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06:50:36 <snowrich> hello.
06:52:13 <snowrich> I've corrected the errors I made in my isforth notes.  Sorry about my confusion.  I was very tired at the time. 
06:52:31 <rob_ert> Hi there.
06:52:37 <rob_ert> Hmm... what IsForth notes?
06:52:59 <snowrich> an article I have posted on my web site.  see the linux forum at snowrich.dtdns.net
06:53:19 <rob_ert> OK, I will, later :)
06:53:41 <rob_ert> Hrmm.. I'm working on a web page too, I'll probably mention IsForth there :) It's a nice piece of software.
06:54:10 <snowrich> I haven't actually done more than the install yet.  Its been a while since I messed with forth. 
06:54:38 <rob_ert> Oh.
06:55:19 <snowrich> but I downloaded it because I wanted the read the listing to see how it works. 
06:55:48 <rob_ert> I learnt a lot from the IsForth sources.
06:55:53 <snowrich> but 6000+ lines of code will take me a while to study :)
06:57:01 <rob_ert> I guess you don't need to read _everything_ :)
06:57:08 <snowrich> the listing is posted on my site as well.  its much easier to read in the browser. 
06:57:24 <rob_ert> Both I and I440r have written sockets code for IsForth, too.
06:58:38 <snowrich> Is there something similar to the "system" call in C there yet? I could write that and make an editor command. 
06:59:11 <rob_ert> Actually, I have no idea.
06:59:17 <rob_ert> How is system() implemented?
06:59:17 <snowrich> I see you can make system calls if you know the parameters but I have not studied the linux system calls closely yet. 
06:59:36 <rob_ert> Does it just spawn /bin/sh?
06:59:54 <snowrich> pretty much, passed a command line to shell.
07:00:49 <rob_ert> I see.
07:01:09 <rob_ert> Then it's just a matter of fork() and execve()?
07:01:18 <snowrich> yes I think that's it. 
07:04:24 <snowrich> I could look at the assembly code GCC generates and cheat a little. :)
07:06:28 <rob_ert> Heh.
07:06:33 <rob_ert> :)
07:06:45 <rob_ert> Disassemble glibc.
07:07:33 <snowrich> I could compile it from source and have it generate the assembly listings.  bet it would take a lot of space. 
07:10:12 <rob_ert> Ewww ;)
07:10:24 <rob_ert> gcc produced assembly code isn't that good anyway.
07:10:54 <snowrich> not compared to forth.  
07:12:11 <rob_ert> :)
07:12:24 <rob_ert> I know, forth isn't that fast.
07:12:35 <rob_ert> That's why you write some pieces in assembly ;)
07:16:21 <snowrich> Its much faster than java.  The java virtual machine is quite complex. 
07:18:40 <rob_ert> Well, I don't like Java anyway... Big and slow :/
07:18:50 <snowrich> well I know how to call the "system" routine in assembly code, but I wanted the code for the "system" routine itself. you don't want to include glibc.  
07:19:47 <rob_ert> I know.
07:20:08 <dsmith> snowrich: system is a fork/exec of /bin/sh -c
07:20:19 <dsmith> snowrich: usually
07:20:35 <snowrich> I need to study the system calls.  
07:21:28 <snowrich> the man pages show how to do them in C.
07:21:31 <dsmith> snowrich: You need wait also.
07:22:37 <snowrich> I looked at how all that was done in Minix a long time ago for a class, but I've mostly forgotten it all.  
07:23:33 <snowrich> but its all open source, so I can read it again. 
07:25:08 <dsmith> snowrich: Just see how it's done in glibc or the libraries in the *bsd's
07:25:19 <dsmith> snowrich: Standard stuff.
07:26:00 <dsmith> snowrich: I've got some code in some books at home too.
07:26:22 <snowrich> I was using a source-based distro a while back and compiled the whole linux system from sources.
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07:28:34 <snowrich> downloading glibc.  I'll take a look at system.  
07:30:18 <dsmith> snowrich: fork/exec is the central concept in unix.  That and devices are just files
07:31:51 <snowrich> I took that class in operating systems back in the 80's.  I have to refresh my memory.  I had a head injury when I was in the Navy and have trouble remembering stuff from that long ago. :)
07:33:23 <rob_ert> Hi Herkamire.
07:34:32 <dsmith> snowrich: At least you have an excuse.  I just can't remember stuff. ;^)
07:35:00 <snowrich> I took another class in Unix at a tech school more recently but we didn't get into programming at all. 
07:35:40 <snowrich> most of us didn't manage to learn vi very well. :)
07:37:20 <snowrich> the networking curriculum was based on Novell 3.12.  Piece of junk. 
07:38:50 <snowrich> well it works for what it does, but unix/linux is much better I think. 
07:39:14 * rob_ert uses Windows 95 for its stability.
07:42:43 * snowrich hopes rob_ert is joking
07:43:38 * dsmith realizes that rob_ert likes excitement and unexpected surprises
07:44:46 <rob_ert> :)
07:44:57 <rob_ert> I'm just bored, but actually I just booted Win98.
07:45:03 <rob_ert> To play Warcraft, though :)
07:45:38 * dsmith hasn't used a m$ "os" in years
07:45:41 <snowrich> actually I will use windows98 when I have to. but I damaged my cd and can't install it again. 
07:47:15 <snowrich> mostly to fix my mom's stuff
07:47:17 <rob_ert> I mostly use UNIX clones.
07:47:24 <rob_ert> Sometimes DOS or CP/M on older computers.
07:47:42 <snowrich> I wrote my first C program on MP/M
07:48:35 <dsmith> snowrich: I did on ccpm.  Same stuff.
07:48:36 <snowrich> they had a computer lab with 1 processor for each terminal, they mostly used it as a terminal server for the mainframe, but you could program it. 
07:50:44 <snowrich> now I can run programs for that mainframe on this pc much faster than they did on the mainframe.  it was a 360/50.
07:54:12 <snowrich> not that I am, but there is a 360/70/90 emulator called hercules which I have tried. 
07:55:10 <dsmith> snowrich: Anyone that's messed with mp/m has been around.  How old are you?
07:55:16 <snowrich> 45
07:56:04 <dsmith> snowrich: Ahh. I'm 42.
07:56:13 <snowrich> getting white hair in my beard, memory failing, aches and pains...
07:56:36 <dsmith> snowrich: Old Man's Disease
07:56:55 <dsmith> snowrich: You start grunting more whenn you get up.
07:57:51 <snowrich> actually I feel pretty good most of the time, but I'm getting a hernia operated on this month. 
08:00:44 * snowrich computer addiction causes lack of sleep sometimes.
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08:07:55 <snowrich> be back later....
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08:13:36 <Etaoin> bye
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08:53:58 <Etaoin> hi tathi
08:54:37 <rob_ert> Hi Etaoin, tathi :)
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09:44:15 <rob_ert> Hey.
09:44:53 <I440r> hi
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10:27:35 <Speuler> g'day
10:29:40 <I440r> bongo!
10:30:04 <Speuler> aye
10:30:23 <Speuler> live, lively and living
10:30:52 <Speuler> how'r doing dude
10:31:27 <I440r> not too bad
10:31:36 <I440r> ive written that text windowing system
10:31:37 <Speuler> sounds quite allright
10:31:41 <I440r> but its a bit slow on the update
10:31:45 <Speuler> hmm
10:31:56 <Speuler> i've written a quick one :)
10:31:56 <I440r> need to speed it up
10:32:10 <I440r> that does what ?
10:32:13 <Speuler> simple trick used:
10:32:35 <I440r> what trick
10:32:37 <Speuler> well, all kind of windows, text mode, overlapping, movable and so on
10:32:47 <Speuler> my background is a window too
10:32:53 <Speuler> and it has a shadow
10:32:58 <I440r> i call the background a screen
10:33:05 <Speuler> which contains the number of the windows "owning" the char position
10:33:08 <I440r> and you can write windows INTO a screen
10:33:14 <I440r> oh
10:33:22 <I440r> i dont need to know that heh
10:33:27 <Speuler> so, when outputting chars, i just look up whether it is visible
10:33:29 <Speuler> quickly
10:33:30 <I440r> and my windows are overlapped nicely heh
10:33:35 <I440r> thats not the problem
10:33:47 <Speuler> but ?
10:33:52 <I440r> the problem is the console update is slow
10:33:57 <Speuler> ah
10:34:53 <I440r> the actual windowing shit is fast. its just the display update thats too slow
10:35:04 <I440r> it bugs me :P
10:35:16 <Herkamire> you'll have to write your own graphics drivers ;)
10:35:43 <Speuler> i use "pluggable"  output drivers. direct hardware writes, ANSI, or BIOS output
10:35:53 <Speuler> ansi was slow of course
10:36:09 <Speuler> but i could redirect windows through serial link :)
10:36:18 <I440r> you CANT write directly to hardware in linux
10:36:28 <I440r> the actual video display might not be local
10:36:37 <Speuler> you can under msdog
10:36:50 <I440r> and ncurses display update is INSTANT
10:37:01 <I440r> which is realy annoying me right now
10:37:57 <Herkamire> I440r: aren't you using ncurses?
10:38:11 <I440r> fuck no
10:38:33 <Herkamire> oh right... it's a library :)
10:38:34 <I440r> my windowing system compiles into 3k of code
10:38:50 <Speuler> would slang be any good ?
10:38:53 <Speuler> look quick too
10:38:55 <Herkamire> you have to find out what ncurses does :)
10:38:56 <I440r> and its 24562983469824598275982376982354 gigs of source file
10:39:26 <I440r> speuler if its not 100% forth with some assembler it is not being used in isforth
10:39:39 <I440r> isforth will make use of not ONE fuciing thing other than forth
10:40:25 <Herkamire> too bad x86 asm is such a mess
10:40:29 <I440r> what is slang anyway ?
10:40:38 <I440r> herk no actually x86 isnt a mess at all
10:40:45 <I440r> its just asm
10:40:55 <Speuler> text mode library
10:41:04 <I440r> its light years better than crappy fucked up languages like c
10:41:13 <Speuler> colors, cursor pos, output, that kind of shit
10:41:21 <Herkamire> I440r: :) I was compairing it with PPC ASM :)
10:41:41 <I440r> bongo check the isforth extensions color.f and term.f
10:41:56 <Speuler> haven't got it here
10:41:57 <I440r> term.f handles the cursor positioning, regeon scrolling etc
10:42:09 <Herkamire> I440r: isforth redraws the screen two or three times when I start it up...
10:42:10 <I440r> color.f handles attributes etc
10:42:21 <I440r> herk it should draw it once
10:43:54 <Herkamire> my terminal blinks (the text disapears and reapears) about five times before isforth comes up with the menubar and blam
10:43:54 <Speuler> hmm
10:44:08 <Speuler> render text to png, display it with an image viewer ?
10:44:20 <I440r> aview can do that i think
10:44:22 <Herkamire> pnm
10:44:32 <Herkamire> (if you're local)
10:44:39 <I440r> herk what machine are yourunning this on ?
10:46:02 <Herkamire> Linux dev.rpdesign.com 2.4.7-10enterprise #1 SMP Thu Sep 6 16:48:20 EDT 2001 i686 unknown
10:46:24 <I440r> hmmm might be because its smp
10:46:27 * Speuler fires up his pizza disassembler
10:47:12 <Herkamire> odd it's using smp... I don't think that thing has two processors...
10:48:19 <I440r> aha then its not smp thats the problem
10:48:28 <Speuler> debian's default .config comes with "SMP=y"
10:48:39 <I440r> if you compile smp into your linux kernel when you dont have 2 processors all it does is increase the size of your kernel ehh
10:49:22 <Herkamire> I440r: yeah I know it's stupid. I didn't realize it was in there, and I don't know why it is. it's just our stupid testing server though.
10:49:30 <I440r> heh
10:49:41 <I440r> well ive no idea when you get what you get
10:49:45 <I440r> its not isforth doing that
10:49:56 <I440r> isforth only draws things once
10:50:03 <I440r> is this in a console?
10:50:37 <Herkamire> in xterm, connected to that box through ssh
10:52:02 <I440r> can i ssh to that box?
10:52:19 <Herkamire> I've got 1.08b
10:52:45 <I440r> thats the latest :)
11:03:18 <dsmith> I440r: x86 is yucky
11:03:29 <dsmith> I440r: I liked the 68k myself
11:04:27 <I440r> i like all asm
11:04:28 <I440r> x86
11:04:30 <I440r> 68k
11:04:32 <I440r> 8051 :)
11:04:35 <I440r> 6502 :)))
11:04:41 <I440r> hell even nec 75x is fun :)
11:05:18 <dsmith> I440r: it's asm that's bad, it's the processor archetecture.
11:05:34 <dsmith> I440r: it's NOT asm that's bad, it's the processor archetecture.
11:05:57 <I440r> heh i dont mind it myself
11:06:05 <I440r> tho - its not exactly the best ive ever seen :)
11:06:50 <dsmith> I440r: I guess I still have flashbacks to that bad old dos days of 64k segments. Ugh.
11:07:21 <I440r> well. i have a big thing against dos programs that are bigger than 10k or 11k
11:07:34 <I440r> any bigger than that and it shows how LAME its author is
11:07:43 <I440r> 2984569345432 gig programs in dos are REALY fucking lame
11:07:43 <dsmith> heh
11:07:47 <I440r> 64k is plenty
11:08:41 <dsmith> I'm not talking code size, I mean data size.
11:09:12 <dsmith> I used to use a dos editor that was limited to 64k files.
11:09:43 <dsmith> It was a paing when you ewanted to edit a file from someone else.
11:09:52 <I440r> multi edit is a good dos editor
11:10:14 <I440r> it does page swapping automatically on your file so you can have 2746293569823498234 gig files with it heh
11:10:55 <dsmith> I440r: but writing an editor like that in x86 asm (non 386) is a real pain.
11:12:06 <I440r> heh
11:12:15 <dsmith> I couldn't beleive how less stressful working in 68k was.
11:12:22 <I440r> writing an editor is a pain no matter what language you use :P
11:12:33 <dsmith> It was like life itself.
11:35:38 <I440r> brb
11:35:40 <I440r> making coffee
11:45:36 <I440r> back
12:23:35 <dsmith> Mmmm. Coffee
12:28:17 <tathi> I440r: you know what the difference between the mmap and mmap2 syscalls is, by any chance?
12:30:27 <I440r> yes
12:30:43 <I440r> th eoriginal mmap passed parameters through a structure
12:30:49 <I440r> mmap2 does it all thru registers
12:30:52 <I440r> i believe
12:31:19 <tathi> hmm
12:34:57 <tathi> well, I think PPC does all syscall stuff through registers, so I'll just go grep my kernel sources then...
12:36:53 <I440r> man 2 mmap
12:36:55 <I440r> man 2 mmap2
12:37:41 <tathi> aha, mmap2 takes an offset (into the file) in pages
12:37:57 <tathi> whereas mmap takes a byte offset and bitches at you if it's not page-aligned :)
12:38:23 <tathi> heh, tried the manpages, I don't seem to have them
12:38:30 <I440r> lol
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14:52:04 <Speuler> night all
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16:01:47 <rob_ert> Hejsan :)
16:02:04 <jamc> ho ho
16:22:11 <Etaoin> hello, all
16:23:42 <rob_ert> Hi :)
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18:51:15 <rob_ert> Hey.
18:51:34 <rob_ert> I'm writing a forth-style bytecode interpreter for 16f84 PICs :)
18:51:49 <I440r> cool
18:52:18 <rob_ert> Grr...
18:52:23 <rob_ert> Sun is already rising.
18:52:33 <rob_ert> And I haven't even written half of it :(
18:53:05 <I440r> lol
19:57:43 <n_> 16f84 pics?
19:57:47 <n_> what are they used in?
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22:59:09 <CrowKiller> damn keyboard polling code, i cant get it to work
22:59:24 <CrowKiller> i dont want to use interrupts, only polling, and my code crash
22:59:42 <CrowKiller> the PC each time
23:00:01 <CrowKiller> really starting to piss me off, all the docs on the internet dont even tell how to do this
23:00:38 <n_> are you trying to write some kind of OS?
23:01:30 <CrowKiller> forth system ;p
23:01:52 <CrowKiller> its impossible to do i tried it all
23:02:07 <CrowKiller> the only thing i didnt tries was disabling the interrupt
23:02:17 <CrowKiller> by issuing a command to to the controller
23:02:26 <CrowKiller> the very first line in my code is cli
23:02:35 <CrowKiller> no interrupts at all
23:08:04 <CrowKiller> àll the code on the net that I see
23:08:09 <CrowKiller> not only from google
23:08:18 <CrowKiller> from every site is erroneous
23:08:30 <CrowKiller> only one html version of pc guide got the correct infos
23:08:35 <n_> why concern yourself with such pc-centric crap?
23:08:39 <CrowKiller> but isnt showing any real example
23:08:53 <CrowKiller> because thats the crap i got in front of me
23:08:58 <CrowKiller> and it should be already done
23:08:59 <n_> if you are going to port this thing to real machines, as you should if you want to make a decent system... you won't even have to deal with PC architectures issues like this
23:09:06 <CrowKiller> and accessible to the general public
23:09:21 <CrowKiller> my forth wont go over an os
23:09:43 <CrowKiller> never, it doesnt need it, its an os! a programmer's os
23:09:47 <CrowKiller> that he build himself
23:11:11 <CrowKiller> if Zen is like Forth, then i'm seeking for the Truth, bypassing the illusions imposed by my perceptions of things
23:11:44 <CrowKiller> that's truly the way to go
23:12:05 <CrowKiller> and i really dont like losing time when i dotn have much
23:12:35 <CrowKiller> i've lost enough time I want to code inside my OWN implementation of my language, for the  first thing
23:13:09 <CrowKiller> and secondly I want total dynamism, by forth code compiled on the fly
23:13:23 <CrowKiller> i really mean on the fly, noi more stored object code
23:14:06 <CrowKiller> write all your programs and then setup the compilers appended to the source files
23:14:20 <CrowKiller> where to compile the code in memory
23:14:45 <CrowKiller> the compiler should a parametrizable macro
23:15:13 <CrowKiller>              should be
23:26:58 <CrowKiller> ill lokk into the code of allegro game library
23:27:04 <CrowKiller> they have a polling routine for the keyboard
23:27:06 --- quit: CrowKiller ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.03