00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.07.15 00:44:43 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:44:43 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:44:43 --- quit: njd (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:45:35 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 00:45:35 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:45:35 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:32:11 --- quit: njd (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: Fractal (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:32:11 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:36:06 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:36:06 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk4.sat.net) joined #forth 01:36:06 --- join: Fractal (toet@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:36:06 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h137n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 01:36:06 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 01:36:09 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:36:09 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 01:50:28 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:50:28 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:50:39 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:50:39 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:02:45 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:02:45 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:03:05 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:03:05 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:21:35 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:21:35 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:22:41 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:22:41 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:22:46 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:22:46 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:26:37 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:26:37 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:26:37 --- quit: Fractal (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:26:37 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:27:52 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:27:52 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:29:27 --- quit: Soap` () 02:35:13 --- quit: n_ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:37:06 --- log: started forth/02.07.15 02:37:06 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 02:37:06 --- topic: 'Our mantra: Frequent incremental releases | Forth OS - the ultimate coder's dream | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' 02:37:06 --- topic: set by futhin on [Sat Jul 06 20:08:37 2002] 02:37:06 --- names: list (clog Soap` Etaoin rob_ert Fractal @ChanServ) 05:11:22 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@12.15.7.30) joined #forth 06:06:53 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool36-125.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:33:18 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:48:36 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:50:47 --- quit: Herkamire (Client Quit) 08:01:03 --- join: XeF4 (nymdtoea@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:04:50 is there some reasonably affordable video card for PC that does >= 8 bitplanes? 08:05:49 um 08:05:51 which are you using now? 08:06:02 3dlabs Oxygen 3d cards are capable of that 08:07:12 right now, I'm using plainvga on the PC (ick) and AGA on Amiga 08:07:38 Oxygen 3d support real bitplanar modes? 08:14:40 hmz.. I don't see any mention of planar modes on the Oxygen pages.. 08:20:21 amiga...? 08:20:23 .. 08:23:22 yes, all Amiga (excluding add-on boards) video uses bitplane addressing 08:27:35 and sadly, I lack the skills (and equipment) to build an AGA-on-PCI/AGP board 08:38:17 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 09:52:21 --- join: I440r (~mark4@67.241.42.30) joined #forth 09:52:32 Hey. 09:52:40 I'll test the stuff I added to IsForth. 09:52:48 Then I'll send it over... (It's not alot) 09:56:29 --- quit: I440r (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:29 --- quit: dsmith (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:30 --- quit: Soap` (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:30 --- quit: ChanServ (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:30 --- quit: n_ (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:31 --- quit: Fractal (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:31 --- quit: cleverdra (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:56:31 --- quit: rob_ert (vinge.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:57:19 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: I440r (~mark4@67.241.42.30) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: n_ (deza@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool36-125.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@12.15.7.30) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202.0.42.22) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: Fractal (toet@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h137n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 09:57:19 --- mode: vinge.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 09:57:25 argh dont use nfs 09:57:25 use samba 09:57:25 Bah. 09:57:25 hello clog :) 09:57:36 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:58:51 Hi Herkamire :) 10:02:06 hi :) 10:02:11 Hrm. 10:02:14 So... 10:02:19 :) 10:02:31 I need root on this computer able to access my home dir. 10:02:37 Me == user "robert" 10:02:46 It's mounted via NFS. 10:02:49 Any ideas? 10:03:11 don't use nfs, especially for your home dir 10:03:21 Bah. 10:03:23 you cant access it unless you have access 10:03:31 herk thats what i said 10:03:37 Bah :-/ 10:03:44 Why didn't you tell me earlier :P 10:03:46 Well... 10:03:47 Hrm. 10:04:00 It's still quite useful. 10:04:28 nfs for your home dir sounds bloody stupid if you ask me 10:04:39 I'd like to be able to login to my computer even if the network is down. 10:04:55 Well, it's never down :) 10:05:39 I'm not interested in the slowdown either 10:05:51 Well... 10mbit is quite fast. 10:06:05 And I'm storing mp3s and other big files local. 10:06:19 not bad for some stuff. but 10mbit is not nearly as fast as my HD 10:06:31 Of course not. 10:06:34 But I don't need more. 10:06:44 Not for the code/text documents I have there. 10:07:07 I use CVS or svn for those 10:07:18 just use samba 10:07:22 swat makes it easy 10:07:24 scp and rsync come in handy too 10:07:34 rsync rox! 10:07:41 damn straight :) 10:07:42 Hm. 10:07:50 Samba.... 10:07:55 svn is pretty damn cool too :) 10:08:07 Any ideas how to set up a samba server on NetBSD? 10:08:23 nope 10:08:26 erm yea 10:08:29 install linux :) 10:08:38 Heh. 10:08:46 Nah :P 10:08:53 Oh, well... 10:08:58 have you got isforth working in netbsd ? 10:09:05 Haven't tried :) 10:09:12 heh 10:09:13 ok 10:09:31 Grr... this is annoying. 10:09:44 root should have better permissions than this. 10:10:07 why do you need filesharing? 10:10:40 I have a bunch of computers (of which I use 2 all the time). 10:10:50 I often work on the same projects from both. 10:11:02 use cvs or svn 10:11:14 What are they for? 10:11:15 ugh cvs sucks 10:11:25 use prcs :P 10:11:47 rob_ert: they track all your changes. and you can update an old copy of your project 10:11:54 rob_ert: version controll 10:12:09 whats prcs? 10:12:13 Eh. 10:12:22 Nah, I don't want to use CVS all the time :) 10:12:25 svn is much better than cvs, but it's still pre-beta 10:12:36 Guess I should move some software to a local dir. 10:13:25 rob_ert: cvs is Easy. you just do: cvs ci -m "updated networking code to support gzip" 10:13:29 when you're done coding. 10:13:34 and: cvs up 10:13:36 before you start 10:13:56 100mbit nfs-mounted home dir is quite fast 10:14:18 i see no noticeable slowdown with an nfs mounted /home over a switched 100mbit network 10:14:21 Herkamire: Still not feeling like doing that... 10:15:05 rob_ert: the advantage is, that you can pull out a copy of your project the way it was anytime in the past. 10:15:27 I was scared of CVS for quite a while. now that I've tried it and learned how it works, I wouldn't do a programming project without it. 10:15:41 Hehe. 10:15:44 (or some other version control) I prefer svn 10:15:49 Well, I'll go down to the lake. 10:15:57 After that I'll play more. 10:16:00 See you. 10:16:08 i gtg to the BMV 10:16:40 n_: that's neat. 10:16:49 n_: I don't have a switch though :) 10:17:30 and I don't like the idea of people bogging down the network just fiddling with files in their home dir. 10:20:34 they're cheap as hell now 10:20:44 a semi-decent 100mbit 8port switch goes for like $70 10:20:47 brand new 10:23:28 damn 10:26:35 ? 11:43:07 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 12:20:27 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@68.7.162.51) joined #forth 12:58:12 --- join: kc5tja_ (~kc5tja@ip68-7-162-51.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 12:58:13 --- quit: kc5tja (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:18:15 --- join: kc5tja__ (~kc5tja@ip68-7-162-51.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 13:20:41 --- quit: kc5tja_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:39:35 --- quit: kc5tja__ ("[x]chat") 13:49:13 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:49:43 i440r: yo yo yo yo yo yo yo 13:49:58 how's it hanging dsmith? 13:52:16 --- nick: n_ -> n_food 13:55:11 futhin: hmph 13:55:30 it's not? 13:56:33 futh :) 13:58:12 afk... 13:58:31 i440r noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 13:58:53 i440r: your time has come, your debt must be repaid or else i will destroy all the muds in the world!!! 13:58:56 :P 13:59:18 (i'm a tad bored here, if ppl start talking gibberish i'll be sooo happy 13:59:23 ) 13:59:43 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login26.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 14:00:28 yay! tcn is here! i'm saved! 14:01:20 hello tcn.. 14:02:17 hey 14:03:49 are you sad? frustrated? coding an os in another language? 14:03:55 heh 14:04:17 * futhin also feels sad and frustrated at times and then declares it will be different in the future! 14:05:59 * dsmith is grumpy because he has been trying to get Lotus Notes to work under crossover on Linux. 14:07:12 --- join: tcn2 (tcn@tc4-login26.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 14:07:12 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:07:45 i like linux the way i have it now.. base system fits on 2-3 floppies, bzipped 14:08:01 tcn! 14:08:26 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-7-162-51.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 14:08:32 2-3 floppies, 3 megs of ram, huge, waste of space :P 14:12:57 gcc, bash, libc.. those are the big hogs 14:13:14 Exokernel!!! ;D 14:13:22 Forth + Exokernel == my new ideal system. 14:14:50 that would be decent.. with a forth "boot monitor"? 14:15:36 Well, I was thinking of an exokernel written in Forth, plus application Forth environments. This would allow low-level protection of resources, while still granting individual applications hardware (or near hardware) level access to system features. 14:18:59 It's a match made in heaven from my point of view, who views operating systems as a necessary evil to running multiple applications concurrently and safely. 14:19:20 hm, maybe that's what I should be doing instead of trying to simplify unix.. it's what I was doing last time I worked on Retro 14:20:13 * kc5tja is still researching moving Dolphin into the exokernel architecture. Lots of questions need answering first, but fortunately, the answers usually aren't that hard to find. 14:20:56 so what do you put in the exokernel? fs, memory manager, task switching..? but leave full protection up to the sub-os's? 14:21:10 Filesystem doesn't go into the exokernel. 14:21:18 Memory management is left to the applications. 14:21:27 Primitive task switching does sit in the exokernel though. 14:21:34 (and I emphasize primitive) 14:21:49 Basically an exokernel is responsible for allocation, protection of, and deallocation of resources. 14:22:06 Actually managing those resources is the domain of the application. 14:22:11 I think it does need Primitive fs/mm 14:22:56 Well, I'm reading up on Aegis and Xok, and they do have a primitive (but *DAMN* powerful) filesystem implemented. In my system, I wouldn't do that, since it'd break too many of my design goals (including the ability to use any arbitrary filesystem). 14:23:21 They also have built-in protection of network resources, something I also will not have (since my laptop doesn't have any networking capability at all). 14:23:41 An exokernel is necessarily hardware specific. 14:24:16 What if the "top" fs only offers large contiguous chunks? 14:24:27 Explain? 14:25:31 in Retro 4 the bootloader had a simple fs.. 1 directory block, no subdirectories, and files had to be contiguous.. the sub-OS's can use these however they want 14:26:03 That actually is more sophisticated than what is in Aegis and Xok. 14:26:15 Aegis's exodisk system is actually astonishingly similar to my DNFS system. 14:27:29 do you know the Aegis address? and Xok, that's MIT's exokernel prototype, right? 14:27:36 However, it's fundamentally incompatible with competing filesystems. For example, you cannot mount a native FAT disk if the exokernel assumes everything will be expressed in terms of its primitive storage system. 14:28:04 I just google for them. They don't really have a lot of Aegis information on their site anymore; it's mainly Xok now-a-days. 14:28:56 Aegis missile cruisers.. Aegis hay-bailers.. Aegis bikes.. :) 14:30:15 google aegis exokernel 14:30:24 got something.. 14:31:32 tcn2: i personally think you should continue along the vien of retro or something.. starting from scratch rather than trying to fix up linux.. but it really depends on a number of factors: the scope of the project, the gamble of whether linux is going to stay around or be replaced by a superior os (which i am hoping for), etc 14:32:46 i'm using linux now because I need to just write some programs, get back in practice with application programming :) 14:33:51 I think I'm going to develop Dolphin using an extreme programming approach. 14:34:09 First, develop its first application to run on bare bones hardware. That means it runs in ring-0, with no operating system at all. 14:34:13 Not even an exokernel. 14:34:30 Then, write another application for "Dolphin", in the same manner, that does vaguely similar things. 14:34:56 For example, if the first application I write is a text editor, the second could be a simple commandline shell or something. 14:35:52 Now that I have two working samples of code, that's when I'd write a primitive exokernel to be able to run these programs side by side. But the condition is, the application programs must be changed very, very minimally -- that is, they must retain as much low-level access as possible. 14:36:04 i found it's more effective to write applications under a fully functional OS, so they're ready to go when you have dolphin/retro/etc running.. 14:36:20 I'm seriously thinking of writing a C compiler 14:36:28 As I write more and more applications, just repeat the factorization process until I eventually end up with an exokernel, the Dolphin libOS, and the set of applications. 14:37:19 Well, here's another aspect of exokernels -- you can write Dolphin/retro applications under Linux, because as far as the applications are concerned, they ARE running under the exokernel. 14:37:31 (remember the core of the application's "operating system" is linked in as a shared library!) 14:37:54 The "exokernel" can just be a root-level server, talking to individual applications over a well-known socket connection, for example. 14:38:21 so it's a shared address space, instead of syscalls 14:38:24 --- join: XeF4 (ihmmwrjt@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 14:38:35 Yes for the application, no for the exokernel. 14:38:43 And each application runs in its own address space. 14:38:51 Just like Unix. 14:39:15 (unless you WANT a shared address space system, which the exokernel can certainly give you the freedom to implement if you want) 14:41:10 the exokernel doesn't enforce any protection, right? if you don't trust something you have to wrap it in some kind of OS.. "jail" it 14:42:22 Umm...no. 14:42:31 The whole purpose of the exokernel is to offer nothing but raw protection. 14:42:40 The exokernel doesn't trust your application any more than it'd trust mine. 14:43:39 But it's protecting resources at a much smaller grain of detail than a normal operating system would. 14:43:58 them I'm suggesting that exokernel still isn't lean enough :) 14:44:01 For example, it would protect CPU time by allocating it into time slices, which applications must allocate and deallocate manually. 14:44:43 Then, once allocated, the application is responsible for the scheduling of it. 14:44:51 It's extremely lean. 14:45:07 How would your system prevent me from trashing your memory space or files? 14:45:30 that would be another layer 14:45:37 That would be another layer where, though? 14:45:55 on top of the minimal core 14:46:08 Then what distinguishes your layer from an exokernel? 14:46:25 the core would just multitask, and allocate ram and disk blocks 14:46:40 But not offer any protection of them. 14:46:46 At all. 14:46:49 but it wouldn't stop an application from accessing storage it didn't allocate 14:47:04 --- quit: dsmith ("later..") 14:47:05 OK, but now you're going to slap another layer on top of that. 14:47:11 One that does guard against such things. 14:47:33 but I have to ask, do I save anything by doing this? 14:47:47 Save what? 14:48:08 there's memory protection in hardware, and disks are relatively slow, so a little OS overhead is ok there.. 14:48:14 I know you GAIN some things by adding protection (like increased reliability and safety), but I don't think you'll SAVE anything. 14:48:33 you're right. :) 14:48:34 Memory protection hardware is useless without software to tell it what to protect against. 14:49:29 Unfortunately, disk I/O doesn't have that luxury, since the I/O ports for them are outside the CPU. 14:49:53 Even if you did somehow gain access to the I/O ports, the hardware isn't smart enough to know that sector 6 belongs to me, and 7 to you. 14:49:59 but it's relatively slow 14:50:10 Speed is not what I'm arguing about. 14:50:23 If you don't care about security, then what you're proposing is good. 14:50:44 nevermind, moot point 14:50:50 But for my system, I know that if my software gets buggy, or if someone posts a trojan horse for Dolphin, I want the collateral damage to be as minimal as possible. 14:51:30 Basically, if you take your system, and add protection features to it, you end up with an exokernel. :) 14:51:52 So, as with 6 years ago, we're still trying to develop roughly the same scope of things. :) 14:52:04 yeah.. if i'm working on a game that runs without protection, what if it somehow wipes out my hard disk by a freak accident.. i want to protect against that 14:52:12 it won't interfere with the game 14:58:54 what about i/o ports we have on the x86? protect them too? 15:00:37 i/o ports are problematic in linux.. certain programs have to be setuid root (e.g. svgalib programs) 15:02:01 six years ago................. 15:04:10 tcn2: what does your game do? 15:04:22 hypothetical :) 15:04:25 heh 15:04:27 darn :P 15:04:32 six years what..? 15:05:30 you know, i thought a Paper Plane Simulator would be fun 15:06:32 no, then people will discover they can aim their paper planes at table legs and other tall, squareish objects 15:06:35 but the artwork and graphics coding would be a huge task.. i mean, if you want to have stoves, toilets, cats, bats, fans, etc.. 15:06:41 next thing you know, you'll be abetting TERRORISTS 15:06:45 (or somesuch) 15:07:25 nah, that's what MS flightsim does 15:07:26 ugh, i was just reading a political comic with some terrorism remakrs 15:07:41 s/remakrs/remarks 15:08:14 and i don't really give a shit about the whole terrorism thing.. which is what the U.S government WANTS! :P 15:08:23 there's a lot of censoring in the media 15:08:34 about what's happening/happened over there 15:09:05 it's only when you read international news and compare that with in-country news that you can notice discrepancies like that.. 15:09:20 not to say that international news are telling the full story either 15:09:42 I haven't heard much of US news about the matter and Finland doesn't really care 15:10:00 europe seems to think america is a some kind of rogue state 15:10:13 they'd have us under a worldwide bureaucracy 15:11:28 headed up by the "united nations" 15:11:50 the self styled "world power" 15:12:02 we should kick the UN out of this country permanantly 15:13:12 hm, you guys care too much about what other countries think about you :P 15:13:27 AND 15:13:32 you listen to the extremists 15:13:34 smaller is better.. we should downsize the state & federal governments, not to mention the UN 15:13:37 I440r: We created the UN to prevent further world wars from being started. It's worked effectively well. 15:13:46 no i just care too much about forign countries trying to dictate to us 15:13:54 kc5 bullshit 15:14:00 OK, whatever. 15:14:05 the un hasnt accomplished a fucking thing in its entire history 15:14:08 bureaucracy is ruining the damn world 15:14:12 it should be abolished 15:14:31 The UN kept us from launching nukes at Russia, which prevented the Cold War from erupting into WW3. 15:14:46 It prevented us from invading Cuba, effectively doing the same thing. 15:15:08 And let's not who STARTED the whole UN to begin with: AMERICA! 15:15:48 I strongly recommend you review your history before lambasting an organization like the UN. They're not perfect, but they're not the evil good-for-nothings you make them out to be. 15:16:01 i think that america should have more control over UN because it's not being run as effectively as it could be 15:16:17 we only finance 99% of it too 15:16:18 I think America isn't held accountable enough under UN policies. 15:16:33 and now they want to subject our military to some bullshit global court 15:16:39 I440r: That's right; it's our creation, we invite others to be part of it. Why should anyone else help finance it? 15:16:47 That's right. 15:16:52 Because our military did something very wrong. 15:16:56 We broke the Geneva conventions. 15:17:03 Conventions which, again, we helped create. 15:17:05 its not "our" creation 15:17:08 we dont even fucking run it 15:17:16 We're not supposed to run it. 15:17:18 also u.s should assume the logistics support for the military part of the U.N as a way of being able to make sure the money isn't being spent frivolously! (i read a book about UN problems & its bureacracy) 15:17:23 Like Congress, it's intended to be a forum for deliberation. 15:17:46 But it absolutely is our creation. 15:17:47 wha? Does the ICC already intend do haul some American into court? 15:18:05 ICC? 15:18:06 I've missed this. 15:18:51 well.. the UN should be strictly diplomatic, not another layer of governemtn 15:19:06 yeah true 15:19:08 ICC is another layer.. one world govt.. 15:19:18 if we wanted a global government, we should start it from scratch 15:19:18 if you don't like it, go to mars :) 15:19:49 the bigger they get, the more corruption 15:20:10 venus would be a much nicer planet to live on if we could just land a nice big ice ball on it :D 15:20:49 tcn2: It is very diplomatic. As I've already mentioned, it's kept us and many nations out of some potentially very serious wars. 15:20:53 isn't large-scale government only needed for an industrialized society? and do we want that? 15:21:19 hm? only needed for industrialized? 15:21:23 what society are we now? 15:21:24 digital? 15:21:31 what do we need for a digital society? 15:21:32 No, apparently we're third-world. 15:22:45 the governments need to be leaner.. but one thing i keep wondering is: how can a government survive without taxation??? 15:22:46 roads account for a lot of our governement expenses.. roads! if we weren't commuting so far we wouldn't need such high-maintenance roads 15:23:05 the u.s government existed for a decade or two without taxation .. 15:23:05 OR... 15:23:47 if we switch to HOVERCRAFT like I've been touting for the last half-decade, we wouldn't need roads at all -- we could plant grass and flower beds. Though I'd feel sorry for the furry little critters underneath... :D Not that they'll die, but they might be blown about a bit. 15:23:49 i dunno about where you guys live, but new england has little villages every few miles.. they used to have stores, post offices, libraries, dance halls.. 15:24:02 and farms all around.. 15:24:27 hovercraft :) 15:24:39 isn't a hovercraft really inefficient or something 15:24:45 how many miles/gallon do they get? 5? 15:24:56 tcn2: Over water, maybe. Not over land. They get more over land. 15:25:25 And they can be made quite efficient if we're willing to invest the same amount of research into them as other vehicles. 15:25:38 kc5: what about walking? With short commutes, and dense cities, vehicles are really unnecessary except for heavy cargo 15:26:01 I mean, if a Moller Skycar can get 17 miles to the gallon with 8 Wankel rotary engines in a 4-seat aircraft with directed thrust, we *HAVE* to be able to at least get that amount in a two-engine hovercraft that seats eight. 15:26:25 and floats right off the ground 15:26:27 XeF4: I prefer bikes for that. Walking is good only for 3 to 5 miles distances. 15:26:32 there *is* less friction 15:26:33 forget about walking, what we should have are bouncy shoes or something and run around all the time 15:26:58 if we didn't have to go so far walking and biking would be fine.. 15:27:15 it might be more efficient to go straight to the skycar and skip the hovercraft :P 15:27:42 i guess we are becoming locally self-sufficient for food.. that's the important thing.. 15:27:46 I often do have to go fairly far (20km each way), and a bike is no problem 15:27:48 futhin: It could be. Ducted fan research is revealing a lot of nice attributes -- combines the fuel efficiency of intermittent combustion engines (like piston or Wankels) with the jet-like behaviors of gas-turbines. 15:28:23 XeF4: Exactly. Biking is fun anyway, especially if you can find a nice curvy road or path to take. :) 15:29:04 the hell with technical solutions 15:29:25 and I easily get >50km/litre pea soup, beat *that* with a rotary :) 15:30:23 I can easily go 60km/h, uphill, in my RX-7 -- beat that with your liter of pea soup. 15:31:07 I very seldom need to 15:31:22 I always need to. 15:32:05 naw, running is cooler 15:32:06 Where I live, it's not uncommon for things to be located very far apart, and schedule restrictions mandate that I only have, say, 10 to 15 minutes to get somewhere. 15:32:13 where do you guys live, and what do you for work? 15:32:38 * kc5tja lives in Oceanside, California. I'm a semiconductor verification technican for a company called Hifn, Inc. http://www.hifn.com 15:32:39 i've heard of jet powered boots that enhance running and let you run at 12 km/h or faster.. with ease 15:32:43 i mean, i'm in rural Massachussetts and I work at a factory 5 miles away.. 15:33:19 tcn2: 5 miles...wow...I wish my job was that close. :) 15:33:27 I could walk to work then. :) 15:33:33 and ideally i'd have a small farm and some kind of shop.. fiddle repair or something.. :) 15:33:56 yeah, some people around here bike to the industrial park 15:34:07 * kc5tja ultimately wants to work up a Tesla-configuration gas turbine to power my ham radio and computer from solar. 15:34:14 (yes, an external combustion gas turbine) 15:34:15 it's not very industrial looking either, mostly woods :) 15:34:16 I live in Turku, Finland, but I am originally from Alaska, where things are located very far apart indeed 15:36:03 haha.. i heard about some people in Alaska.. this kid who was visiting went for a walk at night, 30 below out, comes back frozen.. "hey, uh, where's the bathroom?" "second door on the left".. then they hear the back door open so they go out there,, well, they'd replaced the toilet and put the old one on the back porch.. he's out there taking a dump in it! 15:38:05 ?? 15:38:28 is Ocenside, California the sort of place where one would be run down within a year if he even tried to walk? 15:39:01 futhin, where are you from? 15:39:57 calgary, and currently working at a warehouse these days 15:40:40 hehe.. you're the odd man out, kc :) 15:41:27 odd man out ? 15:41:54 only one with a good paying high-stress job :) 15:42:09 heh 15:42:47 i handle stress a lot differently than other people.. my secret? i don't believe in stress ;) 15:43:45 well, i gotta get going.. I guess I will keep going with Retro pretty much the way it is, whenever I get back to it. 15:44:15 apply extreme programming methodology to it :P 15:44:46 i flipped through that XP book once.. it's basically the way I already do things :) 15:45:39 i should look at an xp book, the websites don't really seem to have that much content 15:46:04 it's just common sense 15:46:45 "two heads are better than one".. "don't bite off more than you can chew".. "one step at a time" 15:47:17 so how come nobody is doing pair programming with each other thru the internet or something 15:47:25 but it had some great post-mortems of software fiascos 15:47:44 it's gotta be in the same room! 15:49:06 over the internet isn't the same as looking over each other's shoulder and giving each other tips, brainstorming, etc.. 15:49:10 XeF4: Define run down? 15:49:46 kc5: struck by a vehicle with a none-too-skillful driver 15:50:12 ok, gotta run :) bye all 15:50:16 --- quit: tcn2 ("Leaving") 15:50:19 XeF4: It's possible, but unlikely here. That's more likely to happen up in LA or south, in San Diego. 15:50:38 futhin: because it helps to have two people sitting at the same keyboard. 15:51:21 well i think of a collaborative environment where pair programming could be possible 15:51:22 But XP is more than that common sense: it's also measured. Unit tests are used as an assurance of bug-free code, and the division and completion of sub-projects are used to help estimate project deadlines, etc. It's really a tightly controlled process. 15:51:39 So do I, and I think it already exists -- VNC. :) 15:51:47 But, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has yet done it. 15:54:10 If you're interested in a book on XP, read a book titled "XP Installed." I have a PDF of the book (the online version doesn't exist anymore, for some reason), as well as the deadtree version. Great reading either way. I can see if I can find it if you want... 15:54:44 Yup, I have it right here. 15:55:01 Just a hair under 1MB in size, if you want me to /dcc it to you... 15:57:59 no, vnc doesn't come close to my vision for a collaborative environment :P 15:58:15 hmm 15:58:21 sure send it 15:58:28 i'm not sure if i can recieve it though.. 15:58:33 you might need to email it 16:04:23 .. 16:04:27 * futhin is afk 16:04:45 * kc5tja tries... 16:06:39 it worked 16:07:50 cool, at first glance it looks like a good book 16:08:33 kc: any comments about the book? did you like it or what? 16:10:41 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 16:22:05 --- quit: kc5tja (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:22:16 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@68.7.162.51) joined #forth 16:23:04 --- nick: n_food -> n_ 16:27:17 * kc5tja is away: I'm busy 16:27:24 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:00:06) 16:27:34 * kc5tja loved that book. 16:27:38 * kc5tja swears by that book. 16:28:33 ok good 16:28:44 and you read it on the computer ? 16:28:49 Both. 16:28:59 i've only read one entire book on the computer 16:29:08 It's interesting to see the typos that are in the PDF file, and the typos that are in the deadtree copy, and they don't even overlap. :) 16:29:30 deadtree.. interesting word :P 16:29:40 Hmm...maybe I should put xpinstall.pdf in my Circle file list. 16:29:56 hm? you have a website? 16:30:15 For what, Circle? 16:30:20 circle? 16:30:29 It's a peer to peer file sharing and chat utility. 16:30:34 oh 16:30:42 is it a Gnutella client? 16:30:49 or some other network... 16:30:54 No, it's a Gnutella replacement. Still in alpha though. 16:31:54 hrm, not bad 16:31:58 website looks clean and professional 16:32:10 * kc5tja nods 16:32:33 is it also meant to be an IRC replacement? 16:32:46 Everything is written in Python right now, to aid in software development efforts. As a result, it's a reasonably slow network. But once they're confident that everything works correctly, then they'll start making it go faster. 16:33:51 in what lang? 16:34:02 what lang will they replace python with 16:34:20 forth! :D 16:34:27 Of course, n_ 16:34:42 I don't think they'll ever replace Python in its entirety, but many network-related things might be replaced by a C module extension that Python loads in. 16:34:52 (like Zope does) 16:34:59 kc5tja: what's your opinion of the python language? 16:35:18 python is a slow language that has lots of libraries 16:35:37 One of the best languages invented by man-kind. 16:35:47 and is vaguely similar to C and/or smalltalk (not sure) 16:35:49 Better than Forth? 16:35:56 and therefore is familiar to C losers 16:36:23 futhin: I hope that was in jest. 16:36:34 python is lisp without the brackets and macros 16:36:36 Python is nothing at all like C. 16:36:42 heh 16:36:59 Heh. 16:37:04 It's closest, static relative is Oberon, and it's heavily, HEAVILY, influenced by Smalltalk. 16:37:04 i meant that it's relatively easily to transition from C to python 16:37:12 python was kind of meant to be a perl replacement with more functionality and syntax rule enforcement i think 16:37:18 hence i said "vaguely" 16:37:49 but high-performance programs can't be written in it, right? 16:37:58 so it will never be a viable C replacement... 16:38:11 Not necessarily true. 16:38:22 Depends on your measure of "performance." 16:38:31 Python was never intended to replace systems programming languages. 16:38:50 n_: the philosophy among the python people is to write everything in python, then find the slow parts and slim down the algorithm, then rewrite in a c module if it's still too slow 16:39:00 well, could you make the latest whizz-bang 3d game in python? 16:39:08 But it makes a great scripting language, and its C extension facility allows limitless extensibility of the language through importable libraries. 16:39:30 hrm 16:39:31 n_: Doubtful. You could implement the core game logic, maybe, but not the 3-D transforms or rendering. 16:39:35 n_: not the graphics part, but as a scripting and configuration front-end it would be excellent 16:40:01 how does it compare to Ruby? I think that's another one similar to it in scope and purpose 16:40:43 can you inline asm in python? :P 16:40:47 I find ruby to suck eggs pretty badly. 16:40:58 futhin: No, and holy criminey, why in the world would you ever want to? 16:41:09 kc5tja: why? 16:41:14 n_: ruby tends to err on the side of pure object-orientedness while python on the side of usefulness; python cuts corners and is impure, when it saves a lot of work for the programmer to do so 16:41:16 THey took the best features of Python and molded it with the worst features of Perl. 16:41:42 for 3d transforms :P 16:41:47 kc5tja: actually, you may be able to 16:42:02 The syntax of the language is heavily influenced by Perl, even though it possesses the rough functionality of Python. 16:42:07 so, how is python better than a smalltalk environment like Squeak? 16:42:11 Etaoin: May be able to what? 16:42:18 kc5tja: inline asm 16:42:28 n_: It's significantly easier to learn, for starters. 16:42:31 kc5tja: I just found out today that there's a way to inline c, so I guess anything possible 16:42:37 n_: There's no complicated API to learn to make use of its features. 16:42:57 Etaoin: What version of Python are you talking about? I've never seen this ability posted anywhere. 16:43:58 n_: Not only that, but there's no enclosing virtual machine for it to run in like Smalltalk has. Although it compiles and runs as bytecode, it interacts with the surrounding machine as it is. 16:44:49 kc5tja: not part of core python 16:44:54 would that be an advantage over smalltalk (the latter)? 16:45:09 kc5tja: an extension that builds a c module on the spot, apparently 16:45:10 wouldn't the VM offer more protection and such? 16:45:11 For running in Unix environments, absolutely. 16:45:22 (or for Windows, or any other non-Smalltalk native environment) 16:45:32 n_: Protection from what? 16:45:50 Etaoin: I've never heard of or seen of such a thing. 16:46:00 kc5tja: until today, I hadn't either 16:46:58 Etaoin: Interesting. I'll have to look for it someday 16:47:26 i need to look into python some more and not just write it off as "another scripting language" 16:47:27 ;/ 16:48:09 Zope is written in almost 100% Python. It's a webserver, FTP server, and web publishing system (complete with its own DTML markup language that kicks ColdFusion's butt). 16:48:28 Circle is a P2P system written in Python, that will eventually be optimized. 16:49:08 It really is a nice language. Not as fast as Perl, but "fast enough" for nearly anything you'd ever want it to do. 16:49:17 In my experience, at least. 16:49:31 and the speed doesn't really matter if you're doing socket-based applications 16:49:43 i'm a fan of smalltalk/self myself... 16:49:56 the transfer of data accross the sockets is the limiting factor, not the cpu 16:50:54 The only significant problem I have with Smalltalk is its surrounding VM. Smalltalk was designed to be 100% orthogonally persistent, while Python adheres more to Unix's conventions. 16:51:22 The other nice thing about Python is that it's object orientation is vastly superior to Perl. 16:51:30 And you don't have to write OO programs in it if you don't want to. 16:51:41 I'd say over 80% of my Python scripts are purely procedural in nature. 16:53:07 you aren't like I440r and hate OO with a passion, right? :P 16:53:20 Nope 16:53:29 * kc5tja is a pragmatist though -- I use what works when it works best. 16:54:06 For the record, the test software I write for Hifn is written in straight up C (not C++), but is nonetheless quite object oriented. :) 16:55:11 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-250.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 16:55:15 hiya all 16:55:40 re 16:55:57 hiya kc5tja...how're things? 16:56:21 Going OK I guess. 16:56:36 Stayed home from work today because of an upset stomach, but it's clearing up nicely now. 16:56:45 Had some food poisoning lingering from over the weekend. 16:57:04 what bad food did you eat? 16:57:20 yikes....sounds like you need better food management of sorts 16:57:24 I'm not sure, but I think it was some French onion dip. 16:57:37 TheBlueWizard: This could have happened to anyone at anytime from anything. 16:58:08 true...but bad handling does increase the risks.... 16:58:28 There's not much handling I can screw up when the packages involved are all vacuum sealed. 16:58:48 hmm! I see...ok 16:58:49 This was probably just a tup of creme that got spoiled prematurely. 16:59:03 probably some really old onion dip that was sitting in the fridge for a long while... 16:59:13 It's rare, but I occasionally do get milk gallons that are sour even though the due date is well into the future. 16:59:19 Dairy is like that. Sometimes it happens. 16:59:33 well, you could just switch to soy milk :) 16:59:37 n_: no, this is dip that I got from the store a couple of days ago. 16:59:45 yeah...some do get spoiled fast or prematurely...I used to buy a certain choc milk, but it kept getting spoiled too quickly, so I stopped buying it 17:00:14 See, I always buy the chocolate milk in quarter gallon jugs, because it takes me at most two days to drink it. :) 17:00:19 * TheBlueWizard nods re: certain milk products...they do get spoiled before their due age 17:00:27 and abandon dairy altogether... 17:00:55 * kc5tja can't abandon dairy -- I grew up on the stuff. :) But I don't eat/drink it all the time. 17:01:07 me too 17:01:12 It's not like I live on potato chips and sour cream and onion dip... 17:01:14 I use milk with cereal 17:01:30 I eat cereal about once every two months. 17:01:41 Sometimes longer. 17:01:42 I eat cereal daily 17:02:01 Well, with irritable bowel syndrome, I can't do that unfortunately. :) 17:02:32 I see 17:03:06 But if I have foods in moderation, I usually can enjoy them in peace. Unless they're prematurely spoiled. :) 17:03:35 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 17:04:02 mmhmm 17:04:27 I suppose you have to eat a lot of bland food, like tofu, hm? 17:06:01 I actually *like* bland food, so it doesn't bother me at all. 17:06:37 Chicken, tofu, turkey, tuna fish, pasta, and vegetables of all sorts (especially esparagus and broccolli and cauliflower). 17:07:02 heh...I prefer fiery food...I love to make tacos with lots of hot stuff loaded in it :) 17:07:23 s/esparagus/asparagus/ 17:13:36 Nope, not I. I like the bland stuff, because when you combine them with other bland stuff, it's not bland anymore. 17:13:47 And you never have to resort to complicated spice recipies. 17:14:28 so what do you usually have for breakfast, kc? 17:14:32 * n_ couldn't live without cereal 17:15:59 Raisin bread usually. 17:21:17 tofu is great though 17:21:22 * n_ loves tofu 17:21:36 in fact i think i will make myself a tofu salad right now 17:22:34 tofu is OK by me...though I haven't eaten it in a long, long time 17:31:05 Well, I regret to say, but I must dispatch myself to do other things. 17:31:16 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-afk 17:31:24 ok 17:36:48 * futhin is back and reading backlog now 17:38:47 hiya futhin 17:40:59 hmm, i'm contemplating doing some coding 17:41:08 i've come to realize that FPC is bad for me 17:41:14 because i'm not doing any forth coding in it 17:41:19 so i'm going to go back to pygmy 17:41:24 for now 17:41:27 need more momentum 17:41:43 momentum is very important :) 17:42:48 what sort of "momentum" are you looking for? 17:44:52 let's put it this way, i have to clean up the kitchen and my bedroom before i can actually code or do anything productive.. 17:45:09 like, i'll start on something easy 17:45:12 and build momentum from there 17:45:22 but unfortunately it only lasts for a day or two 17:45:25 at most threedays 17:45:36 which is really really really lame 17:46:06 like what the hell, why can't i keep my room and kitchen clean _all_ the time, and as well do productive stuff and keep on top of all the things i need to keep on top of 17:46:16 i really need to build some habits & discipline or something.. 17:47:00 hehe...I understand...the trick is to try to get at least a couple hours devoted to that particular project each week...I have to set some specific goal in order to make progress 17:47:18 yeah 17:47:23 * TheBlueWizard does clean up at irregular times :) 17:47:24 and i procrastinate on setting the goal 17:47:28 grr!! :) 17:47:58 lol 17:48:00 like awhile ago i was thinking "hmm, i should dedicate 5 hours each week to coding" but did i ever commit to it? nope 17:48:27 add some stick as well as carrot to your goal ;) 17:48:38 heh 17:49:04 i believe i am relatively productive.. i generally don't watch t.v or play computer games.. but i do spend too much time on irc :/ 17:49:10 i read a lot of books though 17:49:27 if i'm not working and i'm not here, i'm reading a book 80% of the time 17:49:53 hehe...I haven't read much books...but I read a lot of Web articles and newspapers ... too much! yet I must plod on.... :) 17:50:28 heh yeah 17:50:38 well i've got a bit of a dilemma with books 17:51:26 basically i want to do productive stuff, do my projects, code cool stuff, and also build businesses, make money, etc.. 17:51:36 but i also want to read books because of the information they contain 17:51:56 to make sure i'm not missing any info 17:52:25 i probably should sue my dad for making me a perfectionist lol 17:52:34 hehe....and I have a bit of a dilemma myself also: get a damn new job...I'm stull stuck in Microsoftian Hell :P 17:52:50 s/stull/still/ 17:53:07 well ask for a weekday off every now and then 17:53:14 and spend that weekday job searching 17:53:56 well, i suppose some people can find jobs while at work 17:54:05 if their work environment is slack enough 17:57:46 i should do some goal setting 17:57:59 but i got so many frickin goals that i find it hard to figure out where to start 17:58:33 pick the easiest, quickest one and attack it with gusto :) 17:59:31 yeah, i can't figure out which is the easiest either :P 17:59:31 that was *quite* a good tofu salad... 17:59:45 i like tofu 17:59:51 but not tofu hotdogs :P 18:00:22 yeah, it's no fun as a meat-subsitute 18:00:28 substitute* 18:04:48 jeez, momentum is so fucked.. it's so hard to start, and so easy to continue 18:04:59 ? 18:05:07 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview21.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 18:05:09 motivation to code? 18:05:30 n_: momentum to do productive stuff 18:06:29 hiya skylan 18:07:20 skylan, aka the lan in the sky, aka big brother, don't talk to him! :P 18:07:39 Heh 18:08:27 Hrm.. did you figure "the lan in the sky" on your own, or did you do some back-searching on me? :) 18:08:56 I've gotta finish unpacking from this trip.. 18:12:00 lan in the sky made me think of terminator 18:12:09 the computer thingie in the sky 18:12:19 gotta go...bye 18:12:24 figured it out on my own 18:12:31 bye tbw 18:12:36 bye futhin 18:12:43 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:13:00 well, i'm leaving 18:13:01 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 19:25:43 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 20:27:34 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:37:10 --- nick: kc-afk -> kc5tja 22:37:34 --- quit: skylan ("on vacation in AZ, USA for four weeks. ^_^") 23:07:16 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:19:24 --- quit: n_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:44:59 * njd is away -( die )- at 03:51p -( P:Off / L:On )- 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.15