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18:10:35 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
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18:40:53 <TheBlueWizard> hiya tathi
18:41:14 <tathi> hey
18:41:17 <tathi> what's up?
18:42:37 <TheBlueWizard> watching TV, reading ./, etc
18:44:29 * tathi is playing around with the linux framebuffer stuff
18:46:14 <TheBlueWizard> video framebuffer?
18:46:18 <tathi> yeah
18:47:00 <tathi> I was trying to think of something to do with my forth
18:47:08 <tathi> and most of the things I came up with involved graphics
18:47:19 <tathi> and I don't want to go to all the hassle of installing X
18:48:14 <TheBlueWizard> so you're using libsvga?
18:49:13 <tathi> no, I couldn't get that to compile
18:49:24 <tathi> I get the impression it's mostly an x86 platform thing
18:50:30 <tathi> using ioctl's to get the size of /dev/fb0 and mmap-ing it
18:51:24 <tathi> the kernel has some pretty neat stuff all on its own...I don't know why people bother with all these fancy libraries :)
18:56:14 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...I haven't played with anything graphics...in fact I don't have X Windows on my Linux laptop...though I think I do have libsvga installed....
18:57:50 <tathi> so what do you play around with?
18:59:37 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...various things...but developing my code, mostly...right now I am coding up something in Python...it is quite compilcated (right now I'm sorta stuck, trying to figure out the best way to code certain actions)
19:01:51 <tathi> what kind of thing?
19:02:18 <tathi> or don't/can't/won't you talk about it?
19:04:19 <TheBlueWizard> ok....I personally want to surprise someone with it, but I guess I can discuss it
19:05:21 <tathi> whatever...I'm just curious.
19:05:43 <tathi> You're not around here much, at least when I am, and I have no idea what kind of stuff you're interested in...
19:06:48 <TheBlueWizard> it is a visual algebraic (future: more fancy math stuff like differentiation, matrix, tensor, summation) editor and manipulator, with output in several formats.  It is console and ncurses based.  the problem I'm having right now is to implement cursor movement and highlighting logic
19:07:14 <TheBlueWizard> my interest is of a rather random nature hehe
19:08:27 <tathi> very cool
19:09:06 <tathi> heh, yeah, I don't like writing cursor movement stuff at all
19:12:20 <TheBlueWizard> cursor movement for a typical text editor isn't hard...but for a "2D" math expression, it can get real tricky - fast! :)   but I *really* need that app, cuz I'm tired of juggling all those mat expressions using paper and pen, and I want to control every facet of manipulations and/or editing....AFAIK there is no console/ncurses based visual math editor/manipulator app
19:16:41 <tathi> yeah, I can see how that would be tricky
19:18:24 <tathi> you planning on making it available when you get it working?
19:18:44 <TheBlueWizard> yes...it will be GPL'd
19:19:06 <tathi> cool, I could definitely use something like that occasionally
19:19:26 <TheBlueWizard> the 2D expression printing is already completed (for a while anyway :)....
19:20:13 <TheBlueWizard> I could hilite various elements in the expression...not hard at all...but to add cursor movement...I hadn't expect it to be this hard
19:20:18 <tathi> just that letting you move around and insert things in random places and do what the user wants it to do isn't easy? :)
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19:21:32 <TheBlueWizard> yes...that's the goal...and it has to be validated in the end, without confuzzling the program :)
19:22:35 <TheBlueWizard> at least you now know the problem I am facing :)
19:23:35 <tathi> yeah...good luck (you may need it) ;)
19:27:13 <TheBlueWizard> thanks...I have gone thru three approaces, each with pluses and minuses...to complicate the picture, each node of a tree that represents an expression can be, and has to be anything, thus I'm virtually forced to use OO technique to do cursor movements there...exactly how is that achieved....aaarggh! :)
19:27:22 <TheBlueWizard> approaches even
19:28:33 <tathi> right
19:29:40 <tathi> well, if you've gone through three approaches, you should be getting fairly close to finding one that works :)
19:30:11 <TheBlueWizard> furthermore, I'm forced to code up a treewalker object, since I need a way to be able to traverse the tree, and stop at any given node...and to make everything work together...and that's just a start! :P
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19:31:04 <CrowKiller> re
19:31:20 <tathi> wb
19:31:23 <TheBlueWizard> maybe...I find that I have to really think through (and visualize) to get that part down right...with several actions going on, it definitely ain't easy
19:32:15 <tathi> yeah, I find when I'm writing editor-type things, everything is so interconnected that I have trouble breaking it down into pieces that fit into my head
19:34:54 <CrowKiller> my forth is centralized around the editor
19:35:17 <CrowKiller> the dictionary stuff is all happening at that time in the dev cycle
19:35:32 <CrowKiller> like in the aha system by jeff Fox
19:35:57 <TheBlueWizard> CrowKiller: I'm talking about my project (console/ncurses based 2D math expression editor and manipulator)
19:36:46 <CrowKiller> my point is that an editor is a primordial pice of software for programmers
19:37:03 <CrowKiller> its hard to coime up with something simple and powerful
19:37:35 <CrowKiller> ill try to keep stuff as simple as possible
19:37:53 <CrowKiller> because I have a clear picture of my system but the editor is still fuzzy though
19:38:17 <CrowKiller> thebluewizard: does it uses RPN?
19:39:30 <TheBlueWizard> no...as I said, a 2D (meaning visual) math expression editor/manipulator
19:40:03 <CrowKiller> i have to see that in action then
19:42:27 <TheBlueWizard> the goal is to replace paper and pen writeups...yeah...the basic machinery (printing out 2D expressions) is already coded up...but cursor movements, highlighting (fundamental parts for both editing and manipulating), I'm currently stumped...I kinda worked out the manipulation part, and have a vague idea how to do the editing, but I'm sure there hundreds pitfalls involved :)
19:43:12 <TheBlueWizard> the reason I need this is that I need to deal with expressions involving possibly hundreds of terms...see the problem now?
19:43:45 <tathi> TBW: you doing physics or something, that you have expressions that big?
19:44:04 <TheBlueWizard> and I need to maniplate them exactly what I want; I do not want a typical "let the computer simplify everything out" approach
19:44:09 <CrowKiller> expression that big are simpler when using rpn IMHO though i never worked with them
19:45:04 <TheBlueWizard> the problem that I am facing right now is just pure math, no physics angle involved...but could apply to physics as well :)
19:48:08 <TheBlueWizard> um...I have to say that it is much harder to "see" the expressions using rpn syntax...for example, consider 3/x + 4/(x+1) and I want to add them together, getting (3*(x+1) + 4*x) / (x*(x+1)).  would it be clearer if one use rpn syntax?
19:49:45 <tathi> heh
19:50:18 <CrowKiller> it would be faster, easier to process, and maybe by finding the way to program them in an instant forth program you could harness the computational power at hand more efficiently
19:50:46 <CrowKiller> its hard but i'm sure there's a way, much like adding clarity by defining words
19:50:58 <CrowKiller> to me its all the same
19:51:04 <TheBlueWizard> the first expression would be 3 x / 4 x 1 + / +, and the second would be 2 x 1 + * 4 x * + x x 1 + * /
19:51:09 <CrowKiller> sorry, i see forth programs everywhere
19:51:56 <CrowKiller> i know one program doing this thing
19:51:59 <CrowKiller> its called mathematica
19:52:00 <TheBlueWizard> lol...I also want the expression outputted in 2D form suitable for emailing, whatever...that part is basically done now
19:52:01 <CrowKiller> ;p
19:52:48 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, Mathematica does that, but it isn't what I want, actually, because it tries to do everything for you, which isn't what I want at all
19:54:18 <CrowKiller> i never used it
19:54:31 <TheBlueWizard> neither do I :)
19:54:43 <CrowKiller> but the mathematical site devoted to it is so precise this software must be good
19:55:30 <TheBlueWizard> I just want a program that lets me have the total control over the look and form, without the pains of keeping track of everything, like a minus sign :)
19:56:21 <TheBlueWizard> it may be good for many things, but everything?  nah, and besides, it ain't libre
19:58:26 <TheBlueWizard> and I heard Mathematica has an annoying registration process (true, it's a one time thing...but that's per install)
19:58:51 <TheBlueWizard> and besides, I like to code!  and learn new things to boot! :)
19:59:13 <CrowKiller> me too
19:59:25 <CrowKiller> i just finished a forth system for the AVR chips
19:59:37 <CrowKiller> and i've find out the forth virtual machine is flawed
19:59:46 <CrowKiller> not flawed
19:59:50 <CrowKiller> but I would add
19:59:54 <CrowKiller> a working register
20:00:03 <CrowKiller> let name it W
20:00:11 <CrowKiller> aside from the two stacks
20:00:35 <CrowKiller> The top of stack isnt the default location to put litterals
20:00:43 <CrowKiller> and do very volatile stuff
20:00:48 <CrowKiller> like I/0
20:00:51 <CrowKiller> I/O
20:01:23 <CrowKiller> a scrach register, much like a blank sheet of paper aside when doing a math exam
20:01:24 <TheBlueWizard> that arch is a bit odd...
20:01:40 <CrowKiller> a lot of stuff happen to be calculated in my TI-83 plus
20:01:53 <CrowKiller> but i often need the paper
20:01:57 <CrowKiller> ugly analogy
20:02:01 <CrowKiller> but anyway ;p
20:02:17 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
20:09:11 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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