00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.06
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03:23:09 <Serg_penguin> hi
05:16:44 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
05:16:44 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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05:54:00 <davidw> sif: sh echo hello world
05:54:02 <sif> davidw:   Word not found: sh
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06:11:19 <Serg_penguin> hi
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08:15:36 <rob_ert> Hoi :)
08:15:47 <segher> howdy
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12:07:00 <I440r> hi nothing :)
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12:46:08 --- nick: rob_ert -> lame_kunphuzil
12:47:28 --- nick: lame_kunphuzil -> rob_ert
12:55:38 <I440r> stop being mean to kunph
12:55:41 <I440r> he is a newbie
12:55:45 <I440r> :)
13:23:04 <rob_ert> (He's not in this channel)
13:29:00 <I440r> i know :P
13:29:05 <rob_ert> Bah.
13:29:17 <rob_ert> You don't have to tell me not to troll with newbies.
13:29:28 <rob_ert> I thought that comment was meant to him, not me ;D
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13:30:08 <I440r> heh
13:31:38 <I440r> argh was tcn online!
13:31:57 <I440r> no it was a different tcn heh
13:36:54 <I440r> rob_ert: you there ?
13:37:06 <rob_ert> Yeah.
13:37:17 <I440r> could you go to www.subaru-isuzu.com and tell me if you get a blank page with a little writing at the bottom ?
13:37:19 <I440r> thats all i get
13:37:46 * rob_ert checks.
13:38:07 <nothing> i get a full page
13:38:10 <nothing> with an ugly car on it
13:38:15 <rob_ert> Uhm
13:38:27 <rob_ert> I440r: It asks me if I want to download a flash plugin, heh...
13:38:33 <rob_ert> (Flash sucks :)
13:38:36 <rob_ert> Hey nothing, btw.
13:38:40 <I440r> i dont get that. is there any links ther to a contact page ?
13:38:43 <rob_ert> Didn't know you were a forther.
13:38:51 <I440r> im trying to find a number for them
13:39:43 <nothing> hey
13:39:47 <nothing> they should make a car
13:39:50 <nothing> that is powered by Fcode
13:40:03 <rob_ert> Sure.
13:40:13 <rob_ert> So we all see how bad it crashes.
13:40:13 <I440r> rob is there a contact link in there ?
13:40:16 <rob_ert> Great idea!
13:40:19 <rob_ert> I440r: Nope.
13:40:29 <rob_ert> I440r: I can't see anything but the bottom text.
13:40:34 <rob_ert> No leet flash plugin here ;)
13:40:50 <I440r> fuck
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13:59:18 <rob_ert> nothing: Stay here, and look cool and mature.
13:59:18 <rob_ert> (Sorry for harassing you, but I am this childish)
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14:11:12 <CrowKiller> hi
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14:14:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83
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14:53:04 <CrowKiller> hi
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15:37:52 <futhin> hello tcn
15:38:22 <tcn> hwody
15:39:34 <futhin> doing any forth coding these days?
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15:40:21 <I440r> tcn!!!
15:40:23 <I440r> dood :)
15:40:39 <tcn> hey, what's up?
15:44:06 <I440r> bleh he prolly died at the keyboard :P
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15:45:14 <I440r> mrreach! :)
15:45:21 <MrReach> hihi! I'm back from California
15:45:26 <I440r> just fixed a few realy bad bugs in isforth hehe
15:45:39 <MrReach> that's always good to hear
15:45:43 <I440r> i was passing the parameters to munmap in the wrong order
15:45:53 <I440r> which made the new blazingly fast fload segfault sometimes heh
15:45:54 <MrReach> still being nagged by the uni-forth thing
15:46:06 <MrReach> ack!
15:46:07 <I440r> and i was reading from stdout and writing to stdin :P
15:46:16 <MrReach> forth is bad about that, GIGO
15:46:40 <tcn> uni-forth? huh?
15:46:45 <I440r> linux was allowing me to write to stdin and read from stdout
15:46:48 <I440r> tcn!
15:47:07 <MrReach> tcn: a forth that works identically across all platforms, like tk
15:47:19 <kc5tja> brb -- food
15:47:20 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food
15:47:46 <tcn> mrreach: oh yeah, sounds pointless.
15:48:07 <I440r> linux allows you to read from a write only fd and write to a read only fd
15:48:16 <MrReach> heh, I find it rather amusing that many embedded systems have used text sources burned into eprom ... don't know what made me think of that just now
15:48:23 <I440r> but reading from stdout doesnt see anything piped into stdin, ONLY the keyboard
15:48:36 <MrReach> tcn: why is that?
15:49:01 <MrReach> I440r: were you checking return codes during the reads/writes?
15:49:07 <I440r> no
15:49:25 <I440r> but writing to stdin works if your only writing to the console
15:49:26 <futhin> oh lol
15:49:28 <futhin> mrreach!
15:49:30 <I440r> i.e. not PIPING out
15:49:35 <futhin> mrreach: lol, i just sent you an email
15:49:45 <MrReach> oh? why?
15:49:54 <futhin> missed you :P
15:49:54 <MrReach> saw me on ICQ?
15:49:56 <futhin> no
15:50:21 <futhin> missed you because i read a bunch of real estate investing books and you weren't around :P
15:50:26 <MrReach> it hasn't arrived yet
15:51:09 <MrReach> well, I'm still uncertain which direction to move in, but I feel much better
15:51:46 <futhin> i sent the email a few seconds ago, typing it up while you appeared on irc and i didn't notice you were here
15:51:52 <futhin> sent it to mrreach@bigfoot.com
15:52:15 <MrReach> ok, it'll get here shortly
15:52:46 <futhin> i didn't know you went to california
15:52:51 <futhin> thought you bought the computer shop or something heh
15:53:06 <MrReach> no, that happens when I return from Nebraska
15:53:39 <MrReach> poor little car is getting a *LOT* of miles real quick
15:56:00 <futhin> heh, my dad's 1994 mazda truck had only like 110,000 kms until i got it for the year..  put 20,000 kms on it already :P
15:56:06 <nothing> mazda? ugh
15:56:07 <segher> quick question: is U.R supposed to left-fill with spaces, or with zeroes?
15:56:15 <nothing> doesn't chuck moore drive a mazda? :P
15:56:17 <I440r> spaces
15:56:22 <MrReach> spaces
15:56:27 <segher> ok, thanks :)
15:56:57 <MrReach> you might want to build a 0.R and U0.R ... just for grins and giggles
15:57:27 <segher> heh...  i'm just doing the _required_ words for Open Firmware, right now ;)
15:57:39 <MrReach> This one is an '89 Toyota Camry station wagon ... a granny car
15:57:48 <nothing> shits and giggles you mean?
15:58:19 <MrReach> no, didn't mean that, but it works nearly as well
15:58:43 <futhin> death to the cliches!
15:59:05 <tcn> station wagons are great, plenty of room for shit, or you could sleep in back :)
15:59:33 <MrReach> well, I would sleep in it, but the rear is about 1.5 inches shorter than I am tall
15:59:40 <segher> FORGET CLICHES
15:59:50 <MrReach> (when the seats are folded down)
16:14:20 <MrReach> ooops, I gotta go, not sure when back
16:14:31 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
16:21:24 <davidw> drinking game
16:21:34 <davidw> every time I440r says 'lol' - you drink
16:21:38 <I440r> lol
16:22:07 * tcn fetches a bottle of rum
16:23:39 <CrowKiller> hey on x86, this can happen:
16:23:40 <CrowKiller> In the real-address mode, if the ESP or SP register is 1 when the PUSH instruction is executed, the processor shuts down due to a lack of stack space. No exception is generated to indicate this condition.
16:24:47 <segher> luckily, no sane person uses "real mode"
16:27:58 <I440r> Pmode = Pretend Mode :)
16:35:52 <tcn> i gotta sign off for now.. bye
16:36:02 <I440r> l8er dood
16:36:04 <CrowKiller> see ya
16:36:49 <I440r> and i didnt mention the assembler ONCE!!!
16:36:58 <tcn> hehe
16:37:06 <futhin> i440r: what's going on?! you aren't lolling and i ain't dringing!
16:37:14 --- part: tcn left #forth
16:37:19 <I440r> oh sorry
16:37:20 <I440r> lol
16:37:23 <futhin> lol!
16:37:30 <Fracta|> lol
16:37:33 <futhin> :P
16:37:44 * futhin drinks water
16:37:46 <I440r> my sis brung home a stray dog. i think its mostly wolf too
16:37:54 <I440r> VERY wolflike
16:38:27 <Fracta|> Brung... Doesn't seem to be in my dictionary. How odd...
16:38:32 <Fracta|> Must be defective.
16:38:44 <futhin> next you know, she'll brung home a wolflike guy :P
16:38:46 <Fracta|> I'll call Oxford. They'll recall, I'm sure.
16:38:59 <I440r> oxford ?
16:39:03 <CrowKiller> for looping constructs on the x86, is there something better than using ecx as counter just for that and do JECXZs to test for loop constructs?
16:39:22 <Fracta|> Ya. Can you imagine a prestigous dictionary like there's not having the common word "brung" in it?
16:39:32 <Fracta|> Theirs
16:39:37 <Fracta|> How ironic.
16:39:38 <I440r> better to do dec ecx followed by jne
16:39:51 <I440r> yea. dumbasses
16:39:53 <kc-food> nothing: I drive a Mazda.  What's wrong with Mazdas?
16:40:11 <Fracta|> You know damn right what's wrong with mazdas.
16:40:17 <Fracta|> Nazi.
16:40:19 <I440r> ford doesnt make them ?
16:40:20 <I440r> heh
16:40:35 <kc-food> Ford owns Mazda, and Mazda designed the 200x series Mustangs, so go figure.
16:41:00 <Fracta|> Ya, we don't wanna hear anymore of your fascist propaganda, mazda driving nazi.
16:41:00 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja
16:41:02 <I440r> ugh the 2k series mustangs LOOK LIKE SHIT
16:41:04 <I440r> actyally heh
16:41:15 <I440r> actually i think all mustangs after 66 LOOK LIKE SHIT
16:41:21 <kc5tja> I440r: But their engine kicks ass.
16:41:26 <I440r> which is why i own a 76 heh
16:41:46 * kc5tja drives a Mazda RX-7 -- rotary engine.
16:41:50 <I440r> kc6 yea like those GT' a box on wheels with a very big engine. that DOENT make the damned things a mustang tho
16:42:05 <kc5tja> Yeah it does
16:42:12 <kc5tja> Mustangs have *NEVER* had good handling.
16:42:14 <Fracta|>  /mode #forth +b kc5tja!*@*.neonaziparty.de
16:42:16 <kc5tja> They've always been a muscle car.
16:42:19 <I440r> nope. its just a car with the same name
16:42:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
16:42:30 <I440r> heh
16:42:30 <Fracta|> Heh. Shit.
16:42:32 <I440r> lol
16:43:05 <segher> (drink)
16:43:10 <Fracta|> A NAZI RUNS #FORTH!!!! AHHHH!!
16:43:12 <futhin> blah, had to op yourself kc? :P
16:43:35 --- kick: Fracta| was kicked by kc5tja (Once is enough, twice is too much.)
16:43:35 --- join: Fracta| (zopqss@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth
16:43:43 <Fracta|> Damn nazis. ;)
16:43:48 <I440r> lol
16:43:50 <kc5tja> Don't make me fucking ban you.
16:43:51 <I440r> drink!
16:44:02 <nothing> is it true futhin is a terrible man?
16:44:06 <Fracta|> You would wouldn't you, Adolf?
16:44:12 <kc5tja> Yes, I would.
16:44:21 <futhin> nothing: no, i just couldn't think of anything clever to put there
16:44:21 <Fracta|> Heh.
16:44:32 <kc5tja> Cool it and behave yourself NOW.
16:44:33 <futhin> i'm a nice guy :D
16:44:40 <nothing> futhin: terrible, terrible man...
16:44:47 <Fracta|> Ja. Heil.
16:45:33 <segher> ban! ban! ban! ;)
16:45:45 <Fracta|> Heh. kc knows I'm just fucking with him.
16:46:02 <segher> well it's not funny, really
16:46:17 <kc5tja> You're on the auto-kick list, which will also auto-ban you.
16:46:29 <kc5tja> All I need to do is boot you off.
16:46:34 <Fracta|> Ah. How convenient. We've got a channel full of nazi sympathizers...
16:46:36 <kc5tja> In other words, "Last chance, baby."
16:46:39 <nothing> kc5tja: kick him, the channel will just lose some noise
16:46:43 --- part: Fracta| left #forth
16:47:12 <kc5tja> I will *NOT* put up with that kind of behavior on a channel of this nature.
16:47:13 <futhin> what's wrong with fracta| ?
16:47:27 <futhin> just the nazi comments?
16:47:40 <kc5tja> This is no less than the third time he has deliberately interfered with my conversations in a very derogatory manner.
16:47:51 <nothing> doesn't look like he cares much about forth
16:48:44 <kc5tja> I value discipline and honesty, and above all, courtesy.
16:49:39 <kc5tja> And although I know this isn't my channel, I believe I440r will not have any complaint with my "administrative decision."
16:49:45 <nothing> kc5tja, are you a part of the stampede linux team?
16:49:56 <kc5tja> No, but a close friend of mine is.
16:50:12 <kc5tja> While my Linux box is down, he's letting me use the Stampede box for IRC access.
16:50:18 <nothing> oh
16:53:45 <kc5tja> At any rate...  back to business as usual.  :)
16:57:15 --- mode: ChanServ set -o kc5tja
16:57:23 <kc5tja> There.  No need for that for the time being.
16:57:32 <I440r> kc5 its not my channel either kc5
16:57:34 <I440r> its futhins
16:57:42 <kc5tja> Oh, I thought it was yours...
16:57:42 <I440r> ijust THINK its mine :)
16:57:46 <I440r> it is and it isnt
16:57:54 <I440r> i started it, futhin now manages it
16:57:54 <kc5tja> mm....  Time to ban you too... ;D
16:57:58 <futhin> it's his, i just own it for him ;P
16:58:10 <kc5tja> THOU SHALT NOT DECEIVE ME!!  ;-P
16:58:13 <futhin> to make sure he doesn't do anything stupid (like unregister it again) ;)
16:58:19 <I440r> lol
16:58:22 <kc5tja> Ahh, I see.
16:58:28 <segher> it's not huthin's channel, either, actually.  it's OPN's channel.
16:59:41 * kc5tja is trying out this happy hacker's keyboard.
17:00:19 <kc5tja> It's neat in a sense that it's quite small, but I'm not happy with the key travel, nor am I quite happy with the "typing on mushrooms" feel it has.
17:00:49 <kc5tja> I'll keep trying it for a couple more days, but I don't think my opinion of it is going to change all that much.
17:01:03 <kc5tja> But it *IS* small...and that's a nice feature going for it.
17:01:11 <nothing> i like sun type5c keyboards
17:01:22 <kc5tja> This keyboard is modeled on the Sun keyboard layout.
17:01:30 <kc5tja> Instead of windows keys, it has diamond keys.  :)
17:01:59 <kc5tja> And the backslash, tilde, and delete keys (what would be called backspace on PC keyboards) all follow the Sun Type 5 layout.
17:02:00 <nothing> nothing like the real thing
17:02:08 <nothing> (pun not intended)
17:02:17 <I440r> lol (drink)
17:02:29 <kc5tja> Well, I really like the Microsoft Natural keyboard's layout and feel -- what I HATE about it is the fact that it is so hhuuggee..
17:02:34 <Soap`> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/3/18/201330/044
17:02:37 <kc5tja> There's no reason fro a keyboard to be that big.
17:02:53 <I440r> that has to be one of the UUGLEEist keyboards ive ever seen
17:03:06 <I440r> heh
17:03:35 <nothing> sun keyboard is bigger than the MS natural
17:03:48 <kc5tja> Soap`: nice!!  I like it!  I'm forwarding the link to the owner of the keyboard... :)
17:03:48 <I440r> ok im bored
17:04:11 <kc5tja> It is ugly.  Don't get me wrong.  But it is designed more for comfort than anything else.  It's the fastest keyboard I've ever used.
17:04:19 <I440r> its practical
17:04:22 <I440r> erganomic
17:04:25 <I440r> UGLY
17:04:26 <I440r> heh
17:04:40 <kc5tja> Yup.
17:04:51 <kc5tja> Like the BMW Z3 -- butt-ugly car, but damn it is a niiice car.  :)
17:05:18 <I440r> i want a TVR
17:05:25 --- quit: segher ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?")
17:05:27 <I440r> i used to live near their factory in england
17:05:28 <kc5tja> TVR?
17:05:31 <I440r> they make every car to order
17:05:36 <I440r> each one unique
17:05:43 * kc5tja wouldn't mind a Chevrolet CERV-IV.... :D
17:05:50 <I440r> small sports cars
17:05:59 <I440r> you can have one for about $289429847625987498245982469528469286
17:06:01 <I440r> ish
17:08:50 <kc5tja> Hahaha...sweet.
17:09:00 <kc5tja> Chevrolet Corvette Mako Shark -- http://www.autoreview.ru/new_site/year2001/n16/lapin/800/ku-01.jpg
17:09:27 <I440r> wouldnt mind an ac cobra either
17:10:43 <nothing> i want a Vector W8
17:10:50 <nothing> if anyone's heard of that car
17:11:10 <futhin> sif: 350 2.2 * .
17:11:11 <sif> futhin:   Word not found: 2.2
17:11:20 <futhin> oops
17:11:21 <futhin> :P
17:11:23 <nothing> sif: 1 1 +
17:11:24 <sif> nothing:
17:11:28 <nothing> sif: .
17:11:29 <sif> nothing:   stack underflow
17:11:39 <futhin> sif: 350 22 * 10 / .
17:11:40 <sif> futhin: 770
17:11:57 <I440r> i shud work on my bot
17:12:03 <nothing> that bot's yours I440r?
17:12:08 <I440r> no
17:12:10 <futhin> not here
17:12:49 --- join: Forth (~Forth@1Cust84.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
17:12:53 <I440r> THATS my bot :P
17:13:04 <I440r> written entirely in forth under isforth
17:13:17 <I440r> not that it does anything yet
17:14:10 --- quit: futhin ("gtg")
17:14:43 <nothing> http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2002/3/18/201330/044?pid=24#27
17:14:45 <nothing> great comment
17:16:33 <kc5tja> nothing: Yup.  And if you combine that very fact with source-based distribution systems (which Forth excels at), the choice of manufacturer for computer becomes increasingly unimportant.
17:16:44 <nothing> yes
17:17:37 <kc5tja> A friend fo mine purchased a MacOS X box (PowerBook G4) because it was cheaper than an equivalently loaded PC laptop.  Since it runs MacOS X, he just recompiles his desired software on that box, and things work.  :)  Thus, Macintoshes are now much more appealing to me, since I can now run "industry standard" software on them.  I have to ask myself, "What took them so long?"
17:18:00 <nothing> mac's are still generally more expensive than equivalent PCs
17:18:14 <kc5tja> Wel,l their desktop machines certainly are, yes.
17:18:40 <CrowKiller> http://asm.reversedhell.net/asm.deformed.us/documentation/shellcode/p57-0x0f.txt Great article about aplhanumeric IA32 shellcode, it plays a lot with the stack, so it MAY be interesting, if nothing better to read
17:18:40 <kc5tja> But the PowerBook G4 has a lot of built-in peripherals that, when equipped on a PC laptop, causes the PC laptop to be about $500 more expensive.
17:19:31 <kc5tja> Plus, I have to admit, the PowerBook's LCD display is the single best flatscreen display I've ever seen, PC, TV, or otherwise.
17:20:27 <kc5tja> I've often considered getting a SVGA to Apple monitor converter to use with a Macintosh flatscreen monitor for that reason.
17:21:34 <nothing> phrack has some great stuff
17:21:45 <nothing> they had a hacking forth article a while ago
17:21:46 <I440r> yes
17:22:02 <kc5tja> What's phrack?
17:22:12 <I440r> a hackers magaziene i believe
17:22:16 <CrowKiller> phrack is the greatest ezine of all time
17:22:47 <nothing> it's not l33t skr1pt kiddie crap though, well, most of it
17:22:53 <nothing> there are some interesting reads in it
17:23:14 <nothing> the good stuff is in issues 48 - 54 or so, after daemon9 took the helm
17:25:01 <kc5tja> Their Forth code is horribly malformed.
17:25:08 <kc5tja> :toupper ... ;
17:25:09 <I440r> they have FORTH code ?
17:25:14 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:25:16 <kc5tja> There should be a space between : and the word it's defining.
17:25:22 <I440r> ya
17:25:28 <kc5tja> http://www.phrack.com/show.php?p=53&a=9
17:25:33 <I440r> thats definatluy wrong heh
17:25:47 <CrowKiller> only a syntax thing
17:25:54 <CrowKiller> it doesnt matter if the code is good
17:28:58 <kc5tja> Well, it is critical.
17:29:16 <kc5tja> Anyone typing that in to their environment, only to find :FOO is undefined will wonder about the author's credibility.
17:29:32 <kc5tja> I just submitted a comment.  I hope that it gets accepted and re-published with that correction.
17:29:40 <kc5tja> It appears to be a rather nice article otherwise.
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18:06:07 <Etaoin> hi
18:08:47 <I440r> hi Etaoin
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20:10:36 <I440r> hi welcome to my humble abode :)
20:10:48 <dsmith> thanks
20:11:16 <dsmith> Like I said.  It's been a while since I used forth.
20:11:50 <I440r> i formed this channell about 2 years ago. first year was spent in here solo heh
20:11:59 <dsmith> I *knew* I wanted to use it ever since that Byte article around 1980 or so.
20:12:21 <I440r> oh. see "forth" in here ? thats an irc bot written in forth compiled ontop of my forth
20:12:52 <dsmith> So, do many people still use forth for anything?
20:13:08 <I440r> isforth almost totally replaces libc and libncurses in 30k and on my amd k6-3/550 laptop compiles almost 900k of source per second
20:13:32 <I440r> yes
20:13:36 <dsmith> It always seemded better at onwing the whole machine, to me.
20:13:42 <I440r> you ever use fed ex to ship stuff ?
20:13:50 <I440r> their entire tracking system was coded in forth
20:13:58 <dsmith> Ya, I know about those.
20:14:17 <I440r> yes it doesnt hide the system from the user
20:14:26 <I440r> or protect the user from themselves
20:15:00 <dsmith> I've actually been using scheme lately.  Reminds me a lot of Forth, but in very very different ways.
20:15:05 <I440r> nasa uses forth alot of corse
20:15:35 <dsmith> It's great for debugging hardware.
20:16:04 <I440r> isforth is still a young forth, there are alot of things i want to do with her
20:16:14 <I440r> including making her into a linux kernel module and then making it a linux kernel debugger
20:16:39 <I440r> i need an assembler extension tho
20:16:52 <I440r> you recon you could code a pentium assembler in forth??? :)(
20:17:01 <dsmith> The boot loader for FreeBSD is forth.
20:17:10 <dsmith> Intel. Ugh!
20:17:18 <I440r> im dreading having to do that myself
20:17:34 <I440r> actualy im downloading fbsd now so i can get isforth to work in it
20:17:43 <I440r> lol
20:17:53 <I440r> isforht is x86 only
20:18:21 <dsmith> Rememebr zen forth?  I ported it to 68k.
20:18:49 <I440r> yes i know of zen forth!
20:18:53 <dsmith> That's how I learned 68k asm.
20:19:02 <I440r> :)
20:19:20 <I440r> heh i learned 68k on my amiga :)
20:19:45 <dsmith> Ever use pygmy?
20:20:08 <I440r> no but i have it
20:20:39 <I440r> and its based on cmforth (chuck moore forth)
20:20:59 <dsmith> I learned to love blocks with it.
20:21:39 <dsmith> I always hated the way forth did files (in blocks), but using pygmy changed my mind.
20:21:52 <I440r> heh i never liked blocks, isforth doesnt support them but chuck mentioned a use for them in here that i hadnt thunked of
20:22:01 <I440r> so ill add block file support now
20:22:19 <I440r> isforths fast fload is due to the way it handles files
20:22:41 <I440r> i memory map the entire source. point 'tib at the start and set #tib to the file size
20:22:52 <dsmith> heh. nice
20:22:52 <I440r> the entier source file is compiled within one VERY tight loop
20:24:09 <I440r> you familiar with the name jeff fox ?
20:24:31 <dsmith> Sounds familiar.
20:24:47 <I440r> ultratechnology
20:25:02 <I440r> works very closely with chuck on the forth chips
20:25:09 <I440r> he is a regular in here now heh
20:25:27 <I440r> chuck would be too but he has some financial problems right now
20:25:46 <I440r> he said he would drop by every now and then though
20:25:46 <dsmith> Yeah.  I can't remember the name of those.
20:26:19 <I440r> F21 chips
20:26:23 <nothing> mmmm
20:26:30 <I440r> ive never looked at them myself
20:26:35 <dsmith> Yeah, thats it.
20:26:36 <nothing> have any of you guys thought of building a custom Forth-PC?
20:26:39 <I440r> you running an x86 based linux box ?
20:26:59 <dsmith> Debian.
20:27:20 <dsmith> And OpenBSD for the firewall on my cable.
20:27:34 <I440r> dsmith cool thats all i run heh i used to mirror it :)
20:27:34 <I440r> partially anyway
20:27:44 <I440r> check out isforth.clss.net
20:27:54 <I440r> you will need a recent version of nasm to build the kernel
20:28:04 <I440r> when thats built you extend...
20:28:05 <dsmith> Haven't used windows for anything for about 4 5 years or so.
20:28:16 <I440r> 117k in .15 of a second heh
20:28:22 * dsmith is reading the REAME right now
20:28:27 <I440r> me either
20:28:35 <I440r> i have it on this laptop but i rarely boot to it
20:28:39 <I440r> aha heh
20:28:52 <I440r> im an asshole when it comes to badly formated sources btw :)
20:29:06 <dsmith> Emacs!
20:29:23 <I440r> you should check out my ftp for the parody of the linux kernel coding style doc i wrote :)
20:29:32 <I440r> i use joe heh
20:29:46 <dsmith> Do you mean your code is ugly, or you can't stand ugly code?
20:30:24 <I440r> i cannot stand ugly code
20:30:31 <dsmith> Good!
20:30:35 <I440r> my code looks like a well groomed garden
20:30:49 <I440r> not some weed patch someone threw on the ground
20:31:23 <I440r> and i use alot of comments too
20:31:42 <I440r> i have a coding style/standard that i realy should write up fully
20:31:46 <dsmith> Forth shaped a lot of the way I code in C.
20:31:54 <I440r> but you can SEE it in the sources
20:32:07 <nothing> so I440r, do you think forth is the superior programming language?
20:32:16 <I440r> cool
20:32:16 <I440r> do you factor properly?
20:32:19 <dsmith> Small functions that do one thing.
20:32:24 <dsmith> I try to!
20:32:28 <I440r> thats the one thing c coders dont know how to do
20:32:49 <I440r> nothing i think its so far superior that even an absolute newbie in forht makes any expert c coder look like a complete moron
20:33:03 <I440r> dsmith thats bad c coding :P bleh heh
20:33:11 <I440r> dsmith i INLINE alot in c if i have to code it
20:33:20 <I440r> if (x = 1)
20:33:28 <I440r> {
20:33:28 <I440r>   40000000 lines of code
20:33:28 <I440r> }
20:33:37 <I440r> else
20:33:37 <I440r> P
20:33:37 <I440r> etc etc
20:33:47 <I440r> you completely lose context on the IF statement
20:33:58 <I440r> i factor ALOT
20:34:09 <dsmith> I agree completely!
20:34:43 <dsmith> I hate C code that
20:34:50 <I440r> dsmith: sept 11 realy blew embedded shit all to hell tho
20:35:04 <I440r> ive not worked since august
20:35:04 <I440r> i hate c. period
20:36:01 <dsmith> if () { if () { if () { if () soome stuff } /* and then all the elses with return codes that you can't line up to the if's */
20:36:35 <dsmith> I don't usually nest things more than 2 or 3 at the most.
20:36:41 <I440r> dsmith when i worked for siemens i was sent to charlotte nc to work on something there
20:36:55 <I440r> i encountered the worst c you could ever dream of
20:37:02 <I440r> one source file of 6 pages
20:37:11 <I440r> containing ONE funciton
20:37:19 <I440r> a single switch statement of about 6 cases
20:37:29 <I440r> each case was a switch statement of about 6 cases
20:37:40 <I440r> where each case was a switch statement of about 6 cases
20:37:40 <I440r> argh!
20:38:30 <dsmith> yep. Can't stand that stuff.
20:39:31 <I440r> me either heh
20:39:35 <I440r> the project was shitcanned in the end :P
20:39:51 <nothing> I440r: have you studied LISP or any of hte OO languages at all?
20:40:21 <I440r> object obfuscation has NO place in my toolset
20:40:37 <I440r> i refuse to have anything to do with object disorientation
20:40:37 <I440r> what so ever
20:40:51 <nothing> what's so bad about OO?
20:41:07 <I440r> you want to pay me $300 an hour and ill consider soiling my hands with it
20:41:37 <I440r> its the most fucked up pile of shit idea ive ever seen
20:41:50 <nothing> what are the specific technical qualms you have?
20:41:51 <I440r> i hate oop as much as i hate c
20:41:51 <I440r> maybe even more
20:42:21 <I440r> every fucking job i see for an embedded control apps engineer is wanting me to do it in c++ with oop chit
20:42:21 <I440r> fuck that
20:42:41 <I440r> nothing ive never seen any project worht a damn that was coded with OOP methods
20:42:41 <Etaoin> I take that as "no, I've never used LISP, and that's why I know forth is the best PL existing and cannot borrow anything from other languages to improve itself"
20:42:58 <Etaoin> "they have nothing to offer"
20:43:00 <nothing> hrm
20:43:16 <I440r> ive seen OOP take 5 years on a dual p3 in c++ with some fucked up RTOS tho
20:43:34 <I440r> i could have coded the whoe fucking lot in asm or forht on an 8051 in a month
20:44:16 <nothing> and the result would be something much harder to maintain and understand.
20:44:44 <I440r> i point you in the direction of siemens europe and the sierra project
20:44:51 <I440r> nothing BULLSHIT
20:46:03 <I440r> and after 20 years in the industry i know from where i speak
20:46:22 <I440r> OOP has nothing to offer except bloated complexity over bloated complexity
20:47:02 <I440r> in case you cant tell im slightly upset with the whole OOP idea
20:47:36 <I440r> i see too many jobs wanting OOP. jobs i know i can do in 1/1000 of the time on a processor with 1/1000 of the computing power
20:47:45 <I440r> but they want OOP eetc etc etc
20:48:16 <nothing> maybe you've just had bad experiences with certain poorly-performing C++ compilers
20:48:52 <I440r> ive been out of work since august. and there are thousands of jobs i could be doing if they didnt insist on fucking the projects up by wanting oop
20:49:25 <Etaoin> as a language, C++ sucks
20:49:31 <I440r> nothing. no. oop has NO place what so ever in ANY embedded application
20:49:31 <I440r> i dont even thing C does
20:50:12 <dsmith> Well, gotta go.  Nice meetng you.
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20:51:44 <nothing> everyone just has to jump on the "hate-evil-C++" bandwagon i guess
20:53:10 <Etaoin> when there's other languages to use, sure
20:53:41 <I440r> forth and asm
20:54:08 <I440r> i think every single coder in the world should not be allowed to code ANY language other than assembler for the first 10 years
20:54:18 <Etaoin> not what I was thinking, but then I don't do embedded stuff
20:54:30 <I440r> after 10 years of asm they should be allowed to learn forth
20:55:17 <I440r> i dont care if they are doing windows gui shit
20:55:27 <nothing> boy, i'm glad you're not the King of the World (tm)
20:55:29 <nothing> ;p
20:55:34 <I440r> they should not be allowed to code anything other than assembler for the first 10 years
20:55:34 <I440r> that should be law
20:55:40 <I440r> when im president ill enact it
20:55:55 <I440r> if you cant code asm
20:56:04 <I440r> you cant code
20:56:20 <nothing> lots of people in the past have recommended BASIC as a language for a beginning coder
20:56:51 <I440r> basic is actually a badly named language
20:56:59 <I440r> is not basic and its not easy for beginners
20:57:05 <I440r> asm is far easier
20:57:45 <nothing> i think alot of college CS professors would shudder at your suggestions
20:57:49 <Etaoin> depends on how your mind works, I guess.
20:58:11 <nothing> nowadays CS is all about high level abstraction and good, maintanable code
20:58:14 <nothing> maintainable rather
20:58:45 <nothing> using asm to code large programs is seen as a practice of the "dark age" of computers, before the proliferation of high-level languages
21:00:47 <nothing> i guess that's just the modern herd mentality though
21:02:07 <I440r> nothing. it was the practice when coders were CODERS, not little lamer script kiddies
21:02:25 <I440r> like 99.9999999999999999999999% of the coder wannabes of the world today
21:04:18 <nothing> i think there are more quality c coders than that...
21:04:57 <I440r> i dont
21:05:04 <I440r> including linus t
21:05:04 <I440r> his code is ok
21:05:23 <I440r> but his coding style sucks big time
21:05:42 <I440r> his sources are a nightmare to navigate
21:05:53 <I440r> totally unreadable
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22:23:39 <Serg_penguin> hi ;)
22:26:04 <I440r> hi
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22:34:33 <I440r> hi tom
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.06.06