
17:57:56 <I440r> forth compiler terminal
17:58:00 <I440r> now do.... forth
17:58:08 <I440r> you wont get
17:58:13 <I440r> forth compiler terminal forth
17:58:17 <I440r> you wont have forth in there twice
17:58:31 <I440r> what happens is "forth" gets pulled up to the top of the context stack so you get
17:58:39 <I440r> compiler terminal forth   <-- top
17:59:05 <I440r> thats different to other forths
17:59:06 <I440r> if you do
17:59:14 <I440r> only forth also also also also also
17:59:15 <I440r> you get
17:59:21 <I440r> root forth forth forth forth forth 
17:59:25 <I440r> which is DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:59:41 <I440r> the word "also" is a context stack dup 
17:59:54 <I440r> the word previous is a context stack drop
18:00:08 <I440r> theres also a realy nice word called "seal"
18:00:27 <I440r> you can create a "application" vocab and have IT be the only one in context
18:00:42 <I440r> only application root previous
18:00:46 <I440r> that would do the same thing
18:00:53 <I440r> understand that ?
18:01:07 <Robert> If I do that, can I use other vocab's words?
18:01:16 <I440r> no
18:01:28 <I440r> you are SEALED into ONE vocabulary
18:01:40 <I440r> however. isforth allows you to seal into MULTIPLE vocabularies
18:01:57 <I440r> only voc1 voc2 root previous
18:02:19 <I440r> voc1 and voc2 words can still CALL words in teh other vocabularies but you cannot execute them interactivly
18:02:24 <Robert> onlt root previous
18:02:35 <Robert> Now. context doesn't print anything.
18:02:48 <I440r> if you do that you have NO vocabularies in context hehe
18:02:58 <Robert> Oh, hehe
18:02:59 <I440r> you just locked yourself out of ALL vocabularies hehe
18:03:12 <I440r> actually. doing that is the same as doing
18:03:16 <I440r> only previous
18:03:39 <I440r> and the sources (isforth/forthsrc/vocabs.f) tells you not to do that heh
18:04:36 <Robert> :D
18:04:45 <Robert> dup gave me a segfault then :)
18:05:17 <I440r> no. the search for dup did
18:05:20 <I440r> hehe
18:05:50 <Robert> Well, I was thinking about writing a little Forth system.
18:05:59 <I440r> :)
18:05:59 <Robert> Non-bloatware ;)
18:06:15 <Robert> So, figured I had to learn a little bit more about the internals.
18:06:29 <Robert> Guess I'll "borrow" significant parts from IsForth.
18:06:59 <Robert> But that's what the GPL family licenses are for, isn't it? ;)
18:07:20 <I440r> thats what isforth is for, so lame.... erm beginners can learn forth
18:07:27 <I440r> hehe
18:08:02 <Robert> BAH!
18:08:09 * Robert hides in his lamer corner.
18:08:33 <I440r> heh
18:08:37 <I440r> your not a lamer
18:08:53 <I440r> i dont equate "not knowing YET" with "dumbass" like SOME people on irc doe
18:08:54 <I440r> do
18:09:16 <Robert> That's good  :)
18:09:23 <Robert> I try to do the same.
18:09:44 <Robert> A lot of people ARE dumbasses, though :/
18:09:57 <Robert> Asking stupid questions and not caring for the answers.
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18:11:15 <I440r> :)
18:11:19 <I440r> tcn!
18:11:20 <I440r> boo :)
18:11:21 <tcn> hey
18:11:21 <Robert> Hey tcn 
18:11:28 <I440r> whers my assembler ;)
18:11:29 <I440r> heh
18:11:32 <Robert> IsForth asembler done yet?
18:11:36 <tcn> hahaha
18:11:39 <Robert> assembler*
18:12:07 <I440r> were ganging up on you -
18:12:10 <I440r> tag team :)
18:12:29 <I440r> we should all make him feel GUILTY for not having finished it yet :P
18:12:35 <Robert> Yeah.
18:12:50 <Robert> He doesn't care enough about us :(
18:13:00 <I440r> *sniff*
18:13:09 <I440r> tcn - you messed with the latest isforth yet ?
18:13:18 <I440r> im almost ready to release 1.09b
18:13:28 <Robert> Cool, what's new in it?
18:13:56 <I440r> allocate, deallocate
18:14:01 <I440r> modified structs a little
18:14:02 <Robert> Wow :)
18:14:05 <tcn> might need that.
18:14:21 <I440r> want to get dns queries working and add my sockets stuff
18:14:39 <Robert> DNS still not working
18:14:41 <Robert> ?
18:14:42 <tcn> hey, what modutils do I need for linux 2.2.20?
18:15:34 <I440r> rob i havent touched teh sockets stuff in a while
18:15:46 <I440r> the alloc/dealloc was needed anyway :)
18:15:51 <Robert> Yeah.
18:16:13 <Robert> Now I can really start using Forth ;)
18:17:30 <I440r> oh - and it will have the new windowing code in it
18:17:40 <I440r> still havent coded pull down menus tho
18:18:15 <Robert> Editor+
18:18:16 <Robert> ?
18:18:30 <I440r> ?
18:18:42 <Robert> Do you have any editor?
18:18:54 <Robert> I use vi now, but it's not written in Forth ;)
18:19:56 <I440r> i use joe
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18:20:11 <I440r> i think isforth will look at the $EDITOR env var and shell out to it
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18:20:25 <I440r> might one day write a SANE editor for unix
18:20:26 * tcn is writing an editor
18:21:17 <Robert> tcn: Nice :)
18:21:55 <Robert> Then you have 2 things to feel guilty about.
18:21:56 <I440r> bah - it wont be sane. he isnt sane ennuff himself :P
18:22:08 <Robert> ;)
18:22:15 * tcn nods
18:22:38 <tcn> to prove your point, it has tables & hyperlinks
18:23:11 <I440r> lol
18:23:47 <tcn> but i want it to do code too
18:24:31 <tcn> ^L...^@ is a link, ^T...^@ is a table.. :)
18:24:51 <tcn> so I could embed that in the code..
18:25:08 <Robert> ^@ = Ctrl-2 ?
18:25:12 <tcn> null
18:25:30 <Robert> Hmm
18:25:50 <I440r> ^@ is a zero
18:25:57 <I440r> 0x00
18:26:18 <I440r> joe lets you embed any character into your source
18:26:22 <Robert> Well, on a keyboard, how to make that?
18:26:25 <I440r> escape ` 0x00
18:26:30 <I440r> embedds a zero char into the source file heh
18:27:29 <tcn> yea, i use joe right now :)
18:27:39 <tcn> `@ will do it
18:28:41 <tcn> anyway, the tables work nice.. i've got alternative background colors so you can tell the rows apart..
18:28:50 <tcn> i mean, alternating
18:29:52 <I440r> cool :)
18:30:01 <I440r> i bet its not written in isforth tho :P
18:30:01 <I440r> bleh
18:30:10 <tcn> C
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18:35:43 <tcn> god damn it, they don't make it easy to find the right modutils version..
18:36:15 <tcn> fucking linux piece of shit :)
18:37:57 <I440r> lol
18:38:05 <I440r> just install debian :P
18:39:22 <tcn> no way.. the one i put together works great
18:40:31 <tcn> nice and organized.. nothing more than 2 directories deep..
18:40:47 <tcn> lynxcgi manpages.
18:40:55 <I440r> woo hoo debian 3.0 released :)
18:45:16 <tcn> like hell i'm gonna run that
18:45:46 <tcn> i'm gonna stick with the 2.2 kernel until I write my own OS :)
18:46:09 <I440r> lol
18:48:40 <tcn> i downloaded "linux-lite", haven't looked at it yet
18:49:34 <I440r> i got a contract, ive been doing alot of RTFM here
18:51:23 <tcn> cool
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19:02:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:02:36 <TheBlueWizard> and hiya I440r in particular :)
19:03:17 <I440r> hehe
19:03:20 <I440r> i got a contract - did i tell you ?
19:04:33 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, you told me :)   did you get another contract that lets you work at home?
19:04:55 <I440r> yes but i work on site next month
19:05:09 <I440r> ive gotta do some reverse engineering now too :)
19:05:21 <I440r> soon as i get teh hardware i have to RE teh roms
19:06:21 <TheBlueWizard> cool, and ouch....I have some experience with RE (pointing to RE'ing Apple ][ ROMs and C-64 ROMs, among few others)
19:08:02 <I440r> hehe i have a very very useful tool here tho
19:08:11 <I440r> the interactive disasembler PRO
19:08:18 <I440r> i paid for it hehe
19:08:20 <I440r> and this is just 8051 :)
19:08:36 <TheBlueWizard> ah...IDA Pro....never played with it....
19:09:18 <I440r> its only the best reverse engineering tool ever devised
19:09:22 <I440r> literally
19:10:26 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...and I wish there is a Free Software version of that!   When I'm done with my two other projects, I hope I will develop 6502 interactive disassembler....
19:11:05 <I440r> im gona do an 8051 one
19:11:24 <I440r> i had it started already but i abandoned it, i got the disassebmbler part of it ported already hehe
19:11:33 <I440r> its going to be able to execute teh code too tho
19:12:07 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...you already have a 8051 disassembler...it'd be cool to see an interactive version...but it's a lot of work....by the way, is 1.09b out?
19:12:53 <I440r> not yet, got a cpl of things i want to finish first
19:13:32 * TheBlueWizard nods....good things to close the book on project XYZ, as always
19:14:29 <I440r> i have a few things left hanging heh
19:15:50 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:26:01 <TheBlueWizard> now that woody is out, I plan to ask my friend in upstate to burn a dozen CDs for me :)  (if he can do that...since he is working as a contractor and lives in another city)
19:26:44 <I440r> heh
19:27:27 <TheBlueWizard> heh re: your quip on #debian re: X 4.1
19:27:56 <I440r> heh
19:28:25 <I440r> somenbody musta upgraded it while i wasnt looking :P
19:28:38 <I440r> he
19:28:45 <TheBlueWizard> lol...yeah right!
19:29:48 <Soap`> The only thing that's changed is that Woody is called stable now, right?
19:30:20 <TheBlueWizard> Soap`: woody is released!
19:30:33 <TheBlueWizard> and yes, it is now stable
19:33:03 <Soap`> Groovy.
19:33:20 <TheBlueWizard> absolutely!
19:34:52 <TheBlueWizard> now...CD burning....hehe....since I have slow connection, have to have someone burn it for me, since I wanna install it on as many roaches^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcomputers as possible :)
19:35:26 <tcn> wasn't woody supposed to be done 3 years ago?
19:35:26 <I440r> hehe
19:36:25 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha ha....potato was release 2 and a half years ago....tcn, you better wake up and read some more! :)
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19:38:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Fare
19:38:35 <I440r> hi fare
19:40:56 <tcn> hey fare, what's new?
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19:47:56 <TheBlueWizard> hiya dsmith
19:48:31 <dsmith> evnin
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20:37:38 <TheBlueWizard> hiya njd
20:38:40 <njd> hii
20:38:46 <I440r> njd 
20:38:50 <TheBlueWizard> whassup?
20:39:14 <njd> updating debian to 3.0
20:39:15 <I440r> how much memory do you have installed
20:39:17 <njd> what about u
20:39:26 <njd> I440r who u talking too
20:39:34 <I440r> you
20:39:42 <njd> 228mb
20:40:08 <TheBlueWizard> me...vegging out, surfing the Net, etc....need to veg out after today's rather stressful and somewhat disastrous day
20:40:13 <I440r> im not sure if a swap file over 64 meg will all be used
20:40:26 <I440r> but you can have multiple swap partitions
20:40:40 <njd> well
20:40:47 <njd> i dunno how big my swap is
20:41:18 <njd> oi i440r dist-upgrade
20:41:21 <njd> isnt upgrading
20:41:22 <njd> heh
20:41:35 <I440r> dist-upgrade from woody to woody ?
20:41:36 <I440r> lol
20:41:38 <njd> no
20:41:41 <njd> im on unstable
20:41:46 <njd> i changed my sources.list
20:41:54 <njd> apt-get update
20:42:01 <njd> and it wont do the next part
20:42:11 <TheBlueWizard> you can't downgrade
20:42:27 <njd> eh
20:42:32 <njd> its all your fault i440r
20:42:56 <njd> ill do an upgrade then
20:43:08 <njd> bleh does the same
20:43:08 <njd> oh well
20:43:35 <TheBlueWizard> quick fix I berlieve is to have it explicityly point to sarge....but check with some who *knows* things first!
20:44:04 <TheBlueWizard> I am assuming sarge is same as sid at this time
20:44:14 <TheBlueWizard> I could be totally wrong
20:46:55 --- quit: njd ("brb")
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20:49:00 <njd> my god this wmaker theme is terrible
20:54:56 --- nick: Fare -> Fare3153
20:56:40 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:04:00 --- join: I440r (mark4@1Cust96.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
21:04:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r the great IsForth coder! ;)
21:05:06 <I440r> not so great or i would have an assembler by now :P
21:05:28 <TheBlueWizard> lol....got it...still stuck on it?
21:08:04 <I440r> not yes but..... HELL yes!
21:08:25 <TheBlueWizard> lol
21:09:25 <TheBlueWizard> I know you want what amount to a NASM clone (e.g. normal assembler syntax, labels, etc, not Forth style syntax)
21:10:47 <I440r> forth syntax sux big time except for forth
21:10:50 <I440r> for assembler it sux
21:13:44 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....there are tradeoffs involved....for short snippets I think Forth syntax is quite fine for assembly...but for long code section of assembly language, Forth syntax can drive many batty :)
21:18:30 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:21:32 --- quit: Fare3153 (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:24:17 <njd> junk@njd:~/bubblemon-dockapp-1.4$ make
21:24:17 <njd> gcc -O3 -ansi -Wall `gtk-config --cflags` -DENABLE_DUCK -DENABLE_CPU -DENABLE_MEMSCREEN    -c -o bubblemon.o bubblemon.c
21:24:17 <njd> sh: gtk-config: command not found
21:24:21 <njd> what .deb is gtk-config in ?
21:26:03 <TheBlueWizard> beats me....I currently only run console Debian machine....when I get a woody CD set, I plan to build a X windows machine
21:26:22 * TheBlueWizard has a lot to learn :)
21:27:14 <njd> console :o
21:28:51 <TheBlueWizard> yep
21:29:24 <TheBlueWizard> I installed slink straight off the Net 2 and a half years ago
21:30:14 <njd> slink?
21:30:49 <TheBlueWizard> the one before potato
21:33:13 <njd> ohh
21:33:13 <njd> ok
21:41:40 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
21:41:59 <njd> later
21:42:13 <TheBlueWizard> bye njd
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23:37:39 --- quit: njd ("Client Exiting")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.19