00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.16 00:13:35 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-101.dacor.net) joined #forth 00:13:46 Hey ho! 00:14:06 Hej rob_ert.se 00:14:22 how do you say 'how are you'? 00:14:37 In what language? :-) 00:14:42 duh. 00:14:46 FORTH ;) 00:14:49 ;D 00:14:58 "Hur går det?" <-- Swedish 00:15:04 "Hoe gaat het?" <-- Dutch 00:15:09 "Wie geht's" <-- German 00:15:22 I know the german and the french ones. 00:15:23 And now, teach me that expression in some weird language =) 00:15:36 'Ca va'? 00:15:54 Ohayo <-- japanese 00:15:59 Heh... "Va' sa" = "What? I didn't hear" 00:16:15 really? 00:16:16 hehehe 00:16:22 Yeah. 00:16:26 'Ca va'? <--- French 00:17:01 :-) 00:17:33 'Hur går det, gamle sjögurka?" <-- another variant in swedish 00:17:59 How are you? Is everything alright? 00:18:50 what does it mean? 00:20:35 Hmm 00:21:32 Nothing, really. 00:21:36 Made it up :-) 00:21:53 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~BigBoyTod@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 00:22:00 HI Big boy 00:22:06 gilby 00:22:12 how is the great forth documentation project going? 00:22:40 well, I have done a few more documents, and a HUGE garage sale this weekend is taking up all my time. I have 20+ systems to sell, so the forth project is on hold until monday. 00:22:48 I have some more books coming in, 4 in particular :) 00:22:55 --- quit: deltab ("Reconnecting") 00:22:59 which ones? 00:23:01 --- join: deltab_ (~deltab@216.234.235.21) joined #forth 00:23:23 With all the computers I'm selling, with a friend, and the fun we have doing this, well I hope to make a few bucks. 00:23:36 Hi BigBoyToddy :) 00:23:50 Hmm 00:23:52 where do you live again? CO? 00:24:01 * rob_ert would like to be there :( 00:24:05 * rob_ert likes computers :-) 00:24:06 The books? Lets see, FORTH for Pros, Forth Fundamentals Vol 1 (loaned), and 2 other forth documents, working on getting Kitts Peak too :) 00:24:12 rob_ert: wants to come to america? 00:24:14 GilbertBSD: yep. 00:24:18 rob_ert: hi 00:24:28 Kitts peak had a forth? 00:24:37 GilbertBSD: Yeah, I'd like to.. :-/ 00:24:39 i mean forth doc? 00:24:53 I currently have TIL, Starting forth, forth programming and more. 00:24:54 so come over rob_ert 00:25:12 --- nick: deltab_ -> deltab 00:25:26 The documents, well, polyFORTH II, USING FORTH as I stated, 83 forth standard, 79 forth standard, Kitts Peak document, Stanfords document, and more. 00:25:39 Oh, and the BYTE articles. 00:25:49 GilbertBSD: Will you pay my tickets? =) 00:25:52 I still have to scan the CM article and send it to CM :) 00:26:03 rob_ert: no your dear dad will. 00:26:13 Bah.. 00:26:16 I doubt that. 00:26:17 Just wanted to drop by and say hi, so hello to all FORTHers, here, lingering or otherwise. 00:26:20 the byte articles? I can't find those on byte.com 00:27:01 GilbertBSD: yes, the byte magazine FORTH aug 1980 issue. I have 2 copies of the mag, so cutting one up for scanning is not a HUGE problem. 00:27:30 well, I'm snoozing tired, have to go, take care all and I hope to remember to come online for CM this weekend. Sat at 2 PM pacific right? 00:28:06 I dun no 00:28:14 oh well, later then. Take care! 00:28:18 --- quit: BigBoyToddy ("See ya folks, it has been nice to chat with you all.") 00:30:58 Oh, right... Chuck's returning, isn't he? 00:32:26 --- quit: rob_ert (Remote closed the connection) 00:33:29 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 00:52:26 --- join: davidw (~davidw@adsl-243-109.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 00:53:08 Hi :-) 00:54:41 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 01:24:30 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-34.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 01:25:13 Hi Soap`. 01:31:55 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:32:02 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-34.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 01:32:19 doh 01:39:02 * rob_ert leaves for 1 hour of school. :-) 02:57:37 --- join: juu (ammu@baana-62-165-189-112.phnet.fi) joined #forth 03:01:30 murr 03:17:55 oh nice 03:18:00 700 ppl on one channel 03:18:00 :) 03:18:13 and someone has 83000 kicks / kickbans 03:19:01 I thought it might be cool to let people know (somehow: topic, bot, chanserv) about the event on the 18th, and interested parties to prepare "what is future of forth" opinions for C. Moore 03:19:01 Hmm 03:19:01 * rob_ert will think about that. 03:19:28 (this was several days ago... probably too late to do anything about it now?) 03:19:59 or, still thinking? 03:21:23 if you were to check the log of the last CM appearance, you will find that's -exactly- what he asked for 03:24:07 what date was the last CM appearance? 03:24:57 two weeks ago from this coming saturday, when he has said he will return 03:25:37 ugh, i'm going out of town this weekend 03:28:52 what time did he show up? 03:29:01 then, he asked for opinions on the future of forth... perhaps there were enuf people already there to form a working group to give opinion on that subject; I had thought a few days ago "it would be nice to give others (i.e., people who come here over the intervening period) an opportunity to answer the same question... 03:29:17 but when I presented the idea... 03:29:22 Hmm 03:29:25 * rob_ert will think about that. 03:29:38 hehe 03:30:01 I guess we can all breathe a sigh of "oh well" :) 03:30:11 oh dear 03:30:27 lets start massive invite / msgspam campaign ;) 03:31:04 if you do that lilo might notice you 03:32:22 but like I said, oh well... it was just a (community-building) idea... 03:32:55 it was only joke 03:33:03 it'd be just stupid to do that in any case 03:33:10 true 03:46:55 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 03:52:33 juu: ;) 03:52:42 juu: I can't set the topic here anyway 03:52:44 er 03:52:47 jim* 03:52:58 ahh :) 03:53:16 And btw, I only said I might prepare some answer to Chuck's q. 03:53:33 oic 03:55:06 rob_ert you called little one:) 03:55:25 Nah, I called the wrong troll :D 03:55:31 Sorry to bother you 03:56:35 rob_ert it's payback time 03:57:38 :-? 03:59:53 * juu gives rob_ert flowers 04:01:07 * rob_ert says "no" when juu asks him to marry him. 04:04:50 but i didn't asked anything 04:05:19 Oh... 04:05:25 * rob_ert hears voices in his head. 04:06:31 rob_ert you need advice. see a doctor 04:06:44 doctor a day keeps apples away :) 04:07:06 * rob_ert sees a flying apple. 04:07:13 * rob_ert eats doctor juu- 04:07:18 hey hey! no dissing apples! I ran forth on an apple... 04:07:43 was it drive-thru or drive-in? 04:07:44 :) 04:07:46 xD 04:07:59 Hmm... is there any forth for CP/M-86? 04:08:07 there was, yes 04:08:22 it was on one of those big floppies 04:08:33 err, cpm/80 04:08:46 still, probably is for 86 too 04:09:34 Hmm 04:09:49 Only non-x86 forth I have is C64forth :) 04:09:52 there has certainly been asm listing 04:10:15 Of a forth for cp/m-86? 04:11:30 of 8086 forth... the issue of cp/m was resolved in those days by implementing key, emit, and some sort of block i/o 04:11:44 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapSleep 04:11:54 Night SoapSleep 04:12:16 key and emit were done usually by simply setting a branch address 04:12:22 jim: Well, I'm too lazy for that much work :-) And besides, there are no programming manuals for the machine I'm talking about. 04:12:41 but there would be, for cp/m 04:13:19 Well, yes... 04:13:24 Hmm 04:13:27 the typical thing to do there was implement everything in terms of cp/m syscalls 04:13:37 Yeah, I guess so. 04:13:49 (lazy? then typing in the asm listing would be out of the question? :) 04:13:59 Yes it would. 04:14:07 The machine is an i80186 with CP/M-86 2.1 (I think), and some nice hardware. 04:14:09 but I'm sure there must be a typed in one 04:14:27 Guess so. 04:14:56 you'd probably need an assembler 04:16:06 ahh, rob_ert see you have been converting your asm to opcodes with hexeditor for nothinng! i told you there are applications to do that! ;) 04:16:30 I was worse than that when I had my imsai... 04:17:04 256 bytes of ram, no video, hand-asm on paper then keyed it in... 04:17:21 When was that? 04:17:37 1976 or so 04:17:45 Heh... 04:17:54 You must be in Chuck Moore's age :D 04:18:33 I think he's older, but I'm 43 now 04:18:52 Okay :-) 04:19:03 Unusual to see people above ~25 years on OPN. 04:19:18 me and rob_ert are not even hald of your ag.. ah. wait a second, rob_ert is not 4 years old 04:19:45 * rob_ert doesn't get that...joke. 04:20:52 being the implied age wouldn't be a bad thing 04:21:33 Well... I'm not 4. 04:21:38 More like 4^2 :-) 04:21:44 Not bad either. 04:22:44 be glad you're not 4 ^ 3 :) 04:23:19 Like Chuck Moore ;-) 04:23:35 or Draper 04:23:35 well if our ages are concatenated 04:23:40 Draper? 04:23:47 19+x = 43/2 04:23:54 x = ~ 4 04:23:57 :) 04:24:21 Who's that Draper? 04:24:37 ugh. my x boss 04:24:54 Hehe 04:25:03 but he was the one that had the first forth I ever saw... 04:25:16 Nice =) 04:25:52 he's that phone dude... 04:25:54 crunck 04:25:58 err 04:26:01 crunch 04:26:56 * rob_ert wonders what jim is talking about... 04:27:26 Captain Crunch, John Draper, my ex boss, had the first forth I ever saw 04:28:01 that was his nickname; 04:28:23 he was probably the most famous phone hacks 04:28:42 he made EasyWriter 04:29:11 What is EasyWriter? :-) 04:29:28 a word processor for the apple ][ 04:30:09 Okay. 04:30:16 reimplemented on the first IBM PC as EasyWriter Pro, the first wp for the machine 04:30:20 What CPU was that based on? 04:30:31 probably 8088 04:30:41 or 8086 04:30:43 I meant Apple II 04:30:53 6502 04:31:07 Okay. 04:31:51 same as for Ragsdale's, he wrote the fig forth installation guide based on the 6502 04:31:59 rob_ert you know what computers are based on 68010s ? :) quiz.. 04:32:29 are? :) 04:32:47 hmm :) but 68k is a nice arch 04:33:05 Heh 04:33:07 No idea... 04:33:34 amigas for insace 04:33:34 lots of regs, and they aren't warped in shape 04:33:37 a500 04:33:51 s/for insane/for instance/; 04:34:11 I don't think any macs were 04:34:15 or ataris 04:34:29 were commodores? 04:34:36 dunno 04:34:36 68010 was generally considered an improvement for embedded work, if I recall 04:34:53 no macs used them 04:35:15 * rob_ert has an A-500 :-) 04:35:23 * juu too! 04:35:24 wasn't the amiga by commodore? 04:35:28 y 04:35:29 Yes. 04:35:56 * rob_ert pets all his Commodore computers. Don't have enough room for them though :-/ 04:36:17 they seemed nice enough, I never wanted one enough to get one 04:37:20 someone has a forth as a linux kernel module... 04:37:34 Heh, nice. 04:38:18 * juu dislikes PCs 04:38:48 Warum? 04:38:58 well, intel arch is worst-case (accd'g to at least one teacher of compiler construction) 04:40:04 :-) 04:40:11 What could be done better? 04:40:20 I don't have much experience of other platforms :-/ 04:40:36 the register layout is so puzzling... 04:41:26 the instruction set isn't all that orthogonal when you put operations against processor-level data types 04:41:43 orthogonal = = 04:41:43 and pc lacks all standards, small wonder there are such as ide in existence 04:41:44 orthogonal = 04:41:46 rgrgr 04:41:53 What does 'orthogonal' mean? 04:41:57 * rob_ert can't type today. 04:42:38 oh, geometrically, in N-space, two figures are orthogonal if they are at right-angles to each other 04:44:08 * rob_ert feels stupid when he doesn't even understand the explanation of a word. 04:44:15 orthogonality in an instruction set means, vaguely, that all processor level data types can do all operations in all addressing modes 04:44:36 I see. 04:45:19 Opposed to the way things are in x86, when different registers are used for different things? 04:45:29 yeah... 04:46:01 there are some processors that have GP regs, and you can say "reg 2 is the pc" 04:46:10 Nice. 04:47:13 I am really looking forward to getting acquinted with stack-based processors myself 04:48:05 that really cuts down on the level of usually useless "generality" of > 1 operand designs 04:48:23 (such as the x86, 68k, etc.) 04:49:19 CM made this one chip, called the Novix 4000p or something like that... 04:49:23 yeah 04:50:01 4000 transistors, a data bus, an address bus, and a separate stack address bus and stack data bus 04:50:12 I plan on getting MuP21, and F21 if it ever is made available 04:50:21 Hmm... 4000 transistors? :-) 04:50:25 That's not alot. 04:50:29 rob: no =) 04:50:35 Compared to, say, a P6 ;) 04:50:49 well, consider that Novix is about 16 years old 04:50:54 but, still...quite impressive 04:51:01 yeah, they said if they were to optimize it, could reach a quarter speed of a cray :) 04:51:13 jim: I don't doubt that at all, for some reason 04:51:23 Are they cheap to produce? 04:51:35 I don't even know if they exist :) 04:51:36 (Not crays, those stackbased CPUs) 04:51:54 rob: mass-produced? hell yeah 04:52:15 :} 04:52:23 rob: if what exists? 04:52:26 Not like the $1k Intel takes? 04:52:29 err 04:52:32 jim* ;) 04:52:33 jim, if what exists? 04:52:50 rob: the estimated cost of the F21 should be roughly a $1 04:52:51 the Novix chip... did they ever make one? 04:52:58 jim: yes 04:53:03 quite a few if I recall 04:53:14 they sold a few hundred kits (I *think*, but don't quote me on that) 04:53:23 Mr. Fox bought one 04:53:51 they put about $250K into the P21's 04:54:22 and the chips, however slow and large they are now ('94 fab), still cost $25 apiece 04:54:22 Hmm... 1$... what kind of applications would it be used in? 04:54:32 rob: imo...quite a lot 04:54:35 the stacks are quite deep 04:54:43 iirc, it's pretty GP 04:55:02 I mean, will they be useful in "every-day" computers? 04:55:05 has a built-in video processor, analogue coprocessor (very nice for laboratory control interfaces), etc. 04:55:05 at one time, Jeff planned on an ethernet interface on the chip 04:55:09 rob: they could be 04:55:16 rob: I don't see why you'd want such a thing 04:55:44 Hmm 04:55:50 Since it's cheap? :-) 04:55:50 I think they are better off for applications where you want the power and flexibility of general-purpose computers at the cost and relatively simple implementation of hardware 04:55:55 as a devel env for little things with f21s in them maybe? :) 04:56:31 jim: well, most Forth-based embedded development uses the actual processor anyway 04:56:51 rather in-circuit debugging or simulation 04:57:02 so, that kind of goes with the turf (if I understood you correctly) 04:57:31 so, create a cpu/mem/IO card on (say) a pci card 04:57:46 put it in a slot and play :) 04:58:09 I'm looking forward to doing actual development using a colorForth on the F21 itself 04:58:56 Jeff said he hasn't done any production runs of F* since the first, 1998 04:59:21 I think that's what he said... it should be in the irc log 04:59:24 from what I understand, he has had at least two chip fabs 04:59:32 currently, it is on F21d 04:59:37 F20? 04:59:53 the previous one, that did not work out so well was F21c 04:59:58 and there may have been an F21b 05:00:09 all of this is at ultratechnology.com, from what I recall 05:01:01 I think it has always been called F21 05:01:15 I think the only '20 was the original P20 05:01:23 which was a disaster from what I remember 05:01:27 of hearsay :P 05:01:38 totally defunct :P 05:03:06 I'd put serious money into more fabs, if I had any 05:03:14 I really wish that was an option for me at this point 05:03:19 because I think that would be a lot of fun 05:03:51 (to have a whole bunch of the suckers in a eurorack, several monitors, and tied together by their network interface) 05:04:25 about the cost of halfway decent car :P 05:04:57 * rob_ert imagines a cluster of 1024 forth CPUs. Would be fun to play with if I knew more than I do :-) 05:05:15 rob: well, from what I can see...that is sort of the premise of Mr. Moore's 25x 05:05:27 25 x18 cpu cores in one chip 05:05:47 there was some talk of upping that anty (sp?), to 100, 500 maybe even 5000 cores 05:05:56 (ante) 05:06:02 deltab: thanks! 05:06:23 Hehe 05:06:32 Sounds nice. 05:06:36 yeah 05:06:45 All with their own stacks? 05:06:56 yes, from what I understand 05:07:03 :-) 05:07:27 About how many instructions/second can these forth chips do? 05:07:38 rob_ert it's not how many but how fast 05:07:52 you can do bloated code like in windows or efficient 05:08:05 the numbers range quite a lot 05:08:07 and even amiga program might still be faster than some windows one 05:08:37 but the numbers discussed are often placed above 2500 mips 05:08:47 and that is data several years old 05:09:13 again 05:09:21 all this stuff is listed at ultratechnology.com 05:09:30 most of it I am just paraphrasing from memory 05:10:26 but what interested me is that they were aiming for each instruction to take exactly a nanosecond to execute 05:10:44 which makes its real-time applications quite vast, imo 05:11:30 the Novix design was very interesting... an instruction word had bits set for particular things... so a smart-enuf compiler could combine words together into the same instruction, and if it reaches the ;, it sets the ; bit in the instruction and it returns after 05:11:58 jim: that's neat 05:12:30 from what I know, the Novix is an early ancestor of much of the stuff that Mr. Moore is working on now 05:12:45 (perhaps a little more ShBoom-like, if I recall, but yeah...) 05:12:53 the novix was probably the first one 05:13:02 so, I am guessing maybe a lot of that still applies 05:13:22 hmm, gotta go... bbl 05:13:31 as do I, actually 05:13:32 take care 05:13:35 nice chatting 05:13:36 =) 05:13:42 have a pleasant day, all 05:13:58 Bye. 05:14:12 take care =) 05:40:08 --- join: gforth0 (guest@adsl52101.vnet.hu) joined #forth 05:50:10 --- join: onetom_ (tom@adsl52101.vnet.hu) joined #forth 05:58:40 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:58:41 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 05:58:44 --- quit: gforth (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:58:44 --- nick: gforth0 -> gforth 06:50:11 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@adsl-243-109.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 06:50:11 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:50:33 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 06:51:54 --- nick: juu -> juuAway 07:25:51 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:34:39 --- nick: juuAway -> juu 07:34:47 hey 07:34:48 Hej juu. 07:41:54 this Murray dude is off the hook 07:42:12 pretty seriously, it would seem 07:42:41 ? 07:44:29 read comp.lang.forth 07:45:09 davidw: what sw do u use 4 reading it? 07:45:11 google? 07:45:21 onetom: I use emacs' gnus 07:45:31 oh :)) 07:45:32 and connect to the news server of my provider 07:45:43 google works too, if you don't mind web interfaces 07:46:11 and what would u do i u wanna read a fat thread 07:46:25 uve found via google? 07:50:07 if I need to search, yes, i use google 07:50:41 but if uve found... 07:50:51 who would u download it into emacs? 07:51:19 whats new on clf anyway? 07:51:32 onetom: that Murray dude 07:51:42 no, if I am just searching, I read it with google 07:51:56 if I am just reading the newsgroup, I read it with gnus 07:52:21 but how would u do such a thread dl? 07:52:26 is it possible @ allt? 07:52:28 all? 07:52:31 I don't think so 07:52:35 I just read it via google 07:52:57 how do u limit the number of msg in emacs? 07:53:12 it has an automatic limit 07:53:16 I think 07:53:20 if not, you set it 07:53:42 c c :/ 08:01:32 hmm.. 08:01:41 * juu is browsing irc-galleria 08:01:46 it's place where there are finnish irccers photos 08:01:52 hah, 3 million hits every day 08:02:28 (Figures in parentheses refer to the 7-day period ending 14-May-2002 14:15). 08:02:30 Successful requests: 413,944,050 (21,408,133) 08:03:33 Data transferred: 4.270 terabytes (170.188 gigabytes) 08:03:33 Average data transferred per day: 11.816 gigabytes (24.312 gigabytes) 08:05:04 not bad 08:05:08 for one server oly 08:05:10 only 08:14:52 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max1-1.dacor.net) joined #forth 08:15:01 re 08:15:12 hi 08:18:17 Hi :) 08:18:28 hej. 08:18:31 wie Gehts? 08:24:50 Gut, danke. 08:24:54 Und mit dir? 08:25:06 zehr gut. 08:25:09 :D 08:25:44 reaction time: 3 days and 2 nights. 08:25:48 A record! 08:26:16 sehr gut* 08:26:44 rob_ert: Ich habe ein 'strong accent' :D 08:26:53 Ja, das höre ich. 08:27:22 der Strunger Accenter Engeblatzenfurter wie Dorkensprekunkel 08:27:50 Genau... 08:28:16 I can't find my german-english dictionary so I will let that pass for now. 08:28:25 =D 08:28:36 Well, you're lucky 08:28:49 Since you speak english, you have all those online dictionaries. 08:29:10 I don't feel like 1. looking for a dictionary. 2. Using it 08:29:26 GilbertBSD we notice that 08:29:56 I can't mark the online dictionary all over! 08:30:07 I can mark mine as much as I want and do other things with it. 08:30:25 GilbertBSD: just use 'dict' 08:30:29 dict cur 08:30:38 dict cur? 08:30:49 dict word 08:30:52