00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.05 00:20:55 --- quit: tomka ("[BX] Have you huggled your BitchX today?") 00:56:42 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-67.dacor.net) joined #forth 01:19:47 --- nick: MrNap -> MrReach 01:20:21 Good morning Mr. Reach 01:20:26 hihi! 01:20:50 just getting ready for bed, spending a few moments thinking about what I want to accomplish next week. 01:21:22 thats interesting.. writing a script for next week ;) 01:25:25 what does your script do? 01:29:13 nothing so far. 01:29:24 I thought deeply about it. 01:29:37 I am currently inert 01:29:52 heh 01:30:43 all I have to do is pick a date to move to florida. 01:30:58 but I wanna finish reading Starting Forth first. 01:31:10 where are you now? 01:31:15 and why Florida? 01:32:49 Ohio ... 01:32:55 its warmer there :D 01:33:14 good thinking ... I've been considering Puerto Rico, myself 01:33:41 my preferred destination is Barbados or Bermuda, but I have to get my degree first. 01:33:52 I have about 39 hours to go. 01:34:00 heh 01:34:05 Bermuda is tough 01:34:09 why? 01:34:22 what's your citizenship? 01:34:30 land ownership, no cars 01:34:51 I am not bermudese if thats what you're wondering... 01:34:59 I wanna live there for a year or two ;) 01:35:02 sunshine, beaches ... 01:35:09 and ogling :D 01:35:17 --- part: SteveA left #forth 01:35:23 Bermuda is owned by Britain 01:35:39 ah yes. 01:36:10 not sure about barbados, never done any research on it 01:37:37 I spent last christmas in key west ... 01:37:47 and I simply loved the carribeans there and then 01:37:48 how did you like it? 01:38:10 I grew up on a ship in the Carribean 01:38:14 miss it 01:38:15 really? 01:38:24 I didn't wanna come back to Ohio. 01:38:36 I didn't even need to come back to Ohio. I should have stayed. 01:39:11 sch descisions are better not made in the moment 01:39:17 some deliberation is good 01:39:49 --- quit: Soap` () 01:40:02 yes indeed. But it turns out I can move to florida afterall! 01:40:08 so I should have stayed to begin with ;) 01:40:18 one of my first memories is getting hit in the side of the face by a flying fish that was attracted to the porchlight on the afterdeck 01:40:47 I was probably 4-5 01:41:01 that must have been some life you got to lead! 01:41:21 my father's life, yes 01:41:29 I'm not nearly as adventurous 01:43:58 --- join: FredrikH (~fredrik@h49n1fls34o1112.telia.com) joined #forth 01:44:07 there is also always the USVI 01:44:35 yes, that is a possibility ... but farther out than I wanted to get 01:44:44 I really appreciate Fed-Ex 01:46:07 Where can I find good tutorials of Forth? And compilers? 01:46:28 FredrikH: what kind of compilers? 01:46:57 you want good tutorials of forth and good tutorials of compilers? 01:46:58 jim, no ifrs 01:47:03 no idea i mean 01:47:08 err 01:47:08 no 01:47:09 hehe 01:47:29 check taygeta 01:47:38 FredrikH: ok, so you want a tutorial, and a forth to play with. yes? 01:47:39 I want to learn Forth, and maybe I need a compiler to compile my HelloWorld programs 01:47:44 yes :) 01:47:50 http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html 01:47:50 got linux? 01:47:55 yed 01:48:03 debian by chance? 01:48:08 MrReach: thanks i will check it 01:48:09 jim: yes 01:48:16 apt-get install gforth 01:48:21 ah! :) hehe, thanks 01:48:22 FredrikH: you dont' need a forth 01:48:27 there is one right here. 01:48:32 gforth: .( Hello world ) 01:48:36 GilbertBSD: Hello world 01:48:46 gforth: : t ." Hello world!" ; t cr t 01:48:48 see? try it too. 01:48:49 MrReach: Hello world! 01:48:49 MrReach: Hello world! 01:49:08 err, haha. I don't know anything about this language :D 01:49:18 FredrikH: what do you want to know? 01:49:24 gforth: 1 2 3 4 .s 01:49:25 The basics 01:49:27 jim: <4> 1 2 3 4 01:49:27 a lot can be demonstrated using the gforth bot 01:49:49 Is it an at run-time interpreted language? Like perl? 01:49:50 gforth: . 01:49:53 jim: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 01:49:53 jim: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Invalid memory address 01:49:53 jim: . 01:49:53 jim: ^ 01:49:53 jim: Backtrace: 01:50:17 FredrikH: sortof 01:50:20 I wish that error was labeled "stack underflow" 01:50:32 jim: ok 01:51:06 Well, I will try to find some tutorials and get gforth. Thank you all for the introduction :) 01:51:16 FredrikH: forth gives you a stack to play with 01:51:29 and a dictionary 01:51:41 there are perhaps 50-100 operations 01:51:56 ok 01:51:58 most of them also play with the stack, in various ways 01:52:11 the stack and memory, yes 01:52:36 oh, interesting 01:52:48 you can create new operations which are defined in terms of existing ones 01:53:05 and use them exactly as if they were part of the language 01:53:14 because once you define them... 01:53:16 they are 01:53:37 oh, hehe, seems complicated 01:54:05 the stack is like a pile of dishes 01:54:20 Yeah, LIFO 01:54:28 right? :) 01:54:31 the weight of a dish is sorta relevent, since it's easier to get to the top one 01:54:44 heh 01:55:31 there are arithmetic and logic operations, most of which remove two stack items, combine them in some way, and place a result on the stack 01:55:48 examples: + - * / and or 01:56:40 you -directly- get to manipulate the stack: put numbers on the stack by typing numbers 01:56:43 1 2 3 4 5 01:56:59 puts them on the stack in the order they occur 01:57:00 oh. I played around with dc yesterday (or maybe the day before that). Is it similar to that? (The arithmetic-part) 01:57:20 so 5 is on top 01:57:21 dc = the math-program 01:57:30 ok 01:57:35 haven't played with it lately enuf 01:57:40 k 01:57:52 so: if I do: 01:57:53 + 01:57:59 the stack becomes 01:58:02 1 2 3 9 01:58:10 so: if I do: 01:58:15 * 01:58:17 the stack becomes 01:58:26 1 2 27 01:58:43 get the idea? 01:58:50 gforth: 4 5 6 .s + cr .s * cr .s 01:58:53 MrReach: <3> 4 5 6 01:58:54 MrReach: <2> 4 11 01:58:54 MrReach: <1> 44 01:58:56 FredrikH: the whole point of post fix is to avoid the use of parenthesis. 01:58:57 yeah! It is like dc 01:59:07 dc uses postfix 01:59:09 oh 01:59:12 forth uses postfix 01:59:29 therefore postfix is used twice 01:59:30 ah 01:59:45 Where can I get a list of all built-in instructions? 01:59:46 (j/k :) 01:59:51 hehe 01:59:52 type: words 02:00:00 gforth: words 02:00:02 * klooie wakes up. 02:00:02 oaurgh :D 02:00:03 jim: simulated-key append-char append-input set-input key-input >key-input 02:00:05 jim: #key-input system disasm disassembler base-addr show-name default-32bit 02:00:05 jim: default-16bit default-16bit? col w@ (D.) MAXCOUNTED SPCS SPCS-MAX 02:00:05 jim: maxstring end-code ;code (;code) code init-asm assembler 02:00:05 jim: print-backtrace backtrace-return-stack init-backtrace backtrace-rs-buffer 02:00:07 FredrikH: also there is a forth word called see 02:00:16 .. chipchuck left while i slept eh? :) 02:00:21 gforth: forth words 02:00:24 jim: simulated-key append-char append-input set-input key-input >key-input 02:00:24 jim: #key-input system disasm disassembler base-addr show-name default-32bit 02:00:24 jim: default-16bit default-16bit? col w@ (D.) MAXCOUNTED SPCS SPCS-MAX 02:00:24 jim: maxstring end-code ;code (;code) code init-asm assembler 02:00:24 jim: print-backtrace backtrace-return-stack init-backtrace backtrace-rs-buffer 02:00:39 gforth: see ? 02:00:42 GilbertBSD: : ? 02:00:43 GilbertBSD: @ . ; 02:00:56 so in gforth at least, you can see how all words are defined ... 02:01:08 and forth defines words in terms of others and so on and so forth. 02:01:12 gforth: see emit 02:01:15 MrReach: : (emit) 02:01:15 MrReach: outfile-id emit-file drop ; 02:01:15 MrReach: lastxt 02:01:15 MrReach: Defer emit 02:01:24 gforth: see emit-file 02:01:27 MrReach: Code emit-file 02:01:28 MrReach: ( $804D597 ) mov esi , 204 [esp] \ $8B $B4 $24 $4 $2 $0 $0 02:01:28 MrReach: ( $804D59E ) xor eax , eax \ $31 $C0 02:01:28 MrReach: ( $804D5A0 ) mov al , 4 [esi] \ $8A $46 $4 02:01:28 MrReach: ( $804D5A3 ) add esi , # 4 \ $83 $C6 $4 02:01:34 some of it is in asm 02:01:37 oh 02:01:39 the rest are in forth 02:02:08 eg ... 02:02:11 gforth: see + 02:02:14 GilbertBSD: Code + 02:02:14 GilbertBSD: ( $804AE20 ) mov edx , 204 [esp] \ $8B $94 $24 $4 $2 $0 $0 02:02:14 GilbertBSD: ( $804AE27 ) mov eax , 4 [edx] \ $8B $42 $4 02:02:14 GilbertBSD: ( $804AE2A ) add ebp , eax \ $1 $C5 02:02:14 GilbertBSD: ( $804AE2C ) mov eax , 8054A40 \ $A1 $40 $4A $5 $8 02:02:32 the bot truncates at 5 lines of output 02:02:33 so as much of the core is in asm as possible. 02:02:46 yah 02:02:59 and then there are loops and decision structures 02:03:02 ohh, that's why I can't see the words 02:03:10 if then 02:03:26 then Max Index do loop ; 02:03:42 Max Index? 02:04:03 gforth: : t 7 4 DO i . LOOP ; t 02:04:07 MrReach: 4 5 6 02:04:12 gforth: : nn 5 0 do .( Hi Frederik ) cr loop ; 02:04:15 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:16 gforth: : nn 5 0 do .( Hi Frederik ) cr loop ; nn 02:04:20 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:34 use ." ... not .( 02:04:41 ah yes 02:04:53 gforth: : nn 5 0 do ." Hi Frederik " cr loop ; nn 02:04:56 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:56 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:56 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:56 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:04:56 GilbertBSD: Hi Frederik 02:05:00 oh :) hi! 02:05:06 FredrikH: you have enough now, so you'd be able to (1) decide if you want to go further, and (2) take a manual and learn 02:05:07 see? 02:05:17 yes 02:05:42 in python that would have been def nn() for i in range(5): print "Hi Frederik" 02:06:09 FredrikH: if you decide you want it at a fairly deep level, the general wisdom is, you hack it for like 8 hours a day for a month straight 02:06:23 jim, hehe 02:06:51 heh, yuck! 02:07:06 no it doesn't take that long to start using it. 02:07:19 I will search the web for some tutorials, first :P 02:07:25 but it might take that long to master the whole version of forth you have. 02:07:26 looking at the language itself, and taking it apart, seeing how the compiler and interpreter works, how to make compiler words, etc 02:07:48 after the end of that month, you'll understand forth inside and out 02:07:52 * klooie too, is trying to learn forth. 02:07:54 heheh 02:08:09 * GilbertBSD too, is trying to learn forth. 02:08:13 i've read and understood brodie's "starting forth". 02:08:16 you simply can't do that with other languages 02:08:23 know the whole system, that is 02:08:31 klooie: I am on page 120 02:08:44 but it only does simple stuff, i have trouble picturing how a forth program would use complex datastructures. 02:08:56 you have to create your own 02:09:16 which structures are you interested in? 02:09:18 yes but.. how? 02:09:32 no, it doesn't take a month to be able to start using it... in fact, you can start playing now... the month is for total understanding 02:09:36 you can create an array can't you? 02:09:40 sure 02:09:42 you can allot space, but can't free anything without freeing everything allocated after as well? 02:09:48 I think the array is the basic building block for most other types. 02:10:04 well, there's not a heap as far as I know 02:10:04 klooie: yes, if you use ALLOT ... there's also ALLOCATE 02:10:07 how about forth code modifying a tree for instance? 02:10:29 you have to define what your idea of a tree is 02:10:32 how about it? 02:10:36 like the walking and inserting one has to do when adding a node to a red-black tree.. 02:10:58 i have implemented such things in C, assembly, and higher languages but have trouble seeing how i would do it in forth. 02:11:04 meaning you have to define all parts of what that means to forth 02:11:06 perhaps studying an example would help.. 02:11:29 klooie: if you understand the red-black tree well enough, think of it in terms of memory and the stack 02:11:52 wait you've done it in assembly? 02:12:24 keep the address of the current node on the stack 02:12:26 x86 assembly was my primary language for around five years, at one time. 02:12:33 klooie: forth pretty much sits between C and asm 02:12:50 then define words that change that address to the adr of left node, right node, parant node 02:12:50 jim yes, i was happy to see that. :) 02:13:00 klooie: you should get familiar with forth and take the month... 02:13:07 you'll see everything after that 02:13:15 so i should just ALLOCATE instead of ALLOT and pretend forth is assembly? :) 02:13:31 what's ALLOCATE? 02:13:45 a binary tree in the dictionary is of limited use 02:13:46 gforth: see allocate 02:13:48 my question (and difficulty) is also inspired by wanting to learn forth of course, not writing unforthy horrors that happen to work. :) 02:13:49 GilbertBSD: Code allocate 02:13:50 GilbertBSD: ( $804CE70 ) add 204 [esp] , # -4 \ $83 $84 $24 $4 $2 $0 $0 $FC 02:13:50 GilbertBSD: ( $804CE78 ) add esp , # -12 \ $83 $C4 $F4 02:13:50 GilbertBSD: ( $804CE7B ) mov eax , ebp \ $89 $E8 02:13:50 GilbertBSD: ( $804CE7D ) test eax , eax \ $85 $C0 02:14:04 neba mind gforth 02:14:37 ALLOCATE ( n -- adr ior ) ... reserve n bytes of memory from the system, return its address and ior, an implementation defined i/o result code 02:14:57 so it's a heap allocation 02:15:07 what's ior? 02:15:16 ah Dr. Who just saved the world from the Daleks. Again. 02:15:29 Who? 02:15:50 yes Who 02:16:03 ior = i/o result code 02:16:18 if Horton had trouble hearing Dr. Who, the Daleks could exterminate the problem :) 02:16:22 should i do my best to get "thinking forth" somewhere? 02:16:31 0 if successful, a number meaningful to the system if an error 02:16:48 isn't allocate a call to malloc? 02:16:59 the orthogonal word to ALLOCATE is FREE ( adr -- ) 02:17:27 ooops 02:17:31 the orthogonal word to ALLOCATE is FREE ( adr -- ior ) 02:18:23 klooie: sure, why not? it's pretty good... but the month will get you there faster :) 02:18:43 jim: have you done the month yet? 02:18:57 > 22 years ago, yes :) 02:19:00 regrettably i don't have that much time to hack away at stuff these days. 02:19:16 gforth: 1000 ALLOCATE .s throw FREE cr .s throw 02:19:20 MrReach: <2> 134631680 0 02:19:20 MrReach: <1> 0 02:19:22 but i should, yeah. 02:19:36 gforth: 1000000 ALLOCATE .s throw FREE cr .s throw 02:19:40 MrReach: <2> 1075240968 0 02:19:40 MrReach: <1> 0 02:19:49 heh, just allocated a meg, no prob 02:19:55 gforth: 100000000 ALLOCATE .s throw FREE cr .s throw 02:19:59 MrReach: <2> 1075240968 0 02:19:59 MrReach: <1> 0 02:20:12 heh, there's 100 meg 02:20:24 klooie: are you just learning forth for the heck of it? 02:20:34 with unixy overcommitting, that's not very impressive MrReach. :) 02:20:50 ok, let's fill it with 0s 02:21:23 basically, Gilbert. 02:21:30 cool. Me too. 02:21:32 gforth: 100000000 ALLOCATE .s throw dup 100000000 0 fill FREE cr .s throw 02:21:32 i like to use more lofty terms like "broadening my horizon" though. :) 02:21:35 * jim hates that overcommiting thing 02:22:23 jim: so do you write forth code for a living? 02:22:42 gforth: .( test) 02:22:43 crash waiting to happen while the right arm is in silence not knowing what 10,000 other arms are doing :) 02:22:45 MrReach: test 02:23:01 gforth: 10000000 ALLOCATE .s throw dup 10000000 0 fill FREE cr .s throw 02:23:04 MrReach: <2> 1075240968 0 02:23:04 MrReach: <1> 0 02:23:20 * klooie nods to jim. 02:23:21 ok, fills 10,000,000 but not 100,000,000 02:23:30 gforth: 100000000 ALLOCATE .s throw dup 100000000 0 fill FREE cr .s throw 02:23:33 MrReach: <2> 1075240968 0 02:23:34 MrReach: <1> 0 02:23:43 it's nice when you can use some relevant value for sparse indexing, saves some work.. 02:23:43 there, it filled 100,000,000 02:23:52 and it 'optimizes' by spreading out initialization time. :) 02:28:12 GilbertBSD: no, but I did then... WFR showed me how to use his metacompiler, and I implemented a few forths back then 02:28:30 last one I did runs on atari 800s :) 02:32:26 but for that, 3 or 4 of us typed in a 6502 asm listing, and I got the asm parts to all work, I added catch/throw style exception handling and replaced the outer interp and compiler with asm, changed how it worked at the char-by-char level... it was twice as fast at compiling of any 6502 forth I ever saw :) 02:35:56 I am too tired to be here now. 02:36:02 Its off to bed for me 02:36:04 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 02:36:11 same for me in a couple 02:40:08 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-80-6.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 02:51:50 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 03:14:19 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 03:14:50 hej rob_ert 03:15:07 Hejsan 03:15:19 Wow, I still see signs of the Chuck effect! 03:15:31 btw, I didn't know you were a forther, FredrikH 03:15:37 I am not a forther :) 03:16:00 Hehe 03:16:04 Hmm 03:16:19 I don't think svara is either 03:16:22 I asked some questions about forth, and I am still left 03:16:46 Rico screamed he hates Chuck Moore, and started to say that forth sucks :) 03:16:55 oh 03:18:06 Hoi, Rico! 03:18:25 Mr. Moore is a little bit out to lunch in some regards, IMO 03:18:46 out to lunch? 03:18:56 14:49:18 Portability is not important 03:18:56 14:49:24 Portability is not possible 03:18:56 14:49:42 Real applications are closely coupled to hardware 03:19:07 :) 03:19:30 maybe his head is in a different context than mine... 03:19:45 he's certainly opinionated, but i didn't expect anything else from someone who does all his own stuff. 03:19:47 Well, I reacted on that, too... 03:20:55 chuck moore is his own context? :) 03:22:17 he works on hardware and software at the same time, and as a whole. 03:23:03 that's pretty antithetical to portability. 03:33:53 Hmm 03:34:09 Anyone knows how I can debug a program in gforth, by stepping word for word? 03:40:39 rob_ert: I've worked on some debuggers in the past; I don't recall making one all myself, but you still can 03:41:50 you need to get into the internals of the virtual machine to some degree, but that's not hard 03:41:57 Well, I just wondered if there was any built-in debugger 03:42:04 Heh, that's what I'm trying to do 03:42:20 Reading "Moving Forth"... 03:42:28 Nice little text, I must say 03:43:37 dunno. there might be 04:19:03 --- part: svara left #forth 04:34:23 --- join: miket2 (unknown@62.60.121.87) joined #forth 04:34:35 Hi 04:35:35 Hello 04:42:11 Hello 04:42:19 Hi 04:42:22 ;) 04:42:29 hi 04:42:29 Silent in here, isn't it? 04:42:32 hello 04:43:14 Were any of you on last night (UK time) ? 04:43:28 I was 04:43:30 :) 04:44:07 I think most of us was. 04:44:14 Like 60 people were here then 04:44:54 mornin 04:45:10 Morning, 1tom :) 04:45:17 Woke up early, eh? 04:46:00 Did C.Moore say anything about current developements ? I could only stay on for a short while. 04:46:14 there's a log at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.04. 04:46:22 (without last '.', sorry) 04:46:42 thanks for that info 04:46:44 miket2: search for 'chipChuck' 04:49:08 The UK FIg had their 'first saturday of the month' gathering last night, it was suggested we try and join #forth, normally only have half a dozen on #figuk 04:50:07 all: my priv chat w jeff fox, yesterday: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/jeff.html 04:50:34 oink: Didn't mr. Fox talk to you, too= 04:50:57 erm, yeah 04:51:12 he msg'ed me :) 04:52:30 rob_ert: pardon? 04:52:42 rob_ert: ah, got it 04:56:36 * FredrikH is away: lucnh 04:56:41 * FredrikH is back (gone 00:00:05) 04:56:45 * FredrikH is away: lunch 05:05:11 * FredrikH is back (gone 00:08:27) 05:07:23 onetom: that's everyone's chat with jeff :) 05:07:53 jim: then, everyone should share their logs ;) 05:08:39 btw, what do u think, wouldnt it be a good idea 2 chat w eachother while chuck was talking? 05:08:49 it was a bit slow this way i think 05:09:25 onetom: meaning the comments shown are logs from the site... if you had a priv chat with jeff, it's not at the url you gave, something else is :) 05:09:43 we also should have joined into a discusson channel where we could agree on questions 05:09:55 in fact, seems like they were created by | grep fox 05:10:01 and contemplate about the given answers 05:10:13 yes, I was trying to suggest that :) 05:10:28 but that's ok, since there will be a repeat 05:10:35 jim: u r right 05:10:53 jim: and i havent stripped of the irrelevant parts jet 05:10:58 yet :) 05:11:26 but the colored lines r from the priv chat 05:11:31 I took aikido from him for several years while he was head instructor at berk aikido club 05:11:54 colorirc 05:11:55 oh, thats nice :) 05:12:14 my instructor is also a programmer :) 05:12:25 davidw: colorirc? 05:12:34 colored lines 05:12:57 aikido could be kind of like forth... very simple and straightforward, non portable, and all that good stuff 05:13:00 but C is like a gun 05:13:17 sure, it's complex, and you have to oil it... 05:13:36 then Sasaki Sensei came back from Japan... passed away... arranged for a shihan to take over, at 6th dan... might have been promoted since 05:13:41 ok, so it's a contrived and stupid comparison... sigh... I need to get out for a bike ride 05:13:48 Hmm..what did they say again about forth in that "shoot yourself in the foot" joke? 05:14:13 "GUN TAKE FOOT SHOOT" or something like that, iirc :-) 05:14:14 rob_ert: well, C gives you enough rope to do that... 05:14:29 Foot yourself in the shoot. 05:14:43 --- quit: miket2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:15:17 Modula-2 05:15:17 After realizing that you can't actually accomplish anything in this language, you shoot yourself in the head. 05:15:17 foot gun aim shoot 05:15:55 davidw: but that's hardly the case... 05:15:57 :-) 05:17:12 what would be nice is to build small computers with possibilty of ram cards and maybe USB connections (smaller than CD player) and put forth on those... 05:17:53 Just take a PIC and let forth code stream throgh it ;-) 05:17:55 Jeff's original design called for an ethernet interface on the chip that could boot 05:18:24 Ada 05:18:24 If you are dumb enough to actually use this language, the United States Department of Defense will kidnap you, stand you up in front of a firing squad and tell the soldiers, "Shoot at the feet." 05:18:31 Hmm... well, small computers are always nice. 05:18:40 davidw: :D 05:18:46 Where's that page? 05:19:15 rob_ert: I'm talking something in a nice package, with a display, like an organizer... 05:19:22 smalltalk: 05:19:23 You send the message shoot to gun, with selectors bullet and myFoot. A window pops up saying Gunpowder doesNotUnderstand: spark. After several fruitless hours spent browsing the methods for Trigger, FiringPin and IdealGas, you take the easy way out and create ShotFoot, a subclass of Foot with an additional instance variable bulletHole. 05:19:31 http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/joke/foot.htm 05:20:29 jim: Hmm... well, I'd like a real keyboard, too :-) 05:20:53 rob_ert: the forth would have full access to all the hardware, and you could build things like mp3 and ogg players 05:21:33 :-) 05:21:40 I'd like something to just play with 05:21:43 * rob_ert likes toys. 05:23:12 all: what is sourceless code? 05:23:25 Coding in hex/binary? 05:23:33 onetom: altering hex in place 05:23:39 :-) 05:24:13 it's how Steve Wozniac first coded Apple ][ Integer Basic 05:24:17 really? 05:24:27 Heh 05:24:31 Cool 05:25:11 and whats up w src< prg nowdays? 05:25:13 I guess it was Woz, Draper, Hertzfield and a coupla others in Woz's garage 05:25:43 well, if it was none other than that, it still exists in that form :) 05:30:11 unless sourceless is just altering hex code, I didn't get a clear response 05:31:05 Sourceless code... yuck :) 05:31:32 14:09:17 *goshawk`: how did you come to the conclusion that Forth was too complex, and that sourceless programming was your next move? 05:31:57 yes, that's the question that got me to wondering about sourceless 05:32:44 and I guess part of his answer was "I think the problems of software are all solved; hardware has always been the bottleneck" 05:33:02 or something like that 05:33:16 the quote is my paraphrase 05:33:57 --- join: mmc (~mmc@adsl-248-167.38-151.net24.it) joined #forth 05:34:13 and what does that "software are all solved" part mean? 05:34:38 whats that in your reading? 05:35:03 does it mean forth is THE solution? 05:35:57 or he only wanted 2 say all the algorithms r already invented & implemented 05:36:22 --- quit: Latz ("changing servers") 05:47:23 --- part: Rico left #forth 05:52:24 onetom: my guess is the latter, but given his demeanor, I might not be so surprised to find he actually meant the former 05:53:03 but he did say "forth is the best for anything" 05:54:46 Do you think forth should be used as a "general purpose language", for everyday software, or does it belong among embedded devices and other specialised systems? 05:54:46 <-- M-bitter (~mbitter@p5082774F.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #forth 05:54:46 Forth is the best language for all purposes 05:54:46 Because it mimics natural language 05:55:02 not sure true is that am I 05:55:30 I thought it was perl that mimics natural language, in any case;-) 05:55:33 tynsax! 05:56:01 actually, perl is more natural language like 05:56:06 imo, forth doesn't do that well enough without help 05:56:19 which is a good reason why using natural languages with computers is a bad idea;-) 05:56:45 Who here is talking backwards? :-) 05:58:08 yoda award who-gets? mean you 05:59:21 Something like that, yes. 05:59:35 * rob_ert thinks jim can become the next Chuck Moore.... 05:59:56 nonono :) I have my own things to do :) 06:00:19 the least but next of which is to learn the key of Eb :) 06:00:41 Eb? 06:01:25 yep, the fingering patterns are giving me some trouble; I'm looking at a key-indep way to play 06:01:51 except when I shifted keys in this one thing I'm trying to read, I couldn't see anything any more 06:11:56 (trying to visualize chord tones on a bass fingerboard while they move thru different chords) 06:17:58 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:17:58 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 06:19:01 sif: .( :)) 06:19:03 rob_ert: : Word not found: ) 06:19:05 Bah 06:19:23 sif: : love-me ." Love me!" ; love-me 06:19:25 rob_ert: Love me! 06:19:39 * FredrikH is away: I'm busy 06:20:12 Bye 06:21:31 bye 06:25:15 jim: what the heck r u talkin aboutM? 06:25:50 onetom: playing music? 06:26:31 jim: on what instrument? 06:26:34 sif: : foo ." dammit, jim, I'm a bot" cr foo ; 06:26:34 davidw: Word not found: foo 06:26:35 sif: : foo ." dammit, jim, I'm a bot" cr foo ; foo 06:26:36 davidw: Word not found: foo 06:27:02 sif: : foo ." dammit, jim, I'm a bot" cr ; foo 06:27:03 jim: dammit, jim, I'm a bot 06:27:44 sif: : foo ." I'm a foo!" ; : foo ." dammit, jim, I'm a bot" cr foo ; foo 06:27:45 jim: dammit, jim, I'm a bot I'm a foo! 06:30:52 hm, everybody seems tired today... wondering why? :) 06:31:16 u were up l8 last night, dont u, europeans ;) 06:31:25 imean, werent u 06:31:55 anyway, what was that figuk thing? 06:32:04 has it been logged? 06:32:33 sif: : u ." uhoo!" ; : werent ." werent" ; werent u 06:32:34 jim: werentuhoo! 06:35:31 bb... 06:35:36 --- quit: jim (Remote closed the connection) 06:46:20 * FredrikH is back (gone 00:26:42) 07:02:56 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:03:42 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:03:42 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 07:09:40 --- join: juu (ammu@baana-62-165-190-249.phnet.fi) joined #forth 07:12:56 hello 07:13:21 hai 07:16:18 * juu still remember quite good last night :) 07:16:27 CREATE COFFEE even :) 07:16:38 :) 07:16:43 Hm 07:16:49 I got a little question 07:17:09 though, i supposed to boot into linux, but somehow i'm in windows now and then more similar supht :) 07:17:13 woke up 2 pm 07:17:18 well 07:17:23 n/m 07:17:29 Ughh! 07:17:36 You're sick =) 07:17:45 i'm not. 07:17:51 :) 07:17:54 juu. 07:19:58 mmmmmmmmmmmmm 07:20:18 again, juu, rob_ert and oink the only ones to talk 07:20:57 :) 07:21:07 --- quit: juu (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 07:21:10 We scared all the real forthers away 07:21:32 :) 07:21:49 --- join: juu (~username@baana-62-165-190-249.phnet.fi) joined #forth 07:23:08 bad peer bad peer 07:23:21 more likely they code instead of chatting 07:23:30 Yeah 07:23:35 But I read in the beackground 07:23:40 (and code... a forth :D) 07:24:34 --- join: kallu (tatavarty@203.192.206.98) joined #forth 07:24:54 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 07:24:55 whats so special about forth 07:25:03 ask in #forth 07:25:32 'morning 07:25:47 ''morning 07:38:56 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 07:51:09 Hehe 07:51:12 Hello there 07:53:15 hello the_rob 07:53:49 :) 07:54:01 kallu wants to know why forth is so great, tell him ;) 07:54:54 no takers for forth propoganda..i'll stfw ;) 07:55:10 Does , always set the first cell of the parameter block to TOS, or will more than one comma fill the other cells of the parameter block? 07:59:13 i've seen code that does repeated , so i guess it advances. 07:59:15 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:00:30 kallu: it's great because it looks even more like line noise than perl 08:00:46 just kidding 08:01:02 I think it's cool because it's a portable assembly language that can be combined into something higher level 08:03:48 --- quit: klooie ("Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?") 08:10:19 --- quit: bob4th (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:16:25 Hhmmm 08:16:33 How can I make a stand-alone program with gforth? 08:16:41 * rob_ert just made a cool little title-kirby 08:18:27 mmm... 08:18:38 rob_ert: you can't, afaik 08:18:43 OK 08:45:02 --- quit: FredrikH ("Client Exiting") 08:47:51  WAKE.UP EAT.BREAKFAST WORK EAT.DINNER PLAY SLEEP 08:47:59 hehe :) 08:49:28 i doubt variable $%%-GL7OP is very useful :) 08:51:18 Hm 08:51:25 Want to see something nice? 08:51:30 Do you have gforth, juu? 08:51:46 http://ostling.no-ip.com/files/ypn/snippets/title-kirby.f 08:51:48 Download that 08:52:00 append a line with the contents: DANCE 08:52:05 (at the end of the file) 08:52:18 then run gforth like: ./gforth title-kirby.f & 08:52:23 And you will see something nice :-) 08:53:59 ahah 08:54:54 rob_ert i'm in windows 08:54:57 no compiler 08:55:04 AHAH 08:55:07 i want _working_ forth compiler 08:55:09 rob_ert:))) 08:55:24 no _Gnu_ compiler 08:55:29 juu: look in #ase... 08:56:08 #ase ? 08:56:13 assembler 08:56:17 ase is finnish word for weapon 08:57:05 Hmm 08:57:07 Well 08:57:11 gforth is for Windows too 08:57:14 But... 08:57:23 This uses some UNIX things 08:57:53 * juu shoudl download new linux kernel 08:57:57 nad kernel-tools 09:40:27 --- quit: kallu ("Client Exiting") 09:47:15 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 09:49:16 hi 09:51:04 --- join: CrowKilr (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 09:51:35 heyhe 09:56:36 rob_ert: that 1 doesnt work 4 me :( 10:13:36 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust134.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:13:37 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:14:03 cool. the channel still looks bigger :) 10:14:12 hey hi oink welcome to my humble abode :) 10:14:14 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 10:14:38 hey :D 10:15:17 --- join: WFR (WFR@user-38lc245.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 10:20:39 --- quit: WFR () 10:21:25 --- part: bob4th left #forth 10:22:51 --- join: WFR (WFR@user-38lc245.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 10:23:14 --- quit: WFR (Client Quit) 10:24:10 wfr! 10:24:15 oopts 10:24:18 wfr ? 10:24:20 oops :) 10:24:31 wfr is an old forther 10:24:44 im trying to remember his name hehe 10:24:51 bill something or other 10:24:51 bah :D 10:25:01 h wrote the fig 6502 forth 10:25:03 Bill Ragsdale 10:25:06 tes 10:25:10 correct 10:25:29 i got no idea why i couldnt remember that name heh 10:25:33 how did you know it :P 10:25:43 heh 10:25:49 /whowas WFR 10:25:50 :D 10:25:55 my father has been a fan of WFR's for a long time 10:26:02 wow 10:26:05 my father used his forth to automate a factory 10:26:25 i wish i could have a geek as father.. 10:26:32 so i can show him what i know ;D 10:26:47 wow 10:27:15 hm :) 10:29:54 lol 10:30:02 my dad is an electronics engineer 10:30:07 he also taught me forth 10:30:18 but i taught him 99% of what he knowas about coding in assembler 10:30:58 but he puts me to shame sometimes with what he knows and what he can do :) 10:31:01 bastard :P 10:31:03 grrr 10:35:39 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 10:35:41 hey. 10:35:58 ah, forth advocacy in the topic. :) 10:36:54 klooie :) 10:38:00 i'm reading this huge thread on comp.lang.lisp where quite a few people whom i thought quite smart are displaying that they don't know what "call-by-value" means. 10:38:14 lol 10:38:24 errrr... whussuit mean??? (lol) 10:38:25 * klooie recommends it, for shock value. 10:38:54 i think its stupid to put named on everything 10:39:49 forth is special, passing stuff around by leaving it on the stack. 10:40:04 neway - i need to go do some gun-smithing - the BATF arrive tuesday! - want this finished by then! 10:40:22 klooie in forth you dont REALY need variables 10:40:44 and the less you use them the L337er you are :) 10:40:54 * klooie nods. 10:40:58 but sometimes its easier to think the code out if you use them 10:41:08 chuck said something to the effect of: if you need to name stuff, you're not being imaginative. 10:41:13 yes 10:41:30 i saw that and i think thats going to be quoted ALOT in the future :) 10:41:39 neway brb 10:41:40 * klooie bows. 10:41:45 have a nice sunday i440r. 10:43:47 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 10:49:20 can someone explain to me the weird instruction constant definition inside color.asm of Chuck Moore's colorForth? 10:49:56 CrowKilr: what version what line? 10:50:22 19:29] < I440r> grrr 10:50:23 :)))) 10:50:42 dd (((177o shl 7+140o)shl 7+146o)shl 7+142o)shl 4 ; ?dup 10:50:51 i dont understand this 10:51:10 this kind of formating... whats the point of doing it like this?! 10:51:36 looks weird indeed :) 10:51:41 is it 177 octal shifted left by 7+140octal? 10:52:50 it also seemd strange 4 me, tho it must b the heart of all that stuff 10:55:01 me either heh 10:55:08 oh 10:55:57 klooie thanx have a nice sunday yourself heh 10:57:06 177 octal is $7f hex 10:57:39 i know how tu use my windoze calculatir too ;p 10:57:39 140 octal is $60 hex 10:57:44 imnot using windows 10:57:46 im using isforth 10:57:50 \177 h. 10:57:53 \140 h. 10:58:01 anotther example 10:58:05 another example 10:58:06 dd (((140o shl 4+1)shl 4+3)shl 7+142o)shl 10 ; drop 10:58:17 its supposed to look like a lodsd opcode 10:58:27 because drop is lodsd 10:58:44 i dont have tasm so i cant verify this 10:58:45 oh my god he is doing the x86 instrucion encoding BY HAND!!!! 10:59:22 its easier than you think im writing some macros to do that in NASM 10:59:39 i dont know why he putted that in this cryptic form 10:59:57 its useless, at least i think lol 11:01:02 lol 11:01:02 (offtopic) 82.5% for chirac, french presidentials ! 11:01:03 :D 11:01:08 i gtg off line 11:01:16 oink you dont need to say (oftopic) 11:01:22 this channel is TOTALLY unmoderated 11:01:28 OH-kay. 11:01:33 you are hereby permitted to even talk POLATICS !!!!! 11:01:33 lol 11:01:39 :DDD 11:01:43 newway, ive gtg offline 11:01:47 need to free up the fone 11:01:54 if WFR comes back tell him i said hi 11:02:01 --- quit: I440r ("meep meep!") 11:02:47 onetom: What's wrong? 11:03:49 rob_ert: that DANCE stuff 11:03:59 Hmm 11:04:04 Did you use gforth? 11:04:12 In a Linux terminal= 11:04:16 s/=/?/ 11:05:10 It changes the title of an xterm 11:05:21 So I guess it's kind of unportable 11:05:36 But like Chuck said, who the hell needs portability ;))) 11:07:29 rob_ert: sure, from x term 11:07:41 rob_ert: but it just beeps 11:08:03 Heh 11:08:08 That's strange 11:08:15 It worked for me, and another guy. 11:08:19 :-( 11:17:58 hello, what's forth good at ? 11:18:18 kirbys ! 11:18:22 Making dancing ascii pictures for you xterm. 11:18:27 rob_ert: :DDD 11:18:31 oink: xDD 11:18:45 Well, seriously... 11:18:50 .. 11:18:53 Chuck Moore said it's good for everything :-) 11:19:09 i think that about scheme. 11:19:16 I don't know scheme... 11:19:42 scheme has powerfull macros. 11:19:54 and loves recursion. 11:20:07 But I think the things you can code in assembly language, you should code in assembly language. Else you should use C :-) 11:20:17 They'll hang me for that, but who cares? 11:20:31 else you should use forth you mean ;p 11:20:39 ;) 11:21:10 I think forth is the most magical of the computer languages I've seen... 11:21:19 you're very unclear. 11:21:22 But I have yet to be convinced it can actually be used ;) 11:22:15 im trying to make a machine forth system ion one sector 11:22:20 for the x86 11:22:40 Nice...what's a machine forth system? 11:22:52 As opposed to a normal forth system... 11:23:30 i meant the virtual instrcutions 11:23:37 implemented in colorforth 11:24:06 i already got a20 line enabled and segmentation in protected mode removed 11:24:38 all in NASM code 11:24:43 Oh...heh, one-sector systems usually use real mode :) 11:24:46 im so proud of myself ;pppp 11:24:49 ;) 11:25:20 anyway i must quit 11:25:35 ill come back soon 11:25:45 --- nick: CrowKilr -> Crow|away 11:25:56 Bye. 11:29:41 Crow|away: wow, thats sounds great! 11:30:25 I'm doing to do something like that too, but using my old OS code as base and without the size limit.. 11:30:29 going* 11:31:47 robert 11:31:55 2-1 to finland :) 11:32:09 So? 11:32:12 Who cares? 11:32:15 you do 11:32:19 Me? 11:32:23 What sport? 11:34:53 Hey, onetom or anyone who knows forth... How can the CREATE word inside a CONSTANT see what words that comes after the CONSTANT word? 11:35:13 Because it's intermediate (or whatever that was called..)? 11:36:17 Is CONSTANT actually run when you compile something like "5 CONSTANT FIVE" ? 11:37:43 rob_ert: sec 11:38:45 --- join: Bob (~bobkey@217.147.2.142) joined #forth 11:38:50 rob_ert: what? 11:39:15 rob_ert: create uses PARSE 2 get the next word 11:39:52 oh 11:40:08 And PARSE is a part of the compiler? 11:40:25 rob_ert: no 11:40:39 What is it then? 11:40:40 why should it be? 11:40:49 Well 11:40:50 WHat is it? 11:41:03 its just a simple loop what scans the source code 11:41:32 (the terminal input buffer in the well know "reference" implementation) 11:41:34 Okay. 11:41:44 reference implementation? 11:42:20 iwas refering the 1 in starting forth 11:42:28 Hm, KO 11:42:29 OK 11:42:37 Where can I get code for the basic forth words? 11:42:39 probably thats the most well know variant 11:42:42 Such as create and sutff 11:43:00 rob_ert: eg, in gforth src but i dont recommend it 11:43:04 Hmm 11:43:06 isforth maybe? 11:43:14 rob_ert: rather have a look @ minimal.f83 11:43:24 in TILE (4th) 11:43:38 isforth is written mostly in asm 11:43:56 so its not the best 4 educational purposes i think 11:44:00 I love asm... well, Tile forth can be found at FIGs page? 11:44:17 or anywhere, but dl it from me 11:44:25 OK :) 11:44:26 coz it has many variants 11:44:58 OK, just give me an URL to your page. 11:45:19 sec 11:45:30 Sure 11:45:34 Thanks alot :) 11:46:12 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz 11:46:22 Thanks :) 11:46:35 Hi all! Can anybody say me how I can download FAVR Forth Compiler by firm "Specialtysensors"? 11:46:37 its written in C 11:46:51 onetom: But the code I want is in forth? 11:46:56 so it reasonably clean 11:47:17 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 11:47:19 Hey 11:47:41 rob_ert: u can find the TILEs own CREATE and also 11:47:46 hi futhin :) 11:47:54 hi all :) 11:47:58 heya onetom 11:48:01 :-) 11:48:15 rob_ert: there is an example of a forth virtual machine written in forth based on just nine primitives 11:48:15 we've gone from 40 people down to 20 people? booo :( 11:48:23 20 ppl is still pretty good though :) 11:48:25 Hehe 11:48:28 Yeah 11:48:33 rob_ert: that should also serve as a beautiful example 11:48:35 Chuck effect isn't completley over yet 11:48:49 onetom: Included in that tarball? 11:48:55 rob_ert: yup 11:49:00 That one you did? 11:49:13 rob_ert: nooohho 11:49:17 Hehe 11:49:32 rob_ert: a better and a more complete -tho also a bit more complicated- 1 11:49:45 Hm, OK 11:49:54 rob_ert: mine focuses only on the threaded code, but nothin else 11:50:06 Do you know what the files are called? 11:50:15 rob_ert: pardon? 11:50:22 The files I want.. 11:50:25 Do you know the names? 11:50:30 rob_ert: the 4th in 4th is tst/minimal.f83 11:50:46 onetom: do you think of a forth kernel being the same thing as a virtual machine? :) 11:50:49 Okay.. thankyou :-) 11:51:06 the tile srcz themselves can b found under src certainly 11:51:18 futhin: yup 11:51:20 Cool 11:51:23 futhin: the inner interpreter 11:51:23 written in Sweden :)) 11:51:41 rob_ert: it happens some times :) 11:51:45 ;) 11:51:58 All swedes don't suck as hard as I do on coding, luily 11:51:59 er 11:52:02 luckily 11:52:39 \ This program is free software; you can redistribute it and\or modify 11:52:40 \ it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by 11:52:40 \ the Free Software Foundation; either version 1, or (at your option) 11:52:40 \ any later version. 11:52:41 Haha 11:52:43 Version 1 :) 11:52:48 This is old stuff 11:52:58 Early GPL software :) 11:53:52 ? r u swedish? not finnish? 11:54:09 I am swedish... juu is from Finland. 11:54:20 Hehe 11:54:20 rob_ert: yeah, its considered rather obsolete, but still dont know why :( 11:54:23 .telia.com :) 11:54:47 rob_ert: coz its so beautiful clean logical ... 11:54:54 --- nick: Fare -> Fare61453 11:55:12 rob_ert: telia. right. and what then? dont know whats that 11:55:42 That's the former telephone company of the swedish state 11:55:59 oy c 11:57:02 Hm 11:57:15 Does it stand which those 9 primitives are? 11:58:03 * rob_ert doesn't understand much at all 11:58:09 =( 11:59:00 : -> ( x -- ) ' >body [compile] literal compile ! ; immediate compilation 11:59:09 That looks like smileys :-/ 11:59:48 --- join: s[e]th (s_e_th@AAubervilliers-103-1-5-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 11:59:53 --- quit: s[e]th (Client Quit) 12:00:09 Bob> Hi all! Can anybody say me how I can download FAVR Forth Compiler by firm "Specialtysensors"? 12:00:31 --- join: s[e]th (s_e_th@AAubervilliers-103-1-5-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 12:00:32 Bob: Sorry, no idea :( 12:00:34 hiho 12:00:38 Hey :)( 12:01:19 hey s[e]th 12:01:27 how's it going? :) 12:01:33 futhin! 12:01:36 Hm 12:01:51 You don't happend to know where I can get those words explained? 12:01:55 i want to know how i can use a forth's inbterpreter as a kernel 12:02:15 how have i to load the interpreter in memory after boot 12:02:22 someone can help ? 12:02:39 ah.. 12:02:58 calling it a kernel doesn't mean it's an os or bootable or whatever 12:03:05 kernel means something different heh 12:03:06 but um.. 12:03:10 Put some code in the boot sector that loads your program? :-) 12:03:20 you want to code a forth interpreter and boot it up? 12:03:27 yes 12:03:32 or you want to use a forth somebody else has made? 12:03:48 Well, futhin...did you know anything about those words? I'd really like to know what they do :/ 12:03:50 s[e]th: do you know asm? or do you want to code it all in forth or something? 12:04:08 rob_ert: what, you want to know the 9 words of the very minimal forth kernel? 12:04:19 Well, not really 12:04:28 I want some words explained 12:04:36 rob_ert: well tell me the words :P 12:04:39 Do you know any good page? 12:04:39 i want to use a already programmed forth interpreter and insert it in memory with a bootstrap i can program 12:04:40 Hehe 12:04:41 Well 12:04:45 ' 12:04:48 >body 12:04:50 execute 12:04:56 code to body of word 12:04:56 literal 12:04:57 compile 12:05:05 ' = execute ? 12:05:13 literal = compiles as it is.. number or something 12:05:20 yes ' = execute 12:05:25 ah, cool 12:05:27 well 12:05:34 >body then? 12:05:43 To body of word? 12:05:45 Hm 12:05:49 you pass the address of the word and "execute" it with ' 12:06:02 yeah, with >body you put code into a word 12:06:03 i think 12:06:05 i'm guessing though 12:06:16 hmm, OK 12:06:19 how does literal work? 12:06:38 or maybe you pass an address to >body.. who knows.. it's certainly used at the very low-level of forth operations 12:06:58 That's what I'm interested of :) 12:07:17 when you put a number in forth, the parser will look to see if it is in the dictionary, if it's not, it'll check if it is a number, if it is, it compiles it "literally" 12:07:19 Like I440r said, coding forth without understanding forth isn't too good :) 12:07:22 it compiles it as it is.. 12:07:43 rob_ert: just do a google search ">body forth" 12:07:47 or some such 12:07:48 Okay 12:07:49 :) 12:07:51 hm 12:07:52 maybe you'll find a good page 12:08:01 rob_ert: owhat words exactly 12:08:04 I saw in Speuler's code something like that 12:08:20 onetom: There are some words I don't quite understand in that example 12:08:25 Want a list? :) 12:09:09 in what example 12:09:12 [compile] and compile then? 12:09:18 That forth written in forth 12:09:27 \ A MINIMAL FORTH MACHINE SIMULATOR AND META-COMPILER 12:09:27 \ 12:09:27 \ Copyright (C) 1989-1990 by Mikael R.K. Patel 12:09:34 oh.. url ? 12:09:57 Got it from onetim 12:09:58 tom 12:10:09 ok 12:10:09 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz 12:10:41 tst/minimal.f83 12:12:11 rob_ert: oops, sorry for that: : CREATE ( -- ) create ; 12:12:14 :) 12:12:29 hrm 12:12:30 then have a look @ tile srcz 12:12:35 How is : written in forth? 12:12:36 eww... case sensitive?! 12:12:38 eww... case sensitive?! 12:12:44 case sensitive = evil 12:12:48 He3he 12:12:52 just a lil bit, but yes ;) 12:13:01 : CREATE create ; dumb 12:13:06 futhin: i dont think so 12:13:16 and : create (create) ; (as in other forths) also dumb 12:13:27 they should use vocabularies better or something 12:13:28 like 12:13:43 : create lowvocab create ; 12:13:48 futhin: eg, i all the time write the identifiers in -eg pascal program- w the same form as they were defined 12:13:49 or something less lame like that 12:13:50 re 12:14:11 futhin.. familiar nick, have you been on #osdev ? 12:14:12 so its not a big deal 2 accomodate 2 case sensitiveness 12:14:33 juu, he were afair 12:15:31 afair? 12:15:40 i have been on #osdev 12:15:47 do u know afaik? 12:15:55 yes 12:15:56 :) 12:16:09 but i use iirc = if i remember correctly 12:16:12 so r @ the end is Remember or Recall 12:16:40 sometimes me 2 12:16:54 * rob_ert 2 12:17:17 --- part: witten left #forth 12:18:43 onetom: you could write a script that converts your typing into full english :P 12:19:05 i could but i wont 12:19:05 onetom: you know the question i passed to chuck moore.. wasn't very easy to read 12:19:25 all the questions you gave me, you should've typed them in full.. 12:19:27 Hehe 12:19:27 i consider "full english" deprecated 12:19:28 just to make it easier 12:19:53 mine version -tho needs some training- is faster, more consise 12:19:57 Make a bot that translates onetom's english to real english :-) 12:20:16 and requires more processing power from the readers side 12:20:34 real english is old english, ithink :) 12:20:47 onetom: and why do you want the readers to spend more processing power? :P 12:21:09 futhin: but still chuck understood it :p (except 1 :))) 12:21:24 futhin: because they have! ;) 12:21:31 futhin: while i dont :P 12:21:40 lies he 12:21:41 heh 12:21:48 futhin: but seriously, i dont want them 2 b so lazy 12:22:31 meaning, people who can't understand you aren't worth your time :P 12:22:36 hmm. 12:22:56 "2 b" and so on reminds me of 1980's warez bbses and current hiphop albums. 12:23:00 the ability of decoding my style make any1s mind more fresh ithink 12:23:16 yes true 12:23:23 my mind is fresher :P 12:23:23 neither association is very good. :) 12:23:36 klooie: u r right, it resembles those stuff, but who cares 12:23:45 its still compact & efficient 12:24:14 --- quit: s[e]th (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:24:37 futhin: yeah, roughly :O 12:27:22 klooie: i hate discrimination, so i love 2 make ppl shy by makein them realize they did discrimination 12:27:57 how so, onetom? 12:28:09 so long as we aren't expect to read onetom fluently 12:28:48 * juu might learn forth totally tomorrow 12:28:55 xDDD 12:28:57 today maybe getting intp and try 12:29:00 Good boy. 12:29:02 learn forth in 1 day? :P 12:29:04 yes 12:29:06 Hehe 12:29:06 :) 12:29:07 juu: ask us & will teach u 12:29:15 i did same with asm :) 12:29:17 almost 12:29:19 ;) 12:29:31 never bothered writing asm-only app but still 12:29:38 juu: yeah, bug onetom & mrreach (mrgone) & i440r about forth 12:29:40 Hmm... next time we can tell Chuck his visit made another forth coder see the light! 12:29:45 * juu is self learnt c, c++, perl, ... 12:29:48 juu: don't bug fare & davidw about it ;) 12:30:02 klooie: how so? well speaking like this so makin them think im just a "stupid script kiddie" 12:30:08 Bug me and I will give you crazy answers! 12:30:09 --- nick: Crow|away -> CrowKilr 12:30:38 klooie: then helpin/teachin them so proving im not 1 12:31:05 hey, what ever happened to Laxen and Perry? why aren't they hanging out here? 12:31:07 that strikes me as a rather odd pastime to be honest, onetom. :) 12:31:54 klooie: infact its mainly about language 12:32:00 what were laxen & perry's nicks ? 12:32:14 klooie: ppl think strange things about natural langs 12:32:14 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 12:32:24 <-- didn't see "laxen" and "perry" nicks yesterday.. 12:32:28 klooie: id like 2 prove them they r wrong 12:32:40 wrong about what specifically, onetom? 12:32:44 futhin: laxen and perry were the guys that wrote F83 for the IBMPC/XT in the 80s 12:32:55 klooie: im highly influenced by me gf 2 do so. uknow, shes a linguist... 12:32:56 probably the 2nd most used forth ever written 12:33:28 klooie: wrong about eg, my writing style 12:34:05 futhin: we should discuss a conference system this evening. what do u think 12:34:19 what kind of conference system? 12:34:54 i don't know, onetom, i think you're a hiphop forther. ;) 12:35:00 futhin: a system what could ease the making such interviews like yesterdays 1 12:35:21 there are scripts for eggdrop that do that 12:35:22 did you think the interview went badly? 12:35:28 many thought it went good :P 12:35:28 klooie: thats right. u r in the 1st now, then ;) 12:35:29 not at all 12:35:51 i didn't really feel like abusing my powers by getting people to join #forthos for discussion while the interview went on.. 12:35:57 klooie: i u keep on being here, ur opinion gonna change. 12:36:03 however, the +m and only you speak was fustrating. 12:36:14 mrreach: do you think i should've told people they could join #forthos to discuss while the interview went on ? 12:36:25 i asked i440r for second opinion 12:36:26 I hadn't thought of that 12:36:30 and he said no heh 12:36:45 so i didn't.. 12:36:47 only if could could go, too 12:36:58 i felt a bit awkward 12:37:17 I was thinking you were going to give people voice so they ask their own questions, and get some discusion 12:37:23 i wouldn't really want to ask that ppl go to #forthos to discuss while the interview in #forth is under progress 12:37:28 mrreach: we'll do that the next time 12:37:44 MrReach: a channel 4 discussin further questions and meditating about the given answer could have been helpful, dont u think? 12:37:46 mrreach: a number of people influenced me.. namely bigboytoddy & goshawk` influenced me about how to run it 12:37:51 i think you did great, but there was bit of awkwardness 12:38:19 I'm just think about how that be decreased somehow 12:38:22 i thought it was very interesting, but a little on the slow side to be engaging. 12:38:34 of course that may be the nature of irc.. 12:38:40 * MrReach laughs. 12:38:45 well chuck takes his time to write good answers i thought 12:38:48 futhin: what did they say? do the had any good ideas? 12:38:53 thinks nice and slow 12:39:01 well, there's two things that chuck didn't see that I wanted him to ... 12:39:12 onetom: they influenced me to do the +m and to be the only person to pass questions along.. 12:39:20 one was a demonstration of gforth, the bot 12:39:49 the other was the mismatch grasshopper jump ideas that get thrown around in this channel 12:39:52 futhin: oh, c. without a -m it wouldnt b so useful i think 12:39:59 discussion about his answers in a separate channel so as not to drown chuck in noise could keep the pace up.. 12:40:02 (agreeing with onetom) 12:40:12 futhin: many of us wouldnt b able 2 follow the things 12:40:21 futhin: probably not even chuck 12:40:26 mrreach: what do you mean? how would you deal with the spam and noise? 12:40:26 onetom: +v can also be given to allow a couple of people to speak 12:40:41 that's the joy of it, though ... the noise 12:41:05 sure, if chuck wants to deal with that bs 12:41:16 sometimes someone says something totally wierd, and that leads to a great discussion 12:41:25 MrReach: what is +v? 12:41:37 +v is voice 12:41:44 lets ppl talk in +m environment 12:41:48 I didn't mean the whole session, but I wanted him to see some of the discussions that we have here on a daily basis 12:41:54 yes 12:41:55 me too 12:42:00 yes, without giving them full ops 12:42:07 it's my first time doing anything like this 12:42:15 and fortunately chuck moore will be back for a continuation 12:42:23 maybe we can make it a monthly event or whatever :P 12:42:37 incidently, that is why I asked you NOT to advertise his visit here 12:42:42 i had a bombardment of all these different ideas how to run it 12:42:48 to keep spam and noise down 12:43:05 * MrReach nods. 12:43:06 mrreach: the whole idea came from my wanting to attract more forthers here 12:43:17 hmmm ... ok 12:43:22 we probably don't have to advertise it for the next sessions with chuck 12:43:30 heh, well, it certainly did that 12:43:41 we can keep quiet about it :) 12:43:55 futhin: the honor is inevitably urs, because u were so brave & wrote a letter 2 chuck :) 12:44:03 I'd like to see chuck hang out here when he's off work and on weekends 12:44:20 * juu would use word informing 12:44:25 yep, futhin gets a shoulder ride for that one 12:44:28 futhin: so i adore & admire u 4 that :)Ö 12:44:35 there are, still, people who are deadly wanting to talk or ask something 12:44:40 yes, i had the idea for months before i bothered to email him heheh :) 12:45:05 well, go ahead and ask ... we aren't chuck, but we play with forth a lot 12:46:13 Hehe 12:46:14 futhin: my idea is a cooperative question creating system 12:46:26 onetom: i am open to all ideas :) 12:46:32 futhin: what would also b able 2 handle online voting 12:46:39 hmm 12:46:41 sounds interesting 12:46:49 it would be very nice to create a robust infrastructure 12:46:55 for interaction & feedback 12:47:00 * MrReach opens the bot features list and adds a line 12:47:06 it would help the forth community a lot 12:47:23 MrReach: :) 12:47:35 k, lets play a lil bit w the idea 12:47:42 * onetom get some food soon 12:47:46 gets 12:47:54 hmm.. one question, i have not read anything about forth, just know something, but how shoudl i create routine DAILYACTIVITIES including EAT CODE and CODEMORE ? 12:48:16 juu: hmmm? 12:48:25 : DAILYACTIVITES EAT CODE EAT CODEMORE ; 12:48:33 k thanks, i thought so 12:49:21 futhin: imagine how effective was that when we were hangin around in the same screen 12:49:23 one of the major problem that futhin had was probably a row of window buttons across the top of his screen, all red colored 12:49:55 perhaps we should /notice our comments and questions, instead of /msg 12:49:55 futhin: and interacted ...... (in a roundrobin way :) 12:50:50 futhin: now imagine how nice would it have been if ppl could observe ur screen while u were dealing w the questions 12:50:57 mrreach: heh 12:51:10 hm 12:51:14 onetom: that might be interesting 12:51:39 yes, but only if chipChuck himself can watch the discussion (and not get derailed by it) 12:52:08 futhin: as a next step, they could also vote on newly arised questions 12:52:12 well somehow i don't think he'd pay close attention to it, unless the discussion was going slow 12:52:28 after chuck left & i remained to consolidate all the questions properly 12:52:28 futhin: they could assign points 2 them 12:52:30 for the next time 12:52:39 i didn't pay attention to what people were talking about 12:52:39 I think he would very much pay attention to it ... I hate typing into a void 12:52:43 because it was quiet fast 12:52:44 are there some evaluating functions in forth, like eval() in js ? 12:53:19 s/quiet/quite 12:53:20 juu: EVALUATE ( cadr u -- ...) 12:53:20 futhin: it was slow 4 me 12:53:30 onetom: immediately after i -m 12:53:36 onetom: after chuck left 12:54:02 futhin: no, that was a bit fast certainly, but i didnt really pay attention coz 12:54:06 juu: file:///c:/home/mrreach/doc/dpANS_Forth/dpans6.htm#6.1.1360 12:54:12 i was talkin 2 jeff 12:54:18 yes 12:54:24 ooops, that's not gonna do you any good ... let me get the internet version 12:54:28 juu: look 12:54:32 and chuck would be typing his answers 12:54:40 gforth: s" 1 2 + ." evaluate 12:54:44 onetom: 3 12:54:59 well 12:55:00 gforth: s" 1 2 + " .s evaluate .s 12:55:03 there was a lot of noise 12:55:04 onetom: <2> 1074934184 6 <1> 3 12:55:06 with the questions messaged to me 12:55:20 but i juggled it fine, and told ppl to rephrase questions, etc 12:55:28 futhin: do u have a log about ur priv msgs? 12:55:30 juu: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans6.htm#6.1.1360 12:55:44 futhin: were u leading this event from mirc? 12:55:48 the only probelm is that i could've done a better job using the questions to keep with the same "topic" 12:55:51 yes from mirc 12:56:07 i have a nice list of questions right now for the next time 12:56:11 and it is sorted by topic 12:56:20 so i'll do much better next time :) 12:56:30 futhin: it doesnt allow /msg 2 appear in the same win as the main channel, does it? 12:56:52 onetom: there's a message window 12:56:56 all the messages appear in it 12:57:00 I think there might be an option for that 12:57:02 unless i type /query 12:57:04 which i did 12:57:10 i /queried all the names that had questions 12:57:18 then kept switching between all the windows 12:57:32 futhin: thats slow i think... 12:57:35 i started off poorly, and later on started putting them in a text file 12:57:46 next time i'll be much more prepared :P 12:57:54 and will do it more efficiently 12:58:27 futhin: we should create a sys like that i was mentioning.... 12:58:47 lemme check mIRC options ... 12:59:01 onetom: you asked jeff fox if chuck would be offended by the blinders comment? did jeff respond? 12:59:15 no he didnt :( 12:59:23 dont know why... 12:59:27 although, i dont like advertising, i would say bersirc(.com) is very good for multiserver and multichannel irccing .. 12:59:30 mrreach: you don't really need to... i'll be doing it much better next time, it just a learning curve & adaption 12:59:32 hey, would several of you send messages to me? 12:59:54 probably he doesnt want 2 make any statements about personal questions related 2 chuck 13:00:06 onetom: why didy ou think chuck might be pissed off about the blinders comment? 13:00:09 heh 13:00:18 onetom: would you send me a /msg please 13:00:41 everybody send me a /msg 13:01:03 some more ppl!? 13:01:08 come on, don't be lazy :P 13:01:16 juu: sorry 4 being rude, but push besirc into ur ass, its a win only sw :p 13:01:21 juu, klooie, rob_ert, onetom /msg me! 13:01:29 * juu likes how geekish and mystic and cryptic all those opcodes look like. like them :) though, i'm too much coder so i realise what is happening there 13:01:40 [14:01] *MrReach* hello! 13:01:40 [14:02] *onetom* msg 13:01:46 goodness, onetom, no prejudices in *THIS* channel @:^> 13:01:46 all in the msg window.. 13:02:09 and i can log the msg window.. 13:02:23 cool, that should work better for you, futhin 13:02:32 anyone coded selfmodifying applications in forth? 13:02:34 MrReach: i feel like being harsh now, sorry 4 it, im not really serious 13:02:36 :) 13:02:48 mrreach: i did the query to factor the noise.. 13:02:49 juu: yes, jeff fox :) 13:02:56 i used /query to factor out the noise 13:03:06 but in retrospect, i could've just copied the questions into a text file 13:03:08 * MrReach nods. 13:03:11 and organized the questions 13:03:13 juu: have u already read my lil jeff interview? 13:03:24 onetom nup 13:03:33 i have not yet found wokrin interpreter :D 13:03:36 binary 13:03:46 for windows, i'll use isforth or gforth inlinux then 13:04:00 juu: still cant understand u 13:04:03 juu: you can download a native forth.. a forth that runs as the os 13:04:15 * rob_ert uses isforth for learning how a forth works :) 13:04:15 juu: gforth and win32forth both work in windows 13:04:17 juu: what interpreter r u talkin about &whats wrong w gforth? 13:04:22 Thanks alot for that, I440r 13:04:36 win32forth is designed to work with windows, gforth isn't 13:04:40 onetom i need binaries, no gcc, and dont feel like compiling atm 13:04:46 rob_ert: & what about tile? its it also clear? 13:04:47 i'll try to find win32forth 13:05:02 juu: oh, forget win32forth 13:05:02 Hm 13:05:10 juu: thats way 2 bloated 13:05:13 Haven't got into the sources 13:05:13 heh 13:05:18 juu: try eg, bigforth 13:05:29 FPC? :) 13:05:30 onetom: do you read german? 13:05:56 Bernd Paysen was here yesterday, I noticed 13:06:04 yes 13:06:26 hm, not many ppl care much for irc i guess :) 13:06:32 win32 first i found :) i'll try it too and will find bigforth too 13:06:38 perhaps they are focused on being productive 13:06:46 rather than wasting their time in irc :P 13:06:53 Hehe 13:07:33 --- nick: MrReach -> MrPhone 13:07:47 onetom: your jeff fox log is really terrible 13:08:00 juu: ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/windows 13:08:01 onetom: it seems to be missing information & context 13:08:18 futhin: hey, forget the beginning 13:08:24 onetom: the conversation with jeff fox occured on #forth right? 13:08:30 you stripped out everybody else basically? 13:08:45 futhin: eh, reload it! now! 13:09:11 still sucks 13:09:11 heh 13:09:26 showertime 13:09:52 juu: gf030... is ur friend. those r the gforth binaries 4 gforth 13:10:18 oki 13:10:31 juu: http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/bigforth.html this 1 also has win bins, tho ive never tried those 13:10:39 don't forget that they need to be unpacked over the sources 13:10:39 now i have 3 binaries, yestday 0 good progress 13:10:50 ooops 13:10:53 --- nick: MrPhone -> MrReach 13:11:20 hehe 13:11:40 juu: hey, this 1 is much more up 2 date: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/ 13:11:57 yes, that is Ertl's site 13:12:12 juu: learn this page: http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html 13:12:39 juu: this is 1 of the best link collections 13:13:04 agh, you are drowning me to links this time 13:13:04 :) 13:13:09 bulp bulp bulp 13:13:20 i'll create you sauna.f 13:13:30 * MrReach starts counting, to see when the bubbles stop 13:13:34 http://www.ultratechnology.com/ 13:13:47 & this 1 is a hardcore site ;) 13:14:06 now i have 5 packages and i dont know if i miss someting or have anything or which works or so.. 13:14:07 pff.. 13:14:08 w videos & amazing links 2 amazing ppl 13:14:14 i shoudl unpackagae those first :) 13:15:10 :) ive been 2 sauna 2days b4 4 the very 1st time 13:15:19 --- join: MrBot (~MrBot@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 13:15:20 I'm so lame I only know how to QUIT. 13:15:26 --- quit: Speuler (No route to host) 13:15:38 i liked it so much, that i admire u a lot if u give me some sauna.f ;) 13:15:44 :) 13:15:49 --- quit: MrBot (Client Quit) 13:16:03 * onetom slays food 13:16:06 did you knew that some one built sauna to pickup? :) 13:16:19 and still drivable was at party places or so 13:16:23 that's a neat idea 13:17:19 yeea, and near water too 13:17:21 if wanted 13:17:44 pff 13:17:53 i'll wc and then unpack and see if i got what i needed 13:18:03 ah. wanted.. might need or so 13:18:41 i386-pc-cygwin32 cygnus requires something ? 13:18:48 in folder binonly.. 13:20:21 that's true, you can write forth compiler not knowing much of the whole language 13:20:38 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-54-75-118.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 13:23:04 greets, Soap` 13:23:24 juu: it needs the cygwin .dll 13:23:49 Mornin' 13:24:10 basically, that is glibc ported to Win32 platform ... dog slow, though 13:27:26 oki 13:28:14 i'll make infinite loop :LOOP IRC FORTH READUSERFRIENDLY ; 13:28:43 heh 13:29:07 no 13:29:20 hmm shoudlnt use word "loop" there.. 13:29:30 : t wakeup BEGIN irc forth userfriendly AGAIN ; 13:30:05 hmm.. the order is suspicious. 13:30:05 or ... 13:30:15 or irc forth irc usrfriendly 13:30:34 : myday wakeup BEGIN irc forth userfriendly 0 UNTIL ; 13:30:52 note that in the above source, you must reboot the system to go to sleep 13:35:09 --- join: MrBot (~MrBot@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 13:35:09 I'm so lame I only know how to QUIT. 13:35:11 testing testing 1 2 3 13:35:15 --- part: Bob left #forth 13:35:37 --- quit: MrBot (Client Quit) 13:35:39 Hehe 13:36:21 MrReach reBOOT?!?! what has the wakeup to do with that then?! 13:36:23 :D 13:36:55 my day starts when I wake up, and ends when I crash 13:37:24 pfff, if you saved your source code before crashing you might finish eventually 13:38:21 now we are talking, forth interpreter that actaully works! 13:39:02 hmm.. i need something to write, maybe browsing faq trhougn 13:41:23 Forth Tutorial sounds good.. but.. i want tutorial with no foo.talk.. hmm. just simpe 1 line description and source code.. perhaps i coudl do my own ... some day 13:41:52 pardon, i'm rebooting thoughts to be sensible again, no more bad jokes 13:48:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 13:48:44 predator 2 is on tv. /me curious about it :/ 13:48:58 --- mode: MrReach set -o MrReach 13:49:09 ok movie 13:49:19 the original was better, imo 13:49:31 * rob_ert has just seen the original. 13:49:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 13:49:39 predator 3 is the best :P 13:49:42 --- mode: MrReach set -o MrReach 13:49:47 (it doesn't exist, i'm kidding) 13:49:49 there's a #3 ??? 13:49:53 heh, got me 13:49:56 heh :P 13:50:11 np 13:50:59 you get ops because of seniority.. i'm tempted to op others, but i think i won't heh 13:51:25 Where can I get a list of nice escape codes for playing with the console? 13:51:27 seniority = been with channel a long time.. 13:51:37 futhin: no even me? ;( 13:52:29 i would 13:52:37 rob_ert: good question... 13:52:51 rob_ert: i44or hunted them from various places 13:53:18 Just to show how much of a pervert I am, here you are: http://ostling.no-ip.com/files/ypn/snippets/image.f 13:53:28 rob_ert: probably u can check isforth sources (or probably bigforth is also good or even better for it) 13:53:51 I find isforth quite good to steal code from :) 13:54:19 rob_ert: knight rider? ;) 13:54:31 Riders on the storm. 13:55:04 smoke on the waaater ..... back 2 tv 13:55:10 bb soon 13:56:05 Hehe, Okay . 14:00:23 how can i clean gforth stack? 14:00:37 type asklfda; 14:00:40 :P 14:00:47 an error cleans the stack 14:01:06 this pages said 0SP would do but it didn't 14:01:19 What does S" ..." really do? I know what it returns and so, but how does it allocate memory and so? 14:01:26 And how is memory in general allocated in forth? 14:01:33 juu: gforth might be different from the tutorial.. 14:01:57 juu: maybe 0 sp? 14:03:06 still undefined 14:03:10 drop, though drops 14:03:38 hmm.. loop sounds useful 14:03:48 how shoudl i use it? 14:04:24 would a one stack forth be possible? 14:04:38 no i don't think so.. 14:04:42 return stack is important 14:04:51 for tracking loops and nesting functions, etc 14:04:51 by using the chuck moore adr register paradigm 14:05:11 we could OUT from the main stack dtata we want to keep 14:05:12 ? 14:05:13 hmm.. maybe if there is technically descriptive part there 14:05:21 0 = return, 1 = another 14:05:30 0 123 1 423 0 241 etc 14:05:47 of course 0 and 1 unvisible for user 14:06:26 actually i think i have heard of a 1 stack forth... 14:06:29 *COOL* thunder and lightening here 14:06:58 gforth: 1 2 3 empty .s 14:07:01 MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 14:07:01 MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 14:07:01 MrReach: 1 2 3 empty .s 14:07:01 MrReach: ^^^^^ 14:07:01 MrReach: Backtrace: 14:07:12 because if we factor out, why 2 stacks? 14:07:19 only one would be sufficient 14:07:59 special mechanism would be needed 14:08:05 hmmm 14:08:21 if esi is the stack pointer like in colorforth 14:08:26 well 14:08:27 i gotta go 14:08:28 and eax the top register 14:08:29 laters 14:08:30 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 14:08:37 be well, futhin 14:08:46 eax could hold parameters between words 14:09:13 lif edx is the adr register like in colorforth again 14:09:35 we could use mov edx, [esi-4], jump edx construct 14:09:40 is it possible? 14:10:56 the [edi-4] doesn't advance the pointer... 14:13:17 i propose you a design exercise 14:13:36 --- join: smurphy (smaffy@d212-151-33-229.swipnet.se) joined #forth 14:13:52 theres no more stack on earth!!! only one, how could forth work on only one stack? 14:13:59 Hi :-) 14:14:05 hi 14:14:27 Hmm 14:14:32 :p 14:14:52 what differs forth from c? 14:15:05 CrowKilr: Play with the idea :) Try to implement a one-stack forth 14:15:10 simplicity 14:15:20 (unreadability) 14:15:27 thats what im trying to draw at the very moment lol 14:15:29 rob_ert you can do it readable 14:15:37 * juu nkows how to make even basic unreadable :) 14:15:45 Hehe 14:15:52 I mean in the normal case :) 14:16:51 * juu again notices jumping in tutorial.. i have already tried those "practises" before i was told to. 14:17:17 x = a[i++]; looks better than A I @ DUP 1+ I ! + @ X ! 14:17:43 I bet my forth code is incorrect, but it looks something like that :-) 14:18:10 i dont even understand the c code lol 14:18:14 Heh 14:18:16 is a an index and i the pointer 14:18:19 Learn C and you will ;-) 14:18:26 Yeah, i is the index. 14:18:38 a is the base then 14:18:41 ..is there any sourcecode somewhere that i can read? i think the easiest way to understand it is to read it.. 14:18:44 the adress is a+i 14:18:49 ?? 14:18:50 Hehe 14:18:59 CrowKilr: No 14:19:18 look at the colorforth ide example of an ide driver 14:19:26 CrowKilr: Address to get x from will be a+i 14:19:42 thats what i meant ;p 14:19:47 Bah 14:19:53 And then i is incremented after that 14:20:07 in forth its really easy to do and a lot more clear 14:20:08 But I must admit the forht way of doing it is quite cool 14:20:13 lol 14:20:16 A I @ DUP 1+ I ! + @ X ! 14:20:20 Are you serious? =) 14:20:25 ill rewrite it 14:20:27 hmmmm 14:20:28 OK 14:20:37 Well, you can always define your own words. 14:20:38 i will try at least lol 14:20:56 And most likley, you would use the word "i" inside a do - loop, right? 14:21:11 So, inside a loop it would look like.. .hmmm 14:21:14 i dont believ in do loops 14:21:15 lol 14:21:38 rob_ert, rob_ert ... u wanna threaten newbies away... ;) 14:21:42 Heh 14:21:43 No :) 14:21:54 He started to argue! 14:22:04 Well, onetom, show us an easier way 14:22:12 x = a[i++] .... lemme c 14:22:12 A I @ DUP 1+ I ! + @ X ! \ optimize this :) 14:22:19 im a very arguable perosn i can argue for days lol 14:22:35 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 14:22:36 So do I :)) 14:22:37 its x = a[i] ; i += 1 14:22:38 Bye MrGone. 14:22:44 Yes 14:23:21 (pointer to i) 1 + a + @ 14:23:21 a i @ + ( a[i] ) x ! 1 i +! 14:23:25 Well, I think I'll have to go to bed soon :-/ 14:23:47 rob_ert: its far more readable this way ithink... 14:23:50 @ fetch from adress in top and return the content in top 14:23:55 onetom: Yeah, hehe 14:24:02 Yes. 14:24:04 Hrm 14:24:06 Anyway 14:24:10 It's night 14:24:10 ;pp 14:24:13 see ya 14:24:14 And school tomorrow _/ 14:24:15 ! 14:24:15 --- part: smurphy left #forth 14:24:28 here its 5H30 pm 14:24:37 rob_ert: sleep well 14:24:45 I'm in Sweden, CrowKilr :) 14:24:49 Thanks 1tom. 14:24:55 rob_ert: & dream w nice 4th codes ;) 14:25:00 lol hehehe 14:25:03 I hope I will :D 14:25:16 Hope I can begin writing on my forth tomorrow :) 14:25:34 so as i ;) 14:25:55 imean i also hope u gonna start ur own 1 :) 14:26:12 back 2 tv 4 a while 14:26:24 CrowKilr: could u explain ur 1 stack idea 14:26:48 CrowKilr: but wo any specific asm implementation? 14:27:19 CrowKilr: use just pure math & a formal prg lang 14:27:38 if im back, we could discuss it 14:27:39 hmmmmm 14:27:59 ill think about it im trying to draw some sketchs right now 14:31:10 rob_ert.. 14:31:21 you might want to read http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/pf_tut.htm first :) 14:31:37 skip other, only source code useful, for me at least 14:33:14 maaaah, forth is easier than one other langage to mention to learn i say 14:33:15 the ide driver form chuck moore's site 14:33:25 is a great example of colorforth 14:33:28 in action 14:35:14 Hah 14:35:39 juu, try to understand what CREATE, DOES>, , and stuff like that works :) 14:35:45 Then say it's easy. 14:36:00 But I admit the basics isn't very hard 14:36:53 create does constructs are bad 14:36:54 lol 14:37:03 anyway brb 14:37:25 :) 14:37:48 rob_ert i'll tomorrw 14:38:06 btw, that's the tutorial I've been using 14:38:11 rob, implement > HMS>SECONDS ( HOURS MINUTES SECONDS -- TOTAL-SECONDS , convert ) 14:38:17 Heh 14:38:27 That's not very hard XD 14:38:30 i know 14:38:36 that's why i gave it to you 14:38:36 :) 14:39:06 re 14:39:18 : HMS>SECONDS ROT 3600 * ROT 60 * + + ; ? 14:39:26 Welcome back :) 14:39:27 rot?? 14:39:33 its ugly ;p 14:39:40 what does it do? 14:39:41 CrowKilr: Do you know how create/does> works? 14:39:55 not at all, i didnt bother since its ansi forth 14:40:30 reding would only give me more stuff to worry about 14:40:30 Well... 14:40:35 Heh 14:40:42 its quite too high level for me 14:40:47 I think that's quite a central part in forth 14:40:48 im into the basics lol 14:40:51 Hehe 14:41:19 its about compiling stuff?? 14:41:27 bah i live in a machine forth world 14:41:28 lol 14:41:30 rob_ert: good. 14:41:32 Well, I' m not sure 14:41:35 oink: XD 14:41:36 night. 14:41:42 good night! 14:41:42 http://zetetics.com/bj/papers/moving3.htm 14:41:43 night 14:41:46 i try to impelment a machine forth assembler for the x86 lol 14:41:50 That's for you, CrowKilr 14:41:57 Well 14:42:03 Won't you need stuff like that then? 14:42:11 I'm trying to do the same 14:42:22 ive read this paper but not that part lol 14:43:38 Read it! 14:43:43 Very interesting :) 14:43:47 thats what im doing lol 14:43:54 ;) 14:44:08 What have you done os far? 14:44:10 so* 14:44:52 ive skipped to the alst version 14:44:58 last part i menat 14:45:01 meant lol 14:45:06 i type like a pig lol 14:46:14 bah im disapointed only the small part at the end show examples 14:46:18 : DSQ ( a b -- a*a-b*b ) DUP * SWAP DUP * SWAP - . ; is this correct, not bothering checking :) 14:47:09 Hmm 14:47:13 Remove the dot 14:47:20 But otherwise it looks OK 14:48:03 : DIFF.SQUARES ( A B -- A*A-B*B ) 14:48:03 SWAP SQUARE 14:48:03 SWAP SQUARE - 14:48:03 ; 14:48:12 hmmmm 14:48:23 let me think.. 14:48:30 What? :) 14:48:52 a is the further in the stack? and b is the most to the surcface term? 14:48:55 So...what have you done on it? 14:49:09 Yes, b is on top 14:49:33 gforth: : square dup * ; : diff.squares swap square swap square - ; 4 5 diff.squares . 14:49:36 MrGone: -9 14:49:55 gforth: : square dup * ; : diff.squares swap square swap square - ; 5 4 diff.squares . 14:49:56 i would push b into the return stack, square a, pop b and square b 14:49:59 MrGone: 9 14:50:13 gforth: : square dup * ; : diff.squares swap square swap square - abs ; 4 5 diff.squares . 14:50:16 MrGone: 9 14:50:17 Hmm... anyone got a quick integer-sqrt word in forth= 14:50:21 MrGone? :) 14:50:25 the swaps are ugly lol 14:50:27 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 14:50:47 I'd need one, but haven't got it to work 14:50:57 hmmmm 14:51:00 its easy to do 14:51:03 isqrt ( x - sqrt[x] ) 14:51:04 look at the piclist 14:51:07 How? :) 14:51:13 theres lot of great assembly code 14:51:13 PIClist? 14:51:15 for rsic machine 14:51:20 its about PIC micros 14:51:21 Hm 14:51:25 I need it in forth :) 14:51:28 www.piclist.com 14:51:31 its almost in forth 14:51:32 I can do it in asm...but not forth 14:51:53 http://www.sxlist.com/techref/ubicom/index.htm 14:51:55 its better 14:52:26 the sx is a little MicroChip tm PIC like chip running at 50MHZ 14:52:33 these are the thing that told me assembly 14:52:52 I have a 16f84a 14:53:00 and this site is great ill get a squrt routine for you 14:53:06 Think I burnt it with my home-made programmer though :-/ 14:53:14 hehehe lol 14:53:44 http://www.sxlist.com/techref/ubicom/lib/math/basic.htm 14:53:49 gforth: 9 sqrt . 14:53:51 look at the square root part of the page 14:53:52 MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 14:53:53 MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 14:53:53 MrReach: 9 sqrt . 14:53:53 MrReach: ^^^^ 14:53:53 MrReach: Backtrace: 14:54:40 gforth: 9 s>f fsqrt f. 14:54:44 MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 14:54:44 MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 14:54:44 MrReach: 9 s>f fsqrt f. 14:54:44 MrReach: ^^^ 14:54:44 MrReach: Backtrace: 14:54:52 ;********************************************************************** 14:54:52 ;SMALL 8 BIT SQUARE ROOT 14:54:52 ; 14:54:52 ;Author: Nikolai Golovchenko 14:54:52 ;Idea: Scott Dattalo 14:54:53 ;"Hint: n^2 = sum of the first n odd integers.(e.g 9 = 3*3 = 1 + 3 + 5)" 14:54:55 ;Date: February 16, 2000 14:55:03 ;Input: x 14:55:03 ;Output: y 14:55:03 ;ROM - 10 14:55:03 ;RAM - 2 14:55:05 ;Timing, including call and return 14:55:07 ;Best case: 6+9=15 cycles 14:55:09 ;Worst case: 6+2+8*16-2+1=135 cycles 14:55:10 gforth: 9 s>d d>f fsqrt f. 14:55:11 ;********************************************************************** 14:55:13 MrReach: 3. 14:55:22 gforth: 10 s>d d>f fsqrt f. 14:55:25 MrReach: 3.16227766016838 14:55:44 --- nick: Fare61453 -> Fare 14:57:32 * onetom back 14:57:55 CrowKilr: hey ya, r u also a pic/sx programmer? 14:58:11 im a sx programmer in my soul lol 14:58:16 --- nick: MrReach -> mrgone 14:58:25 --- nick: mrgone -> MrReach 14:58:25 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-67.dacor.net) joined #forth 14:58:36 mkay ... I got Duntemann's book 14:58:49 i started programming in x86 assembly 10 days ago and i programmed in sx for 2 years on small projects 14:59:06 now is that all I need for asm? 14:59:25 aoa 14:59:26 gforth: 1e0 fatan 4e0 f* f. 14:59:27 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 14:59:29 art of assembly 14:59:32 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 14:59:47 CrowKilr: nooooooooo 14:59:47 this is the best book on the matter and its free on the internet 14:59:52 oh okay. 14:59:53 CrowKilr: hey, im a pic programmer. i use the for many yrs, tho i didnt do 2 much serious stuff 14:59:55 i learned with that lol 14:59:57 gforth: 1e0 fatan 4e0 f* f. 15:00:14 hrm 15:00:18 he's kaputt 15:00:21 onetom:me neither, 15:00:23 --- part: Fare left #forth 15:00:24 seems to be stuffed up 15:00:44 floating point is bad lol 15:00:49 CrowKilr: sx is just a faster stolen copy of the pics 15:01:00 yeah 15:01:06 i have also AVRs 15:01:06 CrowKilr: they have the same instructionset ithink 15:01:09 those are great 15:01:21 umean greater than sxes? 15:01:23 yes the exact same one as the 16c5x 15:01:42 CrowKilr: so u r also a pic programmer :p 15:01:58 CrowKilr: do u know there r also 4th compiler 4 pics? 15:02:00 like to say newbie RISC programmer ;p 15:02:16 CrowKilr: yeah, that 1 suits better :) 15:02:28 and about 2 months ago i stumbled on colorforth 15:02:40 I was blown away, then on the ultratechnology.com site 15:02:43 blown away again 15:02:47 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 15:02:56 MrReach: you recommended Duntemann right? 15:03:00 CrowKilr: what do u mean by blown away? 15:03:02 nope 15:03:10 who was it then? 15:03:18 GilbertBSD: probably CrowKilr 15:03:20 ah it was kc ... 15:03:29 kc5? 15:03:37 those things are the best I've read about computers 15:03:52 stack computer paradigm and forth are the best 15:03:57 and asynchronous circuits too 15:04:25 u mention "stack computer paradigm" the 2nd time (@least) 15:04:40 what doc have u read about them? 15:04:46 url? 15:04:48 i looked at papers from the AMULET group, also from the Sun research department, about their FLEETzero technology 15:04:53 www.ultratechnology.com 15:05:02 i basically read all that i could find on this site 15:05:10 coz there r @ least 2 famous stack machines docs outhere 15:05:19 would u b more specific? 15:05:25 oh, i c 15:05:27 okay 15:05:44 ive just started 2 read/listen/watch the stuff there 15:05:46 bye 15:05:51 bye 15:05:57 stack computers by rob chapman, implemented in fpgas are the best design i saw 15:05:59 bye 15:06:02 cu l8r!! 15:06:13 oink: dont forget 2 come back! ;) 15:06:23 CrowKilr: ah, thx 4 it :) 15:06:28 i'm just going to sleep heh ! 15:06:37 right :) 15:06:49 u r allowed 2 do that 15:06:58 :D 15:07:01 good night 15:07:08 colorforth is so much better than anything im blown away, thats why i came here, to understand why people stick with ansi forth 15:07:23 and? 15:07:26 managed? :) 15:07:27 CrowKilr: what is so cool about colorforth ? 15:07:31 is it like a real forth? 15:07:37 ithink ur like: "not yet" 15:07:52 a WEALTH simpler 15:08:02 chuck moore call it brutally simple 15:08:13 www.colorforth.com 15:08:29 look at the ide driver code example 15:08:54 did the orig version of CF work 4 ya? 15:09:38 no i dont have a 1024 by 768 display 15:09:46 and the dam keyboard lol 15:09:48 damn 15:10:02 the editor isnt so great 15:10:06 but whats underneath 15:10:15 wow ;p 15:10:34 machine forth is great 15:10:50 http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html 15:10:50 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.") 15:11:16 i try to implement these instructions in NASM macros with some twists of mine 15:12:11 CrowKilr: there r many CFs outher 15:12:26 yeah 4word and all 15:12:30 i looked at their docs 15:12:33 CrowKilr: also much more friendlier & advances 1s too 15:12:36 and the RETRo project also 15:12:43 CrowKilr: try enth/flux ! 15:13:01 im trying to do one on my own 15:13:19 fllux, bahhhh 15:13:27 its all based on forths i dont like 15:13:30 & aint u interested in 4th 4 SX, huh? 15:13:43 i tried to do it 15:13:49 then i read the paper entitled 15:13:56 3 instruction forth 15:14:05 on ultratech? 15:14:08 by rank seargeant i think 15:14:13 no 15:14:21 ill give the link wait a bit 15:14:37 http://www.eskimo.com/~pygmy/forth.html 15:14:51 look at the 3 inst forth archive 15:14:51 hmm 15:15:08 since sx can execute code in ram 15:15:21 i found it not appropriate to implement forth on them 15:15:41 and i jumped into the x86 asm bandwagon 15:15:56 so here i am now lol 15:16:04 but there exist 4th compilerS 4 sx like micros... 15:16:11 i know about 2 1s 15:16:14 but in sx theres the indirect register wich is great 15:16:24 and the w register that hold the top register 15:16:33 it would be easy to do one in 1 or 2 hours lol 15:16:36 yes! 15:16:58 and its worth 2 make 1! 15:17:08 it makes life much more easier 15:17:39 i now have the brain totally washed up by the stack paradigm 15:17:46 tho, u also have 2 optimize code :( 15:17:50 and since many processor have only one hardware stack 15:17:54 and its not an easy task 15:18:08 i would be happy seeing or making a one stack forth 15:18:39 but how could u expect 2 create such if 15:18:53 u have already read soooo much papers?! 15:19:09 it took me 1 month lol 15:19:14 sleeping soon 15:19:23 juu: cu 2morrow! 15:19:24 now im in the real stuff so i joined asm chan on undernet and this chan 15:19:27 onetom :) 15:19:29 see ya! 15:19:33 seesja 15:19:41 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 15:23:01 CrowKilr: nahh. what r u doing now? 15:23:04 zz now 15:23:11 --- quit: juu ("sleep") 15:23:38 im writing some stuff in NASM, some macros to implement the x18 no-operand instructions 15:23:44 on the x86 15:23:50 i have soem code to boot 15:23:51 c :( 15:23:53 froma disquette 15:24:08 when will u have time 4 some chat? 15:24:38 i can do do multitasking ;p 15:24:54 really? :) 15:25:05 then plz explain this 1stack thing 15:25:18 how do u think u can do a 1stack 4th? 15:25:37 the fundamental idea behind 4th is the 2 stacks 15:25:44 i know 15:25:58 i was just thinking about some stuff when i thought 15:26:00 so it can have a 0 operand instr set 15:26:43 this separation of program and data flow makes it so effective 15:27:05 if u have only 1 hw stack, u have 2 implement 1more by software 15:27:13 theres no other way ithink 15:27:22 do you know about protected mode on the x86? 15:27:32 if u use only 1 stack, well... thats not 4th then 15:27:41 sorry, not much 15:27:47 i hate that architecture 15:27:54 i implemented teh same thing as in colorfoth in my boot code, 2 overlapping 4gb segments for code and data 15:27:56 i only programmed it in real mode 15:28:13 and learnt about protected mode 15:28:37 (the various descriptor table and the addressing mechanisms) 15:29:01 so my gdt is in the "basic flat memory model" 15:29:04 code&data? 15:29:06 so my stack pointer ESP 15:29:08 yes 15:29:21 can be anywhere 15:29:28 in this 4gb space 15:29:38 what is that differentiation good 4? 15:29:39 if i have the memory avaible of course 15:30:00 theres no differentiation in the basic flat model 15:30:13 its only for the ds and cs segments differentiation 15:30:29 i dont touch to them at all once the initialization is done 15:30:49 the memory of a computer is one big stack in fact 15:30:55 but how will u use them? 15:31:00 with a pointer, esp 15:31:13 coz the 4th arch doesnt differetiate between code & data 15:31:38 the dict holds both 15:32:06 hmmmm you're right 15:32:57 tathi & herkamire r just workin on a 68xxx forth os implementation 15:33:27 they told me that motorola procs have separate cacheing mechhanisms 4 15:33:39 the code&data segments 15:33:50 and it drives them crazy 15:34:15 they all the time have 2 flush the caches 15:34:24 lol yerk 15:34:24 and it makes execution slow 15:35:35 so? whats up w a 1stck solution now? 15:35:46 in the mirror of all the above stuff? 15:36:03 do u still think its possible? 15:36:07 hm maybe by 15:36:15 keeping the parameter of teh word 15:36:20 in the TOP register 15:36:36 pushing the return adress in the stack 15:36:46 no wait 15:36:53 waitin ;) 15:36:54 any word would have to 15:37:18 hmmm im trying to draw it 15:37:23 i can say 15:37:29 k, draw it & mail it 15:37:29 that in this kind of system 15:37:40 hermantom@yahoo.com 15:37:54 there would be one TOP register, one stack pointer and one ADR register 15:38:52 but its the calling/return mechanism thats bothering me 15:39:11 in fact a one stack system would consist only of a return stack 15:39:38 with temporary data values in it 15:40:17 like you go down the stack, pushing return adresses as you jump from word to word and then you get back 15:40:28 ha im blowing my mind lol 15:40:34 its hard to visualize 15:40:59 u use so often the word *blow* but i still cant understand it :( 15:41:12 like a stack moving in two directions 15:41:23 k, dont visualize, just give examples 15:41:33 you nest yourself, you go down the stack 15:41:50 and when you reached a word that dosent need nesting more 15:41:59 you move the stack the otehr way around 15:42:10 im afraid ur just talkin about a quirky implementation of a 2 stack system 15:42:33 where u actually merge the 2 stacks into 1 memory area 15:42:55 dont know if it would be possible.. 15:43:26 this is how the return stack works... 15:43:43 still cant understand what r u talkin about.. 15:43:51 me neither lololol 15:43:56 great 15:44:10 k, go back 2 coding 15:44:33 & dont dare 2 come back wo a clear example! ;) 15:44:56 anyway, thx 4 the links 15:48:07 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 15:48:20 hello.. 15:48:26 nah, whats up? 15:48:48 may 18, the apparent date for chuck's next visit, is on the long weekend 15:48:56 do you think this is ok or should i change it? 15:49:05 onetom: we're not working on 68K processors. those are the old ones. We are doing PowerPC 15:49:18 herkamire: oh, sorry 15:49:43 I don't think 68K processors do protected memory. 15:49:47 possibly 15:49:47 herkamire: ithought they have very similar cores, tho, dont they? 15:50:04 68K processors are 16 bit 15:50:12 imean @ least the instruction sets r the same 15:50:25 like x86 1s 15:50:43 I don't know about that. ask tathi 15:50:44 sorry 8086 1s 15:51:08 but they evolved and the 286 & 386 already have 15:51:10 if youre working on the powerpc, then ill need your help if someday we can hack thaht damn gamecube lol 15:51:15 32bit registers too 15:51:25 a power pc running at 485MHZ with internal memory 15:51:25 and also memory protection too 15:51:33 thats a great machine 15:51:41 ithink the motorola productline evolves similary 15:51:58 <`kwahsog> 68K's are 24-bit, are they not? 15:52:05 <`kwahsog> at least, the early ones were 15:52:36 <`kwahsog> (pre-68030) 15:52:51 btw, i know absolutely nothing about powerpc architecture, just the that the name == mac ;p so if i brag correct me please lol 15:53:03 in europe those were not so famous, so most european coders dont know much about 68k procs 15:53:23 <`kwahsog> crow: powerpc is used in a lot more than just macs 15:53:32 i used a ppc computer once with macos AND dos w/ windows 3.11 installed 15:53:50 and there was a hotkey that switched between them 15:53:56 <`kwahsog> macs just happen to be one of the larger sales figures for powerpc 15:54:08 <`kwahsog> (but not the largest I am sure, since powerpc's are used in embedded work, too) 15:54:39 <`kwahsog> futhin: are you sure that there was not a hardware emulator plugged into the machine? 15:55:18 <`kwahsog> macs used to notororious for that kind of thing 15:55:58 i don't know.. i remember back in those days, around grade 8/9 for me, "PPC" computers were being sold with macos AND win 3.11 together 15:56:05 and you could switch between them 15:56:59 <`kwahsog> I recall that there used to be quite a few PC emulators on some of the early machines 15:57:10 <`kwahsog> not just in software 15:57:15 futhin: how about sketchin an interview supporter system now? 15:57:19 <`kwahsog> *shrug* 15:57:44 onetom: ok 15:57:52 good 15:58:06 so 15:58:18 when the interview was proceeding 15:58:43 1st iwas very curious about what r u doing while chuck talks 2 u 15:59:01 what does the others tell 2 u 15:59:17 mrr told us about a +v flag 15:59:30 1st of all could u explain how does it work? 16:00:13 it lets you talk 16:00:15 when there is +m 16:00:22 and others will see what you said 16:00:32 +m cuts out all talking unless you are +v or opped 16:00:35 who r those "others"? 16:00:48 everyone 16:00:56 on the chan 16:00:59 <`kwahsog> I really don't think *anyone* should talk during the interview 16:01:14 <`kwahsog> *ever*...unless it is the star(s) of the show, or the moderator 16:01:45 `kwahsog: why? 16:02:03 <`kwahsog> because I don't want to hear anyone else's opinions 16:02:12 `kwahsog: i wouldnt like 2 c the main channel b cluttered up by others 16:02:16 <`kwahsog> especially if more than half the channel is not voiced or opped 16:02:28 then u wont 16:02:39 but plz dont force every1 2 b mute 16:02:56 everyoe should be mute 16:03:01 let the 1s who like 2 b able 2 talk 16:03:02 if you have a question 16:03:06 ask one of the op 16:03:11 to ask it for you 16:03:17 or do just plain cut and paste ;p 16:03:21 yeah, but im curious about the others questions 16:03:40 dont you ever been on a +m chan? 16:03:49 you ll see the questions of the others 16:03:57 in fact you will just see those and the answers 16:04:03 nothing else 16:04:14 if you are not +v 16:04:25 <`kwahsog> the probnlem was that people were talking while mr. Moore was answering the question 16:04:25 onetom: i have a list of all the questions that haven't been answered yet 16:04:32 onetom: do you want to see the list? i'll put it up 16:04:40 <`kwahsog> and I don't think that is appropriate 16:04:57 agreed 16:04:57 <`kwahsog> if that was a real lecture, that would have been considered rude 16:05:03 ehhh, meeen, how can u b so dumb that none of u can explain me clearly what the hell is this +v grrrrr.... 16:05:15 he's not the caual guy taht come here everyon once in a while lol 16:05:15 onetom: wtf, i explained 16:05:19 maybe i'll demonstrate 16:05:21 futhin: noooo!!!!! not @ the moment 16:05:23 <`kwahsog> onetom: while a channel +m...it is moderated...which means that anyone who is NOT opped or voiced 16:05:25 everybody, prepare for mode +m 16:05:29 ok 16:05:34 <`kwahsog> cannot speak 16:05:35 prepared for +m ;p 16:05:36 futhin: i wanna discuss a support system now 16:05:40 <`kwahsog> period 16:05:43 <`kwahsog> make sense? 16:05:53 <`kwahsog> opped == +o 16:05:56 <`kwahsog> voiced == +v 16:05:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 16:06:01 --- mode: futhin set +m 16:06:02 ok 16:06:04 none of you can tlak 16:06:05 talk 16:06:07 la la la 16:06:08 hahaha 16:06:13 --- mode: futhin set +v onetom 16:06:17 now onetom can talk 16:06:18 speak onetom! 16:06:24 --- mode: futhin set +v `kwahsog 16:06:28 --- mode: futhin set -v CrowKilr 16:06:32 --- mode: futhin set +v CrowKilr 16:06:34 heh 16:06:36 #forth :The channel demigods have stolen your voice 16:06:37 speak! 16:06:37 lol 16:06:39 <`kwahsog> *ruff* 16:06:44 testing 16:06:47 do you see onetom? 16:06:54 <`kwahsog> it's magic 16:06:54 you can type and ppl will see 16:06:59 if you don't have voice 16:07:01 you can type 16:07:03 and nobody will see 16:07:05 your typing 16:07:15 yeah... 16:07:19 --- mode: futhin set -m 16:07:23 and what is that good 4? 16:07:43 <`kwahsog> uhm...for keeping people quiet while Mr. Moore is speaking =) 16:07:45 its make 1 an exceptional person? 16:07:52 it is good for not letting people who make rude comments speak 16:07:57 <`kwahsog> no...any number of people can be +v'ed 16:08:05 onetom: everybody can be voiced 16:08:11 and it'll seem like a normal channel 16:08:11 `kwahsog: hey, man, stop handling me as a jerk. im not dumb 16:08:25 <`kwahsog> one: I am not handling you like a jerk 16:08:29 `kwahsog: plz dont repeat obvious things 16:08:38 <`kwahsog> I apologize, then :P 16:08:48 right kwa 16:08:50 <`kwahsog> it's not my intention to annoy you 16:08:54 fine fine, lets stop talking about +v 16:09:04 now that everyone understands it.. 16:09:04 no 16:09:06 not yet 16:09:18 let me show how do i think what +v is 16:09:31 +m is a channel mode, right? 16:09:41 <`kwahsog> onetom: seriously! I apologize, that wasn't how I was trying to come across 16:10:14 `kwahsog: k, no problem. just listen 2 me & try 2 help again afterwards, right? 16:10:15 <`kwahsog> onetom: yes 16:10:20 ok 16:10:22 <`kwahsog> it is the channel mode 16:10:25 <`kwahsog> +v and +o are user modes 16:10:30 k 16:10:36 so 16:11:01 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 16:11:27 if some1 sends a public msg 2 the channel 16:11:40 it will b sent 2 everybody else 16:11:42 UNLESS 16:12:12 the chan is +m and taht yourenot voiced or opped 16:12:13 ;p 16:12:14 the channel is +m and he is not +v or +o right? 16:12:18 yes 16:12:37 <`kwahsog> close...the channel mode +m sets a "global" condition, so to speak...and the +o and +v make exceptions for users 16:12:40 <`kwahsog> allowing them to speak 16:12:50 <`kwahsog> basically, it is a "user level", if you will 16:13:57 <`kwahsog> but yeah 16:14:01 <`kwahsog> basically what you said 16:14:04 "if someone sends a public msg to the channel, it will be sent to everybody else unless the channel is +m and he is not +v or +o 16:14:38 <`kwahsog> but the emphasis is that the channel is a primitive hierarchy 16:15:11 <`kwahsog> while -m, the hierarchy really doesn't matter beyond the ops 16:15:52 <`kwahsog> am I fudging this? 16:15:57 <`kwahsog> perhaps I am the idiot 16:15:59 who cares heh :) 16:16:03 onetom: continue! :) 16:16:10 <`kwahsog> (not that I am inferring that onetom is an idiot...) 16:16:12 everybody 16:16:19 <`kwahsog> jeez 16:16:21 questions are at 16:16:21 <`kwahsog> I am on a role today 16:16:28 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/questions.txt 16:16:30 <`kwahsog> I'll shut up before I piss anyone else off 16:16:31 <`kwahsog> :P 16:16:41 these are questions that haven't been asked yet 16:16:45 i also sorted them up 16:16:52 i haven't finished going thru some ppl's questions 16:17:02 like onetom's & jim's & i440r 16:17:08 so it's not finished 16:17:27 <`kwahsog> onetom: mind if I message you? 16:17:33 : dispach ( -- f ) channel mode m-flag isoff sender mode dup o-flag ison swap v-flag ison or or ; 16:18:03 sorry, i was tinkering w the code above ... 16:18:26 `kwahsog: u shouldnt msg me , just say publicly 16:18:32 what u want 16:19:02 <`kwahsog> c'mon...I'll be quick :P 16:19:08 and stop beggin 4 pardon, im not really offended :) 16:19:15 k, then go on 16:20:26 onetom 16:20:29 lets get back on topic 16:20:33 interview system 16:21:35 good 16:21:48 let me show u my imagination 16:22:07 --- quit: CrowKilr (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:22:08 --- join: CrowKille (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 16:22:49 --- nick: CrowKille -> CrowKilr 16:23:05 in a moderated interview like yesterdays 1 was 16:23:22 lets define the various inputs & out puts 16:23:38 define the participant types & the like 16:24:06 the aim of such an interview is 2 produce a 16:24:09 Q: .... 16:24:12 air: .... 16:24:22 fuck autocompletion 16:24:23 A: 16:24:27 ok 16:24:32 Q: ,,,,,, 16:24:37 A: ........ 16:24:38 A: ........ 16:24:40 A: ........ 16:24:44 Q: ...... 16:24:47 <`kwahsog> sitn: good to hear... 16:24:50 A: ..... 16:24:50 <`kwahsog> w/c 16:25:14 like list 16:25:54 so this have 2 b 1 of the outputs of such an event 16:26:06 but lets see how fast is it 16:26:22 if only 1 person talks textually 16:26:26 its not too fast 16:26:53 thats why there r usually more than 1 person talks on irc simulteniously 16:27:21 coz we can use those idle times while others r typing 16:27:56 for communicating 2 others and make other threads of thoughts make headway 16:28:30 certainly the processing capacity of the participants r not equal 16:28:41 * processing power 16:29:23 so of them could b just satisfied w that tempo what the person being interview can produce 16:29:33 for those the story ends here 16:29:44 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:30:07 they can use the idle im talkin above 4 composing their own questions 16:30:18 IF they wanna ask @ all... 16:30:43 so we can divide the audience up by this attributes 16:30:48 too much complicated 16:30:52 1, intent 2 ask 16:31:05 2, processing power 16:31:11 an irc interview works like this 16:31:23 the interviewed person is opped 16:31:32 and so are the moderators 16:31:32 but now lets see what does the ceremony master do 16:31:41 hey! 16:31:46 stop! 16:31:47 when you want to ask a question 16:31:50 crowkilr: don't worry about it!! 16:31:54 you ak a moderator 16:32:04 crowkilr: onetom is using imagination to create a possible better system 16:32:06 ask a moderator and hop your question is evaluated 16:32:09 don't start debunking it just yet!! 16:32:19 is it too dumb or not? 16:32:21 shhh 16:32:22 ok 16:32:22 heh 16:32:24 dont mix up the thing w already existing irc phonemenons! 16:32:31 lets think absdtract 1st! 16:32:52 & test the already available tools 16:32:59 i think practial first, and then resort to abstract ;p 16:33:01 sorry ;p 16:33:04 wheather they r suitalbe or not 16:33:18 CrowKilr: thats a bad habit , ithink 16:33:48 k, lets continue 16:33:48 <`kwahsog> how about thinking abstractly about the practical? =) 16:34:05 <`kwahsog> nm 16:34:19 `kwahsog: the time for that also comes soon, just lemme finish ;) 16:34:44 so the CM (not Chuck Moore but the Ceremony Master) 16:34:55 moderator? ;p 16:34:55 have 2 process a lot of info 16:35:31 CrowKilr: grrrr that a term sticked 2 irc 16:35:42 CrowKilr: and it means much more than CM 16:35:49 CrowKilr: its not abstract enough 16:36:17 so the CM hears everyone on the channel 16:36:39 that is he must have the power 4 processing all those msgs 16:37:07 and he also have 2 separate the incoming msgs 16:37:15 by destination 16:37:35 while he also have 2 listen 2 the invited person(s) 16:37:58 wheather r they "over", that is ready 4 the next question 16:38:14 BUT if (s)he has the power for this 16:38:41 (power doesnt mean reign, but 16:38:43 <-- didn't really pay close attention to what chuck said.. will have to review logs 16:38:56 i paid close enough attention to know what topic he was on generally 16:39:01 work/time) 16:39:02 but i was focused on the other aspect 16:39:06 aspects* 16:39:32 futhin: 1 more sentence plz, then u go 16:40:00 so if he has that much power, then other ppl from that audience could also have 16:40:26 so why not involve them 2 the work of the CM? 16:40:29 futhin: u go! 16:40:36 i'm done 16:40:38 u go 16:40:40 sad 16:40:51 what else were u focusing? 16:41:00 i was focusing on handling the questions 16:41:00 on 16:41:02 and talking to ppl 16:41:09 and making sure they rephrased their questions 16:41:13 and giving them opportunities 16:41:25 <`kwahsog> I think you have should have one person to post questions 16:41:33 <`kwahsog> and another to approve them 16:41:52 futhin: did u understand what does kwa said? 16:41:55 <`kwahsog> so, neither person gets loaded up :P 16:41:55 hm, that could work 16:41:55 say 16:42:09 probably a good idea 16:42:16 `kwahsog: what does ur 1st sentence mean? 16:42:23 [01:41] <`kwahsog> I think you have should have one person to post questions 16:42:27 onetom: one person to handling collecting the questions 16:42:33 <`kwahsog> onetom: one person should be in charge of "cutting and pasting" 16:42:39 and one person to put the questions into the channel 16:42:40 yeah 16:42:40 as needed 16:42:41 <`kwahsog> and that is about it 16:42:51 aha 16:42:52 c 16:42:56 thx 16:43:12 <`kwahsog> =) 16:43:12 so it could b a pipeline :) 16:43:19 <`kwahsog> onetom: that is what I was thinking 16:43:30 <`kwahsog> originally I was thinking someone should handle the questions by email 16:43:31 futhin: ive summarized the task of the CM very well 16:43:35 <`kwahsog> futhin suggested another channel 16:43:36 tasks 16:43:41 goshawk: yeah, the person collecting the questions can paste questions into the channel if they are continuation questions/remarks 16:43:51 `kwahsog: no, onetom suggested another channel 16:43:56 <`kwahsog> futhin: yeah 16:44:06 <`kwahsog> futhin: right...and that's fine 16:44:07 infact .... yes :> 16:44:26 <`kwahsog> although my problem with the channel is being overloaded 16:44:36 overloaded by what? people? 16:44:41 kwa: what channel? 16:44:43 <`kwahsog> yeah 16:44:48 <`kwahsog> the "questions" channel that is 16:44:55 aha.... 16:44:59 <`kwahsog> if everyone is talking at one, surely it might be a mess 16:45:02 <`kwahsog> one = once 16:45:22 thats why i think there should b a 3rd "thing" 4 questions 16:45:35 not a channel 16:45:43 but a ?list? .... 16:46:02 a smart list what is a priority queue infact 16:46:33 questions should be grouped by topic 16:46:40 <`kwahsog> onetom: you mean a bot? 16:46:42 * onetom is dreaming 4 a while... 16:46:59 the questions should be grouped by topic, and a cluster of the same topic questions given to chuck moore.. 16:47:02 kwa :))) u man... u cant think abstractly... 16:47:10 and some kind of FLOW is created 16:47:16 <`kwahsog> one: everyone has their shortcomings =) 16:47:24 kwa: yeah, reverse name yourself! :P 16:47:30 <`kwahsog> futhin: no :P 16:47:36 or switch to the `ailaT one 16:47:37 <`kwahsog> =) 16:48:02 bleah.. i prefer goshawk heh 16:48:21 interlude: where does the ` come from? eg soap also uses it in his nick... 16:48:29 <`kwahsog> I thought you said it was 'refreshing?'? =) 16:48:43 kwa: the `ailaT one 16:48:47 <`kwahsog> I use it because it is there, and is acceptable for use in nick names 16:49:08 <`kwahsog> futhin: oh =) 16:49:17 --- nick: futhin -> | 16:49:21 but its really hard 2 type it 4 me... ( 16:49:25 :( 16:49:25 --- nick: | -> `|} 16:49:45 its accessible via shift-7 on me keyb 16:50:06 --- nick: `|} -> | 16:50:07 and its not even written on it 16:50:15 <`kwahsog> one: oh...it shared the tilde key on my keyboard 16:50:15 sorry altgr-7 16:50:21 --- nick: | -> futhin 16:50:21 <`kwahsog> it = it is 16:50:53 kwa iknow its originally located on the key beside 1 on the english keyb 16:51:23 <`kwahsog> one: yeah 16:51:24 but thats chased away on other national lang keybs 16:51:42 so its pretty anoying... :( 16:51:43 <`kwahsog> one: obnoxious...many unix shells for one, use it 16:51:46 yeah kwa, you are mean for using ` ! :P 16:51:54 <`kwahsog> futhin: hah =) 16:52:49 gosh sure, unices also use it, but u dont have 2 type it on every 2nd line... 16:53:15 but here -on irc- i should use it all the time while talkin 2 u 16:53:47 and i cant use auto completion this way 16:54:17 i liked ur goshawk nick much better... 16:54:25 --- nick: `kwahsog -> goshawk` 16:54:34 oh, thx :)) 16:54:47 so, lets go back 2 the topic 16:54:50 I didn't use it because I forgot my password for nickserv 16:54:52 =) 16:54:53 the orig topic, imean 16:54:57 just found it 16:55:08 (truly dumb, I know...) 16:55:15 sorry for the inconvenience 16:56:06 futhin r u still here? 16:56:09 yes 16:56:22 goshawk: it doesn't matter if you forgot your password for nickserv.. 16:56:28 you can still use your nick.. 16:56:34 it does if you enabled auto-kill 16:57:08 (which I did awhile back when I was messing around late at night with a friend) 16:57:19 =) 16:57:48 umean u can tell nickserv 2 automatically kill ppl using ur nick after a specific time? 16:58:24 onetom: there is an immediate kill option, whereyou have to identify to it from an alternative nick, and there is a one minute time limit 16:58:40 I had the latter 16:58:43 c 16:58:45 bleah, i almost never identify for my nick heh 16:58:57 but anyways 16:58:59 not even me :) 16:58:59 i'm getting bored 16:59:01 so lets go back 16:59:03 to interview systems 16:59:04 hah 16:59:07 design 16:59:12 yeah...I am not sure how we deviated this far =) 16:59:16 interview systems design 16:59:21 k, ive imagined a system 16:59:36 onetom: there _is_ a list.. all the ppl msging me 16:59:38 its complex & probably doesnt suites 4 irc 16:59:46 and i can cut'n'paste that into a text file 16:59:54 imean it requires a separate program 16:59:54 and do prioritizing and grouping 17:00:06 but lets omit it for a while 17:00:53 futhin: k, do it, but probably lets defer the actual data processing now 17:01:05 lets concentrate on the design instead 17:01:29 imagine a list of questions 17:01:32 well is this interview system restricted to irc ? 17:01:54 each of them belong 2 1 person 17:02:25 futhin: its gonna b a question manager system 17:02:45 futhin: runing on top of the famous "whatever" protocol :) 17:03:15 so lets focus on the look of the system 1st 17:03:45 posting a Q into the list 17:03:58 opens a discussion channel 4 that question 17:04:37 haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa too much stuff youre too far into the abstract ;p look a nwesgroup code and adapt it so it can run realtime et voilà, your system is completed, manageable etc etc etc ;p just my 2 cents 17:04:48 this allows other ppl from the audience (w enough processing text power ;) 17:04:50 haha 17:05:13 to answer that question 17:05:21 or help correcting/appending it 17:05:58 CrowKilr: u r right, its gonna b sg like news 17:06:07 ok 17:06:15 so this is a thread system or some such ;) 17:06:18 CrowKilr: tho, it was designed not 2 b realtime 17:06:20 now we apply it to irc 17:06:27 and become masters of the interview universe ;) 17:06:45 CrowKilr: so thats a dead-end 2 modify the code of a news system 17:06:57 futhin: yes 17:07:17 now let me introduce some ideas about it 17:07:34 ive already 2 clean ideas related 2 it 17:08:04 1 is the person who asked that Q (who put it into the list) 17:08:13 is the operator of that list 17:08:23 eeeerr 17:08:31 a newsgroup system is the perfect archiving, continual interview system youre looking for, maybe not realtime but its a matter of implementation 17:08:37 is the operator of that discussion channel 17:08:47 theres also script to conduct interviews on IRC 17:08:57 scriptsssss in fact ;p 17:09:09 CrowKilr: w the 1st part i still dont agree 17:09:12 crowkilr: what functionality do they provide? what paradigms? 17:09:28 CrowKilr: and about the scripts.... well give us urls 17:09:31 btw, newsgroups are crap ;) 17:09:41 newsgroups aren't crap =) 17:09:45 pure diaherra 17:09:47 hmmm ill try 17:09:50 maybe lol 17:09:51 no 17:09:51 CrowKilr: futhin is right. explore those 4 us while we r planning 17:09:54 forget about the urls 17:09:58 just what about the functionality? 17:09:59 not all of them, anyway 17:10:00 heheh :) 17:10:06 but in theory theyre great ;p 17:10:15 CrowKilr: if u find a suitable/smart 1 let us know its url, k? 17:10:47 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 17:11:00 so, imagine the following situ 17:11:15 --- nick: futhin -> ation 17:11:17 i asked chuck about "regexp implemented in 4th" 17:11:35 explain what is regexp 17:11:45 --- nick: ation -> futhin 17:11:50 ation: good appetite :) 17:12:01 futhin: ??? 17:12:04 ation = situ .. ation 17:12:08 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-159-11.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 17:12:10 :))))))9 17:12:12 :) 17:12:16 just teasing 17:12:37 ation is also a form of the verb *eat* doesnt it? 17:12:42 nope 17:12:46 eat, ate 17:12:51 eaten 17:13:10 he ate recently, he has eaten recently 17:13:21 yeah 17:13:22 continue 17:13:26 we keep getting distracted 17:13:29 we're so slow 17:13:29 -ation \-a"tion\ (&?;). [L. -ationem. See -tion.] 17:13:30 A suffix forming nouns of action, and often equivalent to the 17:13:30 verbal substantive in -ing. It sometimes has the further 17:13:31 .... 17:13:46 explain regexp to me pls 17:13:50 i cant find any script with an interview feature sorry 17:14:02 so u really dont know what regexps r? 17:14:21 CrowKilr: never mind, keep on helping :) 17:14:21 thought it would exist, maybe i dont call it by the real name they gave to this functionality 17:14:40 my faith is in the +m lol 17:15:01 futhin: grep, sed, awk, perl all uses regexps 17:15:09 futhin: u know them dont u? 17:15:10 woah 17:15:12 hello :) 17:15:40 just explain regexp 17:15:51 regexp is a string 17:15:52 i've used grep.. 17:15:59 interrogate the unviersal internet mastermind: GOOGLE 17:16:00 what represent a set of strings 17:16:13 probably a set w infinite elements 17:16:17 HE KNOWS EVERYTHING ;pppp lol 17:16:25 good idea 17:16:27 regular expressions express regular languages :) 17:16:40 futhin: try 'dict "regular expression"' 17:17:08 regexp strings r used 2 search substrings in a text 17:17:25 historical note: 17:17:27 The earliest form of regular expressions (and the term itself) 17:17:28 were invented by mathematician {Stephen Cole Kleene} in the 17:17:28 mid-1950s, as a notation to easily manipulate "regular sets", 17:17:28 formal descriptions of the behaviour of {finite state 17:17:28 machines}, in {regular algebra}. 17:17:40 such a matcher algorithm 17:18:00 I'm always impressed by how old certain things are 17:18:04 davidw: how smart u r.... next time plz ask b4 flooding... 17:18:31 like lisp, for instance 17:18:32 wtf is my newsreader being so slow 17:19:00 davidw: u should suspend those xxx downloads... ;) 17:19:02 hrmph - it was just 5 lines 17:19:13 sorry, though 17:19:19 no no, im sorry 17:19:27 im a bit nervous 2 day :) 17:19:51 and it was really interesting 4 me 2 17:20:12 futhin: should i continue? 17:20:38 onetom: davidw didn't flood.. 5 lines isn't flooding :P 17:20:44 on my screen anyways 17:20:49 continue i guess.. 17:20:59 david: yeah...lisp is older than fortran, strangely 17:21:06 you wanted to ask chuck moore how to implement regexp in forth ?? 17:21:12 futhin: sure sure, iknow.... tho, my screen is just about 20lines now.. 17:21:50 futhin: he? cont w what? explainin regexp or explaining the situ? 17:22:33 situ 17:22:37 k 17:22:48 so after askin 17:23:11 and probably after seening that chuck didnt get what i want 17:23:23 jeff fox has msged me an answer 17:24:12 now lets c how does this situ could have been happened in my imaginary system 17:24:21 i put the question in the Q 17:25:11 u, the CM, forward it 1 the pub channel (that is u ask it 4 mw) 17:25:12 me 17:25:28 then chuck answers it 17:25:52 but the Q still cant b considered Answered 17:26:06 so u "put it back 2 the Q" 17:26:29 Q == Queue OR Question 17:26:34 context decides 17:26:36 right? 17:26:39 k 17:26:50 now comes jeff 17:26:53 http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/html/lisp/histlit1.html <<< history of lisp 17:27:14 and he answers the Q 17:27:38 so after I or the CM notices that 17:28:22 we can flag that Q answers so it travels out of sight 17:28:36 it goes into and other list 17:29:03 into "the list of A'ed Qs" 17:29:39 was it clear up to now? 17:30:27 sure 17:30:51 now let me introduce the 2nd idea 17:31:07 but let me ask u 1st 17:31:16 it blows me away to think about that 17:31:17 whats UR job w this list? 17:31:24 u have to sort it right? 17:31:27 .... I mean... think about the 1950's 17:31:47 C wouldn't be invented for another 10 years... likewise forth 17:31:59 onetom: sure 17:32:00 everyone had punch cards 17:32:10 davidw: yeaah :))) 17:32:10 and that guy invented lisp... it boggles the mind 17:32:39 I think LispM's are pretty neat 17:32:45 davidw: it was weired 2 think about such serious stuff wo proper development environment... :/ 17:32:47 onetom: continue 17:32:52 futhin: ok 17:33:03 Fare owns one, if I recall (a Symbolics MacIvory) 17:33:14 futhin: what about allowing the audience 2 help u sorting the questions? 17:33:21 nobody distract us or i'll 4dm1n1st3r m4d b34td0wnz! 17:33:41 :) 17:34:21 now imagine the audience's perspective 17:34:52 a listener watches (what he touch :) 17:35:04 huh 17:35:07 that guy's still alive 17:35:15 whats the word 4 "a person from the audience"? 17:35:27 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/personal.html 17:35:34 onetom: a member of the audience 17:35:44 no shorter 1? 17:35:59 like audiee or the like :DDD 17:36:02 onetom: outsider? watcher? member? .. 17:36:28 participant? 17:37:01 sleeper 17:37:08 so a particiapant watches the 17:37:12 jeez 17:37:22 just go with member or viewer or something 17:37:31 yeah :))) sleeper... what u put on ur feet, suure ;) 17:37:39 we seem to be getting off track.. got off track 100 times so far? :P 17:37:41 pretty amazing .... born in 1927 17:37:57 a spectator? 17:38:03 that is such a word 17:38:05 davidw: is he still coding? :)) 17:38:10 goshawk`: gooood 1 17:38:24 futhin: lets call them spectators 17:38:27 right? 17:38:28 onetom: I doubt it, but... it must be satisfying to be able to watch your creation grow like that 17:38:43 onetom: there aren't too many fields that evolve so fast 17:38:59 so fast as what? 17:39:01 lisp? 17:39:15 --- join: kidlinux (~kidlinux@h24-70-129-224.su.shawcable.net) joined #forth 17:39:19 my kung foo is unique. 17:39:28 mine too 17:39:30 yeah... computers in general 17:39:31 i took gung foo 17:39:32 ayyay... 17:39:34 for 2 years 17:39:38 ph33r m33#!!! 17:39:38 is that i44or? 17:39:41 no 17:39:55 he was already a teenager when world war two was happening 17:40:10 he is the 1 who always mentions kungfoo, doesnt he? 17:40:16 onetom: nope 17:40:24 then, who? u? 17:40:25 r 17:40:28 onetom: he doesn't do kung foo, does something else 17:40:32 now any old computer can run a lisp and god knows what else 17:40:32 anyway, enough babbling 17:40:32 sleep! 17:40:34 yes, i mention kung foo every now and then 17:40:42 :) okay 17:40:50 bleah 17:41:07 so the spectator spectates the main channel 17:41:18 and sometimes winks on the question list 17:41:57 and he shouts: "aahh! thats just the question 1 also wanted 2 ask!" 17:42:21 1 = i ? 17:42:27 so he clicks on it 2 give it a "priority point" 17:42:29 er nm 17:42:46 ok interesting 17:42:53 or sorts the list for himself 17:43:01 perhaps we can implement it this kind of thing using a bot 17:43:06 the person can msg a bot 17:43:09 type "list" 17:43:10 the others can also do this sorting 17:43:14 and see a list of questions 17:43:22 or something similar 17:43:47 and via this sortin u can see what questions considered the most interesting 17:44:00 --- quit: CrowKilr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:44:12 futhin: no i dont think so... :/ 17:44:21 onetom: yes i think so 17:44:39 futhin: the usual irc client is not suitable for such a complicated stuff... 17:44:50 im thinkink in a tcltk program 17:45:03 onetom: wtf?! i said "BOT" 17:45:11 so it could b usable on lots of platforms 17:45:21 bot is a program running on a computer, it connects to the irc server 17:45:25 and makes magic happen 17:45:26 k 17:45:28 yup 17:45:31 thats right 17:45:55 so don't say "no i don't think so.." 17:46:13 .... 17:46:16 why? 17:46:38 cause you were disagreeing that a bot could be used? 17:46:51 do note...ten pages or so back (on my fifty line terminal)...I said the word "bot" 17:47:02 :P 17:47:14 goshawk: useless unless you suggested _how_ to use it 17:47:27 it was shot down before I got that far 17:47:41 I forgot what I was going to say :P 17:47:51 futhin: yeah, ithink this task requires more than what a bot could accomplish... 17:47:57 irc requires internal fortitude with mentally challenged people 17:48:02 brb 17:48:27 well it would be nice to do the bot in forth 17:48:30 i'll talk to i440r 17:48:32 and set up a list bot 17:48:36 or not 17:48:44 depending on how lazy i am.. woo! 17:49:26 futhin: dont bother our lil eeyor w this 17:49:37 i wont b ready until 18th :p 17:50:05 but if i will do it... h-hmmm ;) 17:50:15 i wont b finished either, i quess :) 17:50:18 guess 17:50:48 futhin: do u know about any nice & fast gui designer? 17:51:05 i could hack an example gui 17:51:16 just 2 show it 2 u 17:51:18 all 17:51:41 vtcl is a nice .... 17:51:58 candidate 17:52:08 but it has disappeared from sid :( 17:53:12 ah, nevemind. got it. the deb pkg is called visual-tcl 17:55:55 onetom: hm? we can make the list bot before the 18th 17:56:01 no need for tcl 17:56:05 can do it in forth 17:56:06 :P 17:56:21 the bot would be used by ppl 17:56:24 to input questions 17:56:31 and see questions already existing 17:56:38 well... 17:56:39 and vote for questions 17:56:43 to give priority 17:56:52 i dream it a dynamic system 17:57:01 an absolutely realtime 1 17:57:49 if i could create a character based gui 17:58:06 (from any lang 4 *nix terminals) 17:58:21 i would make it in forth probably 17:58:46 but i still dont know any gui api for terminals 17:59:11 im not even know about how 2 handle mouse events from inside a terminal 17:59:24 so tcl/tk is a better choice 4 the gui 17:59:35 onetom: the bot would be used by ppl THRU IRC 18:00:27 the irc "platform" is not suitable 4 visualizing such a dynamic info 18:00:38 do u know TOP? 18:00:57 (and not even a web interface is suitable) 18:01:08 i'm talking about implmenting this for the irc online interview 18:01:16 you are still being abstract are you not? 18:01:46 irc is very realtime.. and dynamic 18:01:57 a list bot can be realtime & dynamic.. 18:01:59 :P 18:02:09 eh, u cant really image my vision 18:02:13 comeon 18:02:20 login 2 me machine 18:02:24 and try top 18:02:28 brb 18:02:36 ah top 18:02:39 i remember 18:02:44 shows cpu usage, etc 18:03:04 typing it in capitals as TOP made no synaptic connections inside my brain 18:09:04 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:10:50 back 18:11:10 --- join: CrowKilr (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth 18:11:11 now imagine how could u make an irc interface 4 top 18:11:39 (reboot) 18:12:06 dont think i missed much Forth talk around here ;p 18:12:15 crow: =) 18:12:40 well duh, forth is stupid, and nobody wants to talk about that crap, yay 18:14:13 so anybody got any ideas how to make an irc interface for top ???????? 18:14:58 i'm thinking of just oneliners every few seconds depicting change or something 18:15:02 you can't just time the refreshes and pipe it into a file? 18:15:50 futhin: but it make 2 much traffic 18:16:26 futhin: an imagine that all lines of top (the processes) r similar 2 the Qs in our case 18:16:50 and actually every Qs is a separate channel... 18:18:21 * onetom tries 2 put together a sample gui in vtcl 2 express his intents... 18:18:56 uh? aren't you going to apply your ideas to irc? 18:23:04 futhin: unless u give me usable suggestions how, i wont... 18:23:07 yet.. 18:23:25 tho, we can make it accessible via irc too, but 18:23:43 it wont be a convenient environment, iguess... 18:29:41 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:30:09 * onetom is gettin tired :( 18:30:21 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-54-75-118.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 18:33:48 futhin: im gonna show u a screenshot about a gui for this task and then we can get back 2 discussing 18:38:12 --- nick: mmc -> mmc|away 18:38:35 i think ive got an idea at how to implement a forth assembler 18:38:50 the cell would be byte large 18:39:07 the a register point into memory where the next compiled byte should go 18:39:35 the !+ word move TOP to adr in a and increment a 18:40:44 for a mov reg32, imm32 18:40:52 the word would look like 18:41:19 hmm 18:41:26 the stack goes in TOP 18:41:43 --- quit: futhin ("bbl") 18:41:47 we add to that the 8B mov constant 18:41:58 then we do a a !+ 18:42:12 then we do !+ in correct order of endianess 18:42:17 the stack image would be 18:42:44 (imm32 REGnumber -- ) 18:43:16 imm32 is the immediate data in correct endianness and the reg number is the official opcode offsets for registers 18:43:28 liek EAX=0 CX = 1 etc 18:43:49 the maximum value is therefore 8 18:44:16 and for the immediate, 4 gb 18:45:56 k, now show a piece of code, what can do all of the above 18:46:26 let it know about only this single instruction 18:50:03 ok...it is official...everyone definitely appears to be in a bad mood, tonight 18:50:04 :P 18:51:01 anyway...be back whenever 18:51:02 :P 19:11:49 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-175.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 19:11:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 19:12:03 hiya all 19:13:31 'ello 19:14:17 hiya Soap` 19:25:57 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 19:26:00 hello 19:26:36 Hi. 19:27:10 Well, just wanted to drop by and say hi, see ya all later! 19:28:00 hiya BigBoyToddy 19:31:10 %macro CONSTANT 0 ;compile a "mov reg32, imm" closed term 19:31:10 dip ;The stack contains the number in x86 mnemonics (0-7), 19:31:10 ;of the reg32 to adress. Ex: (first item is 0, etc) 19:31:10 ;EAX, ECX, EDX, EBX, ESP, EBP, ESI, EDI 19:31:10 add EAX, 8Bh 19:31:11 ;The immediate data (32 bits in pmode) is placed 19:31:13 ;after the inst in little endianness manner (reverse) 19:31:15 a!+ 19:31:17 mov EAX, 1h 19:31:19 BLOPLOPBLOP ;"trimming word removing the 3 most significant bytes (zeroes)" 19:31:21 dip 19:31:23 a!+ 19:31:25 %endmacro 19:35:05 --- quit: kidlinux ("Client Exiting") 19:36:33 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:49:07 gotta go...bye all 19:49:07 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:49:21 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:50:24 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:57:03 --- quit: bob4th () 20:06:50 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 20:25:05 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust122.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 20:25:07 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:25:31 hi air :) 20:31:44 hi 20:34:49 crow :) 20:37:27 I stumbled across this paper: http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthassembler.html 20:37:43 ill try to implement some of whats written here within my assembler project 20:37:48 hey I440r 20:37:51 bed time! 20:37:52 seeya :) 20:37:58 hey joa :) 20:38:03 nite nite :) 20:38:10 heh, not really gonna go RIGHT away :) 20:38:23 I was wondering about something forth related yesterday 20:38:49 just thought I'd say that in here since I rarely mention the subject and i wanted it to be logged that I have said something forth related in here before 20:39:06 lol 20:39:11 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 20:39:15 wb futhin :) 20:39:23 hey 20:39:29 crow yea ive seen that stuff, its a totally non standard assembler :) 20:39:33 futhin you got a job to do 20:39:50 i440r? 20:39:51 you need to get the log of the interview and edit all the joinings and partings etc out of it 20:39:57 did that 20:39:58 and mail it to jeff fox 20:39:58 :P 20:40:03 well, I don't remember what it was but I do remember saying to myself, "I should write that down... I really want to know the answer" 20:40:04 mailed it to jeff ? 20:40:08 not mailed yet 20:40:10 editted it 20:40:12 so I'll write it down next time I think of it and talk to you tomorrow :) 20:40:20 futhin: night :) night everyone else 20:40:27 i440r: do you think i should edit it down to the bare essentials? 20:40:36 i440r: like, remove all the silly things i said, or u said or whatever.. 20:40:40 just questions and answers? 20:41:06 dont remove comments 20:41:08 just the cruft 20:41:20 what exactly is the cruft besides joins/parts 20:41:24 if someone SAID something - that stays in 20:41:30 server messages? 20:41:42 anything thats not someone saying something ehh 20:42:24 yeah, but what about the context stuff? 20:42:33 like when i set +m etc 20:43:43 that can be considerd cruft 20:43:50 and +o and -o happenings 20:44:43 well a lot of the conversation 20:44:47 er 20:45:01 a lot of the begining conversation wouldn't make sense if we removed the +m and -m stuff 20:45:10 i removed all the +o stuff 20:45:15 ok 20:45:26 but i left in the chipchuck join and thefox join 20:45:32 and i'm thinking leaving the +m stuff 20:47:16 the log has a timestamp 20:47:22 for every line.. 20:47:27 yea heh 20:47:30 should i leave that in or not? 20:47:35 that sounds good:) 20:47:58 btw two ppl on clf said we did a realy good job with the interview :) 20:48:21 well one of them is bigboytoddy, and he told me to do +m, so of course he's going to be biased :P 20:48:35 he influenced me on the +m thing ya know :) 20:48:47 errr "i" told you to do +n :P 20:49:00 erm +m 20:49:02 lol 20:49:06 yeah sure 20:49:19 but anyone with any smarts would think it the best way to go 20:49:28 but you weren't _convincing_ me or saying it assertively.. 20:49:30 i told you to remove strictops so we could +m 20:49:58 if you didnt remove strictops we couldnt set +m because we wouldnt be able to op chipchuck :P 20:49:59 dummy 20:50:02 :P~ 20:50:04 heh 20:50:19 some ppl were thinking it shouldn't have been +m.. but i guess we'll do that for next time 20:50:34 i think we did it the best way 20:50:39 a combo +m and -m next time.. 20:50:48 but i would have liked a freeforall at the end 20:50:59 btw, i don't think we'll advertise about chuck's next visit on comp.lang.forth 20:51:10 i think we'll keep it smaller, less noise.. 20:51:15 mrreach influencing me here 20:51:43 i440r: yeah, and goshawk thought that i should've taken a half an hour break halfway 20:51:49 maybe we should do that next time 20:51:51 well i think keeping it secret would be being mean to all his other fans 20:51:56 half an hour break :) 20:52:05 the more people we encourage INTO the channel the better for the channel 20:52:18 i440r: no, we wouldn't keep it secret, we just wouldn't post it to the comp.lang.forth :P 20:52:27 it'll be in the topic and everything 20:52:35 hehe i wonder if chipchuck understood the significance of the channel limit hehe 20:52:40 and all those sorry bastards who don't come to this channel to check the topic 20:52:45 can stay away :P 20:52:55 heh 20:53:00 i dunno.. 20:53:12 maybe chuck will say "yes, please advertise it" or whatever 20:53:19 i think we should advertise on clf 20:53:38 why? :) 20:53:42 heh 20:54:01 yeah, we'll see.. 20:54:33 channel is back down to normal levels.. seems like we have about 5 new ppl idling on this chan.. 20:54:51 because i would LIKE the event to become a VERY regular thing hehe 20:54:56 at least once a year etc 20:55:05 once a day would be better of corse.... 20:55:22 once a day would be too much excitement heh 20:55:23 bute chippy has REAL work to do too i guess :P 20:55:31 besides, we'd get bored too quickly 20:56:22 we got some fakes on this chan heh 20:57:28 you mean like you ??? :) 20:57:29 lol 20:57:31 sorry 20:57:34 couldnt resist hehe 20:57:53 gotta admit tho dood - ya did a realy cool job of it 20:59:25 im reading the interview and its great 20:59:32 was it yesterday?? 20:59:40 yes 20:59:42 yes 20:59:46 weren't you there?? 21:00:09 i started going on this chan today damnit!!!! 21:00:15 ouch 21:00:19 how did you find out about the chan? 21:00:21 chuck moore haaaaaaaaa i missed it lol 21:00:34 l440r told me the other time on undernet #asm 21:00:35 he's coming back on the 18th or some other time.. 21:00:49 and also i ve checked the com.lan.fortrh newsgroup 21:00:57 that how i got the url for the log 21:01:49 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 21:16:19 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 21:16:48 anyway i really found it interesting when i read text or hear conferences of chuck moore, this guy's my hero lol 21:41:55 if he's back the 18th ill be there, see ya everyone 21:42:53 --- quit: CrowKilr ("Chniak!") 22:15:22 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 22:22:28 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-54-75-118.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 22:22:39 --- join: mlg (mlg-no-spa@mg.dorms.spbu.ru) joined #forth 22:24:16 Hey :) 22:25:25 just put yesterday's interview with cm at http://www.forth.org.ru/~mlg/toussovki/cm.05.04.2002.txt (for me, it was yesterday, but finally it's 9am here now) 22:25:55 07:30 here :) 22:26:17 btw, http://www.forth.org.ru/~mlg is a cool address :) 22:26:45 indeed, 9:30am. BTW, is it am or pm for you? 22:28:08 Since I live in swede, just a little bit west of you, I guess it's am :) 22:28:21 07:30 <-- always am, by the way. 22:28:40 am/pm is a bad invention by americans who can't count to 23 :)= 22:29:08 yes, Just looked up in the file, you live in Sweden, so it's am for you. 22:29:49 Do English use am/pm? I agree it's a bad invention. 22:30:52 i doubt americans invented the am/pm convention 22:30:56 it has to do with clocks 22:31:08 analog clocks have only one 12 22:31:17 so am and pm was invented to deal with that 22:31:50 i think perhaps the americans invented the 24 hour thing for their military.. 22:31:53 dunno 22:31:56 anyways 22:31:58 bedtime 22:31:59 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 22:32:44 I wasn't quite serious with that thing about the americans... 22:32:55 ? 22:33:09 I doubt they invented am/pm, that's what I meant. 22:33:38 Ok, anyhow I have to run. bye. 22:33:47 --- quit: mlg ("Leaving") 22:41:47 am/pm is latin :P 22:41:52 yes the english use it 22:42:03 anti meridian, post meridian 22:42:11 i THINK its anit 22:42:16 erm mite be mis-rememberin 22:42:20 heh 22:42:27 :-) 22:42:29 Hey I440r 22:42:32 :) 22:42:50 I hope you don't mind I'm stealing some code from isforth, do you? 22:42:56 lol 22:43:04 THIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 22:43:08 ;) 22:43:19 I'm actually not stealing, but porting to IA-16 22:43:34 :) 22:43:40 Not the entire isforth, of course, but I'm trying to do a simple system to learn from. 22:44:42 ive got to disconnect and reconnect so stupid fuckiing eartlink isp will let me connect to the fucking new server. 22:44:43 brb 22:45:22 Okie :) 22:47:26 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust209.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 22:47:27 --- quit: I440r (Remote closed the connection) 22:47:56 hmm 22:48:01 i wonder if we should have an E.R. interview P) 22:49:25 And who's E.R.? 22:51:12 Eliz Rather :P 22:51:24 And may I ask who that is? 22:51:30 another forth ClueBIE 22:51:42 Hmm... OK.... 22:52:28 she is heavily into the ANS standard 22:52:40 she would have some opposing viewpoints with CM 22:53:25 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m162.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 22:54:41 it would be a way to give the ans standard equal voice in #forth 22:54:50 im anti ans but SOME other people arent :) 22:55:18 I checked out colorforth today. I think I should stick to regular forth for now. 22:59:57 hehe ive never looked at it 23:01:25 Hey GilbertBSD 23:01:36 hi rob_ert 23:02:40 I'm leaving for schoo, cu later. 23:02:48 bubye :) 23:06:24 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 23:20:58 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:26:18 --- join: Soap- (flop@210-54-75-118.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 23:54:10 --- quit: Soap` () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.05.05