00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.12 00:17:57 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-66-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 02:05:15 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 02:05:25 Hi :) 02:05:41 hi 02:06:04 you guys use forth for something at suse? 02:07:33 nope. 02:07:50 unfortunately not 02:08:07 Make them. 02:08:36 But OpenBIOS uses Forth 02:08:57 And that one will hopefully get somewhere useful pretty soon 02:15:29 --- quit: rob_ert ("leaving") 03:14:32 --- quit: davidw (Remote closed the connection) 03:14:32 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-66-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 05:30:27 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:30:28 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:31:43 sif: death to korean spammers 05:31:44 davidw: Word not found: death 05:33:56 does this look ok? 05:33:58 : unaligned-l! ( long addr -- ) 05:33:58 swap lbsplit ( -- addr a b c d ) 05:33:58 4 pick 3 ca+ c! 05:33:58 3 pick 2 ca+ c! 05:33:58 2 pick 1 ca+ c! 05:33:59 swap c! 05:34:01 ; 06:29:42 --- quit: davidw (Remote closed the connection) 06:29:46 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-66-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 06:56:15 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapZZz 06:57:45 --- join: VitaBrevi (~ars_longa@194.186.245.113) joined #forth 07:09:27 --- join: [Atlas] (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 07:22:51 --- quit: VitaBrevi (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 07:57:41 --- join: XeF4 (ytmlif@12.245.116.85) joined #forth 08:30:05 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:33:03 tähti.. 08:33:28 hey XeF4 08:37:59 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust26.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:38:50 .. 08:40:10 hi 08:40:16 just got up :P 08:53:07 --- nick: [Atlas] -> Atlas 08:54:00 hi atlas 08:54:06 didnt notice you there 08:54:09 you a forth coder ? 08:54:43 aha fare hehe 08:54:44 lol 08:54:47 hiding :P 08:55:00 * Atlas shrugs 08:55:05 heh 08:57:36 I could use "Telemachus sneezed" instead 09:02:43 how about "Poseidon scratches his jimmy" 09:03:13 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 09:08:38 davidw: you'll have to popularize it first 09:09:09 ok 09:20:34 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:24:19 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 09:25:11 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:25:24 herk/tathi! 09:25:36 I440r! :) 09:25:47 I'm learning PPC asm :) 09:25:51 cool 09:25:54 port isforth heh 09:26:06 heh 09:26:26 Herkamire: did you know you can get the manuals shipped to you for free? 09:26:27 I think I'll start with a simple forth 09:26:41 grrr isforth IS simple... for me :) 09:27:03 davidw: no. I knew you could download them 09:27:12 Herkamire: let me see if I can find you the URL 09:27:33 davidw: no thanks. I have enough materials 09:28:03 I440r: yeah, except you have to deal with those silly x86 processors ;) 09:28:06 (a four inch thick book and the motorola spec for my processor) 09:28:15 Herkamire: what book? 09:28:22 tathi porting asm is trivial 09:28:38 uhm 09:28:40 do it then 09:28:53 "PPC asm for Intel Programmers" or some such. Kinda screwy, but lots of info :) 09:29:25 I did think about porting isforth 09:29:29 cool 09:29:32 still might, at some point 09:29:35 I440r: I don't know x86 asm, so porting it would be hard for me. 09:30:03 herk lol - learn x86 too :) 09:30:15 if that doesnt tie your brain in knots nothing will :) 09:30:22 err, no, don't learn x86 09:30:28 run screaming in the opposite direction :P 09:31:32 heh 09:31:40 x86 isnt that bad once you get ussed to it 09:32:01 from what I know about x86 (which is very little) it look ghastly 09:32:05 yep 09:32:13 it's not well looked upon 09:32:15 I'm starting to so Why PPC can get twice as much done per clock cycle 09:32:27 and consume like a tenth of the power 09:32:35 well, that's exagerated, but... 09:33:15 I440r C isn't that bad once you get used to it :) 09:33:23 tathi bullshit 09:33:24 :P 09:33:49 lol 09:33:51 actually I don't mind x86 that much 09:34:01 just wouldn't want to try writing an assembler for it 09:34:06 Linux ashland 2.4.18 #12 Tue Feb 26 14:20:47 CET 2002 ppc unknown 09:34:13 or a disassembler 09:34:15 or a debugger 09:36:34 davidw: that your Ti-book? 09:39:19 yep 09:40:35 I440r: you decided you didn't like .s for asm files? 09:40:52 x86 asm seems more high level... 09:41:43 it bothers me that not all asm instructions translate directly to a machine instruction. 09:42:10 I thought that was the point of asm (to be able to specify machine instructions directly without twiddling the bits by hand) 09:42:19 what do you mean they don't? 09:43:36 some x86 instructions (like mov I think) translate to different machine instructions depending on parameter types and in some cases the whims of the assembler. 09:44:28 I see.. 09:50:30 and it really bugs me that all the instructions aren't the same length 09:50:55 x86 isn't that bad once your brain is reduced to a pile of rubble 10:17:43 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 10:39:16 --- join: dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #forth 11:01:56 --- join: XeF4 (~XeF4@dsl-XIII-26.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 11:15:36 --- join: nothing (nm@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:22:57 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 11:26:56 hey kc5tja :) 11:27:25 Hi kc5tja, Herkamire :) 11:28:23 Howdy 11:39:32 tathi .s is not realy useable in linux, its already spoken for 11:39:42 and i refuse to use upper case letters in my extensions 11:39:47 i cant use .a or .i either grr 11:40:04 so i chose .1 because nobody else uese it 11:40:12 I440r: what's wrong with .s? 11:40:16 when i can metacompile all the sources will be .f 11:40:48 .s is the extension for assembly language source files. 11:40:55 i forget the details but i was STRONGLY advised not to use either .s or .a <-- historically my chose 11:41:07 kc5 i was advised using .s was bad 11:41:11 so i didnt use it or .a 11:41:18 .S is assembler source fiels 11:41:19 .s implies AT&T asm 11:41:28 and i WILL NOTT use upper case extensions 11:41:37 .a is the archiver file extension (as in statically linked libraries). 11:41:43 correct 11:41:47 use .s 11:41:55 .assembly ? 11:41:57 You don't want to use them because "make" has built-in rules for them. 11:42:22 You could override those rules with your own, of course, but it's tedious and error-prone to have to do it every time. 11:42:36 Use two-letter extensions. .fs, .fi, .fo, etc. 11:42:48 .as 11:42:55 i dislike overly verbose file extensions 11:43:05 everything will eventually be a .f 11:43:08 How in the *hell* is it overly verbose? 11:43:21 .assembler was mentioned above 11:43:48 Ahh, didn't see that. 11:44:06 heh 11:45:01 .intel80386assemblytobeassembledwithnasm0.98.8ornewer 11:46:59 .x-text.x86assembly 11:47:06 (mime type, but using . instead of / ;) ) 11:50:07 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 11:50:23 lol 11:50:49 dont give them lame ass c coders that idea - they woud LOVE it 11:51:11 entire sentences for function names... lets transport that idea to file extensions!!! 11:51:38 hungarian file extensions :) 11:51:38 heh 11:51:44 !?! 11:51:56 C programmers love contractions -- strdup, strcpy, ..etc.. 11:52:01 atoi 11:52:25 GetListOfPointersToMyWhutsitArray() 11:52:33 sure they do 11:52:36 No, that's the type of code *I* produce. 11:52:47 Ick. That's a mocosoftism. 11:52:53 No it isn't. 11:52:55 It's common sense. 11:52:58 yes ut us 11:53:01 not it isnt 11:53:04 * I440r shuts up 11:53:08 OK, you're right and I'm wrong. 11:53:26 From now on, I'll program only in BrainFuck. Fuck Forth. Fuck you. 11:53:52 I have no idea what people have against self-documenting program source. 11:53:59 A lot of the early names for C functions are short because of the lame system linkers in use at the time. 11:54:19 And because they didn't like typing. 11:54:30 Well, ywah. 11:54:46 Well, duhh -- if they didn't like typing, then why in the hell would they write a self-descriptive function name? 11:54:51 For example, I can;t type, so I need to do as little as possible. 11:55:02 Then you suffer. 11:55:06 That's not my problem. 11:55:51 The fact is, self-describing program source is far easier to maintain than one that relies on cryptic function names and explanatory comments. 11:56:13 But, then, what the hell do I know? 11:56:19 I've only been programming for 20 years. 11:56:30 kc5tja: Sure. I was joking about the short names. But it's true that I can't type. 11:57:45 The problem with really long names, it that it's more difficult to decode whats different/same between two names. 11:57:59 The eye has more work to do. 11:58:36 Then the code isn't well structured. Like any technique, it takes time to develop the skill and apply it well. 11:58:46 That's why C is a whole lot eaiser to read that Ada/pascal/others that have lots of "noise" words. 12:01:06 ada is ugly as sin 12:01:12 ada and pascal need to burn in hell 12:03:00 they aren't very popular... isn't that good enough 12:03:29 Oberon is quite nice, I think. Still too verbose for some, but I think it's just right. 12:03:44 But then, I still prefer Forth. 12:07:45 I440r: you should switch to PPC... It'll probably be easier to port isforth and write an assembler and dissasembler for PPC than just writing an assembler and dissasembler for x86 12:09:46 I440r: btw: isforth is disgusting. Nothing should be that fast. 12:12:42 I440r: yesterday I wanted to tell you something. 12:12:46 Forgot what since. 12:12:51 :( 12:13:20 mmm oberon 12:13:30 nothing: what about oberon? 12:27:14 --- join: miket2 (Mike@62.60.70.190) joined #forth 12:28:22 --- part: miket2 left #forth 12:36:26 atlas if you remember what it was..... heh 12:36:46 dsmith heheh - disgustingly fast eh ??? :) 12:36:59 its all done with smoke and mirrors 12:37:42 heheh 12:37:45 smoke and mirrors rofl 12:37:58 i440r the Carnival wizard :))) 12:38:45 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 12:38:48 I440r: I remembed the forth compiler I used to play with: forthcmp by Tom Almy http://www.aracnet.com/~tomalmy/forthcmp.html 12:39:16 oh man 12:39:18 that's so old... 12:39:25 i remember using that at my High school.... 12:40:24 Yeah, well, my son is in high school. My daughter too. 12:41:15 I am in high school lol 12:41:43 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:41:58 * dsmith is another "old guy" 12:42:05 cool 12:42:09 old guys are great 12:42:19 youth and idealism get very annoying 12:42:21 :) 12:42:35 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 12:45:44 I440r: I might be able to answer your samba question, or at least I have an idea. 12:45:52 ya ? 12:46:05 cool cuz nobody in #debian is answering :) 12:46:19 * dsmith is reading manuals 12:47:57 I440r: You know that the DOS hidden,system,readonly bits can be mapped to the X Linux bits? 12:49:08 err... they can ? 12:49:32 how would that help me keep a file as rw-r--r-- ? 12:49:34 etc etc 12:49:43 there arent enough bits in dos heh 12:49:52 yes 12:50:37 See "map archive", "map hidden", and "map system" in your smb.conf man page. 12:56:37 I440r: Make sure map archive|hidden|system = no 12:57:08 The archive defaults to yes 12:57:22 That's my guess anyway. 13:04:28 let me go look in swat :) 13:05:26 fuck i cant use swat - "the server requested an authentication method that is not supported" some fucking upgrade b0rked me :) 13:05:27 brb 13:06:02 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login2.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 13:06:26 Hi tcn 13:06:42 tcn! 13:06:43 hey 13:06:59 yo i440, i'm writing that assembler 13:07:08 cool how far you got ??? :) 13:07:17 paper 13:07:23 * I440r starts tapping his foot impatiently.... 13:07:24 heh 13:07:32 it's all in my head though 13:07:34 lol 13:07:48 well its a start :) 13:08:05 im working on the decompiler and a tutorial for forth/isforth 13:08:29 i'm getting 1.08b now 13:08:35 cool 13:12:35 i also wanna get working on that console windowing system but i wanna be able to use IBM box charset if i can 13:13:01 rite now i got so much on my plate its difficult to keep track of it all 13:14:40 heh.. what would you DO with console windows anyway? 13:14:53 Quite a bit, actually. 13:15:05 I440r: in those situations I like to go play video games, and don't do much programming for a week. 13:15:11 a web browser 13:15:18 a multi file, multi user editor 13:15:21 then I see what projects I wish I had worked on, and drop the rest :) 13:15:22 * kc5tja would use them to make a file manager similar to Gentoo (no, not Gentoo Linux, the file manager called Gentoo) 13:15:31 a mud client 13:15:34 an irc client 13:15:34 alot 13:16:05 a slimmer mc too 13:16:15 --- quit: nothing () 13:16:16 ok, just so you can split up the screen 13:16:17 without all the bullshit featureitis crap nobody uses 13:16:22 --- join: nothing (nm@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:16:26 yes 13:16:33 but with FLOATING windows etc 13:16:48 floating on top of each other like MS/X windows? 13:16:53 yes 13:16:58 uhg 13:16:58 yikes 13:16:59 or not. 13:17:08 i prefer panes 13:17:14 Floating windows in text mode aren't hard. 13:17:14 those too 13:17:19 nope 13:17:26 aren't useful either 13:17:27 but its a little more difficult in a console 13:17:36 You can get away with a really naive implementation with text mode because of the low bandwidth required for text data. 13:17:36 tcn they are actualy :) 13:17:39 floating windows blow 13:17:45 yeah 13:17:47 tcn: It's *VERY* useful. Ever used Borland's IDE for Borland C++? 13:17:54 I don't see the use in having a window partially covered up... 13:18:06 they just obscure what's behind them, so why not just take over the whole screen? 13:18:20 are a whole "pane" at least 13:18:22 uh 13:18:24 s/are/or 13:18:25 what UI are you talking about? 13:18:26 tcn: Because maybe you want to see a portion of two documents at the same time perhaps? 13:18:31 some new fangled forth gui? 13:18:31 tcn isforth will use one window for ITS console, another for its editor and another for (insert something useful here) 13:18:40 nothing. TUI not gui 13:18:53 i didn't say gui... 13:19:01 i'd actually have room for this on my 100x37 console :) 13:19:14 "< nothing> some new fangled forth gui?" 13:19:15 tcn itll work in 80x25 too heh 13:19:40 too cramped 13:19:40 for most purposes 13:19:47 tcn: Hardly. 13:19:52 gah 13:19:52 heh 13:19:56 The smaller the screen, the greater the need for windows. 13:20:16 what??? 13:20:17 in asm coding I want 80 columns and full height 13:20:20 If we had infinitely big desktops, we wouldn't have a need for windows. 13:20:27 tcn: Then make a window that big. 13:20:29 the smaller the screen the more you want things to be full screen (not windows) 13:20:35 why not just use a graphical mode and map text to that? 13:20:55 in 100x37 that leaves me a little 20x37 window left over 13:21:06 nothing: Graphics is not platform standard, has 64x the memory bandwidth at a minimum, and is very inconvenient to work with. 13:21:19 * dsmith uses X mostly so he can open lots of big xterms 13:21:25 tcn: How do you fit a clock application if it consumes the whole screen for just two lines of text? 13:21:32 I use 17" monitors, and I resent the screenspace taken up by window borders and menus and stuff 13:21:34 brb 13:21:54 yeah, and mine's even smaller 13:21:58 Herkamire: Do not blame the whole GUI concept for a decidedly faulty implementation of that concept. 13:22:15 Herkamire: X11 and MS Windows are constantly trying to be like each other. Use MacOS or AmigaOS, and your opinion will change. 13:22:25 try windows on a 12" screen 13:22:49 Or try plan 9 to realy twist your head 13:22:57 heh.. don't amiga programs tend to use the full screen? 13:22:59 kc5tja: I don't agree that X11 and MS Windows are trying to be alike. 13:23:23 kc5: Gnome or KDE and Windows, not X11 and Windows 13:23:30 kc5tja: I grew up on MacOS. I like it. But I like X11 better because I can controll it more, and the many virtual desktops. 13:24:21 kc5tja: with X11 I have removed window borders, removed the stupid "pannel" thing allong the bottom and set most things to fill the screen 13:24:39 you can't do that with MacOS or MS Windows 13:24:55 Herkamire: what wm do you use? 13:25:09 try Ion 13:25:12 or Ratpoison 13:25:17 dsmith: sawfish. I made a custom window theme. 13:25:19 very minimalistic 13:25:45 I don't think it's possible to get any more minimal than not having a border or anything else visible. 13:25:53 Herkamire: I usually use blackbox, but right now I'm using fvwm. 13:26:01 fvwm? uck 13:26:04 blackbox is nice 13:26:43 The cool thing about fvwm, is how configurable it is. It's ugly though. 13:27:12 I can't change blackbox without hacking the source. 13:27:17 ahh :) kde is trying to be like windoze. I don't use kde or gnome. they are both too much like windoze 13:27:40 Herkamire: How can you justify a 16-pixel tall clock taking up a whole panel, or the whole screen? 13:27:56 I cannot justify that. That is every bit as much a waste of screen space as any menubar or toolbar Windows has. 13:28:07 kde and gnome are for windoze refugees with bad habits 13:28:24 And you are utterly false about MacOS. Windows have *ONE* pixel borders (!!), and the menu always occupies the same spot of the screen (the very top), and itself has only 1 pixel border. 13:28:27 kc5tja: I go for the aproach of a wall clock personally. 13:29:13 Herkamire: OK, how about a "You Got Mail" indicator? Those are typically only 16x16 in size. 13:29:22 You don't have a wall "You Got Mail" indicator, do you? 13:29:25 Be realistic. 13:29:29 hehe :) 13:29:37 * kc5tja also prefers a wall clock, but I still use the computer's clock quite often 13:29:39 right now I don't have indicators 13:29:44 how about just checking your mail whenever you care if you have any? 13:29:54 tathi: Not always feasible. 13:30:11 ? 13:30:27 If you need to respond to your manager's e-mail within a certain time period, but you don't want to sit and wait for him to send the message because you've got programming to do, those indicators are DAMN handy. 13:30:36 After all you don't sit by the telephone all day waiting for someone to call, do you? 13:30:56 ah, ok 13:31:18 Try gkrellm. It has any indicator you need (or not). 13:31:39 I just would never work at a job where I _had_ to respond to _anybody's_ email that quickly 13:31:42 what I would *like* is instead of windows, I want the screen to be sectioned off. The screen could be divided vertically or horizontally into two sections, and each section could be divided vertically or herizontally etc. 13:31:56 tathi: Then you'll never work in the technology industry. 13:32:06 Herkamire: Hmm. Sounds like emacs. 13:32:14 Yes, that's a paned GUI. 13:32:17 kc5tja: tathi and I *are* working in the technology industry... 13:32:19 Windows 1.0 started out that way. 13:32:23 So am I. 13:32:26 I verify chips. 13:32:38 yeah, they called it Panes :) 13:32:57 And I have to answer e-mails within certain periods of time, since my response could affect when chips go on sale, if at all. 13:33:07 I do want to be able to have indicators. but I'm not sure I want them taking up screen space 13:33:16 whatever 13:33:26 I just don't think e-mail should ever be used for time-sensitive stuff 13:33:45 ditto 13:33:49 What you think and what the remainder of your company thinks are two different issues. 13:33:55 many e-mail servers do not attempt to deliver mail quickly 13:34:30 kc5tja: We are the quickest ones in our company to respond to e-mail I think. or at least tathi is. 13:34:36 My point is that I want to know when I get e-mail, without having to babysit the e-mail client. 13:35:05 yeah, sorry for going off on a tangent like that 13:35:15 kc5tja: I may implement something like the screen flashing or audio queues 13:35:32 Audio queues are an abomination if you work in a company loaded with cubicles. 13:35:43 Screen flashing is good for only one or two indicators at best. 13:35:49 my thing is that if I want two things on the screen at once, I want all of both of them to be showing. 13:35:51 There are things that will blink your keyboard led. 13:36:08 Herkamire: Windows do not forbid that at all. 13:36:39 dsmith: cool :) I was thinking it would be cool to have something else on your desk flash or something :) 13:36:42 But panes *DO* forbid efficient use of screen space for smallish sized information content. 13:37:01 dsmith: I don't look at the keyboard when I type. 13:37:09 I don't even notice the LEDs. 13:37:14 what is the keyboard of choice for forth hackers? :) 13:37:41 I want the same screen layout all the time, no moving windows around.. 13:37:54 kc5tja: frames do not forbit smallish sized information. if I wanted indicators and/or menus I would make a thin frame along the top or the bottom and put all the small stuff in it 13:38:29 or one big frame on the left, and two thin ones on the right 13:38:32 Herkamire: If you have sufficient quantities of indicators, it works. If you don't, you waste space. 13:38:50 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 13:39:02 tcn: Use Oberon. They have a wonderful paned environment that works great. But I still prefer overlapping window. 13:39:05 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust26.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 13:39:09 kc5tja: yes, that's why I was thinking of not having any indicators on the screen (because I would only have one or two, and I could use some other medium to get my attention) 13:39:30 one small frame in the lower-right for email indicators, etc, and everything else devoted to the program you're working in 13:39:47 kc5tja: and it does not waste nearly as much space as your window title bars. 13:40:13 Herkamire: Having used a paned GUI before, I can wholeheartedly disagree with that. 13:40:43 kc5tja: what was so good about it then? 13:40:49 Also, haven't you seen those window managers that hide the titlebar of a window when you don't mouse over them? 13:41:07 i hate that ;) 13:41:15 kc5tja: that's dumb. you still have to leave space for the titlebar. 13:41:26 I don't want to have any empty space. 13:41:38 Herkamire: Since when?! 13:42:16 kc5tja: when you maximize it, does it keep the titlebar on the screen? 13:42:34 Herkamire: You didn't even read what I wrote. 13:42:43 I'll repeat: 13:43:03 Haven't you seen any windowmanagers that do not show the window's titlebar when you don't have the mouse pointer inside the window? 13:43:35 I will admit they're rare, but I believe a few for Linux do exist. I know I used one on AIX when I was in college. 13:43:58 kc5tja: I really don't think that helps much 13:44:26 Well, then we're at an empasse. Paned GUIs are no better than a window'ed GUI. 13:44:45 Everything a paned GUI can do, a windowed GUI can do just as well. 13:45:39 kc5tja: I'm sure it's possible to program a window manager for X11 that would make it look/work like a paned GUI 13:46:06 Here's the other thing -- you still need handles on the pane borders to grab onto to resize the panes. 13:46:21 So you still end up sucking up some 8 to 16 pixels per pane of screen space for borders. 13:46:22 kc5tja: no you don't 13:46:31 Herkamire: Then how do you resize a pane? 13:46:32 I have no window borders. 13:46:42 Herkamire: You have a fixed geometry on your desktop? 13:46:53 you hold down some keys and click near the edge and drag 13:47:00 maybe you resize it by editing the forth code? 13:47:12 How do you tell where one pane starts and another stops, especially if they have the same background color? 13:47:35 kc5tja: I would put a couple pixels as a pane dividor 13:48:54 * kc5tja still is rather incredulous at the concept. 13:49:30 the tricky bit is, when you want another pane, deciding which pane to split so you can add it to the mix. 13:49:36 and how big to make them etc. 13:49:37 I mean, I really like the idea of a paned GUI, but I can't bring myself to justify implementing a pure paned GUI. 13:50:27 You will also need a way to move panes about too, to re-organize the screen. 13:50:35 I've found I needed to do that occasionally in Oberon. 13:50:42 kc5tja: ahh :) well, when my operating system get's to the point where I want more than one thing on the screen at once, I'm going to implement my paned GUI idea :) 13:50:56 What if you don't want to use a mouse? 13:51:05 tcn: Then don't. 13:51:17 Would that change your perspective, though? 13:51:26 tcn: Nope. 13:51:27 kc5tja: oh definately. You have to be able to reorganize the panes, and do something to get them to show up where and how big you want them to 13:51:36 I've used overlapping windows quite successfully without a mouse for a number of years. 13:51:59 Herkamire: kc5tja: The paned gui you guys are talking about is emacs! 13:52:00 but emacs is a hog 13:52:04 tcn: I'm not big on the mouse. I plan to make it so you can do just about everything with the keyboard. 13:52:16 dsmith: No, emacs is paned user interface. Note the difference. 13:52:22