00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.25
00:01:40 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit)
00:05:04 <kc5tja> Going to bed.
00:05:14 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
00:27:57 --- join: Serg_penguin (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
00:52:44 --- quit: Serg_penguin ()
01:02:12 --- join: Serg_penguin (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
02:15:39 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
02:16:26 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement)))
02:17:26 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Client Quit)
02:46:40 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
02:49:08 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:49:15 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
02:49:31 <Serg_penguin_> re hi
02:58:49 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ ()
03:09:38 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth
03:12:11 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-154.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
03:12:21 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
03:15:04 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
03:15:06 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
03:46:50 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth
03:46:52 <Stepan> hi :)
03:47:50 <rob_ert> Hi :)
03:52:17 <Stepan> 0 > s" constant" $find   ok
03:52:22 <Stepan> 3 > .s  120019b88 0 -1  ok
03:52:39 <Stepan> this looks wrong, does it not?
03:55:28 <onetom> not really...
03:55:59 <onetom> hi, anyway :)
03:56:15 <onetom> u havent been a long time here
03:56:30 <rob_ert> Hey onetom :)
03:57:51 <davidw> I hate writing..argh
03:58:09 <rob_ert> :/
03:58:10 <rob_ert> Well
03:58:12 <rob_ert> I'm leaving.
03:58:23 <rob_ert> : :) bye ;
03:58:24 <rob_ert> :)
03:58:25 <davidw> I mean handwriting
03:58:26 <davidw> ciao rob_ert
04:02:29 <Stepan> hey onetom :)
04:02:45 <Stepan> IEEE says: $find  ( name-str name-len -- xt true | name-str name-len false )
04:03:21 <Stepan> onetom: so it looks like there is a 0 too much on the stack
04:04:39 <Stepan> any ideas on namespaces in dictionaries and how to implement it? 
04:05:51 <Stepan> I thought about keeping a pointer to dictionary start in every word header and have a variable CURRENT-DICT so in case a word matches I need to do an additional compare on that field
04:19:13 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
04:19:16 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.111) joined #forth
04:24:24 <Stepan> hmm :)
04:37:43 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool36-68.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
05:29:28 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
05:29:46 <Serg_penguin_> hi
05:30:12 <rob_ert> Hi
05:30:21 <Serg_penguin_> hi
05:30:38 <Serg_penguin_> i advanced in my parser a bit more
05:30:49 <Serg_penguin_> i made it work on dos dpmi32 forth
05:31:09 <onetom> k, tell us more about it
05:31:27 <Serg_penguin_> : nl? >in @ #tib ( not span!!! ) @ = ;
05:31:50 <Serg_penguin_> with span instead of #tib, it worked on console but stopped in INCLUDE
05:32:20 <Serg_penguin_> and i renamed tag braces
05:32:28 <Serg_penguin_> was < >, now { }
05:32:50 <Serg_penguin_> both take SHIFT + keystroke, but latter doesn't conflict w/html
05:33:12 <onetom> { } r used 4 locals anyway, tho they r not recommmended
05:33:36 <Serg_penguin_> and does'nt mess w/ 'greater' & 'lesser'
05:35:05 <Serg_penguin_> dunno use locals
05:35:23 <Serg_penguin_> they point to poor factorisation
05:36:43 <Serg_penguin_> and lead to cashe misses, redusing speed
05:37:27 <Serg_penguin_> next i'll vectorize TYPE 
05:38:05 <Serg_penguin_> so i'll not only echo, but write to files or render grafically, to screen or to file
05:39:30 <onetom> what do u mean by render graphically?
05:39:55 <Serg_penguin_> draw on bitmap in fancy way
05:40:23 <Serg_penguin_> draw _text_ on bitmap
05:40:39 <onetom> c
05:40:51 <Serg_penguin_> or typeset ( TeX, beware ! ;)
05:40:54 <onetom> i also plan 2 play w thing like that
05:41:13 <Serg_penguin_> for what purpouse ? 
05:41:26 <Serg_penguin_> i started for web site geneRATion
05:41:31 <onetom> id like 2 use the latest enth/flux
05:41:48 <Serg_penguin_> what-what ?
05:41:57 <onetom> it boots into 800x600xtruecolor
05:42:25 * Serg_penguin_ may crash suddenly if boss will be detected
05:42:37 <onetom> 4what? well, id like 2 play w simple graphics algorithms
05:42:48 <cleverdra> Enth/Flux is linked to from the ForthOS link from retro.tunes.org
05:42:56 <Serg_penguin_> a-ah, colorforth ?
05:43:04 <onetom> id like 2 experiment w the creation of simple gui in 4th
05:43:16 <cleverdra> Flux is a color forth, though not colorforth.
05:43:25 <Serg_penguin_> i tried on P166/Riva128 - it messed screen up
05:43:37 <onetom> Serg_penguin_: and enth is a traditional 4th
05:43:49 <cleverdra> I've never gotten Enth 3 to boot on any of my machines.
05:43:49 <Serg_penguin_> now should try on my new P4/AbitBD7/GeForce2Pro
05:44:01 <onetom> it worked on my s3 savage4
05:44:15 <onetom> probably yes, u should :)
05:44:24 <Serg_penguin_> what resolution doses it set ?
05:44:38 <Serg_penguin_> my crt holds only 800x600
05:44:43 <onetom> anyway, id like 2 port it 2 the vmware virtual video driver
05:44:53 <onetom> 800x600, sure
05:45:25 <Serg_penguin_> maybe, i'll download both and try...
05:45:34 <onetom> :) imean, ..port 2 vm vid drv 2 enth
05:45:42 <onetom> both?
05:45:43 <davidw> you want a PC forth/OS ?
05:45:44 <davidw> try ZOG
05:45:49 <onetom> they r tied up
05:46:01 <onetom> 2gather
05:46:15 <onetom> davidw: url?
05:46:16 <cleverdra> davidw - onetom wants to play with graphics and GUI.
05:46:18 <Serg_penguin_> pse repeat, w/ links if u can
05:46:26 <Serg_penguin_> i turned on log
05:46:29 <cleverdra> onetom - ZOG is also linked to from the ForthOS link from retro.tunes.org
05:46:31 <davidw> onetom: dedasys.com/freesoftware/
05:46:48 <davidw> cleverdra: so, he can write some graphics code in forth;-)
05:47:31 <Serg_penguin_> my dos dpmi32 forth has good VESA lib, so i can even now ;)
05:47:48 <Serg_penguin_> but no sound ;(
05:47:52 <cleverdra> yeah, but he'll have to figure out how to switch to 800x600x32.
05:48:10 <onetom> or even, 1024x768 ;)
05:48:15 <Serg_penguin_> SETGRAPHMODE ;)
05:48:21 <onetom> :)
05:49:00 <onetom> 1st of all, id like 2 figure out how does enth handles graphics
05:49:17 <cleverdra> You can look into source.f for that.
05:49:24 <Serg_penguin_> separate lib for every rez/bitdepth, or all togever w/ some helper/swithcer words and switching vocabularies
05:49:46 <cleverdra> 'least, I think you can.  If source.f has been blockified, you might want to scratch up a block-viewer.
05:50:16 <Serg_penguin_> VESA800X600X24 SETGRAPHMODE ;)
05:51:20 * Serg_penguin_ uses console and has no interest in GUI
05:52:48 * Serg_penguin_ needs stupid typesetting to GIF filez for stupid lammerz who dunno ever know what hell PostScript is ;(
05:53:45 <Serg_penguin_> some adv newspapers here accept only GIF or JPG by email ...
05:55:11 <Serg_penguin_> he-e-e-ey !
05:59:00 <Serg_penguin_> so, what u will suggest for my (would be) parser/macroprocessor ?
05:59:10 <onetom> cleverdra: sure, sure, im not dumb, just dont have enough time, and
05:59:52 <onetom> cleverdra: problems always arise, like that uve just mentioned
06:00:18 <onetom> Serg_penguin_: what should i suggest?
06:00:24 <Serg_penguin_> what problem i just mentioned ? premature exits of { ?
06:00:35 <onetom> eg, show me usage examples
06:01:32 <Serg_penguin_> { #define title " Calculation of YAGI antenna " }
06:01:50 <Serg_penguin_> { include syshead.hd }
06:02:03 <Serg_penguin_> { include face.ht }
06:02:13 <Serg_penguin_> { include navbar.ht }
06:02:40 <Serg_penguin_> { include pagetop.ht }
06:03:01 <onetom> its c embraced in curly baraces line-by-line :/
06:03:08 <Serg_penguin_> somethere in face or pagestart, previously defined TITLE is used....
06:03:26 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () { printf("foo"); } }
06:03:56 <Serg_penguin_> maybe only starting and ending... it works over newline
06:04:35 <Serg_penguin_> what else do you need in such site-building utility ?
06:05:03 <Serg_penguin_>  or CGI program ?
06:05:32 <Serg_penguin_> i see only obvious include and define
06:05:57 <cleverdra> Maybe you should use begin-of-line tags, like @BEGIN and @END, and only accept those when they're at the beginning of a line.  Maybe have ${foo bar} within a line read 'foo' as Forth.
06:06:06 <cleverdra> s/read 'foo' //
06:06:54 <Serg_penguin_> dunno understand
06:06:57 <cleverdra> @BEGIN
06:07:03 <cleverdra> #define title " Calc"
06:07:06 <cleverdra> include syshead.hd
06:07:09 <cleverdra> include face.ht
06:07:17 <Serg_penguin_> ok,ok
06:07:27 <cleverdra> @END
06:07:37 <cleverdra> : foo bar ;
06:08:07 <cleverdra> @BEGIN
06:08:31 <Serg_penguin_> @BEGIN = {
06:08:37 <cleverdra> include $"{ strings cell+ cell+ @ }.ht
06:08:39 <Serg_penguin_> @END = }
06:09:05 <cleverdra> where $"{ } excepts Forth code that leaves an address on the stack, which would be a counted string.
06:09:26 <cleverdra> or maybe an ANS string would be easier.
06:09:50 <cleverdra> Serg - the problem with } placed anywhere is, how do you manage with } in the document?
06:09:56 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () { printf("foo"); } }
06:10:16 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () { printf("foo"); }
06:10:16 <cleverdra> }
06:10:29 <Serg_penguin_> maybe, rewrite WORD to escape it by slash
06:10:43 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () { printf("foo}"); }
06:10:44 <cleverdra> }
06:10:44 <Serg_penguin_> if u need slash, u double it ;)
06:10:46 <davidw> <? ?> are the correct tags to use for processing instructions
06:11:09 <Serg_penguin_> but TWO keystrokes ....
06:11:24 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () { printf("foo\\\\bar\\\\baz\}"); \} }
06:11:51 <cleverdra> serg - this'll make your C code a little hard to read.  Do you really want to have to backslash every }?
06:12:12 <cleverdra> serg - and what if you're adding some Forth preprocessing to existing C code?
06:13:25 <cleverdra> : unixkey key dup 0< if bye then ; : fixkey unixkey dup [char] } = if [char] \ emit then ;  : fixfile begin fixkey emit again ;
06:13:40 <Serg_penguin_> maybe, change tag braces on-the-fly ?
06:13:46 <cleverdra> It'll be somewhat difficult to extract the Forth from this, later.
06:14:22 <cleverdra> serg - so, you would rather have to write in non-C?
06:14:38 <cleverdra> { void pr_foo () [[ printf("foo]bar]baz"); ] }
06:14:48 <cleverdra> foo]]bar]]baz, I mean
06:14:54 <cleverdra> that's especially clear, in the string!
06:15:07 * Serg_penguin_ uses native tools for all languages
06:15:18 <Serg_penguin_> C preprocessor for C etc...
06:15:20 <cleverdra> And you'll have to find a way to allow ]] (or WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE) in the text as well
06:15:48 * cleverdra shrugs at Serg.
06:15:54 <Serg_penguin_> i think - braces and escape shangeable on the fly
06:15:57 <Serg_penguin_> wait....
06:16:01 <onetom> :( dont have much time now, tho im in arguing mood
06:16:26 <onetom> so, sorry 2 being so silent
06:18:19 <Serg_penguin_> damn, sorry, hardware failure
06:18:37 <Serg_penguin_> my blasted flop failed, need to turn off and fix
06:18:59 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ ()
06:38:57 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
06:39:10 <Serg_penguin_> re hi
06:39:19 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth
06:40:44 <Serg_penguin_> so what about changing braces and 'escape' char on the fly ?
06:40:59 <cleverdra> I think it's stupid, but that's just me.
06:41:01 <cleverdra> http://wso.williams.edu/~dgambrel/catgirl/cgoed.gif
06:41:27 <Serg_penguin_> have problems w/ web
06:41:38 <Serg_penguin_> logging proxy/firewall ;(
06:46:06 <Serg_penguin_> since i wanna preprocess html ,  { } are no problem
06:46:35 <Serg_penguin_> w/ C , i satisfied by standart preprocessor
06:47:36 <Serg_penguin_> what do u think, how should i do #define
06:47:41 <cleverdra> <verbatim>{}}}{{}{}{}{ }}} {}{</verbatim>
06:48:18 <cleverdra> serg - how you did it earlier seems sensible.
06:48:31 * cleverdra hums.
06:48:41 <cleverdra> Or maybe you want $"{ } syntax?
06:48:56 <Serg_penguin_> PLAIN: PLAIN; ?
06:49:27 <cleverdra> sconstant site-name " Gigoplex Particpulator"
06:49:56 <cleverdra> { <title>$"{site-name}</title> }
06:50:01 * cleverdra shrugs at Serg.
06:50:12 <Serg_penguin_> shrugs ?????
06:50:37 <davidw> let me repeat this:
06:50:42 <cleverdra> Serg - I mean, I don't know, that would work I guess.
06:50:49 <davidw> <? ?> are the correct tags to use for processing instructions
06:51:15 <Serg_penguin_> but they take TWO keystrokes, too much !
06:51:46 <Serg_penguin_> peple who write html, use cpecial editors to eliminate even < and >
06:51:53 <cleverdra> : sconstant create here >r char word count dup 1+ allot dup r@ c! r> 1+ swap move does> count ;
06:52:17 <davidw> Serg_penguin_: I don't care if they are too little or two much.  They are *correct*
06:52:46 <Serg_penguin_> but anything should be practical
06:53:12 <Serg_penguin_> four extra strokes per tag is not, w/ SHIFT
06:53:43 <Stepan> whts the best way to find out whether a word whose XT i have on the stack is compile-only?
06:53:43 <Serg_penguin_> people eliminate this by editors wich recognize taggish word and insert braces
06:54:00 <cleverdra> Huh, so why don't you write an editor?
06:54:43 <Serg_penguin_> in HTML, tags are predefined, but in my thing tags will be defined by user, so it's hard to do
06:54:57 <Serg_penguin_> or u can write any forth code in braces
06:55:06 <Serg_penguin_> recognize all forth words ?
06:55:32 <cleverdra> It's not much harder.  Your editor can have a dictionary of tags.
06:55:51 <Serg_penguin_> editor is too great task 4 me ;)
06:55:58 * cleverdra shrugs.
06:56:00 <rob_ert> Hrm.
06:56:05 <rob_ert> I want to write a forth for Minix.
06:56:11 <rob_ert> Doesn't seem to be one :(
06:56:27 <davidw> rob_ert: use ficl
06:56:29 <davidw> it should work
06:56:44 <rob_ert> I tried.
06:56:53 <Serg_penguin_> oh, sorry, i need to run like hell...
06:56:54 <rob_ert> It didn't compile, and I couldn't fix it :/
06:56:56 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ ()
06:56:59 <davidw> yeah, what didn't work?
06:57:12 <rob_ert> Uhm.
06:57:18 <rob_ert> Don't remember.
06:57:34 <rob_ert> Can you write a forth in ANSI C?
06:58:21 <davidw> I thought ficl *was* ansi C
06:58:28 <rob_ert> :)
06:58:29 <cleverdra> Yes, if you accept that I/O will have ANSI C's limitations.
06:58:33 <Stepan> if you use subroutine threading it will be slow with ansi c
06:58:34 <rob_ert> I guess it wasn't ;)
06:58:44 <onetom> rob_ert: what about TILE?
06:58:56 <rob_ert> Never tried it, 1tom.
06:59:06 <onetom> high time ;)
06:59:21 <rob_ert> Hrm.
06:59:31 <rob_ert> Thunderstorm, better log off for a while :)
06:59:34 <rob_ert> bbl
06:59:35 <cleverdra> You really don't want a Forth in ANSI C.  At some point, at least, you should get unbuffered I/O.
06:59:39 <cleverdra> bye, rob_ert.
06:59:43 <rob_ert> cleverdra: I know
06:59:52 <rob_ert> cleverdra: I though about writing one in assembly.
06:59:57 <rob_ert> For Minix.
07:00:06 <onetom> rob_ert: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz
07:00:18 <rob_ert> I'll download it, thanks.
07:00:43 <cleverdra> rob_ert - sigh, you can still write it in C if you want.  Just not totally pure 100% ANSI C -- which nobody in their right mind writes in, anyway.
07:00:51 <onetom> if it complains about unknown  signals, then simply delete them
07:00:58 <onetom> just like i did
07:01:02 <rob_ert> Mkay.
07:01:09 <rob_ert> Well, I'll try that later.
07:01:17 <rob_ert> And I'm not sure I want my Forth in C anyway (:
07:01:21 <onetom> just try it nwo, plz
07:01:32 <onetom> it simply requires make
07:01:39 <onetom> untar & make
07:01:44 <onetom> im curious
07:01:48 <rob_ert> I'll try it later, just shut down my Minix computer :)
07:02:01 <rob_ert> I'll tell you if it works, onetom ;)
07:02:09 --- quit: rob_ert ("leaving")
07:02:22 <davidw> onetom: what is tile anyway?
07:03:10 <onetom> Threaded Interpreted Language Environment
07:03:33 <onetom> its a very cleanly designed & implemented forth
07:03:52 <onetom> w a preemptive multitasking capability
07:04:16 <onetom> and there is a pile of very useful libs 4 it written in 4th
07:04:36 <onetom> and all those r nicely documented & have example code too
07:04:48 <onetom> its written in C
07:05:23 <davidw> interesting
07:05:26 <davidw> license?
07:05:33 <davidw> how does it compare with ficl?
07:05:37 <onetom> gpl iirc
07:05:50 <onetom> simpler, more stable & clean
07:05:59 <onetom> coz its much maller
07:06:02 <onetom> smaller
07:06:17 <davidw> why is it smaller? what does ficl have that tile doesn't?
07:06:45 <onetom> i cant remember ficl that much
07:06:50 <onetom> so i could compare them
07:07:02 <davidw> If I had time, I would download it:-(
07:07:04 <onetom> but have a look 2 tile
07:07:32 <onetom> -rw-rw-r--    1 tom      tom        149007 ÁPR  2 23:24 /home/tom/www/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz
07:07:51 <onetom> it doesnt requires much time 2 dl & examine a lilbit
07:08:26 <davidw> heh, what the heck
07:08:38 <davidw> anything is better than doing work around the house and packing my bags
07:09:04 <davidw> doesn't even compile
07:09:16 <onetom> ?
07:09:26 <onetom> umean, uhave tried it?
07:09:42 <davidw> yep, I just downloaded it
07:09:45 <onetom> anyway, its not much fun compiling it
07:09:47 <davidw> you do some  other no-no's too:
07:09:55 <davidw> in doconvert:
07:09:58 <onetom> but have a look @ the sources
07:10:00 <davidw>     register CHAR c;
07:10:08 <davidw> 	    if (c < 0 || c >= b) {
07:10:09 <onetom> and chkout the lib dir
07:10:48 <davidw> char's can be unsigned
07:10:49 <onetom> just read the filenames in lib & imagine their functionality
07:10:50 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
07:11:08 <onetom> whats the exact error msg?
07:11:49 <davidw> kernel.c:1221: warning: comparison is always false due to limited range of data type
07:11:52 <davidw> that's the problem, thouggh
07:12:05 <davidw> I'm on a powerpc box... unsigned chars
07:12:07 <onetom> its not an error, just a warning :/
07:12:14 <davidw> it is an error
07:12:28 <onetom> but correct the c<0 into c>127
07:12:44 <davidw> I don't think that's right, I think there is a portable way of doing it
07:13:05 <onetom> but shit on compatibility 4 now
07:13:11 <onetom> make it work!
07:13:25 <davidw> if (!(c && 0x80))
07:13:34 <davidw> something like that
07:13:34 <onetom> it s more important than air-castles like compatibility
07:13:52 <davidw> it's not an air castle - it's good programming style
07:14:00 <onetom> (/me wonders why is it more portable :/)
07:14:26 <davidw> because that bit gets set in any case
07:14:40 <onetom> chasing compatibility is often just an obstacle
07:14:40 <onetom> ...
07:15:06 <onetom> k, skip this argument & make that correction
07:15:11 <onetom> and try 2 compile
07:15:25 <davidw> I will do it later
07:15:30 <davidw> maybe on the airplane or something
07:15:43 <onetom> how fuckin lazy r u :///
07:15:59 <davidw> I need to start packing my stuff - sorry
07:16:06 <onetom> wo arguing u chould have done that modification
07:16:07 <davidw> otherwise my girlfriend will call me lazy
07:16:15 <davidw> and frankly, she's more important than Tile;-)
07:16:15 <onetom> :D
07:16:27 <onetom> thought so ;)
07:16:44 <onetom> tho, this thing would take just some secs
07:17:09 <davidw> there are other errors, too...stuff about signals
07:17:18 <onetom> ok
07:18:11 <Stepan> fsck.. i need to get the pointer to a word header,.. not the cfa
07:56:03 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:03:14 --- join: nTuring (~chatzilla@01-058.128.popsite.net) joined #forth
08:04:58 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-8-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth
08:06:13 <nTuring> ciao David sei italiano per caso?
08:06:24 <davidw> no, ma vivo a Padova
08:06:27 <davidw> perche`?
08:06:39 --- join: bengtb (~bengtb@bb-62-5-49-69.bb.tninet.se) joined #forth
08:07:15 <nTuring> oh I'm Canadian (native language = English) but I studied Romance linguistics after doing www.cs.ubc.ca and love Italian
08:07:41 <davidw> cool
08:07:55 <davidw> I like living here a lot.... now I'm headed back to the states:-/
08:08:28 <nTuring> where will you be going? i live in vancouver.bc.ca but go down to wa.us a lot
08:09:13 <davidw> the california bay area
08:11:02 --- quit: nTuring (Remote closed the connection)
08:13:02 --- join: nTuring (~chatzilla@01-058.128.popsite.net) joined #forth
08:13:39 <nTuring> davidw: sorry about that... was editing html and accidentally closed Chatzilla client ;-)
08:20:35 --- quit: bengtb ("Client Exiting")
08:25:39 --- part: nTuring left #forth
08:26:39 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
09:05:25 --- quit: Stepan ("Do you think it is air you are breathing? Hmm?")
09:41:51 * cleverdra wishes that delosoft.com would answer his messages.
09:43:14 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
09:58:02 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth
09:58:08 <ASau> Hello!
09:58:36 <cleverdra> hello tathi, ASau.
10:04:08 <tathi> hey hey
10:13:26 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth
10:39:11 <ASau> Can you give me examples of good forth-asms, esp. for x86. (Links suffice.)
10:39:55 --- join: ayrnieu (julianf@0-1pool36-68.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
10:40:04 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
10:40:23 --- nick: ayrnieu -> cleverdra
10:41:30 <kc5tja> Forth assemblers?  Not really.  They're usually tightly integrated with the Forth environment itself.
10:41:56 <kc5tja> Supposedly GForth and BigForth has an "outboard" assembler available, but I don't have a link handy.
10:42:05 <kc5tja> Perhaps Google will be able to find more information on it.
10:42:37 <cleverdra> An ITC assembler, for instance, would have to know how where to put the assembly.  I wouldn't say 'tightly integrated', though.
10:42:47 <cleverdra> s/assembly/machine code/
10:43:25 <ASau> I'd like to hear some words about good and bad things.
10:43:40 <kc5tja> I would, since the CODE word needs to know how to establish a word header in the dictionary, and there's no standard way (even in ANSI) of doing that.
10:43:56 <ASau> I'm interested in producing machine code, not TC
10:44:33 <cleverdra> TC?
10:44:41 <cleverdra> oh, threaded code.
10:45:03 <cleverdra> kc5 - so if something uses system-specific words and data structure, you'd say that it is tightly integraded?
10:45:18 <ASau> Of course I can write everything like 12 c, 123 c, 14 c, ... supposig char size is 1 byte.
10:45:30 <ASau> ...but it is boring.
10:45:43 <cleverdra> ASau - also, you still have to know where to put that.
10:45:53 <cleverdra> : foo [ 12 c, ] ; will not work on an ITC system.
10:47:05 <ASau> I want to organize something like old Z80's ORG here, but code is saved there.
10:47:22 <ASau> ...and then write it to block/file/anything else.
10:49:36 <kc5tja> cleverdra: At least that part of it, yes.  The assembler has intimate knowledge of the guts of the Forth environment.  Well, it's as intimate as Forth gets, I suppose.
10:50:14 * cleverdra nods.
10:58:24 * kc5tja ponders implementing Dolphin on top of an exokernel instead of as a microkernel...
11:03:39 <cleverdra> an exokernel?  What's that?
11:04:45 <kc5tja> It's somewhat difficult to describe.
11:04:47 <kc5tja> But I'll try.
11:05:02 <kc5tja> It's a kernel that provides only resource protection, but not management.
11:05:15 <kc5tja> Management of resources is left to applications.
11:05:40 <kc5tja> (Applications will almost always link against a "library OS", or libOS for short.)
11:05:48 <cleverdra> OK.
11:06:14 <cleverdra> This is the ultimate user-space kernel, yes?
11:06:31 <kc5tja> So an exokernel will let an application allocate disk space at the individual block level, but what it does with those disk blocks is entirely up to the application.
11:06:42 <kc5tja> Those blocks are also protected from being accessed by other tasks as well.
11:06:52 <kc5tja> Yes.
11:07:08 <kc5tja> And it's the only scheme I've seen that actually seems feasible.
11:07:14 <cleverdra> Makes sense.  Why would you want to do it any other way?
11:07:36 <kc5tja> Well, it might be easier to make a microkernel or monolithic kernel.
11:07:45 <kc5tja> Exokernels aren't easy to design (they're just easy to implement).
11:08:36 <kc5tja> Exokernels are also tightly bound to the hardware they run on too.  Like Forth, they take the attitude that portability is "nice idea, but only a myth."
11:09:36 <kc5tja> Although I've been aware of exokernels for years now, I've never understood them like I do now.  Hence, I've always wanted Dolphin to be a microkernel instead of an exokernel.
11:09:42 <kc5tja> But the exokernel approach makes more sense to me now.
11:10:33 * cleverdra nods.
11:12:23 <kc5tja> Hmm...I should take some time to explore the concept with some spike solutions in Linux...just to see how they work.
11:12:41 <cleverdra> spike solutions?
11:13:20 <kc5tja> Sorry; extreme programming terminology for "quick, one-off prototype designed to learn more about the problem before you actually solve it."
11:13:35 <cleverdra> ah.
11:14:12 <kc5tja> For example, all of my paper model turbine motors are spike solutions to what I eventually hope to drop into a homemade go-kart for autocross racing... :)
11:36:10 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
12:56:53 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
13:13:03 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-8-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth
13:25:31 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
13:26:36 --- part: ASau left #forth
13:36:33 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food
13:36:59 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:49:15 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview68.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
14:02:44 <onetom> jol latom, h szabszei nem igen jart erre?
14:02:59 <onetom> :/ mm, bad channel?
14:03:08 <onetom> imean wrong channel.
14:08:56 <onetom> kc-food: do u have a favourite exokernel doc? any recommended url?
14:11:10 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving")
14:21:27 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust164.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
14:56:12 <rob_ert> Hey.
15:25:05 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja
16:00:35 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:01:09 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-8-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth
16:29:22 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
16:30:36 --- quit: dsmith (Remote closed the connection)
16:54:31 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
16:54:45 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
16:57:09 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
17:04:03 --- join: dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #forth
17:30:08 --- quit: rob_ert ("Lost terminal")
17:31:27 --- quit: dsmith (Remote closed the connection)
17:31:48 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
17:38:15 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:23:31 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
20:02:52 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk32.sat.net) joined #forth
20:17:47 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
20:19:32 <Etaoin> hi
20:56:36 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
21:13:39 --- quit: njd ("subaru tecnica international | nissan motorsports international")
21:35:37 --- join: sbk_ (~kbs@dsl-65-184-98-221.telocity.com) joined #forth
21:42:42 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise MemoryError, "oops, someone took the last jar of internet"")
21:45:12 --- quit: sbk_ ("Leaving")
21:59:46 --- quit: michaelw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:10:14 --- join: Serg_penguin_ (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
22:10:33 <Serg_penguin_> hi
23:03:37 --- join: Serg_pingvin (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
23:03:57 --- nick: Serg_pingvin -> Ser_penguin
23:04:07 --- nick: Ser_penguin -> Serg_penguin
23:22:38 --- quit: Serg_penguin_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:29:37 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-8-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth
23:40:41 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.06.25