00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.04 00:00:33 beb back shortly\ 00:00:50 it might lead to a better understanding of forth you know? 00:01:11 and we might understand his angst afterall. 00:01:34 "how can we understand your angst today, Chuck" 00:01:38 ;) 00:02:25 not in that manner. But if we understood his inspiration, and what drove him to come up with forth the way it was, perhaps we would then know why things irk him the way they do. 00:02:49 gilbertbsd: come up with some questions related to that, right now please :) 00:03:09 well you are making it easy for me to come up with some questions i guess 00:03:41 "Sir Charles, what, pray ... inspired you to design forth the way you did?" 00:04:00 are you trying to be funny? 00:04:16 this is where you go 'lol' ;) 00:04:25 that is what I want to know though... 00:04:41 i thought you were making a serious question but didn't realize it was stupid heh 00:04:50 its not stupid. 00:04:50 the "Sir Charles" part.. 00:05:04 Mr. Moore is enough respect 00:05:16 do Sir in real life 00:05:28 on irc it just seems excessive 00:05:33 we're all kind of equals on irc 00:05:38 it was a joke man. 00:05:42 you were supposed to go 'lol' 00:05:49 that was a comical form of my real question. 00:05:52 heh :) 00:05:55 yeah 00:06:22 sorry for biting your ass 00:06:29 1 am here and i'm pretty tired heh 00:06:41 but do you understand my question at all? 00:06:54 yes, i believe i understand your intent.. 00:07:10 "what inspired you to design forth the way you did?" 00:07:11 was it the most logical thing to come up with? 00:07:16 is it the 'best solution' 00:07:19 that kind of thing. 00:07:31 do you really need to know what inspired him? 00:07:46 can you look into yourself and see the things that can inspire you? 00:07:48 :) 00:07:58 i am an inspired individual 00:08:04 yes I do aamof . 00:08:08 and i know what it feels like to be inspired.. 00:08:12 there are many solutions to the problem... 00:08:23 ok 00:08:28 is it something about computer hardware? is it something about the way asm behaves? 00:08:29 different aspect then 00:08:36 stop 00:08:51 basically, I am interested in the 'axioms of forth' 00:09:24 "What inspired you to create forth the way you did? Was it the most logical thing to come up with? What are the fundamental principles or 'axioms' of forth?" 00:09:40 it boils down to the axioms. 00:09:49 does that statement cover everything? 00:09:59 yes the axiom part covers everything. 00:10:02 i'm cutting and pasting the statement into my text file 00:10:17 got 8 stock questions so far, 9 now 00:10:28 what is the ninth question? 00:10:36 yours 00:10:39 "What inspired you to create forth the way you did? Was it the most logical thing to come up with? What are the fundamental principles or 'axioms' of forth?" 00:11:02 i count that as 1 question 00:11:12 okay ... can I attempt to boil it down? 00:11:27 also there were a bunch of questions on /. are they covered in there again? 00:12:26 futhin do you understand what I mean by 'axioms of forth'? 00:12:51 as opposed tot he pillars of power? 00:12:57 tot he = to the 00:12:57 i'll just tell chuck moore at the begining that he can avoid being redundant and just tell us the information is available on ultratechnology or something 00:13:15 excellent. 00:13:37 futhin: mind if message you? 00:13:46 go ahead 00:13:48 goshawk`: dun worry, I won't tell anyone. 00:13:51 I won't look. 00:13:55 just ask in here man :) 00:14:05 GilbertBSd: tell me your question, boil it down! 00:14:09 you've got the power!!! 00:14:19 don't be afraid to ask smart questions!!!!! 00:14:26 I am trying man. 00:14:47 i am waiting for you 00:14:50 the world is open for you 00:14:58 give me the questions 00:15:00 "What inspired you to create forth the way you did? Was it the most logical thing to come up with? What are the fundamental principles or 'axioms' of forth?" 00:15:01 boil that down 00:15:06 come on, don't be shy 00:15:17 hmmm that kinda looks okay. 00:15:26 I just don't want him to get lost in the maze of that one question. 00:15:45 he won't like it the way it is now... its in a cobol'ey way as it is now ;) 00:16:11 fine, boil it down for me please :P 00:17:03 "What axioms would you say are the absolute fundamentals for creating a forth" 00:17:27 "What axioms would you say are the absolute essentials for designing a forth " 00:17:58 "What axioms would you say guided your decisions as you created 4th" 00:17:59 there. 00:18:05 I think that should nail it. 00:19:23 haha 00:19:26 i got an email from chuck 00:19:27 Don't worry. I've been called God before. If I were, I'd be more 00:19:27 remote, 00:19:27 enigmatic and autocratic. 00:19:28 See you tomorrow. 00:20:04 is that what he said? 00:20:12 that's a direct paste 00:20:14 hahahhahaha 00:20:15 that's all he said 00:20:16 heh 00:20:35 man, that is a classic response! 00:20:42 Up yours Billy Graham. 00:21:09 he's pretty terse :) 00:21:10 but he is Remote and endigmatic. 00:21:16 eh enigmatic 00:21:35 autocratic? perhaps not. 00:41:21 gforth: i .s 00:41:25 GilbertBSD: <1> 1074909644 00:42:01 gforth: :decade 10 0 do i . loop ; decade 00:42:05 GilbertBSD: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 00:42:06 GilbertBSD: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 00:42:06 GilbertBSD: :decade 10 0 do i . loop ; decade 00:42:06 GilbertBSD: ^^^^^^^ 00:42:06 GilbertBSD: Backtrace: 00:42:07 GilbertBSD: $4011D188 throw 00:42:09 GilbertBSD: $401271E8 no.extensions 00:42:22 gforth: : decade 10 0 do i . loop ; decade 00:42:27 GilbertBSD: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 01:03:28 who's awake 01:03:30 it's important 01:03:40 who's awak? 01:03:43 where? 01:03:43 who's awake? 01:03:47 what time zone? 01:03:48 here 01:03:51 no 01:03:54 i mean, who's not idling 01:03:58 who's in the channel 01:04:02 and awake 01:04:09 did I answer your question? 01:04:10 :) 01:04:24 or were you looking for an oldbie? 01:04:32 i'm looking for as many ppl 01:04:35 as possible 01:04:59 Friends, Romans, Forthers, lend brutus your ears . 01:05:01 hehe. 01:05:17 n e way, I'm awake. 01:07:26 what did you want futhin? 01:07:32 I'm still all ears. 01:08:44 gilbertbsd 01:08:49 are you happy with your two questions 01:08:51 GilbertBSD: What inspired you to create forth the way you did? Was it the most logical thing to come up with? 01:08:51 GilbertBSD: What axioms would you say are the absolute essentials for designing a forth? 01:09:21 sure 01:09:40 you are happy with those two questions? 01:09:45 they kind of overlap :) 01:09:50 want to change anything? 01:09:54 yes I do. 01:10:30 ok, what do you want to change? 01:10:31 "what axioms inspired the early design of forth" 01:10:40 scrap the 2 for this one. 01:10:43 ok 01:11:11 so gilbert 01:11:20 how do you think i should handle the moderation of the channel and the questions? 01:11:37 chuck should be allowed to answer each question at his own pace 01:11:43 I think all questions should be channelled through you. 01:11:49 ah 01:12:02 so that if people have more, they msg you first, and then you can bicker over it offscreen. 01:12:30 else if there are 50 people, and each comes up with 3 questions within the time frame, that would be 150 questions to answer. 01:12:33 CM is not a forth. 01:12:41 i'm thinking perhaps a second channel would be used 01:12:45 to deal with the questions 01:12:58 i am only expecting about 20 people to show up 01:13:02 a /msg to you should do the trick no? 01:13:04 15 to 20 in fact 01:13:15 I shall sleep when CM sleeps. 01:13:20 my proposition is have a central person receive quesitons by email...sort them....chck for redundancy with questions asked or abotu to be asked, and then submit them on IRC to a second moderator 01:13:34 gilbert: heh he is probably sleeping right now 01:13:42 no ie when he comes. 01:13:50 he's coming in 12 hours 01:13:52 that way, the moderator moderates, and doesn't worry about abnything else 01:14:08 like making sure questions don't go in circles 01:14:22 but, it may be too cumbersome 01:14:25 so I don't know 01:14:30 perhaps he could mute everyone but you futhin 01:14:58 I really think we shouldn't over load him unnecessarily. he doesn't really need any of us ... 01:15:17 gilbertbsd: i am the owner of the channel, i am the super op of the channel :P 01:15:19 we should try the most curteous approach we can. 01:15:22 right...no one can talk except the moderator and Mr. Moore 01:15:31 i stole the channel from i440r, bwhaha ;) 01:15:32 so we can talk to futhin ... 01:15:37 hehe. 01:15:42 i didn't really steal it 01:15:43 maybe have two backup ops in case of disconnects 01:15:48 he unregistered it 01:16:12 or am I still along EFnet lines of obsolete thinking? 01:16:15 =) 01:20:45 futhin: what questions do you have for CM ? 01:22:29 there's already 2 other ops 01:30:25 good night 01:30:28 bed time for me 01:34:39 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 01:36:19 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-211-39.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 01:41:48 hi davidw 01:59:37 hi 02:00:51 have you ever used basic? 02:01:06 yes, when I was a kid 02:01:18 I had a c64 02:03:11 how on earth is 'sound 1000 30' 'sound 2000 30' possible? 02:03:18 I can only do '7 emit' in forth :( 02:03:49 eh? 02:04:47 in basic... you can type 'sound 1000 30' 02:05:02 and you will get a long beep at a certain pitch 02:05:07 then 'sound 2000 30' 02:05:18 will give you a 30 ms beep at the given pitch 02:05:27 but i don't know how to do that in forth :( 02:13:56 I found the answer for fpc 02:17:18 it's system dependent 02:17:30 but its the same blazing speaker. 02:17:47 so? forth is designed to run on all kinds of hardware 02:17:54 it may not *have* a speaker 02:17:59 right. 02:18:15 if it does have a speaker, how do I go about discovering how to control that speaker with forth? 02:18:16 a given forth might give you a command to interface with it.... or it might not 02:35:39 guys? 02:35:51 whats up w the interview? 02:35:52 ?syug 02:36:03 u all know what will u answer? 02:36:05 its on at 2 pm. 02:36:13 onetom: I gave a question to futhin. 02:36:58 GilbertBSD: :) 02:46:45 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 02:47:20 hi Fare 02:47:25 bastiat 02:47:45 I'd like to switch hosts...be back 02:47:57 --- quit: goshawk` (".") 02:51:30 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 02:58:10 :) 02:58:27 are you a fan of von Mises? 03:00:06 I'm pretty sure I would be if I had read more by him. 03:00:36 the little I've read by him or about him is very encouraging. 03:00:51 fare answer me this: No software can hide from a disassembler is that right? 03:03:39 no software can hide *indefinitely* from a disassembler. 03:03:57 ah okay. 03:04:17 it can hide long enough to bore many disassemblers, tho 03:04:20 I doubt that most people will recognize their dissasembled software if they saw it. 03:04:25 how Fare? 03:04:36 by being obfuscated, etc. 03:05:04 that means you would have had to write in asm no? 03:05:20 write your software in a hll, compile to unlambda, implement unlambda in forth -- you already get quite a good obfuscation. 03:05:50 do you program in unlambda? 03:06:04 no, if you write in asm, you'll be easy to disassemble -- the binary will be very near the source 03:06:15 GilbertBSD: not personally. I know the creator, though. 03:06:36 does he eat parrot eggs for breakfast? 03:06:51 not that I know. Want me to ask? 03:07:03 what motivated his writing unlambda? 03:07:47 writing an obfuscated language. Understanding lambda-calculus and CPS better. 03:08:05 I see. 03:08:06 writing a minimal yet powerful yet unusable language 03:08:15 managing to use an unusable language. 03:08:24 and not just to use it, to master it. 03:08:24 heck I can do the first one. 03:08:31 (see his quine competition in unlambda) 03:08:52 booing his ego 03:10:14 terrible terrible. 03:10:39 I think as an intro to forth, people should be shown unlambda, intercal, befunge, and brainf* 03:10:45 and then last of all, forth. 03:10:55 I think I know what most will pick :) 03:11:21 unlambda? 03:11:29 bah 03:11:45 forth is last on the stack man! 03:12:02 nlambda, intercal, befunge, brainf*, forth 03:12:17 lifo ... (I have been working) 03:12:18 4 ndrop 03:12:28 trickery I tell you. 03:17:49 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 03:18:22 hi rob_ert 03:18:35 robbie! 03:18:44 Hey GilbertBSD 03:18:46 Day C is here ;-) 03:18:48 Farie! 03:24:40 rob_ert: what is Day C? 03:24:59 C stands for Chuck ;) 03:25:10 ahhh 03:25:16 rob_ert: have you used fpc ? 03:25:41 Yes. But if you ask any questions about it, I can't answer them. 03:25:53 Use them when I'm in DOS on my laptop. 03:26:15 I think it is pretty cool. 03:26:48 Hmm... I'd like to choose one forth (or write one), and then learn how to really use it... 03:27:03 Write assembly word definitions for it and so 03:27:09 yeah fpc is my chosen forth 03:27:18 :) 03:28:06 wow. there's no NDROP in FORTH??? 03:29:02 fare I just noticed. 03:29:31 Hmm 03:29:43 How much data do you have on the stack? :) 03:30:42 : ndrop 0 ?do drop loop ; 03:31:21 That's kind of inefficent, I'd say :-) 03:31:40 rob_ert: what would an efficient one look like? 03:31:43 Unless you want to drop 1000 elements, but I guess that's not very likley? 03:31:47 Uhm 03:31:48 I mean 03:31:54 The whole ndrop concept 03:35:05 wow, and S" can always return the same buffer address! 03:35:27 ? 03:35:32 What does S" do? 03:35:36 rob_ert: what's wrong with dropping a hundred elements? 03:35:41 Hmm 03:35:46 When would you need that? 03:35:56 on the HP 28, I would do that once in a while 03:36:24 Hehe 03:36:25 rob_ert: extracting data from a routine that returns many results 03:36:43 Okay :) 03:37:31 * Fare is very worried about lady sophia 03:37:48 she was very depressive, near suicidal, when I left her 03:38:13 fare 'go back' is the operative word man. 03:38:59 uh? 03:39:11 where's the "go back" button on the browser to life? 03:39:20 Redemption man. 03:39:22 its the only way. 03:39:30 redemption? 03:39:37 perhaps you can bring her with you. 03:39:57 not sure what you mean. 03:39:58 so that you can keep her company where you are at. 03:40:11 she has company where she is at already 03:40:21 oh okay. 03:40:58 Press "back" anyway and get a segfault. 03:41:11 no, not a boyfriend. 03:41:28 she seems incapable of enjoying life, let alone a boyfriend :( 03:41:47 rob_ert: I don't trust the segfault handler. 03:42:07 it might kill her, and that's what I want to avoid. 03:54:46 --- nick: GilbertBSD -> all 03:54:59 --- nick: all -> gilbertbsd 03:55:05 --- part: gilbertbsd left #forth 04:36:50 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 04:37:07 Down to 12 users, wow! CM is coming, maybe we will hit 50-60 users. 04:37:08 Hi :) 04:37:11 Hi! 04:37:26 Well, we're only 11, unless you count the bots ;) 04:37:29 I just woke up, and now it is coffee time, read and get stuff done and of course wait around and chat with chuck the chip man. 04:37:34 Hm, no, 10 04:37:37 LOL 04:37:42 Me no bot, get rid of them bots. 04:37:47 boom bots boom 04:37:51 How you doing? 04:37:56 Shoot the rob_ert, and everything will be fine. 04:37:56 he won't be on for hours yet 04:38:00 Fine... 04:38:02 Hehe 04:38:35 9 hours and counting, 2 PM PDT as I recall. I'll get lunch and hang here for an hour early just in case a cameo happens. 04:38:44 Until then, take care and happy forthin' 04:39:06 10pm GMT, tonight? 04:39:19 Hm, I thouhg 9pm GMT 04:39:23 thought* 04:39:25 ouch 04:39:30 11pm CET 04:39:50 Isn't that 10pm for all frenchies? 04:39:57 Maybe Im'm mistaken... 04:40:13 2 pm PDT is 23:00 CEST 04:46:38 I'm not so sure they got the correct time there 04:48:30 ENTER IP PUSH RSP DATA TO IP NEXT 04:48:36 What does the DATA mean here? 04:48:46 I can't understand ;-/ 04:56:26 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 04:56:35 nm 04:56:35 hey. 04:56:38 Hoi :) 04:57:32 * klooie just read about chuck moore's upcoming visit on c.l.f. 04:57:52 :-) 04:58:14 Just a few hours left 04:58:23 Start biting your finger nails 04:58:27 hehe. 04:58:56 i'm not nervous or intimidated, just interested. :) 04:59:09 I think most of us are. 04:59:33 Got any questions to CM? 05:00:54 not off the top of my head, i read the announcement about a minute ago. 05:01:31 also i'm not that clued in about forth, having read "starting forth" only last week. 05:01:45 Hehe 05:01:50 I'm also a newbie. 05:03:18 it fascinates me how he has been doing his own thing for.. decades. 05:03:39 Coding forth? :) 05:03:43 Oh 05:03:53 * rob_ert should read the whole sentence next time 05:03:59 Yeah :) 05:04:12 developing forth, his own chips, and so on. 05:04:36 i wonder what keeps him going like that, my own experimentation is on and off - at best. 05:04:56 Hehe 05:05:44 anyway, private life calls, it is saturday after all. 05:05:49 bbl. 05:05:55 Okay 05:05:56 Bye :) 05:10:09 --- join: Xuz (~Xuz@bgp01079860bgs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:10:52 Hi 05:11:33 Hello 05:55:54 luke: :) 05:55:54 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:04:29 ppl r comin ppl r goin... 06:04:48 silence b4 the storm? 06:05:07 * davidw is trying to figure out how the interrupt handlers work in ecos 06:05:21 or everybody is busy w preparing questions? ;) 06:07:19 Hehe 06:07:30 Hm 06:07:43 * rob_ert wants some example code with does> and stuff 06:07:49 Wonder if gforth has any 06:11:26 --- quit: Xuz (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:26 --- quit: klooie (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:26 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:27 --- quit: goshawk` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:27 --- quit: Fare (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:27 --- quit: davidw (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:27 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:32 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:32 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:32 --- quit: joa (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:11:48 --- join: Xuz (~Xuz@bgp01079860bgs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-211-39.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-113.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52205.vnet.hu) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: Frac (zxsznzo@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 06:11:48 --- join: joa (~james@59-125-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net) joined #forth 06:12:01 * Xuz is idle Scheming. Shame on him. 06:50:18 --- quit: Xuz ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?") 06:55:12 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 07:22:50 are you guys going to save the interview somewhere? 07:22:57 that would be a Good Idea 07:23:48 ggggggggrrrrrrrrr, HTF do these interrupts work 07:24:08 * klooie has already started logging. 07:24:22 ah, and clog is here. 07:24:45 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82246.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 07:29:40 --- join: joseph (user@ip68-3-237-161.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 07:29:47 Hey 07:29:53 ree? 07:29:54 hey like minded individual 07:30:03 yeah 07:30:13 :) 07:30:20 Didn't know you were a Chuck Moore fan ;) 07:31:34 well, I am his son 07:31:36 Joseph Moore 07:31:42 he doesn't tell anyone about me though 07:31:49 ;) 07:32:13 I though you were the Moore in Moore's law ;) 07:32:23 Bah, all Moores are the same 07:32:48 Anyway, did you come because of the interview? 07:33:21 well, I can't see it today 07:33:24 I'll be selling soap 07:33:29 Hehe 07:33:32 Have fun ;) 07:33:32 so I just came for the ambiance 07:33:39 and openprojects disconnects me every five minutes 07:33:44 Hah 07:33:45 Bad client 07:33:51 bad openprojects 07:33:52 Well, you have clog :) 07:34:01 this is ircii, the only irc client 07:34:02 yeah 07:34:16 not my fault they don't work with the only irc client 07:34:20 Bah 07:34:29 Get irssi, xchat or something 07:34:50 i have no trouble with ircii on opn.. 07:35:22 See? 07:35:30 ree's the bandit :) 07:39:46 ok, then it is my location 07:39:51 location location location 07:40:14 :-) 07:40:32 Out in the arizonian desert? 07:45:42 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 07:46:00 Hello :) 07:46:13 hi 07:50:49 moving soon 07:50:56 later 07:50:58 --- part: joseph left #forth 08:06:04 --- join: Quartus (RQR@CPE0001023f6e4f.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 08:06:05 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:06:35 Hello! 08:06:44 Hi :) 08:08:27 --- join: Forth (~Forth@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:09:07 Hi 08:09:08 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:09:15 Hey :-) 08:09:16 Your bot? 08:09:35 :) 08:09:37 gotta love this channel :) 08:09:39 ya 08:09:45 it dont do nuttin yet tho 08:09:57 * rob_ert wants to understand forth some day. 08:10:08 Where's the lastest version of isforth? 08:10:16 Sleep with a copy of Chuck Moore under your pillow. 08:10:27 http://isforth.clss.net :) 08:10:50 Thanks! 08:10:54 Quartus: hi - you new in here or just a new nick :) 08:10:55 lol, Quartus 08:11:14 Worked for me! :) 08:11:54 ugh why is CLF always dead on the weekend :P 08:12:35 Forth developers get their jobs done during the week. :) 08:13:13 Monday to Friday programmers? 08:13:34 must be :) 08:13:48 quartus they are too POOR to have a connection at home :P 08:14:02 Ah, now I doubt that. 08:14:18 ok - just so i dont miss it - how many hours FROM NOW will chuck be in here 08:14:49 I think 4... 08:15:03 But I'm usually wrong about everything. 08:16:27 lol 08:17:02 we need someone with a CLUE in here 08:17:05 Anyone interested in helping me with this web site can usually find me in #forth on irc.linpeople.org - (wimper wimper :) 08:17:08 were all cluless 08:17:15 I've got enough of HTML, but is that channel good? 08:17:39 eh ? 08:17:56 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-149-35.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 08:18:12 That channel... is it worth joining? 08:18:25 im running my random number generator in a loop counting random numbers till the sequence repeats heh 08:18:31 its been going for 6 hours so far 08:18:54 hi soap 08:18:57 lol 08:19:02 How many numbers/second? 08:19:08 And how big are the numbers? 08:19:12 It's 8:18am in the PST timezone now, so the chat would be just under 6 hours away, I think. 08:19:12 i dunno but i can tell you this much 08:19:14 ALOT 08:19:24 How big? 08:19:30 quartus you have a clue!! heh cool thanx 08:19:37 thenumbers are from 0 to 99 08:19:48 and im only waiting on a repeat of the first 20 08:20:00 so its not realy a valid test of the sequence repeat 08:20:19 brb - gotta go to store 08:20:25 Hmm... so you're waiting for 2 identical 20-number sequences? 08:20:28 OK. bye. 08:24:27 ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Archive/tutorials/intro.4th <-- Hey, I almost think onetom wrote this ;) 08:28:07 Forth sucks! 08:28:17 Not a helpful comment. 08:28:32 Nah 08:31:35 Pleased to discover that Quartus Forth has a full-page review in this month's Handheld Computing. 08:31:42 --- part: wossname left #forth 08:43:24 rob_ert: ;) wow 08:43:41 still what a silence... 08:43:51 r u afraid of eachother guys? 08:43:52 Quartus: Is it written by you? :-) 08:43:56 Hehe 08:43:57 I was away 08:44:41 there e some rarely available persons here 08:44:51 It is indeed. 08:44:55 and u dont exchange ideas w them? 08:45:00 Quartus: Congratulations :-) 08:45:10 Oh -- the review? No. Quartus Forth, yes. :) 08:45:16 Quartus: eg, u 08:45:49 i dont know quartus to much, tho, i plan 2 learn palmos via it 08:45:49 I'm happy to exchange ideas. Right now my only idea involves a light lunch, which probably isn't valuable on the idea market. :) 08:45:51 * rob_ert understands that Quartus feels quite satisfied. 08:46:23 It's a good tool for that, one. 08:46:32 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:46:32 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 08:46:40 sif :-) 08:47:09 Quartus: how about integrating an editor into quartus, eg? 08:47:49 I've thought about it. Editors are big projects, and users are hugely divided over what features should be present in them; my concern is that it would take too many development cycles away from the compiler itself. 08:47:50 rob_ert: CM is a really attractive person... he also makes robots 2 come & listen 2 him :) 08:47:59 ;) 08:48:10 Don't forget clog 08:48:11 sif: 3 5 + 08:48:12 Quartus: 08:48:13 sif: . 08:48:14 And ChanServ :) 08:48:14 Quartus: stack underflow 08:48:20 Hehe 08:48:25 sif: 3 5 + . 08:48:26 Quartus: 8 08:48:33 hehehe 08:49:22 gforth: : a 5 1 do i 0 do ." *" loop cr loop ; a 08:49:23 Quartus: and what is the adviced devel method on a palm? u always restart Q after editing a source file and type "include xxx.f" ? 08:49:26 rob_ert: * 08:49:26 rob_ert: ** 08:49:26 rob_ert: *** 08:49:26 rob_ert: **** 08:49:30 xD 08:50:06 Quartus: its also doesnt have a history :( 08:50:45 onetom: I do tend to develop like that, yes, exiting and re-entering Quartus Forth. There's a memopad editor you can run that pops up over Quartus, if that's preferred. 08:50:47 Quartus: iwonder, wheather ppl use pose 2 devel in? 08:50:52 You're right about the history; that's coming in a new version. 08:51:07 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:51:10 Hey futhin 08:51:13 Quartus: huh :) 08:51:20 What CPU is your forth written for, Quartus? 08:51:30 Some do use POSE; I do myself occasionally. 08:51:33 if it's for a palm, it's coldfire, I assume 08:51:41 It's written for the Dragonball processor -- it's a 68K core. 08:51:49 Not coldfire, but not all that different. 08:51:54 ah, oops 08:51:56 Okay :) 08:52:12 Never done any coding for Motorola CPUs... 08:52:21 * davidw is getting a headache trying to figure out interrupts in ecos 08:52:21 They're simple and fun to write for. 08:52:48 hi all 08:52:49 Quartus: were u refering 2 the builtin memopad previously? 08:52:56 i440r: what did you want to talk to me about? 08:53:12 The pop-up one? No, that's a 3rd party app. But I don't use the pop-up -- I work directly from the MemoPad. 08:53:17 Quartus: or an independent memo editor, with such a popup feature? 08:53:31 The pop-up one edits the MemoPad database. 08:53:36 Quartus: "directly from the MemoPad"? how? 08:54:02 quartus: you are the quartus forth guy? 08:54:09 ... I'm not being sufficiently clear, sorry -- need that light lunch. :) I work in the MemoPad itself, and bounce back and forth between that and Quartus Forth. 08:54:21 futhin: hi! :) 08:54:28 I am -- hi futhin. 08:54:36 futhin: how many questions have u already gathered? 08:54:49 heya onetom, got about 12 questions or so.. 08:55:22 futhin: wow, u were lucky then :) 08:56:16 Without a doubt, IsForth is dedicated to Chuck Moore. 08:56:27 awwww... isn't that cute? 08:57:11 got 9 good questions and 5 regular questions.. 08:58:02 Cool 08:58:06 May we see them? 08:59:05 futhin: i only have this 1 08:59:06 [03:43] In other words, has the development of his various parts been profitable enough for him to continue 08:59:06 his business? 08:59:32 Should we really ask Chuck to discuss the development of his parts? 08:59:45 Especially his "various" parts. :) 08:59:57 :) 09:00:16 quartus: why not? 09:00:30 Such personal questions! :) 09:00:40 Heh 09:00:49 Quartus: we could discover @ least how shy is he ;) 09:01:02 Poor fellow might blush. 09:01:18 like: hey chuck r u also a naturist? 09:01:29 Does he code in the nude? Hehehe. 09:01:36 :) 09:01:38 :))) 09:02:05 That could explain the one-handed keyboard! 09:02:33 ew 09:02:37 heh 09:02:40 hehe. Sorry. 09:02:42 yaaya :) 09:02:48 that would explain the excellent quality of forth 09:02:56 people only do their best when they are happy! :P 09:03:24 True :) 09:04:15 how the f*&*(&(& hell do he interrupts work in this POS 09:04:29 who cares 09:04:34 futhin: will u show the qustions or not? 09:04:34 all coding is suspended for today! :P 09:05:00 we r metacodin 2 day 09:05:05 or virtual coding? 09:05:08 anyway 09:06:06 boooohoooo it just doesn't care about interrupts 09:06:07 Quartus: some "personal question 2 u"... 09:06:25 Sure. I'm not a naturalist. :) 09:06:29 Quartus: what docs would u recommend about palmos, what explain 09:07:09 --- join: Latz (~lac@217.65.99.67) joined #forth 09:07:10 Quartus: the structure of the os, like how apps work 2gather 09:07:22 hi 09:07:25 Quartus: how do the comunicate & the like 09:07:28 Latz: :) 09:07:34 Palm provides free SDK documentation, which you definitely need to have as a reference. Part of those docs also explain the event-handling structure, how GUI objects work, etc. That's a good place to start. 09:07:42 --- join: tomka (~tomka@kvizpart.hu) joined #forth 09:07:44 Hi Latz 09:07:54 And hi there, tomka 09:07:56 Having read those, you will know what gaps you want to fill, and can look intelligently at some of the other books available. 09:07:58 hi 09:08:03 hi rob_ert 09:08:11 hi tomka 09:08:27 hi Latz 09:08:31 ho rob_ert 09:08:35 hu all 09:08:48 Quartus: u mean theres no theoretical, concise, overall explanation about the fundamental structure of the os? 09:08:56 i was predicting only 15 ppl are going to show up, but at this rate, it's going to be 25 :) 09:09:48 onetom: Yes, more than one. Palm provides one, in their docs; other books approach it from different angles and to different depths. 09:11:03 Quartus: do i have 2 be the member of their developers project 2 b able 2 access these boks? 09:11:06 books 09:11:19 onetom: No, they're freely downloadable from http://www.palmos.com 09:12:05 Quartus: specifically im interested in the multitasking capabilities of the os 09:12:47 That's an easy question: it has none. Or more accurately, it supports (as I recall) 5 threads, all of which are used by the OS, with no hope of expansion. You can multitask in Quartus Forth itself, though -- round-robin scheduling. That's available. 09:12:51 Quartus: i met some programs what hook themselves bg so they r available from inside any app 09:13:21 Quartus: that would have been my next question :) 09:13:24 Yes, those are known as HackMaster modules. I've written some. They link into system functions and enhance the operation of the device. 09:13:43 Quartus: so Q supports only cooperative multitaskin, right? 09:14:27 Right. That extension is actually user-written, available at the Quartus Forth Wiki. I'm pleased at how successful the Wiki is; it's a valuable adjunct to the existing discussion forum. 09:17:20 Quartus: what wiki sw do u use? 09:18:25 The wiki itself is user-run also -- it's using TWiki. 09:18:43 Quartus: is it a zope thing, then? 09:19:06 Quartus: what about implementing a 'preemtive' kernel? 09:19:53 Here's further information about TWiki -- http://sleepless-night.com/cgi-bin/twiki/view/TWiki/WebHome 09:20:01 dammit...shower time 09:20:03 Quartus: id like 2 create 1 so i can port my app 2 the palm 09:20:06 fucking interrupt handler 09:20:50 Onetom: Should be possible. I haven't explored it. The PalmOS is non-reentrant, which makes multitasking more of a bother than it might otherwise be. 09:21:32 davidw: you don't need to be so negative.. think fluffy thoughts :P 09:21:35 Quartus: but the only thing u have 2 do is 2 protect the syscalls 09:21:48 Quartus: it will do 4 the very 1st time 09:22:16 fluffy thoughts lol 09:22:19 futhin your GAY! 09:22:20 Quartus: anyway, 1 wont wanna create multiply threads gui.. 09:22:20 onetom: true. If you come up with something useful, I'd love to see it. :) 09:22:21 lol 09:22:31 im not here - i just wanted to know if chipchuck was here yet or not :) 09:22:45 oh my god this channel is ROCKIN! 09:22:46 i440r: you wanted to say something to me last night ? 09:22:47 bbl 09:22:48 bizzee 09:23:14 Quartus: but rather -say- a bg serial interface w several bg communication threads and 1 fg gui thread 09:23:52 The PalmOS handles serial communications in a thread already, so that might suit your needs. It buffers incoming data. 09:23:53 Quartus: what also can serve an interactive terminal 2 the user 09:24:34 Quartus: hey, but what if i wanna route the incoming data 2 various queues? 09:25:10 You could use multitasking for that, cooperative or otherwise -- or just handle it in the event loop. Most of the time the app will be waiting for user input anyway. 09:25:16 Quartus: and those queues can b processed by other threads in different priorities 09:26:02 That's fancy stuff indeed. No reason it can't be done, but I'm curious as to why you'd want to do anything that complex. 09:26:07 Quartus: mine would poll other devices through a serial line by default 09:27:07 --- join: Xianze (~xianze@h117n2fls34o834.telia.com) joined #forth 09:27:15 You may find you run into the other device limitations -- the serial port uses the battery agressively, for instance. 09:27:17 helllo 09:27:24 welcome xianze :) 09:27:32 Heh 09:27:45 Start coding forth, Xianze 09:27:54 VB has no future ;) 09:27:55 Quartus: well... i plan 2 implement preemtive prototype kernels in various languages what is also undersandable by other ppl, like pascal, python, awk, bash and even in FORTH itself! 09:27:56 people coming to the channel who aren't forthers? :) 09:28:03 Hehe 09:28:10 I mentioned the channel in another channel 09:28:19 onetom: Sounds like a project unto itself :) 09:29:20 Quartus: yeaaah. imagine an endlessly embedded forth series running on top of eachother ;) 09:29:34 onetom: I picture in my mind an app running very, very slowly. :) 09:30:03 Quartus: its not the point. 09:30:13 hehehe. Well, it's 'a' point :) 09:30:18 Quartus: but u can experiment w various kernels safely 09:30:23 --- quit: Latz ("changing servers") 09:30:24 --- join: lac (~lac@ingatlanok.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #forth 09:30:41 Indeed. 09:30:44 --- quit: lac (Client Quit) 09:33:01 --- join: lac (~lac@ingatlanok.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #forth 09:33:03 hi lac 09:33:07 don't run away! :P 09:33:13 hi 09:33:51 i wonder how many forthers are going to stick around on this channel after the chuck moore event :) 09:33:59 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 09:34:08 good morning speuler :) 09:34:35 I hope to for a bit. Am I right in the timing? Is it 4.5 hours away? 09:35:15 yes 09:35:16 that is correct 09:35:18 Quartus: roughly, yes ithink 09:35:22 4.5 hours from now 09:35:23 Thanks. 09:35:41 Quartus: its more simple 2 write independent task 09:35:54 onetom: get gforth to display a countdown :P 09:36:02 4.5 hours and counting down.. 09:36:55 onetom: Can be. I'd likely be inclined to fake it, or use the cooperative multitasking, but of course anything is possible with software. 09:37:01 Quartus: and leave the sync & comm stuff up 2 the env the threads r running the 09:37:15 Quartus: scheduling 09:37:38 Remember too that the processor on the Palm isn't all that fast; that may be a factor. 09:38:03 it's faster than my hp48g calculator though? 09:38:12 hp48g calculator uses 8mhz saturn chip 09:38:16 s/chip/cpu 09:38:21 Somewhat faster. :) 09:38:22 blazing fast! :P 09:38:31 you can do lots on it! 09:38:41 Quartus: i dont need fast execution but a well structured program :) 09:38:49 there's doom for it.. and dune 2! (clones of course) :) 09:38:54 Well, you need to be fast enough not to lose the incoming serial data. 09:39:15 dune 2 = first real-time strategy game ever.. father of warcraft & starcraft & all the others 09:41:19 On a calculator, eh? 09:41:42 yup 09:41:49 lots of games for the hp48g calc :) 09:41:52 and it has RPN 09:41:53 Proving once again that engineers are crazy. :) 09:42:00 it has a stack 09:42:08 it's a beautiful thing :) 09:42:17 i can calculate stuff much much faster on it than a regular calc 09:42:21 And, sadly, HP is now out of the business -- is that right? I seem to recall reading about it. 09:42:33 easy to leave results on the stack and come back to it 09:42:35 yeah 09:42:40 i heard something like that too 09:42:52 i think there might be a revival effort going on, hopefully that is successful 09:44:06 i'm going to hack my hp48g calc someday 09:44:10 put in 8 megs of ram 09:44:16 it currently has 32k 09:44:33 4 to 8 megs of ram.. mmmmmm.. will give me room to store many things on it :) 09:44:43 then i might adapt a keyboard to it 09:44:46 like get a palm keyboard 09:44:56 and fix it up to attach to the hp 09:45:54 then the next step is ripping out the color lcd of the gameboy or the sega one.... could get messy quickly :) 09:46:16 I can see it now, parts everywhere. :) 09:46:18 and attaching the color screen to the hp :P 09:46:38 a souped up lean mean machine 09:47:44 well well, gotta spend the next 3 hours doing some housework 09:47:51 so afk for now 09:48:00 cya 09:53:49 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:58:39 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 09:58:57 Hi' 09:59:13 hi\ 10:03:32 sif: :noname 10 0 do i . loop ; execute 10:03:33 Quartus: Word not found: :noname 10:03:50 sif: : t 10 0 do i . loop ; t 10:03:51 Quartus: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10:04:12 So *that's* the order. :) 10:06:13 Here's the definition of the kirby dance in forth :) : face1 ." (>'.')>" ; : face2 ." (v'.'v)" ; : face3 ." <('.'<)" ; : face4 ." (^'.'^)" ; : kirby do face1 face2 face3 face4 cr loop ; 10:06:40 sif: : face1 ." (>'.')>" ; : face2 ." (v'.'v)" ; : face3 ." <('.'<)" ; : face4 ." (^'.'^)" ; : kirby do face1 face2 face3 face4 cr loop ; kirby 10:06:42 Quartus: stack underflow 10:06:46 wow 10:06:51 where is everyione coming from :) 10:06:53 bah 10:07:03 you need the number of times 10:07:06 now why cant all you people be in here ALL the time :) 10:07:10 sif: : face1 ." (>'.')>" ; : face2 ." (v'.'v)" ; : face3 ." <('.'<)" ; : face4 ." (^'.'^)" ; : kirby do face1 face2 face3 face4 cr loop ; 1 kirby 10:07:12 Quartus: stack underflow 10:07:16 gforth: : face1 ." (>'.')>" ; : face2 ." (v'.'v)" ; : face3 ." <('.'<)" ; : face4 ." (^'.'^)" ; : kirby do face1 face2 face3 face4 cr loop ; 5 0 kirby 10:07:19 sif: : face1 ." (>'.')>" ; : face2 ." (v'.'v)" ; : face3 ." <('.'<)" ; : face4 ." (^'.'^)" ; : kirby do face1 face2 face3 face4 cr loop ; 1 0 kirby 10:07:20 rob_ert: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:21 Quartus: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:21 rob_ert: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:21 rob_ert: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:21 rob_ert: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:21 rob_ert: (>'.')>(v'.'v)<('.'<)(^'.'^) 10:07:25 Hah 10:07:30 cycling for ops 10:07:32 --- part: I440r left #forth 10:07:32 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:07:40 * rob_ert .oO(oops) 10:07:47 erm guess not try again heh 10:07:54 --- part: I440r left #forth 10:07:54 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:07:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 10:07:57 :P 10:08:14 No more playing with gforth, I suppose? :) 10:08:46 erm whers FORTH! 10:08:53 oh he is in here still heh 10:08:54 phew 10:09:19 :) 10:10:04 er... I need the gforth words for selecting position on the screen to output to 10:10:06 Anyone? =) 10:10:33 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login28.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 10:10:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 10:10:59 Hi :) 10:11:18 hey 10:11:23 Hm, nobody knows those words? 10:11:38 is at-xy supporred? 10:11:55 Checking... 10:12:01 i like just 'xy' myself 10:12:09 or 'at' :) 10:12:15 tcn!! 10:12:22 yo dood isforth supports vocabularies now! 10:12:27 sweet! 10:12:34 check out the latest sources at isforth.clss.net 10:12:37 1.05b 10:12:44 Thanks Quartus :-) 10:12:55 jp 10:12:59 er, np 10:13:09 now wheres TBW ??? 10:13:13 i emailed him 10:13:32 he is gona be RALY pissed with himself :) 10:13:45 i440r: hehe.. you cleaned it up this time :) 10:13:56 cleaned what up ? lol 10:14:03 im too lazy to clean things up :P 10:14:04 70k vs. 150k 10:14:07 oh 10:14:10 hello 10:14:13 i wondering 10:14:15 i musta had the executable in the tgz last time 10:14:22 what is forth? 10:14:29 forth is a programming language 10:14:34 Hmm... how can I do "switch/case" statements in forth? 10:14:41 case: 10:14:49 some-value opt run-this-word 10:14:56 some-value opt run-this-word 10:15:00 ;case 10:15:04 :-) thanks 10:15:09 what is good with forth? 10:15:12 Can I have more than one word? 10:15:13 thers no default condition but im thinking i need to add it 10:15:18 In the run-this-word field 10:15:23 xianze: it looks like this: : f ( x -- y ) 5 * 2 + ; 5 f . 10:15:23 xin you name the application forth can do it 10:15:34 its usually used in embedded applications 10:15:47 because of its speed of execution and small size 10:15:53 RPN notation, with an explicit stack 10:16:24 '.' means "print number on top of stack" 10:16:47 how many hours from now till chuck gets here ? 10:17:03 : fib 0 1 rot 1 do tuck + loop ; 10:17:17 40 fib calculates the 40th fib in the blink of an eye 10:17:24 :-) 10:17:43 i cant stay here atm - but i REALY dont wanna miss chuck - anyone got an exact ETA ? 10:17:53 an exact estimate lol 10:18:01 I440r: case: doesn't work in gforth :-/ 10:18:09 ;) 10:18:17 I _think_ 2 hours 10:18:26 Assuming the topic is incorrect 10:18:38 rob case: is an isforth words 10:18:40 I say 3 hours 10:18:40 word 10:18:50 look in forthsrc/case.f 10:18:57 its MY version of the case statement 10:19:00 theres no endof 10:19:01 you cant do 10:19:03 Ah, OK 10:19:10 case 1 of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah endof 10:19:18 you HAVE to factor the cases out 10:19:20 case: 10:19:25 Okay :) 10:19:27 Well, I'll do some cheap hack 10:19:28 1 opt run-foo 10:19:29 instead 10:19:33 2 opt run-bar 10:19:43 ;case 10:19:44 What are the advantages of forth? 10:19:48 Hahaha 10:19:53 xin speed of development 10:19:56 speed of executoin 10:19:58 He answered to that like 5 minutes ago 10:20:00 smal executable size 10:20:21 xin do you code at all ? 10:20:23 c? asm ? 10:20:59 in the log someone said VB :) 10:21:10 aha. 10:21:23 --- quit: Xianze () 10:21:27 well im out mowing the grass rite now - its only 6 acres with a push mower :P 10:21:28 well.. forth involves much less typing than VB 10:21:30 back in 2 hours 10:21:36 tcn he left :) 10:21:45 yeah i know 10:21:53 you didnt make him feel welcome 10:22:03 EVERYONE is welcome inhere - even vb coders:) 10:22:04 bbl 10:22:05 gotta go work 10:22:10 Bye :) 10:22:54 au revoir :P 10:25:54 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@max2-117.dacor.net) joined #forth 10:26:01 Hi 10:26:03 Bye all :) 10:26:03 when is CM coming? 10:26:07 I'll be back before CM comes 10:26:39 5:00 eastern 10:27:06 thats in 4 hrs 10:28:33 are any of you in the midwest? 10:28:56 that's only 2.5 hrs 10:29:11 3.5 10:29:11 tcn: are you in the midwest? 10:29:24 no i'm in the east 10:29:32 ny? 10:30:47 ma, now 10:34:10 okay that should do the trick 10:34:13 thanks 10:34:34 who is forth? 10:34:38 Forth: usage 10:35:21 forth is not a bot I gather. 10:35:23 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 10:38:45 --- join: kc5tja (kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 10:43:32 hey Sam.. i think everyone went to do other things in the 3 hours before Chuck arrives :) 10:46:07 3.15 hours to go 10:46:45 yes, i'm busy for 2 hours 10:47:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 10:47:54 cool thats what i needed to know c:) 10:48:18 lol my random numbrer sequence tester is stull running hehe 10:48:28 started it at about 0230 this morning :P 10:48:56 gilbert forth IS a bot 10:49:08 is isforth running a sockets/irc-bot extension 10:49:17 im writing the bot to develop the sockets code for isforth 10:50:29 sockets code uses syscalls. i have been reverse engineering libc to discover how to make the varios syscalls correctly and how the structures are formatted 10:50:56 i need to work on making isforth daemonable 10:51:25 back 10:51:27 heh 10:51:30 which would just be a simple fork 10:51:36 I lost my network connection here. 10:51:47 tcn btw you want to see the sockets code ? 10:51:52 its NOT being released as GPL 10:52:00 im doing that part as commercial i think 10:52:20 i MIGHT release it for non commercial use when its ready for release 10:52:22 maybe 10:53:17 is it that difficult to do sockets? 10:54:20 Yes, because sockets uses a lot of structure manipulation for its activity. Think is, the structures are necessarily system dependent. 10:55:13 The sockaddr structure describing IPv4, IPv6, and AX.25, for example, are totally different; what's worse, the structure layout for IPv4 may be different across platforms (e.g., the binary structure layout for IP under Linux does not need to be the same as under BSD) 10:56:41 I do remember what a pain in the ass ioctl/fcntl structures are in Forth.. 10:57:14 tcn it is and it isnt ill send you my code - its actually quite EASY once you discover how to pass the parameters for various syscalls 10:57:15 etc 10:57:24 THATS the part that takes the hard work heh 10:57:28 allright.. you could /dcc it 10:57:35 lets see 10:58:18 u see the dcc ? 10:58:30 i should write a translator for C structures & headers 10:58:37 no 10:58:49 Wow ... this is unheard of. I actually have 0 e-mail messages waiting for me. ! 10:58:56 ok, got it 10:59:14 im not going to be supporting EVERY SINGLE syscall and structure in the c header files 10:59:30 im going to support the USEFULL once - leave all that bullshit bloat for the c coders :P 10:59:36 you got the sockets.f file ? 10:59:40 the dcc hasnt moved at my end 10:59:48 it still shows "waiting" 11:00:09 I'll br right back -- lunch 11:00:10 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 11:00:12 i440r: will your bot be ready for chuck? :) 11:00:13 resend it. 11:00:54 not useable in the way gforth and sif are 11:01:20 offering sockets.f to tcn 11:02:20 oh well, just email it.. it's not working 11:02:22 damned ipmasq :P 11:02:35 will do :) 11:02:40 oh is that the problem, ipmasq? 11:02:42 ill send the bot as it is so far too 11:02:45 yea lol 11:03:04 i never got around to trying that.. so it sucks, eh? 11:03:11 heh 11:03:26 it is a good firewall mechanism but its a pain in the ass sometimes :) 11:03:32 its like NAT but different :) 11:05:22 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:06:25 erm hang on 11:06:27 --- quit: I440r_ (Client Quit) 11:06:51 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust174.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:06:57 ack my dcc :) 11:07:24 tcn wake up :P 11:07:41 ok 11:07:53 got it 11:07:53 --- quit: I440r_ (Client Quit) 11:08:24 its only a START on the sockets code - theres not much there 11:08:33 btw i HALF fixed the bsd include 11:08:36 but its still b0rked :( 11:08:40 it realy needs you 11:09:02 one of these days 11:10:42 dammit :P 11:10:47 lazee bastard :P 11:11:05 (says me who shud be out finishing mowing the lawn :) 11:11:24 i was out working earlier :) 11:12:39 lol 11:13:05 --- join: geakazoid (JB@adsl-63-206-92-218.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:13:12 geek! 11:13:39 im wondering if i should tear down my "limit 83" joke channel limit heh 11:13:48 why? 11:13:58 the channel is getting crowded ? heh 11:13:58 lol 11:14:06 it's going to be a long time 11:14:08 it might prevent more ppl joining :) 11:14:09 before we hit 83 11:14:10 lies 11:14:11 heh 11:14:16 lol 11:14:23 neway im gona go out and finish the lawn 11:14:26 brb 11:14:30 1440r just one in a million 11:14:38 :) 11:14:40 only if we get a sudden influx of porno bots who advertise "forth pr0n at http://www.forthpron.com come to it!! free1!!" 11:14:45 did I miss Chuck Moore? 11:15:01 geak: no, he's going to be here in 2 hours and 45 minutes 11:15:09 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 11:15:20 --- quit: herkamire (Client Quit) 11:18:37 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 11:19:40 talking about bots, are there any good forth bots? 11:19:46 heh 11:20:16 ask i440r.. i'll be back in a few hours maybe 11:20:19 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 11:22:13 I440r are there any forth bot samples one could use for producitivity like research? 11:23:09 What kind of forth bots? 11:23:13 i440r is completing his chores. 11:23:47 rob_ert samples for learning how to program one for one's own research like searching for key words 11:24:54 Hmm.. ok... 11:26:40 Hmm...in my Forth, I think I will use split wordlists; one for interpretter, one for compiler. 11:27:01 It totally breaks away from ANSI, but the resulting code is much simpler. 11:27:24 geek my forth bot is very simple atm - its not TRUELY parsing any messages other than numerics 11:27:40 the sockets code can create named IP's but cant do nslookup yet 11:27:42 Hmmm... isforth segfaulted 11:27:57 you can say ip: foo_server.com 127.0.0.1. 11:27:59 : zero ." zero" ; : one ." one" ; 11:28:06 I440r is your bot for networking? 11:28:16 : check case: 0 opt zero 1 opt one ;case ; 11:28:19 0 check cr 11:28:23 That segfaulted 11:28:30 Why? :-/ 11:28:33 the bot is to help develop the sockets code 11:28:33 make sure i can connect etc 11:28:33 send and recieve 11:28:34 its all done with smoke and mirrors 11:28:36 erm i mean syscalls :) 11:29:05 let me try uit 11:29:06 it 11:29:10 I440r for linux? 11:29:18 yes 11:29:31 and if tcn gets off his lazy ass it shud work in bsd too :P 11:29:41 Heheh 11:29:56 I440r: Where can one find the isforth sources/binaries? 11:30:25 0 check gives ." zero" here 11:30:33 the code works perfectly here 11:30:41 isforth.clss.net has the latest release 11:30:47 but that doesnt include the sockets code or the bot 11:31:06 sockets code is semi top secreet yet :) 11:31:21 Hmm 11:31:21 rob what os are you running on? 11:31:24 linux ? 11:31:25 I440r is isforth for linux/*nix only? 11:31:31 Debian GNU/Linux ;) 11:31:39 right now its linux/x86 only 11:31:46 erm thats what im running 11:31:49 what processor ? 11:31:57 P200MMX 11:32:06 hrm that SHUD work 11:32:08 do this 11:32:10 nasm 0.98.30 11:32:11 1 2 swap . . 11:32:19 Okay 11:32:41 Outputs 1 2 11:33:19 eh? 11:33:25 nm 11:33:29 <-- blind 11:33:34 I440R what is the difference between isforth and gforth? 11:33:42 isforth is better :P 11:33:47 is coded in asm too 11:34:08 gforth is bigger! 11:34:13 and is going to be a "real" forth 11:34:17 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-23.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 11:34:19 it'll be able to metacompile 11:34:21 (i.e. not as good as isforth *g*) 11:34:29 futhin do you mean isforth is going to be a real forth? 11:34:35 yes 11:34:46 it'll be able to metacompile, and it's coded in asm 11:34:55 it's "pure" :) 11:34:59 no C in it.. 11:35:05 rob_ert I had heard at the svfig that some forth programmers had difficulty with gforth when they are not C literate 11:35:06 No Pascal either? 11:35:29 ? 11:35:38 "C literate"? 11:35:45 rob_ert C programmer 11:36:06 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 11:36:10 Oh 11:36:11 geakazoid: might be a little true.. with gforth you need to interface with the libraries if you want to do sockets and that stuff 11:36:14 bigger != bettet 11:36:16 --- join: jason_ (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 11:36:22 I440r: Like I said ;) 11:36:25 SMALLER == better :) 11:36:28 --- quit: jason_ (Client Quit) 11:36:36 fly b heh 11:36:37 simple == goo 11:36:38 d 11:36:40 I440r rob_ert does isforth load from the syscall layer of *nix? 11:36:49 Wow...nasm 0.97 really doesn't like your sources... ;D 11:36:52 Don't ask me anything, heh 11:36:54 lol 11:36:54 * kc5tja goes to find nasm 0.98 11:36:58 Who uses 0.97 nowadays? 11:37:02 isforth doesnt do ANYTHIGN without syscalls 11:37:13 0.98.30 was the latest when I checked 11:37:30 I440r is that true for gforth? 11:37:40 no 11:37:44 gforth uses libc 11:37:53 isforth doesnt use ANY external libs 11:37:56 its all self contained 11:38:06 I440r that is what I thought from what was presented at the SVFIG last year 11:38:08 gforth is written largely in C. 11:38:24 and C is an abomination according to some ppl ;) 11:38:32 /me thinks so 11:38:35 I440r so, what about shell programming in isForth; do you need it? 11:38:41 therefore gforth is an abomination & isforth is not :P 11:38:45 however, the use of C in gforth is as a portable assembler. The C code doesn't look *anything* like normal C code. 11:39:00 Hehe 11:39:13 it looks like token threaded forth to me - tho i wouldnt swear to it 11:39:19 i doont mess with gforth at all 11:39:55 gforth is configurable to use direct or indirect threading. 11:40:01 I does not do token threaded. 11:40:03 It 11:40:08 oh yea i think i remember that in nthe readme 11:40:15 some platforms dont support direct threading tho 11:40:31 Well, with any kind of performance. That's why it's configurable. 11:40:47 isforth is direct threaded only 11:40:50 I440r wasn't someone working on a minimal linux with a forth that booted on a disk? 11:40:55 i even removed the option for jmp next 11:41:05 the only options are inline next direct threaded 11:41:09 DEC Alpha's, for example, *suck* at direct threaded, while PowerPCs are actually faster at direct threading. x86 couldn't really care less; indirect threading adds a cycle or two for the extra indirection. 11:41:11 yes 11:41:23 i have that here but ive never tested it 11:41:27 its pmode too 11:41:35 Direct threading for x86 is the only way to go. It's the simplest, cleanest, fastest way if you prefer threading. 11:41:58 and its smaller too 11:42:06 3 bytes instead of 5 bytes 11:42:07 I440r yes, you mean there is a minimal bootable forth for linux? 11:42:15 oh 11:42:17 4 bytes you mean. 11:42:19 32-bit. :) 11:42:20 no its nit FOR linux 11:42:24 no. 5 bytes 11:42:25 kc5tja: what if i don't prefer threading? :P 11:42:29 1 byte for the call opcode 11:42:32 4 bytes for the address 11:42:36 I440r oh, then what is it for? 11:42:37 I440r: That's not direct threaded -- that's subroutine threading. 11:42:44 its stand alone i believe 11:42:48 no 11:42:56 I440r you don't mean enth or eforth? 11:43:03 isforth uses call instructions to leave the body field address on the stack 11:43:03 Hmm 11:43:13 some_variable 11:43:15 call dovariable 11:43:16 How can you do multi-threading with direct threading? 11:43:19 dd some_value 11:43:25 dovariable: 11:43:28 I440r: OK, but that's independent of threading. We're talking about threading mechanism here, not body address acquisition. :) 11:43:29 And...which model does isforth use? 11:43:30 xchg ebx,[esp] 11:44:05 the point was the SIZE of jmp next against inline next 11:44:24 lodsd jmp eax is 3 bytes 11:44:30 jmp _next 11:44:32 is 5 bytes 11:44:54 we could keep the addess of _next cached in a reg of corse :) 11:45:03 but thats being silly on a register starved x86 11:45:07 I440r: That wasn't what I was talking about *at all*. 11:45:21 That is also threading mechanism independent (except for subroutine threading). 11:45:27 its what i was talking about :) 11:45:44 When I said a thread is 4 bytes, I mean the address compiled into the definition is 4 bytes. 11:45:50 yes 11:45:54 i440r loves to talk about isforth :) 11:46:02 what else is there futhin ? :) 11:46:07 FS/Forth of course! :D 11:46:15 kc5tja lol 11:46:18 It's funny that you based isForth on FPC, and I'm basing FS/Forth on Pygmy... ;D 11:46:43 i played with pygmy, but some things seemed pretty weird about it.. 11:46:46 pygmy is a good forth - but there are some things i dont like about it - 11:46:47 heh 11:47:04 tho - thers ALOT i hate about fpc 11:47:04 in fact, I've decided to re-write FS/Forth 1.x (which I've renamed System 1 Release 3, since it's my 3rd 16-bit x86 Forth). 11:47:10 its only LOOSLY based on it 11:47:10 I440r: That's why I'm writing my own. :D 11:47:29 kc are you using the "immediate" vocabulary idea or are you having immediate words ? 11:47:41 FS/Forth System 1 is 16-bit, and aimed for DOS. I'm intending system 2 to be 32-bit and aimed for both Linux and native environments. 11:48:01 kc5tja ok, so it will run on Dos & Linux? 11:48:01 I was considering using immediate words, but they really introduce a lot of problems with state-smartness. 11:48:06 --- part: lac left #forth 11:48:31 not realy :) 11:48:31 geakazoid: System 1 is 16-bit, system 2 is 32-bit. I'll try to make them as source compatible with each other as I can, but I cannot guarantee compatibility between the two systems. 11:48:53 kc5tja would they run on say a dos clone such as FreeDos? 11:49:08 I440r: Well, what is ' .S mean? Does it refer to the interpretted semantics, or the compiled semantics? 11:49:11 is he almost here yet ? 11:49:23 er .s where ? 11:49:38 .s does non destructive stack display :P 11:49:39 I440r I don't think it's been 2 hrs 11:49:41 geakazoid: System 1 definately will, yes. It will use DOS only for file I/O and to exit back to DOS. Everything else is either BIOS call or direct hardware access. 11:50:03 s/.s/S"/ 11:50:09 kc5tja ok, how about ReactOS an NT clone for your System 2? 11:50:09 sorry -- I have three things going at once. :) 11:51:05 kc5tja you need more windows on your screen then 11:51:14 er s" will NOT be defined in isforth 11:51:15 geakazoid: It's conceivable that I could get it to run under Windows NT; it would require a C wrapper to do it, though (e.g., x86 assembly calling C routines to perform I/O and system calls), because I refuse to touch low-level NT APIs in assembly. Much as I love assembly, MS ruined it for everyone with their crack-head call conventions. :) 11:51:28 I440r: I am just giving an example of where ambiguity arises. 11:51:31 ." and abort" are compiling words that compile (.") and (abort") 11:51:41 its not ambiguous 11:51:53 neither is being or if or any of the branching words 11:51:58 kc5tja the ReactOS project is an NT clone 11:52:08 they are immediate compiling words that compile the branch and loop constructs 11:52:16 I440r: My convention is that something like S" is state-smart, a la this: : S" STATE @ IF POSTPONE {S"} ELSE (S") THEN ; IMMEDIATE 11:52:20 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 11:52:23 For *all* such word.s. 11:52:35 kc5tja it has seemed to me that a adding forth to the clone would be a good thing just like adding forth to linux 11:52:38 This way, you always know that {xxx} is a compiling word for xxx, and (xxx) is an interpret-mode equivalent. 11:53:09 kc5 making them state smart makes it possible to have NO "compile only" words i guess 11:53:18 geakazoid: Well, it's not that I don't want to support NT; it's just that, "Do I have the time?" Each platform has its own characteristics and subtleties that consumes my time and effort to "officially" support. 11:53:22 hello asau, welcome to #forth :) 11:53:33 Hi ASau 11:53:44 wow all these people and thers only THREE bots + chanserv :) 11:53:47 Hello 11:53:48 The channel population has doubled :) 11:53:59 kc5tja I agree, but I am wondering if some forthers could devote some time to some DOS/Windows clone projects 11:54:19 FreeDOS :-) 11:54:30 Wonder if it comes with any forth now... 11:54:37 geakazoid: Well, System 2 is designed to be "portable" - that is, I want it to run natively as its own OS, or under Linux, so supporting NT shouldn't be that terribly difficult. Just the selection of system calls will be different. 11:54:57 rob_ert yes, well, you know some people have Computer Farms like me and it would be nice to re-use the old PCs 11:55:05 I440r: At any rate, I'm seriously considering using separate interpret and compiler vocabularies at this time. I haven't committed myself to the decision yet, but it's looking that way. 11:55:10 i4440r: 4 bots (counting clog) and chanserv 11:55:13 geakazoid: :) 11:55:22 20 people here so far! 11:55:25 geakazoid: I haven't got any room for all my old computers :-/ 11:55:30 expecting 25 people or more! :D 11:55:33 kc5 i have a compiler vocabulary - the point being to eventuyally discard the entire vocabulary on turnkey 11:55:46 creating words are deadwood on turnkey 11:55:48 cruft 11:56:29 rob_ert A Unix Guy who was working with Chuck Moore gave a presentation at the AVFIG last year about a project he and Chuck were working on, it seemed like they were stringing processors up to do some co-processing between CPUs 11:56:33 I440r: That makes a lot of sense, and lends even more rationale to my adopting split vocabularies. ;D cmForth really is a nice dialect of Forth; it's a shame ANSI virtually enforced the use of IMMEDIATE and its related issues. 11:57:20 --- join: Latz (~lac@217.65.99.67) joined #forth 11:57:20 kc isforths forget is going to be vocabulary specific too 11:57:23 hi latz 11:57:28 geakazoid: I have about 7 65816 CPUs that would be neat if I could gang them together. 65816s are 16-bit 6502s. :) 11:57:36 I440r: hi 11:57:38 I440r: Hmm...now that is a concept I hadn't considered. 11:57:41 all vocabs will compile into their own section 11:57:54 Howeer, I am going to introduce symbol scoping instead of headerless words. 11:58:01 Consider the following code: 11:58:08 BEGIN-SCOPE 11:58:12 give say 64k per vocabulary, have each vocabs headers at the top of the section and code at the base 11:58:16 : test ." Hello world" ; 11:58:18 kc5tja the Unix Guy (sorry don't know his name) was working on a project to use his knowledge of Unix with Colorforth 11:58:21 test Hello world ok 11:58:24 BEGIN-SCOPE 11:58:34 : test ." Goodbye, cruel world" ; 11:58:38 test Goodbye, cruel world ok 11:58:41 END-SCOPE 11:58:45 test Hello world 11:58:46 END-SCOPE 11:58:54 test test not found! 11:58:56 wow 11:59:16 does that concept have a VALID use? - or is it just feature-itis 11:59:20 I'll introduce words like PUBLIC and GLOBAL to adjust the visibility of words of course. 11:59:22 it LOOKS interesting ! 11:59:36 kc5tja I wonder if something like a bot. like I440r uses, could be used to network CPU? 11:59:49 Well, I thought of it while figuring out how to keep the dictionary header space small enough on a C64 Forth I was thinking of writing. 12:00:03 :) 12:00:10 6502 rox :) 12:00:23 i learned 6502 in 2 weeks by hand reverse engineering a program 12:00:24 geakazoid: you understand the bot is an irc bot? 12:00:36 with the aid of "rodnay zakks programming the 6502" 12:00:41 then i baught a c64 :) 12:00:56 all bots we mention are irc bots.. not agents or whatever.. 12:01:05 I was thinking of using the Forth environment as the native "host OS" if you will, and I needed a more general purpose way of handling symbol visibility. It came up in trying to resolve device driver issues. 12:01:23 futhin I did not know what he was doing with it, but the idea of checking the ports is what I was thinking about 12:01:54 kc5tja if I have red correctly , Chuck has been focused on being able to use co-processes between CPUs 12:01:56 geakazoid: Well, there would need to be some inter-CPU communication, for sure. I do not see the need for a dedicated daemon or "bot" to handle that task. 12:02:21 kc5tja well, what would the inter-CPU communication be? 12:02:42 like inter process but diff :) 12:03:05 geakazoid: Probably some form of shared memory between all the CPUs, and some signalling mechanism that causes the CPU to be interrupted. 12:03:42 dual port ram :) 12:03:55 kc5tja something like that, I am sure Chuck Moore has some good answers 12:03:58 I was going to write directly to DRAM actually. 12:04:32 --- join: AlephNull (aleph@h24-65-137-230.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 12:04:34 geakazoid: Well, I'm not doing it for commercial gain, and I'm not particularly concerned with performance; only hardware and software complexity. 12:04:58 geakazoid: That being said, I'm going to use a system that takes advantage of the 65816's native abilities. 12:05:41 kc5tja well, not knowing the 65816, what are the native abilities? 12:06:18 geakazoid: Single cycle memory access times, and load/store instructions that concurrently set the CPU's flags. 12:06:29 So, I can implement a semaphore relatively easy. 12:06:41 1$: LDA SEMAPHORE 12:06:48 BMI 1$ 12:06:59 STX SEMAPHORE 12:07:06 (where X already has bit 7 set) 12:08:04 i remember the opcode for the lda there - $ad - but i cant remember the reast heh man im gettin old - i used to knnow EVERY opcode by heart! 12:08:20 :) 12:08:36 sif: 1 2 + . 12:08:36 ive not touched 6502 in almost 20 years 12:08:38 futhin: 3 12:09:13 futhin you were too lame to get the correct answer without the bot ???? :) 12:09:25 no, just demonstrating it to a friend 12:09:28 Alternatively, and probably even simpler, is to just assign each CPU a fixed region of memory (e.g., each CPU gets its own zero-page memory space, for example), and then just write to a register with a bit saying, "I put data here." It's up to the other CPUs to fetch that data and act accordingly. 12:09:55 you HAVE friends ??? (lol) 12:10:00 heheh 12:10:05 i've got tons :P 12:10:41 --- join: mlg (mlg-no-spa@mg.dorms.spbu.ru) joined #forth 12:10:53 re mlg :) 12:10:57 hi mlg 12:11:02 hi all 12:11:03 mlg!! 12:11:07 wow 12:11:11 who is a bot in here anyway? 12:11:16 who's mlg? 12:11:19 why cant all you SOB's be in here EVERY DAY!!!!! 12:11:24 geakazoid: Forth, gforth, sif 12:11:27 mlg: I don't care what anyone else says, my Forths will always have backtracking support from now on. 12:11:41 geakaoid: chanserv and clog are other bots 12:11:50 I440r: Because some people have lives perhaps? 12:11:52 clog is the nozy bot in here :) 12:11:54 a spy :) 12:12:01 not allowed 12:12:03 logs everything we say 12:12:06 do /whois clog 12:12:09 must idle in #forth :) 12:12:27 wheres tcn ? 12:12:28 Do like I440r, live you life here, kc5tja :-) 12:12:29 he leave ? 12:12:36 i guess so 12:12:48 him gona miss chipchuck 12:12:49 rob_ert: Sorry, I can't. I have money I need to make so I can stay alive. 12:12:54 last time I was in this room, there were a bunch of kids 12:13:02 there still are 12:13:11 kc5tja: :( 12:13:32 hmm, how much time until chuck? 12:13:39 2 hours 12:13:50 1 hour and 45 minutes 12:13:53 thanks. 12:14:00 i'll make sure to be back by then, bbl. 12:14:13 klooie: you could become a channel regular :P 12:14:16 I have no questions for him, so I'll likely not be here -- just logging. 12:14:24 ill go mow more grass then 12:14:29 the reason why i started this event 12:14:35 i have no SET questions for him 12:14:36 was to attract more forthers to here 12:14:44 it worked :) 12:14:50 Greetings. 12:14:50 I must have miscalculated the time till Chuck. 12:14:54 lets see if it wears off after chipchuck leaves 12:14:58 futhin, we've spoken briefly a while ago, i think. 12:15:01 alelhNull! 12:15:03 and to get more forth regulars here 12:15:08 i knnow you from #debian dont i ? 12:15:13 i know that nick somewehre :) 12:15:16 i'm studying forth a little out of interest. 12:15:17 I really have no questions at all. I'd like to say to him that we all owe him a great debt of gratitude for sharing his genius with us all those years ago, or there'd be no Forth -- can you do that, futhin? 12:15:20 privet, mlg :) 12:15:21 You do not. 12:15:31 sure quartus :) 12:15:31 I would have been here before but there were not forth programmers just kids 12:15:35 * klooie is not (yet) an actual forther. 12:15:39 Thanks :) 12:15:39 ive seen the nick before - maybe someone else :) 12:15:46 re Quartus -- I haven't used it in a while, but I don't have a Palm without one. :D 12:15:47 neway - mow mow mow mow MOO 12:15:52 too much grass 12:15:52 That is likely :) 12:15:59 takes too long to mow hhe 12:16:00 brb 12:16:01 kc -- glad to hear that. 12:16:45 Get all your friends to buy a copy :) 12:16:49 * kc5tja should probably upgrade to the latest Quartus though...mine doesn't have floating point words in it, and IIRC, the latest does. 12:17:03 They all had float -- what version have you got? 12:17:19 They do? Last I checked, it told me F* wasn't defined. Let me check. 12:17:27 F* is in there. 12:17:34 afk for 40 minutes! (scary!) 12:17:48 It's old... :) 12:17:49 Unless you're talking about PilotFORTH, the prototype. It's old. 12:17:51 Build 1998.11.12 12:17:57 0.8.1b 12:18:01 Ah. The beta. 12:18:11 Quartus what can you do with a Palm Pilot? Isn't it a toy? 12:18:30 I don't consider it such. It's a handy portable computer. 12:18:31 privet, rob_ert, whoever you are 12:18:50 I use it to develop apps, with Quartus Forth. 12:18:55 geakazoid: I use my Pilot for all sorts of things, from maintaining my D&D character sheets (I use memopad + MegaWiki for that), to phone numbers and addresses, to appointments, ... 12:19:00 Quartus I am sure; you can do email and notes and accounting but what about other things? 12:19:22 Just about anything you can imagine. There are thousands of apps available, freeware and otherwise -- check http://www.palmgear.com sometime. 12:19:29 * kc5tja wants to learn how to develop apps for the Palm, but doggone it, the API is just too damn much to learn. 12:19:46 That API isn't too tough, kc. Quartus Forth helps with it. 12:20:01 All the event handling is condensed down into EKEY, for instance. 12:20:28 I disagree -- last time I looked at Palm's API documentation, I had *zero* knowledge of where to start in writing an application. 12:20:33 Quartus so, I am working on an educational app that has game logic, is the Palm Pilot useful for this? 12:20:38 That'll be true of any new OS, though, kc. 12:20:40 At least with AmigaOS, they had examples and tutorials. 12:20:48 geak -- why not? 12:20:55 kc -- there are such available for the Palm OS too. 12:20:59 Quartus well, it could be grapchics intensive 12:21:12 mlg: Just a lonley swede :) 12:21:26 That becomes a question of whether the Palm hardware gives you sufficient graphics for your purposes. 12:21:31 rob_ert there are many swedes in the world, you are not alone 12:21:44 Quartus 3D 12:21:44 Not? 12:21:53 * rob_ert looks around 12:22:03 Bear in mind the Palm is at most a 33 MHz 68K core. 12:22:03 * rob_ert sees nobody outside his computer :) 12:22:12 Quartus: Where? I haven't seen any, either on Palm's website or elsewhere. Moreover, the Quartus website appears to completely assume (rightly so, perhaps) that the programmer is already familiar with the API. 12:22:20 rob_ert you need a web cam 12:22:26 ;-) 12:22:36 BTW who knows, what is the current pacific time? 12:22:49 mlg 12:22 12:22:53 mlg: 12:16 by my clock. 12:23:01 Palm offers a lot of free material in PDF format, it's a good place to start. Quartus offers sample applications, and there are tutorials available too, both at the Quartus site (http://www.quartus.net) and on the Wiki -- visit the Wiki via the Quartus Discussion Forum. 12:24:21 You can start simply enough, though -- TYPE and . and so on work fine under Quartus Forth, and it'll scroll the screen for you and do all the things you'd expect. There's ACCEPT, also. So you can build, and worry about the GUI elements later. 12:24:33 Quartus: I haven't checked the Wiki yet. And I'll recheck the Palm site again. 12:24:33 the Quartus shareware version I tried out came with a good example program. 12:24:41 http://www.palmos.com 12:24:44 Quartus: Well, it's with respect to the GUI that I was concerned about. 12:24:49 --- quit: mlg ("Leaving") 12:24:54 I provide a couple of sample apps myself, and there are bunches of others via the wiki. 12:25:18 Quartus: I've seen the source to the sample applications, and I have a hard time following them. 12:25:22 The GUI turns out to be pretty simple. You create your forms via, say, Quartus RsrcEdit, and then wait for events to come off of them. 12:25:39 Can you create your resources manually? 12:25:43 You might be well served by the tutorials. And we're very happy to help in the discussion forum. 12:25:48 e.g., without RsrcEdit? 12:25:50 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 12:26:01 Hello tathi 12:26:06 hey hey 12:26:30 Yes, two ways to do that -- on the desktop side, via PilRC or the Codewarrior Constructor, or via the GUI-creation API calls that are available in the later versions of the Palm OS. 12:26:35 --- join: mlg (mlg-no-spa@mg.dorms.spbu.ru) joined #forth 12:26:35 --- quit: mlg (Client Quit) 12:26:48 --- join: mlg (mlg-no-spa@mg.dorms.spbu.ru) joined #forth 12:26:50 * kc5tja will have to check it out someday. 12:27:12 Hope you do! 12:27:17 Let me know if I can help. 12:27:45 Well, if I start doing any serious Palm development, then I'll purchase the latest copy. Right now, I'm still unregistered, since I don't do anything really critical with it. 12:28:01 (as you can tell; I still have a 1998 version of it on my Palm!) 12:28:04 Beta, at that. 12:28:06 At least get the latest free evaluation version. 12:28:25 You can't make stand-alone apps with it, but otherwise it'll be better than the beta. 12:28:32 Oh, what are the memory constraints like in Quartus Forth? 12:28:39 For an app, you mean? 12:28:43 Yeah. 12:29:10 E.g., dictionary size, and whether or not it can access additional memory outside of the dictionary (e.g., database entries, dynamically allocated memory, etc)? 12:29:44 You have 32K of real memory dataspace at HERE, with more availble via API calls. The codespace is 64K; I'm working to extend that. You can access memory across the entire device, including databases, etc. 12:30:15 Quartus which database? 12:30:48 geakazoid: Palm databases are just data structures kept in Palm's write-protected memory. 12:30:50 The PalmOS calls its files in memory 'databases'. 12:31:21 They're not flat files, but are structured into records. 12:31:26 Quartus: OK, now I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "at HERE" and codespace. I'd think they'd be the same thing, but apparently not? 12:31:43 No, codespace and dataspace are separate. The Standard allows for that. 12:32:16 Right; I'd expect that, since it' sthe same scenario as a ROM'ed application 12:32:30 It turns out to be easier all around doing it that way. 12:32:39 I can't fathom that. 12:32:52 Having written 3 Forths in the past, I've never successfully divorced the code and data spaces. 12:33:12 If you start with that goal, you'll find the implementation quite direct. 12:33:15 (and currently implementing my fourth (sic) Forth now) 12:33:27 I have. :) 12:33:41 g'd morning :) 12:33:42 And it's still incomprehensible to me on how it would work. 12:33:54 morning Speuler 12:34:03 I can only speak of my experience with it; perhaps I have a natural talent for separating code and dataspaces. :) 12:34:27 good night 12:34:47 Maintaining the dictionary headers separate from the code space is something that, to me, just isn't possible. 12:35:04 And dataspace on top of that.. 12:35:08 --- part: ASau left #forth 12:35:08 Right now Quartus Forth keeps its dictionary headers in with the code, but I'm moving them out next. 12:35:08 I've found that there are a couple of places where it's actually simpler with separate spaces because you don't have to worry about code and data running into each other... 12:35:17 tathi, I agree with that. 12:35:30 though I generally end up combining them anyway :) 12:35:30 I'm not saying there aren't advantages. 12:35:40 Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. 12:35:46 I'm just saying, I cannot see how to doit. 12:36:20 Do you metacompile Quartus Forth -- that is, is each succeeding version of Quartus compiled by itself? 12:36:26 Quartus Forth keeps a base-pointer to codespace, and to dataspace. 12:36:28 back 12:36:44 kc5tja, you don't see how to separate code and data spaces? 12:36:47 Quartus: like 2 heres's ? 12:36:55 isforth does that for code and header 12:36:57 No, Quartus Forth is developed on the desktop. It's possible to do lots of interesting development work directly on the Palm, but it's not the best place to write a whole compiler. 12:37:12 I440r -- yes. HERE, and CSHERE. 12:37:23 isforth uses here and hhere :) 12:37:25 kc5tja: I was just sticking in my two cents -- I can certainly see advantages to either way. 12:37:34 every vocabulary is going to have its OWN here tho 12:37:44 the word 'here' will return the here for the CURRENT vocabulary 12:37:49 this is future devel tho 12:38:01 mlg: Not in the manner being discussed, no. The reason is splitting the two spaces requires you to hard-wire the sizes of things, and the system as a whole becomes substantially less adaptable that way. 12:38:02 futhin i messaged you - wake up :) 12:38:12 Kc -- it doesn't require hard-wiring. 12:38:20 hello 12:38:32 Well, the code space is 64K in size, and the data space is 32K. 12:38:38 That sounds like hardwiring to me. :) 12:38:39 Those are maximums due to the Palm OS itself. 12:38:46 Right. But the space is alloted for it. 12:38:46 Not due to the splitting of code/data. 12:39:00 Did Chuck skip this gig? 12:39:02 No, in fact it isn't -- dataspace is only allocated as it's used. So is codespace. 12:39:09 BigBoyToddy: 2PM Pacific Time. 12:39:14 Thanks! :o) 12:39:14 * Speuler wonders whether there was a breaking news item about Forth on CNN 12:39:20 I'll be back (famous last words) 12:39:27 Nice to see the huge turnout, later. 12:39:29 I use WHERE that tells what HERE we are currently using. 12:39:43 BigBoyToddy: N/p :) 12:39:44 lol 12:39:47 cu bb! 12:40:17 I440r: not much grass eh? 12:40:21 not much 12:40:25 im finished mowing now :) 12:40:36 but the mowers need putting away still heh 12:41:00 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on) 12:41:04 Quartus: I just can't see how that's done. :( Unless Quartus's runtime maintains a linked list of allocated chunks for codespace (not really needed for dataspace, since the word headers contain direct pointers to the relavent regions) 12:41:29 kc5: I have implemented a relocator (mostly for DLL support), and it has a potential of relocating different sections separately. 12:41:48 i have to relocate headers on fsave and boot :) 12:42:02 Codespace, during compilation, is a single allocated space, yes. 64K at present. Dataspace is allocated only as needed. When a stand-alone app is made, codespace is recursively extracted from the point of application entry. 12:42:07 See, I compile code, headers, and data all into a single, contiguous data space. 12:42:15 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 12:42:27 kc5: I load the Forth code twice, the 2nd time each section is loaded with an offset. And the offsets are different for different sections 12:42:30 And Quartus Forth, at present, has code and headers in one space, data in another. 12:42:52 kc5 makes turnkey a pointless thing :) 12:43:00 cant discard headers if they are interleaved 12:43:05 I440r: Turnkey doesn't interest me. 12:43:05 --- part: ASau left #forth 12:43:27 ok - i wanted people to be able to write turnkey apps with isforth - commercial applications would want turnkey 12:43:39 mlg: Yes, I'm familiar with that technique. I've been thinking about that myself. 12:43:45 plus as already stated i will be able to discard entire vocabularies 12:43:55 thus deminishing bloat/cruft 12:43:55 I440r: Well, I would like stand-alone apps too, but if that means the headers are saved with it, then they're saved with it. :) 12:44:05 :) 12:44:13 if it works.... it works 12:44:20 mlg: I just don't think it'll catch every relocation correctly. 12:44:29 On the Palm, bytes count. So I wrote the recursive extraction to turnkey only the code used in the app. 12:44:42 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 12:44:56 quartus make every compile a metacompile and only INCLUDE the WORDS that are referenced 12:44:58 Quartus: Is it (in)direct threaded? I imagine it'd be somewhat difficult to do with CODE definitions or with subroutine threading. 12:45:04 i want to add that sort of thing to isforth eventually 12:45:09 I440r -- kind of. 12:45:13 Quartus are you meaning that the Palm OS apps need to be turnkeyed? 12:45:28 geak -- I'm not understanding you. 12:45:30 turnkey doen right saves ALOT of space in the executable 12:45:45 its not JUST a security feature 12:46:06 * kc5tja is learning a lot so far... 12:46:09 and CM isn't even here yet. 12:46:19 * kc5tja is glad he showed up early. :) 12:46:22 kc -- Quartus Forth is native-code. Not threaded. 12:46:52 Quartus I am trying to follow that conversations. I am not if it is Palm OS apps that need to be turnkeyed or isforth? 12:46:56 Subroutine-threading with optimization. 12:47:08 OK, so subroutine threaded with inlined primitives. Here's my next question (sorry!): How does the recursive descent extractor know when the word is "finished?" 12:47:09 Quartus Forth turnkeys its apps. 12:47:33 I suppose I shouldn't be asking so many questions...I'm starting to delve into proprietary information now. 12:47:44 Not really -- I keep a marker at the end of each word. 12:47:59 Quartus ok. What about cross-platforms? What if your app needs to be in another API? 12:48:00 Oh, so you do the "obvious" thing then. Silly me. ;D 12:48:17 quartus you could create a tree structure of what words use what words 12:48:29 then when you turneky you can use this info 12:48:35 you dont NEED to dig then 12:48:48 geak -- Quartus Forth abstracts a few things, like the event-handling structure (that's bundled into EKEY, you don't need to worry about it). But it doesn't abstract the entire API. Cross-platform is a whole different can o' worms. 12:49:17 I440r, I do that, but on the fly. 12:49:19 I440r: That'd suck up a lot of RAM that the Palm generally doesn't have. 12:49:26 Yeah, I was getting to that. :) 12:49:28 quartus :) 12:50:35 I walk codespace from the entry point, and write the turnkey app at the same time. 12:50:39 I was just wondering all of these things, because my FS/Forth System 2 environment, I want to be able to use it to write my operating system with, instead of C. The ability to "turnkey" the kernel (as we're calling it here) in a nice and compact fashion would be quite nice to have. Not critical, mind you, but nice. 12:50:49 --- mode: I440r set +o Fare 12:51:08 .deop fare 12:51:08 Quartus: Address translation must be a nightmare though... 12:51:11 --- mode: I440r set -o Fare 12:51:18 was testing to see strictops was removed 12:51:44 i440r: type /msg chanserv help set 12:51:46 :P 12:51:54 No, trivial. All code is position-independant. 12:51:55 when chuck enters we plan to set mode +m and op him - NOT to stop people from being able to talk to chuck - just to prevent him being flooded with questions 12:52:00 Quartus: I assume the walking procedure causes a code space compaction that would cause even PC-relative offsets to change. 12:52:10 last time he was here some people got a little silly is all :) 12:52:25 All offsets are relative to a base-pointer; I generate a relocation table as I walk. 12:52:33 * rob_ert was silly, 12:52:38 Folks, what do you think about the site http://forth.sourceforge.net ? 12:53:05 i440r -- that's the best way to do it, +m. 12:53:10 mld i had isforth.sourceforge.net but SF was taking too much time for "management work" 12:53:20 mlg: I don't know what to think. On the surface, it seems pointless, seeing as how the ANSI committee has disbanded, but on the other hand, there are a couple of good points discussed on it. 12:54:09 mlg: OK, I stand corrected. This site is *totally* different from what I remember. The site has definately changed. 12:54:24 mlg, last time I looked I was imppressed that it had grown 12:55:35 --- quit: ASau () 12:56:00 Hmmm 12:56:01 mlg: Yeah, this site is radically different from my recollection. I'm browsing it now. 12:56:47 I have a word called "box", that calls the word "vbox", when I redefine "vbox" and run "box", "box" still uses the old "vbox"...why? 12:56:48 kc5tja Bil Waden:Wil Baden did a presentation at this Apr SVFIG and he had said that he gave up Thisforth and began ANS forth programming when he realized that he could do anything with it 12:57:04 Is a new entry for the new "vbox" created? 12:57:06 That's how Forth works, rob_ert. 12:57:22 Hehe :) 12:57:24 There are implementations that let you override old definitions, but it's not Standard. 12:57:31 i dont like ans 12:57:42 So I have to recompile everything if I change one word? 12:57:43 most of my dislike is based on their choice of names however 12:57:45 I like it. I wouldn't be in the game if not for the Standard. 12:57:52 rob -- yes. 12:57:54 and their attempt to make forth more C like] 12:57:58 I440r I'm sure but I was impressed that his code is simple to port between forths 12:58:02 Said recompilation is very very fast with Forth. 12:58:05 Okay... 12:58:09 geek portability is a MITH 12:58:16 mlg: This is neat. It's like a Forth "design patterns" collection. 12:58:22 Not like g++ with -O3 then, Quartus? =) 12:58:22 jack of all - master of one. pick pone 12:58:22 rob_ert: imagine redefining : drop ; 12:58:24 I440r it may be a myth but so is reality 12:58:25 erm pick one 12:58:28 Speuler: :D 12:58:30 Guaranteed faster. :) 12:58:46 lol 12:58:58 tuartus not guaranteed to be 12:59:06 Heh 12:59:09 i440r: you are a myth! portability is not! :P 12:59:16 geakazoid: Well, I think I pretty much disproved the "You can do anything with it" in comp.lang.forth a few days ago. 12:59:21 might not take any less time to jump into a do nothing colon def than it does to execute a functional coded def 12:59:36 kc5tja: what's the name of the thread? 12:59:42 geakazoid: Pure ANSI Forth *cannot* fully support arbitrary new compiler words. 12:59:48 futhin: Backtracking 13:00:08 kc5tja: and you think you proved what? 13:00:08 * kc5tja tried to implement START and EMERGE with pure ANSI constructs, and it just can't happen. The standard simply doesn't allow it. 13:00:11 Of course ANS isn't the final word; any implementation can have specific capabilities that extend it and are specific to the mechanisms within that Forth. 13:00:40 mmm... anti-standardization 13:00:45 i'm sure quite a handful of forthers in here will agree that "ANSI forth sucks" 13:00:48 --- join: svara (~svara@pD950B1F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 13:00:55 Heh 13:00:55 svara hi :) 13:00:57 Hi svara 13:00:57 Quartus: The problem with ANS is that it doesn't fully expose the compiler's API. The compiler can be fully exposed in a portable manner, but ANS didn't do it for some reason. 13:01:02 Why did you come here? 13:01:04 For a good reason. 13:01:12 I didn't think you liked forth ;) 13:01:12 lol we invite chuck moore and the channel gets active :P 13:01:24 Quartus: If it can be done portably, the reason isn't good enough. 13:01:27 Well, svara's just an #ypn-er 13:01:43 It can't be, though. But perhaps I'm wrong; draft a wordset, and post it; if it's bulletproof, it'll be adopted. 13:02:55 kc5&K: you will also find out that ANS is not enough powerful if you try to implement DIVE and DIVE# (call recursively 1st or n-th enclosing START..EMERGE block) 13:03:04 Quartus: Words like >MARK and thats f83 stuff - isforth uses those 13:03:32 >mark >resolve rob_ert: i wanted to test your dancing kirby on that forth-bot... what was it called again? 13:03:41 nice neat simple 13:03:54 i avoid the use of ifs where i can tho 13:03:57 abs exec: 13:03:59 false-case 13:04:01 true-case 13:04:12 Quartus: >MARK and Everybody's got pet functionality that they may not see in the Standard document. You're not prevented from implementing it by the Standard, and if you feel it's of value, propose a wordset -- if the community agrees, they'll adopt it. 13:04:22 hehe, i read the flack you caught on clf about that, I440r. :) 13:04:36 klooie heh 13:04:43 its good code 13:04:46 Quartus: I can't propose a wordset until I have a working prototype first. 13:04:50 it factors the code out better 13:04:56 and its ALOT faster 13:05:04 Quartus: And I can't do that, because the ANSI standard won't *let* me. That's the conundrum. 13:05:08 it reminded me of lisp's if (or cond). 13:05:15 No working prototype is required, though it'd be nice. It doesn't have to be written in ANS Forth, either. What you need is the text that describes how the words work, as per the existing wordsets. 13:05:34 There's no requirement at all to model the function of proposed new wordsets in Standard Forth. 13:05:49 kc5tja my point is not that anyone shoud be limited to ANS but that ANS should remain a foundation one can stray and play from 13:05:52 i dont use it EVERY time - i still use if/else/then :) 13:06:19 the problemwith the exec: false-case true-case method is that you have to factor out the test code too 13:06:26 because case: is an implied exit 13:06:28 If I use a new Forth, it's damned nice to know that the Standard words work as I expect them too. If there's other nifty stuff, that's great. 13:06:39 geakazoid: I take a slightly different, but equally compatible, view: ANSI should be a layer, implemented using the more capable core Forth environment. That is, if you have an ANSI compliant program you want to run, load the ANSI wordset, then load the ANSI program, and it should work fine. 13:06:47 i might do an ifexec: true-case false case continue-executio-here 13:07:04 kc5tja I am in agreement with that - a layer 13:07:07 Quartus: This isn't about ditching existing behavior. It's about being able to implement new behavior not thought of by the standard. 13:07:23 i.e. nest into true-case or false-case and unnest to continue-here 13:07:25 * kc5tja will think of the words, and make the proposition. 13:07:33 kc -- that isn't 100% possible in a lot of cases, because the underlying implementations make assumptions not allowed by the Standard. You'd need to lay a whole Forth on top of some Forths to get them to be Standard, and that's hardly useful. 13:07:39 --- part: svara left #forth 13:07:58 kc5tja one can always create new behaviors and replace words 13:08:21 You can indeed implement functionality that the Standard didn't think of. Quartus Forth certainly does. That functionality does not have to be written in strict Standard Forth, by any means. Your hands are not tied. 13:08:58 Quartus: See above. I'm not repeating myself. 13:09:13 Was anyone else here at the Wil Baden demo of Coolforth? 13:09:40 not me 13:09:45 kc5,Quar: I do remember what was said when the standard was accepted. "You can use whatever you used before the standard. The standard is not a definition of Forth, it only says what is portable. It is very possible that no single program may be both standard and useful. So do not be afraid of environmental dependency. The standard does not prohibit it. It just makes you think about portability." 13:09:47 * kc5tja has tried to implement the control flow words START and EMERGE, and failed miserably. Repeatedly. 13:10:05 mlg -- I agree with that. 13:10:14 kc5tja: so get away from ANSI.. or not. 13:10:16 mlg thank you 13:10:50 futhin: You're missing the point -- I *can't* get away from the standard. GForth **IS** the standard. GForth takes the attitude that ANS Forth is all that there is. There can be nothing more. 13:11:01 futhin: Unless, that is, I write my own Forth. 13:11:05 Well Coolforth is an example that Will demoed that would be cool to be portable because he has an extensible editor that one can compile forth from a clip board 13:11:07 GForth has a passle of non-standard stuff in it. 13:11:28 thats the first good thing i heared about gforth heh 13:11:29 lol 13:11:29 kc5tja gforth has some issues 13:11:34 Quartus: Like I already got done explaining: I tried to use the >MARK and Neither word is Standard. Gforth implements them in ways you don't like, perhaps. 13:11:54 Quartus: EVEN when I tried to implement the functionality using POSTPONE BEGIN and whatnot. 13:11:57 : >mark here 0 , 13:12:11 : I440r: Exactly. And because GForth puts CS-information on the data stack, that HERE SWAP ! causes it to be corrupted. 13:12:43 They're F83, right? I can't quite remember what they're supposed to do. 13:13:07 kc5tja but from what I understand you cannot compile the gforth kernel with forth is that right? 13:13:10 uck 13:13:19 >MARK marks a spot in the code space, saying "This is an address that refers to something that hasn't been compiled yet. It'll be fixed up later." 13:13:20 I remember I tried to understand via SEE how gForth voacbularies work. I concluded that that was terrible. 13:13:31 i440r: what do you think about isforth being ported over to mips? if a fellow coder really needed you to do that, would you help? 13:13:33 MARK'ed spot, and fixes the address up. 13:13:35 the paramter stack is USER SPACE - the system shouldnt be putting things on there 13:13:50 futh sure - if its mips linux/fbsd :) 13:13:53 kc, If I understand the problem, you could implement that with your own small stack and manage it that way. 13:13:56 If >MARK is implemented using PC-relative branch address, then that's how it fixes it up. If it's an absolute address, it'll use an absolute address, etc. 13:14:19 pc-relative would be SLIGHTLY more complex 13:14:25 i440r: isforth can be coded for every possible platform and architecture right? no limits? :) 13:14:25 Quartus: I can't, because I can't figure out how GForth encodes its dictionary. 13:14:28 you have to compute the delta from the branch to the branch target 13:14:44 Quartus: I tried relative, I tried absolute -- nothing works. 13:14:46 only limited by who does what when 13:14:54 I think, like Quartus Forth, it's relative to a base address held in a register. 13:14:59 You'd have even more trouble with a native-code Forth. Are you then suggesting that only specific internal implementations should be allowed? 13:15:08 kc5 you could create youru own stack that >mark etc use 13:15:16 kc5tja: did you email the gforth coders to find out how gforth encodes its dictionary? or how you might implement your START EMERGE stuff? 13:15:23 Quartus: >mark and kc5 or do : But they require that you know intimate details about how the dictionary is encoded. 13:15:56 or something 13:15:58 Quartus: And if they are, so what? Ditch >mark, and use something more specific, like >FwdBranch, or >0Branch, or some such -- something higher level, but which does the same job. 13:16:32 There you go. That's an ideal new wordset to propose, with full descriptions of the actions of each word. Then see what the community says. 13:16:41 Quartus: I already said I would do exactly that. 13:16:48 just did the following with gForth (trying to copy&paste): 13:16:50 Aren't you done yet? :) 13:17:03 : ?BRANCH IF R> CELL+ >R ELSE R> @ >R THEN ; redefined ?branch with ?BRANCH ok 13:17:04 : >MARK HERE 0 , ; redefined >mark with >MARK ok 13:17:04 : >RESOLVE HERE SWAP ! ; redefined >resolve with >RESOLVE ok 13:17:04 : foo ?BRANCH [ >MARK ] ." hi!" [ >RESOLVE ] ; ok 13:17:04 1 foo hi! ok 13:17:04 0 foo ok 13:17:49 make >markk and >resolve immediate ? 13:17:59 See, now that's not what I was doing. 13:18:12 When I did SEE BEGIN, or SEE WHILE, it didn't have [ and ] in the source. 13:18:21 --- join: MrDinner (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 13:18:26 mrreach! 13:18:33 --- mode: I440r set +o MrDinner 13:18:33 hi mrdinner :) 13:18:34 tada! 13:18:35 it also didn't use >RESOLVE -- it used lol 13:18:38 --- nick: MrDinner -> MrReach 13:18:58 is CM going to be here soon? 13:19:10 "is he almost here yet" ??? 13:19:11 lol 13:19:11 But either way, I know there's a more portable method. There has to be, and I'll propose a wordset. 13:19:21 geakazoid: One more hour. 13:19:31 40 minutes to go :P 13:19:42 if he's on time 13:19:45 yup 13:19:54 At any rate, I can pretty well say that none of my future Forths will be ANSI compliant. ANSI words will be there, of course, but only those that make sense. 13:20:17 kc5tja: ANS does not require that you implement all words 13:20:18 Compliance is really just CORE and some documentation. 13:20:20 i'm starting a betting pool.. will chuck be early or will he be late? :) 13:20:41 only that if you implement the words that they define, that you give said words the proper sementics 13:21:00 or will he default ? :) 13:21:03 i'd rename everything and change all the semantics 13:21:07 MrReach: If you are ANS compliant, you are obligated to implement *all* of the words of a particular, non-extension wordset. In particular, ALL ANSI complaint Forths must implement the CORE wordset, in its entirety. If you support the FILE-ACCESS wordset, you must implement ALL the words in that wordset, etc. 13:21:07 Right. And CORE isn't exactly a radical set of words, or an outlandish set of semantics for those words. 13:21:19 i'd rename @ to GET and ! to SAVE and ." to PRINT and so on 13:21:32 futhin thats because you are lame :P 13:21:32 kc -- you can just specify which words you do implement, and not claim compatibility with the entire wordset. 13:21:53 i440r: naw, my way is better :P 13:22:13 Quartus: I won't support 2VARIABLE, for example; it makes no sense (especialy since it violates the conventions established by 2* and 2/). 13:22:15 slower. more typing. will slow down the compile and its NOT FORTH!!!! :) 13:22:19 "Ansi compliant, providing xxx from the CORE wordset, providing ... from the FILE wordset ..." 13:22:41 kc, that's fine; just document your exceptions. Anybody who wants it can add 2VARIABLE -- you might show them how. 13:22:53 * MrReach grins. 13:23:06 Mr -- all of CORE is required. That's the baseline. 13:23:10 what is forth? forth isn't the darn names of the words.. its something much more ethereal 13:23:10 : 2VARIABLE CREATE 0 , 0 , ; ;D 13:23:12 call it dvariable 13:23:18 not 2variable 13:23:25 oh, I was mistaken in my understanding, then 13:23:26 I440r: Exactly. 13:23:36 DVARIABLE, D!, D@, D+, D/, etc. 13:23:50 You'd have to work hard to find something in CORE you hated. 13:23:56 futhin that sounds meta-physical to me 13:24:07 i'm meta-man 13:24:10 heh, I440r disagrees vehemently with CELL and CELLS 13:24:11 quartus. POSTPONE 13:24:12 Quartus: WORD FIND <-- two that *right away* come to mind. 13:24:14 yes. 13:24:15 flying the metaphorical skies! 13:24:17 another one 13:24:21 Oh, and POSTPONE 13:24:24 POSTPONE is a total joke. 13:24:31 * MrReach shrugs. 13:24:34 and DEFER 13:24:36 lol 13:24:39 defer is cool 13:24:42 people abuse DEFER as far as i can tell 13:24:42 Actually, there is no DEFER in the ANSI standard. 13:24:43 and its NOT ans :P 13:24:51 But you can implement POSTPONE without much trouble, right? It's not a challenge. And then also provide whatever tools you think are better. 13:24:52 they do - but with reason 13:25:07 yeah whatever, everytime i do "SEE " in gforth or whatever i see a shit load of DEFER 13:25:09 quartus i am diametrically opposed to the word 13:25:12 it's annoying 13:25:16 i want to see the actual code 13:25:24 not a whole bunch of diversions heh 13:25:26 I can implement POSTPONE in terms of COMPILE and [COMPILE], but POSTPONE itself will not be part of FS/Forth's core. 13:25:39 kc5 so does win324th 13:25:49 see . 13:25:50 : . 13:25:50 s>d d. ; ok 13:25:53 What's s>d? 13:25:56 i define compile and [compile] 13:25:59 Philosophical opposition to a computer subroutine is a matter of personal choice, I suppose. And if you're writing a Forth for your own consumption, it hardly matters. But providing baseline compatability with the Standard is useful to others. 13:25:59 single to double 13:26:02 single to double 13:26:06 I'll be right back :) 13:26:07 rob_ert: Converts a single precision integer to a double-wide integer. 13:26:08 thanks 13:26:14 hmm 13:26:28 why does it do that? Why not print the single directly? 13:26:31 rob_ert: what the heck where's the space? : . s>d d. space ; 13:26:35 Quartus: Like I said, implement ANS as a layer on top of a more capable core. 13:26:40 quartus thers nothing to stop you as a user of the isforth compiler from defining postpone - like you say - its not difficult 13:26:47 futhin: Ask gforth :D 13:26:49 Quartus: By definition, the core must be capable of providing all of ANS's requirements. 13:26:51 but i wont include the definition in my kernel 13:26:57 kc5tja: ans layer ontop of a capable core, that sounds good to me 13:27:00 because i think the concept is BAD 13:27:01 kc, like I said -- can't be done. Look at the F83 implementations that have gaps when you try to layer ANS on top of them. 13:27:11 Just broke gforth with 13:27:11 rob_ert: gforth gave me : . s>d d. SPACE ; i think 13:27:12 DEFER x ok 13:27:12 DEFER y ok 13:27:12 ' x IS y ok 13:27:12 ' y IS x ok 13:27:15 see x 13:27:16 Quartus: Then F83 isn't a more capable core, now is it? 13:27:17 my comment on compile and [compile] in my source say why 13:27:33 :) 13:27:42 heh 13:27:44 futhin: I pasted from my gforth... 13:27:48 i know 13:27:52 weird 13:28:09 Quartus: That's my point -- the key words here are, "More Capable Core." Not F83, not F79, ... a more capable core. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it *can* fulfill ANSI requirements if you *need* it. 13:28:23 well, if you're deliberately trying to break your system, forth will let you do that easier than most languages, too 13:28:56 kc, that's good. Then simply write and provide that facility to your users, document and claim Standard compatiblity, and away you go. 13:29:25 mrreach self in foot shoot ??? :) 13:29:36 foot in self shoot ? 13:29:36 erm 13:29:37 Quartus: *whew* Glad I got that done and out of the way. :) That's what I was *trying* to convey. :D 13:29:53 hi 13:29:55 I can't personally bring myself to have an emotional position on, say, POSTPONE -- it's a subroutine. 13:30:02 greets, BigBoyToddy 13:30:18 quartus my objections are emotional :) 13:30:25 more to the point, does postpone appear often in your code? 13:30:33 Quartus: Well, it's a subroutine that does one of two behaviors, depending on what it is you're postponing. 13:30:34 but they are personal i guess :P 13:30:55 compile and [compile] are useful in creating and compiling words mostly 13:31:07 That it does. Or, taken from a broader scope -- it performs the compile-time behaviour of whatever word it is your postponing. That can be called a single behaviour. 13:31:08 and MOST of the forth isnt going to be creating or compiling words 13:31:15 it going to be created/compiled words 13:31:40 Quartus: What happens if you want to postpone POSTPONE itself? POSTPONE POSTPONE POSTPONE POSTPONE doesn't work. 13:31:57 good grief 13:32:13 lol 13:32:14 It's a forward-parsing word. But I can't imagine why you'd want to do that. It may in fact work. 13:32:16 int i=4 13:32:20 int j=i++ + ++i 13:32:21 lol 13:32:58 Well, not as you've written it, because it's an immediate forward-parsing dealie. But in concept -- perhaps. But for god's sake why? 13:33:34 Is it for you to ask why? 13:33:41 I don't think it is. 13:33:41 Indeed it is for me to ask why. 13:33:44 I think it is. 13:33:45 Why is my business. 13:33:45 heh, so you can create a word that postpones other words, of course 13:33:50 some things just wernt meant to be is all :) 13:33:53 Well, that works. 13:33:56 You don't need to know why *I* want to do something with the FOrth environment. 13:34:00 : foo postpone postpone ; immediate 13:34:14 : bar foo postpone ; immediate 13:34:25 arg! 13:34:28 : why? bar something_else ; 13:34:52 * MrReach bashes obfuscated codes writers with a very dead, very cold fish. 13:34:54 lets just tie us one of them their gordian knots :) 13:35:01 I can ask why; you can refuse to testify under the 5th amendment, if you like, but I can still ask. 13:35:05 And stick it in a klein bottle...? :) 13:35:25 If you want to postpone postpone, anyway, you can do it; should work fine. And you can do it to any depth you choose. 13:35:27 Quartus: Well, one of the nicest features of Forth is the fact that it does have immediate words. 13:35:40 Quartus: It's your ticket to extending indefinately the capabilities of the compiler. 13:35:47 Sure, without immediate words you'd have a bunch of fiddly syntax specifiying your compilation mode. 13:35:52 also one of the biggest headaches 13:36:00 Quartus: The ability to manipulate source text and its compiled equivalent is an incredibly powerful tool. 13:36:14 Likewise without forward parsing words, you'd have more fiddling. 13:36:18 Quartus: Asking "why?" to something like the above is like asking a Lisp user "Why must you have macros?" 13:36:48 Kc, I ask why simply because I cannot conceive of a situation where you'd want to postpone postpone. In fact, I'm not asking why to suggest you shouldn't bother, nor as a defense -- as it works. I've just tried it. 13:36:50 MrReach: could you please indicate to whom you are replying? 13:36:52 then the answer is "Because I wan't to have X capability" 13:36:53 wrap it up in a modius strip :) 13:37:22 mlg: my last comment was that immediate words are also one of forth's biggest headaches 13:37:40 Quartus: I'm just posing an example. Someone MIGHT want to do something like that. 13:37:47 And they can. 13:38:04 : [COMPILE] POSTPONE POSTPONE ; IMMEDIATE was one of the top 10 1994 jokes 13:38:18 mlg: Heheh :) 13:38:24 how well does that work in whatever forth you're using? have you tested to see if it breaks? It might be a moot point 13:38:49 Try it; should be fine. There's nothing special about POSTPONE that prevents it from being POSTPONEd. 13:39:19 I certainly hope I never come across sources with such a construct, though 13:39:24 Agreed. 13:39:30 argh my mouse focall point keeps moving an inch to the left of my pointer! 13:40:02 I440r hrm... what did you do to it? 13:40:16 geek its a synaptics touchpad 13:40:23 I440r: I take it isforth isn't quite ready for XWin then??? 13:40:23 its been flakey in x from day 1 13:40:24 POSTPONE POSTPONE as a definition of COMPILE and [COMPILE] was recommended by the standard or by some of TC members 13:40:31 mrreach good guess:P 13:40:51 I440r maybe your tochpad is going off the deep end, the touch plate maybe 13:41:31 I'm impressed with the amount of attention that CMoore still can rally 13:41:41 futhin: good call on inviting him here 13:41:46 :) 13:42:18 i just do a suspend to disk and switch back on and its fixed :) 13:42:28 but its still a pain in the ass 13:42:46 I'd like to see ERather here, too, I like the way that she speaks 13:42:55 eh.. 13:42:58 MrReach she is quite clear 13:43:06 elegant 13:43:08 An exceptionally intelligent woman. 13:43:14 heh, as a forther should be 13:43:27 i don't always agree with her 13:43:32 Yes, she is. I agree with about 50% to 75% of what she says. 13:43:32 MrR: who are you? 13:43:35 she seems to be somewhat self-promotional.. 13:43:43 No crime in that; she runs a business. 13:43:55 heh, she was a founder at Forth, Inc. 13:43:58 i like what jeff fox says better than what eliz rather says 13:44:11 nonono, that isn't what I meant 13:44:12 jfox is more free thinking. 13:44:17 You mean you like Jeff 10,000,000 times better. :) hehehe 13:44:19 I like the *WAY* that she speaks 13:44:31 in fact jeff fox & elizabeth rather seem to post the longest posts on CLF :) 13:44:32 His business isn't nearly as large as Elizabeth's, so he has more room for exploration. 13:44:37 Gakuk! 13:44:38 whatever the content 13:44:45 Hour H-16 13:44:54 Quartus: Hehe -- good one. :) 13:45:22 where is Jeff in England? 13:45:27 Thanks. Got that draft proposed wordset ready? :) 13:45:27 geeka dunno 13:45:30 i emailed jeff fox 13:45:34 --- join: WFR (WFR@user-33qtmfa.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 13:45:35 when I read "recursive factorials, while much beloved of computer scientists, ..." I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes 13:45:37 jeff is in england ? 13:45:40 ho wfr 13:45:40 but i don't know if he'll show up 13:45:40 futhin: did he respond, and also did he committ to being here? 13:45:42 greets, WFR 13:45:49 Quartus: However, the numbers add up. I've seen a 32-bit CPU that is competitive with the 80386 in terms of average performance, using only some 5000 to 10000 transistors -- certainly at least 2 orders of magnitude less than the 386 it competes with. 13:45:52 bigboytoddy: no, i don't know if he'll show up 13:45:58 Mr. Fox lives in California 13:46:09 thats what i thunked 13:46:12 kc -- maybe. I haven't seen the product, can't say. But Jeff gets pretty vicious about it. 13:46:24 bill ragsdale! 13:46:25 wow 13:46:27 hi :) 13:46:28 Quartus: I've got a Jornada 525 that I'm thinking of writing a Forth for ... have yoiu any inclinations to support WinCE platforms??? 13:46:29 goshawk`: Are you sure? Last I knew, he was in Texas. 13:46:35 kc5: yes 13:46:56 MrReach: started on one. It's not any fun writing for WinCE, and the market is very small for that sort of tool. I may pursue it, may not. 13:47:07 Quartus: Yeah. Almost evangelical. That's his downfall; it may be nice that his CPUs are 1000 times faster than some other CPU, but he needs to learn to make it more believable in his press copy. 13:47:08 Hi, Bill Ragsdale here. Just figuring out IRC. 13:47:09 oh! cool! 13:47:20 wfr thats ok - experriment away :) 13:47:27 greets, Mr. Ragsdale 13:47:34 kc -- and also not to explode in infantile rage when somebody expresses scepticism. 13:47:34 Hello Mr. R, welcome. 13:47:37 pleased to meet you, Mr. Ragsdale 13:47:39 goshawk`: Where at in California? 13:47:43 Bill, please! 13:47:43 heh 13:47:51 ok 13:47:52 Quartus: I just politely ignore such posts... :) 13:47:59 That can be a full-time job, kc. :) 13:48:02 bill my dad says you wrote the 6502 assembler ?? 13:48:05 Quartus: which processor? SH3 or StrongARM? 13:48:37 WFR: We post this way because most IRC clients will highlight your nick, allowing you to more readily see when someone is posting to you. For example, my name is Sam, but someone who posts "Sam, this is blah blah", I might not catch it amidst the remainder of the text. 13:48:37 Mr -- the development environment such as it is requires writing in C, and then cross-compiling to either or all of the different CE CPUs. 13:48:53 Bill, I'm a 6502 nut myself (and 6809 and PPC), just a thanks retro for the work you did on the 6502 stuff. 13:48:59 I wrote the fig-Forth model and ran the Implementation Workshop. It was translated for about 12 processors and then I wrote the 6502 assembler. 13:48:59 kc5: UltraTechnology is located in Berkeley 13:49:16 ok, gotcha 13:49:25 Ahhh... Too far for me to visit. 13:49:36 i knew i recognized the name from someplace :) 13:49:43 6502 rules. 13:49:47 Actually, the 65816 is better. :D 13:49:57 everyone is welcome in #forth - specially forth/6502 coders :) 13:50:04 --- join: jim (~jim@12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:50:07 heh 13:50:12 greets, jim 13:50:15 i USED to know every single opcode on the 6502 by heart and that INCLUDES all the psudo ops 13:50:20 hiya 13:50:22 * onetom is also back no 13:50:26 not touched the 6502 in 20 years tho 13:50:28 I moved to Woodland CA (near Sacramento) 6 years ago. Sold Dorado Systems and now publish a financial newsletter. Hack in Matlab 13:50:29 hi jim 13:50:32 * rob_ert is back now 13:50:35 thunked you mite fly by here :) 13:50:46 Are Hour CM - 1 now? 13:50:53 WFR: That's the way to do it. Money for nothing and your chicks for free. :) 13:50:59 10 minutes 13:51:03 and counting 13:51:09 quartus i need money!!! 13:51:10 hi honoured crowd :) 13:51:11 --- quit: WFR () 13:51:14 * Fare is just back from a computer museum 13:51:17 a chick or 2 wouldnt go amiss either :) 13:51:23 Cool :) 13:51:24 Fare: what museum did you visit. 13:51:28 around 400 machines from 1977 to 1997 13:51:31 Your basement? 13:51:33 mo5.com, but IRL 13:51:37 rob_ert lol 13:51:41 cool, Fare 13:51:43 hmm, maybe I can scare up a FIT team member :) 13:51:51 jim: go for it. 13:51:57 jim FIT team member ? 13:51:58 jim: FIT? 13:52:00 AIT? 13:52:02 er 13:52:02 FIT? 13:52:07 Forth Implementation Team 13:52:08 forth ... team. 13:52:12 oooh 13:52:13 cool 13:52:14 Standards group 13:52:20 the more the merrier 13:52:26 absolutely 13:52:27 Ahh, so POSTPONE is HIS fault!! ;D 13:52:30 * kc5tja runs 13:52:35 i just have visions of all this activity evaporating after chipchuck leaves :P 13:52:45 Count on it :) 13:52:48 I440r: It probably will. 13:52:51 lol 13:52:54 it probably will, nice spring day ... and we're on IRC 13:52:54 dangit :P 13:52:57 I'm going to enjoy the day after chuck leaves. LOL 13:52:57 We'll go back to 5 users and 3 bots :) 13:53:06 heh :) 13:53:14 i just mowed a whole corn fields worht of grass 13:53:20 idle on irc is what i need now :) 13:53:25 Hehe :) 13:53:43 Well, I have nothing better to do today, so I'll probably stay and work some more on my diagnostic Forth envrionment here at work. 13:53:46 I440r: sounds like you need a riding mower 13:53:46 specially if the channel is going to get some of the BIG names of forth 13:53:55 mrreach i need a job first :P 13:53:56 * kc5tja loves so much that I got the OK to implement Forth at work. All my coworkers hate me now. :D 13:54:03 --- join: XeF4 (bixsto@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:54:07 Hi XeF4 13:54:10 greets, XeF4 13:54:11 xef4 hi 13:54:13 oi 13:54:15 kc5tja: all you need for that is an enter key :) 13:54:18 NO they arent all bots - they are all real people :) 13:54:20 kc5tja: so that is cool, you get to FORTH at work and get paid, and nothing else to do? 13:54:23 win new 13:54:24 I440r I want a forth bot so I can do things too, but I have windows 13:54:25 well - there are some bots too heh 13:54:26 oops 13:54:42 geakazoid: get FPC 13:54:44 geek get a clue - get linux!!! :) 13:54:46 ya 13:54:48 fpc is good 13:55:03 my isforth bot could be ported to fpc if you could scare up some dos sockets code 13:55:04 BigBoyToddy: No, I get to do Forth at work because I have no less than 12 chip architectures to verify, and we've been working on a tethered C environment with differing source code for x86 and MIPS diagnostics software. 13:55:07 gforth: : t 4 5 6 + * . ; t cr t 13:55:08 that's Laxen/Perry forth 13:55:12 MrReach: 44 13:55:12 MrReach: 44 13:55:14 * kc5tja is a semiconductor verification technician. 13:55:17 I440r I have dual boot with linux but I have DSL and linux could not see my DSL card 13:55:19 Question: is there anything from FORTH that needs be kept in a High-Level Language? 13:55:22 jim: What do you mean? 13:55:25 jim its BASEd on laxen and perry - but its tom zimmer :) 13:55:31 ahh 13:55:37 geek internal modem >? 13:55:47 want to buy my external modem ? 13:55:49 Anyway, the Forth envrionment will let me write one source code for my diagnostics software, and run it on either x86 or MIPS. 13:55:52 Perry sold us a copy way back when :) 13:55:57 --- join: ChrisJ (cjakeman@jakeman.plus.com) joined #forth 13:56:01 Hi 13:56:07 hi chris j :) 13:56:10 I440r yes, speedstream, I went to their website and they said that they had a linux port but I could never get one 13:56:13 greets, ChrisJ 13:56:30 This is a very happy chatty group of hackers, :o) 13:56:34 I440r will it work on pacbell? 13:56:37 geek sorta makes sockets code in linux a moot point for you :) 13:56:42 I wrote some ip calculator words for gforth 13:56:47 geek is it x86 ? - shud work 13:56:57 jim: did you publish them? 13:56:58 fare: your question doesn't make sense to me 13:57:00 jim isforth has a bare bones sockets etension now 13:57:02 Chris, was there anything on the #FIGUK channel? I have seen no activity via servers that I could access. 13:57:05 I440r yes, PII 13:57:09 using syscalls to do it all 13:57:28 Hi everyone. I've just left the monthly IRC session at #FIGUK to meet you all (and Chuck Moore). 13:57:29 Forth in here is an irc bot extension to isforth using thos sockets 13:57:30 --- join: WFR (WFR@user-33qtmfa.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 13:57:34 not that the bot can do anything here heh 13:57:37 wb wfr 13:57:44 WFR: Bill? 13:57:46 Hi ChrisJ. 13:58:01 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login29.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 13:58:01 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 13:58:04 wb tcn 13:58:07 I'm trying to scare up Cassady... 13:58:09 hi 13:58:09 Bill, you having connection issues? 13:58:10 oh my god :) 13:58:23 and they arent bots either! lol 13:58:24 two minutes 13:58:25 MLG, we were 6 tonight - most are following me here. 13:58:30 MrReach: ;) 13:58:32 I'm back on. 13:58:40 I440r if I had an external DSL connection, I could use my P166 which all linux (used to use it on 56k modem) 13:58:42 welcome back. 13:58:44 WFR: Bill? 13:58:49 yes 13:59:03 WFR: you taught me how to use a metacompiler :) 13:59:04 mlg: My name is also Mark, and my initials are also "MLG" 13:59:08 geek :) 13:59:17 * kc5tja needs to LEARN how to write a metacompiler. 13:59:18 jim Yes, I dropped for a mintute. On ok now. 13:59:23 back before 1978 :) 13:59:26 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 13:59:30 hi 13:59:31 i have an external dsl modem - no problem in linux - just connect it to a NIC and your online 13:59:35 bob4th hi 13:59:39 hiya, bob4th 13:59:42 or maybe right around 1978 :) 13:59:44 --- join: wtanksley (trilluser@ip68-7-148-122.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 13:59:50 Hi 13:59:51 Heh 13:59:51 wtanksley: Yo! 13:59:52 I440r send me an email azedia@dolfina.org with a price 14:00:10 Is anyone from FORTH Inc. going to show? 14:00:10 --- join: bernd (bernd@dial022.mucweb.de) joined #forth 14:00:17 re Bernd 14:00:18 at the same time, you showed me how to bring the asm part of a kernel up 14:00:19 oh, cool! Tanksley is here! 14:00:24 wow, 3 ppl joining within a minute 14:00:28 *BIG* forth names 14:00:29 are we excited? :D 14:00:30 man i MIGHT have to remove my joke channel limit heh 14:00:34 wtanksle is my evil cohort in writing Dolphin... 14:00:34 hehe 14:00:40 JD was there... JJ probably too 14:00:44 Wait, how'd I get to be a BIG Forth name? 14:00:46 :-) 14:00:48 the #Figuk irc meeting just ended, I gather 14:00:49 But I know something about Dolphin that wtanksle doesn't know... 14:00:57 It's not left-handed! 14:00:58 Dolphin will be written in Forth. ;D 14:01:02 wtanksley all ya gotta do is write cluefull code - :) 14:01:04 You told me that! 14:01:12 I did? When?! 14:01:12 --- join: chipChuck (chipChuck@user-2ivfls5.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 14:01:16 Hi! 14:01:18 chipchuck! 14:01:19 hello 14:01:21 --- mode: futhin set +o chipChuck 14:01:22 greetings, Mr. Moore! 14:01:23 Hi, Chuck! 14:01:24 Hi Mr. Moore! 14:01:28 yay, hey mister Moore. :) 14:01:33 re chipchuck 14:01:35 Howdy 14:01:36 --- mode: I440r set +m 14:01:39 ok hang on guys 14:01:43 ha! greets, MrMoore! 14:01:47 we dont want to flood the place 14:01:57 will set -m presently 14:02:32 ok ... how do we proceed with this 14:02:38 Chuck, we're not quite sure how to proceed with this :) 14:02:41 first time doing this 14:02:43 :) 14:02:48 --- join: thefox (fox@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 14:02:55 greets, thefox 14:03:02 im guessing thefox is jeff fox ? 14:03:04 set the channel +m ... 14:03:06 --- mode: futhin set +o thefox 14:03:13 yes 14:03:17 then have people /msg you questions 14:03:17 --- join: Al1 (Al@210-55-144-66.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 14:03:19 Good crowd 14:03:31 i have collected a number of questions 14:03:34 thats what i thunked - ok i think i can remove the +m - but please dont everyone talk at once :) 14:03:43 then, if the question is good, give them +v so that they can converse with chucks 14:03:43 i'm not sure if we should do a standard interview.. or a free for all 14:03:47 it will evaporate once you leve chipchuck :) 14:03:47 what do you think chuck? 14:03:48 doh!@ 14:03:56 --- mode: I440r set -m 14:04:07 --- mode: futhin set +vvv Al1 AlephNull bernd 14:04:08 Just ask questions 14:04:21 thefox: what does aikido teaches you about forth, and conversely? 14:04:25 Or express opinions 14:04:29 chipChuck: What would a publication Statndard look like? 14:04:32 greetings, Mr. Fox, and welcome to #forth. 14:04:46 yes. greeting to ALL of you 14:04:46 He should be welcoming us to #forth. :) 14:04:51 --- join: juu (ammu@baana-62-165-190-249.phnet.fi) joined #forth 14:05:04 Publication standard can be transcribed into various dialects 14:05:06 even if you DO leave when chipchuck leaves it is a great pleasure to see you all here 14:05:21 --- join: witten (~witten@adsl-gte-la-216-86-210-121.mminternet.com) joined #forth 14:05:29 Lowest common denominator 14:05:43 But imprecise 14:05:54 --- join: M-bitter (~mbitter@p5082774F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:05:55 --- join: eihrul (lee@151.201.23.238) joined #forth 14:06:11 chipChuck/thefox: I know you're both involved in creating chips, and have probably gone thru several versions of forth chips... could you give us an idea of where you are in terms of stability and production? 14:06:28 --- join: oink (~ziga@owl.cuckoos.net) joined #forth 14:06:49 None in production; design stable 14:06:52 --- mode: futhin set +m 14:07:01 ok, here's the plan i'm thinking 14:07:05 let's do this formally for a bit 14:07:06 --- join: quartz (~k@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 14:07:11 then we'll -m and do it informally 14:07:18 i have 10 stock questions for chuck 14:07:23 gathered from people beforehand 14:07:31 --- join: miket2 (unknown@62.60.64.13) joined #forth 14:07:36 I haven't done a prototype run since 98 and the only MISC prouction run was MuP21 in 1994 by Dr. Ting. 14:07:42 --- quit: Al1 (Client Quit) 14:07:58 --- part: miket2 left #forth 14:08:03 --- topic: set to 'Wveryone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m' by I440r 14:08:07 --- join: Al1 (Al@210-55-144-66.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 14:08:16 futhin: who should new questions be /msg'd to? 14:08:25 me or other operators.. 14:08:41 that poses a slight "operators get flooded" problem heh 14:08:45 it needs to be *ONE* op ... the one chosen to give voices 14:08:56 --- join: John_Peters (JP@ppp-206-170-3-235.okld03.pacbell.net) joined #forth 14:09:05 fine, everybody messages questions to me heh 14:09:08 --- join: jeffp (~jeff@jrpenn.demon.co.uk) joined #forth 14:09:15 but i already have a handful 14:09:17 *goshawk`: how did you come to the conclusion that Forth was too complex, and that sourceless programming was your next move? 14:09:27 i thinki should remove my joke channel limit of 83 lol 14:09:29 that's the first question.. lets proceed from here for now heh :) 14:09:43 argh i guess i cant without further messing :P 14:09:53 shh i440r :P 14:10:03 Maybe by reading the Forth Standard 14:10:14 --- join: miket2 (unknown@62.60.64.13) joined #forth 14:10:34 Mr. Moore and/or Mr. Fox: Have you ever considered writing a book on forth or computing? 14:10:37 There are Megaforths that try to do everything 14:10:48 Just like Windows or Unix 14:10:51 like c 14:10:58 --- topic: set to 'Everyone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m, /msg questions for Futhin' by MrReach 14:11:11 --- topic: set to 'Everyone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m, /msg questions to Futhin' by MrReach 14:11:26 sorry chipchuck, i didn't know you were finished with the first question .. 14:11:30 But sourceless code is a dead end. Self-limiting 14:11:54 just let me know when you are ready for the next question 14:11:59 from now on 14:12:00 Yes, I plan to write at least a couple of books. 14:12:00 I'll say over 14:12:03 ok 14:12:37 colorForth seeks the absolute minimum of overhead. 14:12:55 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-1257.arbok.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 14:13:00 Published colorForth is overly complex. colorForth in colorForth will be simple. 14:13:06 over 14:13:27 I lack the patience to write a book. I'll let Jeff 14:13:36 over 14:14:09 futhin: what do you think about FOR NEXT? is FOR NEXT more efficient & simple? what about the conflict with the NEXT word used in the inner interpreter in some forths? 14:14:36 um 14:14:41 if the question is redundant 14:14:55 just say so and maybe point to where we can find the answers 14:14:58 FOR NEXT is much simpler than DO LOOP, especially for hardware implementation. 14:15:10 amen 14:15:39 Implementation words such as the other NEXT should be invisible 14:16:00 --- join: shapr (~user@p-c2fbab9b.easy.inet.fi) joined #forth 14:16:26 FOR NEXT runs thru loops backwards. Which is perfectly fine, once you're used to it 14:16:29 over 14:16:31 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Remote closed the connection) 14:16:43 Chuck, have you looked at backtracking? Have you played games like that with the return stack? 14:16:58 --- join: antirez (~antirez@62.211.190.169) joined #forth 14:17:04 --- join: geqo (~geqo@as7-1-5.kp.g.bonet.se) joined #forth 14:17:05 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 14:17:13 Yes, return stack is a valuable tool 14:17:29 --- join: nothing (~nothing@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:17:36 --- join: dax (you@u212-239-165-10.adsl.pi.be) joined #forth 14:17:43 One use I made of it was to implement infix notation with precedence operators 14:17:49 Except that you can't count on it being a return stack in ANS... 14:17:57 --- join: Rico (Rico@node-c-1c6a.a2000.nl) joined #forth 14:17:58 --- part: dax left #forth 14:18:04 strike one against ans 14:18:17 On the other hand, I don't like CATCH THROW 14:18:39 Errors should be impossible. Or resolved immediately 14:19:13 over 14:19:18 --- join: hobu (~hobu@nwtn-elas-1-89-ip.dsl.iowatelecom.net) joined #forth 14:19:20 chipChuck: were you or are you aware of the POP-2 language, that in the late 1960s introduced a double-stack virtual machine with postfix syntax, on top of a successor of which now still exists poplog (a multilanguage system that supports pop-11, prolog, common lisp and ml) 14:19:52 *Fare: What do you think of high-level strongly-typed variants of forth, such as POP-11, HP RPL, Postscript? 14:19:55 --- join: SteveA (~steve@puffin.cat-box.net) joined #forth 14:20:00 Not that I recall 14:20:01 (two questions similar to each other..) 14:20:35 Typing is a crutch for poor programmers 14:20:39 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m188.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 14:20:52 It's an obstacle for good ones 14:21:21 heh, well said 14:21:34 Strong typing merely creates errors so that they can be detected 14:22:13 I have no objections to forth-like languages, or any languages 14:22:15 --- join: Howerd (Howerd@p08s04a02.client.global.net.uk) joined #forth 14:22:20 Just don't make me use them 14:22:25 over 14:23:02 In your ColorForth environment, you mention on your webpage that code is recompiled on the fly, as needed. Does this happen "in place" and retroactively? Consider your RDY word in your IDE driver example code. If we were to change it somehow, and have it recompiled, will that retroactively affect other words which utilize it? Thanks. 14:23:18 --- mode: MrReach set -o MrReach 14:24:02 No. Words must be defined before they're used 14:24:39 Original Forth, circe 1968, did provide retroactive redefinition 14:25:01 That means reinterpreting text at execution time. Far too expensive 14:25:34 But you can always recompile the application whenever you change a definition is uses 14:25:51 Compile time is really zero 14:25:52 over 14:25:55 "words must be defined before they are used" do you discourage the use of defered words ? 14:26:06 --- join: Al2 (Al@210-54-102-99.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 14:26:09 Yes 14:26:24 But there are some situations when you can't avoid them 14:26:38 over 14:27:16 sorry 14:27:18 Chuck: (about catch/throw)... You don't think that in large systems, it would be nice for higher-level routines to have the option to handle lower-level exceptional conditions? 14:27:30 * futhin is handling this stuff slowly heh 14:27:36 colorForth has several deferred words in the kernel. That's a flaw in the kernel design 14:28:04 That's a hard one 14:28:17 There shouldn't be errors 14:28:36 But if a server fails to respond, something must be done 14:28:48 Must the application anticipate all such problems 14:28:59 Or can the system somehow cope 14:29:18 --- quit: hobu ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)") 14:29:34 --- join: Amon-Re (~Unknown@D5E06615.kabel.telenet.be) joined #forth 14:29:42 What I do is to mix the low and high-level code into an integrated whole 14:29:43 --- join: Scraggles (~scraggly@p08.3c04.pm.dimcom.net) joined #forth 14:29:59 Modify the low-level code as necessary for the application 14:30:23 The notion of levels of code, as in communication protocols, is wrong 14:30:42 There needn't be so much code to make it necessary 14:30:44 over 14:30:52 --- part: Scraggles left #forth 14:30:55 Are there purely technological reasons why you dislike CATCH/THROW, versus philosophical reasons? 14:31:04 --- part: Amon-Re left #forth 14:31:40 No. It's a neat solution for the perceived problem 14:32:04 But when you mess with the return stack, you can create problems 14:32:22 Robust, reliable code is simple 14:32:22 over 14:32:43 *GilbertBSD: what axioms inspired the early design of forth? 14:33:29 The data stack came from the Burroughs 5500 14:33:31 --- join: svara (~svara@pD950B1F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 14:33:55 Once I learned to use the stack, everything else followed 14:34:11 The stack provides name-less temporary storage 14:34:30 When you have to invent names, imagination fails 14:34:48 Hence the endless hyphenated words of C 14:35:16 Likewise in my chip design, most signals are unnamed 14:35:35 Contrary to VHDL and the like that require them 14:35:51 over 14:36:12 Q: what is ur name convention for structure members/field? whats up w nested structures? 14:36:40 I don't do it that way 14:36:52 --- join: dudley (~dudley@adsl-63-202-181-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 14:37:16 Forth, Inc had data-base structures 14:37:41 --- quit: eihrul (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: eihrul_!lee@pool-151-201-23-238.pitt.east.verizon.net))) 14:37:42 The higher level names set default values 14:37:55 --- join: eihrul (lee@pool-151-201-23-238.pitt.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:38:00 That is, a file name set the current file 14:38:08 A record number set the current record 14:38:27 A field name accesses the current record in the current file 14:38:42 At no time did you need to concatenate the names 14:38:53 Though you needed to keep them distinct 14:39:02 I would add that as part of the MachineForth training I would cover the concept of using the auto-incrementing instructions as much as possible in such code. 14:39:03 over 14:39:32 how do u avoid name clashes between fieldnames in different structures? 14:39:38 --- join: Klaw (~anonymous@ip68-4-245-144.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 14:39:57 --- quit: quartz (Remote closed the connection) 14:39:59 We were designing the database 14:40:16 So the NAME field was in the same position in all files 14:40:32 If that's not possible, you need distinct names 14:40:53 But only in applications that must be resident simultaneously 14:41:04 --- join: TSCHAK (~test@martin.openminds.tv) joined #forth 14:41:06 That is, those that use multiple files 14:41:16 --- quit: Al1 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:41:32 When you recompile applications as needed, this is pretty much avoided 14:41:34 over 14:41:50 *futhin: "Now that you've come up with colorforth and experimented with new ways to code forth, have you discovered any useful things that can be applied to machineForth for a better machineForth?" 14:42:40 colorforth is a clearer description of machineforth for one thing. 14:42:53 New ideas always appear 14:42:57 --- join: _avlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-667.beedrill.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 14:43:04 --- quit: pavlovskii (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 14:43:19 --- part: miket2 left #forth 14:43:20 But colorForth makes it easy to do work arounds 14:43:41 For example, IF is a perennial problem 14:43:42 --- part: _avlovskii left #forth 14:43:50 Should it pop the stack? 14:44:07 Maybe yes, maybe no 14:44:30 And that's a hard change to mask 14:44:54 But, it's simpler to decode instructions if it doesn't 14:45:03 So that's how it is so far 14:45:10 over 14:45:36 --- join: wog (~car@h002078ca8395.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 14:46:01 --- join: misato (misato@staff.opn) joined #forth 14:46:08 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-667.beedrill.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 14:46:13 IF and DUP-IF ??? 14:46:22 (sorry i don't know if this question is in context...) 14:46:38 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@staff.opn) joined #forth 14:46:44 um should i go to next question? 14:46:53 Wait 14:46:57 ok 14:47:16 Having multiple words could help 14:47:24 --- part: misato left #forth 14:47:31 But it makes the language more complex, harder to learn 14:47:54 And doesn't address the underlying hardware issue 14:48:22 over. I could say more 14:48:51 do you think portability is important - or does forths ease/speed of development negate the need for it 14:49:18 Portability is not important 14:49:24 Portability is not possible 14:49:42 Real applications are closely coupled to hardware 14:49:52 ! 14:49:59 Change the platform and all the code changes 14:50:00 i was hoping you would say that :P 14:50:19 --- join: raorn (~raorn@195.16.125.235) joined #forth 14:50:23 If it didn't, you wouldn't have changed the platform 14:50:51 To abstract the problem from the hardware requires massive software like Windows 14:51:16 That's a permanent tax on all applications to save some one-time programming 14:51:39 Programmers should object to job-elimination concepts 14:52:04 Of course, jobs are actually multiplied to deal with the hyper-complex abstraction 14:52:21 And modern hardware has computers in the displays and disks 14:52:38 --- quit: dudley () 14:52:40 They've already made many interfaces protable 14:52:49 --- join: deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) joined #forth 14:53:04 How many layers of portability are needed? 14:53:05 over 14:53:10 ChipChuck: In another question, it was mentioned you are experimenting or otherwise dealing with something called "sourceless programming"... could you elaborate a bit? 14:53:16 Dealing with Windows is a lousy job, no matter what it pays :) 14:53:36 I spent several years writing sourceless code 14:53:51 This was my first version of OKAD, for chip design 14:54:24 By this I mean, editing the hex machine code into memory and saving to disk 14:55:04 If, as I expected, code could be reused the actual machine code would be managable 14:55:28 But it grew without limit, eventually becoming unmanagable 14:55:53 And there was another gotcha 14:56:30 I'd have numbers embedded in the code, without any documentation as to how they were computer 14:57:00 colorForth embeds expressions and compiles the result as a literal 14:57:27 But the trace of what that number means, remains 14:57:28 over 14:57:30 Do you have romantic notions of fixing the internet and everything, bringing simplicity to the masses? What would it be like? 14:57:44 Of course 14:58:12 I see a Forth Markup Language supplementing HTML 14:58:32 That defines a subnet of users that can read it 14:59:00 FML is like colorForth - words with tags 14:59:02 iTV in colorforth 14:59:27 More compact, more efficient, more flexible 14:59:37 what about communication protocols (IP, TCP, etc..)? 14:59:38 Eliminates the need for Java 15:00:02 TCP/IP can't be changed 15:00:11 But it can be lived with 15:00:18 --- quit: bernd ("BitchX has bite! (Just ask Mike Tyson!)") 15:00:40 over 15:01:06 *goshawk`: Do you see your ideas gaining more acceptance and being more fully exploited in your lifetime? If not, what is stopping that from becoming a reality? 15:01:14 also 15:01:16 question for jeff 15:01:17 *goshawk`: Do you see your ideas gaining more acceptance and being more fully exploited in your lifetime? If not, what is stopping that from becoming a reality? 15:01:18 oops 15:01:24 Jeff: MachineForth -training-? please elaborate? 15:01:59 my ideas are not good enough yet? 15:02:13 Ideas are memes. They evolve unpredictably 15:02:45 Memes insinuate themselves untraceably 15:02:49 thefox: sorry, question was Jeff: MachineForth -training-? please elaborate? 15:03:16 My ideas have influence, probably as much as they deserve 15:03:44 Those that achieve prominance are the result of fads 15:04:02 ah, I trained new programmers at iTV in MachineForth. I got pretty good at it. Not all the programmers were interested, some were hired to write ANS only and were experts in the way they did it. 15:04:19 Consider the family of languages Fortran, Algol, PLI, Pascal, C 15:04:58 They're all the same. The currently popular one is random choice 15:05:02 I will make a complete series of videos on machineforth at my website. I did get a start at it. over 15:05:25 No. I don't expect to become accepted 15:05:34 --- join: joseph (user@ip68-3-237-161.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 15:05:47 I'll just keep exploring 15:05:49 over 15:05:52 --- join: water (water@c207-202-221-160.sea1.cablespeed.com) joined #forth 15:05:59 Do you think forth should be used as a "general purpose language", for everyday software, or does it belong among embedded devices and other specialised systems? 15:06:23 --- part: M-bitter left #forth 15:06:50 Forth is the best language for all purposes 15:07:04 Because it mimics natural language 15:07:15 :) 15:07:20 Defining new words in terms of old ones 15:07:26 --- part: joseph left #forth 15:07:30 --- join: josephMoore (user@ip68-3-237-161.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 15:07:40 Hiding information on the stacks 15:08:04 Makes it easy for normal humans to customize their computer 15:08:21 Will it happen? 15:08:42 Give me $100M and I'll compete with Gates 15:08:49 over 15:08:51 if i had it i would :) 15:09:04 --- part: raorn left #forth 15:09:13 Do you think forth should be used as a "general purpose language", for everyday software, or does it belong among embedded devices and other specialised systems? 15:09:19 oops 15:09:24 i suck at cut'n'pasting 15:09:30 *goshawk`: Do you believe the open source "movement" had any negative impacts on the acceptance and/or practice of Forth? 15:10:03 * chipChuck thinking 15:10:33 Forth was open source before open source became popular 15:11:12 I don't see a negative impact 15:11:27 any posative impact? 15:11:39 I see a decrease in the writing of software 15:11:59 And an increase in attention paid to integrating software 15:12:13 bad news.. 15:12:36 DOD boasts about how much code can be ported from the F22 to the F35 15:12:53 Maybe 50% of 6M 15:13:14 So nobody writes from scratch 15:13:22 Not even Linux drivers 15:13:48 Forth is the last bastion of DIY 15:14:08 Open source hasn't hurt or helped that 15:14:09 over 15:14:11 Chuck: Gates is presently competing with Stallman and Torvalds... if you were at that level, is it Gates that you would be competing with? Do you regret that forth came out into open source? 15:14:53 I wouldn't compete on a PC platform 15:15:19 With the 25x, it's a whole new ballgame 15:15:47 No, I think Forth source is a goldmine 15:16:02 Ideas should not be secret 15:16:08 Should not be patentable 15:16:36 The more people engaged, the better the result 15:16:48 over 15:16:59 how do you feel about automated production of software (computer driven) and its possible role in replacing future human development thereby replacing the need for language based development 15:17:35 Computers that program themselves have been a dream for decades 15:17:52 It hasn't happened yet. Not even a little 15:18:23 Even if they do, it takes a human to have the insight to change the rules 15:18:55 Without true AI, I see no prospect 15:19:22 And even with AI, there has to be a language to express the problem and solution 15:19:43 Not in my lifetime 15:19:44 over 15:20:03 --- join: FredrikH (~fredrik@h49n1fls34o1112.telia.com) joined #forth 15:20:10 Mr. Moore, i appreciate all this.. this interview seems to be able to go on for 2 more hours, easily.. 15:20:18 i'm not quite sure what your time frame is.. 15:20:23 I'm ok 15:20:26 also, if you want to take any breaks, let me know.. 15:20:35 * chipChuck getting a coke 15:20:42 ok, great .. next question i guess 15:20:52 ChipChuck - you mentioned Forth Markup Language (FML). My practice shows that Forth does not make a good language for batch programming (unless you manage to add an interactive window). What sort of interactivity (if any) do you propose for FML? 15:21:42 --- part: josephMoore left #forth 15:21:58 * chipChuck back 15:22:30 wb 15:22:39 heh, i asked the question.. we're all patient :) 15:22:42 --- join: quartz (~k@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 15:23:02 FML, like colorForth, would let the used type (steer) while processing in the background 15:23:45 Batch programming is an obsolete concept? 15:24:11 Computers are so fast, anything should happen instantly 15:24:20 But, searching the web 15:25:25 Don't know. Wait and see. But always something can be done 15:25:28 over 15:26:18 Mister Moore: What are your further plans for an integrated forth hardware solution? Would you be interested, money being no concern, to realize such plans? 15:26:38 Absolutely 15:26:56 Forth on a Forthchip is an unbeatable combination 15:27:20 Trouble is, computers are so fast already that C is viable 15:27:21 twice the fun 15:27:50 Yet critics claim problems that cannot be addressed 15:28:03 Consider weather forcasting 15:28:21 At some point, chaos limits predictions 15:28:39 Faster supercomputers are unhelpful 15:29:47 Perhaps UWB is fertile ground for elaborate processing 15:29:50 over 15:30:03 have you ever programmed self mutatable or self replicating system components or even user level applications using forth 15:30:11 and if so does it offer any advantage over using assembly 15:30:48 OKAD, in sourceless code, was self-modifying 15:30:51 --- quit: tcn ("going to play some fiddle!") 15:31:42 I'd like to optimize the c18 computer, at a layout level 15:32:01 That would require mutating code 15:32:19 colorForth is intended to facilitate that 15:32:55 For example, storing (and displaying) variables in source code means they can easily be changed 15:33:07 --- quit: pavlovskii (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 15:33:19 But no, I've not done anything significant 15:33:20 over 15:33:27 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-1001.barrelled.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 15:33:37 steering it back to FML.. 15:33:39 Will FML have programmable tag sets like XML? 15:33:46 What work has been done on FML? Is it a project that is being programmed? 15:34:06 Absolutely. Programmable tags 15:34:10 *tcn* side note: you could write in FML and translate to HTML until everyone's using FML 15:34:28 As in Forth, tags defined in terms of previously defined tags 15:34:43 Something I sorely miss in HTML 15:34:58 FML is vaporware, from my perspective 15:35:27 What it needs is several people who use it to communicate and thereby evolve it 15:35:39 over 15:36:00 One more comment 15:36:35 sorry? you mean one more question? 15:36:35 An FML tag has a distinct color. It is a word that is executed by the editor 15:36:41 er, nevermind 15:37:07 Where can we participate in or see some FML activity? 15:37:09 And ignored by the compiler? 15:37:52 So it takes advantage of the run/compile/edit distinction 15:38:22 FML will be on the internet when its time comes. Nothing yet 15:38:26 over 15:38:37 FML has been mentioned numerous times in this discussion, but yet, no examples of what it'd look like or its structure has been given. Is this iTV proprietary information? If not, can an example be posted? The idea of Forth as a markup language intrigues me much. Thanks. 15:39:31 iTv may have precursed the idea, but not really 15:39:56 When I get TCP and PPP coded, I'll work on a browser 15:40:18 That browser will translate HTML into FML 15:40:43 colorForth will interpret the FML to display pages 15:41:18 When FML is adequate, it can be posted directly and avoid translation 15:41:58 For example, the purple word P could mean the HTML tag

15:42:17 And so forth 15:42:26 Simple translation 15:42:38 Perhaps 2x compression from Huffman coding 15:43:00 And elimination of those interminable s 15:43:10 And the resulting spelling errors 15:43:11 over 15:43:28 *Howerd* Chuck: Is there any difference between FML and a remotely executed Forth program? 15:43:57 * chipChuck thinking 15:44:25 FML would be a restricted subset for security 15:44:50 But it's not remotely executed 15:45:03 You've downloaded the source and executed it locally 15:45:47 One advantage of a colorForth-enabled web would be ease of sharing code 15:45:52 *Howerd* Chuck: perhaps I'm thinking of F-ASP :) 15:45:57 It could be the basis for a parallelism on the net. 15:46:00 clitnt side instead of server side ? (eek)! 15:46:46 Sorry, don't recognize F-ASP, so I missed the joke 15:46:57 over 15:47:12 What work has been done on FML? Is it a project that is being programmed? 15:47:21 I am interested in a programmable tag set that would allow virtual interaction from the user's perspective, would FML have that interactive ability that would replace CGI scripting? 15:47:31 i think we'll get off the FML subject after these... 15:47:36 got many more questions :) 15:47:36 I started it with the first colorForth 15:47:52 Then abandoned it to work on OKAD II 15:48:10 --- join: AlonzoTG (alangrimes@66-44-58-244.s244.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com) joined #forth 15:48:15 It's only interesting with the web 15:48:16 over 15:48:59 --- quit: bob4th (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:49:03 are there concepts in other programming languages that you admire or is forth the one true language? 15:49:24 are you familiar with high-level functional programming languages such as lisp, ml, haskell, pop-11, clean ? with logic programming languages such as prolog, mercury, oz? 15:49:32 (2 similar questions i think..) 15:49:37 Yes, FML should allow virtual interaction 15:50:19 Yes, I'm familiar with LISP, Prolog. Not the others 15:50:35 When I was developing Forth, I knew all languages 15:50:50 With Forth, I've neglected them 15:51:09 However, show me an idea (like Prolog) and I'll implement it in Forth 15:51:42 But don't suggest processing of text. That's an exhausted field 15:52:00 LISP was one of the inspiration for Forth 15:52:19 The notion that you could compute something without storing anything 15:52:48 I don't see new ideas in the new languages 15:52:51 over 15:53:34 Your hardware and software ventures are decidedly "out of the box". Have they been profitable enough to live comfortably with? (I guess, in other words, how big is the market?) 15:54:05 They've not been profitable 15:54:11 But they've met expenses 15:54:54 iTv was the best organized attempt at profitability 15:55:16 At one time, I was worth $20M (paper) 15:55:35 --- join: gbvb (~user@h00104b020ddb.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 15:55:37 But it didn't work out 15:55:42 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-174.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 15:55:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 15:55:51 --- quit: gbvb ("ERC v2.91 $Revision: 1.248 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 15:55:51 hiya all 15:56:02 * TheBlueWizard blinks in surprise at the full house here! 15:56:07 shh thebluewizard 15:56:08 I wouldn't recommend me as a role model 15:56:09 over 15:56:10 --- join: cmarqu (~colin@pD951880A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:56:23 Q: if text processing is so exhausted could u tell us some pointers to some -say- text replacement library understanding regexp-s implemented in forth? 15:57:21 don't understand 15:57:33 oks orry 15:57:48 --- quit: Al2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:57:59 *water* Mr. Moore: have you looked at the functional language Joy that is purely functional but works like a Forth, using word substitution and list-based processing? what do you think joy could incorporate from forth or vice versa? 15:58:22 I glanced at Joy 15:58:56 Couldn't really comment 15:59:15 Many macro languages substitute text and interpret it 15:59:34 That isn't the way Forth macros work 15:59:50 They actually do the action, rather than postpone it 15:59:58 --- join: vomjom (~vomjom@cc1-24.217.97.201.charter-stl.com) joined #forth 16:00:14 *water* what about the fact that it works nice and algebraically? 16:00:25 I see no advantage to manipulating the text instead of getting on with the job 16:00:44 By algebraically, you mean infix? 16:00:48 yes i think so 16:00:58 That just means they did it the hard way 16:01:16 er 16:01:17 Forth can, and has, implemented infix. Many times 16:01:24 It's a dead end 16:01:34 algebraically wasn't meant as infix.. 16:01:43 joy has lists as code closures and can do things with the stack based on them 16:01:47 --- join: emu (mrd@EMU.RES.CMU.EDU) joined #forth 16:02:02 Ok. Out of my depth 16:02:15 over 16:02:28 what forths other than your own have you used? 16:02:48 There was one 16:03:01 What preceeded Win32? 16:03:04 fpc 16:03:10 Right 16:03:17 tom zimmer - isforth is loosly based on fpc 16:03:20 loosly 16:03:26 It was very frustrating. I kept wanting to change things 16:03:36 But I hadn't a Forth for the PC 16:03:48 Now, with colorForth, I feel no urge 16:03:49 chipChuck: i440r would like you to check out his forth at http://isforth.clss.net ;) 16:03:58 lol 16:04:25 Noted 16:04:36 over 16:04:42 ok, a side question 16:05:22 would you consider being a semi regular visitor to the channel, on an informal basis? :) 16:05:29 or doing this event in the future? 16:05:37 people are wondering :) 16:06:12 informal.. unannounced and unplanned 16:06:14 Sure. Could do it again. Won't you run out of questions? 16:06:24 not running out of questions at the moment 16:06:39 never :) 16:07:05 I'd like more opinions from you-all 16:07:25 then maybe we should set mode -m on the channel ? 16:07:48 a non chaotic (i hope) free for all ? 16:07:51 i have quite a handful of questions still to be asked, but that could be dealt with another time.. 16:08:23 up to you if you want to continue this way for a bit more? 16:08:51 For a little while. The sun's coming onto my screen 16:08:58 i was hoping to finish things up with a -m and everybody being able to talk.. 16:09:30 go 16:09:32 goshawk`: what inspired you to focus on hardware, and what background did you have up until that point that allowed him to make that move? 16:09:51 I considered software a solved problem 16:10:07 All my trouble with read-time systems were with the hardware 16:10:22 No background. Just determination 16:10:24 over 16:10:30 When designing the first x21 processor (i21??), by what process did you arrive at the initial 27 opcodes for the machine? Software simulations and statistical profiling? 16:10:54 Seat of pants 16:11:09 Paring down the Forth primitives till I had a managable set 16:11:32 My guesses corresponded well with others profiling 16:11:33 over 16:11:50 What is the status of Chuck & Jeff's work on parrallel processing? 16:12:05 The 25x is unfunded 16:12:24 I could fund a prototype, but without funding, where's the market 16:12:36 over 16:13:25 colorForth interests me greatly -- one thing which occurs to me about it is that because you change the editor rather than the language when you add new syntax, it would be reasonable to extend the editor _greatly_ when you add new syntax, for example by creating a table widget to handle a state machine definition (q.v. Noble's FSM definition words). Would you consider that a proper use? 16:14:05 Yes 16:14:30 The ability to change the tag table leads to many interesting applications 16:14:44 I only hope that 16 tags is enough 16:14:56 --- quit: ChrisJ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:15:00 over 16:15:12 *mlg* chipchuck - as to parallel processing, does something already work? What approach do you use to distribute computation across processes? 16:15:47 I would distribute functionally 16:16:07 For example, one processor would accept seial input 16:16:16 Another would process PPP 16:16:26 Another would process IP 16:16:36 Another would process TCP 16:16:45 Someone would eventually do the application 16:16:47 over 16:17:19 *BigBoyToddy* The 25x is a great design from what I can tell, if it could be funded via selling kits, marketing it to end users, what would the numbers be to get it into production? 16:17:49 --- join: phusnikn (phusnikn@Star.Wars.Episode.II.DVD.SCREENER.logit.ws) joined #forth 16:17:53 VCs rightly demand a marketing plan 16:18:06 --- part: phusnikn left #forth 16:18:21 My last guess was $200K for 2 prototype runs over 9 months 16:18:36 Then $100K for production 16:19:02 Add to that, kit design and production, programming, documentation\ 16:19:22 Marketing, support. It's not cheap 16:19:39 Requires a commitment no one has made 16:19:46 over 16:20:13 you said you wanted opinions.. have any questions to ask us? :) 16:20:29 What's the future of Forth? 16:20:37 hm 16:20:43 maybe we should come back to that later heh 16:20:45 sorry 16:20:50 when everyone is -m 16:21:13 "Thanks, I'll make the Ethernet/UDP code available at next website update." (--Chuck Moore, from the ColorForth mailing list on Apr. 14) Q: Could you briefly describe how the Ethernet/UDP code is coming along? 16:21:20 How many of you are using Forth? 16:21:21 we're running out of questions now 16:21:36 * I440r uses forth 16:21:39 so i think the closing will be soon.. 16:21:49 ok 16:21:49 How can we tabulate opinions? 16:21:51 well. im writing one for linux 16:22:02 one last question 16:22:05 and then we'll go to 16:22:10 * chipChuck sees sun coming round 16:22:28 the "what's the future of forth?" question 16:22:38 ChipChuck - do you have any suggestions for new directions to explore in computing? 16:23:13 * futhin apologizes to all profusely if he is handling this poorly.. 16:23:22 Yes, but that's a long answer 16:23:30 You're doing great 16:24:09 --- join: hurst (~gnhurst@ip68-10-70-29.hr.hr.cox.net) joined #forth 16:24:10 I'm exploring parallel computing 16:24:37 With very small. very fast computers 16:24:58 That's 64 word of ROM, 128 words of RAM, 2400 Mips 16:25:05 --- quit: wtanksley (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:25:14 They can't do much, but can do it very fast 16:25:21 are you giving each processor specific types of task or does the next instruction/task go to the first available processor ? 16:25:35 With this, I hope to explore some hard problems 16:25:43 More next time 16:26:27 Processor tasks are programmer assigned 16:26:39 Partly dependent on unique processor capabilities 16:27:00 --- quit: WFR () 16:27:03 There are 25 independent instruction streams 16:27:24 --- join: WFR (WFR@user-33qtmfa.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth 16:27:28 63,000 Mips total, programmable 16:27:35 wow 16:27:36 Nice programming problem 16:27:48 when you have that on a pc based machine ill be a beta tester for you :) 16:27:49 500 mW 16:28:09 I can simulate a few of them 16:28:10 over 16:28:28 i've got 5 to 10 more questions.. all of them good 16:28:37 it's ok to continue? 16:28:56 It's getting too bright 16:29:07 Let's schedule a repeat 16:29:17 Guess that's reprise 16:29:17 ok then 16:29:37 so when are you thinking of repeating this event? 16:30:15 * chipChuck thinking 16:30:42 My wife says the 18th is good 16:31:02 okay then 16:31:25 may I suggest that chipChuck buy some blinds for his window? 16:31:33 Enjoyed talking to you 16:31:42 yes, let's continue next time 16:31:48 and we'll make it more open-forum 16:31:52 and you can ask us 16:31:56 questions 16:32:11 --- quit: chipChuck ("ok to all") 16:32:21 --- mode: futhin set -m 16:32:23 lol 16:32:26 :) 16:32:26 lol 16:32:30 left a little fast 16:32:41 well, i would have liked to at least thank him for his patience here 16:32:44 he was being watched. 16:32:50 nah, guyz, how did u like it? 16:32:51 It's black outside here...he should move to a country where it's night this time of the day 16:32:53 Well, when you start poking fun at his window or his blinds, he probably got a tiny tad bit annoyed. :) 16:33:00 It was groovy, onetom ;) 16:33:02 kc5tja: yeah heheh 16:33:17 he was the one complaining 16:33:17 MrReach: You scared him away! 16:33:20 ;D 16:33:20 yes, he shoudl irc at night time, like me 3 am, so sunlight doenstbother.. for 10 hours at least :) 16:33:21 well if the sun was shining on his monitor 16:33:22 --- part: jeffp left #forth 16:33:23 hey, how many of u r still really here? hands up! 16:33:23 i got a question - can i have a job ? 16:33:25 :) 16:33:31 * shapr is barely awake 16:33:32 if the sun was shining on the monitor, it would be pretty hard to see 16:33:40 especially since he is legally blind as i heard 16:33:45 the sun is probably either directly in his eyes or right on his screen, making it impossible to read 16:33:54 Its 00:24 here in UK... must get some sleep... 16:33:57 * juu 's leg is up 16:34:06 pleasant dreams, Howerd 16:34:06 I want some 25x chips on a PCI board 16:34:13 You live still in Saturday, do you? 16:34:13 Ta... 16:34:13 well guys, i guess it'll be repeated on the 18th.. 2 weeks from now 16:34:17 that would be cool 16:34:19 i think that went BRILLIANTLY myself :) 16:34:20 * kc5tja wouldn't mind having 25 25x chips on a PCI card.. :) 16:34:23 --- part: emu left #forth 16:34:25 futhin: what time? 16:34:31 Yes. V good 16:34:32 probably same 16:34:33 yes, that was fun 16:34:33 I'd be happy with even one 25x chip 16:34:33 futhin: cool...and good job moderating! 16:34:36 and what are the sun/up sun/down conditions? 16:34:39 i'll email chuck 16:34:39 heheh, what was the same time ? :) 16:34:43 That is when the SV Fig meeting is 16:34:48 --- join: Pahan (blah@syr-24-24-17-204.twcny.rr.com) joined #forth 16:35:00 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:35:00 juu: 2pm pacific time maybe 16:35:01 I'd like to ask the (pretty old) people in here about what they think of forth's popularity... Nobody knows of chuck moore outsode #forth, and most people puke at forth... How should we get people to use forth? :-) 16:35:10 --- quit: geqo ("JE SUIS UNE HALLUCINATION! - http://geqo.wox.org/genk/") 16:35:16 Chuck's opinion is that forth is very general purpose... 16:35:20 thanks all for your patient 16:35:24 thanks all for your patience 16:35:24 So, why isn't it very used? 16:35:29 GilbertBSD: lollllll 16:35:30 next time, i hope it'll go even better 16:35:32 thefox: nice to have you join us 16:35:33 You can't. I've tried. people either love Forth or hate it... 16:35:35 it'll be more open forum 16:35:39 Hehe 16:35:41 futhin: great event. 16:35:44 would someone post on a web page the entire transcript so others can read it? 16:35:52 BigBoyToddy: its done 16:35:53 Hm 16:35:54 clog has it. 16:35:56 rob_ert: this seems like the lisp problem 16:35:58 thefox: what does aikido teaches you about forth, and conversely? 16:36:00 BigBoyToddy this is logged to webpage already 16:36:09 I will surely upload this log to my page =) 16:36:09 lemme get the url 16:36:18 excellent! 16:36:18 BigBoyToddy: type /whois on clog for info 16:36:18 Fare: As an aikidoka myself, I can say this much: patience. :D 16:36:25 mrreach thefox has agreed to put the logs on his site too 16:36:25 bigboytoddy: yes. the log will be given to jeff fox, and hopefully he'll put it up on ultratechnology.com 16:36:37 im going to extract all the cruft from the logs first tho 16:36:38 --- quit: WFR () 16:36:45 I would leave it just as it is. 16:36:52 That way folks know who came and went when. 16:37:03 Anyone knows WFR? 16:37:03 Howerd: Perlmutter, by any chance? 16:37:05 rob_ert: prove the world that forth is so general! code! code! & code! as lenin would say :) 16:37:07 He CTCP flooded me.... 16:37:10 it will be left as it is but jeff fox has a site were it might be SEEN!!! 16:37:17 onetom: Lenin didn't know forth :} 16:37:18 --- join: dash (washort@d140.narrowgate.net) joined #forth 16:37:19 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ ... that is the index of logs 16:37:22 I do wish that people non-essential to the discussion wouldn't chime in 16:37:23 WFR flooded you? 16:37:25 --- part: eihrul left #forth 16:37:30 BigBoyToddy: Yeah... 16:37:40 I think only the invited part(y/ies) and the moderator should speak in a closed-forum 16:37:41 goshawk`: it was moderated. 16:37:49 rob_ert: he did?? that was Bill Raggsdale, he headed the Forth Implementation Team 16:37:49 http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html <- this seems very interesting, about programming languages popularity 16:37:53 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.04 this is the log for today 16:37:57 rob_ert: who flooded you? 16:37:57 gilbert: there were quite a few people still making comments 16:38:18 FredrikH: WFR 16:38:22 --- part: dash left #forth 16:38:26 erm ... that would be me ... sorry 16:38:38 you flooded rob_ert? 16:38:38 rob_ert: er, who is WFR? 16:38:39 --- part: cmarqu left #forth 16:38:56 futhin: you did a great job with the interview. 16:39:03 here here, I agree 16:39:05 futhin: yah, good job 16:39:07 thanks 16:39:13 Who is Chuck Moore anyway? 16:39:16 mrr: there was more than one person doing it 16:39:17 FredrikH, WFR is Bill Ragsdale 16:39:18 Pahan :) 16:39:21 mrr: but thanks =) 16:39:22 Pahan: he is GOD! 16:39:22 Pahan: he invented forth 16:39:28 Pahan: he invented LIFE! 16:39:28 Pahan: inventopr of forth 16:39:30 * Pahan rolls eyes. 16:39:30 LOL 16:39:33 What's Forth? 16:39:34 it was he who said "Let there be forth, and there was forth" 16:39:34 yeah...good job, futhin 16:39:41 Pahan: gets slapped in the head by a fish, big and wet. 16:39:42 heh, a computer language 16:39:44 --- quit: quartz ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 16:39:46 * juu suggests applause for futhin ! 16:39:49 clap clap clap 16:39:53 clap clap clap 16:39:54 * Pahan sighs. 16:39:55 bravo 16:39:59 * MrReach applaudes futhin 16:40:00 pahan the ONLY computer language worth using :) 16:40:00 bunch of seals here. 16:40:03 other than asm :) 16:40:11 and bye... 16:40:13 yes. futhin - job well done 16:40:15 --- quit: Howerd ("Leaving") 16:40:16 * futhin thanks everyone 16:40:19 Despite the occasional over-entheusiastic support, I think this event was a resounding success. 16:40:21 Have any of you used forth for web apps? 16:40:26 Anywho, please put the URL up as part of the MOTD on this forum, thanks! 16:40:28 in replacement of ASP or PHP 16:40:34 Klaw: I haven't but the idea intrigues me. 16:40:37 I have about 3-4 people who couldn't make it that want to read it. 16:40:48 --- part: pavlovskii left #forth 16:40:53 I've done ~5 years of web scripting.. forth is the most attractive language i've seen 16:40:58 Klaw: it may be interesting at least about performances 16:41:03 Klaw: I used gforth w/ apache for server scripting for a while 16:41:14 MrReach: cgi-bin? 16:41:19 yeah, cgi 16:41:22 Klaw: some of us have done 20+ years of programming, scripting, you name it, and FORTH is the funnest and most interesting language/system we have ever seen. 16:41:23 dropped it in favor of a web-server written in pure TCL 16:41:24 is there something like apache's mod_forth? 16:41:38 Fare: yes 16:41:45 the client side execution of forth in the browser - i would like to know a bit more about that 16:42:01 MrReach: TCL is very far from forth :) I like both in some way 16:42:01 Has anyone done a FORTH with Java, jforth maybe? 16:42:01 ill be writing a web browser in isforth when the sockets code is ready 16:42:10 antirez: I haven't found one 16:42:13 hey.. what are the most important reasons you use forth? 16:42:15 I440r: Cool! 16:42:21 pahan, otkuda ty zdes' vzyalsya? 16:42:23 and what better to interpret FORTH web pages than a FORTH web browser 16:42:31 BigBoyToddy: yes, there's even one that loads in a web-page and runs in a java window 16:42:37 mlg: Priehal. 16:42:39 MrReach, excellent. 16:42:43 I440r: Made up your mind about wether or not to make the socket code public? 16:42:44 antirez: are you the guy that wrote hping2? =] 16:42:45 tho i tend to dislike client side it does save processing power at the server 16:42:49 I think, I hate java :( 16:43:00 Well, thanks to all, this was a great experience, I'm a new man. 16:43:00 Pahan: it's a language which is translated into an internal form (usually), it exposes a stack to the programmer in a very direct way (used for parameters) 16:43:07 robert i MIGHT make it available for NON commercial use but its not ready for releas yet 16:43:08 --- quit: Fare ("3053") 16:43:11 jim: Oh. 16:43:11 nothing: yes, that was why I looked at forth the first time, it seems a good idea for scripting 16:43:11 BigBoyToddy: You think, therefore you hate Java? ;D 16:43:21 i can get my bot to connect with it but thats about it so far :) 16:43:22 --- part: shapr left #forth 16:43:22 ah, cool 16:43:23 kc5tja: yep. 16:43:27 --- mode: I440r set +o Forth 16:43:45 BigBoyToddy: i vaguely remember your nick from somehwere, did you sell or buy NeXTStep CD's on ebay? 16:43:47 forth <--- isforth running my sockets code and irc bot code 16:43:55 --- quit: FredrikH ("Client Exiting") 16:43:57 antirez: with DHTML in IE, you could actually alter a colorForth script right from the browser.. 16:44:09 I440r: How complex is really that socket code, compared to the rest? Why is it so special? 16:44:29 not complex 16:44:35 just stick a script in front to translate the html it generates into a xml data that something processes.. it'd be a nice tool. 16:44:50 but to write it i had to reverse engineer c code to figure out the syscalls 16:44:53 nothing: what a great name you have! 16:44:54 man 2 sucks :) 16:44:59 well, that could have gone better...but overall not so bad 16:45:01 w/c 16:45:11 I440r: lol... I found a page in 5 minutes with those calls ;) 16:45:14 reverse engineering nslookup is going to be a bitch too 16:45:14 BigBoyToddy: hah 16:45:17 I440r: And I suck at googleing 16:45:23 Pahan: forth has about 100 operations, many of them involve the stack in some way, and you can write and name new operations in terms of existing ones 16:45:39 Klaw: This is even too advanced for me :) 16:45:54 jim: Okay. 16:45:55 gforth: : t ." Hello World!" ; t 16:45:56 jim: I beg to differ, FORTH has 51 or so operators, not 100s, figFORTH has 100s and 79/83/94 have many also. 16:45:57 but its an absolute must for the sockets code to bbe able to refer to URL's as well as IP's 16:45:59 MrReach: Hello World! 16:46:05 rigth now IP's are the only option :) 16:46:07 antirez: hehe. The DHTML component is a little IE Thang, think of a textarea that has a basic html editor 16:46:10 wysiwyg 16:46:29 BigBoyToddy: well, that is the era from which I came :) 16:46:43 err, not 94 :) 16:46:55 --- part: Pahan left #forth 16:46:56 I440r: Hehe...is there really no documentation? 16:47:00 Klaw: ah I understand. I'm curious about a server side way to use the full-speed of forth 16:47:02 * juu have seen _marching ants_ algorithm in practise. Ants were marching on screen :D 16:47:03 gforth: : t 3 0 do i . loop ; t 16:47:08 MrReach: 0 1 2 16:47:25 it seems even viable for select-based servers to run multiple scripts with an unique process 16:47:34 antirez: Yes 16:47:39 is gforth a botty? :) 16:47:43 there is. but its not easy to find or decypher :) 16:47:48 Heh 16:47:58 um 16:48:00 Is it easy to disassemble glibc then? =) 16:48:00 read the source code? 16:48:02 yes, gforth is a bot that interprets forth code and returns the output 16:48:16 gforth: t 16:48:20 antirez: once you have a few servers running forth you can setup a client/server situation and create a killer p2p app too. 16:48:20 jim: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:48:21 jim: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 16:48:21 jim: t 16:48:21 jim: ^ 16:48:21 jim: Backtrace: 16:48:23 jim: $4011D188 throw 16:48:25 jim: $401271E8 no.extensions 16:48:26 nothing: well, look through the Linux kernel source :) 16:48:39 nothing: it's not THAT small and easy to find things in 16:48:39 it forgot t :P 16:48:51 especially if you're as brain-dead as I am 16:48:55 defs don't last between lines, process is killed after some period of seconds, output is limited to 5 lines 16:49:03 gforth: .( l;kjjkl;dsfgjkl;'ghjkl'kjsf;lfkl;klkjl;kjl;kjl;kj;lkj;lkjl;kjl;kjl;kjl;kj;ldsdgshsfkngb['tjh's;hlkdf;lk) 16:49:06 my Forth bot is going to allow people to write forth definitions online etc 16:49:08 mlg: l;kjjkl;dsfgjkl;'ghjkl'kjsf;lfkl;klkjl;kjl;kjl;kj;lkj;lkjl;kjl;kjl;kjl;kj;ldsdgshsfkngb['tjh's;hlkdf;lk 16:49:16 not sure how im going to restrict what they can and cannot do tho 16:49:25 wouldnt waht then making a reboot syscall or anything :) 16:49:46 ziplock 16:49:50 100000000 0 do 0 i ! loop 16:49:56 heh, the last thing we need is a progammable bot that could be used to flood this or other channels 16:50:03 haha 16:50:08 Good idea, MrReach ;) 16:50:12 --- part: water left #forth 16:50:15 I440r: it's hard to restrict (like TCL safe-mode), better don't bind at all for good security ;) 16:50:15 --- quit: John_Peters (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:50:32 kn 16:50:36 gforth: who are you? 16:50:41 mlg: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:50:41 Hehe 16:50:42 mlg: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 16:50:42 mlg: who are you? 16:50:42 mlg: ^^^ 16:50:42 mlg: Backtrace: 16:50:42 anti i can give each "registered" user their own contexst and restrict what words tehy can reference 16:50:47 gforth: ." I am a bot." 16:50:47 mlg: gforth is a bot. 16:50:53 bah 16:50:54 mlg: its my bot 16:51:01 gforth: : a ." I am a bot." ; a 16:51:12 using vocabularies etc 16:51:16 Hmm 16:51:20 which i just got working in isforth ;) 16:51:21 lol 16:51:35 I440r security > you can allow users only print n amount of lines on irc 16:51:42 are your vocabs sealed? 16:51:44 I440r: yep but you should be sure that there isn't a way to escape this using other words. forth is quite low-level in some way 16:51:51 jim they can be 16:51:51 --- part: AlonzoTG left #forth 16:51:52 I was just making a sort of turing test. 16:51:52 --- part: TSCHAK left #forth 16:51:52 I440r and also yuo might need some preinterpretation in input 16:51:59 i can seal iin ONE or multiple vocabularies 16:52:01 --- nick: MrReach -> MrNap 16:52:51 onetom: what will happen if gforth breaks? May I break it? 16:53:14 ahh, in forth-83, there was this vocabulary stack and all vocabs were sealed... 16:53:24 rob_ert: I am a bot. 16:53:27 rob_ert: I am a bot. 16:53:41 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 16:53:42 I go, thanks to all for the good time 16:53:43 mlg: sure 16:53:49 --- part: antirez left #forth 16:53:51 mlg: everything is brokable :) 16:54:13 jim its called context :) 16:54:15 rob_ert: sorry, the forth server process has hanged. idont know why :/ 16:54:22 BigBoyToddy: in answer to your earlier question... 16:54:23 isforth uses a context stack but dispenses with the word "also" 16:54:25 yukk 16:54:47 * juu is developing programming languages (also :) 16:54:51 BigBoyToddy: yes, it's GPL 16:54:54 what do you think pseudonymish ones? 16:55:04 ah those which look much like normal writings 16:55:07 isforth is NON VIRAL gpl 16:55:24 what does that mean? :) 16:55:26 gforth: DEFER x DEFER y ' y IS x ' x IS y see x :,( 16:55:26 I440r: bsd style? 16:55:29 mlg: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:55:29 mlg: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Invalid memory address 16:55:29 mlg: DEFER x DEFER y ' y IS x ' x IS y see x :,( 16:55:29 mlg: ^ 16:55:29 mlg: Backtrace: 16:55:36 I440r: out of curiosity, which assembler did you pick as a starting pint to expand on? 16:55:49 tbw none yet 16:55:58 gilbertbsd "also" is a stupid word 16:56:09 forth also assembler also forth also assembler also 16:56:24 also essentially was vocabularydup 16:56:24 almost guaranteed to search BOTH vocabularies twice 16:56:36 --- part: vomjom left #forth 16:56:41 I440r: According to ANSI rules, IS guaranteed to search twice. 16:56:46 aaronl: hi 16:56:48 i440 also IS a stupid word, but it is COMMON 16:57:02 in isforth if you reference a vocabulary it either gets added to context or rotated out to top 16:57:20 mlg i rm'd it for isforth - its a NOOP :) 16:57:39 only forth assembler compiler foo blah bam definitions 16:57:53 makes BAM the current vocabulary 16:57:59 I440r: I see...hehe 16:58:02 if you then say forth the order is changed to 16:58:13 root assembler compiler foo blah bam forth 16:58:25 mlg: @ the moment only low level code can compromise the running machine via gforth 16:58:28 you CANT duplicate a vocab 16:58:30 so it rolls it 16:58:37 i440 I myself used to define vocab-s so that they add themselves onto the voc stack. But finally decided that compatibility with other systems is more important. 16:58:46 no need for prior_check - yes it rotates it ou tto top. 16:58:53 mlg: other stuff r limited (like i/o flooding or endless loop) 16:59:10 mlg i decided compatability would be an unwanted restriction :) 16:59:34 --- topic: set to 'Forth - comprehensible, small, interactive, fast, extensible, and easy to work with at a high level of abstraction / get isforth at http://isforth.clss.net / enriching Forth & the support of it - come to #forthos' by ChanServ 16:59:48 Do any of you work in colorForh? 17:00:15 * kc5tja doesn't. 17:00:21 Does colorForth ever hold still long enough for any two people to agree they're working with the same thing? 17:00:25 * kc5tja doesn't find ColorForth particularly appealing. 17:00:39 i think colorforth is interesting 17:00:50 An intriguing idea, but I'm perfectly happy with punctuated Forths still. 17:00:50 what's machineforth? 17:00:58 quartus you expect stability from something thats not evolved yet ? 17:01:00 chuck moore is pushing the frontier of forth :) 17:01:02 did anyone print code written in colorforth? 17:01:07 I wonder how much of it is precipitated from Chuck's vision problems. 17:01:12 mlg: tile also avoids ALSO 17:01:13 jim: machineforth is the assembly language of chuck's forth chips 17:01:16 isforth is semi stable now in the kernel - tho thers alot missing i cant add it yet :P 17:01:18 jim: MachineForth is the assembly language for a zero-operand microprocessor. 17:01:36 I440r -- expect? No. But you'll admit it's a moving target, more of a work-in-progress than an actual definable product. 17:01:44 jim: They may correspond to one or two Intel x86 assembly instructions, or to a real microprocessor like F21. 17:01:45 mlg: and it has nice library w many pretty useful examples 17:02:05 quartus its like linux "the bleeding edge" lol 17:02:15 jim: Thus, when you wrote code in MachineForth (which looks like real Forth), you're really programming in assembly language/machine language. Hence its name. 17:02:21 colorforth may never be stable 17:02:27 colorForth is the forth that has hooked me. 17:02:28 MachineForth is also like classic Forth but with attention to the real hardware and with an updated virtual machine compared to traditional Forth. @ and ! are split, IF doesn't consume a flag etc. 17:02:43 but it will lead to new developments that YOU might want to add to YOUR forth - eetc etc 17:02:44 True, but Linux is better defined. ColorForth is notion about color-as-syntax and not much else. 17:02:50 or me to mine for instance 17:03:08 quartus have you LOOKED at the source code to the linux kernel ? 17:03:11 so machineforth is a subset of, say, colorforth, and represents what used to be code words? 17:03:12 now THAT is a gordian k not 17:03:22 thefox: I guess I didn't too badly in explaining that. I was expecting to do worse. :) 17:03:24 Yes -- looked at and worked with. It's large, but impressive. 17:03:27 they LIE when they call that mess "open source" 17:03:43 thefox: maybe chuck finally renames IF ( x -- x ) to IF? ( x -- ) and gets at least consistent naming? 17:04:06 it's GPLed... cant' get more open than that :) 17:04:07 the colorforth concept is also combining the parser with the editor. 17:04:10 I440r: Totally. You have to be in the "in crowd" to even understand it, and a member of Escholon in order to get your mods adopted into the official source distribution. 17:04:30 jim its closed source by virtue of the fact that you have to be one of the "l337" to understand the code 17:04:50 I disagree; I'm hardly one of the inner circle, and I don't have much trouble with it. 17:04:51 thats somehting i hope NOT to emulate with isforth 17:05:12 if i ever get arround to writing my docs i will have a COMPLETE description for EVERY SINGLE word in my kernel and extensions 17:05:22 plus USEFUL examples of their use 17:05:26 Quartus: I do. Not all of the code is as unreadable as Linus' code, but by reviewing the Linux source, there's no hope for being able to write a driver from scratch, for example. 17:05:47 I440r: then compatibility, teachability, readability and understandability -are- goals for isforth? 17:05:48 The source for the drivers is hardly meant as a tutorial for new driver writers. 17:05:51 I440r: you have to know your ass from a hole in the ground to work with the linux kernel 17:06:02 jim remove compatibility 17:06:27 then you remove population :) 17:06:33 davidw i AM workign with the linux kernel. isforth makes absolutely NO references to ANY libs at all 17:06:47 jim not if isforht is the ONLY real choice :) 17:07:12 I440r: is it just syscalls or what? 17:07:16 ues 17:07:17 Quartus: Agreed. But you would expect the implementation to at least be helpful. 17:07:17 yes 17:07:28 That all depends on what kind of help you need, kc. 17:07:32 Quartus: Especially when you ask a question about it, and they just say, "Read the damn source." 17:07:35 and any syscall that the kernel doesnt use is NOT defined in the kernel 17:07:37 buyt 17:07:44 every syscall uses the same handler so 17:07:47 Well, correct me, but isn't there an Oreilly just on device drivers for Linux? 17:08:00 #paramers syscall# syscall 17:08:00 Quartus: yes, by Alessandro Rubini:-) 17:08:10 creates a word called to handle that syscall 17:08:12 Then I'd imagine they'd tell you to read that, instead :) 17:08:15 * juu wonders what he remembers tomorrow .. 3 am or so 17:08:21 soon 3:30 and then4 am :P 17:08:41 juu i forget things... its old age ya know :) 17:08:51 Quartus: Yes, there is. And there's a reason that book was published. :) But I shouldn't have to get a whole book to understand the inner workings of Linux's device driver maintenance code. 17:09:10 I440r or too much coding ;) 17:09:28 You really think it's so simple a topic that you should be able to glean it all just by perusing the source to another driver? Perhaps some can manage that. I wouldn't want to try it. 17:09:29 no such thing :P 17:09:34 --- quit: XeF4 ("nukkumaan!") 17:09:36 just "too much coding without being paid" 17:09:37 I440r have you talked forth at shops yet? ;) 17:09:46 shops ? 17:09:57 ya know - work 17:10:01 pla, dont know i dont go there.. 17:10:12 Quartus: I've not only done it in the past (e.g., I can glean AmigaOS's device driver capabilities and learn how to write a driver from perusing existing driver source code), but I'll repeat it with Dolphin. Guaranteed. 17:10:26 oh - i actually USED forth at work once :) 17:10:30 Yet the same operation for Linux device drivers has you stymied? 17:10:33 yes, t ."shoplist" ; t -- symbols like shopassistant and so ;) 17:10:39 worked for joy mining machenery in england 17:10:52 their long wall coal mining roof support systems were coded in forth 17:11:48 unfortunatly ive not had work in quite a few months 17:11:49 nice, and you just "had to " optimize the code, rite? :) 17:11:58 Quartus: Yes. 17:11:59 if anyone is hiring im available :) 17:12:06 i dont optimize code 17:12:10 Quartus: Because the interface is too damn cryptic. 17:12:13 i dont even like compilers to do so 17:12:18 i just write GOOD code. 17:12:18 :) 17:12:24 like me 17:12:29 and i want a 1:1 co-relation between source and object 17:12:43 i dont want the compiler injecting things in my code because IT thinks they are better :) 17:12:57 * kc5tja ponders using a MachineForth of sorts for writing his x86 Forth environment... But I'm worried about it being a good fit. 17:13:06 * juu wants to create own pseudoprogramminglanguage 17:14:21 i named it .. hmm.. i became "larhu" as it was typo of "karhu" (bear in finnish) which i supposed to write :) 17:14:37 thanks for the foo time 17:14:40 bye 17:14:42 --- part: geakazoid left #forth 17:14:48 foo time :) 17:14:55 anyone else think this is FOO time ?? :) 17:14:59 heh 17:15:19 i440 what is FOO then? 17:15:33 I440r: yes foo foo 17:15:52 gilbert dood you asked a GOOD question today! 17:15:55 like you coud register forth.foo.info if you wish to :) 17:15:57 your slipping :) 17:16:01 did i now :) 17:16:17 see y'all, thanks! 17:16:35 quatrus dood 17:16:44 good to have had you in here etc 17:16:50 come back any time :) 17:16:56 Likewise. Hope Chuck'll be back. Later! 17:16:59 we need more CLUEFUL coders in here :) 17:16:59 --- part: Quartus left #forth 17:17:05 but hey, tell me which reasons you prefer forth.. speed? the writing style? or? 17:17:13 I think this session probably tried Mr. Moore's patience 17:17:19 Hehe 17:17:19 no 17:17:23 it is probably a bit mmuch to ask him so soon :P 17:17:31 i dont think it did so too much 17:17:33 juu: your friends will think you are 3l33t if you can read/write/understand forth ;) 17:17:42 :) 17:17:44 Well, if you're a god, then you're a god :) He's probably used to it ;) 17:17:56 i hope he doesnt feel OBLIGED to come back... 17:18:06 rob_ert: futhin said he wrote an email in regard to the 'god' thing ... ask him about it. 17:18:06 "forth is the ultimate geek language because it's easier to write an interpreter in C, than actually understand forth code";-) 17:18:19 Uhm 17:18:20 Well 17:18:20 he is a VERY welcome adition to the channel 17:18:24 Hrm 17:18:33 I'm sorry for that, GilbertBSD 17:18:38 but i dont want to waste his time or anything :) 17:18:44 davidw: I disagree 17:18:48 i hope he feels it was time well spent 17:18:49 People simply shouldn't take me too seriously 17:18:52 rob_ert: it wasn't a bad or angry response he wrote. 17:18:56 it was actually funny. 17:19:00 so, I was out salsa dancing - where is the channel log for chuck's comments? 17:19:03 Yeah? 17:19:05 What did he say? 17:19:26 juu: Forth is extensible, so that one can arrange code so that it corresponds to his way of thinking. 17:19:36 emmm I forget ... I wanted to copy and paste it. 17:19:50 * davidw thinks in variables - not stack twiddling 17:19:52 davidw: a forth interpreter is -far- easier to understand than a C interpreter... I know, I've written both, and made sure -both- were readable 17:19:57 GilbertBSD: Can you paste in a query? 17:20:18 jim: that's the point 17:20:25 I found the FML discussion interesting. 17:20:27 rob_ert: it was early this morning so its prolly in the clogs 17:20:37 jim: it's easier to understand the forth interpreter than forth code (according to my friend's quote) 17:20:37 that was around 3 or 4 am I think. 17:20:41 jim you wrote a c interpreter ? 17:20:44 Wow...almost 3 hours that interview lasted. :) 17:20:46 jim: I'd want to learn how to write a forth :-/ But I can't seem to find any good info or small example forths 17:20:47 2.5 or so. 17:20:48 i feel your pain man! 17:20:49 heh 17:20:58 GilbertBSD: Thanks 17:21:00 rob_ert: ficl 17:21:03 Hm 17:21:06 I tried that one 17:21:11 It's in C, heh :-) 17:21:14 * TheBlueWizard agrees with jim, and admires the Forth interpreter (QUIT, INTERPRET) for model of simplicity 17:21:16 well, not wrote... but I took Herb Schildt's one from "born to code ..." and fixed it :) 17:21:25 heh 17:21:28 rob_ert: try implementing some level one forth ... and adding to that. 17:21:34 did you send him the fix ? 17:21:43 rob_ert: Do a web search for "Moving Forth" -- it's a series of articles outlining the process of porting or writing your own Forth, and the techniques behind it. It's more theoretical, but the text is very approachable, and has diagrams. 17:21:50 I've seen that one 17:22:02 And I think I underdtand the threading quite well :) 17:22:04 did you get the t-shirt too rob_ert? 17:22:05 j/k 17:22:09 But...then there are other things 17:22:10 rob_ert: http://zetetics.com/bj/papers/ 17:22:11 GilbertBSD: ;) 17:22:23 Ahh 17:22:24 Like, dictionary pointer 17:22:25 no, I think he liked his hacks... what I did, made it -robust- and truely recursive (he did things that defeated that) 17:22:30 That I don't know what it is, heh 17:23:06 eeep! recursion is an abomination!!! :) 17:23:17 before that, I did the same thing to several of the lisp interpreters given in Allen's Anatomy of Lisp 17:23:19 jim ive yet to see a recursive method that couldnt be done better with itteration 17:23:25 rob_ert: Just as a cursor is the point at which newly typed text goes, so to a dictionary pointer is where newly compiled Forth code goes. 17:23:46 * TheBlueWizard chuckles re: I440r's loathing of recursion....he likes recursions on occasions 17:23:46 I440r : Look up the "Tower of Hanoi Problem". 17:23:48 kc5tja: cool paralell! 17:23:53 Hmm 17:23:56 I440r: say that on #scheme and they'll lynch you;-) 17:24:07 frac is there a url ?? :) 17:24:14 TheBlueWizard: I do too. Sometimes it's just plain easier. Heck, even Chuck admitted that he parses his circuit traces in OKAD using recursion. :D 17:24:15 kc5tja: I'd need some more details :) Know any good page, code snippet or resource? 17:24:16 Hmm... There should be many. 17:24:18 davidw whats scheme ??? :) 17:24:21 I440r: basically, recursion can be a more general method of iterating 17:24:28 * davidw rests his case 17:24:30 I'll find one. 17:24:33 The URL I posted is a good start... 17:24:35 I440r: C is structured in a recursive way (but that doesn't mean it has to be a recursive -process-) 17:24:36 one good app of recursion is tree walking 17:24:39 davidw its just a method of looping 17:24:39 actually forth was first compiler on V2_os 17:24:53 tail recursion is a very nice style 17:24:55 jim exactly - like my regeon flood fill. itterative. 17:24:57 I440r: read 'structure and interpretation of computer programs' by abelson and sussman (one or two s's?) 17:25:19 kc5tja: OK, thanks 17:25:23 davidw ive not had work in about 9 months so i cant afford the book :P 17:25:29 remind me when i win the lottery :P 17:25:35 Hehe 17:25:36 davidw: I mean "recursive process" as used in that book 17:25:38 Well, folks, bye to all, it's a bit late here now. 17:25:44 www.cut-the-knot.com/recurrence/hanoi.shtml 17:25:48 mlg: Talk to you later! :) 17:26:02 --- quit: mlg ("Leaving") 17:26:12 who wanted my gforth ipcalculator 17:26:13 frac ill checkk that out :) 17:26:13 ? 17:26:28 sleep... 17:26:31 kc5tja: were you the one with the visor? 17:26:33 When you have to recurse twice with every recursion, it gets very difficult to do it with loops, I find. And recursion always makes for more elegant code, I find. 17:26:38 I440r : Cool. 17:26:54 did anyone log the proceedings? 17:27:25 I believe I have a complete copy 17:27:39 davidw: tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 17:27:47 davidw: you mean of chipChuck here? 17:27:56 frac: quite correct....often, such types, when converted to iterative form, you will find you have to implement a local stack to keep track of things 17:27:56 frac the recursive FIB code in various forth benchmarks recurses on itself ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN MILLION TIMES to calculate the 40th fib 17:27:56 joa: yes 17:28:10 joa: I440r's ranting and raving I can listen to every day;-))) 17:28:26 TheBlueWizard : Exactly. Which negates any preformance bonus you'd get out of looping. 17:28:39 yup 17:28:43 --- quit: AlephNull ("Good night.") 17:28:47 : fib 0 1 rot 1 do tuck + loop nip ; 17:28:58 hmm.. what forth cant do? 17:28:59 I440r : Well, there's lots of stupid programs out there.:) 17:29:01 i never rant and rave :P 17:29:07 frac heh ya 17:29:26 * TheBlueWizard will gladly rant and rave for I440r ;) 17:29:32 just kidding 17:29:34 davidw: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.04 has it, I think 17:29:35 :) 17:29:46 yep, there's me talking :) 17:31:08 hey.. what forth cant do? before restart learning yet another language.. 17:31:35 joa: No; I have a Palm 3x. wtanksley has a visor, though. 17:31:35 juu: it sure can't make coffee without a special coffee maker or coffee maker adaptor 17:31:52 joa damn! ;) 17:32:11 juu: You're wrong. Watch this. 17:32:19 gforth: CREATE COFFEE COFFEE . 17:32:27 juu: nothing much....though there are some areas where other languages may be more suitable...like Lisp for arbitrary data structure manipulations 17:32:32 gforth: CREATE COFFEE COFFEE . 17:32:34 is it fully capaple language, like C or hmm.. some other? 17:32:36 kc5tja: haha 17:32:42 kc5tja: told ya 17:32:43 g4 CREATE COFFEE COFFEE . 17:32:46 kc5tja: 1075038368 17:32:46 lol 17:32:51 juu: oh yes it is fully capable 17:32:52 TOLD YA! :P~ 17:32:52 heh 17:33:01 BX was bold-facing the colon. 17:33:04 * kc5tja keeps forgetting about that. 17:33:07 hey, I've gotta go get my coffee :) brb 17:33:09 kc5tja but i dont drink coffee :) 17:33:19 Neither do I. :D Horrid, evil stuff.. 17:33:28 juu: Forth can't work like everything else and some things are very good at what they do. Forth has to adapt to some things where other languages might not. 17:33:30 gotta go, see you all tomorrow :) 17:33:30 Hot chocolate, on the other hand....ambrosia. 17:33:31 yummy yummy uhm... yummy stuff 17:33:32 brb 17:33:33 later futhin 17:33:38 futhin nite dood 17:33:48 * TheBlueWizard bans coffee as well...hmm...does Chuck hate coffee? 17:33:56 --- quit: futhin ("bye all") 17:33:56 bye futhin 17:33:58 coffee is a staple 17:34:11 I like tea :) 17:34:17 And water. 17:34:26 And maybe orange juice. 17:34:28 chinese green tea is good 17:34:31 * juu likes bears (alive) 17:34:33 english tea is bleh 17:34:41 I ban tea.....but I'm a confirmed chocoholic! 17:34:43 * juu dislikes deodorant :) 17:34:45 thefox: If you're willing to give a little and take a litte, I find Forth to be incredibly adept language. It can be made to do anything (almost?) you want, though it might take a little bit to teach it. 17:34:46 I like most tea, if I get enough sugar ;) 17:34:49 juu: So do I. 17:35:13 I like tea, too 17:35:14 lol my random number sequence repeat finder is still going after 24 hours :) 17:35:19 almost 17:35:20 :)) 17:35:31 I440r: Is this a program you wrote in isForth? 17:35:34 What's it searching for examtly? 17:35:35 yes 17:35:37 exactly* 17:35:43 I like some teas and I don't care if it's got sugar :) 17:35:53 some teas have to have sugar 17:35:54 kc5tja: um....thefox is Jeff Fox...a well known Forther 17:35:57 or else .. 17:36:00 i am trying to find out how many numbers it can generate before the first 20 repeat 17:36:11 GilbertBSD: or else they taste like lima beans? 17:36:22 yep lima beans with some sand 17:36:23 TheBlueWizard: I know. :) He and I have conversed numerous times before. We even *fought* a couple times on CLF in the past too. :D 17:36:29 GilbertBSD: I hate lima bean tea 17:36:39 I440r: what sort of RNG is it? sometimes the repeating cycle can be mathematically determined 17:36:51 mersenne twister ? 17:36:54 kc5tja: ah :) 17:36:55 joa i bet that its better than chicorie or however you spellz it 17:37:20 tbw maths? whussat ? 17:37:21 lol 17:37:31 I440r: I dunno... I'm pretty sure I've never had actual lima bean tea... kinda like grape jelly beans... just tastes like grapes... though they don't actually have grape flavor either... hmmmm 17:37:34 heh 17:37:38 its in the isforht source fode :) 17:37:49 if futhin were still here, I'd say poutine a few times and hope for the best 17:37:51 aha heh 17:38:06 TheBlueWizard: The only thing I *hate* about ultratechnology.com is how long it takes to download those on-line videos. :( Bandwidth costs way too much, even today. 17:38:11 tbw its a variation on a very old and well known rng 17:38:41 RC4 -- the ultimate RNG. 17:38:58 I440r: all pseudo RNGs eventually repeat...I have studied it a bit in the past, and if you are using linear congruence for pRNG, its cycle is easily determined 17:39:05 I thought the mersenne-twister was the ultimate? 17:39:19 tbw hang on 17:39:20 heh 17:39:33 GilbertBSD: It might be, but I know the two share a common technique. 17:39:35 I so very want to convert my smoke detector into a RNG 17:39:44 So which one is "the best" might not be answerable. 17:39:51 s/ TheBlueWizard / bluewiz 17:39:56 kc5tja: lol...haven't download anything other than F21 emulator.... 17:39:56 what a long freaking name! 17:39:58 has anyone ever tried that? 17:40:02 I know that RC4 is cryptographically strong, and is considered a munition. 17:40:06 : rnd seed $1b0f * $7abc + dup !> seed swap /mod seed xor 2/ +!> seed ; 17:40:09 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login46.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 17:40:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 17:40:20 wb tcn 17:40:28 GilbertBSD: can't you use tab completion? 17:40:32 hiya tcn 17:40:36 yeah but ... 17:40:37 hey everyone 17:40:42 --- nick: GilbertBSD -> gilbert 17:40:45 th is all I need :) 17:40:45 hi tcn :) 17:40:49 hi tcn 17:40:54 GilbertBSD: or you can just call me TBW...everyone knows me by that as well 17:41:01 TheBlueWizard: heh, I even tab completed tcn there for some reason... 17:41:07 cool. 17:41:10 tbw - like BTW but different :) 17:41:26 yep :) 17:41:26 TBW: BTW >R SWAP R> 17:41:27 Blue The Wizard? :) 17:41:41 Blue the WIZARD!! *goes for paint* 17:41:50 LMAO 17:41:52 :D 17:41:52 rofl hey, I'll help with that one 17:42:02 BTW - By The Way 17:42:04 lol 17:42:09 We know I440r ;) 17:42:14 heh 17:42:14 uhm 17:42:19 "We know, I440r" 17:42:26 * joa doesn't know what was funny about that one, I440r 17:42:27 OK, I need to do some stretches. My back is killing me. 17:42:33 :-/ 17:42:40 I read a long time ago that forthers can be found in airports chanting forthwords alongside the monks ... 17:42:45 does that still happen? 17:42:48 rob_ert: they are much older than us, I find :/ 17:43:09 joa: How old are you? 17:43:12 * TheBlueWizard pulls out little knives that thefox stabbed in kc5tja's back 17:43:18 rob_ert: 19 17:43:21 They sure don't act very mature :) 17:43:25 kc5tja: better? ;) 17:43:28 * rob_ert is 16... maybe I've already said that 17:43:30 rob_ert: rofl! I'll leave that one to you 17:43:30 * juu is also at good ago 19 :) 17:43:33 rob_ert: maturity is OVER rated. 17:43:37 I've memory like a 90 y/p 17:43:41 y/o* 17:43:51 rob_ert but this is 18-or-more channel!! ;) 17:43:56 pfff 17:44:00 Get lost :) 17:44:02 TheBlueWizard: No. The knives helped actually. 17:44:08 TheBlueWizard: Accupuncture. :) 17:44:08 rob_ert i am, it's 4 am 17:44:08 We need to get the youth into forth 17:44:15 Otherwise forth will die =) 17:44:17 Nah 17:44:19 only 2:45 17:44:21 * kc5tja is 27. 17:44:23 4 am 17:44:26 In the right timezone :) 17:44:32 forth will never die 17:44:35 kc5tja: lol 17:44:41 of cours not, I440r 17:44:51 no, all its users might but it won't 17:44:51 kc5tja: Still below the average age in #forth, but way above the average age on OPN :) 17:45:11 haha 17:45:21 heh.... 17:45:37 I think it's the ':'s in the IRC protocol that attract forth users to IRC 17:45:49 thefox: how did you learn forth? from CM? 17:45:50 By the very definition of what Forth is, it will never die. 17:46:03 Yeah... they're the only ones dumb enough to use telnet to IRC, joa ;) 17:46:04 Forth is whatever you make it to be. 17:46:24 Yeah... 17:46:25 Hehe 17:46:26 rob_ert: dude, that's way fun 17:46:31 ahhh but kc5tja, no one here has yet said "i love this forth very much and only this forth" 17:46:32 Hehe 17:46:37 I'm an xchat fan ;) 17:46:40 forthers are _picky_ 17:46:43 * kc5tja has to SSH to IRC, but that's because of company restrictions. 17:46:57 * joa uses irssi, actually... it's not bad :) 17:47:00 irssi is the best console client I've tried 17:47:01 kc5tja: he meant telnet to the IRC server directly, I think heh 17:47:03 gilbert because the one they love is usually the one they have hacked on for a few years 17:47:06 gilbert: I don't understand what you're saying. 17:47:12 so its basicaly their version of the forth 17:47:25 rob_ert: ya, I keep it in screen on my router-like box 17:47:29 I have never heard a cobol dinosaur complaining ;) 17:47:44 rob_ert: I'm not too hot on quitting IRC just because quake killed X 17:47:45 gilbert: I have. 17:47:48 my fpc was 30 ish k extended and could metacompile and extend in about 2 seconds flat on my 486 dx-2/66 17:47:51 because dinosaurs can't talk ;) 17:47:52 joa: :) 17:47:55 oh? about cobol? did they cry and weep? 17:48:01 gilbert: "I DON'T WANT TO PROGRAM IN COBOL ANYMORE!!" (throws books across the room) 17:48:05 and I'm not kidding either. :) 17:48:12 lol 17:48:13 hawwww 17:48:42 * kc5tja almost got smacked in the head with that book too. Fortunately, one of the nice things they teach you in aikido is getting off the line (a.k.a., evasion). 17:49:01 the best defence is to.... NOT BE there 17:49:05 kc what does patience mean anyway ... 17:49:08 I440r: Exactly. 17:49:12 does laziness count as patience? 17:49:14 or to carry a bigger gun :) 17:49:18 heh.. i was reading about how PL/I had so many types & conversions, nobody could remember the rules 17:49:21 gilbert not realy :) 17:49:35 why not? 17:49:36 gilbert: No. Patience means you can wait indefinately for your desired outcome, but it's an active, attentive wait. it's not passive and lethargic. 17:49:49 but in either case you can do nothing ... 17:50:00 wing chun teches you to get out of the way too :) 17:50:06 heh...I once had to port C to COBOL at work...fortunately MicroFocus compiler/IDE generated a lot of COBOL so I don't have to learn too much COBOL (it was a Y2K thingie, plus we had to get rid of old machines the financial systems were running on) 17:50:20 kc5tja: so setting up a stasis field programmed to unfreeze you when your goal is accomplished isn't patience? 17:50:21 but it also teaches you to attack at the same time you defend... does akido ? 17:50:32 --- quit: davidw (No route to host) 17:50:47 * I440r dunno much about akido 17:51:01 joa: No. That's the opposite of patience. You're not waiting for your desired . You're being pro-active in that sense. 17:51:20 i4: most styles of fighting should...it is only logical, if you ask me :P 17:51:27 I440r: Four basic principles of aikido: 1) Relax completely, 2) Weight underside, 3) Extend ki, and 4) keep one-point. 17:51:37 kc5tja: I bet it's more work than being patient though ;) 17:51:45 Uhm 17:51:46 gforth doesn't have "not" 17:51:49 joa: Proactive necessarily is more work, yes. 17:51:52 What can I do instead? 17:51:55 like usual...I failed to get enough sun today 17:51:58 rob_ert: : NOT 0= ; 17:52:12 ah, OK 17:52:14 goshawk` here it is SUNday :) 17:52:15 danke schön 17:52:20 kc5 learning to be relaxed is another difficult part for beginners (me) in wing chun : 17:52:26 all the usual symptoms of our scandanavian friends when they don't get enough sun 17:52:27 :P 17:52:31 It's critical. I still haven't mastered it. 17:52:32 but the attack at same time as you defend is for economy of motion 17:52:39 juu: 17:52:43 I still don't get it. 17:52:46 if you are attacking and i defend and strike at the same time you are less able to absorbe it 17:52:53 what does _relax_ meanW? 17:52:54 it has more impact 17:53:02 not be rigid 17:53:05 say 'peace mon' and smoke a bowl? 17:53:05 --- quit: thefox () 17:53:07 goshawk` 4 am 17:53:08 gilbert: sleep at work, and get a brisk lunch 17:53:17 hahah 17:53:19 I440r: In Aikido, the defense is the attack. You have no idea where I am, what I'm doing, or how I'm doing it. The next thing you know, you're flat on the ground. 17:53:21 --- quit: mslicker ("[x]chat") 17:53:32 * juu will learn forth till 18th day, which are good interpreters? 17:53:39 juu: fpc :) 17:53:44 juu: isforth! 17:53:44 kc5 i block with my left and strike with my right at the same time 17:53:47 urls? :) 17:53:48 * joa cheers I440r on 17:53:48 or vice versa 17:53:53 juu: almost 9PM on a Saturday, here 17:53:53 I440r: You'd never hit me. 17:53:55 ummm same place man. google. 17:54:06 kc5 me? probably not 17:54:10 my sifu >? 17:54:14 you wouldnt stand a chance :) 17:54:18 I440r: What makes you think I'm going to be dumb enough to stand in front of you? ;D (Hint hint) 17:54:26 centerline. 17:54:35 stay out of my centerline and you are safe :) 17:54:40 bah shoot the mofo 17:54:45 specially if you can keep me in yours 17:54:47 Stay *in* my centerline, and you're safe from me. 17:54:56 gilbert i carry a 45 but its useuess if they are close 17:55:11 why? 17:55:21 juu: for what platform? 17:55:25 so if you two get in a brawl, you can't hurt each other? :) 17:55:30 because they MIGHT take it from you and use it against 17:55:35 lol 17:55:36 ah nm 17:55:36 tcn: Not substantially, no. 17:55:42 tcn: And that's the point. :) 17:55:52 onetom linux, and temporary windows/dos 17:55:53 tcn thats already been covered by "not being there" heh 17:55:54 they might reposes your gun AND your money all with a comb. 17:55:55 I440r: shoot everyone and you're safe in that regard 17:55:56 hah, tcn 17:56:00 tcn: Aikido is an art of defense, and of keeping balance and peace. 17:56:10 joa only until they arrest you lol 17:56:14 make sure you have enough ammo and a small hole in front of you heh 17:56:17 juu: gforth is full-featured enough, for example 17:56:26 juu: and its also multiplatform 17:56:28 I440r: well, you're safe then too but maybe not for long heh 17:56:31 yay aikido :) 17:56:38 what's I440r's martial art? 17:56:39 they sure won't shoot you if they've arrested you ;) 17:56:41 juu: for dos use fpc 17:56:42 shooting? 17:56:43 wing chun 17:56:44 I really like it. 17:56:50 and 45 acp :) 17:56:58 anybody else into Capoeira? 17:57:02 more corectly wing chun kune 17:57:10 juu: (actually its bloated, and too much complies w ansi :) 17:57:15 I took karate for a while, that's it 17:57:27 tcn too rigid. too square 17:57:37 tae kwan do is better 17:57:38 you don't have to tell me! 17:57:45 * kc5tja can't believe he's been taking aikido for almost three years now. That's nothing in the grand scheme of things, but for me, that's quite a long time. 17:57:49 but still no match for a good kung fu or akido 17:57:49 ugh.. not the tawkwando i've seen 17:57:56 herkamire: whats Capoeir 17:58:01 I440r: Unless you're slow, like me. :D 17:58:02 herkamire: a? 17:58:34 kc5 heh as long as you arent slow in the head you can STILL win against a stronger but dumber opponentt :) 17:58:41 the stupid thing about karate is the katas, or rather the way they're taught 17:59:00 I440r: Physically slow body movement is the death of me, if I were to get into a real, honest-to-goodness, drag-out brawl. 17:59:01 tcn erm the patterns in tae kwan do have absolutely NO rationale 17:59:03 from what I can tell, Kung Fu is more of an "enabler" than a leveler for a good practitioner 17:59:12 this is of course the opinion of the uneducated observer 17:59:18 they are just random sequences of moves invented by some general or other 400 years ago in korea 17:59:26 heh 17:59:26 Capoeira (roll the are if you can so it comes out sounding like Cop-uh-way-ta) is a fighting art devoped by people who weren't allowed to practice fighting. 17:59:34 so it's a dance, a game and a fighting art 17:59:40 tcn: that isn't stupid...katas are a way of teaching you the forms...it is a bit like a compact set of exercise 17:59:47 but, it seems like it embraces the talent (or lack thereof) of its implementor 18:00:06 at least the katas have something to study.. 18:00:15 *shrug* 18:00:19 tbw the fistn form in wing chun gives you every single basic movemtne in the art 18:00:45 it's got it's own music style and everything. lot's of fun, and a hell of a workout. Lots of spinning, it's all in the legs and fun acrobatics (like I learned how to do a back flip from standing) 18:00:50 * TheBlueWizard isn't familiar with wing chun and takes I440r's word for it 18:00:50 but you gotta practice sparring, all-out.. 18:01:08 tbw - learn it if you can find a sifu who will teach you 18:01:19 Watch "Only the Strong" if you want to see some Capoeira. not a bad movie either. 18:01:26 Aikido has aiki taisos which embody the basic movements of aikido. But Aikido doesn't limit itself to those movements. Aikido is like Jeet Kune Do in that respect; you're free to improvise if you want. 18:01:34 I440r: think there is one in WashDC area? 18:01:39 herkamire: is it practiced in cuba/brazil/trinidad ? 18:01:39 As long as you maintain your center and have good body mechanics, you're good to go. 18:01:47 herkamire: contact performance ;) 18:01:54 kc5 jeet kune do is a bullshit MOVIE martial art 18:01:58 herkamire: aint u allowed to practice fighting? 18:02:06 because yip man refused to teach bruce lee any more wing chun 18:02:19 the mook jong in yeet kune do is a JOKE 18:02:25 heh.. my closest thing to a martial art now is contradancing. I mean there's lots of spinning, and awareness of what everyone's doing.. 18:02:26 its just for pounding on 18:02:33 I440r: You'll continue to think that until you get clocked by a practitioner. Like any art, you have the flops, the fallacies, and the gurus. 18:02:47 onetom: :) I am. The point is that they made it look like a dance, so they could practice anyway :) 18:02:59 JKD is the closest thing to "organized street fighting" i've ever seen. And it's damn effective. 18:03:01 kc5 its a bastardization of wing chun by a guy who knew next to NO wing chun 18:03:15 I440r: There is no one true martial art. 18:03:30 I440r: Wing chun is a variant of Chih Na if you want to get that far. 18:03:31 kc5 bruce lee was a MASTER martial artist 18:03:38 i heard bruce lee was a tough dude though.. 18:03:42 onetom: it quite a few moves that work well as break dancing actually :) 18:03:49 tcn he was 18:04:06 when did Mr. Fox sign off? 18:04:06 so, so what if it wasn't "true" wing chun? 18:04:24 herkamire: hold on. lemme ask a bit more. brb 18:04:32 kc5tja: i think you will find your mistake on that one - unlike most martial arts the complete history of wing chun is known 18:04:54 gilbert: I think capoeira originated in Brazil, but I'm not sure. 18:05:05 it wasnt called wing chun originally, wing chun is a girls name 18:05:09 I440r forth was selfdefense tactic after all! what am i doing hre? ;) 18:05:17 it was named after one of the first people to use it 18:05:24 cool...he sent me an email back =) 18:05:40 what'd he say? 18:05:40 juu forth is the kung fu of programming :) 18:05:45 I440r: I think you'll make a mistake in assuming that the complete heritage of a martial art is completely known. Read any number of books on Aikido, for example. There are people who attribute the introduction of some techniques to O'Sensei, some to Tohei sensei, some to Kobyashi sensei, etc. 18:05:49 gosh who did ? 18:05:49 Aikido isn't alone. 18:06:01 rob_ert you'll do paging error if you dont go soon to sleep :) ike me.. 4 amm.. oh dear 18:06:04 tcn: just asked me to comment on a document he wrote 18:06:08 TKD, Hapkido (especially!), and so many more have such ambiguous origins, it's not even funny. 18:06:08 i4: Fox 18:06:18 Wing Chun isn't alone either. 18:06:22 No matter what anyone says. 18:06:23 gosh cool 18:06:34 yeah =) 18:06:56 Hell, aikido isn't even 100 years old yet, and we still don't know where half of it came from. 18:06:57 * juu attacks with terible keyword 18:07:03 foo! 18:07:04 :) 18:07:12 kc5: space aliens! spooookyy!! 18:07:23 * I440r defends with..... 18:07:25 drop 18:07:27 * joa finishes juu off with a bar 18:07:27 :) 18:07:29 forth wins 18:07:36 * kc5tja laughs 18:07:39 I was about to post that. 18:07:40 :) 18:07:44 lol 18:07:52 lol 18:07:54 fools seldome differ ? 18:08:03 Or Great minds think alike. 18:08:05 :) 18:08:14 But, who is the fool? The fool, or the fool who follows him? 18:08:17 the way i see it...any art practiced by the elite bodyguards of a wealthy ruling body comes up with a lot of awesome nearly-otherwise-unachieveable stuff 18:08:20 errr - this is ME were talking about here dont forget :) 18:08:27 or #forth is rarely on topic... 18:08:31 the US being no exception, imo :P 18:08:33 lol 18:08:38 we have our moments 18:08:45 but i dont want a moderated channel 18:08:45 brief though they may be 18:08:49 yeyea 18:08:54 this is a good place for forth coders to hang 18:08:54 i'll give you way to save "moments" 18:08:57 and idlke 18:08:59 idle 18:09:01 herkamire: ya know http://www.swisstricks.com/ ? 18:09:03 and talk forth or anything else 18:09:06 yeah! free software, free speech, and free beer 18:09:09 http://www.digdug.cx/quotes/?top 18:09:09 what is this moderated stuff 18:09:11 there you go 18:09:12 free wimmin ? 18:09:13 and free electrons! 18:09:17 or wimmin 18:09:21 moments .... http://www.digdug.cx/quotes/?top 18:09:24 how dare you oppress me 18:09:28 with your moderated bullshit 18:09:33 * joa uses his bar on goshawk` 18:09:36 *belch* 18:09:43 joa make mine a JD :) 18:09:46 goshawk`: fox went away ~20 mins b4 18:09:49 * goshawk` is doing his college protester impression 18:10:00 onetom: thanks...I just didn't notice him leave :P 18:10:01 I440r: your wimmin or beer? 18:10:46 goshawk`: he was talkin 2 me and has parted so suddenly as chuck had :) 18:10:56 hah 18:10:59 hey 18:11:08 they both share a terseness for goodbyes =) 18:11:15 forth interpreter urls, i feel my kernel unstable :D 18:11:15 :) 18:11:20 cant find any 18:11:30 juu: what? 18:11:45 juu: check taygeta.com 18:11:51 isforth.clss.net 18:11:56 juu: or apt-cache search forth 18:12:03 yah 18:12:13 isforth on apt? :) 18:12:14 hm 18:12:15 oh 18:12:38 gforth is nice to play with, I think 18:12:42 www.gnu.org 18:12:48 onetom: nice link :) my plaympeg has issues just at the moment hough. 18:12:52 rob_ert: husssh, its not that perfect yet (/me offends eeyor >:) 18:12:55 * joa thinks isforth looks cool :) 18:12:57 I don't care if it's bloated, it's my playmate 18:13:05 hmm.. I could use something like FML for CAD 18:13:08 i4: nice shot at dropping hints for isforth, today 18:13:09 herkamire: hey, u dont use mplayer?!? 18:13:10 Q 18:13:13 Forth was adopted as a standard language by the International Astronomical Union. 18:13:13 =) 18:13:16 is that still true? 18:13:26 kc5tja: heck you might know! 18:13:39 gilber: no...they decided brainfuck was more compact 18:13:42 I don't think it's still true. 18:13:45 easier to write on star charts 18:13:49 I don't think they really care anymore, actually. 18:13:52 and scribble on bathroom stall doors 18:13:59 However, as an amateur astronomer myself, that's just one more reason to adore Forth! 18:14:31 next week's interview.....the author of "brainfuck" 18:14:37 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:14:53 My dad has a lot of amateur astronomer books that has a lot of Forth source code for the old TRS-80 computer and Apple II computers. Really neat stuff. 18:14:53 soap has slipped away :) 18:14:54 goshawk`: he was an amiga guy :) 18:15:05 AMIGA!! :D 18:15:08 Amiga rules. 18:15:08 i4: hah, really? =) 18:15:12 yes 18:15:13 /join #brainfuck 18:15:17 tcn 18:15:23 lol! check this one out: http://www.swisstricks.com/pictures/Fabian-Air-1.jpg 18:15:23 tcn: ;D 18:15:25 it hsa only 8 opcodes! 18:15:26 :) 18:15:31 has 18:15:43 i've seen it :) 18:15:48 amiga rules 18:15:51 4:30 am soon 18:15:54 aak 18:15:56 there was a humorous page with a mess of "BS" languages that anyone can use 18:16:02 I wish I remembered the url 18:16:25 it had the links to the "official" homepages, user sites, miscellaneous code and docs...it was pretty funny 18:16:49 sesja folks 18:16:53 4:30 am is too much for me 18:16:56 this time 18:16:56 bye 18:16:56 see ya 18:17:01 buffer over run :P 18:17:02 bye juu bear :) 18:17:06 seiza ;) 18:17:15 'll retrun 18:17:23 is that how you say "see ya" in hungarian? 18:17:27 juu coders never sleep :) 18:17:34 one language even was based on probability 18:17:34 * juu is finn 18:17:42 nite dood 18:17:47 or "mornin" :) 18:17:49 * juu havent slept, it's just inactive mode :) 18:17:58 * juu talks finnish 18:18:04 you spent more time and inserted more code designed to make the program run statistically more times than it crashes 18:18:07 it was really funny 18:18:08 it's moi or näkemiin or whatever 18:18:13 tcn: nooohhhohoo, its an aikido related thing. this is the standard form of sitting 18:18:16 dont go anywhere 18:18:18 ;) 18:18:20 lol 18:18:23 hehe 18:18:30 onetom: ?? 18:18:30 Adios ... forth rules 18:18:31 juu: your first time here? 18:18:32 --- quit: gilbert ("xchat exiting..") 18:18:33 tcn: its szia, in hungarian, anyway 18:18:44 Seiza in English (pronounce Say-za) 18:18:45 kc5tja: have i mispelled it? 18:19:08 Actually, that's how I sit when my back hurts. Seiza is very good posture for the back. 18:19:12 TheBlueWizard juppers 18:19:16 kc5tja: what do u call that position when u r sitting on u legs? 18:19:22 Seiza 18:19:23 :) 18:19:25 sometimes have to start even 18:19:27 cya 18:19:28 agh 18:19:32 then "tervetuloa!" 18:19:33 a seiza is something I have when I see too many back-to-back pokemon episodes :P 18:19:37 i'll just kill before i am here 18:19:40 til 6 am 18:19:41 :) 18:19:53 hello 18:19:54 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-23.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 18:19:58 re Soap` 18:20:03 Hi 18:20:04 hiya Soap` 18:20:10 bb tomorrow 18:20:14 rob_ert you too sleep 18:20:22 it's 3:20 am there!! 18:20:23 juu: terve 18:20:30 =) 18:20:32 I will, soon 18:20:33 moi moi 18:20:39 i'll teach you finnish tomorrow 18:20:39 :) 18:20:43 :) 18:20:53 kewl 18:20:56 learn swedish! 18:21:03 though I won't be in tomorrow 18:21:03 Man, a lot of aikidoka on this channel, apparently. Or at least, a lot of people interested in it. 18:21:08 I know a guy who speaks perfect hungarian and swedish 18:21:10 did anyone get the URL for the log of CM meeting? 18:21:11 finnish is hackers langauge 18:21:15 bah 18:21:15 no 18:21:17 swedis 18:21:17 h 18:21:27 * juu speaks perfect finnish, sweidhs, english, but justhas mistakes sometimes 18:21:36 pffff 18:21:39 BigBoyToddy: ? /whois clog? 18:21:44 finnish is also closer to hungarian than swedish is 18:21:44 your swedish sucks 18:21:53 * kc5tja wants to learn German. 18:21:54 but i try to be like you ) 18:21:56 ;) 18:21:57 Altei root, or something akin to that 18:22:03 kc5tja: Deutsch, ja, ja... 18:22:04 finnish ruuls 18:22:05 gtg 18:22:09 sleep 18:22:12 night 18:22:12 lol 18:22:15 Being half German and all, you know.. :D 18:22:21 Hehe 18:22:25 'll tell you why finnnish 18:22:29 * kc5tja is also half Italian, but I never could grok the language that well. 18:22:29 I'm only quarter german 18:22:43 goshawk`: u r aint no right. swdish & finnish r much more close 18:22:57 So, what languages _do_ you know kc5tja? 18:23:02 English 18:23:02 * juu treid to kill irc but hit wrong button 18:23:07 one: language-wise? 18:23:07 That's it. 18:23:13 onetom: Swedish is Indo-European, while Finnish isn't.... 18:23:17 onetom: They don't have many words from us :-) 18:23:22 tha'st why, TheBlueWizard :) 18:23:28 one: I am not referring to geography 18:23:31 They have some old words from the germanic language 18:23:32 theblue: exactly =0 18:23:33 goshawk`: sure sure, not geographicaly certainly :) 18:23:37 but not many =) 18:23:39 bb tomowr 18:23:39 * TheBlueWizard knows some Finnish, but definitely fluent 18:23:40 heh 18:23:42 --- quit: juu ("i never know or remember what my quit message was") 18:23:45 isn't fluent at all 18:23:48 onetom: ok =) 18:23:48 :P 18:23:54 heh, cool 18:23:58 where are you from? 18:24:04 goshawk`: tho, their closeness is affected by the geographical closeness! 18:24:18 I would hope so 18:24:22 o/~ Born and raised in U.S.A...... o/~ 18:24:23 otherwise we have a dry land island =0 18:24:24 Me? I was born and raised in Utica, NY, and am now residing in Oceanside, CA. 18:24:36 I cannot say I've left the country. Ever. 18:24:41 TheBlueWizard: And you know some finnish? 18:24:50 kc5: don't feel bad...I've only gone to Canada and Japan 18:24:50 Oh.. 18:25:04 I've only left Sweden for California and Nevada ;) 18:25:05 before those...never went anywhere...eve IN the country 18:25:10 yup...cuz I got hooked on Finnish thanks to J.R.R.Tolkien's work :) 18:25:15 goshawk`: You at least travelled. I want to visit Germany and Italy some day, but, it doesn't look like I'll ever be able to. 18:25:19 never leftthe north-east except for connecting flights to Japan :P 18:25:23 then I move on to other things 18:25:24 kc5: why? 18:25:40 kc go to norway instead 18:25:45 goshawk`: Just plain lack of time and money. 18:25:48 To sweden :D 18:25:52 TheBlueWizard: do u know finnish music? 18:26:01 goshawk`: Plus, I'm really worried, what with all this world political bullcrap going on too. 18:26:06 norway's immigration is more hostile than sweden's =) 18:26:13 hehe 18:26:15 oh I know some scandinavian music 18:26:19 ABBA! 18:26:20 they also tax heavilly :) 18:26:21 ;) 18:26:26 Sure 18:26:26 onetom: I don't listen to any music 18:26:27 kc5: you'd be safer in Europe than in America for that matter =) 18:26:38 at least if we are to assume the fascist guy in France doesn't start trouble =) 18:26:40 if i get paid $2000 an hour ill emigrate to norway 18:26:45 TheBlueWizard: sanna kurki-suonio, varttina ? 18:26:46 and im talking USD :) 18:26:59 TheBlueWizard: :( how come? r u deaf? 18:27:05 goshawk`: Actually, not necessarily true. However, I've considered moving to Europe, but I can't see me being accepted in their society. Not unless I get hired by a European company. 18:27:06 i4: $2000? You can make so much money in Norway and Sweden right now if you shoot the right market...especially entertainment industries 18:27:20 what's "sanna kurki-suono, varttina"? 18:27:26 Hmm 18:27:27 onetom: yup...I'm deaf 18:27:36 goshawk per hour ? 18:27:38 im emigrating :) 18:27:39 i4: barring a major econmic or political problem....Norway and Sweden are the up and comers for lucrative business =) 18:27:39 Why wouldn't you get accepted? 18:27:55 i4: no...but I am just syaing, htere is a reason to go there besides being paid very very handsome salaries =) 18:28:00 tbw: what'd Tolkien do w/ Finnish? 18:28:00 TheBlueWizard: shit? :/ sanna is a singer & varttina is a "band" 18:28:19 onetom: ah...never heard of such band hehe 18:28:27 rob_ert: Europeans are a closely knit bunch of people. Their countries are so small, and their workforce proportionately smaller, that they wouldn't accept me for job applications or anything the like. Unless it was cleaning toilets or something. 18:28:36 and I don't care for musioc "events" 18:28:39 TheBlueWizard: :))) 18:28:39 rob_ert: I wouldn't be able to get a job in Europe. 18:28:51 Heh 18:28:59 We're not THAT fascistic ;) 18:29:11 And btw, Europe isn't one country 18:29:12 kc5tja: ???? why do u think? 18:29:20 onetom: Experience from people I know who've tried. 18:29:23 I wouldn't mind living in a part of Europe that never really made it to the 20th centur 18:29:24 kc5tja: yeah, with anti-immigration sentiment rising, not a good time to move to Europe.... 18:29:24 rob: who said you were fascist? 18:29:38 Compare Albania to Sweden, and you'll notice some differencies 18:29:40 kc5tja: ah, c 18:29:59 tbw: not any better in the US...although we let certain people in to do our dirty work =) 18:30:19 Well... it might be hard to get a job if you come from some areas in the world 18:30:26 usa lets anyone in 18:30:29 even illegals 18:30:31 onetom: If you think about it, it makes sense. If I were the premiere of a country the size of Texas, I'd be the same way. The local economy is important to the well-being of any country. 18:30:33 An english name is "better" than an arabian 18:30:45 i4: no...not anyone...but yes, *especially* illegals 18:31:08 I know a lot of people who have quite a bit of money who come from countries you'd logically think would be entitled to come here 18:31:19 like Japan, Korea, England, etc. 18:31:31 goshawk`: and we let terrorists in as well (acid tone) 18:31:34 they don't let those people in without "due process" (basically official bribery) 18:31:44 but we do let in the illegals 18:31:52 because cheap labour is a great way to save money 18:32:15 and they don't talk back, because the US ruined their home countries so much that even the bad working conditions here are a BIG improvement 18:32:25 well, time for me to make pizza, eat, then hit the hay....laters all!!! 18:32:38 Wonderful night-time snack... :D 18:32:39 tbw: maybe we can put it on an official form somewhere. "Are you a terrorist? [yes] [no]" 18:32:47 and decide from there =) 18:32:56 * goshawk` wonders how many people would check 'yes' 18:33:06 * TheBlueWizard chuckles re: goshawk`..."Yeah right..." (acid tone) 18:33:37 sorry, i don't mean to offend you, that isn't my intention :P 18:33:46 goshawk`: See, this is the thing. We Americans have this stigma of being so chauvenistic. And yet, while the country's actions are definately to be rescinded (in my opinion), not everyone in the country is this way. Talk to anyone on the street, and if they're not brainwashed by the military, you'll find that most people are against most government/military actions here. 18:34:05 --- join: joseph (user@ip68-3-237-161.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 18:34:13 g'day joe =) 18:34:16 hey =) 18:34:18 bye 18:34:23 bye tb 18:34:23 w 18:34:26 kc5: I think it depends on the part of the country you are in 18:34:30 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:34:32 But because we have a representative republic for a government, we have no choice but to take it. It really makes me sad. 18:34:50 I think I really made him mad :P 18:34:52 Sometimes even embarrased to be an American. 18:35:06 No, you didn't offend me. 18:35:08 kc5tja: just right b4 2days evening a guy from the usa (maryland) left our house 18:35:09 well, I'm embarrased you're an american too 18:35:10 You have a point. 18:35:13 kc5: no...tbw 18:35:15 we should ship you off :) 18:35:16 A lot of people (perhaps rightly so) hate the US. 18:35:25 kc5: thanks, though =) 18:35:34 Hi joseph 18:35:35 kc5tja: he said that he is amazed how friendly r the hungarians 18:35:38 hey rob 18:35:39 Sold any soap? 18:35:43 yeah 18:35:48 few hundred dollars worth today 18:35:53 but we cut it short, slow day 18:35:53 heh 18:35:55 nice 18:35:55 joseph: If it's with your money, I'm not complaining. 18:35:55 and hot as hell 18:36:13 :) 18:36:13 kc5tja: how many amazing stuff-to-eat we have 18:36:15 'cos right now, I'm being royally fscked by the whole "Credit System" we have in this country. 18:36:16 it's always about the free ride 18:36:20 kc5: I have a strong aversion to administrations that put themselves in higher regard than people 18:36:23 kc5tja: he simply love hungary 18:36:49 so what was everyone's impression of chipchuck 18:36:53 joseph: The only way to go -- first class. 18:36:57 or did we go over this already 18:37:06 * kc5tja really enjoyed the interview. 18:37:07 kc5: the credit system is a hoax, if you ask me 18:37:11 It was quite educational and entertaining. 18:37:16 kc5: i agree =) 18:37:17 he types like a seasoned ircer 18:37:24 * kc5tja cracks up :) 18:37:25 not sure if that is a good thing or not 18:37:27 haha 18:37:51 I think it's because he has difficulty seeing the screen. 18:38:03 yeah 18:38:03 He's got major eyesight problems. :( 18:38:11 probably b/c of colorForth :) 18:38:13 the colorForth font is a fair exampel of that 18:38:14 haha 18:38:15 too much color 18:38:19 hah 18:38:23 * onetom were also happy about it, tho it was a lil bit slow :/ 18:38:30 joe and I appear to be the only ones who find that funny 18:38:34 Actually, ColorForth was created to resolve and overcome his eyesight problems. 18:38:51 well, it was his first (I think) irc interview 18:38:55 (among other things) 18:39:04 joe: yeah...he did well, considering 18:39:17 quite efficient, compared to most people 18:39:30 joseph: i also mention we should ask him also about irc-ing 18:39:48 you mean wasting his life? :) 18:39:51 someone get a tcp/ip stack going for colorForth, I'll even try to write a crude irc client for it 18:40:04 you all should just pack up and come with me to a house on a lake 18:40:23 the forth house on forth street 18:40:46 built-in Forth scripting...163 load.../mode #Forth +b *!*@*.aol.com 18:40:49 joseph: Is that where he lives? ;D 18:40:51 I'll run the assembly factory 18:40:58 you guys can forth around 18:41:08 * goshawk` gufaws 18:41:17 nobody ask him if he was using a forth irc client? :) 18:41:26 Amazingly, no. 18:41:27 :) 18:41:59 he uses windows "sparingly" 18:42:04 from what i recall 18:42:07 as does Mr. Fox 18:42:34 I missed the Mr Moore comments 18:42:44 and I know Mr. Fox uses a relatively recent copy, too...because my Mac couldn't read the CD's I ordered 18:42:46 joseph i plan on writing one hehe 18:42:53 forth is a forth irc bot written in isforth 18:42:57 yeah, I'm sure i440r =) 18:43:00 the sockets code is top secretish tho 18:43:01 isIRC 18:43:06 not realy releasable yet 18:43:06 is4thIRC 18:43:10 isirc :) 18:43:15 i4rc ? 18:43:16 isIRC.4th 18:43:17 lol 18:43:24 have a dot in your name 18:43:46 btw, <-- ree 18:43:53 aha 18:44:06 I liked when you rejoined the channel with 'josephmoore' 18:44:12 I thought that was cute 18:44:13 the guy with the %s ." stuff ??? 18:44:19 wanna add that to isforth ?? :) 18:44:25 lol 18:44:30 hmm, when did fox leave? 18:44:40 about 40 minutes ago, I think 18:44:41 hah 18:44:42 why do you ask? 18:44:54 ohh, I didn't even notice he was on 18:44:59 chuck dwarfed his appearance 18:45:02 oh, ok =) 18:45:09 yeah, he was chatting with a few of us 18:45:19 his appearance wasn't even confirmed 18:45:21 he was invited 18:45:21 he didnt think many people would know who he was actually 18:45:23 and stopped by 18:45:30 so who would have known, really? :P 18:45:46 cool guy :P 18:45:57 they should have shared the same nick 18:46:02 thefox? 18:46:08 joa: yes 18:46:14 jeff fox? 18:46:17 yes 18:46:19 foxChuck 18:46:20 neato :) 18:46:20 heh 18:46:36 ChuckFox_VeryFar 18:46:44 yeah, exactly, everyone is justn ow noticing 18:46:46 I440r: that's rather odd... I barely know anything about forth and I know who he is ;) 18:47:00 bbiab 18:47:09 joa: yeah...he's neat! =) 18:47:15 how much forth could chip chuck chuck if chip chuck could chuck forth ? 18:47:24 ouch! 18:47:27 that stings 18:47:33 he is a really nice man! 18:47:33 lots of FML questions 18:47:39 yeah 18:47:59 I would have been mad at questions like that 18:48:33 joseph: why? 18:49:03 markup languages are document types 18:49:08 a friend of mine on efnet was afraid of getting lynched about colorForth webscripting =) 18:49:17 about = about the idea of 18:49:18 joseph: there r a lot of serious fundamental ideas behind FML, tho it doesnt exists... 18:49:21 people are switching to tools for auto generating 18:49:36 does it really matter what document format they are in 18:49:40 I think auto-generation is a great idea 18:49:41 Sorry -- phone call. 18:49:45 * kc5tja is going to a jazz band tonight. 18:49:54 btw, what is iTv 18:50:02 it is the step people took when they decided to actually *use* an assembler instead of coding machine code 18:50:14 on job time 18:50:16 kc5tja: cool, I played in one in high school :P 18:50:37 joseph: it's a startup, with the idea of making inexpensive internet appliance 18:50:42 s 18:50:53 ohh 18:50:53 using Mr. Moore's chips and machineforth at the core 18:50:59 during the ia age 18:50:59 I thought iTV with FORTH kinda died, is it still going? 18:51:09 which was shot down for awhile by dot-com age 18:51:15 iTv ran out of money 18:51:17 ia-age was 1999-2000 18:51:20 so, they are kind of sitting around 18:51:27 BeOS/IA time 18:51:29 yeah, but dot-com took over 18:51:41 they were funded by some grants from some subsidiary of NASA 18:51:42 and strangled its chances, but it is picking up again 18:51:51 Fox was part of the team, too 18:52:04 a lot of that is thoroughly covered at ultratechnology.com 18:52:08 what did you mean about auto generation goshawk 18:52:12 He has photos of the IA from iTV somewhere, kinda weird looking 18:52:36 joe: maybe I misunderstood your statement 18:52:40 is it a big chuck head? :) 18:52:42 try again without my interruption =) 18:52:47 * kc5tja wishes he could play an instrument. 18:52:59 hehe, what did you mean though go 18:52:59 kc5: you can...the triangle 18:53:04 anyone can play the triangle 18:53:09 or if you want avante-garde 18:53:13 the car horn 18:53:19 try the 'mic' 18:53:21 or a chain saw 18:53:23 anyone can play the mic 18:53:25 goshawk`: Not quite the same thing. 18:53:28 you just breath into it 18:53:33 breathe even 18:53:53 OK, what's going on now? I missed the text that scrolled by. (Trying to read and catch up) 18:53:56 I've got a piece of *car horn honk* car 18:54:09 hah 18:54:11 www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 18:54:33 i got a 65 stang :) 18:54:38 http://www.fig.co.uk/ 18:54:43 not the fig I was looking for :P 18:54:52 1980 Mazda RX-7, with the original Wankel rotary engine. 18:55:11 heh, I was referring to the adam sandler song 18:55:11 any1 here, who know how 2 let vim interpret ansi color escapes? 18:55:14 221400 miles on it too. 18:55:29 ctrl+v ctrl+[ 18:55:33 etc 18:55:52 damn...wish they'd fix these damn features in Opera 18:55:57 ctrl+v will catch the next key and not interpret it 18:56:04 joseph: That's for entering the bytes directly; he wants vim to display them. 18:56:15 * kc5tja doesn't think vim can display them, because it doesn't have a built-in terminal emulator. 18:56:45 --- part: nothing left #forth 18:57:08 joseph: hey, i dont wanna write but let vim interpret the already written escapes 18:57:17 joseph: like "less -r" 18:57:20 ohh 18:57:37 not sure, I'm sure you can get it to do something 18:57:39 joseph: but an ansi 2 html converter will also do 18:57:49 maybe try elvis? 18:57:58 was the FIG UK irc meeting today? 18:58:17 there was and when the meeting ended most ofthem came here i believe heh 18:58:22 my browser keeps bailing, so I can't tell from the site 18:58:33 i4: damn. thanks =) 18:58:58 you might try tail -f in another console 18:59:01 while editing vim 18:59:23 don't know if that will display anything 18:59:27 or a while loop 18:59:30 with cat 18:59:32 hehe 18:59:42 use your imagination :) 19:00:12 im using, im using :) 19:00:34 but still cant find any solution 19:01:02 joseph: i wanna convert the priv log w jeff into html 19:01:31 I just use ed 19:01:32 joseph: and show u all. 4 u 2 especially 19:01:55 hell I haven't even bothered learning sed yet 19:02:09 joseph: coz it has some comments implicitly on FML 19:02:22 joseph: sed is cool, awk too! 19:02:25 I don't like the semantic web 19:02:30 yeah I know bigboy 19:03:08 if I learned sed/awk/any regexp awhile ago I would have saved me weeks worth of time by now 19:03:33 well, there are online tuts, but enjoy the work. 19:04:54 yeah, I have a book on it 19:05:01 not sure why I haven't bothered 19:09:53 I cruzed thru the orielly book sed/awk about 13 years ago (man time flies) and it was worth it, I even did it at the Nashville USENIX conference in the evenings (as well as the Perl). I got them done in time to return home and start a UNIX consulting firm, and now I'm lazy and 'retired'. Your right, you can save a lot of time learning tools. 19:10:50 joseph: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/jeff.html 19:10:51 nobody asked chuck about his hardware and software configuration 19:10:57 joseph: read bacwards 19:11:06 have to ask that the 18th I guess 19:12:17 Well, I'm going to get going. 19:12:26 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 19:14:52 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.") 19:17:08 joseph: now it has some colors 19:17:33 ahh, what did you do? 19:17:34 g'n8 19:17:39 later 19:17:59 joseph: just some substitution, nothin interestin 19:19:49 * onetom killed ansi color escapes w %s/^[[[0-9;]*m//g 19:22:14 bye 19:22:16 --- part: joseph left #forth 19:22:16 --- part: MysticOne left #forth 19:44:43 --- part: tcn left #forth 19:44:43 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:44:43 --- quit: hurst (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:47:45 slowly but surely all the temporary visitors evaporate :) 19:47:49 heh 19:59:47 --- part: wog left #forth 19:59:56 someone needs to write some "chuck moore wuz here" graphiti :) 20:34:52 well nite nite #forth 20:35:11 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate") 20:35:39 --- quit: Forth (Remote closed the connection) 20:47:11 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 20:47:17 hello 20:47:41 anyone yet have the transcript from Mr. Moore show and tell come online, URL, anyone? 20:49:31 there's the channel log... taht what you mean? (do /whois clog) 20:53:36 herkamire: tried the URL didn't work, can't find host. Help??? 20:54:14 works now, all ok 21:09:53 you going to post the interview for all the world to see? 21:09:54 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:16:08 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: Rico (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: Latz (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: jim (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: Speuler (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: klooie (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:08 --- quit: aaronl (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:13 --- quit: goshawk` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:13 --- quit: air (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:13 --- quit: joa (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:13 --- quit: deltab (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:16:13 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 21:17:11 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-23.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: Rico (Rico@node-c-1c6a.a2000.nl) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: jim (~jim@12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: Latz (~lac@217.65.99.67) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: joa (~james@59-125-237-24.anc-dial.gci.net) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: Frac (zxsznzo@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52205.vnet.hu) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 21:17:11 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 21:24:05 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 21:25:02 good night 21:55:35 --- nick: goshawk` -> `kwahsog 21:55:36 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:56:13 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 21:57:46 --- join: Shain (~steve@12-236-220-28.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 22:02:42 --- quit: Shain ("Disconnecting") 22:29:07 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:30:41 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 22:41:29 --- part: bob4th left #forth 22:41:49 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:43:13 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-254-8.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 22:44:22 back to the nothingness from whence they came 22:44:38 or back to efnet 22:51:40 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-23.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 23:06:58 --- quit: Klaw () 23:14:38 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:24:07 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:24:48 --- quit: bob4th () 23:25:09 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:27:45 --- join: bob4th (~bob4th@adsl-63-197-120-243.dsl.sktn01.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:28:45 How can I get a transcript of Chuck's Interview? 23:31:35 bob, try http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.04 23:32:04 Thanks 23:37:10 --- quit: bob4th () 23:54:24 --- quit: aaronl (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.05.04