00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.07.11 00:00:22 --- quit: Mongrel ("BitchX: now with 42 percent more random quit messages!") 00:54:13 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:55:59 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:02:41 --- quit: njd ("subaru tecnica international | nissan motorsports international") 03:07:22 --- quit: skylan (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:07:23 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:07:46 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint270.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 03:07:46 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 04:11:30 --- quit: skylan (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:32 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:36 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint270.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 04:11:36 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 04:11:46 --- quit: skylan (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:48 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:13:29 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint270.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 04:13:29 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 04:15:34 --- quit: skylan (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:16:32 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint270.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 04:17:13 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:17:37 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 04:54:25 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth 06:03:50 --- quit: dsmith ("later..") 06:14:09 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth 06:22:19 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:13:58 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@65.142.111.100) joined #forth 09:45:19 * dsmith is away: Testing 09:53:48 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 09:54:32 --- quit: dsmith (Remote closed the connection) 09:58:45 --- quit: kc5tja ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!") 10:03:32 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 10:52:27 OK. Here's what I've discoved so far with respect to keyboard mappings thus far; I find Dvorak does little to aid the ergonomics of an ergonomic keyboard. However, with few exceptions, there is a night and day difference on non-ergonomic keyboards. 10:54:41 What do keyboard mappings have to do with ergonomic keyboards? 10:55:05 also, Dvorak propaganda. 10:55:20 Even though my speed is much slower with Dvorak now, I find it more comfortable. 10:55:28 Everything. 10:55:48 How long have you been using Dvorak? 10:56:19 I've used it for about a month on the ergonomic keyboards, and this is the first time I'm using it on a straight keyboard. 10:56:30 (switched to QWERTY to keep up with you) 10:57:02 about a month, and you type slowly? For shame. 10:57:14 ?? 10:57:33 I've had my guitar for about a year now, but I still can't play it very well. What does that prove? 10:57:39 Nothing. 10:57:49 Dvorak isn't a guitar. One moment. 10:57:49 OTOH, I've been using QWERTY since I was 4. 10:58:34 And this whole propeganda against Dvorak is rediculous too. "Dvorak Propeganda" indeed. As you say, "For shame." 10:59:46 After three days of using Dvorak, I typed much easier than I did on Qwerty, and at about the same (~100 Wpm). Try http://www.karelia.com/abcd/abcd.html , which I used, and just run through it. What's slowing you down? Are you switching between Qwerty and Dvorak, a lot? 10:59:47 It doesn't need to be a guitar. The whole issue is dexterity and muscle memory. That takes time to develop. 11:00:04 kc5 - you misunderstood me, I was not saying that anything in particular was 'Dvorak propaganda'. 11:00:08 --- join: gedamo (gdm@gedamo.demon.co.uk) joined #forth 11:01:03 At any rate, I didn't intend on starting a war here. I am merely making an observation, based on my experience. 11:01:17 kc5 - I was, to translate: "From what I've read of Dvorak from people who support Dvorak, I think that you would find such writings interesting as it relates to what you've just said [and, silently, disputes what you appeared to say]" 11:01:37 One of the most cited reasons to use Dvorak is one of typist comfort -- ergonomics. Well, I've found that it doesn't make much difference on an ergonomic keyboard, but on a flat keyboard, it does. 11:02:09 kc5 - ah. hm. 11:03:08 I just found that to be interesting, that's all; especially remembering Chuck's preferred keyboard is a 27-key keyboard that uses a Dvorak-like mapping. 11:03:20 kc5 - why do you think that an ergonomic keyboard, which, from all ergonomic keboards that I've seen, is merely a flat keyboard that's bent in the middle of the home row, would make Qwerty as easy as Dvorak? 11:03:33 * cleverdra nods. 11:04:25 I find the ergonomic keyboards requires the hands to move much less, and the wrists are in a more natural state fr that arm position. 11:05:16 Flat keyboards (of which I'm rather forced to use one here at work now) puts a lot of stress on my wrists. That's why I decided to try Dvorak on this keyboard. 11:05:28 I to have found Dvorak to be much more comfortable and causes much less strain on my hands. (with a normal keyboard... can't speak for the ergenomic ones, as I don't have one) 11:05:32 Dvorak propaganda, as I mentioned, suggests that Qwerty itself requires more motion than Dvorak. 11:05:56 cleverdra: it does 11:06:05 cleverdra: Yes, but if the wrists are in a more neutral position, it doesn't do the damage that it's often attributed for. 11:06:11 * cleverdra shrugs, not having done serious research. 11:06:27 The whole point to the ergo keyboards is to alleviate the stress on the Carpal tunnel. 11:06:30 cleverdra: theres no arguing the amount of movement. Dvorak puts the keys that you use more closer to your fingers 11:06:34 * cleverdra nods. 11:06:39 That allows the tendons and ligaments to move more freely. 11:06:50 Herk - I'm not arguing. This is what I've been told. 11:07:03 coo 11:07:08 Dvorak takes a different approach to the problem: if it hurts to move, stop moving. :) 11:07:52 * cleverdra notes that the keyboard attached to his linux machine is ergo/dvorak/CTRL-in-proper-place. 11:07:57 I did semi-serious research in to it a couple of months ago, when I was first experiencing some wrist pain. 11:08:12 It has a screwy \| placement, but I mapped two alt-keys to those, which is much easier to use. 11:08:28 kc5 - ack, wrist pain is scary. 11:08:39 cleverdra: my dvorak dosn't move \| 11:08:41 Ergo+Dvorak to me isn't much more comfortable than just Ergo, but because the keys are placed in a convenient spot, it's a surefire equation for damn fast typing. :) 11:09:22 However, having used QwERTY for the last 20 years of my life, and happily tapping away at 90+ WPM, I don't need any more speed. 11:09:52 * Herkamire wishes he could type fast 11:09:57 kc5 - do you type properly on Qwerty? On the home row? 11:10:08 I just need proficiency. :) 11:10:18 * kc5tja nods 11:10:24 I do. 11:10:37 I don't even need labels on the keys. 11:10:44 That may have something to do with it. 11:11:18 When I typed Qwerty the first time (that is, before I learned Dvorak (in the process totally forgetting Qwerty)), I learned it through use. I typed fast but didn't do it properly. 11:11:57 Do for me Dvorak was *much* more comfortable than Qwerty. 11:12:07 oh, I don't look at the keys, I just can't type real fast. I put it off to Dyslexia :) 11:12:28 Dyslexia shouldn't have anything to do with kinesthetic memory... 11:12:46 it's not kinesthetic memory 11:12:57 it's translating from thought into the correct sequence of letters 11:13:04 letters/motions 11:13:21 oh, yes. 11:13:38 thought->DYSLEXIA->letters->typing 11:14:18 and there seems to be some funky thing in my brain where it thinks that certain letters are "close enough" and I'll type them instead 11:14:33 but, then I thought that Dyslexia was perceptual. The Dyslexia-propaganda is screwy. 11:14:45 (at least the popular stuff) 11:14:49 dyslexia is about 8 different things 11:15:05 if you have any of them much, you are "dyslexic" 11:15:14 some dyslexic people can't use a mouse 11:15:31 no hand-eye coordination? 11:15:57 I knew a guy who couldn't handle the mouse, but then he turned it upside down and he could use it easily 11:16:11 Oh. 11:16:47 most stuff about dislexiy is getting things switched or backwards in some way 11:18:12 I think I could improve my typing a lot if I had a good typing tutor program (like Mavis Beakon Teaches typing) that would see what I'm doing wrong a lot and drill me on that. 11:18:30 OK, I've firmly decided that Winzip is a bloody screwy program. It creates an image of the .zip file it's creating entirely in RAM, before it writes it to disk, or so it seems. 11:18:39 Whoops...wrong channel. 11:20:21 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth 11:32:42 I cannot believe that WinZip is still searching the filesystem... 11:32:59 * kc5tja sighs 11:38:54 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 11:40:09 Great -- I can't access the web from this machine. The proxy refuses to see this machine. 11:45:25 Actually, it might be that it cannot find the DNS servers...that will definitely cause this error to occur too. 11:46:10 Oh well...bbiab... 11:58:51 --- join: n_ (adlez@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:41:52 --- quit: gedamo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:50:06 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 13:14:24 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:14:29 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@65.142.111.100) joined #forth 14:15:46 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust164.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 14:17:37 Hey :) 14:20:15 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 14:40:11 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:54:31 --- quit: dsmith ("later..") 15:00:56 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 15:10:05 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 15:19:57 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:20:00 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint248.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 15:21:57 --- quit: njd ("subaru tecnica international | nissan motorsports international") 15:27:27 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 15:27:36 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:10:40 --- quit: njd ("[BX] The Borg use BitchX. It will be assimilated. Shouldn't you?") 16:13:37 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:18:15 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52007.vnet.hu) joined #forth 16:18:44 --- part: onetom left #forth 16:27:55 --- quit: njd ("BitchX: the fresh-maker!") 16:28:56 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:36:19 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 16:51:41 --- join: geakazoid (JB@adsl-63-206-90-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:00:46 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 17:02:30 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on) 17:12:06 --- quit: n_ () 17:12:09 --- join: n_ (adlez@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:37:05 --- nick: SoapZZz -> Soap- 17:48:15 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 17:49:01 howdy 17:49:03 hello 17:49:04 hi 17:49:06 hey 17:49:18 huh? 17:49:21 ho 17:49:22 ho! 17:49:58 ??? Hello, I think... 17:50:21 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:52:10 I think I got my If Construct for my forth 17:52:45 IfZero: $+3 jz ret 17:52:57 written in rpn assembler syntax 17:53:00 its a macro 17:53:08 not an actual forth word 17:54:09 if the condition is true, do a ret; compact and clear syntax, yet powerful enough 17:54:22 wonder if someone already did this 17:57:18 I will write the macros I find in a include file for NASM; Poor Man's Forth ;p 17:58:36 * CrowKiller just baptized his project! *hapyy! happy! joy! joy!, happy! happy! joy! joy!* 17:59:32 http://b3ta.com/spidermanwillmakeyougay/ 17:59:33 lol 18:00:57 too bad it's a proprietary Flash file 18:01:03 otherwise i might be laughing too 18:04:07 are you using linux? i heard somewhere of flash working on it 18:24:21 no... QNX 18:26:57 not a QNX only machine?? 18:28:41 you're using it just for fun, or you work on that platform? 18:28:54 main machine 18:30:10 maybe i should relook at this OS, been a while since i installed it in dual boot configuration, much like you try a linux system for the first time 18:32:16 what OS do you use for your daily work? 18:33:09 windoze 18:33:20 i used linux a lot though 18:33:41 http://www.qnx.com/demodisk/ 18:33:54 why winblows? 18:34:02 and also, which version?> 18:35:29 windows 98, the company's version 18:35:40 i used cad software at work 18:35:51 i used also a lot of microcontrollers dev tool 18:36:03 only present on windows 18:36:32 since my linux partition got corrupted, i decided not to enslave myself into linux anymore 18:36:57 "enslave" 18:36:58 ? 18:37:02 windows is the only os that does that 18:37:23 hmmmm setup times in windows and compatibility with hardware is instanteanous 18:37:32 more fragile system crash a lot 18:37:56 but i dont do anything critical, and my machine rarely crash 18:38:10 even if its windows 18:38:21 i dont run a lot of apps that surely does help 18:40:03 --- join: CrowKilr (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 18:40:03 --- quit: CrowKiller (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:41:28 enslaveemtn in linux is taking 3 hours to setup the damn dsp modem that is advised to work properly 18:41:43 No, that's user error or driver failure. 18:41:49 and little stuff like that, sure the unix environment is great 18:41:58 Enslavement is when you archive and backup your D: drive, only to find that 50% of it IS FUCKING MISSING!!! 18:42:06 Like right now, for example. 18:42:07 but i dont need that complexity in my daily computer practices 18:42:36 i hope for you there wa not important data 18:42:59 i read an article refered from slahsdot about a digital dark age becoming a reality 18:43:02 As a matter of fact, it was the very project I was working on and is due tomorrow. 18:43:20 n_: what qnx os you got? the lame rtp one? i have qnx 4.24 18:43:33 RTP is anything but lame. 18:43:42 Jesus Christ, I fucking hate it when people say that. 18:43:52 have you used 4.24? 18:43:56 in comparison is kinda lame 18:44:01 How so? 18:44:03 s/is/it's 18:44:30 * kc5tja cries -- it's gone. It's literally gone. 18:44:32 mostly the photon gui looks different :P but there are some other changes that i can't recall 18:44:43 So change the GUI. 18:45:01 * CrowKilr did the same when his linux partition - a continual project i was working on- got away 18:45:20 qnx is very modular, as they say, it should be easy if they say so 18:45:20 I WISH I were working in Linux. 18:45:27 Linux doesn't do stupid shit like this to me. 18:45:30 Only on NT! 18:45:33 Only with Windows! 18:45:44 nt and windows 98/95 are different worlds 18:45:50 98 is worse 18:46:11 NT is the more stable of the two, and this happened under NT. But, it was a GNU tool bandaided to run under NT thanks to Cygnus. 18:47:15 Frig. Now I'm going to have to check my stuff out of CVS *AGAIN*, re-implement the software patches I made last night, re-run the fscking tests all over again (antoher 24 hour investment!!!), and hope that I actually get failures to debug with. 18:47:27 There's no frigging way I'll be ready for tomorrow's meeting. :( 18:47:36 God, I can't wait until this upgrade is finished. I cannot WAIT... 18:47:43 where do you work, kc? 18:48:36 is the data only corrupted 18:48:44 i mean on the hd, is it recuperable? 18:49:18 n_: Hifn, Inc. 18:49:26 or you erased your data and it was supposed to be on the missing part of backup? 18:49:31 The data is gone. As in, "File doesn't exist." 18:49:42 tar didn't even grab the file. 18:49:48 files actually. 18:49:58 I mean, I can reconstruct it (I hope) by re-running my tests overnight again. 18:50:22 It's not that big of a deal from that perspective. It's just that I'm under deadline, and I was scheduled to submit an action plan at tomorrow's staff meeting. 18:50:41 Now, I have to submit, "Uhhh... like, something happened with my files or something, and like, it's gone, so I have to reconstruct the data." 18:50:52 IN short, I'm going to look like an idiot. 18:50:56 And it wasn't even MY FAULT. 18:51:02 hehe 18:51:02 action plan, you mean telle people what to work on? 18:51:04 That pisses me off *SO MUCH*. 18:51:21 blame Billy :P 18:51:22 No, I submit a plan of action that I need to take to debug the software so that others can approve/disapprove of ti. 18:52:00 kk 18:52:11 * kc5tja considers registering TotalCostofOwnership.com so I can put up a wbsite documenting, for each registered compnay, how much time and money is wasted because of Windows or Windows software (including GNU tools) 18:52:27 hmm 18:52:39 if you know the right kind of people, you could get funding to do that website :P 18:54:08 i would fund it if i had the money 18:54:16 ;) 18:54:36 if anybody here works for microsoft i demand they reveal so or leave this channel 18:54:50 * n_ raises his hand 18:54:58 but i'm a spy, i'm working to take it down from the inside ;( 18:55:20 what work do you do? 18:57:33 * n_ was joking 18:58:17 oh so you are retired? 18:58:40 the question is still valid out of context :P 19:08:23 * kc5tja is trying to restore off an alternate backup source... 19:08:30 It's day-old or two-day old data, but it'll be better than nothing. 19:19:09 viva backups 19:20:04 to get back to qnx, what version of qnx do you reocmmend for my 400MHZ pc? 19:26:37 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@216.25.202.105) joined #forth 19:26:47 hiya all 19:27:52 hi 19:28:02 hiya CrowKilr 19:28:09 re 19:28:10 n_: ill try the QNX demodisk 19:28:19 pretty quiet tonite, I guess 19:28:24 hiya kc5tja 19:32:26 --- quit: CrowKilr ("testing qnx demodisk") 19:39:13 Yeah, I'd say it's pretty quiet now. :) 19:40:02 hehe 19:45:57 if you wish it to be noisy, i can provide some noise :P 19:46:31 i'm watching startrek, there are dvds out containing the entire seasons for 1 and 2 and 3 19:46:35 so i'm waching season 2 19:46:45 ST:TNG? 20:13:34 gotta go...bye all 20:13:37 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:18:19 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 20:26:58 --- quit: njd ("i feel the need") 20:27:41 yeah TNG of course :P 20:30:32 hehe 20:30:34 TNG eh 20:30:38 do you like voyager too? 20:32:39 a little 20:33:00 i don't like the cast as much 20:33:24 the holographic doctor, tom paris, his girlfriend, the captain, neelix.. all kinda boring 20:33:37 heh 20:34:06 but i like all the borg stuff and that advanced organic race that the borg fear 20:34:11 and i like seven of nine 20:34:17 not superficially 20:34:22 but as a borg 20:34:24 on the ship 20:34:24 etc 20:34:47 she's the most interesting character to me, as spock is the most interesting character to me on the orginial, and data is the most interesting character on TNG 20:35:02 and besides, the borg own! ;) 20:58:33 --- quit: futhin ("bed") 21:00:11 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise OverFlowError, "Ewwww, now it's all over the floor."") 21:01:54 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 22:14:48 * njd is away -( afk )- at 04:34p -( P:Off / L:Off )- 22:42:38 --- quit: geakazoid ("Leaving... ") 23:58:07 --- quit: Soap- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.11