00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.06.02 01:32:54 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:12:12 --- join: mur` (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 06:12:29 --- nick: mur` -> mur 06:42:07 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@adsl-66-101.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 06:42:25 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 07:42:57 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:42:57 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 07:43:57 wow, bot is the most active person on this channel! :D 07:44:08 :-) 07:47:55 radioactive... 07:53:16 3am :/ 07:53:19 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapSleep 07:58:10 does any1 have any experience w enth/flux? 09:10:02 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.4) joined #forth 09:10:28 g'day 09:10:38 Good afternoon. 09:11:10 ah. the_rob 09:11:17 well done 09:11:24 Uhmm.. thanks. 09:11:31 * rob_ert . o O (What did I do?) 09:11:39 plural you 09:11:45 swedish football team 09:11:51 draw against england 09:11:54 I see. 09:12:01 Congratulations yourself. 09:12:07 8-0 against Saudi Arabia. 09:12:27 yaeh, sent them back to the desert 09:12:59 :) 09:13:05 They'll bomb you. 09:13:48 be glad germany doesn't sit in the same pool as sweden :) 09:14:49 --- quit: SoapSleep (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:30:04 cta 09:30:17 cya 09:30:21 miht return next week 09:30:36 bye jukka 09:37:03 --- quit: mur ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.") 09:38:09 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:38:11 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@adsl-66-101.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 09:40:45 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 10:27:42 --- nick: Speuler -> PhoodPhrenzy 11:19:48 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 11:19:57 hi 11:20:54 hi 11:25:03 so anybody here got ideas fot the 32bits forth vm? 11:26:24 ill try to put mine into a html page soon 11:28:06 no 11:34:43 --- quit: PhoodPhrenzy (Remote closed the connection) 12:04:25 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 12:05:39 hi 12:07:27 hi 12:11:04 hi 12:13:58 is there any enth expert here? 12:14:22 i can even browse its sources :( 12:14:35 coz they r in blocks 12:19:35 --- quit: Fare ("31453") 12:20:37 dont know sorry 12:24:30 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 12:24:45 anybody alive? 12:24:58 hey crowkiller 12:25:33 --- part: futhin left #forth 12:25:37 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 12:25:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 12:25:43 --- topic: set to 'Actual Project: To design the easiest, simplest and mightiest 32bit Virtual Foth Machine for x86/ARMthumb/PowerPC possible -- CrowKiller' by futhin 12:28:16 yes? 12:28:23 howdy 12:28:37 i forget how to use create.. 12:28:39 i'm doing something like 12:28:39 hello futhin 12:28:43 i never used it 12:28:48 create cartesian 0 , 0 , 0 , 12:28:55 but it's wrong or something 12:28:58 not even sure of what is does 12:29:09 yeah, i'll go find a tutorial 12:29:51 btw thanks for letting the topic hanging up there 12:30:11 I hope it might inspire people doing something actually useful lol 12:30:25 yeah 12:33:13 this is the most recent paper 12:33:14 hm, you really should learn more forth if you don't know about CREATE heh 12:33:25 about chuck moore c18 core 12:33:27 http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/forth/euro/ef01/moore01a.pdf 12:34:30 thats exactly what everybody's telling me when I share my ignorance about create/does 12:35:10 yeah 12:39:08 its a little more complicated than its previous design embodiement 12:40:07 theres 18 bits in a word, and there 4 5bits instructions in each, the last one must thus end with two zeroes to be put there or else its a nop 12:40:20 it's times like these i wish i had starting forth or thinking forth on hand 12:41:23 forth is simple and easy, dont bother yourlsef using books! 12:41:38 its not forth like to not be able to do something with it lol 12:41:52 here what i tried to explain 12:41:53 The c18 has 192 words of 18-bit memory. RAM addresses are 0-7f; ROM are 80-bf. Instructions are 5 bits long. There 12:41:53 are 4 slots for instructions in each word. From left to right: S0, S1 and S2 are 5 bits; S3 is 3 bits and has 2 low-order zeros 12:41:53 appended. The most common instructions end in 00. 12:42:36 forth is simple and easy, but first we must know how to use CREATE , C, and other words 12:42:40 the nop instruction is 11100 12:43:00 hmmm i dont need them myself when i think in forth 12:43:02 i really loved MUF.. great help system, really easy to learn the language and start coding immediately 12:43:03 hi 12:43:05 futhin: 12:43:08 onetom!!!! :D 12:43:10 and i dont know about the C word 12:43:13 :) 12:43:21 crowkiller: you can't code any forth :P 12:43:41 the C, (c and comma) word 12:44:11 i don't need create to code in forth 12:44:14 onetom: i'm trying to create a "variable" with three bytes in it 12:44:16 onetom: 12:44:27 CREATE CARTESIAN 0 , 0 , 0 , 12:44:32 c, allocate bytes 12:44:35 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:44:37 , allocate cells 12:44:43 thats it 12:45:05 a cell is fine for now 12:45:12 CREATE CARTESIAN 0 , 0 , 0 , 12:45:23 CARTESIAN 1+ 234 ! 12:45:25 gforth: create x $12345678 , x c@ . x 1+ c@ . 12:45:28 onetom: 120 86 12:45:32 will that store to the second cell ? 12:45:35 gforth: hex create x $12345678 , x c@ . x 1+ c@ . 12:45:39 onetom: 78 56 12:46:03 ! ( data address -- ) 12:46:19 implementing such basic data structure is really easy 12:46:32 do a cartesian word 12:46:34 gforth: create cartesian 0 c, 0 c, 0 c, cartesian 1+ 234 ! cartesian 1+ @ 12:46:38 futhin: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 12:46:38 futhin: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Invalid memory address 12:46:38 futhin: create cartesian 0 c, 0 c, 0 c, cartesian 1+ 234 ! cartesian 1+ @ 12:46:38 futhin: ^ 12:46:38 futhin: Backtrace: 12:46:39 :cartesian 3* 12:46:45 its ugly 12:46:57 lol 12:47:00 becasue off odd bondaries, 12:47:10 there's no odd boundaries 12:47:11 you could use 12:47:19 :cartesian 4 * 12:47:32 and number your cartesian coordinates 12:47:40 or use the 4 byte for anything you like 12:47:45 dont need the create does 12:47:50 or anything fancy 12:48:26 crowkiller: you make no sense 12:48:46 you don't appear to know much forth.. 12:48:53 especially if you make the mistake of typing 12:48:54 maybe the cartesian word use a variable and would be defined like this: :cartesian 4 * baseaddressofmemoryarea + 12:48:55 :cartesian 12:49:06 the ":" is a WORD ! 12:49:12 i know 12:49:17 cartesian must be defined as a word 12:49:26 all these things are words: : ! . , C, 12:49:37 dont you know the block word?? 12:49:46 :block 1024 * 12:49:56 so if you say "24 block" 12:50:01 you have to have a space between the : and the word you are defining 12:50:05 : cartesian 12:50:05 then you get to the 24th block 12:50:09 not :cartesian 12:50:20 doesnt matter at all you get the point 12:50:22 ;ppp 12:51:11 first you CREATE the CARTESIAN 12:51:14 then you create a structure 12:51:19 that allows you to type 12:51:29 0 COORD 12:51:30 the thing is that you dont need a structure 12:51:32 and it returns that coord 12:51:36 or 24 COORD 12:51:37 or whatever 12:51:53 you said 24 BLOCK 12:52:07 i still do that AFTER i create the frigging variable 12:52:10 anyways gtg 12:52:11 --- quit: futhin ("gtg") 12:52:15 lol 12:52:26 he doesnt do assembler 12:52:30 its so evident lol 14:07:56 --- join: geakazoid (JB@adsl-63-202-177-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 14:13:39 --- join: sbk_ (~500@dsl-65-184-108-105.telocity.com) joined #forth 14:18:38 --- quit: sbk_ ("Leaving") 14:18:46 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on) 14:44:54 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-8-74.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 14:47:04 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 14:48:15 crowkiller: i know the basics of assembler and i'm familiar with the paradigm 14:48:21 that is why i took so easily to forth 14:48:55 you completely misunderstand me i think 14:49:29 you don't understand what CREATE is.. 14:49:42 CREATE is what VARIABLE uses 14:49:54 : VARIABLE CREATE, ALLOT ; 14:49:57 or something like that 14:50:11 now i basically want a variable with 3 cells 14:50:27 because i'm using cartesian coordinates.. x, y, z 14:50:41 i want a cartesian "variable" 14:50:51 and when i want to find what x is 14:50:57 i type: 14:51:06 0 coord 14:51:09 or if i want to find y 14:51:12 i type 1 coord 14:51:16 and coord is defined as: 14:51:48 : coord 2* cartesian + @ ; 14:51:55 or something like that 14:52:39 i could even do this: 14:52:44 : x 0 ; 14:52:49 : y 0 ; : z 0 ; 14:52:53 and then 14:52:55 x coord 14:52:56 y coord 14:52:57 etc 14:53:35 you used the BLOCK example 14:53:43 24 BLOCK returns the 24th block 14:54:20 but you don't understand that there is an address stored in HERE or some other variable that BLOCK accesses 14:54:45 : BLOCK 1024 * HERE ! ; or something like that 14:54:52 hi 14:54:52 when i talk about 14:55:09 CREATE CARTESIAN 0 , 0 , 0 , i'm trying to create a variable with three cell spaces 14:55:23 onetom: hello 14:55:25 are you busy? 14:55:28 what are you up to? 14:56:09 no, not really 14:56:29 i was backreading the log 14:56:32 ahh 14:56:52 have u solved the problem finally? 14:56:58 can you tell me if "CREATE CARTESIAN 0 , 0 , 0 ," looks right to you? 14:57:01 shall i tell the solution? 14:57:04 no i was away, just got back 14:57:20 i want to store numbers to each cell 14:57:21 its okay 14:57:26 and fetch those numbers 14:57:34 in the CARTESIAN variable 14:57:53 tho its only good 4 creating initialized adat structures 14:58:04 look: 14:58:04 i tried 14:58:13 CREATE CARTESIAN 1 , 2 , 3 , 14:58:15 and then i tried 14:58:23 CARTESIAN @ 14:58:25 and i get a 0 14:58:26 not a 1 14:58:28 what gives? 14:58:34 i'm forgetting something here 14:58:58 eh 14:59:00 it works now 14:59:01 weird 14:59:25 lol 14:59:45 it works cool 15:00:39 gforth: create P1 1 , 11 , 111 : x ; : y cell+ ; : z cell+ cell+ ; : .p dup x @ . dup y @ . z @ . ; P1 .p 222 P1 z ! P1 .p 15:00:42 onetom: 1 11 1075038348 1 11 222 15:01:20 gforth: create P1 1 , 11 , 111 , : x ; : y cell+ ; : z cell+ cell+ ; : .p dup x @ . dup y @ . z @ . ; P1 .p 222 P1 z ! P1 .p 15:01:23 onetom: 1 11 111 1 11 222 15:01:35 it's so ugly sending the code that way 15:01:41 why? 15:01:44 it's not as readable when it's all on one line 15:01:57 what else can i do? :) 15:01:59 it would be nice if you could send it to gforth in multiple lines 15:02:02 or 15:02:04 here's an idea 15:02:15 you type gforth: begin 15:02:21 and then everything you type after that 15:02:26 gets read by gforth 15:02:28 then you type end 15:02:30 or something like that 15:02:51 sure, but it requires user handling :/ 15:03:00 how so? 15:03:21 gforth: readallmyforthcode henceforth 15:03:24 futhin: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 15:03:25 futhin: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 15:03:25 futhin: readallmyforthcode henceforth 15:03:25 futhin: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 15:03:25 futhin: Backtrace: 15:03:25 gforth: begin 15:03:27 create blah 0 , 15:03:34 gforth.. begin 15:03:40 20 blah ! 15:03:46 blah @ 15:03:50 gforth: i'mdone 15:03:54 futhin: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 15:03:54 futhin: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 15:03:54 futhin: i'mdone 15:03:54 futhin: ^^^^^^^ 15:03:54 futhin: Backtrace: 15:03:58 :) 15:04:06 yes 15:04:10 you should handle separate users 15:04:23 it would be nice 15:04:25 anyways 15:04:30 i know :) 15:04:55 but i dont have & absolutely not in the mood :( 15:05:08 :( 15:05:19 not in the mood to mess with forth these days? :( 15:05:23 im really pissed off, but uve been told.. 15:05:28 yeah 15:05:32 no, no, no.. 15:05:34 sucks 15:05:37 futhin: thats fine with me do what you want, but my point is i dont need create/does and the block word only return the block start address in memory, nothing else, so dont need here or other things 15:05:49 iwas messing w enth all this day, eg 15:06:26 but not in the mood 4 doing other than what is the most interesting 15:06:59 crowkiller: uh ??? let me see your code for handling cartesian coordinates.. for remembering what the current caretesian coordinate is 15:07:07 crowkiller: it's gotta be stored somewhere 15:07:37 crowkiller: i use CREATE to make the variable that stores the cartesian coordinates 15:07:40 there's no way out of it 15:07:46 if there is, enlighten me 15:07:50 enth is pretty exciting, clean, simple, short & functional anyway 15:08:17 onetom: i'm working on my forth mud right now 15:08:42 i440r motivated me to just code a simple mud and throw that away and start from scratch 15:08:56 so that i don't get paralyzed 15:09:00 tho, its still a bit infelxible (cant change screen resolution, not even on the fly, but @ compile time either) 15:09:35 but it also disappointed me 1 some extent, coz 15:09:49 it requires windows 2 be recompiled :( 15:10:12 it wasnt a lucky & productive day 4 me :( 15:10:35 hmmm futhin I said that I cant use create/does and to solve a problem I dont need to bother solving other problems such as using constructs I dont understand fully 15:10:49 but ioor is right, code up 1 then throw it away 15:11:01 to solve your problem hmm i dont know 15:11:08 maybe you want signed coordinates 15:11:09 b minimalistic & dare 2 make ugly code 4 the 1st time 15:11:09 ?? 15:11:16 it could help a lot :) 15:11:24 i dont at all what the specs are so i cant solve this its up to you ;p 15:11:48 i dont know at all what the specs are so I can't solve this, its up to you ;p 15:11:51 crowkiller: using cartesian coordinates for simulating a virtual world 15:12:16 you know what a mud is right? 15:12:29 a multiplayer game 15:12:29 multi-user dimension? text-based online multiplayer game 15:12:54 the game i played that look the most like this is tradewars 2002 15:13:11 tradewars 2002 was fun 15:13:28 i was into a project at asynchrony to make a clone 15:13:34 but guy only coded it in vb 15:13:36 lol 15:13:45 i plan on implementing an economic system in the mud 15:13:48 damn i dont have vb so screw him ;p 15:13:52 i think it'll be really cool ;) 15:14:23 maybe you dont need the coordinates in the format you actually wanted them to be 15:14:32 look carefully at what you want 15:14:47 naw, code first, scratch it, and then i'll know what i need 15:15:34 coding first is not the best way, you have to think of the most efficient implementation possible, at the lowest level possible 15:15:36 then code 15:15:37 futhin: did u write any specifications about what do u expect from your program 2 do? 15:16:02 some 15:16:26 futhin: im good @ prototyping, remember? ;) i could help u, if ud like 2 15:16:59 crowkiller: doesn't sound like you've coded much 15:17:03 brb 15:17:13 be back in 20 mins 15:17:18 no I didnt 15:17:29 eg, enlist the 3d vector operations u think u gonna need 15:17:30 brb 15:18:13 futhin: you should develop a good virtual machine to start with, so that your code could run on xbox, pc, gba or any 32 bit platform 15:24:50 crowkiller: first i must master forth 15:25:22 no need, because you think forth has create does 15:25:25 and you might want to do that too 15:25:28 this forth dont need to be masterized 15:25:40 you only need to know about stacks 15:25:45 yeah sure 15:25:49 the basic philosophy of forth 15:25:50 and definitions 15:25:53 and thats all 15:26:06 if youw ant speed 15:26:12 design your own speedy forth 15:26:25 if you want something compact design you own compact forth 15:26:36 CREATE is the word used to add stuff to the dictionary, it's a pretty basic word 15:26:47 unless you want a forth with no dictionary 15:27:01 onetom: you know uml? 15:27:06 do you know aha? 15:27:28 yes i read part of jeff fox's aha page awhile ago 15:27:33 what a dictionary is to you? 15:28:04 the most efficient way of doing a dictionary is using an array, or maybe a hardware stack dedicated to this 15:28:18 containing only adresses in memory where the word begin 15:28:21 so in your source 15:28:25 you write 15:28:38 let say 10 or 15 definitions 15:28:45 and after write 15:28:57 word1, word5, word2 word 3 word 2 15:29:21 your words in the source are only indexes into the Code Field Address table 15:29:24 so bang 15:29:28 no more dictionary 15:29:33 unless you want one at edit time 15:30:11 so you know, to master forth you only have to factor things out of the over all picture, its that easy 15:30:33 hmmm 15:30:36 so now you see why i dont need create/does 15:31:39 i'd be interested in seeing your code, if you stay true to that philosophy you could create some amazing code 15:31:44 thats why an efficient virtual machine design is important, because its the fondation of forth and if the vm is inneficient then the system is inneficient 15:32:07 i posted some code to the colorforth mailing list 15:32:15 i could cut and paste it here 15:32:24 sure please do 15:32:58 i will cut and paste all the reply 15:33:13 since the archives arent up to date 15:33:20 I also forgot to underline the fact that this is the page of 15:33:20 Mark Slicker and its all been discussed already on this list, 15:33:20 just search the (not up to date) archives at 15:33:20 http://www.strangegizmo.com/forth/ColorForth/index.html 15:33:20 And for the new stuff, I thought about a simpler IF construct, 15:33:21 that I use when im coding for AVRs: there's some asm 15:33:23 instructions on those chips that i.e. "skip the following instruction 15:33:25 if the Z flag is set". in asm its not that powerful because it skips 15:33:27 only a one memory cell instruction, like short jumps. but in forth, 15:33:29 if the if could skip only the following word if the flag is true it would 15:33:31 make the code much more clean and reusable. Example from a 15:33:33 aha like system i would like to implement coded from thin air but 15:33:35 embodies the general concepts of a 8 bit aha system: 15:33:37 Basic info about tokens to understand the code below: 15:33:43 1- Word Token 15:33:45 0|1111111 min:0 max:127 Range:127 15:33:47 2- Function Token 15:33:49 10|111111 min:128 max:191 Range:63 15:33:51 3- New Word Token 15:33:53 1100|1111 min:192 max:207 Range:15 15:33:55 4- Comment Token 15:33:57 1101|1111 min:208 max:223 Range:15 15:33:57 --- quit: CrowKiller (Excess Flood) 15:34:07 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:34:13 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 15:34:15 lol 15:34:19 um 15:34:32 what last line did you see? 15:34:32 dcc it to me? 15:34:50 hmm ok 15:36:10 i hope this msg will spark a finally interesting discussion thread 15:36:35 because I'm tired of seeing this community doing plain nothing 15:36:40 same here 15:36:51 um, so there's code in the reply.txt? 15:37:01 a little 15:37:06 i coded it from thin air 15:37:12 but you can decipher it im sure 15:37:37 i don't see any forth code :P 15:38:21 i'm a lazy reader 15:38:21 haaaaa at the bottom 15:38:38 in that case why did you asked me for the entire text 15:38:40 i'm insulted by people who can't write information in easily accessible ways 15:38:56 no don't worry 15:38:59 i'll read it 15:39:02 just have to concentrate a little 15:40:06 i just have a preference for stuff that just flows over my mind, caresses my brain, makes love to my pink convoluted matter, where the logic flows and is open, where minimum thinking needs to be done 15:40:22 i think that information accessibility should be a science 15:40:38 and everyone should learn to present their information in the most accessible ways 15:40:39 do you understand how my if work? 15:40:52 so that everyone can absorb the information and knowledge like sponges 15:41:05 what does AVR stand for again? 15:41:09 it add the corresponding flag to the PC, so it can add 0 or 1; skip 0 or 1 word 15:41:22 www.atmel.com, look into the microcontrollers 15:41:35 8bit microcontrollers 15:41:44