00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.26 01:31:15 --- join: Penn_and_Teller (~gilbert@m133.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 01:32:04 Murr... 01:32:18 Hej rob_ert 01:43:30 --- nick: Penn_and_Teller -> GilbertBSD 02:13:58 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 02:59:20 --- quit: Soap` () 03:23:39 --- join: Oscarian (~oscar@dsl-202-45-106-75.QLD.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 03:23:43 Hey. 03:23:46 howdy! 03:23:54 What system are you on? 03:24:08 www.forth.org <--- there you can find a lot of forth info :) 03:24:12 i've got an AMD Thunderbird 1.2GHz atm 03:24:16 so, intel platform 03:24:17 I mean OS. 03:24:20 oh, linux 03:24:22 :) 03:24:22 Including forth systems and compilers. 03:24:23 sorry... 03:24:30 Maybe you want to try IsForth then ;-) 03:24:55 hmm, okay...i'll check it out 03:24:57 Please note that forth is more of an idea than a language. 03:25:09 btw, I can show you some forth code I wrote before. 03:25:53 sure! 03:26:00 http://ostling.no-ip.com/files/ypn/snippets/tea.f 03:26:11 Note that this isn't a good example, I'm just a newbie. 03:26:16 But it might give you some ideas. 03:26:22 (And it might make you puke=) 03:27:55 where would i find IsForth? 03:28:12 http://isforth.clss.net/ 03:28:41 I contributed with some code to it... but I made a nice little bug that can make your programs segfault :D 03:28:49 Don't know if he's fixed it. 03:29:01 hmm, it looks a little bit like a scripting language? 03:29:19 It can be used for that. 03:29:40 There are some implementations of forth as a scripting language for C/C++ programs. 03:30:05 it seems on the outset to be quite rudimentary...but it looks on the inset to be quite complex... 03:30:05 http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/pf_tut.htm <-- nice tutorial. 03:30:22 What I find hardest is all the stack magic .) 03:32:14 btw 03:32:30 http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html <--- IDE driver in forth. 03:32:38 ah 03:32:39 :) 03:32:41 cool 03:33:01 isforth doesn't want to make 03:33:03 :( 03:33:06 Not? 03:33:09 What happends? 03:33:16 Do you have a good NASM version? 03:33:22 Get 0.98.32 :) 03:33:29 sf.net/projects/nasm 03:34:16 i typed "make linux" and it spat out hundreds of "unknown preprocessor directive" errors 03:34:17 yscalls.1:160: unknown preprocessor directive `%xdefine' 03:34:17 syscalls.1:160: label or instruction expected at start of line 03:34:17 syscalls.1:160: unknown preprocessor directive `%xdefine' 03:34:17 syscalls.1:160: label or instruction expected at start of line 03:34:23 hundreds of those 03:34:25 Yeah. 03:34:31 Get a new NASM version. 03:34:42 Sad tha 0.98 is still out there. 03:34:46 ah 03:34:47 okaty 03:39:22 ah, it works :) 03:41:09 hmm 03:41:17 i ran it, now i can't quit out of it =-/ 03:41:51 * Oscarian watches as galeon crashes .... argh! 03:44:01 rob_ert: how do i quit out from isforth? 03:47:09 bye 03:47:35 Most forths use that word to quit :) 03:48:05 hmm 03:48:08 ah, bye 03:48:17 eurika! :) 03:48:22 :) 03:48:54 so, now i'll have to sit down with some forth...that ide controller looks suprisingly short 03:49:37 Yeah :) 03:50:24 The basic idea of forth is that you push values to the stack, and call words that do something with them. 03:50:34 oh... 03:50:42 For example, . means print integer. 03:50:46 1 2 + . 03:51:05 That pushes 1 and 2, adds them (now we only have 3 on the stack), and then . prints that 3 03:51:09 so that pushes 1 onto the stack, then 2, then +, then . for print? 03:51:12 ah 03:51:17 Yeah :) 03:51:20 neat 03:51:40 Sure :) 03:52:07 * Oscarian re-reads the ide controller code 03:52:48 : bsy 1f7 p@ 80 and if bsy ; then ; 03:52:54 Actually 03:52:57 In a more normal forth 03:53:00 That would look like 03:53:37 : bsy 1f7 p@ 80 and if recurse then ; <--- but that would run out of return stack space :D 03:54:07 : bsy begin 1f7 p@ 80 and not until ; 03:54:12 Want it explained? :D 03:54:34 Forth 'functions' are called 'words'. 03:54:39 ah 03:54:41 okay... 03:54:53 A word definition is started with : (colon), and ended with ; (semicolon) 03:54:56 it's a little bit confusing for me :) 03:55:02 * Oscarian goes and has another look at it 03:55:09 Hehe 03:55:10 aah...okay 03:55:21 ; is like return in C. 03:55:56 so - read 20 sector 256 for rdy insw next drop ; - is all one word? 03:56:25 20 sector 256 for rdy insw next drop <-- that's what's in the word 03:56:31 read is the name of the word 03:56:34 ah 03:56:36 ; ends the word 03:57:46 so, is rdy ready? and insw insert word? 03:57:53 That's ColorForth, written by Chuck Moore (creator of forth), it's not like most forths. 03:58:05 insw is like the x86 asm instruction 03:58:09 Look at the page 03:58:12 ah 03:58:15 In the bottom he explains. 03:58:28 heh, i read it, then i forgot it ;) 03:58:39 (that's typical me ;) 03:58:45 :D 04:00:56 So.. does forth fit in your computer project? :) 04:01:11 yes, i'll definately have a look at it... 04:01:19 but i need to learn sooo much 04:01:21 btw, before you get a real computer to play with, we could write a system for an emulated machine. 04:01:22 :) 04:01:28 but as i said, i have plenty of time 04:01:33 hmm 04:01:37 that's a good idea 04:01:42 i'd like to play with emulators 04:01:52 For example, some of the guys in #osdev are writing fprem, with that we can emulate a z80 with lots of modern hardware :) 04:02:11 hmm 04:02:33 sounds intregueing (but well beyond what i'm capable of) 04:02:48 :) 04:02:54 what is the z80 used in, other than calculators? 04:03:01 I don't know anything about that CPU either. 04:03:04 A lot, I think. 04:03:11 I have a z80 computer. 04:03:20 maybe i should buy one =-/ 04:03:23 Hehe 04:03:28 Well, it's an old C128 :) 04:03:32 was it originally a dick smith computer? 04:03:35 ah 04:03:39 i have an old vic 20 04:03:44 Nice :) 04:03:49 6502? 04:03:58 it was given to use about 10 years ago...i've barely ever used it... 04:04:03 no idea... 04:04:05 =-/ 04:04:13 i pulled it apart one time about 3 years ago... 04:04:20 Hehe 04:04:31 I guess you've used computers hell of a lot longer than I have :) 04:04:36 well... 04:04:44 Write my first BASIC program in '97, heh.. 04:04:51 wrote* 04:05:00 i started out using my high school's computers when i was in year 8, in 1985... 04:05:05 lol 04:05:10 That's before I was born 04:05:13 but, i've never really had a chance to get my teeth stuck into them... 04:05:15 haha ;) 04:05:32 now that i have my own pc with linux on it, i want to get into more stuff... 04:05:55 :) 04:06:01 it's a pity i missed out on 'the revolution', but my family never had enough money to get a pc for my personal use when i was a kid... 04:06:04 I'd like to get into coding other machines. 04:06:10 Niether did mine. 04:06:16 now i'm too addicted to the 'net and irc to get much useful stuff done ;) 04:06:24 Haha, same here. 04:06:31 But I can get useful stuff done still. 04:06:35 yeah, that's why i got the amiga...so i could learn some motorolla stuff 04:06:56 Don't have much programming software for my Amiga. 04:07:09 But I do have 64forth for the C128 :)) 04:07:17 hmm... 04:07:52 the vic-20 we got only came with games... 04:08:04 :-/ 04:08:08 where are mainly ROM's 04:08:08 And BASIC? :) 04:08:26 i think it's got basic...it should have, since it's built in isn't it? 04:08:31 * Oscarian doesn't know that... 04:08:33 Yeah, think so. 04:08:34 =-/ 04:08:37 Hehe 04:08:44 Hmm 04:08:45 * Oscarian ponders pulling it out tomorrow and having a closer look at it 04:08:49 I need another platform to get into. 04:08:55 Cool :) 04:08:58 powerpc? :) 04:09:04 Uhm.. 04:09:06 powerpc's seem cool 04:09:15 I'd prefer something smaller .) 04:09:18 ah 04:10:13 i'm thinking of getting some chips from my local electronics stores and learning how to program with them... 04:10:35 eg: dick smith have one called the pic, which only has 35 instructions 04:11:54 16f84a? 04:12:49 I have one of those. 04:12:54 not sure sorry... 04:12:55 ah... 04:13:01 Think I burnt it with my home-made programmer :/ 04:13:07 aah 04:13:14 Anyway, I have their manual in my bookshelf :) 04:13:32 a chip like that would make a useful controller wouldn't it? 04:13:41 What kind of controller? 04:14:26 drive controller or somesuch thing 04:15:34 Hmm.. 04:15:48 It doesn't have that many I/O ports though :/ 04:15:58 But I guess you could use it for something like that. 04:23:14 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@adsl-25-74.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 04:23:21 Hi. 04:24:36 --- quit: davidw (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: davidw_!~davidw@adsl-25-74.38-151.net24.it))) 04:24:40 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 04:26:04 * Oscarian is away: making a phone call 04:31:34 * Oscarian is away: Frazzled, I'm sure 04:32:26 * Oscarian is away: watching tv! 04:51:54 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 05:21:38 * Oscarian is away: sleep time! 06:44:02 --- join: XeF4 (~XeF4@dsl-XIV-08.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 06:45:15 Hello XeF4. 06:45:25 hello 06:47:38 * XeF4 has a weird temptation to write a bootsector colorforth 06:47:46 uhm 06:47:48 :) 06:47:55 if chuck can't do it.... good luch 06:48:05 How big is colorforth? 06:48:16 who says chuck can't do it? chuck has better things to do with his time. 06:48:37 Hehe 06:48:40 And you haven't? 06:49:14 rob: 2KB + editor + blocks + video drivers == ~60KB 06:50:47 Well... I meant the base forth system... 2KB? 06:51:22 hard to say, probably about 2KB for everything really critical except svga 06:52:06 Okay. 06:52:11 That's quite OK anyway. 06:52:16 hi 06:52:20 Hey onetom! 06:52:35 XeF4: Compare to Windows 2k ;) 06:52:44 lol 06:53:17 Windows is down to 2k? I'll install it immediately 06:54:12 Bah... 06:54:36 were there any precedent that some1 participated in the 4k compo w an OS? ;) 06:54:42 Install the command "sed s/k/000/" in your head. 07:14:34 --- nick: mur -> murBBL 07:23:18 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:23:18 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 07:25:38 sif: see + 07:25:39 XeF4: Word not found: see 07:26:46 sif: : foo .s ; 07:26:47 XeF4: 07:26:52 sif: foo 07:26:53 XeF4: Word not found: foo 07:34:24 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 07:41:27 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m133.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 07:46:18 --- nick: murBBL -> mur 07:52:09 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 08:33:18 TYLER HAMILTON wins the time trial at the Giro d'Italia !!! woohooo 08:34:53 --- join: miket2 (Mike@62.60.66.23) joined #forth 08:34:57 :) 08:39:56 hello 08:40:54 --- part: miket2 left #forth 08:46:14 helo 09:15:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:16:09 hi rob 09:16:13 Hi :) 09:16:14 beat you to it :) 09:16:21 Huh? 09:16:35 nevermind 09:16:42 :) 09:16:45 * rob_ert leaves,. 09:16:50 Bye tathi ;) 09:17:31 later then :) 09:18:12 later robbiue 09:22:49 --- quit: tathi (Remote closed the connection) 09:51:31 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m133.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 10:13:04 is forth a functional language? 10:13:15 hhehe 10:43:09 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 10:50:03 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 10:52:21 well... 10:52:32 is forth a functional language? 10:53:16 I have no idea :D 11:26:35 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m133.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 11:30:01 oy 11:30:53 hi 11:32:32 you are in python as well! 11:35:36 oh 11:35:40 thanks for telling me 11:36:16 I just noticed it ... 11:38:53 Etaoin: what do you use forth for? 11:39:24 GilbertBSD: nothing 11:39:44 ah what do you use then? 11:40:30 anyone interested in joining my voyage to collect 1000 so free webspace providers to db? :D 11:40:48 huh? 11:40:51 write a script man. 11:40:54 hmm, 1000 of them 11:40:55 a forth script 11:41:25 that sounds like a pretty cool idea mur...how many do you have atm? 11:41:32 GilbertBSD: I don't really do too much programming right now 11:43:12 ah I see. 11:43:16 Oscarian pages? 11:43:21 or ppl? 11:43:29 0 both :D 11:43:34 but i have soo many pages wit links 11:43:37 that's where i got the idea 11:43:46 i'm installing sql software 11:43:52 ah 11:44:04 i guess 300 pages at links 11:47:22 --- quit: GilbertBSD (Remote closed the connection) 12:19:02 --- quit: mur ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.") 12:24:36 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 12:43:58 --- join: tmcm (~sdjuenv@enkum.stalphonsos.com) joined #forth 12:45:27 Hey. 12:47:54 Oscarian 12:47:58 i setted up db 12:50:33 set 12:50:34 :P 12:58:34 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 13:56:37 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 13:57:14 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 14:04:03 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust242.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 14:04:30 wow new ppl 14:04:32 hi Oscarian 14:06:57 I440r 14:07:05 hi 14:07:05 wish to help me with massive job 14:07:11 i'll gather free hosting database :) 14:07:15 so far i guess i have about 300 14:07:19 to be entered :P 14:07:19 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:07:27 hehe i used to do free hosting heh 14:07:34 ? 14:07:54 but i dont think many people would like free web space/shell accounts on a server thats connected to the worlds crappiest dial in heh 14:08:06 i used to give people free web pages and shell accounts 14:08:08 and email 14:09:11 i found 2 quite nice 14:09:17 one with unlimited access 14:09:20 and mysql 14:09:21 php 14:09:22 etc 14:09:25 and another about the same 14:09:29 though with 500 mb 14:09:31 i guess 14:09:33 all the same 14:09:50 but the latter didn't had server running on url 14:09:56 and another was yet again full 14:09:57 :P 14:10:07 host.sk is first 14:24:40 hmmm we need ppl like wil baden in here :) 14:28:29 hmm 14:28:41 what else do i need in database for free web hosting list than: name, url, uptodate(bit), prepared(bit; if the data have been corrected and finished), freewebspace(int), features (such as "mysql, php") 14:28:49 fields in table, that is 14:29:13 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m178.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 14:29:56 * davidw goes to sleep 14:31:19 how about a rating 14:31:29 marks out of 10 sort of thing 14:31:50 statistics on the site - number of current users, bandwidth, what restrictions exist.... 14:33:41 uh 14:33:48 list what ever you find 14:33:54 added description 14:34:03 stabilityrating 14:34:07 speedrating(?) 14:34:10 hm.. adding it 14:34:30 bandwidth doesnt really matter 14:34:32 to users 14:34:40 or currect users amount 14:35:25 invent some more.. 14:38:13 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 14:38:33 oy Fare 14:41:30 hi fare 14:41:57 i just ported peter midnights towers of hanoi code to isforth (very easy port) 14:42:13 problem is - if i compile it then empty the next compile of anything segfaults 14:42:21 methunkes i got a bug in forget/empty 14:43:29 but i gotta find an itterative solution to the puzzle now 14:52:43 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:01:23 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 15:15:01 re 15:15:28 re 15:15:29 gn 15:15:44 --- quit: mur ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.") 15:16:02 * kc5tja decided to play with subroutine threading with inlined primitives for FS/Forth. The compiler is a lot easier to write. 15:16:14 s/lot/little/ 15:20:16 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 15:47:32 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear") 16:14:40 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust242.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 16:20:33 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 16:22:08 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login35.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 16:22:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 16:23:45 re I440r 16:23:46 re tcn 16:23:54 hi dood 16:24:59 what should i do. modify my 8051 disassembler to disassemble sfr's etc as their symbolic name, code an itterative towers of hanoi to go with the port of peter midnights recursive program or fix some known bugs in the kernel 16:25:32 thefox isn't going to be pleased with my latest post to comp.lang.forth re: Forth Databases. :) 16:25:48 what'd you say, in a nutshell? 16:26:15 kc5 heh 16:28:31 That he's full of it. :) 16:28:41 That's the nutshell. 16:29:29 I attempted to prove how using the erroneously called C-style structures isn't any slower than Chuck's technique when using a combination of good engineering sense and efficient tools. 16:30:33 He also claims that he and Chuck have outlined their method of doing this, but I haven't seen it just yet. 16:30:53 brb 16:31:17 He also makes the claim that the 2-3x slowdown that C-style structures produce leads to 100x slower programs (this is also false; they'll lead to 2-3x slower programs). 16:31:50 Hence Chuck may employ better algorithms, which is widely known to produce well over 10x to 20x performance enhancements, which stack with other enhancements. 16:32:12 But, frankly, in my code, I've *never* had a need to optimize out structure access overhead. 16:32:22 I've always attacked the algorithms first. 16:33:42 thats the only thing ANYONE should ever optimize 16:33:48 optimizing code is bogus 16:33:54 ok... its fun sometimes :) 16:34:01 but its realy a pointless exercise heh 16:34:05 No, it's not. 16:34:10 When you need to do it, you need to do it. 16:34:22 But nobody should do it unless they really need to. 16:34:32 correct 16:34:46 When I write my circuit simulator, I will optimize it for the Athlon, because that's what I have (sorry Intel!). 16:34:58 I have *no* intentions of waiting days for my simulations of circuits to complete. 16:35:04 Hours, yes. Days, no. 16:35:21 rite 16:35:39 but optimizing the code is the last thing you do 16:35:45 right after optimizing the algorithms 16:36:01 Actually, right after optimizing data stucture design. 16:36:16 ya. that too heh 16:36:18 Algorithms is first, data structure is next, and cycle counting is last. 16:36:32 if you dont represent your data in a sane manner your going to be wassting alot of time :) 16:36:34 AND memory heh 16:36:57 sometimes i might flip 1 and 2 there 16:37:04 Right; for a quick one off application, optimization is futile. 16:37:12 because 1 could be dependant on 2 16:37:41 optimizing code does have one application tho. its a learning experience 16:38:17 --- join: tcn2 (tcn@tc2-login38.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 16:49:53 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:06:19 --- quit: Fracta| (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:14:33 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-154.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 17:14:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 17:14:39 hiya all 17:14:44 hey 17:14:51 hiya tcn2 17:15:05 tbw !!! :) 17:15:23 hiya I440r!!! how's life going? 17:16:05 not too bad :) 17:16:19 :) 17:16:22 i ported peter midnights towers of hanoi to isforth heh 17:16:30 now im gona do an itterative solution 17:16:45 but i wanna make my 8051 disassembler disassemble SFR's symbolically 17:17:04 that puzzle has a nifty iterative approach :) 17:17:30 based on parity :) 17:17:48 the parity of the most recently moved disk tells you which disk to move next :) 17:18:12 by the way, I recently printed out your 8051 disassembler code and read it in detail...and saw one or goto "statement" there...*blink* goto is generally not recommended! 17:18:14 i found a site dedicated to itterative solutions :) 17:18:37 goto isnt evil 17:18:43 abuse of goto is 17:18:50 goto in forth is like changing all 17:18:52 call foo 17:18:52 ret 17:18:54 into 17:18:57 jmp foo 17:19:08 smaller, faster, less return stack bash 17:19:16 ive also fixed some bugs in the code... 17:19:46 and i replaced a few "special case" code blocks with table generated versions like the others 17:20:26 hmm...wasn't aware of this "parity" angle...I know the algorithm: "Move the smallest disk to the next stick (in cycle, e.g. from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3, from 3 to 1), then move the other disk (there is always only one such disk) to another stiick, and repeat this step" 17:21:24 err - smallest one always goes 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 1 ? 17:21:37 * TheBlueWizard has to answer Mother Nature's call 17:21:37 be back soon 17:27:30 Sometimes tail-call optimization can get you into trouble though, especially when using back-tracking. 17:27:42 Thus, I generally do not like tail-call optimization. 17:28:15 call/ret is just dumb i htink 17:28:31 But it's very important because it does leave critical information on the return stack. 17:28:50 hi everyone, I was away, sorry if i missed something 17:28:54 If the word being compiled doesn't use backtracking, that's fine. 17:29:07 But if it does, that tail call optimization had better not happen, or else it will crash the system. 17:30:02 backtracking ? 17:30:34 isforth is non optimizing 17:30:43 and will probably remain non optimizing :) 17:31:37 back 17:31:44 --- quit: tcn2 ("Leaving") 17:31:51 Backtracking is hard to explain. It employs continuations 17:32:07