00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.22 00:38:37 --- join: davidw (~davidw@151.38.101.42) joined #forth 01:49:29 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 02:29:40 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 02:30:56 Hoi, Speuler! 02:31:00 Hur går det? 02:32:10 god dag the_rob 02:32:16 god 02:32:23 bra* 02:32:31 en hur har det met jouw ? 02:32:43 holy shit... that scared me 02:32:46 Nice mix of languages :) 02:32:52 davidw: ? :) 02:32:55 some guy just showed up outside my window 02:33:00 Speuler: goed ook. 02:33:02 Haha 02:33:02 the thing is I'm on the 2nd story 02:33:11 da's leuk om te horen 02:33:14 Second story? 02:33:18 he's standing on the back of a truck... 02:33:23 Haha 02:33:29 not the ground floor, but the next one 02:33:34 davidw: Got a gun? :) 02:34:00 no, he's working on the building, but.. I saw this head and shoulders moving around 02:34:07 it surprised me 02:34:52 Oh 02:34:53 Hehe 02:35:10 Give him a cookie :) 02:35:12 --- join: Jukka (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 02:35:44 Hej Jukka. 02:35:52 Ammmuuuuuuu! 02:36:04 (Stupid finnish cows... bleh) 02:37:10 murr 02:37:32 'morning mur 02:37:38 mur mur 02:37:42 hey ey 02:49:05 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@adsl-91-109.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 02:54:00 rob_ert: what is "forskare 'upptaeckte' magnetiska monopoler" ? 02:54:15 ... discovered magnetic monopoles ? 02:57:06 magnetiska monopoler, dessa besynnerliga partiklar som kan ha skapats i de foersta heta oegenblicken av big bang, universums foedelse, tycks verkligen finnas. 02:57:23 (from "dagens nyheter" 02:57:24 ) 02:57:37 sounds interesting 02:57:44 but i don't quite understand 02:58:18 dessa besynnerliga = these special/particular ? 02:58:54 foersta heta ogenblicken = first hot moments ? 02:59:23 verkligen = real ? 02:59:26 Hehe 02:59:34 verkligen = really 02:59:49 dessa besynnerliga = these strange 02:59:59 forskare = scientists 03:00:35 Good Speuler ;) 03:01:13 skapats ? 03:02:02 been created 03:03:02 tycks ? 03:03:08 finnas ? 03:03:38 foedelse ? 03:04:25 skapa = create 03:04:36 tycks = now: is considered 03:04:40 --- quit: davidw_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:04:48 födelse = birth 03:04:58 finnas = exists maybe here 03:05:21 oink rob_ert 03:05:21 ah 03:05:22 others 03:05:24 heyhey 03:05:38 Yeah, finnas = exist 03:06:09 Jukka: :D 03:06:34 oh, you people are so good understanding those weird languages 03:06:35 you were so slow, rob_ert :) 03:06:42 Speuler agreed 03:06:43 I'm coding forth ;) 03:06:45 * Speuler envies you 03:06:52 Bah... Swedish is the normal language. 03:06:53 .. weird langauges indeed :) 03:06:57 it's not 03:06:59 All others are weird. 03:07:02 :) 03:07:09 Except maybe english, which is just boring. 03:07:24 english is über weird! 03:07:28 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:07:48 english lacks logical grammar, own words and pronounciation rules 03:09:28 So? 03:09:30 ;) 03:09:50 Finnish seems to have a little bit too much of the grammar. 03:09:53 and there's no create does> 03:09:54 (Like german...) 03:22:45 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-ull-106-108.42-151.net24.it) joined #forth 03:23:11 fucking connection 03:26:15 davidw: shouldn't you keep your sexual preferences for yourself ? 03:30:51 :)) 03:31:19 finnish has logical grammar 03:31:55 and yes, maybe there are many ways words are inflected, but only word "outlook" matters, not its gender or other thing you hsoudl know 03:32:02 you can see how it's inflected from the word 03:32:14 and all that makes finnish very expressful language 03:32:22 expressable? 03:32:33 expressive 03:37:11 Jukka: hey, what does 'cazomerda' or something similar mean in finnish? 03:37:32 uhh 03:37:38 what does it mean in english? 03:37:38 :) 03:37:43 'kazo merda' ? 03:37:48 it doesn't mean anything in english 03:38:01 what is it ? 03:38:17 i cant tell finnish word unless i know what it is 03:38:36 look at the sea, or something like that 03:39:27 what language is it ? 03:39:36 finnish is what I'm asking about 03:40:39 aargh! 03:40:39 :) 03:40:49 but i shoudl know what it is before i can give word 03:41:18 "look at the sea" 03:42:11 oh 03:42:14 katso mereen 03:42:53 aha, the truth comes out 03:43:01 i didn't understood what you meant 03:43:17 finnish doesnt use c, z, x .. btw :) 03:43:47 does mereen have other forms? 03:43:57 meri is the word sea 03:44:03 mereen = into sea 03:44:12 to sea 03:44:29 no, there are not likely no 03:44:52 "cazzo" in italian is a vulgar word - which means 'dick' 03:45:16 but we dont use c or z 03:45:25 but the sound is the same 03:45:33 maybe 03:45:48 like in italian, when you clink glasses to toast someone, you say "cin-cin" 03:45:54 which is a bad word in japanese 03:46:39 ok 03:47:12 anyway... I'm bored this morning 03:47:17 I should have gone for a bike ride 04:01:32 davidw: read ultratechnology.com articles! 04:02:04 davidw: if havent done it yet. its always refreshing 04:18:42 for instance? 04:19:27 http://ultratechnology.com/forth.htm 04:19:44 its the most basic article, ithink 04:20:04 tho, personally i havent read too much of them yet 04:20:28 just the dispelling the user illusion 04:21:40 which illusion? 04:21:42 and Machine Forth Tutorial by Jeff Fox 04:22:00 :)) good question --> read the article 04:24:37 So the user has the illusion that he is dealing with the software 04:24:44 when really he is dealing with the hardware. 04:24:56 -- chuck moore 04:25:34 I just don't understand chuck 04:26:20 --- quit: Jukka ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.") 04:26:35 I mean... sure, at some level, it's all hardware, but... 04:28:11 but... read the article 04:28:13 Z 04:28:26 start w that forth.htm 04:28:41 it must b the foundation i think 04:29:59 davidw: i also hardly understand chuck, but i feel strongly that he is right 04:30:28 so we should definitely start 2 build some Forth"OS" like thing 04:30:49 and check his theory wheather it is small 04:30:58 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:30:59 fast & productive 04:31:31 I don't think he's right 04:31:41 at least not if you take what he says at face value 04:32:28 "he says at face value" ??? 04:32:35 sorry, i cant segment it 04:32:39 hrm.... 04:32:48 would u rephrase it? 04:32:57 If what he says is really what he means 04:33:06 ahh 04:33:09 the obvious meaning 04:33:15 maybe he's thinking something else... 04:33:23 sure 04:33:28 thats undoubtable 04:33:31 "at face value" means the 'obvious meaning' or obvious value 04:33:42 like that quote about intereacting with the hardware 04:33:49 eg, when he talks about 1000x speed 04:33:55 and 1K sized app 04:34:15 I mean, no one gives a shit about assembling some ethernet packets - they want to send an irc message 04:34:20 its obviously not true for all cases 04:34:25 in that case, you really are interacting with the software 04:34:35 which acts as a broker for the hardware 04:35:20 sure 04:36:07 he means: programmers shouldnt create so complex abstraction what r illusions actually 04:36:32 tho, there is a need for some illusion 04:36:59 but keepin this illusion @ a minimal could help a lot 04:37:20 no1 really knows it how 2 achieve this 04:37:31 but some of us should think about it 04:37:46 deeper & should try it 04:37:52 2 implement 04:38:04 *try implementing it 04:39:34 I don't know... I mean, in a multi-user, multi-tasking, networked operating system... there are a lot of layers for a good reason 04:42:50 a faint idea: softwares r like fractals, so a programmer cant avoid learning algorithms & always use only libraries... 04:43:42 of course 04:44:05 tho, OO encourages such a "style" 04:44:11 not really 04:44:20 it give algorithm skeletons 2 programmers 04:44:44 so they can just substitute any datastructure into them 04:45:11 read the book 'Design Patterns' sometime 04:45:33 :) 04:45:47 ive found a reference 2 it 04:46:06 in that lisp article some1 showed 2days b4 04:46:40 (that was me) 04:46:58 i was not sure about it :) 04:48:11 could u give me a short & concise explanation about design patterns? 04:49:03 it tells you a lot of ways to do things... methods/patterns that have been created over time to deal with certain situations 04:49:06 not quite algorithms 04:49:13 ican recall from the article: lisp has 16 of the 23 design patterns hidden 04:49:24 yeah, lisp is very flexible 04:49:38 k,go on plz 04:50:18 well, he says it better in the article than I can say:-) 04:50:24 I've never used lisp for anything real 04:51:13 nor c++ or java, for that matter 04:51:57 davidw: what lang do u use then? 04:55:43 C and Tcl, primarily 04:56:20 thats nice & effective 04:56:31 what about tk? 04:56:51 tk is a graphical toolkit for tcl 04:56:57 I use it when I need to make something graphical 04:57:33 i know what it is 04:57:50 iwas just cuirous wheather u write graphical apps too 05:11:39 not often 06:08:22 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 06:20:01 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:26:29 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:28:27 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52109.vnet.hu) joined #forth 06:41:49 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 06:47:22 Hey folks. 07:29:41 --- quit: Etaoin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:40:36 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@nat-ch0.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:40:48 hi all 07:41:22 hi sergpeng 07:42:15 later 07:42:25 ??? 07:42:36 * Speuler is leaving now 07:42:56 "see you later" abbreviated 07:43:15 c u l8r .. haha 07:47:44 wadda we told abt last time...? 07:51:48 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:56:03 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:56:08 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 07:58:02 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52109.vnet.hu) joined #forth 07:58:04 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:59:19 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52109.vnet.hu) joined #forth 08:12:08 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 08:19:21 --- join: kallu (~chatzilla@203.192.206.98) joined #forth 08:38:01 --- join: tmcm (~sdjuenv@enkum.stalphonsos.com) joined #forth 08:55:07 how do you exit a loop, like 'break' in C/ 08:58:11 --- join: forth_bert (~forthbot@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 08:58:28 Hey, I'm talking from my Forth IRC client ;) 08:58:57 How many of you do that? ;-) 08:59:27 --- quit: forth_bert (Client Quit) 09:07:41 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust48.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:09:07 hrm, so... let's try again - a loop with more than one exit - how? 09:09:31 i.e. while (1) if .... break; if ..... break; ........ 09:09:42 : foo 10 0 do blah blah if undo exit then blah blah loop blah ; 09:09:55 exit exits the whole word 09:10:56 : foo 10 0 do blah if leave then blah loop ; 09:11:35 leave only works with do loops tho 09:11:44 yep 09:12:45 : foo begin blah if blah blah again blah blah then ; 09:12:51 but THAT is very bad form :) 09:13:15 er no the above is b0rked 09:13:41 : foo begin if [ swap ] again then ; 09:15:36 yuck 09:15:39 why can't it be more free form 09:16:10 heh 09:16:14 An international team set a new record for Internet performance by 09:16:14 transferring the equivalent of an entire compact disc's contents 09:16:14 across more than 7608 miles (12,272 km) of network in 13 seconds. The 09:16:14 rate of 401 megabits per second achieved in transferring 625 megabytes 09:16:14 of data from Fairbanks, Alaska to Amsterdam in the Netherlands is over 09:16:15 8000 times greater than the fastest dial-up modem. 09:16:19 * I440r is gona go cry now 09:16:52 they then spent the rest of the afternoon looking at the dirty pictures they downloaded 09:17:14 The record-setting team consisted of the University of Alaska at 09:17:14 Fairbanks; the Faculty of Science of the University of Amsterdam and 09:17:14 SURFnet, the national computer network for higher education and 09:17:14 research in the Netherlands. On both ends standard PC-like hardware 09:17:14 running Debian GNU/Linux was used. 09:17:14 lol 09:17:28 go debian! 09:17:32 :) 09:17:52 With an internet connection of this size transferring all six CDs of 09:17:53 Woody from Fairbanks to Amsterdam would only require 78 seconds. 09:17:53 We're in need of faster CD burners, it would seem. 09:24:04 davidw: you Do of corse know that "more than one exit point from a function" is BAD 09:24:08 same goes for loops 09:24:13 --- join: forth_bert (~forthbot@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 09:24:28 lol 09:24:43 Hey... I'm talking from my TelNet client in IsForth :) 09:25:12 Cool, aye? ;) 09:25:38 well... I'm going out.... bye. 09:25:43 --- quit: forth_bert (Client Quit) 09:26:33 forthbert cool! 09:31:22 robert now i gotta get that dns query code working :P 09:36:18 brb job hunting 09:42:51 why the FUCK are they calling web scripteres FUCKING SOFTWARE ENGINEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 09:55:44 what kind of web 'scripting'? 09:56:43 cool... linux for playstation 09:56:48 maybe I'll buy one.... 10:02:48 --- quit: kallu (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:26:42 so, ficl + ecos 10:26:47 what shall I call it? 10:26:55 it currently fits in 170K 10:27:09 although there are roughly 0 drivers 10:28:30 roughly ? 10:28:32 lol 10:29:00 I haven't worked at all to make it small, though 10:29:08 I wonder how much of that is the forth itself 10:29:38 -rw-rw-r-- 1 davidw davidw 107250 May 22 19:12 libficl.a 10:29:44 a little more than half 10:29:45 not bad 10:29:48 what is ficl btw ? :) 10:29:54 ficl.sourceforge.net 10:33:57 hrm 10:34:03 it would be convenient if I could save stuff with it 10:34:33 include a block editor and a way of accessing the disk 10:34:33 hrm 10:34:33 hrm hrm hrm 10:37:57 --- join: tom_ (tom@adsl52132.vnet.hu) joined #forth 10:38:48 hi 10:39:28 * tom_ just tests convenient startup of the irc client 10:40:06 maybe I could build something into the C... yeah... hrm 10:40:14 but this irc config jungle is terribly bloated :( 10:41:06 now i feel a lil bit what chuck talks about... 10:41:24 which irc client 10:44:09 I440r: ithink, it doesnt matter 10:44:24 all the usual 1s r quirky 10:45:37 bx is also under documented, eg 10:47:23 woohoo 10:47:24 here we go... 10:47:31 we can fuck around with the memory 10:47:38 ? 10:47:45 bx is very badly written 10:47:46 --- nick: tom_ -> onetom_ 10:47:54 bitchx is the biggest pile of crap ive ever seen 10:48:18 it sometimes has difficiulty logging in and while its trying it LOCKS the keyboard 10:48:30 you cant type 10:49:12 ive seen it connect and fail to unlock the keyboard too 10:52:58 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 10:55:28 aha, c 10:57:47 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-8.sat.net) joined #forth 10:58:16 re onetom_ 10:59:22 hi kc5 10:59:35 kc5tja: my net connection is close 2 unusable 11:00:10 I440r: Yes, I got telnet to work. 11:01:18 --- join: forth_bert (~forthbot@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 11:01:32 I have a word called 'telnet' :) 11:01:49 rob_ert: using which sockets code :) 11:02:01 I've added some temporary stuff to connectv to OPN though. 11:02:06 Mine ;) 11:02:12 I made some improvments. 11:02:16 rob_ert: lamer :P hehe 11:02:18 I'll make one socket and one IRC library. 11:02:19 ;)) 11:02:33 rob_ert: send me your code 11:02:39 --- quit: forth_bert (Client Quit) 11:02:42 Sure. 11:02:57 Want to wait until I clean it, or should I send the current code? 11:03:25 You could give me some hints so I can improve it maybe.. 11:03:46 rob_ert: these r I440rs words ;) 11:04:17 I really hate CVS for some reason. 11:04:48 onetom_: ? 11:05:46 rob_ert: hes the 1 who dont wants 2 release hacks 11:06:02 doesnt want -- ehh 11:06:35 Hehe 11:06:44 rob_ert: you can clean it up first if you want 11:07:07 Well... I'll send the current version. Already wrote a few notes to the mail. 11:07:19 i want to get that dns query code working too and have at least a COUPLE of example applications writtenn using the sockets stuff 11:07:50 then i can release it as part of isforth 11:07:50 --- join: XeF4 (zmjktu@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 11:07:57 you did ? 11:08:04 im not recieving anything 11:08:13 I just sent it. 11:08:18 Should be on its way. 11:08:22 bnf 11:08:29 b4n 11:08:31 --- quit: onetom_ ("ircII EPIC4pre2.508 -- Accept no limitations") 11:08:31 Oh 11:08:32 btw 11:08:37 I use my own structure code for it. 11:08:51 Want it too? (It's pretty clean and tested) 11:09:06 rob_ert: whats wrong with the isforth structure code 11:09:12 i would suggest using that... 11:09:26 let me explain something thats planned for isforth 11:09:34 0 const foo 11:09:52 will compile a word called FOO into the compiler vocab ulary 11:10:04 ALWAYS in the compiler voc 11:10:12 I440r: Remember I started coding forth like 2 days ago? I need to learn! Practise... 11:10:23 when you do something like.... 11:10:28 : blah ..... foo .... ; 11:10:41 the word FOO is state smart and will compile a LITERAL at that location 11:10:49 You've told me that 1000 times now :) 11:10:57 I keep forgetting it though ;) 11:10:58 when you turnkey the whole of the compiler vocabulary will be DELETED. code and headers 11:11:29 this makes the definition for ALL consts COMPILER only! 11:11:36 its like #define foo 6 in c 11:12:00 I see. 11:12:02 the memory allocated to remember the value of foo during the c compile is not part of the target program 11:12:18 it takes up no space in the target 11:12:24 How do I allocate/deallocate memory like with malloc()/free() ? 11:12:30 in isforth ? 11:12:31 --- part: kc5tja left #forth 11:12:34 you dont 11:12:39 Bleh... :) 11:12:41 not unless you realy need to 11:12:52 and unless you need a meg or more of memory - you dont need to 11:12:59 Oh... 11:13:02 i createed a 2 very useful words 11:13:05 But what if I want to deallocate? 11:13:13 erm you DONT deallocate! 11:13:34 not unless you allocated it 11:13:49 robert let me explain :) 11:14:00 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 11:14:32 forth uses 'here' to tell you where the end of your compiled code is. you can use here in a turnkeyd app to point to FREE memory 11:14:36 hey 11:15:01 you have all the memory from here to thead (top of header memory) for your applications use 11:15:18 if you want say a 50k buffer you can do 11:15:32 50000 mybuffer 11:15:35 you do that at run time 11:15:46 Hmm... so I can write a mini-mem-manager? 11:15:55 what that does is takes the top of head pointer, subtracts 50k from it. and returns the address 11:15:57 yes 11:16:28 however 11:16:36 you NEED to do that at run time 11:16:38 not compile time 11:16:45 : grab-buffer-at-run-time 11:16:49 deferes default 11:16:58 50000 my-buffer ; 11:17:05 do you know what deferes does ? 11:17:10 do you know what default is ? 11:17:21 thats defers not deferes :) 11:17:58 Hehe 11:17:58 you can also grab memory from the top of list space if you want. but top of head is better 11:18:07 there isnt realy HEAD space in a turnkeyd app 11:18:11 no headers exist 11:18:18 What does defer do then? 11:18:30 and if you grab all of head space and keep grabbing you eat head space 11:18:34 ok watch 11:18:37 def er foo 11:18:47 : blah .... ; ' blah is foo 11:19:01 when you execute foo you realy execute blah 11:19:21 you REPLACED what ever foo was defined to do with "do blah instead" 11:19:41 so foo does blah - nothing else 11:19:50 : futs defers foo .... ; 11:20:11 when you run foo now you get futs 11:20:30 Why? 11:20:31 futs first runs blah (which is what foo was previously defered to) and then does its own thing 11:20:45 Hmm... 11:20:53 its a chain! 11:20:58 that you can add yourself to 11:21:05 default is the initialization chain 11:21:08 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-71.dacor.net) joined #forth 11:21:14 Hi GilbertBSD. 11:21:17 atexit is the chain that gets executed when you say bye 11:21:21 hej rob_ert 11:21:23 Okay... 11:21:47 so you can make forth run malloc() or something when the turnkeyd app runs. and then run free() when you quit! 11:21:55 default does quite a bit 11:22:08 it initializes the terminal for forth 11:22:17 it checks the command line tail to see what was put there 11:22:24 it determins the size of the console 11:22:35 it turns on the status bar and does the HELLO sign on message thinge 11:23:02 Okay. 11:23:25 i think im going to delete the because and if you keep allocating forth the mysterious. 11:25:00 so if your irc client needs a buffer of say 512 bytes you have 2 choices 11:25:10 create some-buffer 512 allot 11:25:23 Yea.. that's what I'm doing atm. 11:25:34 do your turnkey and do a dump of the executable and somewhere in there your going to find a 512 byte block of empty memory 11:25:39 if you do 11:25:43 : grab-buffer 11:25:49 defers defaut 11:25:56 512 my-buffer ; 11:26:12 grab buffer will be executed when ./ircthingie is run 11:26:22 and the buffer will not be part of the executable!!!! 11:26:22 Nice :) 11:26:25 makes it smaller!!! 11:26:30 heh 11:26:31 Oh 11:27:06 isforth is sort of radical in that it grabs a whole meg of memory when it fires up hehe 11:27:13 :) 11:27:22 * rob_ert usually have about 1MB free ;) 11:27:24 64k aughta be ennuff for ANYONE!!! 11:27:24 has* 11:27:31 I440r: where did you say the nasm guy was on c.l ? 11:27:32 Isn't it? =) 11:27:46 NASM guy? 11:27:55 yes... I wanna try isforth. 11:28:02 gilbert comp.lang.asm - one of the developers hangs out there. if you ask a nasm q he will answer it maybe 11:28:03 GilbertBSD: Go try it :) 11:28:03 it is the last forth I might try before abandoning forth. 11:28:10 gilbert i know :( 11:28:15 GilbertBSD: Yuriz and eks here are NASM developers... 11:28:19 I440r: a meg is never the right amount for me. In my experience, most everything needs either <64KB or >16MB 11:28:27 where is here? 11:28:37 but it wont run in fbsd because i dont know what the correct syscall numbers are for sys break and sys mprotect :( 11:28:49 xef4 yes 11:28:53 I440r: where do i find those? 11:29:10 Uhm 11:29:11 xef4 isforth WILL have a malloc/free type set of words 11:29:15 here = OPN 11:29:16 it just doesnt yet 11:29:27 GilbertBSD: i dunno :( 11:29:30 in the man pages ? 11:29:40 i dont have fbsd 11:29:45 i know man 2 works in linux 11:29:58 also what linux calls sys break fbsd calls something else 11:30:05 rob_ert: I found him. i don't know if he is up or not. 11:30:45 xef4 when your compiling in isforth 500k = list space, 500k = head space. 11:31:06 xef4 THAT should be MORE than enough even for VERY large projects 11:32:13 robert i think your going to be the only person actually using isforth :( 11:32:26 within a month or 2 you should know everything i do about it :P 11:32:43 then when newbies come in here for helpp i can say "he's the expert -->" 11:32:44 hehe 11:36:07 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 11:36:37 hey Speuler 11:36:39 and others 11:36:58 g'day again 11:37:03 bongo! 11:37:28 Hah 11:37:33 Murr 11:37:35 aye 11:37:36 * rob_ert the IsForth expert... bah 11:37:41 hehe 11:37:50 rob_ert: soon... soon.... 11:37:53 I'm a bloody forth newbie! 11:38:04 rob_ert: your already discovering all my innermost isforth secretes :) 11:38:11 Hehe 11:38:23 btw, I implemented a high-level interface to the poll syscall. 11:38:47 rob_ert: something to create pollfd structures on the fly specifying flags etc ? 11:39:06 i was gona do that eventually - heh 11:39:13 Well... I actually set all flags on by default, and then you can mask the ones out you don't want. 11:39:16 just make the flag definitions consts not constants 11:39:23 Hehe 11:39:30 Haven't made flag definitions yet ;) 11:39:48 mostly people only want to know when theres data available on the socket/fd 11:39:49 I just mask with 0x38 for error, and 0x3 for 'data avaiable' 11:39:55 so setting all flags is incorrect 11:40:01 Well 11:40:04 Hmm 11:40:08 Why? 11:40:20 Always good to know if there's an error :) 11:40:25 actually, they want would probably want to know when there was an error too heh 11:41:19 Hmm... I'd need a word to convert a string to an integer... where can I find one? :) 11:41:34 number 11:41:45 How to use? 11:41:54 address-of-counted-string number not if ." dumbass" then 11:42:05 :-) 11:42:07 works in any base too :) 11:42:08 well 11:42:14 works in the CURRENT base 11:42:22 assume decimal tho 11:42:26 10 \ decimal 10 11:42:28 Does not work with boolean values (zero/nonzero) or is it just bitwise NOT? 11:42:32 $10 \ hex 10 11:42:41 :) 11:43:02 actually that should be 0= but not works too 11:43:12 Okay. good. 11:43:14 because number always returns a correct true or false 11:43:14 Thanks =) 11:43:22 Uhm 11:43:24 Another thing 11:43:30 Does it return 0 on error? 11:43:40 gforth: table bit 1 1 cells 8 * 0 [do] dup , 2* [loop] drop : untested_mask ( x -- maskedx ) [ 1 bit 2 bit or ] literal and ; 15 untested_mask . 11:43:55 ahem 11:43:57 sorry 11:44:07 Sir gforth is away =) 11:44:42 I440r: 11:44:51 numbers stack comment is... ( a1 --- n1 true | falst ) 11:45:07 are the intel 8086 books easy to find? 11:45:09 this means it either retuns n1 and a true flag or it retuns JUST the false flag 11:45:21 Oh, I see. 11:45:26 GilbertBSD: the 8086 book isnt always easy to find 11:45:33 library might have it. 11:45:57 but its the only book i recommend to beginners in x86 11:46:01 I did a search in .asm for best book and your name came up. 11:46:10 I recommend "programmera 80486" :) 11:46:32 no 11:47:20 thats going to be a 3 inch think book. 2 inches are going to be on the differences between masm and task. half an inch on bin/hex/oct and then you have a 1/4 inch on bullshit other books leaving about a 1/4 inch on asm coding 11:47:30 masm and tasm even 11:47:46 I440r: how big is the 8086 book? 11:47:53 Do you think its online somewhere? 11:47:54 about an inch thick 11:47:57 and who wrote it? 11:48:04 its an intel publication 11:48:07 let me go get it 11:48:09 hang on 11:48:25 >=i80386 are easy to find online 11:48:44 Why do you want 8086 and nothing else? 11:48:45 :) 11:48:56 rob_ert: I have to start from somewhere. 11:48:57 I 11:49:03 Hehe 11:49:06 am too dumb to learn forth so thats my answer. 11:49:11 osborne/mcgrwa-hill The 8086 book, includes 8088 11:49:18 isbn? 11:49:25 authors = russel rector and george alexy 11:49:44 iosbn 0-931988-29-2 11:49:51 erm isbn even 11:50:12 the ibm pc, inside out. book is not specific asm, but uses asm to demonstrate how to get access to misc aspects of pc hardware. a forth example is given in the book too 11:50:28 speuler cool! 11:50:42 ONE forth? 11:50:48 got it here, having a look ... 11:50:54 addison wesley 11:50:58 Is there any predefined word like : x dup c@ swap 1+ swap ; in IsForth, I440r ? 11:51:01 murray sargent III 11:51:06 richard l.shoemaker 11:51:14 old book though 11:51:14 err /string 11:51:30 fourth print, 1987 11:51:31 murr say serpent 11:51:33 serpent 11:51:33 Stack comment of that word, please :) 11:51:46 but /string doesnt do exactly what your looking for 11:52:07 the word /string is used to advance an address and decrease a count by the same ammount 11:52:19 chapter seven: interrupts: real-time, clock, typing ahead 11:52:22 Oh... 11:52:28 ( a1 n1 n2 --- a1+n2 n1-n2 ) 11:52:36 chapter 3: assembly lang programming 11:52:40 I440r: But does it have the word I want? 11:52:51 chapter 2: indroduction to assembly programming 11:53:05 robert try : x dup 1+ swap c@ ; 11:53:08 chapter 4: advanced assembly lang techniques 11:53:11 ( a1 -- a1+1 byte[a1] ) 11:53:20 I440r: Okie. 11:53:31 chapter 5: introduction to digital circuitry 11:53:40 rob_ert: sees that my version of x and his are identical right ? 11:53:46 in effect i mean 11:53:52 chapter 12: building your own interfaces 11:54:19 it's 8086 though 11:54:20 rob_ert: for that sort of thing one shouldnt have a standard word built in 11:54:47 :) 11:54:53 Might be useful though. 11:55:05 if it was i would code it :) 11:55:06 code x 11:55:11 push ebx 11:55:19 To have a standard name on it and so... 11:55:20 movzx bl, [ebx] 11:55:23 next end-code 11:55:30 inc ebx ? 11:55:37 oh yea oopts heh 11:55:38 lol 11:55:41 ;D 11:55:43 code x 11:55:46 mov eax, ebx 11:55:49 inc eax 11:55:52 push eax 11:55:59 movzx bl, [ebx] 11:56:02 next end-code 11:56:03 bleh 11:56:12 or maybe 11:56:15 inc ebx 11:56:17 push ebx 11:56:31 movzx bl, [ebx-1] 11:56:33 heh 11:56:36 reason i bought it was, it was the only book telling me back then about hercules graphics mode programming rather than cga/ega 11:56:41 movzx ebx... :)( 11:56:57 erm ya 11:57:01 lol 11:57:16 well i think i need another coffee- my brain is only half working today :P 11:57:21 Speuler: Hehe... I always associate Hercules with "before-I-was-born-gtaphics" :) 11:57:24 I440r: :D 11:57:29 graphics* 11:59:16 Hmm... if I'm inside a loop and want to exit the word, how do I do? 11:59:37 leave 11:59:38 --- join: miket2 (Mike@62.60.67.41) joined #forth 12:00:13 hi mike 12:00:21 Hello 12:00:26 mike2 == forth coder ? 12:00:38 amateur 12:00:53 :) 12:01:32 I440r: I can't find it on amazon. 12:01:47 wait 12:01:49 GilbertBSD: VERY out of print 12:01:55 Hi miket2 :) 12:02:11 I440r: if I'm inside a loop and want to exit the word, how do I do? 12:02:27 a do loop ? 12:02:39 Yeah. 12:02:41 you have to undo the do-loop then exit 12:02:52 : foo 10 0 do blah if undo exit then loop ; 12:02:58 http://aig.cs.man.ac.uk/gallery/images/LegibleCityBike.jpeg 12:03:04 Okay... one undo for each nested loop? 12:03:04 try finding another way to do the same loop tho.... 12:03:08 yes 12:03:20 the grey thing is a hercules 12:11:02 --- part: miket2 left #forth 12:23:43 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:27:54 Is there any way to have local variables? 12:27:59 Within the word, that is. 12:28:37 it is not the forth way to do things 12:29:02 local variables will NEVER be part of forth 12:29:04 EVER 12:29:05 GRR 12:29:20 they are an over complecation 12:29:23 but I saw that it can be done on some implementations with { a b } where a and b are poped off the stack 12:30:33 only with bullshit forths 12:30:44 read ans forths 12:30:59 have you guys seen or heard of gnuenterprise? 12:31:15 I think it is going to be one of pythons BIGGEST killer apps 12:31:26 what is 12:31:46 ? 12:31:54 www.gnuenterprise.org 12:32:56 I440r: :) 12:34:23 Forths killer app has always been Yet Another Implementation of Forth. YAIF 12:34:38 and _that_ is nicht gut. 12:37:29 What's that? 12:37:50 not good is my guess heh 12:37:57 grr 12:38:01 I do know that much german 12:38:07 I refered to YAFI 12:38:08 er 12:38:09 lol i dont :) 12:38:11 YAIF 12:38:15 Hehe 12:38:18 lol 12:38:38 * I440r doesnt know any natural languages. i struggle with english :P 12:38:57 YAFI is Yet Another Forth Implementation. 12:40:41 ... 12:40:46 ,,, 12:40:46 I440r: Haha :SD 12:41:03 unix was c's biggest killer app. 12:41:12 and isFOrth is nasm's killer app. 12:41:21 Bleh 12:41:32 Now we need a killer app for forth that is not YAFI 12:42:14 GilbertBSD: im sure there are plenty of other apps written with nasm of the size of isforth... 12:42:28 har har har . 12:42:35 I440r: I'm sure he was joking ;) 12:42:36 your nasm is so new freebsd doesn't have it. 12:42:51 * rob_ert uses 0.98.30 12:43:23 gilbert you can run isforth in bsd if you have the ability to run linux executables you know 12:43:50 I don't have a binary version. 12:44:18 want me to put it on my ftp for you to grab? 12:45:51 surey ... 12:45:56 just gimme the url after zat. 12:46:07 we should have done that a long time ago come to think of it... 12:47:03 ok 12:47:10 so get to work. 12:48:18 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 12:49:58 GilbertBSD 67.241.61.48 12:50:09 get kernel.com. put it in isforth dir 12:50:09 do 12:50:14 ./kernerl.com 12:50:17 fload isforth.f 12:50:21 then try run ./isforth 12:50:33 kernel.com is not dos is it? 12:51:01 Hehe 12:51:04 no 12:51:04 Npoe ;D 12:51:05 and how do I log in? 12:51:08 its a joke 12:51:10 anonymous 12:51:18 i call it kernel.com as a joke :) 12:51:58 goodness your server does not like me. 12:52:30 err it likes everyone 12:52:36 is it not allowing you to download ? 12:52:40 let me check perms on the file 12:53:03 I haven't logged in yet. 12:53:07 aha 12:53:15 anonymous foo@bar.com 12:54:00 btw, has thefox returned after 18.5? 12:56:16 ./kernel.com 12:56:16 ELF binary type "0" not known. 12:56:16 Abort 12:57:07 file kernel.com :) 12:57:56 kernel.com: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped 12:58:24 have you linux binary support installed? 12:59:09 linux 12:59:10 Linux driver already loaded 13:01:36 hum. killer forth app: good easily extensible realtime softsynth 13:01:51 softsynth? 13:01:57 synthesizer 13:02:17 what kind? 13:02:20 for sound cards? 13:02:39 a performance synth for soundcards, yes. 13:03:13 I thought writing peripheral card drivers in forth would be a good thing. 13:03:26 but I know nothing about that ... 13:03:54 that's not really a stand-alone app. 13:04:03 indeed. 13:04:23 but since forth is so close to the machine, I thought it might be a good idea. 13:05:00 when forth is the OS, it is the only sensible way. 13:05:33 but a forth OS is not forth coming thus far. 13:05:41 hmmm 13:05:43 a pun :D 13:06:27 there have been forth OSen for >30 years. 13:06:38 gilbert sorry - were you abel to get that file ? 13:06:45 si si. 13:06:54 ./kernel.com 13:07:00 ELF binary type "0" not known. 13:07:05 Abort 13:09:49 your bsd cant execute linux elfs ? 13:10:41 I thought it could. 13:10:48 I execute linux binaries all the time. 13:10:59 hey, are there any cheap DSPs with cheap programmer hardware that could dac 2MHz sample rates? 13:12:29 well that binary was generated by nasm 13:12:34 maybe nasm is b0rken 13:13:12 Well. 13:13:23 I think my forth affair is coming to an end. 13:13:44 Forth was recommended by some lisp programmers ... and the forth programmers recommended asm 13:13:49 Even though they deny it. 13:13:54 :) 13:14:02 so asm ... and then back to scheme and python. 13:14:05 Of course I recommend asm. 13:14:18 Isn't python...kind of high-level? 13:14:24 hehehe. 13:14:29 I really like python. 13:14:46 I should learn it some day 13:14:56 it is a pretty simple language. 13:14:56 Heard you can actually get things done in it. 13:15:15 yes indeed... it does not bother to get in your way. 13:16:45 er.. silly question -> external DAC. does anyone recommend a cheap DSP with cheap programmer hardware? 13:24:42 I440r: Now I've made a word to parse IP addresses ;) 13:25:52 robert i already HAVE one 13:25:55 o0hh 13:26:01 at run time hhe 13:29:51 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 13:30:08 hi forthers 13:30:34 have any of you read Petzold's 'CODE'? 13:31:12 dont know what is it 13:31:22 a Book. 13:31:41 one several trees conspired to create./ 13:44:28 I440r: Yes, runtime ;) 13:44:52 A new record for a delayed response by rob_ert 13:45:00 Congrats my man... you win. 13:45:19 But you'll have to help me with this thing about inputing things in one window and output them in another. 13:45:24 GilbertBSD: Bah... 13:45:26 bbl 13:52:27 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52139.vnet.hu) joined #forth 13:54:30 heh 13:54:42 robert err... window ? 13:54:52 --- nick: GilbertBSD -> R0zallin 13:55:07 gilbert i think he is narcoleptic :) 13:55:14 hahaha. 13:55:22 he is passing out ... poor kid. 13:55:41 thats what you get for drinking 90 jugs of coffee! 13:55:50 hi 13:56:05 onetom: you are the resident DSP expert, yes? 13:56:26 --- part: R0zallin left #forth 13:57:59 XeF4: :)) "DSP expert" 13:58:07 * I440r just had a fone call from his recruitor 13:58:14 maybe ill have a job soon! 13:58:15 maybe 13:58:23 XeF4: strong words 4 such a poor fella 13:58:54 its an 8051 job too :))) 13:59:31 good luck 4 the job 14:00:28 i440r: you know you could have overthrown the whole system several times over in the time you've waited for a "job" :) 14:01:36 oh XeF4 is hrer 14:01:39 moikka, XeF4 14:02:38 moikka. 14:03:04 xef4 overthrown what system ?? heh 14:03:09 ive not been WAITING for a job 14:03:13 ive been LOOKING for one 14:03:20 create own firm :) 14:05:49 create own world ; ) 14:12:50 create own forth to create the new world you want, a world of non complexity, helepd to arise by the revolution forth would help create ;p 14:14:04 CrowKiller: u read the thoughtful programming article, dont u? 14:15:22 --- join: Forth (~Forth@1Cust48.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 14:15:32 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=jeff+fox+cultist+killed&hl=fi&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&selm=3C089435.D538DBBF%40UltraTechnology.com&rnum=1 14:15:49 I would take anything Fox says with several boxes of salt. 14:16:15 ? 14:17:23 XeF4: ? 14:17:45 --- join: tom (~tom@adsl52139.vnet.hu) joined #forth 14:17:45 --- quit: tom (Dead socket) 14:17:46 I am a spiritual person who is simply not 14:17:46 capable of telling a lie, and would rather die 14:17:46 first, that I am also capable of chopping off 14:17:46 someone else's head without hesitation when 14:17:47 and if the time for that arrives 14:17:53 --Jeff Fox on comp.lang.forth 14:18:42 jeff fox is "thefox" in here :P 14:18:45 was here last nite 14:18:48 wow :)) 14:19:03 and author of the "thoughtful programming" article =P 14:19:12 2nd wow 14:19:19 yes 14:19:26 is there anything wrong w it??!??? 14:20:08 --- quit: CrowKiller (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:20:16 only that I don't see him backing up his claims with evidence 14:20:32 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 14:20:33 where are the apps with 0.1% the code? 14:20:40 XeF4: he has chopped crowkillers head ;) 14:21:15 :/ good question 14:21:33 most of the so-optimal stuff they do r commercial stuff 14:21:41 that must b the reason... 14:21:51 some of the reasons @ least 14:22:01 but next time we will ask him 14:22:43 anyway, he talks about 1% codesize, not 0.1% 14:23:00 Night all. 14:23:13 byebye 14:23:38 --- quit: rob_ert ("Nothing is real.") 14:24:15 "We spend most of our time simply explaining that the starting point and the Forth perspective and that our programs and our hardware match very well because the hardware is 1000x smaller and cheaper and lower power consumption and we only need about 1/1000 the code so it fits. " --http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth3.htm 14:24:18 he talks about 0.1% 14:24:28 anyone knows what domain is .ji ? 14:25:01 aha, that must b a typo :) 14:25:41 in all the other places he mentions only a 10^-2 factor 14:26:25 but if u believe only the 10th of those 14:26:55 mur: there're onky three countries starting with j. jamaica, jordan, japan. 14:26:59 or only a 10th of those factors r achiveable 14:27:04 it's nothing 14:27:06 sorry :D 14:27:07 in general 14:27:26 that would also b ..... 14:28:15 appreciable 14:28:27 did anyone have a look at "2 disk xwindow linux system" ? 14:28:51 i did 14:28:59 its ugly a lil bit :) 14:29:03 any good ? window manager included ? 14:29:16 but still amazing 14:29:24 oh, cant remember 14:29:39 anyway, there r many similar projects outthere 14:29:48 which 1 r we talkin about? 14:30:36 brb - /me afk 14:30:47 brb 14:30:53 time 2 reboot 14:30:53 --- quit: onetom ("ircII EPIC4pre2.508 -- Accept no limitations") 14:36:20 i seriously think a good forth is needed right now, here and now! lets battle complexity, non interoperability and innaccessibility to computing ressource programming! 14:39:18 are you writing one? 14:42:45 im trying to do so 14:42:57 im still in the phase of understanding what forth really is 14:43:33 like yesterday I learned that when a word isnt found the forth system is reset, its stack zeroed and ask for another starting word 14:44:21 im looking into colorforth from Chuck Moore and aha from Jeff Fox 14:44:27 bacn 14:44:29 erm 14:44:30 bacK 14:44:40 those are really great systems based on machineforth 14:45:28 forth is another language where everyone has to implement it their own way 14:46:10 davidw thats NOT a limitation in forth tho 14:46:41 forth is wyciwyg 14:46:45 what you code is what you get 14:47:08 hrm a new language called wyciwyg :) 14:49:16 thinking that forth is that way is pure non-sense: sure the definition of an operationnal forth is large but true performance and simplicity isnt 14:49:37 only one approach per kind of hardware is tluy possible 14:49:45 read: truly 14:50:31 the single best example is when trying to developp a forth on a system wich only have forth instructions 14:51:01 hevonpaskaa. the best approach depends on the application, esp. on processors like i386 14:51:11 aha and colorforth were born by thinking that way, that you cant do other stuff than forth stuff, so it keeps it very simple 14:52:24 hmmm to me the effort made into colorforth to reduce overhead is immense and should be taken into consideration into our future programming efforts, or at the very least into our discussions 14:53:08 aha is not very far behind, i dont know i have not understood it very well at the moment 14:53:34 Crow: eg.. in genetic programming it is useful to redefine words retroactively, even if that slows overall performance. 14:54:16 it doesnt slow overall performance if your system is well designed 14:54:20 and intended to do that 14:54:40 XeF4: is it? 14:55:21 in colorforth redefining a word is simply chnaging an entry in a table 14:55:25 not very difficult 14:55:33 and not mips hungry 14:56:07 Crow: but if colorforth generated optimized native code, you couldn't do that. 14:56:49 so system performance is slower than what it would be if you needn't to do that. 14:57:55 XeF4: have you done stack based GP? 14:58:31 david: as in GP with a stack machine or manipulating code on a stack? former but not the latter. 14:58:41 its generating optimized native code, at least to the greatest extent possible in a forth system 14:59:39 Crow: last I saw, it inlined primitives and compiled calls to subroutines. i.e. it is subroutine threaded. 15:00:15 that is far from the "greatest extent possible" 15:00:41 not far of the greatest extent possible into a forth system on a ia-32 hardware 15:00:48 afaik the only "optimization" it performs is tail-call elimination. 15:00:59 and drop dup elimination 15:01:30 XeF4: cool - I did some experimenting with GP as well, with a friend 15:01:33 drop dup can't be eliminated. 15:01:43 we actually squeezed a decent hashing algorithm out of it 15:01:57 davidw what hashing algo ? 15:01:58 well, for a certain bunch of words, at least;-) 15:02:04 I don't recall 15:02:11 im just using the one in fpc 15:02:31 (((first char *2) + second char) *2) + count 15:02:47 anded with #threads -1 and you have the thread to search 15:03:01 it can be changed to mov eax,[esi] 15:03:29 theyre eliminated in colorforth becausee its doing a move to top-move to stack operation 15:04:03 move 2nd stack item to top then move the top to 2nd stack item 15:04:20 thats optimization between primitives 15:04:30 that's not an elimination, that's a substitution. 15:05:06 When one macro ends with 'drop' and the next starts with 'dup' both may be eliminated 15:05:11 quoted right from the site 15:05:17 www.colorforth.com 15:05:19 ;p 15:05:38 eww... they found that girl that the congressman dissappeared 15:06:03 its a shame that people come here and dont know about colorforth, really! 15:06:12 I dont know much 15:06:39 but what I know cant be beaten in otehr forths, not a single one implementation is that clear and fast 15:06:47 where does it say that? 15:07:05 http://www.colorforth.com/install.htm 15:07:11 cnn 15:07:13 look when he talks about optimization 15:09:02 macro macro macro macro 15:09:56 I'm not sure if he means the macro may be eliminated or the ops may be eliminated. 15:10:24 the latter doesn't make much sense unless I'm missing some aspect of cf behaviour 15:11:32 and of course the macro can't be eliminated no matter what, so.. 15:11:37 dunno :) 15:12:35 the stack 15:12:40 is only a pointer in memory 15:12:41 what a fucked up world 15:12:44 so in each primitive 15:12:59 you have to move the stack pointer up or down by 4, sicne its a byte pointer 15:13:05 the stack is a pointer in memory plus eax 15:13:26 i know 15:13:29 which means that dup drop can be optimized to mov eax,[esi] ; not a complete elimination 15:13:31 its only a point of view lol 15:13:38 no 15:13:44 they can be eliminated in fact 15:13:46 er. drop dup. 15:13:55 typo 15:13:56 xef4 hehe 15:14:01 because if esi point to the second data stack item 15:14:09 and you do drop dup 15:14:14 you are in fcat making 15:14:45 lodsd;lea ESI, ESI-4; mov [ESI], EAX 15:15:22 lodsd 15:15:25 is in fact 15:15:35 mov eax, [esi];add esi, 4 15:15:38 so youre doing 15:15:51 drop dup in isfforthcould be coded as an inline mov ebx, [esp] 15:16:13 * davidw will believe in colorforth when he can send email with it 15:16:15 mov eax, [esi];lea esi, [esi+4];lea ESI, ESI-4; mov [ESI], EAX 15:16:59 doesnt it look like a little symmetric? 15:17:17 davidw: get your ass moving and write some code in it lol 15:17:30 i would do it but i dont understand it enough 15:17:35 to do the best code I could do 15:18:02 that much is apparent. 15:18:16 CrowKiller: I have a PPC machine 15:18:40 thats why its important 15:18:52 that colorforth be meta compilable in some way 15:18:57 Crow: consider: 1 2 drop dup .s 15:19:09 so that we can only port the primitive and some crucial routines and hop another system conquered ;p 15:19:13 note that the stack is indeed different afterward. 15:19:30 xef4 I know its counter intuitive 15:19:40 but look at it carefully on how its done 15:19:46 draw it 15:19:48 it's not counter-intuitive, it's logically wrong. 15:19:53 do something to understand lol 15:20:22 let say i have 2 at the esi pointer and 4 in eax 15:20:38 at the first step 15:20:52 eax = 2, esi = 2 15:21:17 second step eax = 2, esi = "dontcare" 15:21:28 esi = 6 15:21:43 eax = ?? 15:22:02 esi points to two then ;p 15:22:03 (after drop) 15:22:05 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52007.vnet.hu) joined #forth 15:22:16 ok ill start over 15:22:32 First step: eax=4, [esi] = 2 15:22:47 i meant initial stepo 15:22:53 haaaaaaaarg ill restart again ;p 15:23:04 Step 0: eax=4, [esi]=2 15:23:21 Step 1: eax = 2, [esi]=2 15:23:53 Step 2: eax =2 [esi]=dont care 15:24:06 Step 3: eax =2 [esi]=2 15:24:19 Step 4: eax =2 [esi]=2 15:24:49 for the sequence of instructions accomplished by dup drop in colorforth, defined by mov eax, [esi];lea esi, [esi+4];lea ESI, ESI-4; mov [ESI], EAX 15:25:10 * CrowKiller wonders if he can be clearer than that 15:25:18 now. do you see that the system state after drop dup is indeed different than it was before? 15:27:15 they can be eliminated because of some esoteric reason I'm in the impossibility to descrive then lol 15:27:39 read describe up there 15:30:51 ill take a dive in the source code then 15:30:54 brb 15:34:58 qdup: mov EDX, h 15:34:59 dec EDX 15:34:59 cmp list, EDX 15:34:59 jnz cdup 15:34:59 cmp byte ptr [EDX], 0adh 15:34:59 jnz cdup 15:35:01 mov h, EDX 15:35:03 ret 15:35:05 cdup: mov EDX, h 15:35:07 mov dword ptr [EDX], 89fc768dh 15:35:09 mov byte ptr [4+EDX], 06 15:35:11 add h, 5 15:35:11 but he specifies 'macro', so there is probably some magic in the edito 15:35:14 ret 15:35:38 qdup is "?dup" and start every primitive macro that do a dup on its beginning 15:35:59 aha. 15:36:20 what is 'h'? 15:36:34 a thing i should have asked chuck when he came by 15:36:52 I think it has to do with were the code is actually written in memory 15:37:05 a byte pointer 15:37:10 to the end of compiled code 15:37:31 0ADh is lodsd 15:37:50 so he looks one byte before and test if its a drop 15:38:10 i dont know what is the "list" variable though 15:38:34 maybe the fabled "pointer to last optimizavle instruction" 15:39:08 my typing is terrible, forgive me for hurting your brains so much lol 15:40:25 heres the nasm listing file portion for dup 15:40:26 267 Dup 15:40:26 268 00000094 8D76FC <1> lea ESi, [ESI-4] 15:40:26 269 00000097 8906 <1> mov [ESI], EAX 15:41:36 anyway im just starting to scrape the surface of colorforth I cant explain all that is happening lol 15:47:00 here in example the colorforth source for the "a" word 15:47:45 --- quit: mur (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:48:33 --- join: Jukka (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 15:48:33 redword(a) cyanword(?dup) greennumberhex(c28b) greenword(2,) greenword(;) 15:49:00 the "2," word means compile 2 bytes 15:49:54 so inbetween macros the forth stack can be left with eax in an unknown state becasue every macro compiles code by putting the bytes in eax and the doing a comma operation 15:50:11 1, 2, 3, or , 15:50:23 comma alone cmpiles 4 bytes 15:50:37 another mystery resolved lol 16:11:27 brb - goitta get off line - 16:11:31 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 16:11:32 --- quit: Forth (Remote closed the connection) 16:15:47 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 17:25:31 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust157.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 17:48:54 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login26.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 17:48:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 17:50:29 yo tcn 17:50:38 trying to implement forget :) 17:51:00 heh 17:51:01 i know why freebsd.1 is b0rked tho 17:51:22 its broken because i dont know what the syscall numbers are for the various syscalls :P 17:51:54 hahahaha 17:52:10 lol 17:53:16 rofl 17:53:32 --- quit: Jukka ("MURR! end of file reached. continuing filling logs some other time.") 17:54:27 so hows your coding ? 17:54:40 not tonight 18:05:33 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 18:12:49 --- join: thefox (fox@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 18:12:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thefox 18:13:30 hi 18:13:51 hello all 18:15:42 hi! 18:15:54 rather quiet 18:16:01 ya 18:16:06 gets taht way in here :) 18:16:26 gives me a chance to code sometimes :) 18:16:35 actually if i realy wanna code i gotta take the laptop upstairs 18:16:46 the other channels I'm in are rather quiet too 18:16:48 if im in the same room as the modem i gotta be online heh 18:17:15 i have a fonecall off a recruitor today about a possible embedded 8051 job 18:17:24 its in c but we cant have everything now can we 18:18:46 was thinking of breaking out the 8051 simulator i was writing and porting it to isforth 18:18:57 8051 is a snap to disassemble 18:19:28 and simulating the instructions isnt that hard - the only tricky part is generating the correct flags 18:20:51 oh - and the serial comms etc heh 18:21:48 I would try a 3 instructions "forth" (store fetch jump) on this one 18:22:56 ! @ and what and goto heh 18:22:57 hrm 18:23:11 very brainfuck like :) 18:27:08 very basic like 18:27:13 peek poke goto 18:27:18 hehe 18:27:22 but enables you to do whatever you want 18:27:30 with the system with a minimum amount of code ;p 18:27:43 if youre develooping a forth system from scratch 18:27:50 thats the best way to start IMHO 18:29:20 this last part of forget is tying my brain in knots heh 18:30:13 like the whole thing is only 20 ish lines of code 18:31:27 the minimal is serial-store and goto, or a combined version like the F21 serial network router, it DMAs a transfer and then interrupts the CPU. Then you load the serial-fetch using serial-store. 18:32:22 It can be a one word boot loader, but is it really a one word Forth? 18:32:37 heh 18:32:40 the serial strem is a "stack" of some kind ;p 18:32:46 read stream 18:33:01 in a microcontroller 18:33:31 to test in in system though its convenient to have a fetch, but you're right 18:33:39 only store and jmp are mandatory 18:34:01 a fetch is a store realy. maybe it should be mov and jmp ? 18:34:07 feetches and stores both being mov 18:35:36 oooh a new oxymoron - html == embedded applications!!!! 18:35:44 for minimum code, 2 instruction fit nicely in a binary system 18:35:50 html are great in embedded apps 18:35:56 youre the oxymoron ;p 18:36:01 let me show you an example 18:36:21 doing web scripting is NOT doing embedded coding 18:36:30 http://www-ccs.cs.umass.edu/~shri/iPic.html 18:36:35 ha okokok web scripting 18:36:58 but embedded html forms and all are a great way to interface a system from anywhere in the world 18:37:08 thats what they were calling "embedded coding" 18:37:10 I have a 'tini' board, one of the embedded computers that connects to an ethernet port and looks like a website to the world. 18:37:18 this may not be the peerfect example but its the smallest ;p 18:37:19 yes 18:37:31 cool :) 18:37:44 programming this embedded controller is very much like web scripting. (I prefer a Forth stamp however. ;-) 18:37:55 theres appnotes from microchip, atmel and surely other that shows how to connect their mcus to the internet 18:37:56 nice 18:38:10 asynchronous forth stamps =) 18:38:32 with embedded memory that can be cooled with a peltier junction down to extreme performance 18:38:36 what do people think of the oopic? it's just a pic with some virtual circuit software, but it seems to be popular. 18:38:38 thats my dream lol 18:38:56 people dont understand that asm coding is far greater 18:39:08 macros are a pwerful ways to code in asm on such small system 18:39:19 my "language" consisted mainly of macros 18:39:39 one guy write javrbasic as an interface to his more efficient macros 18:39:43 and its great 18:39:46 and free ;p 18:40:28 i cant understand why theres so much call for c++ and OOP in things like this 18:40:44 me neither 18:40:47 "asm is a dead language" 18:40:54 bullshit. 18:40:58 im not interested in learning C or C++ 18:41:12 or c# 18:41:13 lol 18:42:46 you dont know c ? 18:42:47 anyway the appnotes from atmel and microchip ar great to learn how to really program own's network stack 18:42:51 i can read it 18:42:56 but i cant write it 18:43:02 much like english LOL 18:43:24 lol 18:43:28 thats my problem :P 18:43:51 brb - time to get a shot of JD :) 18:43:58 junst one 18:44:49 jack daniels?! 18:44:51 lol 18:44:57 yes 18:45:06 keep a bottle of JD in my freezer with the shot glasses 18:45:59 thats pretty nice, hope to have that in my appartement next year ;p 18:46:13 how old are you again ??? :) 18:48:34 i dont know why all those people have such a problem dealing with the idea of nominating chuck for a turning award 18:48:39 on clf 18:50:31 some are just being realistic about how ACM works and some just like to rag on Chuck. 18:51:00 --- join: CrowKilr (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 18:51:11 re sorry my connection broke 18:51:21 my cable mdoem isp isnt very reliable 18:51:54 We know that most Forth programers would rather monkey with the 18:51:55 internals of a Forth compiler than write applications. 18:52:07 --- part: Speuler left #forth 18:52:07 actually, the main purpose for isforth isnt isforth itself 18:52:21 thefox: did you ever get a working colorforth-alike under aha? 18:52:24 i wanted it so i could develop linux code without having to resort to crap like c 18:52:42 --- quit: CrowKiller (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:55:46 aha really seems tight, i looked a little at the charts and.. its dense ;p 18:56:06 --- nick: CrowKilr -> CrowKiller 18:56:19 i downlaoded the video about aha 18:56:27 ill listen to it shortly maybe this night 18:56:45 The aha compiler is all working code. I have factored things in a semi-conventional way. The boot code launches an OS which runs a desktop user interface. With it the user can launch and control applicaions including the aha Forth compiler. I haven't rewriten it and the OS in aha format yet. It is cross compiled with machineforth at the present time. 18:57:23 I have not written a colorforth editor for the desktop. That will make a nice stand-alone environment at that point. 18:58:47 The first chat session with Chuck here started me thinking about something. The second session focuses on the idea again. I am going to write a new web page about an idea I got from it. 19:00:02 Early Forth had a DBMS and OS built in in Forth. The file system in Forth was sometimes more like what we could call an object system today with persistent file objects on disk. 19:00:55 i was just reading ER's reply on this subject 19:00:59 i tried to do a javascript colorforth editor lol 19:01:21 but i think the same method could be applied to flat files - and to memory maps 19:01:28 i got a base 64 encoder decoder running, but javascript's a bitch when working with binary values 19:01:29 erm mempry mapped files 19:01:39 This makes me think that a Forth needs these things to really be Forth, the basic of a DBMS is BLOCK and the dictionary. Add records and fields and things like 'C' style structures are not needed. But again, this is the opposite of what most people are doing with Forth today. 19:02:10 most people who use forth arent realy using forth 19:02:12 we need to get a good forth written 19:02:20 the sooner the better lol 19:02:56 the same method cannot for instance be applied to memory mapped files provided by a foreign OS. Otherwise we are simply not talking about the same thing. 19:03:21 thefox - people simulate block files in flat files... 19:03:40 true block files realy being sectors on a disk 19:04:09 thefox: it's similar to what I've been doing with a colorforth derivative, actually. 19:04:12 as far as the user is concerned he is accessing a block file and can think of it in that way 19:04:48 yes, of course I know that, this is why I need to write a paper. Sure you can do something! if you do it backwards, I just think it needs a better name. Well I have to go anyway. Later. 19:05:06 l8er !! 19:05:23 im prolly missing something - ill read what you write when its up :) 19:05:23 --- quit: thefox () 19:13:26 --- join: mslicker (~mark@64.27.199.31) joined #forth 19:22:17 hello 19:24:48 hi 19:25:17 my name is mark too :) 19:26:13 lol me attempt to implement forget segfaults :P 19:26:38 thought I'd check this chanel out on a non-chuck day 19:27:03 :) 19:27:14 u just mised thefox:) 19:27:34 does he come here often? 19:27:46 i think he is gona be semi regular 19:28:19 he is very interested in anything happening in the forth community and now this channel is part of that :) 19:28:44 his showing up here and chuck moores showing up here made all that time i sat in here alone worth while heh 19:29:12 yes he's very generous with his effort, chuck too. 19:30:06 yes 19:30:52 actually the channel was more active last nite heh 19:31:53 here were busy people ;p 19:31:59 we're 19:32:00 so are you doing anything in forth these days ? 19:32:08 crow yea rite :P 19:32:11 me? 19:32:20 im prolly the only one coding :P 19:32:23 and even IM not doing much of that 19:32:24 yea 19:32:41 I work primarily with colorForth. 19:32:47 do you use it for work? at work? or just for self 19:32:57 ive never actually looked at colorforth 19:33:15 no, just on my own time. 19:33:48 :) 19:33:49 coded anything interesting in it? 19:33:56 only the lucky few get to use forth at work 19:34:12 I have a jpeg decoder almost working. 19:34:34 im trying to actually understand colorforth 19:34:39 and the aha system 19:34:39 cool! 19:34:48 I have coded some smaller things too. 19:34:53 pretty cool 19:35:27 im trying to write my own forth for linux 19:35:44 i got a working forth but its in no way minimalist... tho its definatly not fat either 19:36:42 I guess I want to see how far one can take the forth as an os concept. 19:36:48 I'm writing a colorforth derivative, though it is different enough in detail that maybe it ought to be called 'colorlisp' 19:37:35 lol 19:37:38 an entire os you understand, imagine that! 19:37:50 * I440r slaps XeF4 arround with the 83 standard 19:38:17 mslicker thhe day theres a forth os that can handle everything linux can im gona rm -rf linux :) 19:38:53 I440r: you can help bring that day closer ;) 19:39:10 :) 19:39:19 in fcat we can all help 19:39:28 well. im up to my neck in financial trouble and sinking fast 19:39:39 only knowledge is needed for all to participate 19:39:46 if i dont get a job soon im out 19:39:58 up to the exams time I have just that to do, sit on my chiar and code 19:39:59 lol 19:41:09 i would think a small boot sector to load a forth kernel that would then COMPILE sources..... 19:41:21 any time you try use a device it would compile the sources to handle it.... 19:41:30 the FORTH should be minimalist tho 19:41:41 and i would want the OS to be unixy :) 19:41:44 and forthy 19:41:52 forthy would be great to me 19:42:07 i think an forth based unix could be called.... 19:42:08 FIX 19:42:09 I440r: that is pretty much colorforth minus the unix :) 19:42:09 heh 19:42:10 not unixy, anything but unixy, the "everything is a file except when it isn't" is absolutely idiotic 19:42:38 a limitation brought about by the difficulty of maintaining a coherent C world with more than a few threads 19:42:46 xef4 same interface no matter what your accessing is anything but idiotic 19:42:52 cept they never got it right 19:43:09 I440r: no, but they interface they chose is idiotic 19:44:07 The every thing is file cause a lot of bloat, from looking at the linux sources. 19:44:29 the linux sources are a pile of shit - and you can quote me on that 19:44:38 linus t is a great code but his style sucks 19:44:54 totally unreadable 19:45:10 that's unusually charatible. at least a pile of shit usually has the same consistency throughout 19:45:20 I440r: linux does not impress me with it's ideas. 19:46:02 it beats m$ 19:46:11 hands down 19:47:19 lol my laptops uptime is 2 days and im DEVELOPING shit that interfaces directly to the linux kernel 19:47:36 doze could never handle that sort of abuse 19:48:26 neither could the dream forth system of many people 19:48:48 sure it could 19:49:11 crashes are regular occurence in colorforth 19:49:43 the idea is to build software that doesn't crash 19:49:46 but in an os those would be user space crashes 19:51:15 yes 19:51:52 or the os is fubar.... and we cant have that :) 19:53:18 in a forth it seems hard to isolate a task 19:53:35 :) 19:53:40 everything is very integrated. 19:53:50 makes doing it all the more appealing :) 19:54:17 yes :) 19:55:49 hmz. I need to do something, anything, so I can continue to pay my rent. 19:56:07 prostitution 19:56:09 ;p 19:56:10 lol im about to lose a 200k house 19:57:07 ishhh 19:59:10 hey 19:59:14 what are you wiating for 19:59:28 strawberry picking season. 19:59:29 sell your house and invest in a x25 prototype run lol 19:59:45 youll become a billionaire in no time ;p 20:01:30 lol 20:01:38 and i live where till then ? 20:01:48 come hereill give you my address 20:01:51 lol 20:01:57 if i sell it now ill get maybe $30k from the deal. 20:02:00 if that 20:02:12 might end up still OWING money for all i know 20:02:13 I440r: on a boat with some hippies :) 20:02:18 hmmm sell your organs 20:02:29 if they are hippy chix - count me in :) 20:03:22 http://www.estelle.fi/english.htm 20:03:41 doh - this forget im trying to code for isforth keeps segfaulting on me 20:03:42 lol 20:12:32 im doing homework i almost forgot to do lol 20:12:43 forth is really accaparing my mind lol 20:13:02 and i want this book: 20:13:04 http://www.wolframscience.com/ 20:13:50 I440r: have you done anything with lisp? 20:14:28 nope 20:15:07 y ? 20:15:40 just curious 20:16:41 XeF4: what would colorlisp be like? 20:17:18 that looks like a realy cool book! 20:17:44 i studied Sacred Geometry and HyperScience 20:17:58 and this book is actually those those put into action 20:18:16 pricey though, 70$ CAN 20:18:22 msl: basically, I started out designing a less claustrophobic colorforth, but now code is stored as a binary tree/list 20:18:29 but hey my birthday is in 2 weeks so lol 20:18:51 red words define symbols. green and yellow words (except numbers) point at the dictionary entry and so-on 20:18:53 does someone here studied lambda calculus? 20:19:06 Crow: once upon a time, yes 20:19:21 do you know the name Jean-Louis Krivine? 20:19:27 no 20:19:49 hes a french mathematicina who worked with and said that every theorem can be put in lambda calculus 20:19:57 since you talked about lisp 20:20:12 his work shows that every thought is mechanisable 20:20:54 CrowKiller: you mean algorithms? 20:20:59 just a little parenthese ;p 20:21:06 no every meathematical theorem 20:21:13 like goedel completude and incompletude 20:21:16 theormes 20:21:25 on his site 20:21:32 ill get the link 20:21:35 CrowKiller: what's the point? 20:21:44 theres a "brouillon"papaer 20:21:48 describing 20:21:58 a lambda calculus interpreter 20:22:08 its defined in too much mathematical terms for me 20:22:18 but it sounded like forth 20:22:37 ill gte alink wait a second 20:23:16 ftp://ftp.logique.jussieu.fr/pub/distrib/krivine/interprt.pdf 20:23:23 mslicker: at the moment I'm pondering how to get decent performance without overly complicating it. 20:24:18 the guy's working with lambda calculus all day, so he must know how to design such an interpreter 20:24:38 i never worked with lisp or lambda, so i cant tell by myself but it sounded great 20:24:39 XeF4: that is my main warryness toward lisp is the cost of dynamic types. 20:25:00 --- quit: CrowKiller ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 20:25:56 ms: in this case, the stack isn't typed, but the object store/source are typed. 20:26:17 ms: so one can have words that heed the type tags and words which don't. 20:27:14 to use it as a "lisp" one always keeps a cons on top of the stack and uses the type-smart words. 20:28:05 XeF4: it sounds pretty much like forth, with a special vocabulary 20:28:31 ms: *nod* the real difference is how source/object code are managed. 20:30:30 XeF4: how is that handled? 20:32:18 mslicker: at the moment, source is a list of tagged values: red words are a pointer to the allocated header; green/yellow are either pointers to red words or literal numbers. 20:33:00 so the source code is the object code and is easily manipulable/generable at runtime 20:33:46 and if you have : foo + ; : foo - ; : foo * ; it is possible to retroactively redefine any of those 3 20:34:47 XeF4: so it is interpreted, instead of native code? 20:34:48 (nice for dropping code into a semi-protected sandbox) 20:35:00 msl: it is threaded, but I'm working on native code. 20:35:52 XeF4: sounds like an interesting aproach. 20:37:17 XeF4: do you see any other benefits, besides retroactive defintion? 20:39:55 mslicker: saving and restoring images is easy, source is always available and always corresponds to the compiled code 20:41:31 XeF4: so this is not a block based approach then. 20:41:37 dictionary space can be garbage collected 20:41:44 no. 20:42:20 XeF4: I see, it's like a dynamic dictionary. 20:43:40 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:45:13 another advantage is that it should be able to metacompile from a few hundred byte loader (maybe even a bootsector) 20:46:33 jeff fox was saying (or maybe chuck) that colorforth would compile itself eventually. 20:46:54 I don't know much about metacompilation. 20:47:58 I even once toyed with using the i386' many, many branch instructions as type tags 20:48:06 so that the source would be valid i386 native code 20:48:20 (albeit horridly inefficient native code) 20:49:21 That's a big tag too 20:51:21 and it makes sharing code between machines too difficult, and small inconsistencies totally catastrophic 20:52:26 yes, that would be a poor interchange format. 20:52:57 some people don't like that colorforth is not ascii. 20:53:52 however it is primarily an internal format, and completely appropriate. 20:53:55 I don't dislike that it's non-ascii, but I do dislike the charset it uses. 20:55:49 it seems apropriate, however there is no grouping characters. 20:55:59 like ( ) 20:56:11 a pseudo-huffman charset that could be expanded without bound would be nice. 20:56:41 except that I use those when writing plaintext. 20:57:11 or maybe within a pratical bound 20:57:23 practical bound == 32 bit word 20:57:37 jpeg has a maximum code length of 16 bits for example 20:58:34 color/type tags that can expand without bound are a very good thing, too 20:59:45 and not necessarily slower than fixed-width tags 21:00:16 basically these thing take up more space. 21:00:40 there is probibly a slight increse in computational cost. 21:00:45 --- quit: tmcm ("using sirc version 2.211+ssfe") 21:01:29 msl: I haven't found one. 21:02:24 msl: and only 9/16 colours are in use in Moore's colorforth, so adding expandable tags shoudln't be hard. 21:02:49 the trouble is that only one word is looked at for significance when compiling 21:03:04 so the extended tags would crowd out available word chars 21:03:24 yes, the search is very optimized 21:04:48 however.. /me has revelation 21:06:37 the existing colorforth code would be 100% compatable since this would use a previously unused color 21:07:10 things that deserve extended tags (inline jpegs, embedded file references/whatever) need no searches 21:07:24 so these can be made as long as we want, and the code in the jump table just hops over it. 21:08:02 yes 21:08:27 so you would just have a tag called extended or something like that. 21:08:37 yes. 21:08:47 and the contents would be what you wanted to do. 21:11:44 I 21:12:12 I'll have look into the extensibility part. 21:12:51 I've wondered how you might integrate text strings and such into the colorforth editor. 21:15:08 not that I've needed to do such a thing, yet. 21:18:04 what keyboard layout are you using, btw? 21:18:23 in colorforth? 21:18:24 (in colorforth) 21:18:41 the one chuck uses, the dvorak 21:19:53 using colorforth can be very fast a times. 21:20:40 I sometimes get hung up on the difference between typing numbers and digits. 21:27:14 It should be interesting to see chuck's idea of a web browser. 21:28:53 He is very skilled at interface design. 21:33:24 --- quit: air (Remote closed the connection) 21:41:27 it will probably look like a browser that chokes on all pages but those Chuck views regularly 21:42:56 I have found chuck's code pretty robust. 21:43:19 but, the web it something he can't control. 21:44:34 he talked about translating html into fml, a forth markup language. 21:46:19 I was here then. I just mean I expect he would translate a tiny subset of html to solve his own problems of reading www in colorforth. 21:46:44 I admire his approach, I'm just not holding my breath for *my* browsing 21:48:19 your probably right, I don't think he support javascript and all that other nonsense that is on the web. 21:48:40 some sites require javascript for proper operation. 21:49:00 I would be surprised if he supported tables fully 21:50:10 tables could be done I think, without to much difficulty. 21:51:19 most sites use a table layout, which rules out a good portion of the web. 21:51:35 unless you want something like lynx 21:53:27 or you could do some kind of smart layout, I don't know how succesful that would be. 21:53:49 dunno. something like lynx is adequate imo 21:54:25 something that exists and works at all is far preferable to the current state of things :) 21:54:57 yeah, I would be happy just to do email in colorforth. :) 21:59:37 I should get going. 21:59:40 bye 21:59:49 --- quit: mslicker ("[x]chat") 22:00:16 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 22:07:34 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@nat-ch0.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:07:39 hi 22:09:19 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 22:10:04 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@nat-ch0.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:17:41 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 22:36:03 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@nat-ch0.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:36:20 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 22:39:58 --- join: qless (~cerb@mani.kobayashimaru.org) joined #forth 22:42:35 --- quit: qless (Client Quit) 22:46:53 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 23:00:56 --- join: airc (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 23:47:44 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@nat-ch0.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 23:48:03 hi 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.05.22