00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.08 00:00:06 SELF comes to mind, and also Smalltalk (to a lesser extent since it is a class based system). 00:00:43 Mach is a very bad example of a microkernel though. 00:00:47 But I tangential again, sorry. Back to FORTH, I will put up the page as soon as I have the host. Does anyone here have a host they can put a 15-20 meg website, my ISP blocks http now, bastards! 00:00:50 It's slow, and tries to be all things to all people. 00:01:17 BigBoyToddy: what will your page be about? 00:01:23 Dolphin doesn't do this. Compiled with GCC, the last build of 0.4 came to around 16KB, including limited MMU facilities, dynamic memory management for processes, message passing, and interrupt handling. 00:01:37 kc5tja: well, to some extent Mach as it is today is a 'bad' example of an extreme microkernel concept. Yet it does and did take the dynamic nature of loadable modules to a new level, 13/14 years ago. Today, the extreme micro design is way off the lower end fo the scale, so I agree. 00:01:54 I expected the C-based 0.5 kernel to be around 24K when I was done, but considering the use of Forth, I predict around 8 to 10K 00:02:19 BigBoyToddy: AmigaOS did it before Mach, and it still outperforms it. :D 00:02:27 GilbertBSD: it will be about FORTH books. I have started a library of RARE and hard to find FORTH things, with the help of some great personalities (and some not so great) in the community. It will be PDF'ed documents that are copy-released, and also reviews of the books in the library. 00:02:53 BigBoyToddy: OOh...so you're going to put the PDFs on a website? 00:02:56 kc5tja: I'm not an AmigaOS knowledgable guy, so I will have to take your word for it, but before 1986'ish? 00:02:56 so all the books will be online is that what you are saying? 00:03:14 when Mach was first conceived as a Fed funded gov project at CMU and other universities? 00:03:17 BigBoyToddy: AmigaOS was released to the public in 1985, and was released to developers in 1984. 00:03:42 GilbertBSD: no, just a few that are copy-released, and reviews written by me and those that also have read them. 00:03:44 BigBoyToddy: Mach is not the first microkernel, contrary to popular belief. 00:04:01 For that matter, neither is AmigaOS. 00:04:06 kc5tja: well, then you may be right, I know NOTHING about AmigaOS other than a spinning red bouncing checkered white ball :o) 00:04:38 The first "true" microkernel, that was actually called a microkernel, would have to go to QNX 2.0, IIRC. 00:04:39 BigBoyToddy: are Brodie's books among them? 00:05:10 * kc5tja would like to read Forth for Professionals, actually. That sounds like an interesting read. Will that be available online? 00:05:11 kc5tja: I know a little about them, I booted off floppy and was impressed as heck about 5 years ago, actually blown away by the micro-ness of it, and also the lack of apps. 00:06:02 kc5tja: it is actually an amazing book, has GREAT comparisons and LOW level information about different processors, like the 6502, 6800, 6809, z80 and so forth, shows code generated and more! Really cool, well written, some typos, and some errors in accuracy, but most part it is good. 00:06:03 BigBoyToddy: Well, except for the lack of apps, that's exactly what AmigaOS is like. :D 00:06:45 GilbertBSD: yes 00:06:49 And that's exactly what Dolphin will be like. 00:07:12 Dolphin 0.3's task switcher hauled butt -- over 1000 task switches per second before it started to show signs of stress. 00:07:23 GilbertBSD: I have USING Forth also, and still working HARD to get elizabeth to release me from prosecution to put it online. Leo said yes, Liz said NO, but I'll ask again in a few months. 00:07:37 * kc5tja is going to set the kernel's quantum at a more reasonable level, of course, but that just goes to show you what good, clean kernel coding can do. 00:07:49 will Brodie be online too? 00:08:30 BigBoyToddy: What you need to do is scan all those books into PDF format, and burn a CD of them. Just to keep them preserved in the event of a web server crash or something. 00:08:32 GilbertBSD: the bottomline is that I have had to spend LOTS of money, WAY too much IMHO to get information old and new about FORTH. That is IMHO a major reason why folks don't come to FORTH, the learning and effort curve invested is TOO high initially, and folks just give up and go away. I almost did, and said to myself for whatever reason I would find the information as to why FORTH is so cool, and the reward was there in pers 00:08:42 That's a lot of really valuable material, and should be preserved. 00:09:18 BigBoyToddy: I was interested in the very early forth documents written by Chuck Moore 00:09:20 kc5tja: I have done so to some extent, I can't explain or expound which, for legal reasons, but I own the books, so I'm not worried about legality for personal use. I am concerned about legal action against me if I put them online, so that won't happen without well documented release forms from the copyright owners. 00:09:25 but I couldn't find them at all. 00:09:27 GilbertBSD: I have a few! 00:09:36 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 00:09:45 GilbertBSD: and I'm talking more with CM about getting more preserved. 00:09:51 BigBoyToddy: No no, I don't mean put the CD online, I'm just saying, keep that CD available. :) 00:10:24 kc5tja: yes I understand clearly what YOU mean, I have also other interests, to make it easy for FORTH programmers to find and learn from the past, as well as forums like this in the future. 00:10:40 kc5tja: my intent is to create a very robust and complete FORTH-HISTORY.com site. 00:10:46 Nice. 00:10:47 I will do it. 00:11:07 * kc5tja thinks that Forth will get a publicity boost if I successfully release Dolphin to the public, with it written in FS/Forth. 00:11:14 BigBoyToddy: so starting from the first ever article by CM al the way down to the last book written? 00:11:15 And NO, I will not charge admission, except to expect someone visiting to be interested in FORTH :o) 00:11:23 GilbertBSD: that is the intent. 00:11:35 BigBoyToddy: prosecution? 00:11:50 hmmm cool. Iwas gonna copy brodie and simply put it online and pretend I never knew what happened. 00:11:55 GilbertBSD: bottomline is that I need to play to political game to get all to understand what I'm up to, and some folks (named withheld for liable reasons :o) just don't see it yet. 00:12:09 ER? 00:12:21 GilbertBSD: maybe :o) 00:12:26 mkay. 00:12:55 ER can be a @*#$&(*#& sometimes. She's an extremely business-savvy person, and can and will make money on anything she can. 00:13:04 ofom a eb tsum 00:13:10 kc5tja: as she should. 00:13:16 GilbertBSD: can be. 00:13:30 now ER means er ... er er I dunno 00:13:32 er 00:13:37 ;) 00:13:39 BigBoyToddy: mmmm yes, but there are some cases in which an immediate profit might sacrifice more long term profits 00:13:52 indeed. 00:13:53 I believe with all my heart some folks simply mean well, and protect themselves first because somewhere in life they have been burned. I give them the benefit of the doubt until otherwise, I have not experience otherwise, yet. 00:13:55 BigBoyToddy: no idea if that applies to anything in this case 00:15:19 davidw: yes that is true, and I have seen that in other segments of software. In this case, I simply think most in the FORTH commercial sector have something to lose, and when it is not obvious what is to be gained, the loss seems very large when in reality it is nothing. Perception versus reality, imbreeding, insecurity, market share, you name it whatever ya want, I simply respect it. 00:16:50 BTW, aside from this topic, the real topic of the materials is interesting. Sitting on my shelf is a copy of USING Forth, has anyone here even heard of it? 00:17:01 no. 00:17:06 Nope. 00:17:14 I've heard of Starting Forth, and Thinking Forth, and that's it. 00:17:34 This is what I am concerned. It predates Starting and Thinking. USING is written also by Leo and ER. 00:18:04 It is a 8.5 x 11 perfect bound, and is really, really interesting read :o) 00:18:05 Hmm. 00:18:12 Hey, I gotta go. 00:18:15 They're locking this place up. 00:18:16 see ya! 00:18:26 kc5tja: thanks for the chat, I look froward to your works. 00:18:36 n/p :) I'll keep y'all posted. 00:18:41 ltr. 00:19:08 Oh, and yes the scan and PDF'in of the materials is of interest to me also. 00:19:22 I think it will help the community in a major way, and that is the direction I'm heading with some of the materials. 00:19:54 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:20:14 davidw and others, take care. I wish all FORTH programmers the very best, it seems there is potentially a serious revival of FORTH importance in simplicity of software, and I hope it happens with a critical mass of information that really does exist out there, it is just hard as heck to find and digest. 00:20:16 ltr. 00:21:21 bye toddy 00:21:57 --- nick: Frac -> Fractal 00:22:19 its ALIVE 00:22:38 w00t t0 the w00t, yozzzzz!!!!!1111!1@!133@$%!@#$^@#$%c756f3cf^%c3f6C%F^#C(Gc3g9 00:23:16 --- nick: Fractal -> Jesus 00:23:29 jesus 00:23:33 Sup? 00:23:33 do you ever talk? 00:23:45 No, the lord talks through me. 00:23:56 what does the lord have to say? 00:24:14 He says that irc.openprojects.net sucks my ass!! 00:24:43 Oh well. 00:24:46 --- nick: Jesus -> Fractal 00:24:47 Jesus: think you could take Buddha? 00:24:53 In a second. :) 00:24:57 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 00:24:57 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 00:24:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 00:25:02 Bah. 00:25:06 --- nick: Fractal -> Frac 00:25:54 Lame. Let's r00t ChanServ's box! 00:26:40 I want to talk to this Fractal fellow. 00:26:52 sure go ahead. 00:26:53 Perhaps I can convince him to give me his nick. 00:26:58 He's never on! 00:27:23 --- nick: GilbertBSD -> Fractalis 00:27:31 Heh. 00:28:14 --- nick: Fractalis -> mandelbrot 00:28:18 how about that? 00:28:43 Heh. There you go. :) 00:30:42 Fractal's a neat. 00:30:48 Are. 00:31:29 do you create fractals in forth? 00:32:31 No. 00:32:40 That'd be pretty neat, though. 00:33:35 so what do you use forth / fractals for? 00:35:02 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 00:35:08 .1 00:35:10 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 00:35:10 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 00:35:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 00:35:17 Well... 00:35:34 I'm just vaguely interested in forth. 00:35:51 hi 00:36:00 it's got some neat ideas,for sure 00:36:13 like what davidw? 00:36:25 hi onetom 00:36:31 mandelbrot: no 00:36:43 mandelbrot: i dont deal w fractals ;) 00:36:45 --- nick: mandelbrot -> GilbertBSD 00:36:47 mandelbrot: well, I like that there isn't really syntax 00:37:09 I also like that some forths let you write stuff on the fly in ASM 00:37:39 Ya, that's kinda neat too. What I don't like is how non-portable it is. 00:37:41 * davidw has to boot into OF on his mac sometime to see what capabilities I've got... 00:37:50 Frac: in what sense? 00:37:55 ans is more or less portable 00:38:00 For something that so easily could be 100% source compatible, there sure are a lot of incositencies. 00:38:18 Maybe, ya. 00:38:34 But I've played with a number of em, and they're all different. 00:38:45 If they all implemented ANS, then it'd be cool. 00:38:48 oh, well, yeah 00:38:53 it's like scheme 00:39:03 no one wants to build libraries or anything on *top* of it 00:39:10 but everyone wants to write their own interpreter 00:39:15 Heh. Yeah. 00:39:25 Definite description of forth. 00:39:29 C 1 Other languages 0 00:39:55 Heh. 00:40:18 Better not say that too lound in here. :) 00:40:38 I don't see why not 00:40:42 :) yes. better... 00:40:53 j/k 00:41:08 You might get hunted down by one of the forth afficionados. 00:41:16 Heh. 00:41:20 Frac: i like 2 consider 4th a processor architecture 00:41:25 I think the bright ones may see some truth in what I'm saying 00:41:37 onetom: that's a realistic possibility for general work 00:41:45 Ya, interesting idea. 00:41:57 that's about ^10 worse than writing your own forth;-) 00:42:07 Frac: if u consider it as such, u can expect them 2 b compatible 00:42:49 I want a calculator that runs forth on it. 00:42:55 Now THAT would be useful. 00:43:07 Frac: you can get forth for the palm 00:43:13 Hm... 00:43:21 I guess... 00:43:26 Frac: buy a palmtop. a cheap palmpilot eg 00:43:46 Heh. Maybe I can shopl1ft it from future shop. 00:44:48 It would be cool, but a solar powered calculator with actual buttons would be cooler. 00:45:24 buttons? 00:45:42 Frac: the old hps had something forthy on them. 00:45:43 Ya, palmpilots have those touch screens. 00:45:46 u need a normal alphanumerical keyboard 00:45:56 GilbertBSD : Yeah, RPN calculators. 00:46:08 I dunno if you could define words and such on them, though. 00:46:21 onetom : Maybe, yeah... 00:46:32 Frac: have u ever tried a palm? their touch screen is very professional 00:46:39 You could prolly get by with only 6 letters, though. 00:46:39 --- quit: Soap` () 00:46:55 Frac: and the writing recognizer is pretty diligent 00:47:24 Really? Even for people like me who couldn't draw a straight line to save their life? 00:47:47 Frac: probably... iguess... 00:47:58 Maybe I'll look into it. 00:48:15 Frac: u can try the emulator 1st, tho 00:48:29 Emulator? 00:48:33 how cheap is the cheapest Palm that will let you do cool stuph? 00:48:34 Frac: writing w a mouse is much harder then w a stylus 00:48:45 Frac: eeer, simulator? 00:49:07 Oh, ok. Windows program? 00:49:17 http://www.velonews.com/images/int/2177.2115.f.jpg 00:49:23 damn... is that a badass sport or what 00:50:45 You guys ever play with m4? 00:50:47 no 00:50:58 m4 is sweet. 00:51:00 Frac: ewwww 00:51:21 frac what is m4? 00:51:24 It's a preprocessor that lets you make recursive definitions. You've gotta love it just for that. 00:51:52 gimme an example frac 00:52:00 Ok... Let's see... 00:52:34 define(blah, `blah t') blah 00:52:34 anything that has anything to do with ./configure is a good candidate for the crap pile in my book 00:52:45 Will put it an infinite loop. 00:52:49 So that's not cool. 00:52:58 But it can do neater stuff. 00:53:10 real examples I can run 00:53:24 davidw : No, m4 is a standard unix utility. Maybe configure uses it, but it's really neat. 00:53:32 Give it a shot. :) 00:53:35 Erm... 00:53:37 it's not standard, afaik - it's a gnu thing 00:53:37 Ok. 00:53:48 I'd rather use a real language, like Tcl 00:54:14 Nope, m4 was shipped with BSD originally, and GNU made a version themselves. 00:54:27 As did IRIX, AIX, SunOS, etc. 00:54:43 davidw: how about python for a real language? 00:54:46 GilbertBSD : Ok, let's see... 00:54:50 Real examples... 00:55:40 GilbertBSD: that too, but tcl is more adaptable for something like a preprocessor 00:56:00 Well, I'm using it for CGI scripts now, so you do like: define(showpic,`

') 00:56:10 it's more string based, and more flexible (you can create new 'syntax' commands like if, while, etc.. in Tcl itself) 00:56:11 And you can then just do showpic(blah.jpg) 00:56:18 That's a simple example, of course... 00:57:37 are you the only one who uses m4 as a cgi thingamabob? 00:58:32 Erm. Probably not. 00:58:45 hmmm forth is like lego. 00:58:54 you write little 'bricks' and connect them as you go along. 00:59:20 But I'm gonna start writing everything in m4 defines for preprocessing before compiling. It's so... useful... 01:00:13 Trust me: The C preprocessor sucks compared to m4. :) 01:01:06 GilbertBSD : Ya, forth is kinda like lego. 01:01:32 So is any OO language, in a way. 01:02:01 Except often the bricks aren't so little... 01:02:05 but something like this: 20 allocate do this for me 01:02:14 is more like lego than some oo thing. 01:02:19 * GilbertBSD hates OO for now. 01:02:41 Heh. I've always thought of forth as a type of OO language, but oh well. :) 01:03:15 OO has its uses 01:03:37 Ya, it does. I personally don't care for it much, but I think it does. 01:04:48 I like the merging of code and data. Being able to go object.do_something() is cool. 01:06:25 Anyways, back to idling for a few weeks. Laters. :) 01:06:47 hey 01:06:55 Yo. 01:06:56 you idled for n weeks before today! 01:07:26 Heh. Maybe. I dunno. I'm just not really on IRC much. 01:07:44 So I expect it'll be at least a week before I get back here. :) 01:07:54 hmmm . 01:09:03 doh dit dit dit doh dit doh doh dit 01:15:49 buddy of mine who built me 2 custom bicycles when I was racing was/is the tech editor for VeloNews :o) 01:15:59 davidw: do you race? 01:16:58 BigBoyToddy: I used to 01:17:02 davidw: me to. 01:17:08 leonard zinn? 01:17:10 yep 01:17:31 I used to be based out of Boulder, he was in Louisville, and met him thru a mutual buddy in Boulder. 01:17:52 I used to read velonews regularly, but I live in Italy now, and...uh... well, we have la gazzetta dello sport:-) 01:18:11 davidw: you have much better coverage in eu, us coverage of world cycling SUCKs as you know. 01:18:21 why you move to Itali? 01:18:26 it's getting worse here, unfortunately 01:18:40 davidw: too bad, hopefully they are not covering US football more. 01:18:41 soccer soccer soccer, more soccer, and a bit of formula 1 and motorcycle racing:-/ 01:18:49 F1 RULEZ! 01:18:53 BMW rules F1 :o) 01:19:00 McClaren does :o) 01:19:02 I get bored out of my mind watching it 01:19:22 Not me, I love it, because I own 4 BMWs, and cheer for BMW. 01:19:34 I'm a BMW idiot. 01:19:52 LOL 01:19:52 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 01:20:05 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:20:05 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 01:20:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 01:21:00 davidw: glad to meet you, I raced for 4 years full time, made cat 2 here in the states, wanted to go to Europe, but was also in school. So, instead I went into programming full time, cycle ended, I got PHAT and lazy, and 'retired'. Life aint' so bad after all. LOL 01:21:27 hehe 01:24:57 davidw: so why you move to Italy. 01:25:05 because I like it here 01:25:17 cool, really? Just went, liked it and moved? 01:25:38 yep, well, the first time I went, in 95 01:25:45 I tought english to get by 01:25:50 taught 01:25:53 ahaha argh 01:25:53 LOL 01:26:19 then I went back to the states, got a job as a computer programmer... when I had the chance to come back here with a 'real job', I took it 01:32:30 gone private, be back in a minute 01:33:09 --- quit: BigBoyToddy ("See ya folks, it has been nice to chat with you all.") 01:50:46 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-54-195-245.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 01:58:19 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 02:01:05 --- quit: goshawk` (Client Quit) 02:01:42 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 02:28:37 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 02:49:13 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 02:50:47 * rob_ert sees air in #forth. Cool... 03:57:48 :) 05:16:24 --- join: LuckyPhil (~1331-h4x0@203.45.197.55) joined #forth 05:18:03 hello? 05:18:16 bye? 05:18:18 j/k :) 05:18:33 Ahh.. someone is alive :) 05:19:33 Anyone else alive? 05:21:07 guess not 05:26:37 --- quit: LuckyPhil () 05:40:27 "1337 h4x0r" ? 06:06:48 Frac: u still here? 06:07:14 Frac: im a bit lazy 2 read all the logs back, but 06:08:11 Frac: i have 2 tell ya, i use m4 many times. eg, ive written assembler in pure sh, awk & m4 06:08:28 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 06:08:38 Frac: i also have a lil script what resolves 06:08:38 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 06:08:38 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 06:08:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 06:10:26 Frac: require-s in forth sources, so i can feed 1 file into my 4th->asm compiler (what also extensively uses m4) 06:29:59 onetom: isn't m4 fun? heh 06:35:00 yeah, it is :) 06:36:22 I wrote about 2 lines of an assembler in it... decided not to though 06:36:40 didn't feel much like doing it after those two lines heh 06:45:30 tho, u should have written 5 more line & ur assembler would have been done ;p 06:46:01 heh nod :) 06:46:10 lineZ 07:18:55 --- quit: joa (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:20:04 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 07:21:50 --- join: joa (~james@245-118-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net) joined #forth 07:22:24 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:22:24 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 07:22:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 07:29:24 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 07:29:35 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:29:35 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 07:29:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 07:33:39 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=a8vvlu02ac2%40enews4.newsguy.com 07:52:54 MrReach: cool stuff:-) 07:53:10 having something forth-like be the backend to tcl would be too cool 07:57:02 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 07:57:11 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:57:11 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 07:57:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 07:57:37 * MrReach nods 09:17:10 --- join: juu (ammu@62.165.189.112) joined #forth 09:21:25 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@ppp-159-16.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 09:26:13 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:26:48 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 09:36:19 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:55:19 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-78.dacor.net) joined #forth 09:57:32 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 10:34:43 --- join: kc5tja (kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 10:52:42 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-78.dacor.net) joined #forth 10:53:04 hullo 10:53:15 MURR! 10:53:35 MURR to you too 10:54:59 --- quit: air ("AIRC v0.2.0pre -- http://www.qzx.com/airc") 10:55:06 htank you :) 10:55:20 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:57:01 mou.. 10:57:20 is there a way of seeing the instructions a chip has ? 10:58:20 GilbertBSD: yes, getting the reference manual 10:58:56 what if you are stuck in Afghanistan and you can't get a manual? 10:59:30 uh... sell the chip and get the hell somewhere less screwed up 10:59:54 no the buyer wants to see its instructions first. 11:00:04 you could take some raw opium with yuo and reselll it for lots of $$$ 11:00:33 no the buyer is very religious and only wants a chip to complete a smart bomb with 11:00:56 shoot him and take his cash 11:00:58 he has promised me land and women. 11:01:20 his thugs are standing nearby. Ever watchful. 11:04:27 you could try reverse engineering it 11:04:53 put junk in, see if something happens 11:04:54 how would I go about that? 11:04:59 hmm. 11:05:05 good question, but I bet it's a bitch, if it's a complex chip 11:05:12 what is the practical application of this, anyway? 11:05:22 how to build an asm from scratch. 11:05:42 and put a forth on top of that. 11:05:52 well, you really need the reference manual! 11:06:18 all the instructions are in binary is that not so? 11:06:58 yes 11:07:36 so could one go through it one at a time? 11:08:00 no 11:08:05 you don't even know how long they are 11:08:24 let's run this by you again: 11:08:25 what is the most basic information one needs to do that? 11:08:31 * find the reference manual * 11:08:41 * GilbertBSD scratches his head. 11:08:50 whatever the hell happened to exploration? 11:08:59 whatever 11:09:07 how long do you want it to be then? 11:09:46 --- nick: GilbertBSD -> GilbertMystik 11:12:36 okay its a byte 11:12:39 00000000 11:12:57 can one go through all the way to 11111111 and know or uncover all the instructions? 11:13:55 heh. 11:14:33 whadya think klooie? 11:14:56 i think this shouldn't be undertaken. 11:15:11 davidw: I got the idea from you btw so stay with me. you could try reverse engineering it 11:15:11 put junk in, see if something happens 11:15:14 why klooie? 11:15:33 what's the point to it, Gilbert? 11:16:16 klooie: doing it for the heck of it. 11:16:21 does that not happen anymore? 11:16:58 i'm alive for the heck of it. 11:17:15 alive? 11:17:16 what 11:17:19 Indeed you are. 11:17:27 can geeks be alive and code at the same time? ;) 11:17:36 juu: I am not a geek. 11:17:40 jk 11:17:41 i know 11:20:04 hmm, my wrist hurts. 11:20:23 klooie: cease and desist 11:20:31 it doesn't like emacs. 11:20:37 use vim or ed 11:20:45 all that control-meta-hyper-alt-everything. 11:21:41 my mind prefers emacs, different body parts and their opinions. 11:22:06 klooie: emacs is a mind twister. Have you seen a picture of RMS? 11:22:12 you don't wanna be like him do you? 11:22:16 * klooie smiles. 11:22:16 use vim ... 11:22:22 vim ... 11:23:14 well, there's M-x viper-mode. 11:24:31 its face says vi, its heart says emacs. 11:24:39 you want something that won't turn on you ... 11:24:50 hehe. 11:25:30 i don't really know vim, but use nvi daily. 11:25:52 vim comes closer to being a development environment i know, but i highly doubt it can rival emacs (for what i do). 11:25:54 vim has syntax hilighting and folding. 11:26:03 what do you do? 11:26:43 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@ppp-132-4.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 11:26:47 it's still an editor, not windowing system / operating system / lisp machine that emacs is. :) 11:27:22 i don't mean to start the usual discussion, my point is that i don't see them as being in the same space really. 11:27:52 well, lisp amoung other things. 11:28:12 klooie: vim is the only editor I use. 11:28:19 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:28:31 *nod* kc5tja, and may it serve you long and well. 11:28:42 emacs is an elisp machine first. 11:28:50 and then grudgingly other lisps. 11:28:58 * kc5tja just implemented a new block editor for Forth that uses a VI-like keybinding setup. However, it's expandable to use Emacs-ish conventions if you want. 11:29:05 yep, (require 'cl) (require 'eieio) :) 11:29:13 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 11:29:26 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 11:29:26 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 11:29:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 11:29:33 klooie: do you write lisp programs? 11:29:39 kc5tja have you made irc plugin yet? 11:29:43 i'm learning, and loving it. 11:29:47 oh I see. 11:30:01 are you reading sicp or what? 11:30:05 juu: 99.995% of Forth environments haven't a clue what a socket is, let alone write an IRC plug-in for it. :) 11:30:50 Especially since I've compiled the editor for Pygmy Forth, which on my laptop, has zero network connectivity anyway. 11:30:53 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 11:31:08 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 11:31:08 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 11:31:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 11:31:13 * kc5tja just made the announcement for VIBE on comp.lang.forth -- should show up in a few hours. 11:31:38 I have GForth sources in file format, and Pygmy sources in block format (written using VIBE of course!) 11:31:38 yeah i have, sicp uses scheme though. 11:31:40 kc whats so hard about sockets btw? 11:31:40 so you read sicp and are now learning cl or elisp? 11:31:40 i'm not quite as fresh as that, i've read at least over 5 lisp books but it's hard to really get into (i find). 11:31:40 hmmm just read Guy Steele's book . 11:31:40 that should cover everything adequately ;) 11:31:41 sure, the gentle introduction, successful lisp, cltl, on lisp, etc. 11:31:51 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 11:31:52 having a book on your desk that covers something is different from understanding though. :) 11:32:04 what is so hard to understand? 11:32:09 * GilbertMystik never quite got lisp either. 11:32:17 * GilbertMystik listens attentively. 11:32:25 :D 11:32:39 not any particular construct of the language, more the lispy way of doing things. 11:32:41 GilbertMystik: Theoretically, nothing. Practically, it's a very mind-bending API. It makes sense once you wrap your mind around it; but wrapping your mind around it is the more or less difficult part. 11:32:55 i made the mistake of mixing scheme and cl.. 11:33:13 kc so what does one need to understand it? the RFC's and the C sources? 11:33:17 the similar syntax is deceptive and hides the differences. 11:33:21 has it ever been implemented in asm? 11:34:04 klooie: you could write a lisp in scheme. 11:34:27 i was thinking of forth, actually. 11:34:32 writing a lisp in forth? 11:34:37 GilbertMystik: No. You need to sit down with a good book on sockets programming. There is a huge amount of detail covered in the sockets API, and even more that isn't (it's covered in the POSIX API, such as ioctl(), and fcntl()). You need to set up signal handlers to trap certain events if you want to be robust, you need to detach your process from the current process group so you can become a proper daemon, etc... It's a lot of leg-work. All details. 11:34:43 probably scheme in forth, cl is horribly complex to implement. 11:34:55 GilbertMystik: And WinSock is different still. 11:37:42 yeah, scheme in forth! 11:37:47 so if and when it is written once and put in the public domain, all forth would benefit no? 11:38:39 GilbertMystik: Yes and no. The vocabulary might get standardized and adopted as "comus" (Common usage), but the implementation is highly, highly, highly, highly OS dependent. 11:39:14 The reason is each OS has different methods of invoking system calls. 11:39:41 implementing scheme should not be that much of a challenge, i have read a book about it and will largely follow it. 11:39:53