00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.30
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04:32:41 <rob_ert> Hi Fare.
04:32:46 <Fare> lo, rob
05:07:44 <mur`> hmpph
05:08:10 <rob_ert> ?
05:11:26 --- join: St3pan (~stepan@p50847FC4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
05:11:50 <rob_ert> :)
05:12:09 <rob_ert> Be welcomed, St3pan.
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05:33:13 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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05:53:19 --- nick: Fare -> FareAwayLunch
06:36:00 --- nick: FareAwayLunch -> Fare
06:37:02 <rob_ert> Welcome back.
06:37:25 <Fare> K
06:37:55 <rob_ert> Good you accepted that fact.
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07:29:40 --- nick: St3pan -> Stepan
07:30:02 <Stepan> :)
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07:35:38 <rob_ert> Hi cleverdra.
08:04:05 <cleverdra> hi rob_ert
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08:05:03 <rob_ert> Hi Etaoin.
08:05:22 <Etaoin> rob_ert: hello
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10:05:39 <I440r> brb
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10:10:08 <rob_ert> Hey ho :)
10:23:04 <I440r> back
10:23:16 <I440r> you done that sockets code yet ??? :)
11:11:19 <rob_ert> Bah ;9
11:11:20 <rob_ert> No.
11:18:47 <I440r> bleh
11:18:55 <I440r> lazy :P
11:19:11 <rob_ert> Of course!
11:19:16 * rob_ert installs MS-DOS 5.0
11:25:46 <I440r> lol
11:26:19 <rob_ert> FreeDOS is buggy, and MS-DOS is primitive.
11:26:27 * rob_ert combines both of them :)
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11:35:08 <rob_ert> Hey kc5tja :)
11:35:30 <kc5tja> re
11:35:45 <kc5tja> I haven't worked much on my Forth since I've been really busy lately.
11:35:56 <kc5tja> But hopefully I'll have some more time this coming set of weeks.
11:36:03 <rob_ert> :)
11:36:21 <kc5tja> One nice thing, though, is that my sensei has plans of using me for front-of-the-class demonstrations in aikido more often.
11:37:20 <kc5tja> That's a two-fold honor.  Senseis don't do that unless your ukemi is top notch, and second, I get that much more extra training.
11:37:29 <kc5tja> So I'm really feeling good right now.
11:37:42 <kc5tja> Plus the fact that I completed that project yesterday, and I'm really quite happy.
11:38:24 <rob_ert> Aikido?
11:38:27 <rob_ert> What is that?
11:41:37 <kc5tja> http://www.aikidofaq.com
11:41:57 * rob_ert is too lazy to read :) I'll just assume it's a sport from the east side of the world.
11:42:12 <kc5tja> Aikido is not s aport; it is, however, a martial art.
11:43:10 <kc5tja> "Aikido is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba  (often referred to by his title 'O Sensei' or 'Great Teacher'). On a purely physical level it is an art involving some throws and joint locks that are derived from Jujitsu and some throws and other techniques derived from Kenjutsu. Aikido focuses not on punching or kicking opponents, but rather on using their own energy to gain control of them or to throw them away from you. It is not a static art,
11:43:24 <kc5tja> ...emphasis on motion and the dynamics of movement."
11:44:53 * rob_ert defines sport as "any real life thing".
11:45:11 * davidw 's favorite sport is cycling
11:45:16 * kc5tja defines sport as any competitive endeavor with the clear intent of superiority in a contest.
11:46:21 <kc5tja> Aikido is not competitive in the same sense as other martial arts.
11:46:35 <kc5tja> We don't fight to lambaste our opponents/partners.
11:46:47 <kc5tja> That's foolish -- you'll quickly end up with no more students to practice with if you do that.
11:47:00 <kc5tja> Consider the high turn-over rate in Tae Kwon Do.
11:47:05 <I440r> kc5 thats one of the things i liked abou tit
11:47:07 <I440r> about it
11:47:12 <I440r> its not a "sport"
11:47:18 <I440r> its a martial art
11:47:36 <I440r> "i win"  <-- bleh who gives a **%*^
11:47:42 <kc5tja> Exactly.
11:47:47 <I440r> its not about being better than everyone else
11:47:54 <I440r> its about making yourself to be the best YOU can be
11:48:08 <I440r> thers always someone better than you are. trying to be better than him is pointless
11:48:09 <kc5tja> It also makes you question, "What does it mean to 'win'?"
11:48:20 <davidw> I440r: that sounds like, to quote you "liberal faggy stuff"
11:48:21 <I440r> being better than yourself is harder
11:48:28 <kc5tja> If I get into a brawl, the opponent may still "win" -- but I'll likely have a lot less injuries than he will.
11:48:34 <kc5tja> So who really won?  ;D
11:49:34 <rob_ert> davidw: Heh... :)
11:49:59 <davidw> kc5tja: no disrespect of aikido intended, whatsoever, but just a bit for I440r
11:50:32 <kc5tja> davidw: No; the more people who think it's "liberal faggy stuff" the better, actually.
11:50:53 <kc5tja> It's not good strategy to let your opponent know your arsenal.  :)
11:51:05 <I440r> davidw: not at all.
11:51:20 <I440r> kc5 :)
11:51:55 <kc5tja> Seriously, aikido works best when you apply a really loose, almost dance-like move to the opponent.  It looks like you're playing with him, and indeed, you are.
11:52:45 <kc5tja> But having suffered a major neck injury because of a technique applied too quickly for my abilities, I can say that aikido is anything but liberal faggy.  :)
11:53:43 <davidw> kc5tja: like I said, I'm just kidding.  I used to do martial arts, although not seriously, and I think it's a great thing
11:54:31 <kc5tja> davidw: I wasn't arguing; just making an observation.
11:55:12 <kc5tja> I love martial arts in general.  I used to go to the gym, and that really didn't help.
11:55:37 <kc5tja> When I started aikido, my health improved 100-fold, I'm happier now, and I'm more flexible and supple than I've ever been.
11:56:29 <davidw> I think gyms are more or less like gerbil wheels
11:56:29 <davidw> for humans
11:57:20 <kc5tja> That's how I felt, pretty much.  But there are people who swear by them.  I don't like the lack of interaction, having to constantly wipe someone else's sweat off the seats, and the odor is unbelievable, even in well ventilated shops.
11:58:20 <I440r> sounds unhealty for someplace reported to be just the opposite :P
11:59:37 <kc5tja> Every gym I've ever been to is just nasty.
12:28:15 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-meeting
12:28:21 <kc-meeting> Be back in about an hour, I hope.
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12:28:58 <I440r> oooh - hope that meeting is an "your fired" meeting heh
12:29:00 <I440r> hi hobart
12:29:09 <I440r> you a forth coder ?
12:29:13 <Hobart> Afternoon.
12:29:28 <Hobart> Not really, just a fan.
12:29:33 <I440r> close ennuff :)
12:29:36 <Hobart> Last used QS-FORTH on Atari.
12:29:47 <I440r> what OS do  you run ?
12:30:08 <I440r> windows :P
12:30:12 <Hobart> XP / 2Ksvr / RH7.3.  Sometimes Open / Free BSD when I have the time.
12:30:19 <I440r> oooh
12:30:20 <I440r> cool
12:30:27 <I440r> i need someone to do a FBSD port of my forth :)
12:30:47 <Hobart> I recommend the song "Every OS Sucks" by 3 dead trolls in a baggie if you haven't heard it.
12:30:49 <I440r> i run debian myself, abandoned redhat after 6.2
12:30:57 <I440r> lol
12:31:06 <I440r> linux sucks less than windows
12:31:15 <Hobart> Depends what for.
12:31:15 <I440r> i refuse to enter the fbsd/linux arguement heh
12:31:20 <I440r> they suck equally....
12:31:28 <I440r> windows duesnt suck at crashing!!! :)
12:31:32 <I440r> its very good at that heheh
12:31:33 <I440r> lol
12:31:54 <Hobart> Dunno, haven't had my desktop have major issues since dumping 95 for NT4 4+yrs ago.
12:31:55 <I440r> neway, do you code asm by any chance?
12:32:12 <Hobart> Last I coded asm was in 68k on the Atari, haven't done x86.
12:32:16 <I440r> nt doesnt crash as much but its still not perfect
12:32:31 <I440r> linux is far superior to NT in every respect
12:32:59 <Hobart> That's an awful blanket statement. ;)
12:33:01 <I440r> i ran NT for about a year before permanantly removing it and erasing the CD
12:33:06 <davidw> Hobart: he's good at those
12:33:10 <I440r> hobart im famous for them heh
12:33:11 <davidw> an expert, I dare say
12:33:47 <Hobart> I440r -> I'll race you side by side in deploying an email solution for a workgroup of 20 people, you get Linux, I get ProLiants w/ Smartstart and Exhcange 2k, ok?  Ready, go!
12:33:49 <Hobart> ;) ;)
12:34:01 <Hobart> We'll measure TCO in a week.
12:34:15 <Hobart> http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1241/1241156.html to those who haven't heard the song.
12:34:23 <I440r> hobart ill race you setting up a web server for 500000 accounts
12:34:25 <I440r> froom scratch
12:34:34 <I440r> no OS installed to start with
12:34:38 <Hobart> No, I don't need to do that.  I need to set up a working groupware solution for my office.
12:34:42 <davidw> Hobart: I would do: apt-get install postfix
12:34:45 <Hobart> Yes, no OS to start with.
12:35:08 <davidw> ah, a 'groupware solution', not an email server
12:35:13 <I440r> hobart sendmaill is nice if you can read gobbldegook heh
12:35:17 * davidw gets hung up on the 'solution' thing
12:35:37 <I440r> what is groupware
12:35:59 <Hobart> i440r -> Sendmail is the single production use of the entire M4 macro language which had to be invented to handle it's godawful COBOL-ish .cf behemoth files which break between subversions.
12:36:16 <davidw> it enables a collaborative spirit to further the corporate goals, by helping develop an inclusive solution to group comunictation with advanced technology
12:36:25 <Hobart> Sure, it's powerful.  So's X.  but when was the last time you REALLY needed to hook a widget to tweak the transparency of the drop-shadow of a mouse cursor?  :)
12:36:45 <I440r> hobart lol - i like the quote... "your not a real unix sys-admin until you have set up sendmail at least once and NOBODY in their right mind would ever want to do it twice"
12:37:30 <I440r> hobart unix people LOVE overkill
12:37:37 <Hobart> I440r -> Heh.  I just drop a verrrrrry basic Qmail instance between Exchange and the real world for both incoming and outgoing, and call it good.  :)
12:37:58 <Hobart> Unfortunately, few people can code to the quality of DJB, and DJB himself has all the social skills of, oh, say, theo.
12:38:25 <I440r> who is djb ?
12:38:31 <Hobart> djb -> http://cr.yp.to/
12:38:47 <Hobart> Excellent software author, major cryptography freedom fighter, university professor, major childish asshole.
12:39:41 <I440r> lol
12:39:55 <I440r> i sometimes qualify as childish asshole too :)
12:39:59 <I440r> so i can relate to him :)
12:40:38 <I440r> im very critical of other peoples code
12:40:46 <I440r> because im critical to the same degree with mine
12:40:59 <I440r> and it seems to me that very few other people are
12:41:11 <Hobart> "Very few" is a relative term.
12:41:24 <Hobart> There's probably at least 500,000 people who are really good.
12:41:30 <I440r> not realy
12:41:38 <I440r> and 2498562984379823479823659823569382798237698724 think they can
12:41:39 <Hobart> Nuclear missiles, assembly line robot controls, etc.
12:42:09 <I440r> so "very few" is an under-statement
12:42:14 <Hobart> Well, by and large, they CAN, good enough.  :)  You or I can build a shed to keep the rain off our heads if we need to, but I don't think either of us would take a home on the 50th floor of a skyscraper we designed single-handed.
12:42:26 <I440r> look at all the very badly written junk C code you can grab off the net
12:42:29 <Hobart> Mostly, the demand is there for sheds to keep the rain off people's heads. :  )
12:42:57 <Hobart> Well, yes, the subset of good programmers who give away their stuff is smaller than the subset of mediocre ones who do.  :)
12:43:00 <I440r> good enough till we get a little wind
12:43:07 <I440r> then the shed comes crashing down on our heads
12:43:13 <Hobart> right.
12:43:40 <Hobart> What's an I440R?  An Intel chipset?
12:43:49 <I440r> Ibanez 440 radius :)
12:43:53 <I440r> my guitar heh
12:43:53 <Hobart> Guitar?
12:43:55 <Hobart> gotcha.
12:44:05 <I440r> sane guitar joe satriani uses
12:44:06 <Hobart> My guitar has "NO NAME GEETAR" written on the neck.
12:44:12 <Hobart> And is horribly out of tune.
12:44:19 <I440r> not touched mine in over a year
12:44:20 <Hobart> But as I cannot play it, that doesn't affect much. :)
12:44:25 <I440r> lol
12:44:38 <I440r> i can butcher paganini's capriece #24 :)
12:44:50 <I440r> plus a few other songs heh
12:45:24 <davidw> dammit, plane tickets cost a crapload
12:45:53 <I440r> davidw i will never again set foot on a aircraft till the general public is allowed to CARRY
12:46:05 <davidw> carry what?
12:46:18 <I440r> i dont go anywhere near an aircraft without my kimber 1911 with frangible ammo
12:46:34 <I440r> frangible ammo will hurt YOU but not the aircraft
12:47:01 <davidw> I just have to say it - you are a looney tune
12:47:07 <I440r> the right of the people to keep......
12:47:28 <davidw> I don't want to fly on planes with a militia
12:47:32 <I440r> davidw make all guns illegal and the only people you stop from carrying one are LAW abiding citizens
12:47:46 <davidw> what's that got to do with planes?
12:48:26 <Hobart> davidw -> I purchased my last few tickets off hotwire.com - they require your email address, but beat all the other search engines I tried
12:48:28 <I440r> if a bad guy has any sort of weapon at all and i am defenseless.....
12:49:02 * Hobart leaves his gun locked properly in his gun safe. :P
12:49:23 <Hobart> Fly on El Al, or get an air marshall to have the seat next to you. ;)
12:49:33 <Hobart> now a PARACHUTE, that might be useful :D  (jk)
12:49:51 <I440r> hobart 200 air martials for 28495697824697824982347682 flights per hour.... something doesnt add up
12:50:10 <I440r> most gun toting redneck cowboys are NOT redneck cowboys
12:50:40 <I440r> most of the people who carry are highly educated, right thinking people
12:50:56 <I440r> when your government cannot trust YOU its time to change your government
12:50:58 <I440r> period
12:51:10 <I440r> thru legal means that is heh
12:51:11 <I440r> lol
12:53:58 <davidw> travelocity is on crack
12:54:08 <davidw> I don't understand why people would use their service
12:54:14 <Hobart> davidw -> (see above)  try hotwire perhaps  : )
12:54:24 <davidw> trying
12:55:27 <davidw> fuckers... all flights must originate from within the US
12:57:25 <I440r> davidw i tried to buy my sister a flight from athens greece to usa via a web based thingie
12:57:27 <I440r> they wont do it
12:57:33 <I440r> only if it STARTS in the us
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12:58:13 <davidw> travelocity seems to let you, but their prices are absurd
12:58:20 <davidw> more than double what the flights cost
12:58:34 <Hobart> davidw -> Yuck, I have never tried international flights :(
12:58:48 <Hobart> davidw -> However I have heard that the actual airlines websites also have good deals
12:58:59 <davidw> probably a good idea as well
12:59:23 <mur`> hee
13:09:30 <I440r> im bored :P
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13:35:15 <Speuler> g'day
13:35:22 <rob_ert> Hoi :D
13:35:42 <Speuler> ah, the_rob
13:36:05 <Speuler> 'm back in munich now
13:36:20 <rob_ert> :)
13:37:01 <Speuler> heard about the fire in sweden ?
13:37:12 <Speuler> some companies seriously affected
13:37:40 <I440r> yoy set it ??? :)
13:37:48 <I440r> you i mean heh
13:37:51 <Speuler> don't tell anybody :)
13:37:54 <rob_ert> Speuler: Yeah...
13:38:05 <rob_ert> And it burnt there last year, heh...
13:38:24 <rob_ert> Fucking idiots... btw, my mother works for the company that handles the power lines here :)
13:38:37 <rob_ert> I'm in the north-east suburbs of Stockholm.
13:38:37 <Speuler> hope she got an insurance
13:38:45 <rob_ert> The north-west part is without power.
13:39:09 <Speuler> still ?
13:39:16 <rob_ert> Yeah
13:39:21 <Speuler> thought the fire was yesterday
13:39:23 <rob_ert> Until late Saturday.
13:39:39 <rob_ert> They expect it to take another 2 days to fix a temporary solution
13:39:46 <Speuler> shit
13:39:53 <Speuler> sounds serious indeed
13:40:12 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
13:40:12 <rob_ert> Yes.
13:40:14 <rob_ert> Hi futhin.
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13:41:45 <CrowKiller> hi
13:41:46 <Speuler> hi the_futh
13:42:44 <I440r> fu!!
13:43:05 <futhin> heh, hello all
13:43:52 <futhin> i440r: don't worry, i've been thinking about the help system for isforth, i'll do some work on it eventually :P
13:44:02 <I440r> lol
13:44:09 <I440r> it needs it NOW !!! lol
13:44:21 <I440r> thers alot of stuff that i know about the compiler that nobody else does
13:44:43 <I440r> i need to write it all down
13:44:47 <futhin> i'll do up a basic help system
13:44:56 <futhin> and then you can extend it, etc
13:45:09 <rob_ert> I440r: Fast, fast! Write it down before you die! :D
13:45:09 <I440r> k
13:45:23 <I440r> lol
13:45:33 <I440r> robert im teaching it all to you.... YOU write it down :P
13:45:35 * rob_ert prepares his gun, to speed things up a bit.
13:45:38 <rob_ert> Bah ;)
13:45:41 <rob_ert> I'd only make errors
13:45:51 <Speuler> Stepan: you alive ?
13:45:51 <rob_ert> Then you would have to spend a year fixing it.
13:45:59 <I440r> good - then they will be YOUR errors not mine and i wont get the blame for them heh
13:46:22 <rob_ert> Bah.
13:46:27 <rob_ert> That's the easy way.
13:46:35 <rob_ert> The hard way is to make something useful ;)
13:46:47 <futhin> speuler: join #openbios to talk to stepan
13:47:02 <Speuler> tnx
13:47:29 <futhin> you might have to idle a bit
13:47:34 <futhin> but i think he's more active there
13:47:49 <Speuler> i love to idle
13:50:17 <Speuler> i'm practicing CAI now
13:50:25 <Speuler> computer-aided idling
13:51:22 <futhin> heh
13:51:32 <futhin> the forth is strong in you
13:52:37 <Speuler> thought i get me some inside info about "united linux"
13:52:46 <Speuler> stepan could know
13:54:37 <Speuler> so it's debian,redhat,mandrake against the rest of the linux-world ?
13:56:48 <Speuler> ne1 seen  linux program "ht" ?
13:57:13 <Speuler> elf analyzer.  built-in x86 disassembler
13:59:20 <I440r> sources in forth?
13:59:40 <Speuler> don't think so
14:00:45 <Speuler> or DYWTS that i'm off-topic ?
14:01:10 <I440r> nono
14:01:15 <I440r> thers NO off topic in here
14:01:26 <I440r> anyone can talk anything
14:01:30 <I440r> i just wonderd heh
14:01:45 <Speuler> ah
14:02:47 <I440r> i fixed some bugs in isforth heh
14:02:54 <Speuler> cool
14:02:58 <I440r> ther was one that was realy bad that ive known about for a while
14:03:01 <I440r> if you typed
14:03:03 <Speuler> there ARE bugs in isforth ??
14:03:05 <I440r> : foo [enter]
14:03:18 <I440r> the cursor didnt move down to the next line
14:03:30 <I440r> you just got a space
14:03:43 <I440r> you couldnt define multi line : definitions interactivly
14:03:52 <I440r> there are no bugs now :) hehe
14:03:53 <I440r> lol
14:04:32 <I440r> and i was getting the width of a console in a kludgy manner\
14:05:05 <I440r> i was setting the cursor position to some way huge set of coordinates then asking the console where it actually got put
14:05:26 <I440r> now im using the termios structure to find the size
14:06:19 <Speuler> does the termios struct get updated upon term resize ?
14:07:23 <I440r> no but theres a signal that gets sent
14:07:44 <I440r> or..., the termios structure MIGHT but i wouldnt know to check :)
14:07:47 <I440r> unless i got a signal
14:07:52 <Speuler> how/what determines the term geometry after resize ?
14:08:29 <I440r> not sure what you mean
14:08:57 <Speuler> say, you start with 80x25
14:09:01 <I440r> k
14:09:24 <Speuler> you break lines at char pos 70
14:09:25 <Speuler> or 75
14:09:42 <I440r> oh
14:09:46 <Speuler> now term (xterm) is resized to ...
14:09:47 <I440r> you mean tib
14:09:52 <I440r> i was thinking about that
14:09:58 <Speuler> say 200x25
14:10:03 <I440r> tib is set to 80 chyars right now
14:10:09 <I440r> no matter HOW big the term is...
14:10:11 <I440r> which is bad
14:10:22 <I440r> tib should be exactly as wide as your terminal
14:11:25 <Speuler> allocate tib, resize upon term resize ?
14:11:59 <Speuler> btw
14:12:03 <I440r> or just make a 256 char tib but disallow input further than cols 5 - ?
14:12:19 <Speuler> why should len file lines relate in any way to term geometry ?
14:12:22 <davidw> magic numbers are a great idea
14:12:27 <I440r> oh
14:12:36 <I440r> source files lines are VERY restricted
14:12:47 <I440r> if any line goes beyond 80 chars the fload aborts
14:12:52 <I440r> this is to prevent buffer overflows
14:13:12 <I440r> besides. anyone who writes source files to 894798274698 columns should be shot :P
14:13:36 <Speuler> i get 266 chars on a line
14:13:47 <Speuler> some apps crashed on that :)
14:14:02 <Speuler> some apps could only deal with <256 chars
14:16:52 <I440r> :)
14:17:17 <I440r> i need a new version of scan
14:17:29 <I440r> one taht will scan up to the specified delimiter OR a cr
14:18:35 <I440r> ive figured out (with some help :
14:18:44 <I440r> :) how to memory map the source files
14:19:01 <Speuler> why ?
14:19:10 <Speuler> cr ends the line anyway
14:19:14 <Speuler> so the len is known
14:19:19 <I440r> because im going to point 'tib AT the memory mapped source file
14:19:26 <Speuler> you're not scanning to beyond end of line i suppose
14:19:26 <I440r> im going to set #tib equal to the file size
14:19:31 <I440r> exactly
14:19:45 <I440r> bl word will parse THROUGH a eol
14:19:49 <I440r> an eol
14:20:04 <Speuler> hmm
14:20:12 <Speuler> that may break some existing code
14:20:52 <I440r> the new parse would fix that
14:21:01 <I440r> erm scan
14:21:01 <Speuler> ah
14:21:02 <I440r> that is
14:21:09 <I440r> the OLD scan will still be there
14:21:24 <Speuler> "accept" with that behavior may be worse :)
14:21:27 <I440r> but WORD which calls parse-word will delimit on "delimiter or eol"
14:21:49 <Speuler> does isforth support accept or expect ?
14:24:13 <I440r> expect
14:24:17 <I440r> query and expect
14:24:54 <I440r> how come Speuler isnt using isforth every day and becoming aware of what it does and how it works lol
14:25:05 <I440r> i need people like you to know the system so you can help develop it!
14:30:59 <Speuler> I440r: i have been driving 1000 km yesterday
14:31:21 <Speuler> i get distracted using a computer whle driving
14:32:05 <Speuler> and i like accept :)
14:32:22 <Speuler> was using it instead of expect before ANs came up with it
14:32:50 <Speuler> like you, i don't mind using non-standard contructs
14:33:05 <I440r> :)
14:33:10 <Speuler> but my non-standard prefs seem to be different from yours
14:33:24 <I440r> you COULD pull over and wip out the laptop you know :)
14:33:25 <I440r> lol
14:33:41 <Speuler> what does your 2nip do :)?
14:33:47 <I440r> 2nip ?
14:33:53 <I440r> i dont have that do i ?
14:33:58 <Speuler> -rot 2drop ?
14:34:04 <Speuler> or 2swap 2drop ?
14:34:14 <Speuler> oh
14:34:16 <I440r> i cant remember implementing a 2nip heh
14:34:27 <Speuler> you were consid'ing it short while ago
14:34:27 <I440r> ambiguous functionality
14:34:39 <I440r> i remember stating it in channel
14:34:58 <I440r> but it wasnt something i REALY intended to implement lol
14:35:03 <I440r> i think i said it as a joke :)
14:35:29 <I440r> : 2nip nip nip ; would be faster than : 2nip -rot 2drop ;
14:35:38 <Speuler> with stack cache, yes
14:35:41 <I440r> yes
14:35:42 <Speuler> definitely
14:36:01 <Speuler> add sp, cell*2
14:36:20 <I440r> yup
14:37:00 --- quit: rob_ert ("Nothing is real. I think.")
14:37:35 <I440r> so where is your perm residence now Speuler
14:42:45 <Speuler> ahem
14:42:55 <I440r> ?
14:43:04 <Speuler> i've given up my dutch flat
14:43:14 <Speuler> right now i live nowhere
14:43:23 <Speuler> well
14:43:30 <I440r> how do you survive like that ?
14:43:49 <Speuler> i use an appartement in munich
14:44:01 <Speuler> which has been made available to me free of charge
14:44:07 <I440r> cool
14:44:08 <Speuler> and i got my camper
14:44:46 <Speuler> will get me a flat near prague
14:44:56 <Speuler> for a while
14:51:23 <CrowKiller> there must be a better way to code this:
14:51:24 <CrowKiller> :Compile (compile a list of token)
14:51:24 <CrowKiller> dup -if drop WordToken ;
14:51:24 <CrowKiller> then shl
14:51:24 <CrowKiller> -if drop FunctionToken ;
14:51:24 <CrowKiller> then shl
14:51:25 <CrowKiller> -if shl
14:51:27 <CrowKiller> 	-if drop NewWordToken ;
14:51:29 <CrowKiller> 	then drop CommentToken ;
14:51:31 <CrowKiller> then shl
14:51:33 <CrowKiller> 	-if drop RLEToken ;
14:51:35 <CrowKiller> 	then drop BinRecordToken;
14:52:11 <CrowKiller> can begin/next construct output on the stack the number of time they went into the loop?
14:53:43 <CrowKiller> because the "-if drop call ; then shl ;" could be enhanced, im sure of it
14:54:02 <CrowKiller> i mean there should be a more compact representation
14:54:11 <CrowKiller> than a list of them
14:54:45 <I440r> im not surewhat your trying to do
14:54:57 <I440r> put it all in a case statement?
14:55:07 <I440r> inside a loop that keeps doing shl
14:57:03 --- nick: kc-meeting -> kc5tja
14:57:20 <kc5tja> I'm back.
14:57:28 <mur`> i'll go away..
14:57:29 <mur`> soon...
14:57:49 <kc5tja> Almost bedtime for you?
14:58:14 <mur`> 1 am
14:58:16 <mur`> i'd say
14:58:17 <mur`> about
14:58:20 <mur`> "Keep up the good work if thats what you do"
14:58:22 <kc5tja> Heh
14:58:36 <kc5tja> Well, that depends on how you define "good work."
14:58:36 <kc5tja> :)
14:58:42 <mur`> that was quote
14:58:43 <I440r> mur lol
14:58:46 <I440r> your never here !!!
14:58:49 <mur`> i doubt author knew indeed
14:58:54 <mur`> i'm here all the time but never talk
14:59:00 <mur`> unless i notice something intriguing
14:59:01 <I440r> lol
14:59:07 <mur`> 5 networks
14:59:10 <mur`> 20+ channels
14:59:21 <I440r> kc5 hope that wasnt a "your fired" meeting :)
14:59:24 <Speuler> ahem
14:59:26 <kc5tja> Nope.
14:59:31 <I440r> mur me too. but im NOT addicted!
14:59:32 <I440r> lol
14:59:35 <kc5tja> It's a monthly all-hands meeting.
14:59:37 <Speuler> looping shl is inefficient
15:00:23 <Speuler> you have lshift
15:00:33 <I440r> no
15:00:37 <I440r> shift left once
15:00:40 <I440r> test result and act on it
15:00:45 <I440r> shift left once
15:00:47 <Speuler> ah
15:00:50 <I440r> test result and act on it
15:00:53 <I440r> inside a loop heh
15:01:03 <mur`> I440r who said i'dbe addicted
15:01:17 <mur`> i just dont want to waste expensive internet connection ;)
15:01:32 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
15:01:33 <mur`> besides i have not been htere much for couple of days
15:01:40 <mur`> and wont be next week much either
15:01:44 <I440r> mur im usually on undernet in 3 channels, ircnet in 3 or 4, dal in 3, here in 7 and i occasionally go on effenet
15:01:48 <mur`> in the beginnign not at all
15:01:55 <I440r> i also have icq, aol and yahoo messenger :P
15:02:02 <mur`> which ircnet channels?
15:02:10 <I440r> #coders, #3dcoders
15:02:14 <I440r> im not in there rite now
15:02:18 <mur`> good ppl there
15:02:23 <mur`> irc net can be such annoyance
15:02:27 <I440r> they know their graphics stuff thats for sure
15:02:49 <kc5tja> Any demo coders who want to write a demo in Forth?  ;D
15:02:52 <I440r> theres a guy in there called tom hammersley that ive known from undernet about 8 years ago :)
15:03:10 <I440r> tomh
15:03:43 <mur`> usually i'm on 7 so channels on opn, 2 in ircnet (both finnish), one not-yet-released network some channels, usually 1 or 2, efnet on 5 so channels
15:04:02 <mur`> sometimes on lithuanian network for my old
15:04:04 <mur`> friend
15:04:10 <I440r> oh yea. i also used to have my irc server connected to digarix.net :) hehe
15:04:25 <I440r> kc5 only me :)
15:04:40 <I440r> maybe ill convert my DOW demo to forth heh
15:04:49 <I440r> i already converted it to a windowmaker dockapp heh
15:05:31 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
15:05:37 <I440r> bath time!
15:05:38 <I440r> :)
15:06:17 <Speuler> may the bubbles be with you
15:06:19 <I440r> Speuler: how come ur driving so much ?
15:06:34 <Speuler> netherland - munich
15:06:44 <Speuler> came back to munich yesterday
15:07:25 <mur`> take a train next time
15:07:29 <Speuler> actually, i still got the dutch flat. only passed it along to somebody else
15:07:33 <I440r> no. driving is better
15:07:44 <Speuler> had to transport quite a lot
15:08:35 <Speuler> mur`: sometimes i do take the train
15:08:53 <Speuler> mur`: but only if i can carry what i take along with me
15:09:10 <mur`> harrr
15:09:20 <mur`> cheese and grapes
15:09:47 <Speuler> mur`: i have emptied my flat ...
15:10:00 <mur`> ohkay
15:10:04 <mur`> Name: Paulus Arnoldus Johannes Wilhelmina Cooijmans
15:10:07 <mur`> ooh.. such long time
15:10:09 <mur`> name
15:10:10 <mur`> :P
15:10:12 <mur`> habbah
15:10:22 <mur`> finland that would not be even legal
15:10:26 <mur`> too many names
15:10:47 <davidw> really? what a bunch of comunists
15:12:00 <I440r> whats the maximum number of names you can have ?
15:12:01 <I440r> lol
15:12:16 <mur`> hmm...
15:12:18 <mur`> 3 i suppose
15:12:25 <mur`> because it makes very hard to use
15:12:30 <mur`> you can combine 2 names
15:12:34 <mur`> like juho-pekka
15:12:35 <mur`> etc
15:12:37 <mur`> so that's 6
15:12:41 <mur`> like it
15:12:43 <mur`> but honestly
15:12:47 <davidw> they probably have to enter them in some IBM machine from 1962
15:12:49 <mur`> it makes just things hard to have many names
15:13:07 <mur`> davidw yea right, we live in caves and eat hay
15:13:23 <davidw> either that, or they have to enter them in nokia cell phones
15:13:32 <davidw> beep beep beep tapping away at the numeric keypad
15:13:48 <mur`> americans are funny, they are always claiming other communists if that does not suit their world view
15:13:49 <I440r> lol
15:13:54 <I440r> neway im outa here to go code
15:13:55 <I440r> bbl
15:14:01 <mur`> actually usa is the most conservative western country
15:14:02 --- quit: I440r ("coding")
15:14:07 <mur`> and most strict
15:14:11 <davidw> mur`: "it's a joke"
15:14:15 <mur`> still
15:14:27 <davidw> mur`: for some things, yes, for other things no
15:14:53 <davidw> if you want to make a company, or create an invention or something similar, the US is a good place to do it
15:15:06 <mur`> davidw maybe
15:15:14 <mur`> but you think with money not with brains
15:15:17 <mur`> muhahah
15:15:57 <mur`> americans claim for "free country" even though, it's less free than many other , most western countries if not all
15:16:08 <davidw> like I said, *in some ways*
15:16:16 <mur`> and i tell the other ways
15:16:17 <mur`> :)
15:16:26 <davidw> you can have whatever name you want, first of all
15:16:38 <mur`> yes
15:16:39 <CrowKiller> tell me if you can put a name on this or if its brand new: a looping construct that increment a count at each itteration and return this count on the stack at the end
15:16:44 <mur`> is that always good?
15:16:44 <davidw> you have less regulations and taxes
15:16:57 <mur`> davidw yes but you have to pay as much as we do here
15:17:02 <mur`> but you dont pay to state
15:17:07 <mur`> but to private instances
15:17:14 <mur`> and you dont get as good services maybe
15:17:27 <davidw> mmmmmmm it depends...
15:17:47 <mur`> because companies dont have as strict rules than state provided services, though, i dont say there woudl not be good ones too, of course there are them too
15:18:05 <mur`> if you want to get good education it will cost you millions of dollars
15:18:08 <futhin> wow! what an interesting conversation
15:18:14 <mur`> here the state pays education
15:18:14 <davidw> basically, I think people that think "our way of life is best" are stupid
15:18:17 <mur`> even university
15:18:19 <mur`> yes
15:18:24 <mur`> it is
15:18:33 <mur`> but not seeing others alternatives is even more stupid
15:18:47 <davidw> who doesn't see other alternatives?
15:18:56 <mur`> many americans fail to that, ingonarancy, but i dont mean you, i hope
15:18:58 <davidw> besides i440r, I mean
15:19:18 <futhin> i was being sarcastic
15:19:19 * davidw lives in Italy, actually, so has some pretty good first hand experience with the alternatives;-)
15:19:21 <mur`> some americans claim welfare state to be communist for example
15:19:27 <mur`> what ever
15:19:32 <mur`> i was talking about americans
15:19:38 * davidw *is* american
15:19:40 <mur`> yes
15:19:56 <mur`> but italy is not welfare state in similar way than finland is
15:20:01 <davidw> sure it is
15:20:09 <davidw> it's just more corrupt, and warmer;-)
15:20:15 <mur`> no it is not
15:20:29 <mur`> because ou dont know finnish system you cant' claim it isn't
15:20:46 <mur`> finland is, btw, lest corrupted country in the whole world
15:20:58 <davidw> I bet they just pay people to say that
15:21:00 <mur`> finnish system is quite different from italian and american
15:21:06 <mur`> why woudl they?
15:21:36 <davidw> you need to buy a sense of irony on ebay
15:21:45 <mur`> why?
15:22:20 <davidw> they are half-off this week
15:22:23 <davidw> a summer discount
15:22:39 <mur`> why woudl i buy anything from ebay
15:22:58 <mur`> oh you are selling yours
15:22:59 <mur`> ;)
15:32:58 <futhin> all realists are just stupid people who think they are realists but don't have an understanding of how the world works
15:33:45 <mur`> false
15:34:10 <CrowKiller> futhin: I would add a little "nearly" as a prefix to your last sentence
15:38:32 <futhin> well gotta go
15:38:33 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
15:51:38 <Speuler> servus leid
15:51:51 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1")
15:57:14 --- nick: mur` -> mur
16:06:13 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
16:09:51 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:38:45 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login11.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
16:38:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn
16:38:50 <tcn> hey all
16:39:30 <Soap`> Morning
16:39:39 <mur> night
16:39:42 <mur> 3 am here
16:40:35 <CrowKiller> here 19:45
16:40:58 <CrowKiller> btw here refers to Quebec, Canada
16:41:23 <tcn> finnish.. i knew it :)
16:41:50 <tcn> where in quebec?
16:42:03 <mur> :)
16:42:06 <mur> finnish can't sleep
16:42:11 <mur> it's light night all summer
16:42:16 <mur> but i have to practise for the summer ;)
16:42:17 <tcn> oh heheh
16:42:34 <tcn> is that a problem for working finns?
16:45:19 <mur> 3owokrign?
16:45:23 <mur> espevially to them
16:45:27 <mur> becasue they need sleep ;)
16:45:49 <tcn> well anyway, i can't sleep here either
16:45:54 <CrowKiller> in a region called Abitibi-Ouest
16:46:02 <mur> i am tired and coudl sleep but i have problem
16:46:06 <mur> i need to solve first
16:46:37 <tcn> ck: where's that? north, east, center..?
16:59:02 <CrowKiller> near the border of ontario
16:59:11 <CrowKiller> the timezone is eastern
17:04:34 <tcn> so you're pretty close to New York?
17:05:07 <CrowKiller> hmmm not at all
17:05:14 <CrowKiller> go on infomap
17:05:18 <CrowKiller> or mapquest
17:05:28 <CrowKiller> and enter La Sarre as the town name
17:05:31 <CrowKiller> quebec, canada
17:05:57 --- join: tom (tcn@tc4-login11.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
17:19:01 <CrowKiller> i saw images on tv showing ceremonies at ground zero
17:19:31 <CrowKiller> showing a truck carrying one intact piece of one of the towers
17:19:58 <CrowKiller> covered in black and also with the traditional american flag
17:20:11 <tom> oh yeah.. and bagpipers :0
17:20:50 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise OutOfInternet")
17:20:56 <CrowKiller> this thing is only a big show, i mean the entire world is being manipulated and the americains go into it ehad on
17:21:07 <CrowKiller> look only at the pentagon crash
17:21:12 <CrowKiller> no debris on photos
17:21:21 <CrowKiller> the plane vaporized into thinh air
17:21:39 <CrowKiller> and it crashed perpendicular to the face of the building
17:22:02 <CrowKiller> its impossible to pilot a plane this big at this height of the ground to plant it into that wall at that height, period
17:22:11 <tom> uhh.. people I know have been to NYC and seen that the trade center is gone
17:22:30 <CrowKiller> its absolutely impossible
17:22:35 <CrowKiller> that boiengs
17:22:35 <tom> if they can't hit a 5-story building, how are they supposed to land?
17:22:59 <CrowKiller> they cant hit a building with such precision, every pilot knows that
17:23:10 <CrowKiller> there was beacons inside the towers
17:23:20 <CrowKiller> radio amateur in the areas confirmed it
17:23:59 <CrowKiller> the book "L'Effroyable Imposture" tells it all
17:24:17 <CrowKiller> how americans got manipulated, and the entire world by the way
17:24:33 <tom> who wrote it?
17:24:45 <CrowKiller> a  fench journalist
17:24:48 <CrowKiller> french
17:25:34 <tom> ok, so who plotted this whole thing, if it wasn't our buddy Osama?
17:25:46 <CrowKiller> not at all
17:25:51 <CrowKiller> there was a land force
17:26:01 <CrowKiller> who rigged with explosives the surrounding buildings
17:26:14 <CrowKiller> because in one of them there was a CIA outpost for spying on walstreet
17:26:26 <CrowKiller> firemen heard detonations
17:26:40 <kc5tja> You'd hear detonations too if a 747 landed smack into the building...
17:26:51 <kc5tja> And don't say it didn't happen -- we have it on video!
17:26:59 <CrowKiller> so the surrounding didnt collapsed only by the shockwave
17:27:06 <CrowKiller> it happenned
17:27:17 <CrowKiller> thats not the point
17:27:24 <CrowKiller> the point is that there was beacons
17:27:36 <tom> i saw the 2nd plane fly through the building
17:27:41 <CrowKiller> and that terrorist only needed to push a button to make the plane crash
17:28:11 <CrowKiller> they didnt need to elarn how to pilot and leve evidence in their cars in some airport parking lot!|
17:28:19 <tom> so what if they sent someone in the to plant a beacon? it's a public building.. er, it was
17:28:35 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:28:38 <CrowKiller> there also a remote control system in every boieng to counter air pirates
17:28:39 <kc5tja> Sorry, but airplanes don't work like that.
17:28:45 <kc5tja> Someone needs to pilot the plane.
17:29:06 <tom> I bet you I could fly a 747 into a building
17:29:13 <CrowKiller> i bet you no
17:29:15 <kc5tja> tom: Squarely at that.
17:29:20 <tom> yeah
17:29:24 <kc5tja> Have you ever flown in a flight simulator before?
17:29:25 <CrowKiller> since its going near 700km/h
17:29:29 <kc5tja> I mean, a REAL flight simulator?
17:29:35 <tom> not a real one, no
17:29:47 <kc5tja> CrowKiller: That's almost the speed of sound, sir...those planes are not going that fast!
17:29:51 <tom> but i've been in a plane
17:29:58 <CrowKiller> its impossible the angle was this good on the towers
17:30:02 <kc5tja> I have flown a real flight simulator, and those planes are incredibly easy to fly.
17:30:12 <kc5tja> CrowKiller: It is NOT impossible.
17:30:13 <tom> yeah, very smooth steering
17:30:16 <kc5tja> We *SAW* them coming in!!
17:30:37 <CrowKiller> lolol your president is manipulating you
17:30:51 <kc5tja> I'm sure you wear aluminum foil hats too to prevent such mind control rays.
17:31:06 <CrowKiller> he,s using words
17:31:08 <CrowKiller> liek devil
17:31:11 <kc5tja> I saw the evidence.  The videos, heard the radio transmissions, etc.
17:31:11 <CrowKiller> evil oussamma etc
17:31:14 <tom> I wouldn't fly in a plane that was so uncontrollable it couldn't hit the biggest building in NYC
17:31:18 <CrowKiller> come on
17:31:30 <CrowKiller> oussama ben laden was a CVIA opeartive
17:31:36 <kc5tja> Bullshit.
17:31:40 <CrowKiller> anyway the book explain it all
17:31:49 <kc5tja> You also believe in HyperScience, so that says it all.
17:32:06 <tom> he WAS receiving US support, back when he was fighting the russians
17:32:17 <kc5tja> Sure, and we admitted that to the public, fair and square.
17:32:22 <CrowKiller> the book's using references accessible trhough the net and official press documents
17:32:23 <kc5tja> We also helped Sadam Hussein too.
17:32:35 <tom> so we changed our minds :)
17:32:36 <kc5tja> CrowKiller: And everything you read on the net is true?!
17:32:42 --- quit: mur ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.")
17:32:43 <kc5tja> Exactly.
17:32:43 <CrowKiller> come on!
17:32:49 <kc5tja> No, YOU come on!
17:32:51 <CrowKiller> look at the pictures of the pentagon crash
17:32:51 <tom> oh no, only everything you read on paper :)
17:32:54 <kc5tja> Get a grip on reality, please?
17:32:56 <CrowKiller> do you see debris?
17:33:00 <kc5tja> YES!!!
17:33:18 <kc5tja> You think the Prez staged the destruction of his own prized child?!
17:33:24 <CrowKiller> i mean "real debris of a crashed airplane"
17:33:24 <kc5tja> That's insane!
17:33:28 <kc5tja> YES!!!
17:33:33 <kc5tja> I DID as a matter of fact.
17:33:43 <kc5tja> I saw the very hull of the plane itself for one.
17:33:55 <kc5tja> Let alone the torn up parking lot...
17:34:05 <kc5tja> The huge ass hole in the building, the ripped wings...
17:34:21 <CrowKiller> I looked at the photos and didnt saw the wings
17:34:35 <kc5tja> Well, then the author of that book is deceiving you.
17:34:36 <CrowKiller> If I had a scanner I would scan it for you
17:34:42 <tom> maybe they disintegrated?
17:34:45 <CrowKiller> my mother is a librarian so I read a lot ;p
17:35:03 <kc5tja> I know how to read too.  But that doesn't change anything.
17:35:31 <kc5tja> I have a firm grasp of reality, I can critically think for myself.  Everything I read, I always ask myself, "What motive does the author have for saying this?  What proof does he offer?  Is the proof verifyable?"
17:35:33 <kc5tja> EVERYTHING.
17:35:54 <CrowKiller> doesnt make you invulnerable you know
17:35:56 <kc5tja> I don't have blind faith of any kind.
17:36:02 <CrowKiller> me neither
17:36:05 <kc5tja> No, but apparently you got dupped bigtime.
17:36:27 <kc5tja> What happened on 9/11 was not a stage-up.
17:36:35 <kc5tja> There were a lot of people who really died that day.
17:36:47 <kc5tja> There were a lot of government organizations who were in deep shit for not seeing something like this happening.
17:37:07 <kc5tja> In fact, it's all over the headlines here: FBI admitted that it didn't act appropriately when it received potential warnings of a hijacking attempt.
17:37:34 <kc5tja> And now we also know that still more attempts are being planned on this country.
17:37:39 <kc5tja> This is not some fantasy.
17:37:42 <kc5tja> This is life and death.
17:37:49 <kc5tja> We are patently aware of what terrorism is like now.
17:37:59 <kc5tja> Terrorism is no longer restricted to the Middle East anymore.
17:38:09 <CrowKiller> i look attentively at the facts, but since im young i havent been brainwashed yet or to be pollitically correct, disinformed yet, I look at the causes, not only the effects. Everything is simple, once you think of it.
17:38:26 <CrowKiller> they sued exactos, tahts a fact amde to make america fear even more
17:38:44 <kc5tja> But because you are young, you have no experience, and you are extremely gullable.  The media takes extreme advantage of this, especially with people who try to hide and revise the true history.
17:38:46 <CrowKiller> they found exactos bags in afganistan
17:38:54 <CrowKiller> i saw this on news at once lol
17:39:35 <kc5tja> Yes, and airports in America are now doing things like checking shoes and socks for sharp objects, and confiscating *ANYTHING* with a sharp point on it (my friend's nail clipper set was confiscated when he went on vacation in Hawaii).
17:39:46 <tom> razor blades aren't gonna scare anyone now
17:40:01 <kc5tja> Especially if they know any martial arts of any kind.
17:40:13 <kc5tja> I'm not afraid of razor blades, especially when I can disarm someone with a katana.
17:40:17 <tom> look at that guy with the bomb in his shoe.. they kicked his ass
17:40:28 <CrowKiller> tsss a bomb can be made
17:40:33 <CrowKiller> by carrying the ingredients
17:40:39 <CrowKiller> in powder form
17:40:47 <CrowKiller> mixed onboard and detonated
17:40:53 <CrowKiller> really easy
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17:41:00 <CrowKiller> only the amonium nitrate
17:41:13 <CrowKiller> need to be in a airtight container
17:41:22 <kc5tja> The plane that fell in Pennsilvania fell short of its target because a world-class Judo champion from Japan tackled and wiped the floor with all THREE of the hijackers.  But because the plane's pilot was dead, noone had the wherewithall to bring the nose of the plane up.
17:41:25 <CrowKiller> so the dogs dont smell it
17:42:02 <kc5tja> CrowKiller: It's far, far, far easier to do more massive damage.  A remote controlled airplane can carry nuclear payloads, small enough to be completely unseen to military and civilian radar.
17:42:15 <kc5tja> Look up the "Pipercub Offense" on Google, by Jef Raskin.
17:42:19 <kc5tja> Scary stuff.
17:42:37 <CrowKiller> I know I can do it at home
17:42:39 <kc5tja> Besides, liquids are much better than powders.  Chlorine bleach and ammonia -- very potent stuff.
17:43:01 <kc5tja> Non-explosive, but it kills every time.  You don't need explosives when the airplane itself is a ballistic missile.
17:43:56 <CrowKiller> thats why its written on Palmolive brand dish washing liquid not to mix it with bleach
17:44:05 <CrowKiller> cause it generates chlorine
17:44:08 <kc5tja> The days of big military forces is over.  Distributed attacks have proven *lethal* in the past as they do today, both on the Internet and in real life.
17:44:36 <kc5tja> CrowKiller: Chlorine and a type of acid (I forget which).  So if the gas doesn't kill you, the acid will corrode you.  :D
17:45:35 <CrowKiller> I remember one time when I was 14
17:45:37 <tom> gotta go
17:45:40 <tom> see ya guys
17:45:42 <CrowKiller> we got to a ntaional park
17:45:43 <CrowKiller> see ya
17:45:44 <kc5tja> later, tom!
17:46:22 <CrowKiller> and I brought with me Draino, a 2 liter Pepsi Bottle and some aluminium paper
17:46:28 <CrowKiller> and Telfon too
17:46:44 <CrowKiller> we ate our luch on top of a big ravine
17:46:48 <kc5tja> Oh god -- aluminum and teflon -- I won't even get into that rather explosive combination.. :D
17:46:52 <CrowKiller> it was a school actrivity
17:47:02 <CrowKiller> only a bang device
17:47:08 * kc5tja nods
17:47:16 <CrowKiller> mix the draino with scrapped aluminium
17:47:22 <CrowKiller> to accelerate the reeaction
17:47:33 <CrowKiller> put telfon on the threads of the bottle
17:47:46 <CrowKiller> bring some water in, close tighest as you can the bottle
17:47:52 <CrowKiller> adn throw it away
17:48:14 <CrowKiller> 5 seconds later you have the loudest non explosive boom around lol
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17:48:32 <kc5tja> Oh, it's definately explosive -- it's just not a detonation.  :)
17:48:45 <kc5tja> Actually, try this sometime... :D
17:48:50 <CrowKiller> when the plastic bottle rips apart, the pressured gas escape at sonic velocities
17:48:58 <CrowKiller> so it makes a boom
17:49:08 <kc5tja> Take a 3L soda bottle, and fill it up with luke-warm water.  Throw in some pellets of dry ice, and cap it tightly, quickly.  Chuck it fast and run... :D
17:49:29 <kc5tja> Yup.
17:49:59 <CrowKiller> the teachers never heard it, and the friends smoking pot on the other side of the ravine were in delirium lol
17:50:10 <CrowKiller> my 15 minutes of glory that year ;p
17:50:18 <kc5tja> You rebel you... ;D
17:51:03 <kc5tja> Teflon power and aluminum powder makes for a rather explosive combination too.
17:51:20 <kc5tja> Or, you can make thermite by mixing aluminum and iron oxide filings, and igniting that.
17:51:57 <CrowKiller> a thermite is really too much lol
17:52:06 <CrowKiller> it burned concrete when we tried lol
17:52:18 <CrowKiller> i mean it melted it
17:52:29 <kc5tja> Yup.
17:52:36 <kc5tja> That's what took down the Hindenburg actually.
17:52:50 <CrowKiller> yeah i did an oral presentation on that one
17:52:58 <kc5tja> Static discharge caused the thermite to ignite, which caused a very rapid deflagration of the hydrogen gas inside.
17:53:21 <kc5tja> But most of the hydrogen just leaked out -- it never detonated, burning only as it vented.
17:53:34 <kc5tja> (This is why I would love to have a H2 powered car -- it's safer than gasoline)
17:53:49 <kc5tja> Most of the fire was thermite -- that's why it was so bright.  :)
17:53:55 <CrowKiller> yeah it doesnt do much radiant heat
17:54:07 <CrowKiller> that was the theme of my oral presentation
17:54:10 <CrowKiller> it was 1 year ago
17:54:18 <CrowKiller> h2 powered things ;p
17:54:35 <CrowKiller> i veen did a sput gun powered with h2 collected from eletrolysis
17:54:42 <kc5tja> Aaahh...it seems there are two types of thermite.  The first is as I mentioned; the second is, in fact, teflon and aluminum filings.  :)
17:54:54 <kc5tja> H2 is fun stuff.
17:54:59 <CrowKiller> vever tried the one with telfon though
17:55:10 <kc5tja> It flashes, and that's it.  You have water vapor left over, and the combustion chamber is nice and cool.  :)
17:56:00 * kc5tja has considered using electrolysis generated hydrogen to power his turbines for brief periods of time, just to see what it'd be like.
17:56:21 <kc5tja> I *love* the flame color that H2 has when it burns.  It's a beautiful shade of magenta/deep purple.
17:56:36 <kc5tja> brb -- someone in my cubicle.
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18:00:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
18:00:51 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:01:39 <CrowKiller> hi
18:01:52 <TheBlueWizard> hiya CrowKiller
18:03:50 <kc5tja> back
18:03:53 <kc5tja> re TheBlueWizard
18:04:03 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
18:04:18 <CrowKiller> I'm trying to ease my coding in forth from assembly effort by implementing the x18macros in the NASM assembler
18:04:24 <TheBlueWizard> learned more about Prolog, eh?
18:04:46 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: No; I haven't had much time since the day prior.
18:04:59 <kc5tja> But I did manage to achieve a minor rite of passage in aikido yesterday.
18:05:38 <kc5tja> I was notified by my sensei that my ukemi is getting to a level where he can use me for demonstrations in front of the class.
18:05:44 <TheBlueWizard> oh?  getting a new belt?
18:06:02 <kc5tja> He made good on that after informing me this, using me almost the remainder of the night for demonstrations of techniques.
18:06:07 <kc5tja> No -- new belts mean nothing.
18:06:21 <TheBlueWizard> um...ukemi == ? (I'm very rusty on karate vocabulary)
18:06:36 <kc5tja> Here I am, a 4 kyu student, being used for demonstrations by sensei, when there are 2 kyu and 1 kyu students who should be up there instead.
18:06:41 <kc5tja> It's not karate.
18:07:02 <kc5tja> Ukemi means "receiving technique" -- your ability to take a fall, roll out of something, etc.
18:07:30 <TheBlueWizard> ok....I understand...but there are number of words which are used by many Japanese martial arts...
18:07:36 <TheBlueWizard> ah
18:08:01 * TheBlueWizard deftly inserts "used in common by..." above
18:09:52 <kc5tja> Well, sutemi is more often used than ukemi.  sutemi has a similar meaning, but it's more like, "resisting technique," or "sacrifice for the technique"
18:10:08 <kc5tja> Similar, but not accurate for use in the context of aikido.
18:10:30 <TheBlueWizard> ok
18:11:21 <CrowKiller> http://www.spudtech.com/ I'll maybe make a mortar version for myslef soon, this site really inspired me ;p
18:11:23 <kc5tja> Aikido is more similar to Tai Chi (in fact, though I'm not positive of this, Tai Chi *sounds* a lot like Ai Ki; in my research on Tai Chi, the two arts have nearly identical goals, philosophies, and even teachings.)
18:12:07 <TheBlueWizard> interesting...I wasn't aware of this possible connection
18:12:52 <kc5tja> Tai Chi is very connected to Taoism; Tao in Chinese is Do in Japanese (note that Tao is pronounced "dow" and not "tau"!)
18:14:29 <kc5tja> Literally, Aikido can be viewed as Tai Chi one step further.
18:15:00 <kc5tja> Tai Chi was originally designed as an offensive, yet defensive art.  It is soft and supple, and the underlying principle is "absorb the attackers energy before applying your own."
18:15:42 <kc5tja> Aikido is distinct in that there is no "apply your own."  You literally apply the opponents energy against him.  As such, Aikido has no offensive component (unless you consider psychological tricks like goading your opponent to strike first).
18:16:59 <kc5tja> Even the symbols adopted by Tai Chi and Aikido (the circle) are the same.  :)
18:17:31 <kc5tja> It's fascinating to me to see how two different martial arts, with no physical connection, can independently discover the same concepts, use the same symbols, and end up with (essentially) the same name.
18:20:16 * TheBlueWizard assumes kc5tja meant to say "historical connection" instead of "physical connection"
18:20:33 <kc5tja> That too.
18:20:53 <kc5tja> But I did choose physical connection as well -- the two arts really are quite distinct in form and practice (e.g., physics).
18:21:53 * TheBlueWizard thinks kc5tja made a poor choice of word ("physics"), but he gets the point
18:22:03 <kc5tja> I disagree.
18:22:10 <kc5tja> Physics governs everything in this world.
18:25:46 <TheBlueWizard> yes....but we are talking about higher level, e.g. psychology, bodily movements, etc....which are large subjects unto themselves.  Saying physics governs aikido is a bit like saying lifeforms governs aikido....way too general and rather pointless at this level of relationship.  By that I most definitely do not imply that Newton's Laws etc. don't apply...they indeed must apply....
18:26:17 <kc5tja> OK, I'll buy that.
18:26:22 <TheBlueWizard> :)
18:28:05 <TheBlueWizard> another analogy: math governs the computing, and we usually discuss various programming concepts and philosophies.....do we have to discuss the math at that level?  :)
18:31:01 <kc5tja> Sometimes, we do.
18:34:17 <TheBlueWizard> yes...and the same can be said for physics and aikido... :)
18:35:03 * TheBlueWizard deftly manipulates the discourse so that it falls against kc5tja's face....how aikido-like of him!
18:35:50 <kc5tja> No, it is I who was aikido-like.  I had no context for your disagreement.  Instead of forcing the issue, I merely left it open for you to explain yourself, and agreed to it (it was logical).
18:36:07 <kc5tja> I feel no shame in any of my statements, before or after.
18:36:21 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
18:38:44 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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19:42:42 <kc5tja> re MysticOne
19:43:20 <kc5tja> wrong channel...whoops.  :)
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23:05:56 <kc5tja> going to bed.  Later!
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