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11:04:46 <rob_ert> Hi futhin.
11:05:16 <futhin> ho ender
11:07:07 <futhin> rob_ert: you should read "ender's game" by scott somebody
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11:17:54 <Stepan> re
11:18:10 <rob_ert> Hi Stepan.
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11:52:23 <Stepan> Hi rob_ert
11:59:17 <I440r> hi yall
11:59:30 <I440r> futhin set some cool topic or somethng :P_
12:00:25 <rob_ert> I suck... I'm compiling a kernel on my 486 when I have 10 times faster computers.
12:00:35 <I440r> lol
12:00:36 <I440r> no
12:00:39 <rob_ert> Oh, why can't I ever think BEFORE I do something stupid?
12:00:45 <davidw> hehehe:-)
12:01:26 <I440r> robert convert it to forth and it will compile in 2 seconds flat on your slowest box :)
12:02:30 <rob_ert> But on the other hand, that job will take 2^16 years.
12:02:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
12:03:01 --- topic: set to 'Our mantra: Good code is written code | Forth code repository - http://doesnotexist.yet |  <futhin> the fact is that forth is in a pathetic state of development right now' by futhin
12:03:56 <I440r> not isforth :)
12:04:10 <futhin> i440r: you posted isforth on freshmeat without a decent website for isforth?
12:04:18 <futhin> you've betrayed me!
12:04:27 <futhin> my feelings are hurt :P
12:11:14 <I440r> futhin thats being fixed
12:11:22 <I440r> i got a web developer and he is gona be doing the page
12:11:36 <I440r> im currently writing a tutorial for forth/isforth to go in the page
12:11:46 <I440r> ill let you proofread it first hehe
12:12:07 <futhin> ok
12:12:35 <I440r> your the editor in chief :)
12:13:44 <futhin> who's the web developer?
12:13:47 <futhin> where'd he come from
12:14:20 <davidw> futhin: web developers are brought to us by albatrosses
12:14:24 <davidw> not storks, like normal people
12:14:59 <futhin> heh
12:15:10 <futhin> no, i'm wondering if i440r met him thru #debian or something
12:15:18 <I440r> it is an ancient mariner and he stopeth one of three....
12:15:21 <futhin> or one of the ppl visiting isforth.clss.net
12:15:24 <futhin> and got pissed off
12:15:30 <futhin> and offered to do a website for free
12:15:50 <davidw> I wonder what Mr. Moore thinks of DocBook
12:15:52 <I440r> it was a guy that emailed me saying he would do the web page. he codes but doesnt do html but HAS to learn for something
12:16:05 <I440r> so he offered to do my page if i would be patient with his learning :)
12:16:10 <futhin> hm
12:16:17 <futhin> why don't i just make a page right now :P
12:16:36 <davidw> I440r: you should just steal some code
12:17:52 <I440r> steal some code to do what ?
12:18:05 <I440r> futhin cuz thers nothing to go in it yet :P
12:20:55 <futhin> i'm making a page right now
12:20:59 <futhin> i'm really pissed off lol! :P
12:21:48 <futhin> what's your email address? and please don't let it be that crappy one..
12:21:49 <futhin> :P
12:23:59 <I440r> which crappy one
12:24:05 <I440r> mark.manning
12:24:06 <I440r> at
12:24:11 <I440r> fastermail
12:24:11 <I440r> dot
12:24:12 <I440r> com
12:24:24 <I440r> broken up to stop spammers getting it from the logs :)
12:24:30 * davidw goes to feed it to the spam-bots...
12:24:41 <I440r> lol
12:25:00 <I440r> i dont wanna disappoint the guy that offered ya know ?
12:28:20 <futhin> well i said i would do the website
12:28:25 <futhin> a long time ago 
12:28:30 <futhin> and i'm such a lazy bastard
12:28:42 <futhin> it would've taken me an hour
12:28:48 <I440r> i know but now ive agreed to let this guy do it lol
12:28:55 <I440r> and i cant realy go back on my word
12:29:01 <I440r> you need to do the HELP stuff 
12:29:02 <davidw> I bet he uses at least one <blink> tag
12:29:11 <I440r> whats a <blink> tag ?
12:31:11 <I440r> futhin im going to add block files to isforth. the help for each word could go in a block file 
12:31:15 <I440r> as a database!
12:35:38 <davidw> so no one has any good ideas for what to do with ZOG
12:36:15 <I440r> whats ZOG
12:36:38 <I440r> futhin write that help for the kernel primatives - the easy ones
12:37:42 <davidw> ZOG - www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ 
12:37:47 <davidw> click on 'projects' then 'zog'
12:40:32 <futhin> done, i finished the website :P
12:40:37 <futhin> it's rough
12:40:55 <futhin> so it can still be easily improved
12:44:19 <I440r> lol i went to get coffee heh
12:44:28 <I440r> and you cant dcc me thru ipmasq
12:44:34 <futhin> fine i'll ftp you
12:44:35 <futhin> and upload it
12:44:51 <I440r> ok heh
12:45:01 <I440r> dns me and upload into incoming
12:45:11 <I440r> what is it
12:45:18 <futhin> your ftp serv is up?
12:45:22 <I440r> i cant use a web page because i promised this other guy ya know ?
12:45:30 <futhin> wow it's hella slow
12:45:45 <futhin> no, just update your current site with mine, until the other guy produces his
12:45:46 <I440r> it would be realy mean if i put up a page by someone else :(
12:45:55 <futhin> mine is crappy and easy to improve on
12:46:00 <I440r> im trying to download the freebsd iso too
12:46:06 <futhin> lol
12:46:07 <I440r> k
12:46:07 <I440r> i can do that
12:46:20 <futhin> soooo slow
12:46:24 <I440r> i have 351 megs of 633 total
12:46:24 <I440r> and its taken me over a week
12:46:27 <futhin> LIST..... wait 5 minutes
12:47:15 <I440r> ya. heh
12:47:47 <davidw> zog is unhappy with you because you have not visited it
12:48:00 <I440r> was it you that subscribed to isforth on freshmeat ?
12:48:33 <I440r> davidw i tried - this download makes my web browser time out when going there heh
12:48:59 <futhin> i440r: you should have it now
12:49:02 <futhin> isforthsite.zip
12:49:05 <futhin> 2611 bytes
12:49:18 <I440r> k
12:49:30 <futhin> it's really simple, really cool, check it out :P
12:49:33 <I440r> ill check it out in a min
12:49:55 <futhin> gotta reboot my comp
12:50:36 <I440r> is it purple  ????
12:50:36 <I440r> heh
12:50:42 <futhin> no heh
12:50:50 <futhin> you'll have to purplize it if you want that
12:51:08 <futhin> you could make the table bgcolor purple
12:51:12 <futhin> and the text white
12:51:25 <futhin> modify the <font>s to <font color=white>
12:51:34 <I440r> heh
12:51:45 <I440r> futhin making up words ?????
12:51:45 <I440r> lol
12:51:52 <futhin> making up words?
12:52:08 <futhin> i went to archive.org
12:52:15 <futhin> to find isforth.sourceforge.net
12:52:18 <futhin> and i copied the text
12:52:21 <futhin> even though it sucks
12:52:28 <futhin> and i'll want to edit it :P
12:52:31 <futhin> after you edit it
12:52:32 <I440r> purplize  <-- 
12:52:49 <futhin> edit the content
12:52:56 <futhin> and send it back to me
12:52:58 <futhin> or not
12:53:07 <futhin> naw, not a big deal
12:53:18 <futhin> btw, you should know i stole the content for forth.html
12:53:24 <futhin> from the openbios site :D
12:53:31 <futhin> but don't worry about it
12:53:35 <futhin> i'm sure it's okay
12:53:39 <futhin> right stepan? :D
12:53:51 <I440r> hehe
12:54:05 <futhin> i'll take the blame if anybody complains about it
12:54:16 <futhin> don't change the content unless you got better content :P
12:54:46 <futhin> brb, rebooting
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13:01:50 <futhin> what's up i440r? :)
13:02:02 <futhin> i'm at isforth.clss.net waiting :P
13:02:05 <futhin> lol
13:02:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
13:02:49 --- topic: set to 'Our mantra: Good code is written code | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net' by futhin
13:02:51 <I440r> lol i cant upload it till i stop the download
13:03:03 <I440r> ill look at it and put it up later tho
13:03:32 <futhin> k
13:03:39 <futhin> hm
13:03:50 <futhin> i'd help you out with the help system stuff right now
13:03:53 <futhin> if i had a shell account
13:03:55 <futhin> with isforth installed
13:04:48 <I440r> install debian
13:04:48 <I440r> remove windows
13:04:54 <futhin> heh
13:04:58 <I440r> problem solved :)
13:05:08 <futhin> not at this time, other ppl use my computer
13:05:22 <futhin> for imesh and transfering files..  they'd be pissed
13:05:31 <futhin> not sure if i would waste my time with debian
13:05:40 <I440r> fuckem :)
13:06:22 <futhin> i took a look at the debian site, couldn't figure out how to download the basic debian to install from the windows partition
13:06:29 <futhin> slackware is much more userfriendly
13:06:35 <futhin> very easy to figure out how to do stuff
13:06:51 <futhin> and decent enough package system for me, with rpm2tar converter
13:10:18 <I440r> ugh
13:11:09 <davidw> debian is a bit more complex, but it pays off in the long run
13:12:13 <futhin> debian is aimed at newbies, slackware is aimed at real men :P
13:12:20 <futhin> debian more complex?  naw
13:12:48 <futhin> just because their website & download set up is completely braindead doesn't mean debian is more complex
13:15:19 <futhin> i agree i440r, purple is such an ugly color
13:15:47 <futhin> (also purpilized my copy of the website at the same time you said ugh)
13:16:29 <davidw> I think he's just showing his support for the gay pride movement
13:17:06 <I440r> davidw they stole the word GAY. im NOT letting them have purple
13:17:40 <davidw> I bet they would wrestle you for it
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13:33:43 * davidw esta escuchando la *salsa*
13:35:05 <tathi> so was the openprojects irc network down earlier, or was that just me?
13:35:48 <davidw> it blew up
13:36:04 <I440r> it was very down earlier
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13:36:27 <tathi> ah
13:36:28 <davidw> [lilo: folks - pay me or no network!]
13:36:34 <davidw> not really, but...
13:36:35 <CrowKiller> hi
13:38:00 <tathi> hi CrowKiller
13:38:26 <CrowKiller> i have a quick question: wich of the follwing would be more approriate: A return stack made from 3 registers acting as a top of stack, a scratch and a pointer to stack, with handcoded call and rets OR use the call/ret already made in hardware on the x86?
13:39:16 <CrowKiller> i think i saw some benchmarks somewhere but I can't recall where exactly
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13:48:15 <CrowKiller> l440r: in your asm code, do you use ECX as a counting register?
13:48:52 <CrowKiller> i was tempted to use it as the top of return stack, and esp as the stack pointer
13:50:26 <tathi> do you really need a top of return stack?
13:51:32 <tathi> I wouldn't think it would make much difference...
13:57:07 <CrowKiller> if im doing
13:57:09 <CrowKiller> rdrops
13:57:14 <CrowKiller> rnips
13:57:21 <CrowKiller> etc etc
13:57:53 <CrowKiller> I need the best (fastest, sicne memory is cheap) return stack design
13:59:30 <CrowKiller> anyway i think the Top of return stack in ECX a new thing, ill try to make so code to go with it
13:59:47 <tathi> ah, ok then
14:05:48 <futhin> how goes it tathi?
14:05:52 <futhin> and how is herkamire doing?
14:06:34 <futhin> i440r: you alive?
14:07:17 <tathi> we're both good
14:07:21 <futhin> i440r: i want to write up the help files right now without worrying about the code, let's figure out how it WILL work, and it can be coded later
14:07:29 <futhin> tathi: how come i haven't seen you guys around lately?
14:07:43 <tathi> I've been restructuring my colorforth
14:07:50 <tathi> herk was in Florida for three weeks
14:07:55 <futhin> ah
14:08:22 <tathi> and work has been pretty hectic the last couple of weeks
14:08:29 <futhin> tathi: do you ever work on colorforth while working at your job?
14:09:20 <tathi> futhin: only very occasionally
14:09:38 <tathi> herk and I did talk about making a forth module for apache so we could use it for web scripting
14:10:02 <tathi> but I don't think either of us ever really did anything about it
14:10:38 <futhin> yeah
14:10:57 <futhin> well do you find that you code up somethign immediately if you like the idea?
14:11:07 <futhin> i find that if i like the idea, it still takes a few months before something happens lol
14:11:17 <tathi> hmm, no, I take that back, he hooked something up as a CGI
14:11:26 <futhin> it's a good idea though, i'd help if i could
14:11:45 <tathi> I generally like to start doing _something_ right away
14:11:45 <futhin> you could utilize me as an editor/writer/website guy or something..  except i suck at the website part ;P
14:11:52 <tathi> :)
14:12:01 <I440r> futhin ok
14:12:13 <I440r> hang on
14:12:18 <davidw> how would you do web scripting with forth?
14:12:25 <tathi> do little programs to test and figure out the hard parts
14:12:39 <tathi> davidw: don't know, I don't get the impression forth does strings very well
14:12:40 <I440r> futhin i think the forth help should go in block files
14:13:02 <I440r> but isforth doesnt have blockfiles yet
14:13:07 <tathi> davidw: that's part of the reason I never did anything about it ;)
14:13:13 <futhin> davidw: however you want to
14:13:24 <futhin> for example you have a web page
14:13:29 <futhin> and part of it is in html
14:13:32 <futhin> and part of it is in forth
14:13:34 <futhin> <HTML>  
14:13:34 <futhin> <HEAD>  
14:13:34 <futhin> <TITLE>GForth <$ version-string type $>  presents</TITLE>  
14:13:34 <futhin> </HEAD>  
14:13:34 <futhin> <BODY>  
14:13:34 <I440r> when you say something like "help foo" forth would seach the help block file for the word foo and display that entire block
14:13:35 <futhin> <H1>Computing Primes</H1><$ 25 Constant #prim $>  
14:13:37 <futhin> <P>The first <$ #prim . $> primes are: <$  
14:13:39 <futhin> : prim?  0 over 2 max 2 ?DO  over I mod 0= or  LOOP  nip 0= ;  
14:13:41 <futhin> : prims ( n - )  0 swap  2  
14:13:43 <futhin>   swap 0 DO  dup prim? IF  swap  IF  ." , "  THEN  true swap  
14:13:45 <futhin>   dup 0 .r 1+  1  ELSE  1+  0  THEN  
14:13:48 <futhin>   +LOOP  drop ;  
14:13:49 <futhin> #prim prims $> .</P>  
14:13:51 <futhin> </BODY>  
14:13:53 <futhin> </HTML> 
14:14:04 <futhin> davidw: it gets processed by a forth first, before being sent to the user's web browser
14:14:31 <futhin> all the html tags like <HTML>, <P> etc, could be defined in forth
14:14:38 <futhin> : <P> ." <P>" ;
14:14:40 <tathi> futhin: I'd probably put it inside ASP style tags, personally
14:14:48 <davidw> <? are correct
14:14:48 <tathi> think I've got that terminology right
14:14:52 <davidw> <?forth
14:14:55 <tathi> yeah
14:15:11 <I440r> <?-- isnt it ?
14:15:35 <tathi> that's what I was thinking
14:15:45 <tathi> but currently I'm fairly happy with PHP
14:16:58 <davidw> <!-- is for comment
14:16:59 <davidw> s
14:17:04 <davidw> <? for 'processing instructions'
14:17:12 <I440r> how does the web server know to send the php stuff TO php tho ?
14:17:21 <I440r> i never understood that
14:17:30 <tathi> it doesn't, php parses the whole file
14:17:41 <I440r> aha. and does the <? tell the html WHO processes it ?
14:17:52 <I440r> <?isforth would work ?
14:17:54 <davidw> no, the .php file extension does
14:18:10 <tathi> you can set "handlers" for apache by file extension
14:18:10 <davidw> I440r: if you had the right apache module and told apache about it
14:18:28 <I440r> but the server would have to TELL php to process the whole file
14:18:28 <I440r> i.e. php would have to be part of the server itself
14:18:28 <I440r> an additio n to it
14:18:28 <I440r> aha
14:18:33 <futhin> it's EASY to implement a forth cgi thingie
14:18:46 <I440r> davidw how would i make isforth an apache module
14:19:05 <I440r> futhin cgi sucks
14:19:05 <I440r> i dont want no lame ass cgi
14:19:14 <I440r> i want forth to PRE PROCESS the html
14:19:18 <davidw> I440r: by downloading something easy to hack, like tcl-rivet
14:19:22 <I440r> the way PHP does
14:19:29 <davidw> but you would have to code C
14:19:38 <I440r> davidw: i dont do tcl
14:19:48 <I440r> i do asm and forth
14:19:48 <I440r> i refuse to do c
14:19:52 <tathi> :)
14:19:52 <davidw> I440r: no, but it's easy to hack because the api is clean
14:19:56 <davidw> ok, well, there you go
14:19:57 <I440r> befire i do c ill reverse engineer the compiled c
14:20:09 <davidw> have fun
14:20:53 <I440r> which for complex things is a non starter heh
14:20:55 <I440r> davidw if i NEVER ever ever ever even so much as LOOK at a SINGLE line of C code again it wil be a day too soon
14:21:23 <futhin> i440r: i agree wholeheartedly
14:21:33 <futhin> i understand c & c++
14:21:54 <futhin> but everytime i look at source code in c/c++ my eyes recoil in horror
14:21:56 <I440r> but i would still want to make isforht a html pre-parser
14:22:07 <futhin> what's the diff with cgi?
14:22:18 <davidw> write a web server in forth
14:22:21 <davidw> that would be cool
14:22:24 <tathi> I440r: IIRC, the apache API for modules is _relatively_ simple and fairly well documented
14:22:26 <davidw> I will include it in ZOG 
14:22:39 <futhin> davidw: already done http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/httpd-en.html
14:22:51 <I440r> i plan to do a web browser in forth
14:23:04 <tathi> davidw: I'm planning to, if I ever get stop changing my mind and get this colorforth thing off the ground :)
14:24:32 <tathi> ZOG?
14:25:15 <davidw> almost complete apache clone my ass
14:25:30 <davidw> tathi: www.dedasys.com/freesoftware
14:25:34 <davidw> click on 'projects'
14:27:07 <tathi> ah, you decided to name your eCos/ficl thing :)
14:27:35 <davidw> if you have a better name, there is still time
14:27:47 <davidw> although I kind of like naming something for King ZOG
14:28:03 <davidw> it's such an absurd sounding name...
14:28:08 <davidw> like something out of a conan movie
14:28:19 <tathi> absolutely
14:29:00 <I440r> or from a zork game heh
14:30:29 <futhin> going to gym, bbl
14:30:32 <davidw> you should try booting it up, though, it's kind of cool
14:31:02 <davidw> no wacky colorforth keys, either;-)
14:31:12 <davidw> I think it does have some of the keymaps foobared up
14:31:19 <davidw> it's developed by brits...
14:31:52 <tathi> hmm
14:35:44 <tathi> doesn't look like eCos is likely to run on my G4...
14:36:01 <tathi> I'm really going to have to pick up a couple of old x86 boxes one of these days
14:36:22 <davidw> tathi: mmmm it might, but you would have to futz with it
14:36:27 <davidw> it runs on a lot of architectures
14:36:40 <tathi> yeah, that was the impression I got
14:37:38 <davidw> hrm
14:37:43 <tathi> looks like there are a fair number of PowerPC systems it runs on
14:37:45 <davidw> no, it seems to be amongst the supported architectures
14:38:33 <davidw> you would probably have to netboot....
14:39:05 <tathi> getting something to boot shouldn't be too much of a problem
14:39:18 <tathi> you can generally just point OpenFirmware at an ELF somewhere
14:39:40 <davidw> I would try it with my tibook, but...uh, I don't feel like rebooting:-)
14:39:53 <tathi> :)
14:40:02 <CrowKiller> nice medium difficulty hardware hacking http://pages.prodigy.net/tan.ax/GBALCDProj/GBALCDProject.html
14:44:19 <davidw> eCos is well done, though
14:44:28 <davidw> you can add/subtract stuff you want or don't want
14:52:57 <davidw> tathi: you should try links or w3m instead of lynx
14:54:04 <tathi> never heard of either of them
14:54:23 <davidw> they're much better than lynx - they do tables, frames, all kinds of modern stuff
14:54:35 <tathi> ah, frames, gotcha
14:54:40 <tathi> heh
14:55:17 <tathi> I mostly just don't go back to sites that use frames
14:55:53 <tathi> And actually, I mostly use dillo, but I didn't bother building X on this machine when I re-installed Linux the last time
14:57:00 <tathi> hmm, links does javascript...scratch that
14:57:27 <davidw> does it? you can turn it off I'm sure
14:57:57 <tathi> :)
14:59:49 <tathi> just kidding...actually it's downloading right now
15:02:16 <tathi> heh, apparently javascript is a compile-time option, off by default
15:02:19 <tathi> very good :)
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15:26:48 <CrowKiller> oups wrong server ;p
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17:51:56 <I440r> argh who was skb ?
17:52:00 <I440r> sbk even heh
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19:19:38 <nothing> forth coded in asm? yuck
19:20:00 <futhin> um
19:20:05 <futhin> there's only two choices
19:20:08 <futhin> forth coded in asm
19:20:11 <futhin> or forth coded in forth
19:20:21 <nothing> what about forth coded in C or C++?
19:20:25 <futhin> OMG!
19:20:27 * futhin pukes
19:20:43 <nothing> elitist..
19:20:46 <futhin> C & C++ are utter crap diaherria shitting pissing out of your ass
19:20:47 <futhin> lol
19:20:51 <CrowKiller> elitist... lol
19:20:55 <futhin> (a little graphic, lol)
19:20:56 <CrowKiller> c and c
19:20:58 <CrowKiller> ++
19:21:05 <nothing> you can do more with C/C++ in most OSes now than you can with forth
19:21:07 <CrowKiller> coders are most of the time the elitists
19:21:14 <futhin> nothin: lol, you are dumb
19:21:27 <CrowKiller> futhin your the one telling everynewcomer
19:21:29 <CrowKiller> hes dumb
19:21:39 <CrowKiller> so you are the immature dumb person here ;p
19:21:52 <futhin> i'm allowed to call ppl dumb
19:21:56 <futhin> :P
19:22:09 <futhin> crowkiller: you aren't dumb, i took it back
19:22:13 <nothing> could you code a full-fledged WWW browser with a pretty graphical interface in forth?
19:22:16 <nothing> on the unix platform
19:22:27 <nothing> as easily as you can with C/C++?
19:22:40 <futhin> nothing: easier
19:22:48 <futhin> nothing: and i440r has plans to do such a thing
19:22:52 <CrowKiller> juts participate in the elaboration of such a system with us, nothing
19:22:54 <futhin> so chill on your ass
19:22:58 <nothing> plans != already done
19:23:03 <CrowKiller> really easy to design a forth compiler on your own
19:23:11 <futhin> nothing: what are you doing in this channel anyways?
19:24:40 <futhin> nothing: what languages do you know?
19:24:52 <nothing> i have studied many
19:24:57 <futhin> nothing: you probably think you are a skeptic or something..  a "realist"  but you are not
19:25:47 <futhin> just because many people code in c & c++ doesn't make c/c++ a good language
19:25:53 <nothing> i am fluent in c/x86 asm/sparc asm/c++/smalltalk/java/self/joy/ML/LISP/scheme/forth
19:26:11 <nothing> no, it's just that C/C++ has more functionality than any other language on current systems
19:26:23 <futhin> i take back a little of what i said
19:26:28 <nothing> more people have taken the time to write libraries and such, and APIs for those languages
19:26:39 <futhin> it's true that most current systems are easier to use thru standard programming languages
19:26:42 <futhin> like c/c++
19:27:15 <futhin> but c/c++ isn't actually a good programming language..  forth has much faster devel time and results in cleaner code
19:27:22 <futhin> if there was a forth os
19:27:35 <futhin> a general purpose desktop forth os  :)
19:27:49 <nothing> do you have any specific techincal reasons for condemning C/C++?
19:27:53 <futhin> it would be quite easy to code a web browser..  probably only need 20 blocks or so :P
19:29:29 <futhin> nothing: well i'm sure that somebody else on this channel is more qualified to answer that question, like kc5tja or i440r or mrreach
19:29:54 <futhin> but i personally find c/c++ to be a pain to code with.. slow, sluggish, crap
19:29:57 <CrowKiller> what forth would need is an xml parser and it already exist somewhere
19:30:00 <CrowKiller> ina  paper im sure
19:30:01 <nothing> i don't care, i'm just annoyed by all the damn bigot/fascist/elitists on irc
19:30:35 <CrowKiller> nothing: im not like this, dont tag me like this
19:30:42 <futhin> nothing: you said "forth coded in asm? yuck"  you were trolling
19:30:47 <CrowKiller> most of the people on this chan are warm to others actually
19:30:50 <futhin> i participated in your trolling
19:30:55 <futhin> you are a troll..
19:31:00 <futhin> and then you complain?
19:31:02 <nothing> i wasn't trolling
19:31:09 <nothing> i was making an off=hand remark
19:31:31 <futhin> why would you code forth in c and not asm? and why not code forth in forth?
19:31:35 <futhin> you said you are fluent in asm and forth ?
19:32:04 <futhin> we should define fluency in a language..  what is fluency in a language?
19:32:13 <futhin> is it knowing 80% of the language?
19:32:34 <futhin> (the 80-20 rule.. first 80% is easiest to acquire, the next 20% significantly harder)
19:34:09 <futhin> nothing: you familiar with tunes?
19:34:21 <nothing> the tunes project?
19:34:25 <futhin> yes
19:34:30 <futhin> you are on #tunes
19:34:35 <nothing> sure, i've been a lurker on their MLs and the ir irc channel since 1999
19:34:47 <futhin> read all the papers on their site?
19:34:53 <nothing> most of them
19:35:44 <futhin> what do you like about forth?
19:36:08 <nothing> modularity and brevity
19:39:15 <futhin> what's wrong with coding forth in asm?
19:40:37 <nothing> nothing, but i just hate coding any big projects in asm
19:40:41 <nothing> it's a lost cause
19:40:45 <CrowKiller> eeeeee
19:40:52 <CrowKiller> forth is really structured assembly
19:40:58 <CrowKiller> theres macros and all
19:41:09 <CrowKiller> when coding in forth you must know assembly
19:41:33 <nothing> that's ONE of the reasons i don't like forth that much :)
19:46:43 <futhin> well forth is about simplicity
19:47:00 <futhin> in fact, most forth implementations out there are much too complicated lol
19:47:15 <futhin> crowkiller convinced me we need to get back to the bare basics of forth :P
19:47:47 <futhin> forth has very little to show for itself these days
19:47:55 <futhin> but i'm confident applications will be made
19:47:59 <nothing> hehe
19:48:01 <futhin> and progress will be made
19:48:13 <futhin> there is some progress right now
19:48:22 <nothing> on the forth.org site, there's this quote that goes, "Forth is the computer industry's best kept secret"
19:48:22 <nothing> heh
19:48:42 <CrowKiller> forth is like zen
19:48:52 <CrowKiller> remove the illusion that its complicated
19:48:55 <futhin> as more and more things are coded in forth
19:49:19 <futhin> and the forth programs are more available and more open to everyone
19:49:24 <futhin> more development will be done
19:49:34 <futhin> it'll increase exponentially a little
19:49:42 <futhin> especially with the right players on the scene
19:49:53 * futhin is a player's player
19:50:00 <futhin> playa's playa!
19:50:27 <nothing> heh
19:50:28 <nothing> no
19:50:31 <nothing> you're a terrible man :)
19:50:37 <futhin> good idea
19:50:41 <futhin> i'll change it to players' player
19:50:55 <futhin> player's*
19:51:08 <futhin> (change will take effect next time i log in)
19:51:44 <nothing> ;/
19:51:48 <nothing> reconnect..
19:51:58 <nothing> although i kind of liked "a terrible man"
19:52:36 <futhin> heh :)
19:52:53 <futhin> why "a terrible man" ? :)
19:53:28 <futhin> well i agree, "a player's player" isn't really that catchy
19:53:29 <nothing> it gave me this image of you as this dark, disturbed old guy sitting at a computer plotting the murder of his enemies on irc
19:53:39 <futhin> especially without context
19:53:47 <futhin> heheh
19:53:54 <futhin> i'm actually a very nice guy
19:54:01 <futhin> one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet :P
19:54:09 <nothing> darn
19:54:20 <nothing> that shattered my mental image of you ;/
19:54:27 <nothing> how old are you?
19:54:29 <futhin> 21
19:54:37 <futhin> dirty blonde hair
19:54:38 <nothing> are you in college? got a job?
19:54:42 <futhin> hazel eyes
19:54:50 <futhin> fair complexion :P
19:55:06 <futhin> was in university
19:55:11 <futhin> taking a break at the moment
19:55:16 <futhin> started my job today
19:55:19 <nothing> ah
19:55:24 <nothing> CS major in univ?
19:55:28 <futhin> manual labour, safeway
19:55:41 <futhin> safeway warehouse
19:55:54 <nothing> do you meet any forth enthusiasts on the job? :P
19:55:59 <futhin> lol
19:56:26 <futhin> i'm getting this job because the pay is pretty good for starting with and because i have a friend who works there already
19:56:36 <futhin> i might switch to a computer job later on if i see a good one
19:57:38 <nothing> cool
19:58:12 <nothing> you should find some hot girl that is into forth :P
19:58:20 <futhin> also i'm getting pretty low on cash heh
19:58:24 <futhin> yeah
19:58:34 <nothing> what kind of computer do you use for your main workstation?
19:58:39 <futhin> a hot smart girl, maybe wearing glasses..  instant erection! ;P
19:58:42 <nothing> do you have one of those fancy ForthComputers?
19:58:48 <nothing> with the fcode-based cpu?
19:59:04 <futhin> i use a p133mhz with 32 megs of ram (actually 128 megs of ram but my mobo only recognizes 32)
19:59:24 <nothing> ;/
19:59:28 <futhin> 17" monitor..  with the monitor being slightly broken or the video card
19:59:41 <nothing> that doesn't sound like a grand old forthstation.. ;/
20:01:35 <futhin> heh
20:01:41 <futhin> well i don't waste money on computers
20:01:56 <futhin> i got the comp from my grandma
20:02:05 <nothing> ah
20:02:08 <futhin> and the only thing i've done is bought a 40 gig hdd for it
20:02:19 <futhin> and a router to share the shaw cable
20:02:29 <nothing> at least do some ghetto computing with style, buy an old sparcstation :)
20:02:35 <futhin> yeah i really want to
20:02:40 <nothing> a computer with forth built into it
20:02:44 <nothing> sparcs use Forth in openboot
20:02:48 * Soap` hides his old sparcstation
20:03:00 <CrowKiller> forth can be implented on any architecture
20:03:04 <CrowKiller> by using macros
20:03:09 <futhin> but i want to have a more stable form of shelter (i.e. a house) before i start buying up all the really cool junk
20:03:14 <CrowKiller> on x86, the speed is so high even macros do the job
20:03:18 <nothing> sure, but it is kind of cool that a computer company liked forth enough to build it into the computer itself
20:03:19 <futhin> ataris, amigas, commodores, sparcs, sgis
20:03:44 <nothing> Soap`: what kind of sparc do you have?
20:03:54 <CrowKiller> a forth computer would be easy to do in fpga, or with some networked microcontrollers or anything lol
20:04:37 <CrowKiller> nothing: I use windows, because i wont enslave myslef in linux lol
20:04:42 <CrowKiller> or bsds or the like
20:04:58 <nothing> oh ok
20:05:23 <nothing> (translation: it's too complex for me and i don't want to take the time to learn to use it)
20:05:24 <nothing> :)
20:05:37 <CrowKiller> i used linux
20:05:42 <CrowKiller> i know the basic unix commands
20:05:53 <nothing> excellent!
20:05:55 <CrowKiller> i ahve at home a linux book 1200 pages tick
20:05:58 <CrowKiller> thick
20:06:06 <futhin> i know how to get a pnp modem working in linux back in the days before it was automated! :P
20:06:09 <nothing> oo, that would make a great little doorstop
20:06:11 <CrowKiller> talking about 2.0.36 and 2.2 kernels
20:06:15 <futhin> yeah
20:06:17 <futhin> that book is crap
20:06:19 <futhin> throw it out
20:06:25 <CrowKiller> eh at the time it was good
20:06:33 <CrowKiller> it was very uptodate
20:06:34 <nothing> sounds like CrowKiller really appreciates simplicity and function
20:06:41 <CrowKiller> but when my full fledged linux system
20:06:45 <nothing> no, that ugly bloatified complicated unix crap is not for him!
20:06:49 <nothing> throw that evil stuff out!
20:06:52 <nothing> out i say, out!
20:06:54 <CrowKiller> that i built during my sumemr crashed
20:07:01 <CrowKiller> and the partition got broken
20:07:05 <CrowKiller> and all was lost
20:07:13 <nothing> oh yeah, those partitions are a tricky bunch
20:07:25 <CrowKiller> i was so discouraged i learned something very important
20:07:29 <futhin> nothing: from what i understand, crowkiller wasn't interested in computers until he got hooked on the architecture/cpu aspect..  so he's approaching the software world from a hardware perspective
20:07:37 <CrowKiller> inneficiencies suck up your time as a computer user
20:07:47 <futhin> crowkiller: and i think you are doing a really cool thing
20:07:47 <CrowKiller> each level of cimplexity suck time of your life
20:07:52 <futhin> simplifying the hardware
20:07:57 <futhin> & the software
20:08:02 <CrowKiller> eh, writables computers are great
20:08:08 <CrowKiller> with harvard buses
20:08:09 <nothing> what's crowkiller doing? designing somse Forthcpu fpga?
20:08:28 <CrowKiller> like e.g. 14bits instructions and 8 bit data
20:08:34 <CrowKiller> i read a lot of paper
20:08:35 <futhin> he's doing stuff
20:08:39 <CrowKiller> but i dont have
20:08:41 <CrowKiller> any dev tool
20:08:45 <CrowKiller> and no money lol
20:08:51 <CrowKiller> so im trying to build my own macro set
20:08:58 <CrowKiller> of essential and truly universal forth words
20:09:04 <nothing> where can i buy writeable computers?
20:09:06 <futhin> ask chuck for his vlsi cad program, it can simulate the forthchip too! ;)
20:09:18 <CrowKiller> www.ultratechnology.com
20:09:23 <CrowKiller> go there and tcheck in the papers
20:09:28 <CrowKiller> chips section i think
20:09:28 <futhin> what is a "writeable" computer ?
20:09:38 <CrowKiller> go there and read by yourself
20:09:44 <CrowKiller> a software core modifiable at will
20:09:46 <nothing> cool, thanks
20:10:00 <CrowKiller> with microcode and all updatetable when the cpld is written
20:10:08 <CrowKiller> imagine this free core
20:10:15 <CrowKiller> on a Atmel fpga
20:10:21 <CrowKiller> rewritable on the fly with cachelogic
20:10:27 <nothing> have you looked at FCPU?>
20:10:30 <nothing> Freedom CPU
20:10:32 <nothing> and opencores
20:10:32 <CrowKiller> hmmmm
20:10:36 <CrowKiller> too complicated
20:10:37 <nothing> www.opencores.org
20:10:41 --- topic: set to 'Our mantra: Good code is written code | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by futhin
20:10:41 <CrowKiller> opencores a lot
20:11:41 <CrowKiller> but its too big
20:11:53 <CrowKiller> for me tu use this kind of design
20:12:15 <CrowKiller> anyway im trying to write a vm
20:12:21 <CrowKiller> suitable for any 32 bit computer
20:12:37 <CrowKiller> any = ARM, x86, and powerpc
20:12:47 <nothing> a vm?
20:12:49 <nothing> forth vm?
20:12:52 <CrowKiller> yes
20:12:56 <CrowKiller> much like macros
20:13:10 <futhin> crowkiller: quick! define macros :)
20:13:23 <futhin> (i'm curious what definition you'll come up with..)
20:13:28 <CrowKiller> http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html
20:13:33 <CrowKiller> this is the definition ;p
20:13:46 <CrowKiller> like when I encouter dup in a forth source
20:13:56 <futhin> dup is a asm macro
20:13:57 <futhin> yeah
20:14:16 <futhin> forth is a whole bunch of macros attached together..  it outputs macros of asm
20:14:20 <futhin> a macro assembler
20:14:25 <CrowKiller> thats it
20:14:32 <CrowKiller> forth is truly the best macro assembler around
20:14:32 <CrowKiller> lol
20:15:25 <CrowKiller> like if the "if" statement only skip the following word when untrue, then it can be written
20:15:50 <CrowKiller> as asimply as jnz $+7
20:15:55 <CrowKiller> in NASM syntax
20:16:10 <CrowKiller> so theres no more then
20:16:16 <CrowKiller> to dynamically complicate things
20:16:27 <CrowKiller> only one if with dterministic output
20:16:31 <CrowKiller> add a rdrop
20:16:41 <CrowKiller> at the start of the iftrue word
20:17:03 <CrowKiller> et voilà, you get a jump tbale done entirely in forth
20:17:09 <CrowKiller> without arcane tricks
20:17:09 <futhin> hm, juniour highschool should teach forth & asm :)
20:17:16 <CrowKiller> yeah
20:17:18 <futhin> junior*
20:17:32 <futhin> economics should also be taught
20:17:36 <CrowKiller> all thoughts and calculus can be mehcanised into cumptable sequences
20:17:44 <CrowKiller> computable
20:17:46 <futhin> university economics 101 and 103 should be taught
20:17:51 <futhin> (microeconomics and macroeconomics)
20:17:58 <futhin> should be taught in junior highschool
20:18:10 <CrowKiller> imagien learning about c2=a2+b2 by coding a program yourslef proving that its right
20:18:31 <futhin> bbl, 30 minutes
20:18:40 <CrowKiller> or side*side/hyp =height of right angle triangle
20:18:53 <CrowKiller> im must sleep
20:19:00 <CrowKiller> exams start tommorow
20:19:28 <futhin> ok
20:19:29 <futhin> good night
20:19:41 <CrowKiller> im just 17, at the end of my "high school", since I live in QC, Canada the educational system is different anyway good night all
20:19:53 --- quit: CrowKiller ("Chniak!")
20:20:39 <nothing> oh wow
20:20:42 <nothing> more young'uns
20:20:53 <nothing> *sigh*, full of such idealism and hope
20:20:58 <futhin> lol
20:21:04 <futhin> oh wow
20:21:07 <futhin> more old'uns
20:21:20 <futhin> *sigh*, full of such pessimism and despair
20:21:20 * nothing is 57
20:21:22 <futhin> :P
20:21:47 <futhin> 57?  interesting..
20:22:10 <futhin> are you a computer programmer?
20:22:51 <futhin> got a website or anything?
20:22:59 <nothing> no, i'm a disgruntled old man living in his parent's basement
20:23:01 * futhin will bbl in 20 mins
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21:05:31 --- quit: futhin ("good night")
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21:49:23 <I440r> hi dsmith
21:49:39 <dsmith> I440r: greetings
21:53:23 <I440r> :)
21:53:37 <I440r> we talked b4 ?
21:53:44 <dsmith> Yep.
21:54:04 <dsmith> I'm reading http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth3.htm
21:54:06 <I440r> k heh
21:54:06 <I440r> i forget... its old age heh
21:54:23 <dsmith> I'm the guy from Cleveland
21:54:40 <I440r> aha
21:54:54 <dsmith> How old? I'm 42.
21:55:29 <I440r> im 38
21:55:44 <dsmith> Hah!
21:55:46 <I440r> oh yea i remember now heh
21:55:46 <I440r> spittin distance heh
21:55:58 <dsmith> yeah
21:57:02 <I440r> lol
22:02:39 <dsmith> Very interesting.
22:03:37 <dsmith> There is a book by DeMarco and Lister, "peopleware" I think it's called, where they talk about a contest for programmers.
22:04:02 <I440r> yea everything he writes is interesting 
22:04:06 <dsmith> You can choose any language, any size team, any environment, any skill level.
22:04:45 <dsmith> They were looking to see what makes people prodictive. well the answers are:
22:05:18 <dsmith> A door you can close, lots of horizontal surface area, and a phone that you cna turn off the ringer.
22:05:30 <dsmith> Nothing else mattered.
22:05:58 <I440r> exactly
22:06:29 <dsmith> You need lots of uninterrupted think time.
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