00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.26 00:18:08 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:18:25 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Client Quit) 00:44:47 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:45:03 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Client Quit) 01:42:47 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:15:05 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:15:26 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Client Quit) 02:31:34 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:50:55 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:51:08 hi 02:51:20 Hi serg. 02:51:41 hi 02:52:00 i foound #forth at efnet ;) 2 men only 02:52:12 Hehe 02:52:15 I was there, too. 02:52:18 Then I left :P 02:55:30 i'll have vacation from 1 jul, and no net ;( 02:55:49 seems our company crashes, and it will be 4ever ;( 02:58:31 --- nick: Serg_peng -> Serg_away 03:05:55 --- nick: Serg_away -> Serg_penguin 03:06:08 that sucks:-( 03:06:35 that rulez ! i was thinking on change job long ago 03:06:45 this will kick my thinking up ;) 03:06:57 sitting in basement w/ rats is no fun 03:07:08 but almost free inet ;) 03:08:40 * Serg_penguin turns head left and sees D00m'ish blood splat.... 03:08:47 we just killed one... 03:19:42 cooool 03:19:53 ;) 03:41:44 --- quit: Serg_penguin ("maybe, boss on the horizon...") 03:44:45 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:58:16 --- quit: Serg_peng ("bye, work") 04:12:40 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:12:59 --- quit: Serg_peng (Client Quit) 04:45:25 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-2pool111-63.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:02:35 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:02:49 hi 05:03:32 zzz 05:03:38 hi 05:03:43 hi 05:30:59 --- quit: Serg_peng ("maybe, boss on the horizon...") 05:37:25 --- join: dsmith (~dsmith@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth 05:49:29 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:51:49 hi 05:57:20 Hej. 06:12:30 --- quit: Serg_peng ("maybe, boss on the horizon...") 06:17:44 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:40:24 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:41:14 we vere talking abt some forths based on colorforth 06:41:26 can u gimme an url's to download ? 06:45:14 * rob_ert has no idea :( 06:46:20 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 06:53:05 --- quit: Serg_peng ("maybe, boss on the horizon...") 07:22:27 Enth/Flux is the only one I know, and it's linked to from retro.tunes.org 09:30:41 * dsmith is away: food 09:56:56 --- join: thefox (fox@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 09:56:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thefox 09:57:07 Hey thefox :) 09:58:04 what is new? 09:58:23 New? In #forth? Heh... 09:59:06 Silent, today. 09:59:34 anyone read c.l.f? 09:59:53 Negative. 10:00:14 I thought the thread, what does Forth fix?, was very entertaining. 10:00:52 I was asked to ask Chuck what he would say. Forth fixed the megasoftware problem. ;-) 10:01:12 not much you can say to that. 10:01:22 * cleverdra nods. 10:01:59 Megasoftware problem? 10:02:13 it is very politically incorrect thing to say in a place like c.l.f 10:02:13 My favorite is "Other languages are black boxes." 10:02:41 I thought other languages (and OS) are black boxes was a good answer. 10:04:24 I expected someone to say "what megasoftware problem is that?" but the only such response so far in c.l.f was that there was not much of a megasoftware problem in the sixties. (not on PCs at least! ;-) 10:05:19 Many people do not question that it takes mega software to write ." hello world" today in most environments. 10:05:35 I think rob_ert just asked that, actually. 10:05:55 Mmm... 1000 MB C++ compiler. 10:06:00 There's certainly more to ." hello world" than meets the eye. 10:07:17 It is pervasive, most people have never seen an alternative, but Chuck just keeps trying to make his point that most people just accept that everything takes 100 times more work when you make everything 100 times more work. 10:07:41 rob_ert - 1GB seems a little large =) 10:08:35 What about the 6 gigabyte compilers. On my last project they installed six copies on the machine 10:08:38 trying to get it to work. 10:09:27 Chuck is going to have to start calling it gigasoftware. 10:09:41 Here was a desire of mine, before I learned Forth: to write an interface, that would have one line user input and the rest of the screen for program output. The output has ESC[2J and such codes in it, so I wanted to print those normally so that the console would take care of them. This was a very difficult task -- I never actually managed it. 10:10:00 thefox - gigabyte compilers actually exist? What are they doing with all that? 10:10:45 Libraries, headers? 10:10:53 a gigabyte? 10:10:57 I was thinking of MSVC++ and such. 10:11:00 hardware compilers, vhdl, verilog, chip simulation etc. 10 CD install proceedure 10:11:00 Why not? :) 10:11:09 Man... 10 CDs... 10:11:57 That's not counting a couple of CD for the OS and a couple for the C compiler either. 10:12:51 Regarding that interface -- it's actually an incredibly trivial thing to do (as it ought to have been, then!). I could do it in a block of Forth, and with that knowledge I could have done it in any of the languages I was using at the time, instead of messing with these horrible C libraries: ncurses, slang, etc. 10:12:52 ." Hello World" will be about 1 megabyte executable on top of all that. 10:13:18 thefox - why the executable so large? 10:13:25 the market 10:14:05 would you expect less for $50,000 to $500,000? Value is related to code size. 10:14:24 Heh. 10:15:11 Are you really saying that the executable is a megabyte because a megabyte to do such a simple thing because the market is more impressed? 10:15:23 ack. 10:15:35 is a megabyte because the market is impressed by a megabyte to do such a simple thing? 10:16:10 I can tell lots of stories from my days as a consultant to Bank of America and Pacific Bell that explain why the big money drives this trend. 10:16:22 * cleverdra nods. 10:16:47 I've seen them on c.l.f and elsewhere. They're certainly interesting. 10:17:12 I can tell lots of stories from my days with chip development and NASA and parallel computing and grand challange problems funded by our tax money that are the same thing. 10:18:14 By _your_ tax money. Sweden don't try to send men to the moon :) 10:18:21 doesn't* 10:18:22 The people getting the money don't like when people point out that a demo HELLOWORLD program requires dozens of pages of source code and a multimegabyte executable. 10:19:07 PCs waste more electricity every year than it cost to send men to the moon. 10:19:32 You don't send a billion people to the moon every year, 10:19:33 hum. Actually, I haven't heard a story of yours that shows how big money drives code-size. Certainly run-time. 10:19:52 And our electric rates went up by a factor of 10 last year! 10:20:06 Heh. 10:21:22 Hm, how many countries have sent people to the moon? 10:21:54 * rob_ert counts to one. 10:22:20 tsk. 10:23:55 * dsmith is back (gone 00:53:14) 10:24:27 I don't much like John Dvorak particularly because of the way he was paid to write such dreadful jokes about Forth that many people took seriously. But I did enjoy an essay he did one day about Windows and Java and the marketplace. 10:27:18 --- join: horvaths (horvaths@solyom.sth.sze.hu) joined #forth 10:27:20 Let the 4th be with you! 10:27:29 Yes, sir! 10:29:17 hm, John Dvorak of cluetrain? 10:30:44 woopsy, he is anti-cluetrain. 10:32:05 he used to write for one of the major magazines, his column was on the last page, John's last column... 10:33:24 he used to repeat the most negative soundbytes, Forth isn't a programming language, Forth is really a religion. He has also said that, no decent program has ever been written in Forth, and Forth stinks. 10:33:44 That is all most people know about Forth 10:34:47 Doesn't say much for him or what credibility I should give him. 10:35:02 But then, reading this article of is, he seems to be mostly a humorist. 10:35:34 If you just take it as humor it is ok. He is paid to write humor, not hate speech. 10:42:17 addios.... 12 hours before my flight... see you in california 10:42:33 http://www.crossroad.to/Books/YourChildNewAge/YCNA-11.html -- how games and toys manipulate the imagination 10:42:33 Bye davidw :) 10:42:37 bye, davidw. 10:42:40 --- part: davidw left #forth 10:42:42 enjoy the flight 10:42:59 Heh.. Flying from Europe to California... *shrug* 10:43:27 It would be much easier to search for Forth-related webpages if you could do a CASE-SENSITIVE search. 10:45:04 Can't google do that? 10:45:14 I think Google can. 10:47:22 but even then, it was FORTH originally. Today it is Forth, ...forth ...Forth etc. and the word "forth" appears in lots of phrases not related to our language. 10:47:39 And of course the stuff that you find on the web about Forth .... 10:53:59 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 10:54:14 there is much stuff easily available about Forth on the web than was available when there were just Forth conferences and a few books. 10:54:32 that was unavilable that is 10:54:42 unavailable! 10:55:12 But I think that there are many more bad examples than good examples. 10:58:12 that's the problem with the web in general :) 10:59:12 Who was the guy that promoted/pushed/implemented/whatever the openboot than Sun has? 11:00:23 * dsmith couldn't remember his name. 11:01:54 * tathi can't remember exactly either 11:02:04 michaelc, michaelw, something like that... 11:04:25 mitch bradley 11:04:29 Yes! 11:04:36 Thanks 11:05:22 The name that kept coming to me was Wil Baden, but I knew that wasn't right. 11:05:37 I loved his story about the first time that he gave a talk in the auditorium at Sun about OpenBoot. 11:07:06 It was the last time that he ever used the 'F' word when talking about it. The C programmers hated the word Forth so much that they almost booed him out of the room. After that he always called it just OpenBoot. 11:07:33 heh 11:09:16 --- quit: cleverdra (Connection timed out) 11:18:21 off to do some errands, bye all 11:18:29 --- quit: thefox () 11:48:18 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-73.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 12:00:08 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise OutOfInternet") 12:30:19 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust87.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 12:31:23 brb 12:32:18 Hey :) 12:45:25 back 12:45:29 hi 12:48:04 * rob_ert uses evil CSS and PHP for his CGI, since IsForth couldn't do it ;) 12:48:06 well 12:48:11 It's not really CGI anymore. 12:48:17 And I stole the CSS stuff. 12:48:24 But I got a nice-looking page :) 12:48:40 http://robert.zizi.org/~robert/main.php for the test site. 12:49:02 heh 12:49:17 i want to make isforth a php replacement some time 12:49:22 but cgi is evil :P 12:49:28 :) 12:49:34 what's wrong with cgi? 12:49:38 Mmm... IsForth + Apache.... 12:49:47 cgi is evil :P 12:49:49 nuff sed 12:50:07 Heh. 12:50:08 for you... 12:50:35 what's wrong with CGI? 12:50:50 do you think if you're going to do that then you should just write your own webserver? 12:51:41 i want to write my own web server 12:51:44 eventually 12:51:49 cool 12:51:54 im not even thinking along these lines yet tho 12:52:00 thers ALOT i want to do with isforth 12:52:05 but its not ready for it yet 12:52:23 i see. 12:52:38 is that your beef with CGI?... that there should only be one program on port 80? 12:53:32 no - cgi would be ok but it wasnt very well thunked out, when i tried to do cgi stuff i kept banging my head against the wall trying to do things that cgi wont allo but SHOULD 12:53:49 i cant remember the details, it was like 3 years ago now 12:53:58 i lost interest in cgi soon after that 12:54:44 wierd. the only thing I thought was screwy was that some information was available only as environmental variables. 12:56:04 stdin is the request from the browser (possibly without the headers) and stdout is sent directly to the browser 12:56:06 I think that's how it works. 13:01:41 do you have any sort of threading or co-operative multitasking planned or implemented in isforth? 13:02:36 brb 13:03:03 Oh, multitasking is no problem. 13:04:30 That is, a round-robin multitasking system is trivial to implement. 13:04:47 it will be done using clone and fork 13:05:16 You're going to add preemptive threading then, I440r? 13:05:18 i gotta go moe a little more grass heh 13:05:20 yes 13:05:27 and cooperative 13:05:28 both 13:05:43 You're going to implement cooperative threading in terms of clone and fork? 13:16:13 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 13:24:04 erm no heh 13:24:10 in terms of forth code :P 13:42:54 --- quit: I440r ("bbl") 14:34:09 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.4) joined #forth 14:34:13 'oi 14:55:07 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:57:33 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:00:08 there's a chess match going on ... Athlon against Intel :) 15:00:16 ne1 interested in url ? 15:00:25 (live, java) 15:18:37 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 15:37:25 --- quit: horvaths ("BitchX: don't leave home without it!") 16:26:05 That's ridiculous? What does processor architecture have to do with chess? 16:41:43 --- quit: dsmith (Remote closed the connection) 17:17:22 --- quit: air (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:27:45 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 18:22:49 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 18:43:56 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 19:04:40 --- quit: futhin ("gtg") 19:48:29 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 20:20:16 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth 21:33:18 --- join: sbk_ (~kbs@dsl-65-184-98-221.telocity.com) joined #forth 21:33:53 --- quit: sbk_ (Client Quit) 21:55:24 --- join: Soap- (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:55:40 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 22:07:07 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise KeyError, "I'll bet that's the last time you lock them in the car..."") 22:40:54 --- quit: Soap- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:54:14 --- join: Serg_peng (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 23:02:11 --- quit: Serg_peng (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:56:22 --- join: n_ (dz93dw@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:56:26 hi 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.06.26