00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.07 00:55:25 --- quit: Soap- () 01:05:40 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:39:21 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-66-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 01:40:11 Hi davidw :) 01:54:01 --- join: Serg_penguin (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:54:16 hi 01:56:59 Hi Serg_penguin. 01:57:41 can u suggest me a good book on forth, ex for... 01:58:01 two ones of Broodie - learning and thinking ? 01:59:13 Nope. 01:59:15 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:59:18 Never read any forth book. 02:00:58 here in russia are a few native ones, but they suxx compared to Broodie 02:04:10 read "Tinking Forth" by Broodie (may miZspell) - it mega rulez 02:04:38 here - translated by hobbyst, available as file only 02:05:00 tinking = tHinking ;) 02:06:11 hi interviewed Moore for it 02:15:23 Heh... 02:15:36 Well, I have not read niether russian nor english books. 02:15:43 And definitly no swedish ones. 02:16:00 so what lang do u speak natively ? 02:16:30 german ? 02:18:20 --- quit: Serg_penguin ("spinning down - work...") 02:18:26 Heh... 02:18:43 That was one of the most stupid questions I've ever heard :) 02:19:00 Just indicated I spoke swedish... 02:22:53 --- join: NoamTuring (xru52729fj@ip4-250.vancbccqac02.dialup.ca.telus.com) joined #forth 02:23:06 Hi. 02:23:36 greetings 02:24:24 are you in .dk ? 02:24:47 Nei :) 02:24:49 .se 02:24:57 And you, Canada? 02:25:01 yes.... 02:25:02 i am located in: area code 604/778 vancouver.bc.ca * 02:25:16 what is your interest in forth? 02:25:22 What time is it over there? 02:25:37 I find forth quite neat, but I'm not very experienced. 02:26:05 it is 02.26 (a.m. / morning) here 02:27:06 I see. 02:27:26 i went to a lecture a few years ago here by C. Moore, the inventor of Forth 02:27:43 Nice. I talked to him a few weeks ago. 02:28:17 are you a programmer, software engineer, student in compsci, ... ? 02:28:29 Neither. 02:28:45 I'm just a 16 year old student, no computer science at this stage. 02:29:00 (In school, that is) 02:29:09 At home, I do of course program a bit. 02:29:24 what is your fave programming language other than Forth? (i hate Java and C++ btw ;-) 02:29:58 NoamTuring: what did he talk about? 02:30:07 and what was he doing in BC? 02:30:39 I mostly do assembly language and C. 02:30:49 he came to give a lecture at BCIT ... perhaps on a speaking tour, not sure... talked about history of forth, and his efforts to create forth-based microprocessor 02:31:07 did he say anythign really weird? 02:31:57 umm, not that i remember... he seemed slightly excentric, but so are most of the inventors and creative people i know 02:32:11 Haha 02:33:25 hey davidw i looked at your biog ... i started using Forth on a ROM cartridge that plugged into my Commodore 64 ;-) 02:34:13 mmm... I should boot up my C128 and try C64forth. 02:34:52 i was into the amiga scene for a while too, way back 02:35:11 Amiga was born before I was ;) 02:35:23 I do have an old A-500, though. 02:35:27 cool 02:35:32 i love retro hardware 02:35:37 Hehe 02:35:48 It's nice to see what non-bloated hard/software can do. 02:36:29 exactly... everything is bloatware now, even Linux and the like 02:37:36 do you have a homepage, rob_ert ? 02:37:53 Yes. 02:38:13 http://ostling.no-ip.com/ and many of my programs are on http://www.youngprogrammers.net/ 02:38:19 thanks 02:38:26 How about you? 02:39:41 for years had a page on mindlink.net but it was basically a text-only portable bookmark file organised the way i think... don't bother now 02:39:51 :) 02:42:01 the easiest way to tell at a glance if text is danish/norwegian or swedish is by looking for å ? or how? 02:47:45 --- part: NoamTuring left #forth 03:06:24 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 04:32:56 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:15:52 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:15:52 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:56:28 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 06:03:04 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust41.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:11:58 --- join: _MrReach_ (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 07:13:07 --- quit: Etaoin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:13:07 --- quit: MrGone (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:13:10 mrreach! 07:13:10 hi 07:13:32 one of you at home, the other at work ? 07:18:02 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk3-7.sat.net) joined #forth 07:22:49 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 07:22:55 Hey there 07:23:06 How would one cleanly implement " ? 07:23:24 I did HEX : " 22 PARSE ; IMMEDIATE 07:23:35 but that leaves the buffer in the pad 07:23:47 i.e. 07:23:51 0 > " test" TYPE 07:23:51 test ok 07:23:51 0 > " test" 07:23:51 ok 07:23:51 2 > TYPE 07:23:52 PEst ok 07:24:41 that would work 07:24:57 well you need to do 07:25:04 here 07:25:04 OOOH 07:25:15 no. your parsing it but your not compiling it to anywhere 07:25:25 exactly 07:25:26 you need to place it 07:25:33 parse usually parses to here 07:25:42 ack 07:25:57 : " $22 parse here c@ 1+ allot ; 07:26:06 that might work 07:26:35 but its bad form because it stores the data in its compiled location before alloting it heh 07:26:35 shit. I have no ALLOT yet. 07:27:07 allot is just dp +! 07:27:07 dp @ + dp ! 07:27:19 do you have a "here" ? 07:27:27 yes 07:28:09 and a dp ? 07:28:09 then just do : allot dp @ + dp ! ; 07:28:09 :) 07:28:59 or you can do : allot here + dp ! ; hehe 07:29:15 I dont have DP. what does it do? 07:29:46 data pointer? 07:30:27 its the dictionary pointer 07:30:40 its says where HERE points to 07:30:47 usually DP is not visible to users 07:30:56 other than by using the word here 07:30:56 : here dp @ ; 07:33:00 --- join: Serg_penguin (~snaga_NOI@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:33:17 hi 07:34:15 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 07:35:42 fly by ? 07:38:59 I440r: HERE is a prim word in this implementation. does it make sense to make allot a prim word as well? or rather make DP visible? 07:39:45 i made dp visible but its usually not good form to allow users to do 100 dp +! heh 07:39:55 or dp @ 1000 - dp ! etc 07:40:05 here and allot are both primatives 07:40:15 they are part of the compiler 07:40:25 here us mostly used to remember an address for later 07:40:36 instead of creating a label on that address 07:41:59 : begin here ; 07:42:02 begin 07:42:05 .... 07:42:06 .... 07:42:08 .... 07:42:29 : again compile branch , ; 07:42:55 this compiles a branch and then commas in the address left on the stack by begin 07:48:23 there's a HERE+ which does interpreter->here += (dp--)->n; 07:48:28 isnt that allot? 07:49:10 err i dunno i cant read that. hehe does it add N to dp ? 07:49:57 it adds the top stack element to interpreter->here, which seems to be DP in that case 07:50:09 here is (++dp)->a = interpreter->here; 07:51:46 why is here incrementing dp ? all its supposed to do is fetch it 07:52:10 unless dp is realy the forht stack and its stoing HERE on the stack 07:52:42 i think thats what it is. 07:52:51 dp in this code is realy SP 07:52:59 and if thats so the above code IS allot 07:53:18 here+ i mean 07:53:45 dp seems to be TOS? 07:53:57 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool36-214.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:54:21 possibly yes 07:54:33 seems that way to me heh 07:54:48 but i dont know what the -> a and the -> n are 07:54:53 i know what they are 07:54:59 i just dont know what a and n are heh 07:55:20 maybe they refer to the same location within a union 07:55:30 one being typed as an address the other as a number 07:57:43 the ->a ->n stuff accesses different types in the Cell union 07:57:57 ack 07:58:02 I am too slow today :) 07:58:27 yup 07:58:34 thats what i was guessing 07:59:32 so why did the fool call the top of stack DP lol 08:04:40 dunno.. i wrote a mail asking him.. 08:04:57 he's not a fool.. rather pretty clueful, normally. but we'll see 08:05:05 i gotta go :( 08:05:06 see you 08:05:09 --- quit: Stepan ("Do you think it is air you are breathing? Hmm?") 08:05:35 heh 08:58:29 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:02:14 --- quit: davidw (Remote closed the connection) 09:13:39 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-66-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 09:54:18 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@p508475CF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:54:48 re 10:33:01 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 10:36:06 --- join: Jukka (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 10:37:18 --- quit: mur (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:37:57 --- nick: Jukka -> mur 10:38:23 g4: : >>a rshift ; : 3drop 2drop drop ; hex 4666 dup negate do i 4000 dup 2* negate do " *" 0 dup 2dup 1e 0 do 2swap * e >>a 2* 5 pick + -rot - j + dup dup * e >>a rot dup dup * e >>a rot swap 2dup + 10000 > if 3drop 3drop " " 0 dup 2dup leave then loop 2drop 2drop type 268 +loop cr drop 5de +loop 10:39:59 it jammed 10:42:53 uh.. why? 10:44:40 Stepan - what is HEX for? 10:45:31 gforth: 1 . 10:46:04 cleverdra: : HEX h#10 BASE ; 10:46:12 BASE ! 10:46:14 even 10:46:23 it sets the base of the number scanner to hex 10:55:17 Stepan - it does it in an, um, interesting way. 10:55:46 Not that I see the way, because your code stops at one of the +LOOPs 11:26:12 cleverdra: the code should paint a fractal... it is signature length 11:26:29 but i cant get it to less then 4 lines.. :( 12:12:14 oh, woopsy. I thought you said : hex 12:12:40 Stepan - even if gforth were working, I don't think that it would like DO...LOOP in interpret-mode 12:13:26 ah.. the : HEX code should be : HEX h#10 BASE ! ; 12:13:46 yes, I know, I meant in g4: above 12:13:54 I thought everything after HEX was the definition of HEX 12:14:11 hm 12:14:31 you have -- >>a 2* -- there. Is this a mistake? 12:16:40 the * e >>a does scaled int multiplication 12:17:26 yes. but : x >>a 2* ; is equivalent to : y 1- >>a ;, no? 12:17:57 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust187.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 12:18:19 good point 12:18:49 Hey I440r 12:19:06 hi 12:19:21 i just created a freshmeat account for isforth heh 12:20:53 I440r: seems : " 22 PARSE HERE C@ 1+ ALLOT ; does not work correctly 12:21:02 0 > : " 22 PARSE ; 12:21:03 ok 12:21:03 0 > " fooo" HERE .S 12:21:03 1200199f2 4 200001bc070 ok 12:21:38 the PARSE pad is far from the dictionary 12:22:15 is the prompt 0 > ? 12:22:47 pad is ususally at here 80 + heh 12:23:07 3 > is the prompt after the above op 12:23:21 it gives you the depth 12:23:22 cool 12:23:28 yes 12:23:29 isforth does that in the status bar 12:23:41 thats what i thunked it was, just chekin :) 12:24:11 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:25:27 --- join: nothing (nm@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:28:24 I440r: ISFORTH IX86-ONLY = 12:28:26 ? 12:28:33 --- join: dsmith (~dsmith@216.29.133.85) joined #forth 12:28:47 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.4) joined #forth 12:29:05 Hey Speuler 12:29:17 hi stepan 12:29:21 g'day all 12:29:33 unted_stepan :) 12:29:35 united 12:30:09 :) 12:30:23 how's the yast rewrite progressing ? 12:31:16 i dropped the idea... 12:31:25 *hide* 12:31:40 Speuler: I have nothing to do with this management stuff ;) 12:31:59 hmm 12:32:15 i recall you intended a rewrite of yast in forth 12:32:24 Yes. me too. 12:32:47 but then again - I am trying to get OpenBIOS somewhere - which does the world more good in the end ;) 12:32:53 gotta go.. brb soon 12:33:05 agree 12:33:06 (hunt food) 12:33:42 enjoy phood 12:37:01 hunt it. shoot it. barbecue it :) 12:38:38 heh 12:38:42 I440r = Ted Nugent 12:40:02 nothing lol its not quite a direct quote heh 12:40:19 i think he says hut it kill it grill it or something 12:40:33 or maybe just kill it and grill it 12:40:44 ted nugent is way cool 12:43:33 so i take it you're one of these "gun nut" NRA guys? 12:49:09 dood there are 40+ handguns in this house 12:49:15 I440r: So what kind of guitar is a I440 anyway? 12:49:20 my kimbe 45 is less than 3 feet away :) 12:49:22 Ibanez 12:49:25 440 radius 12:49:47 erm Kimber 1911 45 acp even <0-- my gun, not my guitar heh 12:50:07 you can see fotos of 2 of my guns on the ftp on THIS ip 12:52:04 re 12:53:21 I440r: So what kind of guitar is an Ibanez 440 radius? (/me hasn't looked at guitars in a *looong* time) 12:54:12 its the guitar that joe satriani uses 12:54:25 they are VERY good guitars :) 12:54:30 sexy lookin even :) 12:54:44 solid body? 12:55:17 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 12:56:10 yes solid body 12:56:13 electric guitar 12:59:19 I've got a gibson pro, which is basically a 335. 13:03:27 --- quit: dsmith ("later..") 13:05:11 nice 13:05:14 gibsons are cool 13:09:48 --- quit: Speuler (Remote closed the connection) 13:11:46 so I440r 13:11:55 do you get into arguments alot over gun control? 13:12:05 like people who are staunchly for regulating guns to oblivion? 13:20:52 me ? 13:20:54 no 13:20:59 gun control is stupid 13:21:10 and all the gun grabbers are LOSING their battle 13:21:38 for instance sarah brady and Handgun Control Inc (HCI) are going bankrupt 13:21:54 because people dont WANT gun control 13:22:24 i subscribe to the G Gordon Lidey (i thin i spelt that rite) method of gun control 13:22:30 i.e. hitting what you aim at 13:31:05 do you know who ESR is? 13:31:37 Eric S. Raymond 13:31:51 http://tuxedo.org/~esr/guns/ 13:31:59 check out that, he reminds me of you kinda, with the gun stance 13:32:38 nothing do a web search for "a nation of cowards" read it and tell me you still feel the same way 13:32:40 ill go read this 13:32:53 heey, please go to http://www.pienikarhu.tk/ so i can see how the stats work 13:33:16 brb 13:33:22 making coffee 13:34:39 http://selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=test01 13:34:42 Gun test 13:34:50 According to that test, i'd be the H&K CAWS :) 13:35:00 some kind of shotgun i assume 13:36:07 no h&k make all kinds 13:37:04 what do you think of the Druganov? 13:37:26 nothing that web page you gave me has a LINK to "a nation of cowards" 13:37:31 READ THAT!!!! 13:38:54 yeah i'm reading it right now 13:40:17 I440r, what do you know of the GE XM214? 13:40:25 when you have read it tell me if you have changed your mind any about guns 13:40:26 or the Alliant OICW? 13:40:33 ge xm214 ? 13:40:37 yes 13:40:39 nothing that i know of 13:40:40 General Electric 13:40:44 what is it ? 13:40:46 minigun 13:40:52 http://members.shaw.ca/stanryker/test01/test01minigun.htm 13:40:56 looks intimidating 13:41:36 guns arent intended to intimidate GOOD people :) 13:42:06 I440r, what do you think of the H&K G11? 13:43:21 all H&K guns are very good 13:43:27 but they can be expensive 13:43:36 all high quality tho 13:43:53 i carry a kimber... also high quality/ high reliability 13:44:25 im not familiar with all H&K products tho :) 13:45:34 * rob_ert pets his nothing. 13:47:01 Just one more reason to learn martial arts. We're going through a similar period as what Japan did back in the 1800s, when the Japanese government forbade the citizens to use weapons of any kind. Karate was the result. Utterly devestated the Samari, with all of their swords and nagenatas... 13:47:40 Good. Forbid all weapons. 13:48:49 kc5 the anti gun crowd is losing their battle, all those laws they got ILLEGALLY enacted are being thrown OUT 13:49:22 hmm 13:49:26 You under-estimate your enemy. That will be your undoing. 13:49:31 wouldn't banning guns lower the rate of crime though? 13:49:47 less guns out there, less of a chance for criminals to obtain one 13:49:56 kc5 i think its the anti gun crowd over estimating how much the americans want gun control 13:50:06 nothing absolute bullshit 13:50:36 make guns illegal and ONLY the crimanals will have them 13:50:54 but anyway.... 13:51:02 Heh 13:51:08 i need to write shit for isforth. like a tutorial or something 13:51:09 Is that a bad thing, I440r? 13:51:14 nothing: That is a patently FALSE assumption. Ever heard of black market? 13:51:37 it will stop the casual criminal from getting a gun easily 13:51:37 kc5tja: (Hint: a black market IS criminal :) 13:51:50 No it won't. 13:51:52 i respect everyones right to NOT carry a gun. i respect their right to speak out against guns 13:52:09 i do not respect their attemts to remove MY RIGHTS to carry one 13:52:11 I know where to get nunchuka, but I bet you didn't know they are illegal here in California. 13:52:32 kc5 everything is illegal in california 13:52:45 california is the most unconstitutional state in the union 13:52:55 how is it your *right* though? 13:53:19 the bill of rights was written in a time when advanced tactical weapons you can purchase nowadays didn't exist 13:53:23 nothing: It's my right to carry bare arms (e.g., non-concealed weapons) as per the second amendment to the United States Constitution. 13:53:25 nothing "the RIGHT of the PEOPLE to KEEP AND BEAR arms shall NOT be infringed" 13:53:41 the sole reason that was added to the constitution was because of the constant threat of war (revolutionary, civil) 13:53:45 It's our right because Britain forbade such a right from the initial settlers of this country. 13:53:58 kc5 the constitution doesnt state concealed nor non concealed. it just says BEAR arms. 13:54:06 in my pocket or in my hand 13:54:15 Uh... 13:54:16 BARE 13:54:17 the constitution is bunk 13:54:20 It's 250 years. 13:54:30 it doesn't apply always to modern times 13:54:35 erm bare i mean heh 13:54:36 Back then, black people were slaves, in your wonderful land. 13:54:41 bare also means "plain," and plain is meant in the context of plain sight. 13:54:52 You had death penalty... 13:54:55 Oh, wait... 13:54:57 You still have, 13:55:00 Barbars.. :) 13:55:16 rob_ert is barbar or barbie or? 13:55:22 nothing: Bunk how? 13:55:29 mur: You are a barbie, I440r is a barbar :D 13:55:35 rob_ert i doubt 13:55:39 :) 13:55:41 rob_ert: Barbarian by the way. 13:55:48 I see. 13:55:51 * mur is back from UIAH 13:55:53 * rob_ert uses swedish too much :) 13:55:55 40 hours of selection tests 13:55:59 rob_ert learn finnish 13:56:14 No. 13:56:20 Finnish is an evil language. 13:56:34 yes if you want to use it evily 13:56:43 and smart if you want to use it like that and 13:56:44 anyway 13:56:48 beautiful when used like that 13:56:54 but swedish soudns foul all the time 13:57:02 I440r: these days the gov't can easily protect its citizens, there really is no need for common citizens to bear arms 13:57:25 nothing: You mean it's not anarchy anymore? :( 13:57:36 rob_ert you dont evenk whw what anarcytl is 13:57:44 nothing: These days, we can easily be abused by the government too. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 13:57:54 oh, that's just quoted babble 13:58:00 mur: And you can´t type. 13:58:01 the government is there to defend the US citizens 13:58:03 nothing: Prove me wrong. 13:58:20 kc5tja: you're just quoting unamerican sentiments that you can't verify 13:58:22 From foreign invasion, yes, I'll agree. 13:58:28 nothing: Hitler. 13:58:34 nothing: Saddam Hussein 13:58:39 nothing: The Taliban 13:58:43 nothing: Stalin 13:58:48 Want me to quote more? 13:58:57 King Henry 13:59:04 Queen Elizabeth 13:59:14 These people all corrupted the government in their own way. 13:59:24 Napoleon 13:59:31 Caesar (all of them) 13:59:42 well, it surely can't happen in the USA 13:59:47 My ass. 13:59:49 t already has. 14:00:23 New York state governer Cuomo has utterly RUINED that state for business forever. 14:00:46 All money is diverted to NY city now, leaving middle and upstate NY in a state of complete financial disarray. 14:00:59 Pataki only re-inforces it now, because NY is such a strong voting force. 14:01:17 do you live in NY? 14:01:24 For 24 years. 14:01:33 so you were born there? 14:01:36 I currently live in California now, because of Cuomo and Pataki. 14:01:37 Yes 14:01:44 interesting 14:01:55 in upper NY, or NYC? 14:01:58 Utica, NY 14:02:41 btw, how's dolphin nowadays? 14:02:43 is it a dead project? 14:02:58 Not really, but nothing public as of yet. 14:03:03 I'm writing its Forth compiler now. 14:03:18 (Dolphin 0.5 will be written in Forth; previous versions were written in C) 14:04:03 i assume you got fed up with C? :P 14:04:28 i guess it's a noble effort to avoid making Yet Another C Kernel 14:08:26 It's not that I'm unhappy with C; it's just that I'm finding my development time with Forth is significantly faster, and the interactive environment is a nice bonus to have (it doubles as its own debugger of sorts). 14:08:47 My unhappiness with C is of course an issue, but not the overwhelming factor. 14:09:27 I want to be able to maintain the code much faster than anybody else too. Since Forth development is a lot faster for me, I can apply bug fixes and patches in minutes while it takes Linux developers days. 14:10:05 Only the absolute most critical patches were applied in hours in Linux, but that's still some 60x longer than "a few minutes." :) 14:11:16 Plus, Forth's treatment of strings as separate address/length pairs virtually guarantees no buffer overflows will EVER occur; C doesn't have this advantage. One must work twice as hard to write more secure software in C, making sure to always use strncpy(), for example, instead of strcpy(). But strncpy() may OR MAY NOT null-terminate a string. IN Forth, NULL-terminated strings aren't needed, since the length is supplied implicitly. 14:11:23 s/implicitly/explicitly/ 14:11:42 Hence, it should be much easier to make a 100% secure box using Forth than it should be with C. 14:16:37 * kc5tja goes for food 14:16:39 so you're kind of relying on the fact that buffer overflows comprise the majority of security flaws? 14:16:53 Nope. 14:17:00