00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.03 00:00:15 Man, this download is taking forever. :( 00:01:05 which download ? 00:01:16 I'm downloading a video from ultratechnology.com 00:01:20 oh 00:01:20 machine forth xor. 00:01:21 heh 00:01:34 Jeff Fox may be an aikido instructor, but he sure is boring to listen to. :D 00:01:48 I'd hate to be in one of his aikido classes; the students would all fall asleep. 00:02:01 jeff fox does akido ? 00:02:31 Yeah -- or did at least. 00:02:36 i think chuck moore is going to invie jeff fox for saturday 00:02:50 He's a founding member of the ubigitous United States Aikido Federation, co-founded with Tohei sensei. 00:03:20 so was he the first to use a coal operated computer? ;) 00:03:37 cool 00:04:04 kc5tja: those videos should come down ~20k/s 00:04:14 kc you gona be a permanant feature of #forth now ? 00:04:17 31.9kbps for me. 00:04:25 I440r: I don't know. Maybe. 00:04:38 If the signal to noise ratio remains high enough. 00:04:40 you would be most welcome to wast your time in here any time :) 00:04:44 lol 00:04:49 kc5tja: and its forever 4 u!?!?!? 00:05:00 kc5tja: damn it 00:05:05 the channel has dead times but they are getting less and less nowadays 00:05:09 * kc5tja is on a T1, dude... :) 00:05:22 33.6k here. 00:05:24 because isforth is now a working forth and because the channel has more ppl i it 00:05:27 woo hoo :| 00:05:34 man i miss my dsl :( 00:05:41 384/383 00:05:43 loved it 00:05:48 Hehe :) 00:05:49 cant even make 56k now :( 00:05:55 Well, I think I'm going to go home now. 00:06:12 kc me 2 00:06:18 way past bed time :) 00:06:33 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:06:48 I440r: but u still talk alot, what if u could get ur dsl back!?! yay ;) 00:07:02 k 00:07:20 sleep well eeyore 00:07:25 i would be able to talk AND download pr0n :) 00:07:26 lol 00:07:48 dont download! do it ;) 00:08:01 nooo not w me ;p 00:08:04 good idea 00:08:08 erm 00:08:12 another good idea :P 00:08:18 erm. whers your gf :) 00:08:19 lol 00:08:20 neway 00:08:20 :DD 00:08:22 im outa here :P 00:08:32 |-/zzzZZZZ 00:08:34 revealed too much I440r? 00:08:52 eh ? 00:08:56 no 00:08:59 silly pun 00:09:02 nobody worth revealing to :) 00:09:06 neway - nite nite 00:09:22 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate") 00:10:49 --- quit: GilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 01:23:43 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-51-10.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 01:40:23 check this out http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/2867/Support.html 01:47:08 davidw: wadda hell is that picnic day? 01:48:01 it's a fistulated cow 01:48:17 a cow with an opening into its stomach 01:49:55 it's pretty...uh....impressive 01:50:49 i saw it, but how does that relate 2 a so called picnic day? 01:51:25 &what ignorance would b melted by that? 01:51:27 oh, I guess they trot out the cow 01:51:36 and the animal rights activists got pissed off 01:51:42 I don't really care, I just like the picture.... 01:51:55 :)) 01:52:04 wow, a hit on my website from senegal 01:52:10 its really impressive, right 01:52:17 I had ones from iran and the faeroe islands last week 01:52:42 that must b the same person 01:52:55 traveling through strange places :) 01:53:04 what is ur website anyway? 01:54:18 www.dedasys.com 01:54:27 www.dedasys.com/davidw for my personal site 02:23:00 wow, u maintain nice & serious packages 02:23:21 even megahal, hmm 02:28:32 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:28:58 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-83-233.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:31:35 I don't do much work on megahal, unfortunately 02:31:41 I don't have the time 02:31:47 I do accept patches, though:-) 03:24:25 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:25:53 rob_ert: where did you learn about those vga registers? 03:31:24 --- join: berndp (~berndp@194.139.17.47) joined #forth 03:31:39 --- quit: berndp (Client Quit) 04:08:27 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 04:21:40 hi fare 04:34:46 davidw: Uhmm... don't remember... I guess I saw some example 04:34:57 davidw: Like with everything else I know ;-) 04:54:17 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 04:54:17 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:22:21 sif :) 05:23:20 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:23:51 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 06:11:53 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:11:59 Hi 06:12:10 hey 06:12:18 what's up? 06:12:56 Not too much 06:13:01 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 06:13:08 Hi Speuler 06:15:17 hi the_rob. 06:15:20 g'd morning 06:15:53 Bah... can't you ever come out of your morning= 06:15:56 s/=/?/ 06:16:19 ask a canadian citien about his opinion. 06:16:27 citizen ... 06:17:08 besides, i just got up 06:17:20 Yuck 06:17:24 At 15:15 :) 06:17:43 twas late tis this morning 06:17:51 (yesterday afternoon :) 06:18:31 about a time even a canadian would say good morning 06:18:59 Canadians don't count. 06:19:16 good afternoon 06:19:20 i heard one counting once. he said "one two three..." 06:19:28 they DO count 06:20:35 albeit, slowly, i have to admit 06:33:01 --- part: MrDinner left #forth 06:33:41 Well done, Speuler, now you scared away MrDinner! 06:54:17 * Speuler considers going back to sleep 06:54:37 Uhm 06:54:42 :) 07:00:49 is 'ms' ANS? 07:02:32 I have no idea :-) 07:03:04 yes 07:03:10 that video mode stuff was pretty cool... it would be fun to do more things in that vein 07:03:11 FACILITY EXTENSION wordset :) 07:03:25 I was actually able to write a bit of code that impressed my girlfriend, with that;-) 07:03:43 (bright, blinking red text) 07:04:10 cool! 07:05:50 ms ( u -- ) (wait at least u milliseconds) 07:08:09 damn, I need to build that into my pforth system 07:08:15 ms ( u -- ) install specified version of MicroSoft operating system. 07:09:03 I wonder if any forth has that word built-in. 07:09:10 gforth 07:09:14 ;-) 07:09:23 It's not THAT big and bloated, is it? 07:19:39 Is there any small forth in ANSI C? 07:20:43 ficl 07:20:45 pforth 07:22:14 * rob_ert will try to compile these in Minix... 07:22:23 I hope they don't contain any asm :) 07:22:26 what's minix got to do with anything? 07:22:31 I don't think they do 07:22:34 It's a toy. 07:22:36 :-) 07:22:51 can you run it from a floppy? 07:23:08 I've always been a bit interested....it should be easier to understand than linux 07:23:20 Well, it has 9 installation floppies 07:23:25 With source and all 07:24:01 oh... uhrm 07:24:03 sucks 07:24:19 I need like 5 small wimpy computers for stuff like that 07:24:25 I'm having fun with ecos though 07:24:28 it's very manageable 07:24:57 What's ecos? 07:25:16 And btw, you could run Minix from bochs or something 07:25:29 that's a good point 07:25:33 bochs is truly cool 07:25:40 sources.redhat.com/ecos 07:25:47 * rob_ert checks. 07:26:07 http://sources.redhat.com/ecos (I'm running xchat and I'm lazy ;) 07:40:20 --- quit: tathi (Remote closed the connection) 07:41:57 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:42:43 Welcome back 07:44:32 heh 07:45:09 I really should bind my script that shuts down X to something that's harder to hit by accident 07:48:13 Hehe 07:52:59 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear") 08:39:42 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix2.panix.com) joined #forth 08:40:53 Hi :) 08:40:59 hey hey =) 08:41:03 how are you, today? 08:41:18 Fine :) Trying to get piping to work... hrmm 08:41:45 neat 08:43:29 As long as it doesn't work - no :) 08:44:01 piping in what? 08:44:46 My little toy OS 08:45:09 oh, pretty neat 08:46:23 Hmm... if I get it to work, I guess I'll have a nice platform to play with hardware and so... 08:48:18 that would be neat 08:49:04 sorry if I don't sound enthusiastic...I am dragging my heels on pretty much everything today 08:49:09 do tell me when I am a little less fatigued :P 08:49:18 me = me more 08:50:25 Heh 08:50:43 I didn't expect you to become enthusiastic either ;) 08:50:58 well, it is common courtesy at the very least to be more inquisitive 08:51:22 goshawk`: will u b here tomorrow? 08:51:25 :) Anyway, it's kinda one of those script kiddie OSs... 08:51:53 onetom: yes =) 08:52:00 rob: hah, how so? 08:52:14 goshawk`: have u already prepared questions? 08:53:27 Hmm.. I think I found the bug 08:53:44 goshawk`: I mean, SAS OS without any structure... it's not to be taken too seriously 08:54:29 Yup, that was the bug... 08:54:39 one: no, not as of yet...Mr. Fox answered most of my questions a number of months ago 08:54:49 so I am mostly interested in observing the show =) 08:55:00 * rob_ert is seinding a message from one of his test computer to another, where it's piped to another process and printed to screen. 09:05:10 goshawk`: there wont b a real show without questions :/ 09:05:59 are there no questions? 09:06:06 or is that a bit of soft sell? =) 09:07:26 goshawk`: not kiddin, we still dont have questions 09:08:44 hah 09:08:45 ouch 09:09:08 Tomorrow is the big day, right? 09:10:12 the notifications on c.l.f didn't specify that questions had to be mailed 09:10:20 of course you won't get any questions 09:10:23 as far as people are concerned 09:10:30 they think they can just drop by and ask away 09:10:31 =) 09:10:41 Hehe 09:20:10 goshawk`: sure sure, but adhoc questions r usually a bit dumb, arent they? 09:22:29 we should take this event a bit more serious, ithink 09:22:51 chuck wont come here 2 frequently, iguess 09:23:03 Heh 09:23:05 (unless we attract him so much somehow :) 09:23:31 How? Include colorforth in his mIRC client? :D 09:32:36 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m165.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 09:32:52 Hi :-) 09:32:58 hi rob_ert 09:33:07 do you run pcemu? 09:33:28 Uh, no...What's that? 09:33:34 Another PC emulator? 09:33:40 yes. 09:34:28 Is it good and free? 09:34:42 yeah I just got it. 09:34:50 how's it compare to bochs? 09:35:34 what is bochs like? 09:35:43 It's....quite good. 09:35:46 I'm trying to run fpc in freebsd without having to boot to dos. 09:35:54 Hehe 09:36:09 * rob_ert uses Linux, which means he can use DOSemu =) 09:36:11 i gotta go 09:36:42 bye 1tom 09:37:12 how do I work with bochs? 09:37:47 GilbertBSD: there is probably a freebsd package.... just install it, set it up, and go 09:37:59 I have installed it. 09:38:11 now I have to wade through the bleeping docs 09:40:15 what do you guys have bochs set up for? 09:44:07 can I use bochs with my c partition? 09:44:13 umm dos partition? 09:44:20 or does it have to be on a floppy? 09:44:50 Uhm 09:44:59 You can create a disk image 09:45:01 or use a device 09:45:16 That's what make UNIX rock so hard :) 09:45:20 I want to use a device. 09:45:27 Then do so 09:45:31 :) 09:45:35 /dev/hdwhatever 09:45:36 The docs are only 2 lines long. 09:45:39 Hehe 09:45:47 Read the bochs.rc file 09:45:52 ah that. 09:45:54 It's pretty well-commented 09:45:58 or check its homepage 09:46:01 bochs.sf.net 09:46:03 more docs there 09:47:26 can I see your bochsrc file? 09:47:40 sans the comments? 09:47:43 Hmm 09:48:02 Doesn't it come anyone with? 09:48:42 I want to see a working sample. 09:49:13 Hmm... the default one is usually working, and btw, my bochs crashed all the time, so I uninstalled it :=) 09:50:38 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust145.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:50:42 Hi 09:50:48 hi I440r 09:50:56 GilbertBSD: For help with bochs, ask in #osdev 09:50:57 do you run bochs or pcemu i44? 09:51:05 ok i fixed my sockets code 09:51:07 and ill try get the bot fixed too and get it in here for the big event :) 09:51:08 nope 09:51:13 A few guys there have even started their own emulator 09:51:20 since they got tired of bochs 09:51:20 cool 09:51:30 What bot, I440r? 09:51:49 wait they g ot tired of bochs and you sent me there? they're gonna eat me alive! 09:52:00 Hehe 09:52:01 Nah 09:52:11 eks, slowcoder... and some other guys 09:52:13 air I think 09:52:44 And... they don't bite. 09:52:48 At least most of them don't, 09:53:05 heh air doesnt suck 09:53:14 but he needs to actually start CODING heh 09:53:25 ;) 09:53:27 I440r: do you run pcemu? 09:53:38 nope 09:53:41 oh there is a bochs room 09:53:45 i dont run anything other than debian :) 09:54:01 so how do you run fpc? 09:54:09 oh by the way, I liked it. 09:54:15 its done everything in SF so far. 09:54:36 I just don't wanna run it in dos :( 09:55:03 Shell to a Linux computer with DOSemu ;) 09:55:17 Or hack FreeBSD. 09:55:22 no thats impractical for me. 09:55:35 I need fpc/bochs because I can't hack yet ;) 09:55:39 I was joking ;) 09:55:52 vmware! 09:55:57 thats what I should have used. 09:55:59 lol 09:58:23 i got my forth sockets working again hehe - but the damned bot segfaults when it connects :P 10:34:12 --- join: kc5tja (kc5tja@stampede.org) joined #forth 10:34:49 hi kc 10:34:54 Howdy 10:35:09 having a blast convincing pcemu to work for me. 10:35:21 we haven't decided on wages yet. 10:35:45 Heheh :) 10:35:51 GilbertBSD: What do you do? 10:35:56 Nothing. 10:37:30 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~BigBoyTod@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 10:37:59 Hi there, looking forward to interacting with the inventor of FORTH, Charles Moore. Go Chuck Go! 10:38:16 are you going to attack him? 10:38:31 GilbertBSD: attack him with what? 10:38:43 Insipid questions perhaps? 10:39:04 GilbertBSD: Insipid? What does that mean 10:39:09 never mind. 10:39:21 he is coming tomorrow though. 10:39:41 hi toddy heh 10:39:43 kct hi 10:39:50 erm kc5 lol 10:40:02 channel gets active and i gotta go - typical :P 10:40:05 that is nice, I heard it on the USENET, and it is a great opportunity since I have read so much about this guy and have emailed with him a couple times. Great fella. 10:40:35 see ya 440r 10:41:10 todd do you run pcemu or bochs? 10:41:33 Neither, I have ported about 13 FORTH implementations (and working on my own) to the BeOS. 10:41:56 PFE is what I use mostly. 10:42:10 do you have a freebsd port of fpc? 10:42:11 fpc is dos only lol 10:42:14 its 16 bit 10:42:29 yeah but it doesn't like freebsd much. 10:42:30 im gona be finishing building this mauser in a min and test firing it 10:42:40 back 10:42:43 re I440r 10:42:45 440r right ON!!! 10:42:47 BOOM! 10:43:01 I want to build a Barrett 50 cal. 10:43:17 batf will be here tuesday to give us the lisences to manucature arms and manufacture ammo :) 10:43:38 the gun smithing lisence is the grandaddy of them all. your automaticaly an ffl :) 10:43:43 Is there a lot of gun freaks like me on this group? 10:43:44 neway. kerbanga :) 10:43:49 ffl? 10:43:49 just me 10:43:59 ffl = federal firearms lisence 10:44:01 440r, that is great. I live in a town with a gunsmithing school. 10:44:10 it allows you to transfer ownership of a gun 10:44:12 I am signing up this fall and taking the 3 year program. 10:44:19 :o), boom baby boom. 10:44:31 big boy cool!!! - we gotta chag guns sometime :) 10:44:46 if chuch does a sneek visit while im out tie him down till i get back heh 10:44:50 bbl 10:44:52 ./idle 10:44:54 I'll be here more often than not now, if this group is cool and stuff, I'll find out soon enough. 10:44:57 see ya. 10:45:11 bigboy i started the channel for my isforth project 10:45:17 we aren't cool 10:45:21 but the channel is totally unmoderated 10:45:25 I'm the newbie in the room Big Boy. 10:45:27 440r, I'm wondering if I did a porn of isforth to beos. 10:45:31 we smother infants with plastic shopping bags 10:45:39 you won't like us 10:45:41 440r, that is great, I HATE MODERATION. 10:45:45 A porn of isforth? ;D 10:45:54 i think he meant a port :) 10:46:02 goshawk`: I like that much! 10:46:08 bigboy if you can port isforth to beos id be extatic! 10:46:10 PORN, spoo, port. 10:46:23 but your only allowd to change the syscalls. not any of the primatives 10:46:28 hey hey i4 10:46:30 440r, not a problem, if it is pretty standard stuff. Using ANSI C? 10:46:37 you cant have any more or any less primatives except you add them to the syscall file:) 10:46:38 goshawk`: I don't -- I prefer to let them incinerate inside cars with all the windows rolled up in Arizona. 10:46:52 bigboy erm isforthis written ENTIRELY in assembler 10:46:57 kc5tja: this group is full of some strange folks, nice! 10:47:01 using syscalls for all i/o and its x86 only 10:47:04 bbl 10:47:12 440r, that is going to be very, very hard to port, not my cup of tea. 10:47:31 kc5: you topped me with a dose of reality =) 10:47:35 x86 is not bad to do, but pure assembly is just too much work for my brain at this time in the life of this guy. 10:47:37 Hehe 10:47:49 I'll be back, in a humvee. 10:47:57 Nice to find you guys, see ya. 10:48:00 Pure assembly is very easy to port if you follow some basic rules, like putting all machine-specific stuff in unique assembly source files. 10:48:07 BigBoyToddy: it's a pain, too, if you use a lot of different machines 10:48:15 kc5 which is exactly what i did :) 10:48:24 kc5tja: well, if there's a lot of it, it gets difficult 10:48:32 Yes and no. 10:48:38 No worse than porting a badly written C program. 10:48:38 yes, more code is more work 10:48:54 No worse than porting a badly written C program. 10:49:19 Since there are so very many C compilers out there, I spend my time where I get the best and MOST results. C ports is where I have spent my time. Besides, with all due respect, I HATE x86 assembly. My brain in 13 years has never been able to wrap around it well. 10:49:44 Badly written anything, Smalltalk, ObjC or otherwise is just as bad as well written C++ code :o) 10:49:44 Well, I never said I *like* x86 assembly. 10:49:47 It's tolerable to me. 10:50:05 cool..this vga stuff is fun 10:50:07 680x0 is the best assembly language I've written code for, and MIPS is a very close second. 10:50:10 I can fuck around with the cursor 10:50:24 take care...sleep time 10:51:14 68k is good, I did that almost 13 years ago also, on the mac, and it was painful. Read leventhals book(s), and they were painful, 68k is okay but too much cisc, PPC is my flavor of the day, but no real good hardware using it, macs now suck because of price, and in part performanc.e 10:51:51 BigToddy you are as insatiable as all the other forthers here. 10:52:00 PowerPC and MIPS are very close to each other. The two assembly syntaxes are nearly identical. 10:52:02 does forth simply make one ultra picky? 10:52:28 BigBoyToddy: ppc's aren't that bad in the performance department 10:52:28 GilbertBSD: No, some people are just picky. 10:52:35 I went the opposite to OO tech, using NeXTStep and OpenStep for 10+ years, liking it much, doing Stack based Postscript and doing GUI and DBMS GUI. 10:52:36 Hard earned experience also helps. 10:52:48 although price/performance is intel right now because of the quantity... 10:53:33 Smalltalk is my love of life, really. FORTH is of serious interest to me because I have worked the industry for 20+ years now, and find that the complexity model of solving problems is not working at all, and only makes me, and others frustrated with the results. FORTH, with some abstract but simple GUI generalize model on top is what I'm considering. 10:53:40 davidw: PowerPCs lag behind x86 big-time in performance because there isn't enough demand for high-clock rate chips. 10:54:33 BigBoyToddy: Smalltalk is nice, but it's difficult to get started with for me. It took me two years to learn how to create a subclass in it, let alone figure out what the remainder of the system components were for. 10:54:36 big boy have you tried Squeak? 10:54:52 However, that being said, Smalltalk (and its immediate successor, Self) is an excellent language. 10:55:18 PPCs SMOKE x86 only in a few benchmarks, mostly the specialized graphics altivec department. In all, the new HAMMER stuff that AMD is coming out with interests me some. But PPC is really got potential if ONLY Moto would figure out how to manufacture and deliver promised goods. IBM is the G3 king, and if G5 or so would come out, I would be ALL over the PPC again. 10:55:57 BigBoy have you run squeak yet? 10:56:01 BigBoyToddy: The most modern PPC can't touch the most modern Athlon in performance. I've seen the specs, I've seen the comparisons. 10:56:02 ppc's have some other good things, though 10:56:03 Self is nothing like Smalltalk really, it is classless, behaviour based. I would not consider Self remotely close, but Mahoney (or whoever) did port Morphic to Squeak, which is really nice and also away from the stale and old MVC of Smalltalk. 10:56:09 my tibook has 4/5 hours of battery life 10:56:26 Motorola nor IBM have the $$$ to dump into PowerPC development for Apple. PowerPC's big market is embedded, where speed isn't critical. 10:56:46 Yes, didn't Cisco embrace PPC now for their new generation of routers. 10:56:51 I think so 10:56:56 big boy whats your real name? 10:57:12 440r, I like to keep private names private :o) 10:57:20 Hope you understand. 10:57:27 aha heh - i was just wondering who you were on CLF :) 10:57:42 Same, I use the same name. 10:57:44 LOL 10:57:47 * kc5tja would still love to have a PowerPC box though... But I can't justify having one right now. Too much expenses as it is. :( 10:57:49 aha 10:57:52 your real name is Toddy. 10:58:02 exactly. 10:58:10 Now I"m just bigger in real life. :o) 10:58:30 bigger than the 8x16 font I suppose :) 10:58:34 Todd Nathan, it would appear... 10:58:45 There is a great company (not great in the sense of insanely great) that does a G4 micro box, it is yellow, and they have YellowDog Linux on it too, it is expensive, but really nice package. 10:58:46 My name is available in public record. 10:58:54 davidw: it would appear. 10:59:16 I seem to recall hearing about that 10:59:27 for a non-laptop, I wouldn't mind not paying money to apple 10:59:34 BigBoyToddy: Yeah, that's what I was thinking of running on PowerPC. It's ideal for Unix, since that's what the CPU was designed to run (from its POWER-I heritage). 10:59:49 It is quite expensive, like 3 grand, but really nice little package. Right direction, wishing they would make the dynabook version of it so I can have Squeak and portability and power all in one. 11:00:15 Toddy do you like squeak? 11:00:22 if so, wtf are the tutorials on it? 11:00:26 Yes, and no. 11:00:31 Not me. Apple has screwed over developers more times than I can count. Apple deserves the worst death it can imagine. I especially refuse to forgive them for destroying the clone market... 11:01:10 I like squeak because it is controlled by the inventor and his clan (alan kay and company), no because Alan and company have to find jobs every 3-4 years as 'researchers' because they are unemployable (too damn smart and good for thier own good). They are now 'looking' for work. 11:01:24 Squeak isn't Apple. 11:01:34 I didn't say it was. 11:01:39 Oh, soryr. 11:01:40 I thought Alan Kay was working for Disney? 11:01:44 Squeak isn't run by Alan Kay either -- it's someone else. 11:01:47 Hey left 9 months ago. 11:02:08 People like Alan Kay just plain need to form their own companies, and be done with it. :) 11:02:09 I think Dr. Kay might want to talk to CM. 11:02:09 Squeak is the implementation of Alans Smalltalk80 work, revisited. 11:02:12 they might have a lot in common. 11:02:29 good programmers don't necessarily make good entrepreneurs 11:02:37 I think if Alan and Chuck got together, it would be a match made in heaven or hell. I hope the former. 11:02:38 I thought it was Adele Goldberg's Smalltalk 80? 11:02:41 BigBoyToddy: Yes, I know that -- however, Alan doesn't actually *maintain* Squeak (though I understand he's contributed some code to it) 11:02:50 ok guys ill bbl - gotta get offline 11:02:56 Bye I440r 11:02:56 Probably hell. 11:03:01 Chuck likes to be difficult for everyone. 11:03:02 Alan made up the language, Adele just spearheaded the project at Xerox Parc, she was project manager. 11:03:07 440r, later. 11:03:13 ll8er :) 11:03:22 Chuck has been fine with me, limited exposure to him, maybe time will tell :o) 11:03:35 I like him, and his wife is nice too, a wool spinner like me :o) 11:03:37 and then it was assumed the language was so obvious that they made the crappiest tutorials for it. 11:03:38 By "difficult," I mean he abhores any and all things he thinks is complex. 11:03:44 no wonder java is more popular. 11:03:46 Which is his biggest virtue, and his biggest flaw. 11:04:23 GilbertBSD: There are lots of Smalltalk tutorials, and a few for Squeak (which again is ONLY Smalltalk 80, so you can find LOTS of tutorials on it). The morphic stuff IMHO has been lacking, the tutorials for it need to come along for sure. 11:04:27 * kc5tja likes Chuck too, though I've never actually conversed with him directly. But his ideas are compatible with mine. 11:04:43 kc5tja: Non-bloated systems? =) 11:04:46 But, if you understand OO well, and you get the jist of the system browser, then exploration and discovery are the key. 11:05:13 ah then one might as well build the whole thing from scratch! 11:05:22 so that you will know exactly what you want and need! 11:05:32 rob_ert: The whole "less is more" concept in general. I value simplicity over complexity, and I'm not afraid to break compatibility when introducing new features while keeping things simple. 11:05:33 Remember, Smalltalk80 can be stripped down, bloated or somewhere in between, so basically it is just like a FORTH system that has lots of stuff loaded/defined, it too is bloated. It is the job of the programmer to strip things out that are not needed. 11:05:34 you won't have to go hunting for it. 11:06:02 kc5tja: I like compatibility... but I do like simplicity more. 11:06:32 Well, I seem to be talking to myself. LOL, which isn't uncommon. Talk to you guys later, it is nice to find a group that are civil and smart. Take care! 11:06:35 bbl 11:06:40 Bye 11:06:44 Compatibility is a great goal to achieve, and I like compatibility too. But where it's demonstrably superior to break compatibility, I'm all for it. Fortunately, such paradigm shifts, if you will, are relatively rare. 11:06:57 73 BigBoyToddy 11:07:01 kc5tja: bingo! 11:07:10 What does "73" stand for? 11:07:18 kc don't you think if things are simple enough, they will be compatible? 11:07:24 "Nice talking with you! Talk with you later, and don't forget your Winchester." 11:07:26 rob_ert: a quantity 11:07:32 Oh, BeOS and NeXT are two that come to mind that had breaking-away ability and got stuck in revenue generating licensing fees. Which of course meant compatability. 11:07:38 davidw: Bah ;) 11:07:40 Oh, I will remember. 11:08:05 GilbertBSD: No, not always. Design and Design For Re-use are two separate, though related, practices. 11:08:06 kc5tja: I suppose you're not a great fan of the PC design? 11:08:10 --- join: SamannthaBrooke (~MINZKLCM@217.59.205.30) joined #forth 11:08:13 8,4 UPDATED 30/04 - Add 21 Full Movies ( 16.4 GB ) - Punheteiros HQ (12,0 www.punheteiroshq.kit.net 8,4) UPDATED 30/04 - FULL MOVIEZ : "Nurses 3", "Back Seat" (vol.: 2,3,4,8), "Blondes", "Nineteen College Girls", "Swing Teens Vol 4" 325 Mb, "Britney Spears Fuck Full" 132 Mb, "Pscycho Pussy" 270 Mb; PhotoZone : Playboy, Sexy, Penthouse (Full - All Editions). JOIN NOW 12,0 www.punheteiroshq.kit.net 11:08:16 Hrm 11:08:17 Idiot 11:08:18 --- part: SamannthaBrooke left #forth 11:08:25 Nice spam bot. 11:08:25 rob_ert: Not in its earlier incarnations, no. 11:08:40 kc5tja: What do you mean? 11:08:47 kc5tja: "earlier incarnations"? 11:08:56 Modern PCs have no resemblence to earlier PCs. 11:09:07 The PC, XT, and AT systems were abominations. 11:09:11 no? except for the loads of backwards compatibility shit? 11:09:15 Where? 11:09:20 My computer doesn't have a lick of an ISA slot. 11:09:29 mine does 11:09:33 The only thing that is "backward compatible" is the x86 it runs. 11:09:34 BTW, is there a SETI-FORTH group I can join. I have some hardware here sitting doing much of nothing. 11:09:36 am I the only one attempting to run pcemu in the world? 11:09:50 toddy is it a Cray? 11:09:59 GilbertBSD: nope, it is a Gray III 11:10:02 LOL :o) 11:10:05 hahahaha 11:10:09 G3 11:10:19 GilbertBSD: it seems so; I tried to run DOSEMU under Linux many times in the past, and every time, it failed miserably. I ended up with a DOS box that had a whopping 1.4MB harddrive on it. :( In other words, useless. 11:10:21 GilbertBSD: I guess so... how does it differ from bochs? 11:10:40 davidw: the bleeping thing is not working :| 11:10:49 I have G3s around, and a few AMD 1.4 Ghz, they are doing much of nothing, so I guess I would give them to someone locally but I'm not local, I'm in the mountains of CO and way away from civilization (and loving it). 11:11:10 the chips or the computers? 11:11:14 BigBoyToddy: you know bdale garbee by any chance? 11:11:20 BigBoyToddy: I envy you, especially as an astronomer and ham radio operator. :) 11:11:25 BigBoyToddy: you could mail them to me:-) 11:11:27 I can crank SETI with them, and have been, now figured we could start a SETI or RC5 group of FORTHers and hopefully write the client software in FORTH, now that would be fun. 11:11:46 davidw: nope, I don't, is he a FORTH guru in CO? 11:11:47 An interesting idea... :) 11:11:52 toddy how about distributed forth? 11:12:02 a Beowulf with forth as the kernel? 11:12:07 BigBoyToddy: he knows forth, lives in the mountains of colorado... 11:12:22 he's into amateur satellites 11:12:37 Ahhh...another ham... ;D 11:12:42 I think so 11:12:44 davidw: I could mail them to you, but I think the 'local' solution is better, I may even get some money for them (I built them myself for cheap 9 months ago, now I'm broke and need the cash :o). 11:13:04 ah, I see:-) 11:13:29 * davidw doesn't have a big cash stash himself 11:13:30 I need to get my ham license, and QSL in the meantime. I like pirate radio, and hope we see more of it also, albeit I know hams hate pirates. BOOHOO, pirates are cool, the freedom, it is all our airwaves, IMHO> 11:13:40 toddy you are an ubber programmer, $$ shouldn't be a problem man! 11:14:02 I hate pirates only if they interfere with my QSOs. 11:14:18 Pirates who understand that we're licensed, and therefore have first-dibs on amateur RF space, is fine by me. 11:14:28 But the odds of that happening is approaching zero. 11:14:39 ah but they are pirates because they don't wanna understand 11:14:52 GilbertBSD: I'm a dude that is tired of programming communities that don't stick/stay around, and also tired of the BS in society. I'm antisocial as get out now, and don't like the world any more. Now you understand why I'm at 8000 feet, nobody withing miles, and basically LOVE to shot things that move much faster than a toad. 11:15:15 ah ha. 11:15:22 I live in a bunker. 11:15:23 eh room. 11:15:26 kc5tja: exactly, I think it is about respect. and unfortunately, respect doesn't come free any more. 11:15:35 Nope. 11:15:41 kc5tja: I also believe without doubt, that FCC is a criminal organization. 11:16:08 * kc5tja isn't so much anti-social, as I just don't want to be bothered. I neither like nor dislike this world. I just like nature, and I don't want to see it spoilt by light pollution and noise pollution, let alone the other forms of pollution. 11:16:29 peopollution? 11:16:31 Most pirates do. :) 11:16:48 kc5tja: I'm a pirate supporter, not a pirate. 11:16:53 There is a HUGE difference. 11:17:04 BigBoyToddy: Ahh, c'mon -- admit it! ;D 11:17:08 * kc5tja runs 11:17:08 :) 11:17:19 arrrr, matey 11:17:20 Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!! 11:17:23 BigBoyToddy hits kc5tja with a loogie! :o) 11:17:35 * kc5tja dodges. "You missed." 11:17:39 hehehehe 11:18:17 Oh well, got to go now, lunch time :o) snarf the local berrries with the bears. We have too many bears here, time to shoot some legally. :o) 11:18:22 boom, boom, click, boom. 11:18:24 ltr. 11:18:47 laters 11:18:57 Bye 11:19:01 bye 11:19:15 OK, now I'm bored. 11:19:33 the best way to emulate dos is to actually have dos :( 11:19:40 Yup 11:19:48 Get another computer and a boot disk =) 11:20:05 I don't have any floppy drives. 11:20:30 GilbertBSD: have you tried with bochs? 11:20:37 no. 11:20:50 the config thing is getting to me. 11:21:02 I just want to get fpc up and finish Starting Forth :( 11:21:10 I didn't want to deal with all of that just yet. 11:21:14 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 11:22:26 davidw: do you have time to help me with a quick and dirty setup? 11:23:54 nm I have some 386's in my basement ... I'll just get them instead. 11:23:57 bye. 11:23:59 --- part: GilbertBSD left #forth 11:25:06 Something tells me that he won't like Forth all that much once he actually learns it. :D 11:29:59 Heheh -- that's too funny. 11:30:09 Christian spambots...good grief. :) 11:58:49 --- join: forther (~chatzilla@dsl-207-213-215-202.coastside.net) joined #forth 11:58:49 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:01:10 --- quit: goshawk` (".") 12:01:43 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix2.panix.com) joined #forth 12:09:24 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIV-12.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 12:09:37 hi 12:10:08 hi 12:14:50 hi 12:15:12 rob_ert: http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/S.Weijgers/FreeVGA/home.htm 12:15:16 this is a pretty good guide 12:15:27 I think I've seen that one before :-) 12:15:32 But thanks, I'll check 12:15:58 davidw: What's that freeVGA stuff about? 12:16:04 hardware level programming for the VGA? 12:16:09 yeah 12:16:34 I took an interest in it the other day, as a way to test my forth hack's inb/outb instructions 12:16:55 Hasn't been updated in three years, though... :( 12:17:19 has the vga standard? 12:17:30 Hah, good point 12:17:42 Isn't it about newer standards, too? 12:19:24 hm... difficult decision: do I want to spend 10:00 GMT in a bar with the "Estelle Angolaan!" party or with the Moore interview? 12:19:39 davidw: I would expect to see things pertaining to modern video cards posted, at least. Especially since they expressed interested in dedicated hardware coprocessors and such. 12:30:13 --- quit: XeF4 ("töihin") 12:38:24 Hmmm... 12:38:54 I'm thinking of eschewing this virtual machine, and going for a different VM. The assembler, for some reason, isn't properly handling macros via : definitions... :( 12:39:05 It's very, very, very annoying. 12:39:50 It's emiting the operands for the instructions, but not the instruction words themselves. *sigh* 12:47:05 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-Sherbrooke-ppp79781.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 12:47:13 Hello there 12:47:28 Play with sif and gforth, woss. 12:47:32 They're our playmates. 12:47:40 heh 12:47:41 (forth bots) 12:47:49 ok 12:48:09 gforth: : x 3 0 do ." God is coming!" loop ; x 12:48:13 rob_ert: God is coming!God is coming!God is coming! 12:48:16 Bah 12:48:23 gforth: : x 3 0 do cr ." God is coming!" loop ; x 12:48:27 rob_ert: God is coming! 12:48:27 rob_ert: God is coming! 12:48:27 rob_ert: God is coming! 12:48:33 See? 12:48:34 wheee 12:48:51 I was getting him to do addition in pm :) 12:49:14 pm? 12:49:15 :D 12:49:19 Private Message 12:49:23 Ahh 13:03:16 --- quit: Speuler (SendQ exceeded) 13:03:47 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 13:04:15 Hoi =) 13:06:47 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~BigBoyTod@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 13:06:53 hello 13:07:14 Hey Big Brother =) 13:07:30 Well, the moment we have all been waiting for is coming closer and closer to reality. I hope this turns out to be a great discussion with CM and not some BS. 13:07:34 rob_ert: h ello. 13:07:47 * kc5tja is sure CM feels the same way. 13:07:52 Hah 13:07:54 :) 13:08:08 Serious - he constantly gets asked stupid, irrelavent questions all the time. 13:08:14 I want to know more about what is going on with the chips he designed, and also the second generation of chips he is working on now for a FORTH machine 13:08:46 kc5tja: well, that is likely, but newbies like me (I am not really a newbie to FORTH, just took a 15 year sabbatical to make some money) are common I'm sure. 13:09:21 I just finished another FORTH book, FORTH for Professionals, it is pretty technical and good. 13:09:41 There were some problems with it, errors in type and also a few logical errors, but generally it is a good book, recommend reading it. 13:09:55 :-) 13:10:00 BigBoyToddy: I'm not sure he won't answer newbie questions; but he'll likely ignore questions he feels is stupid. I read the logs of when he came online a few days ago, and he was very terse in his answers, and didn't even attempt to answer questions he didn't feel worth answering. :) 13:10:04 What are you people using forth for? 13:10:23 Maybe he didn't see them? =) 13:10:31 --- join: bernd (~bernd@b-180-190-246.f.dial.de.ignite.net) joined #forth 13:10:40 Hi 13:10:44 Well, I am TRYING to get this Forth running so I can complete my semiconductor verification tasks. :( 13:10:58 But the VM assembler is putting out bogus code, and I *CANNOT* reproduce the error condition. :( 13:11:06 :/ 13:11:52 hi bernd 13:11:58 Here is my FORTH book list now. 13:11:58 Threaded Interpretive Languages 13:11:58 Starting FORTH (3 copies, first and second editions) 13:11:58 Dicover FORTH (2 copies) 13:11:58 FORTH Programming 13:11:58 Functional FORTH for the BBC 13:12:00 Exploring FORTH 13:12:02 FORTH Tools and Applications 13:12:04 Learning FORTH 13:12:06 Invitation to FORTH 13:12:08 Using FORTH 13:12:10 Thinking FORTH 13:12:13 FORTH for Professionals 13:12:14 FORTH Dimensions (a few issues) 13:12:17 Its a start. 13:12:17 damn, I wish I could go to powells:-( 13:12:33 I think you are missing Eating FORTH and Breathing Forth 13:12:36 These are the books I have, and I have a few more on my 'wish list'. 13:12:40 davidw: yes, I agree! 13:12:42 LOL 13:12:57 --- quit: bernd (Client Quit) 13:12:57 Oh, and polyFORTH, I got that too, but on loan. 13:13:58 I honestly have to say IMHO the best book there is FORTH for Professionals, and then THINKING Forth and STARTING Forth. 13:14:15 Does anyone else out there collect and read the FORTH literature from the past? If so, what books do you have around in your library. 13:14:17 * kc5tja never heard of FORTH For Professionals 13:14:31 I've never seen a forth book. 13:14:43 My library has nothing about forth, but a book about Algol 60... 13:14:46 It is pretty rare I guess, I have not been able to find a reference to it for sale available, always sold or had it a long, long time ago. 13:14:46 :-/ 13:14:58 rob_ert: Cool, Algol! 13:15:06 Hehe 13:15:09 hehehe 13:15:13 Simula! 13:15:16 I read Starting Forth recently...but mostly when I'm doing stuff with Forth I just make it up as I go along... :) 13:15:18 * davidw would like a good forth book 13:15:28 I don't know, though, I'm still not convinced about forth 13:15:42 davidw: I would highly recommend FORTH for Professionals if you can find it, for those that already know programming and Assembly it is FANTASTIC! 13:15:44 I like the idea of assembling lots of words, but the stack thing makes me suspicious 13:15:58 Hehe 13:16:05 davidw: computers have stacks, so if you are suspicious, just look at how cool Postscript is/was and also PDF. 13:16:20 Hmm 13:16:31 I just read them, I don't look at the code;-) 13:16:39 It's like writing an asm program with only push/pop/call ;) 13:17:06 I'm a great fan of the expressions in forth 13:17:16 They are parsed in the same way I think! 13:17:22 (Backwards) 13:19:19 davidw: Suspicious of what? What crimes has Forth committed? 13:19:59 Language is just a tool, and in FORTH, it really is just a tool to create IMHO a language to express and solve a problem domain. I like that, it makes alot of sense, and I have always wanted a more natural progression to a solution set, albeit packages and libraries do the same in some ways, FORTH is so much less bloated than other systems/languages. 13:20:24 I embrace it, for what it does best, and I am no suspicious of it much at all, I'm intrigued by its simplicity. 13:21:01 I like the idea of variables...registers 13:21:07 * kc5tja will be using it to write his operating system, instead of C. The end result is the same from both languages: a static binary image. Makes sense to use the more expressive language for development. 13:22:15 Oh, as for THE best book on understanding the language of FORTH, I would have to say from a system developer standpoint that would be Threaded Interpreted Languages. Oh, and finally the FORTH Byte issue, August 1980 is FANTASTIC to see and experience the beginning of its popularity in the mainstream. 13:22:16 davidw: But why bother with them if you don't need them? 13:22:54 Because in some solutions the stack even when done right makes for consuming time to debug or understand. I am not a proponent of variables in the Nth degree, they have a place. 13:23:12 BigBoyToddy: I'm not arguing that at all. 13:23:19 That's just plain common sense. 13:23:24 If we have the FORTH way of doing things, no more than 3 items on the stack for a particular word, that is ideal, but not always do we do things ideally. 13:23:40 Oh, I see, sorry. 13:23:49 If you need them, then fine. :) 13:23:53 Yep, agreed. 13:23:55 If you don't, why bother? 13:24:22 In my VM assembler, I've got less than 10 variables, one of which is a 2KB big buffer. 13:24:37 Habit, some folks simply have habit, and it makes for a common thread for folks coming from C or a more object oriented world. 13:24:39 I also make heavy use of structures in my code too. 13:24:44 Like VB or such. 13:25:55 IMHO the best thing to do without compremise is to offer bridges to folks with other life/programming experiences. If they are there, and someone is comfortable with them, why NOT use them? The issue becomes maintainability for me, software isn't much more than art unless it is used. Interpretive code for the sake of art is worth something, but not cash usually. Someone down the road has to pay the bills :o) 13:27:11 But these things are known, no? To find 16 folks here talking and sharing realtime thoughts and ideas on forth, old or new, well founded or dillusional is quite nice. Especially for us loanly bear killers here in the mountains of CO :o) 13:27:25 lonely :o) 13:27:29 LOL 13:27:45 I disagree. 13:27:53 One should be open to the language, not the other way around. 13:27:54 How so? 13:28:12 You don't think the language should fit the needs of the users, but the other way around? 13:28:23 If you want to use a language that is as extensible as Forth, but uses variables instead of the stack, I recommend Smalltalk. 13:28:33 You're not listening to what I'm saying. 13:28:43 Okay, what are you saying? 13:28:58 Forth shouldn't have to support heavy variable use just to cater to those who are more familiar with C. 13:29:09 Okay, I disagree, I think it should. 13:29:16 No, it shouldn't. 13:29:18 Forth is Forth. 13:29:19 C is C. 13:29:25 Without penalty, why not? 13:29:31 If Forth becomes C, what's the advantage to programming in Forth, if you're really programming in C? 13:29:49 Because then it's no longer Forth. It's some bastardized language hybrid. 13:29:57 Hybrid :) 13:30:07 Part of working with computers is to always embrace new ideas, always to learn, always to improve your skills. 13:30:12 I often take a tool from the box and use it for jobs that don't make sense at first, yet over time the habit, or solution becomes natural. That doesn't make it wrong, and the language should support it to allow me the flexibility to make mistakes in design, implementation and rethink things. To limit, is just that. 13:30:20 If everything is handed to you on a silver platter all the time, what do you really learn? 13:30:49 kc5tja: yes, and making mistakes is the ONLY way you learn, if you pay attention to your mistakes. Otherwise a mistake is only one not learned from. 13:31:11 Thank you for proving my point. 13:31:29 Now, if you want to use local variables, Forth does provide some provisions for that via the LOCALS vocabulary. 13:31:35 kc5tja: nobody uses 100% of any language, even its inventor. I know, because I have worked on languages where the author/inventor and I disagreed on things, he used the tool in one way, I did another, and we learned from each other, but the tool could accomidate both of us. 13:31:36 (if your Forth happens to support such a thing) 13:31:44 I wish I had more room... then I would take up my C128 as a forth-only machine =) 13:32:06 Well, then use Forth locals. 13:32:09 rob_ert: not a bad idea! 13:32:11 :o) 13:32:11 But don't complain about lack of performance. 13:32:24 Because Forth is a *stack* architecture, not a locals-based architecture. 13:32:28 Hmm 13:32:38 How heavy can you factorize a program? 13:32:38 Not saying locals-based architecture is bad, I'm not. 13:32:43 I'm just saying, it's not designed for it. 13:32:55 My C-poisoned brain can't see how to factorize it very heavily 13:32:58 ;-) 13:33:07 Me? Extremely. People in CLF hate me because I'm such a heavy proponent of factorization. 13:33:14 rob_ert: as much as you want. 13:33:26 kc5tja: CLF? 13:33:28 That's the nice feature of concatenative languages. 13:33:32 CLF == comp.lang.forth 13:33:42 proponent = ? 13:33:47 rob_ert: it just takes a way of thinking, that is one reason I recommend the book by Leo Brodie called THINKING Forth, it is really a good text. 13:33:47 You can make two programs from one by splitting it in the middle. 13:34:12 proponent == someone who is pro the idea/practice. 13:34:16 From http://www.m-w.com: 13:34:17 Main Entry: pro·po·nent 13:34:17 Pronunciation: pr&-'pO-n&nt, 'prO-" 13:34:17 Function: noun 13:34:17 Etymology: Latin proponent-, proponens, present participle of proponere 13:34:17 Date: 1588 13:34:19 : one who argues in favor of something : ADVOCATE 13:34:30 Why do _they_ hate you for that? 13:34:41 Because I take it to extremes. 13:34:42 kc5tja: you are good with that URL stuff :o) 13:34:49 kc5tja: so you are extreme. 13:35:09 For example, to someone on the list, something like "BASE @ >R HEX U. >R BASE !" is well factored. And I say, fooey. 13:35:14 THIS is well factored: 13:35:21 LOL, it is just about my view of moderation, and you like purity, that is fine. This is why we have such a nice world to live in, and we are not all blue eyed and blond. 13:35:31 : hex. BASE @ >R HEX U. BASE ! ; 13:35:35 whatever hex. 13:35:59 Yes, I am extreme. 13:36:10 * kc5tja also practices extreme programming as a rule of thumb as well. 13:36:18 http://www.xprogramming.com 13:36:19 That is good to know. Well, have to go sell a couple of my AMD machines... Gotta eat tonight. 13:36:36 kc5tja: :-) 13:36:38 LOL, munch munch 13:36:45 Do you know any page about this? 13:36:52 Any page about what? 13:36:54 I mean, thinking in forth 13:36:57 None. 13:37:00 :-/ 13:37:10 The closest you'll find is www.taygeta.com/forth 13:37:16 Like I mentioned earlier, my library is a bit...poor. 13:37:37 Sorry 13:37:42 www.taygeta.com/forth.html 13:38:06 I recommend learning extreme programming though. 13:38:19 XP shares some 90% of its philosophy with that of Forth's. 13:38:25 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:38:29 Hey =) 13:38:35 holla 13:38:36 XP is also language independent, although they use Smalltalk and Java as examples (because that's what everyone knows) 13:38:45 hi hi hi kc :) 13:38:50 re futhin 13:38:52 I don't know smalltalk or java =) 13:38:58 rob_ert: You don't need to. 13:39:07 I get the impression most of the XP guys are into OO languages though 13:39:09 Just follow their examples, and it'll become clear. 13:39:11 kc: does the online interview event bring you to this humble channel? :) 13:39:28 tathi: They are, because OO languages are the only languages that allow for such brutal factorization with such clumsy syntaxes. 13:39:34 Forth is a natural application of XP. 13:39:41 ok 13:39:45 Forth programmers were doing XP before Kent Beck was even heard of. 13:39:58 yeah, most of it sounded pretty familiar to me :) 13:40:02 by doing factoring? 13:40:13 Not just factoring -- brutal factoring. 13:40:17 yeah :) 13:40:21 Factoring so much that the call overhead becomes significant. 13:40:23 XP has some differences though 13:40:36 XP talks about _how_ to deal with the customers 13:40:40 and to program in pairs 13:40:54 Sure; it's a superset of what Forth programmers doing. But who cares? It's the philosophy that counts. 13:40:55 Why factor so much that the calls are killing you? 13:41:04 rob_ert: Software maintenance. 13:41:10 yes, I get the impression forth programmers don't do Pair Programming much :) 13:41:13 Hmmm... that's a point ;) 13:41:20 Pair Programming? 13:41:28 Two people per computer, banging out code. 13:41:32 Code with your friends? 13:41:33 Hehe, OK 13:41:37 EXTREMELY productive. 13:41:39 I'd like to do that 13:41:39 * tathi is away: I'm busy 13:41:45 yeah.. i want to see a collaborative environment where coders can get together and code online with others 13:41:47 But I'm only 1 person 13:41:53 * tathi is back (gone 00:00:15) 13:42:08 tathi is amazingly quick ;) 13:42:09 futhin: Let's start a new hippie collective outside CM's house.... 13:42:10 Well, I'm only 1 person now, and look how frigging long it's taking me to get this damn VM assembler finished. :( 13:42:19 Hehe 13:42:33 My keyboard just was being screwy 13:42:36 or something 13:43:26 assembler for a forth VM? 13:43:50 tathi: Assembler for a VM, with which I'm writing a Forth in, yes. 13:44:00 Who is doing XP here, real job involved XP as well as peer programming? 13:44:33 not me, I just dabble 13:44:33 futhin: yes, that is ideal. A round table, a shared workspace, and a versioning system that is dynamic and live. 13:45:06 One problem with FORTH as I see it, and the IDE around them that I have seen, nothing comes close. But the tools for other languages do have such, FORTH needs such a tool/IDE, badly. 13:45:19 * kc5tja used to 13:45:28 kc5tja: like? 13:45:37 * kc5tja is doing one-sided XP now; not really XP, but it's everything I can, except for pair programming. 13:45:59 Like what? 13:46:18 I was at Cincom 1.5 years ago doing a sabbatical tour, and after spending time with the guy who INVENTED CRC and also involved heavily in Peer Programming, i came to the conclusion that most don't even though they say they do. 13:46:47 bigboytoddy: yes, i sort of want to create a "multi-user collaborative forth environment universe" where many forth coders can get on, and talk, and see each other coding, and go off to code themselves, and do pair programming, etc.. 13:47:35 BigBoyToddy: What are you talking about? Can you be more specific? Peer programming != pair programming. 13:47:40 --- quit: Speuler (No route to host) 13:47:41 and be able to execute their code transparently in the universe (the code would run on their own machines, but they would be able to run it and show results) 13:47:47 futhin: yep, that is what I invisioned 15 years ago when first exposed to NextStep as its potential, and when VisualWorks 1.0 came to NS I was excited, but then that smalltalk market just collapsed, and I lost interest, then Eiffel for NS came and I was excited again, and then it went away again :( It has come and gone, but mostly gone. 13:47:50 Pair programming is when you have two people sitting in front of the same computer. 13:48:07 kc5tja: yes, sorry pair, I get dislexic at times with typing :) 13:48:24 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 13:48:39 bigboytoddy: i haven't really seen any good collaborative software or groupware software.. so i think that something should be coded.. if it were coded in forth, then it could be easily adapted to handle forth coding collaboration 13:48:42 Hi Fare. 13:48:45 lo 13:49:56 futhin: I suspect when understanding the FORTH need, the need of the FORTH if you will, an IDE for FORTH would be quite different than just a common IDE. If done in FORTH, I think it could be adapted to other languages and most methodologies quite well. I'm not a FORTH pro, so I dont' know. 13:50:08 * kc5tja doesn't want groupware software. There's no need for it. Just get the other programmer, and have him sit down in your cube/office/whatever, and start hacking. 13:50:22 * tathi agrees with kc5tja 13:50:42 --- quit: wossname ("-_-") 13:50:45 * futhin disagrees.. what if the programmer is half the world away? 13:50:52 kc5tja: some things are indeed lost with distance, to overcome that disability is communications. To ignore the need and do it the old way, well that has some 'output' validity, but not necessarily advancing the trade practice any. 13:50:56 ideally the coders are right next to you 13:50:56 futhin: exactly. 13:50:57 Then use traditional open-source techniques. 13:51:08 naw, cvs is lame :/ 13:51:13 Use subversion. 13:51:15 Ideally, the customer and you/coder understand each other, but that and other things seldom happens. 13:51:31 how is cvs lame? 13:51:31 if the person is half the world away you run a CVS or SVN repository, and use some kind of chat program to talk if you need semi-realtime communication 13:51:33 BigBoyToddy: XP is about enforcing that to happen. 13:51:34 or e-mail otherwise 13:51:35 subversion is lame too :P 13:51:54 look, the ideal way to work with another coder, is in an interactive real-time environment 13:52:01 BigBoyToddy: It doesn't perform database locking, for one, which means the repo can and will get trashed if two people update the CVS repo at the same time. 13:52:11 * kc5tja has to deal with CVS screw-ups all the time here at work. 13:52:19 SVN isn't lame. 13:52:28 What the hheck is the matter with you? :) 13:52:40 SVN is similar to CVS so therefore it's lame :P 13:52:41 heh 13:52:45 kc5tja: XP is a lot of things, an pair programming a component. To pair is NOT necessarily to have to sit down and do it physically together. That is a limit in part of technology. Granted, gestures, body language, tired ideas rehashed and enthusiasm all come with physical proximity, I am getting at getting over that limitation of locale. 13:52:49 Your ignorance is showing through. 13:52:56 mine? 13:53:01 Yeah. :) 13:53:04 yeah :) 13:53:05 How is SVN lame? 13:53:13 Just 'cos it's "similar to CVS" isn't enough. 13:53:25 ouch, I see a pissing match. Later, I run and hide. 13:53:27 SVN is *lightyears* ahead of CVS technologically speaking, let alone architecturally speaking. 13:53:28 :o) LOL 13:53:40 For one, it uses a single database backend. 13:53:41 is it an interactive real-time environment in which to code with other programmers ? 13:53:43 Updates are atomic. 13:54:05 bigboytoddy: it is not a big pissing match, i am happily 99% ignorant of CVS and SVN :) 13:54:07 If that's your basis for lameness, then by that definition, all Forths are also lame. 13:54:22 I have to run my text editor outside of Forth to write Forth software. 13:54:24 Ergo, Forth is lame. 13:54:32 It's not "interactive." 13:54:37 you don't have to run a text editor outside 13:54:48 and yes, i am interested in creating an interactive/editor hybrid :) 13:54:51 Umm...to do anything more non-trivial than "Hello World", yes you do. 13:55:02 Well, until you do, everything is lame. 13:55:05 So deal with it. 13:55:06 :) 13:55:11 :) 13:55:19 forth _is_ a tad lame 13:55:27 it's the perfect language imho ;) 13:55:33 but it's a tad lame because it lacks support 13:55:41 and needs to be extended 13:55:49 to a more usable/productive level.. 13:55:57 of course, this depends on the coding task 13:57:12 kc5tja & bigboytoddy: what programming languages do you know? 13:57:17 Too many to list. 13:57:19 heh 13:57:24 you know lisp and smalltalk? 13:57:38 futhin: too many to list. 13:57:55 Enough to be dangerous. 13:58:03 I can pick up more advanced LISP pretty quickly though. 13:58:10 Smalltalk is actually relatively recent for me. 13:58:29 bigboytoddy: you know lisp and smalltalk? 13:58:31 I have programmed in everything from 6502/68000 (apple products) to high level OO languages Lisp/CLOS and Smalltalk and ObjC, Object Pascal and more. It is painful to know this, I have learned too much technology, and too little wisdom. 13:59:13 futhin: yes, smalltalk mostly in the past few years. I have taught it and done research, I own the domains SmalltalkHistory.com/net/org and fortunately have spent many hours wiht the first implementor of a smalltalk commercial product documenting the history of it. 13:59:56 :) 13:59:57 cool 14:00:12 the reason why i asked was because not many of the forth coders on this chan know a diverse amount of languages.. 14:00:32 and i'm wondering how much bias forth coders get from not knowing other languages 14:00:33 --- nick: Fare -> lady_sophia 14:00:38 --- nick: lady_sophia -> Fare 14:00:39 futhin: I suspect that is true, most here seem to be 1/2 to fully baked when it comes to knowledge of computers. 14:00:48 Heheh :) 14:00:56 Does building your own CPU in TTL discrete logic count? 14:00:58 I'm 2^-32 baked. 14:01:01 baked = lack of knowledge? 14:01:18 futhin: no, baked means well done, knowledgable, I was complimenting them. 14:01:41 bigboytoddy: you like forth even though you know OOP and HLL languages? 14:01:56 * futhin thinks that forth is hll anyways heh 14:02:14 futhin: yes I like forth very much, because at this point in my life I believe that FORTH is a reflection of my view on simple is better. 14:02:43 Yeah; nothing like being able to say ForEachLabel: OnlyUndefinedLabels: ." * Label " DUP Label.Name $@ TYPE ." is undefined!" ; 14:02:57 Smalltalk is WONDERFUL, and lovely, and GREAT!!! No question about it, yet to get GUI stuff done on it, in particular Morphic or VisualWorks 5i or otherwise, it takes a HUGE investment to understand the API to the GUI libraries. 14:03:15 BigBoyToddy: Yeah, that's my problem with ST as well. 14:03:18 i learned postscript recently 14:03:23 The language is relatively easy to grasp. The API isn't. :) 14:03:38 i really liked the language, even though it only handles 2dimensional stuff 14:03:41 futhin: I learned PS about 12 years ago formally, and wanked with it in 1984/85 when I touch on 14:03:46 FORTh for the first time. 14:03:52 heh :) 14:03:56 I choose PS 3 years later with NeXTStep. 14:04:05 i think that it would be really easy to convert PS to forth.. 14:04:07 * rob_ert touched forth a few months ago 14:04:08 futhin: it handles 2d stuff very nicely. 14:04:14 rob_ert: I touched myself this morning 14:04:23 LOL, TMI 14:04:28 OK. ;D 14:04:39 i think that all the basic PS commands can be really easy to implement in forth.. and could be a useful thing.. 14:04:46 bigboytoddy: nextstep was using PS for gui ? 14:04:59 * futhin heard about some gui using postscript.. 14:05:05 futhin: NS used Display Postscript for its rendering model. 14:05:13 --- part: Fare left #forth 14:05:15 how did it work? 14:05:20 Adobe discontinued DPS so they could charge for PDF, they killed DPS. 14:05:50 i'm interested in making a .fgs extension (forth graphic script) to replace .ps :P 14:05:58 futhin: quite nicely, it worked great. You could call via C functions, you could write your own and then have a tool wrap it into a function set, or you could make calls via the GUI API, it was, still is fanstastic stuff. 14:06:19 I think that tool actually was called 'wrap' :o) 14:06:20 the gui was made using postscript ? 14:06:20 Go figure. 14:06:24 futhin: yes. 14:06:38 DPS did all the window managing, it was co-developed between NeXT and Adobe. 14:06:44 what did the code look like, if you wanted to draw a window ? 14:06:59 20 20 50 50 window 14:07:01 :) 14:07:14 I don't recall the exact code, man it has been years, but that would be at the PS level. 14:07:30 oops, it would have to un/buffered also 14:07:34 20 20 50 50 buffered window 14:07:38 there, that is better. 14:07:51 Man, nice question, it has been years since I hacked in D/PS. 14:07:52 ew, passing more than 2 parameters is a no-no in chuck's book :P 14:08:06 futhin: yes. 14:08:20 How would you factor something like that? 14:08:26 10 10 50 50 rectangle 14:08:27 futhin: /upleft { 20 20 } def 14:08:35 i did some postscript programming recently.. 14:08:41 created a thing to draw an arrow with a tail 14:08:52 upleft width height buffered window 14:08:53 passed like: 8 16 200 300 arrow 14:08:56 changed it to 14:08:57 Not nice, but works. 14:09:02 200 300 moveto 14:09:05 8 16 arrow 14:09:08 makes is simpler 14:09:14 s/is/it 14:09:24 cool, it works. 14:10:06 or you could just do 14:10:19 .. /upleft { } def 14:10:27 20 20 upleft 50 50 rectangle :P 14:10:37 dunno, i dont really do that 14:10:53 kind of a waste of precious vocabulary to have empty words :P 14:11:27 BigBoyToddy: so do you have any current forth programming projects? 14:11:29 sure, whatever makes the most sense and gets it done. 14:12:43 Is there any tiny, portable i386 forth in asm? 14:12:46 quite a few. I have some ports for BeOS that I have done, not much to them. 13 or so, mostly just make file mangles and compiles. Get libraries needed and compile. I have settled on PFE for now, it has some cool stuff like the 6809 emulator that I play with more to learn the 6809 way of the world. I also have been scanning into PDF documents long lost to the FORTH community, hoping that some day I will put together a FORTHis 14:14:39 a forthis? 14:16:57 anyone with an extensive forth book collection ( I collect and would love to share lists with you ). Thanks! 14:17:22 pfe looks pretty good 14:17:31 I want to write the controller that forces self destruction mode on the new line of space shuttles. 14:17:32 * davidw doesn't really know much forth 14:17:34 LOL :o) 14:17:54 PFE is nice, compiles out of box almost on any system, and IMHO is the best out there for the purpose. 14:18:31 pforth is fun, because you can make it run anywwhere 14:18:35 There is also a GREAT 6809 emulator that comes with it, and shows how to write parsers with existing FORTH parser, so the assembler for the 6809 is a hybrid of postfix and standard assembly infix notation, really hacky and unique. 14:18:54 what is a 6809? 14:18:55 davidw: yes I have it working on BeOS also, just didn't have the cool 6809 machine emu that caught my eye. 14:19:00 It's an 8-bit Motorola CPU. 14:19:05 dual accum system. 14:19:09 Nice stuff, still nice. 14:19:19 68000 wipes the floor with it. ;D 14:19:20 PFE != pforth right? 14:19:29 futhin: no 14:19:37 pfe is more like a big, full featured system 14:19:39 portable forth enviroment. 14:20:09 It is full featured for sure, I was really pleased. it is still maintained, albeit by a second person, the first is 'done' with it. 14:20:33 Actually I think the original author is done with FORTH in general. 14:21:04 gforth has got a few neat things too 14:21:08 the asm/disasm is neat 14:21:22 This is the file README and belongs to version 0.9.10 of November, 24 1994 14:21:22 of the portable Forth-environment. 14:21:22 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14:21:22 What is it? 14:21:22 =========== 14:21:23 This package contains all neccessary ANSI-C source files to build a 14:21:24 running Forth-environment on most UNIX machines, on DOS and on OS/2. 14:21:26 The Forth-system is closely modeled along the new American National 14:21:28 Standard for the programming language Forth. With the exception of the 14:21:30 assembler words I implemented every word of every word set mentioned 14:21:32 in the dpANS-6 document of june 1993. Additionally it is compatible 14:21:34 to Forth-83. 14:21:43 BigBoyToddy: how much can yuo cut it down? 14:21:44 --- join: Niemand (hzw21@D5E07208.kabel.telenet.be) joined #forth 14:21:49 Hoi 14:21:57 pforth even provides its own malloc, should you need it 14:22:21 davidw: that is a good question, I don't know how minimal you can get it, but I suspect pretty clean and small. But I believe the author recommends that other forths be used for ROM implementations. 14:22:52 --- quit: tathi (""Later all..."") 14:23:35 --- quit: Niemand (Client Quit) 14:23:39 I highly recommend you download the PFE distribution, make/install, then read the instructions and spend time with it. 14:23:41 * kc5tja sighs 14:23:48 ? :) 14:23:54 kc5tja: sigh, why? 14:23:58 * kc5tja can't reproduce this bug that he's having in his current project. 14:24:05 kc5tja: that sucks. 14:24:09 I can only get the bug to occur in production code. 14:24:14 that really sucks. 14:24:18 And there's no way to debug it either. 14:24:36 Are you using a CVS or like, is it introducing some code because of a CM state requirement? 14:24:50 kc5tja: why not able to debug, can't you do a serial port to the device or such? 14:24:57 No. 14:25:00 kc5tja: assuming you are doing production code to a device. 14:25:01 It's a desktop app. 14:25:04 oh. 14:25:13 It's the VM assembler that I'm writing. 14:25:19 I need to get a windows forth and play with it, although I swore I would not do windows ever. 14:25:35 And for some reason, it **REFUSES** to inject one of the three opcodes (the middle one) into the emitted code stream, and there is **NO** reason why it shouldn't. 14:25:42 If I run the code manually at the prompt, it works *FINE*. 14:25:51 bizarrooo. 14:26:08 heheheh 14:26:18 Man, GForth stinks for this sort of stuff... I wonder how much of this is purely GForth implementation bugs. 14:34:17 This just isn't making *any* amount of sense. :( 14:34:25 It appears to only have problems at specific spots in the buffer. 14:43:39 Shit! It's the forward reference resolution code that's trashing memory! That should definately *NOT* be happening! 14:43:40 why are you using gforth? 14:43:40 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:43:54 Because it's free and easy to get. 14:50:57 AHA! I think I might have isolated the bug. More tests are needed though.... 14:50:58 brb 14:52:26 hrm... it would be cool if I could handle interrupts with my forth thing 14:52:28 mmmmm 14:52:35 * davidw thinks 14:57:13 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIV-12.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 14:59:46 cooooool 14:59:51 I can start/stop the floopy 14:59:53 floppy 15:00:20 davidw: now you can write tracks by power of user suggestion. 15:00:27 reading them back could be a bit tricker =D 15:03:56 hey XeF4 :) 15:04:33 how do you read? 15:05:41 ah, fuck this... it's too messy 15:13:37 The floppy controller is one of the messiest hardware devices the PC has installed. 15:13:37 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:14:12 You need to use the PC's DMA controller to read and write in the most reliable manner, and that in itself is a trip. 15:17:50 ugh 15:18:12 I made the motor turn on at least 16:13:21 Doggone it...one bug after another. Only this one doesn't look like it's in the VM implementation, but rather, the code the VM is running. 16:13:28 Anyway, i'm getting food. 16:13:29 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 16:21:52 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-113.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 16:32:08 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.") 17:13:20 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 17:14:35 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 17:14:54 --- quit: forther (Remote closed the connection) 17:22:01 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 17:35:46 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust22.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 17:35:56 re 17:36:30 kc! 17:36:32 trying to fix my forth irc bot - i fixed my forth sockets code:) 17:36:37 I440r: Why? 17:36:38 cool 17:36:45 ^-- Futhin wanted me to ask you that for some reason. 17:36:48 :) 17:36:59 lol 17:37:04 lol 17:37:04 * kc5tja gets the distinct feeling that he's being puppeteered. 17:37:13 not my me :) 17:37:30 but futhin has delusions of being important n shit :) 17:37:37 Heheh :) 17:37:42 naw :P 17:38:20 well people have been showing up apparently 17:38:24 this is my channel ya know - and HE STOLE IT!!!! (lol) 17:38:30 cool 17:38:39 i WANT lotsa ppl wasting their time in here :) 17:38:45 the enth guy (sean pringle) and apparently bernd paysan 17:38:59 we must brainwash them to stay on irc!!! :P 17:39:07 chuck moore too 17:39:10 i 'managed' this channel for well over a year and was the ONLY ONE in here. 17:39:22 hehe :) 17:39:28 then when futhin takes over the place gets crowded 17:39:33 its a damned comspiracy 17:39:36 heh 17:39:45 yeah, that's cause i put in cool topics :P 17:39:47 isnt enth usually on irc ? 17:39:55 not something lame about isforth :P~~~~ 17:39:58 heh 17:40:05 that sorta talk will get you SHOT :P 17:40:12 I440r: BTW, what's the "is" in isForth stand for? 17:40:14 remember - im the guy with the BIG guns :) 17:40:25 theres a story behind that actually heh 17:40:29 yeah, gun freak forth coder, dangerous! :P 17:40:40 there was a guy that used to be on open called is 17:40:49 Hey, I'm an aikido freak Forth coder...isn't that just as dangerous? :) 17:40:51 and we were ALWAYS at odds with each other 17:41:05 i named it after him as a way of doing pennance - stop hating him sorta thing 17:41:17 Ahh 17:41:25 to remind me that even if i dont like the guy is was one of the cluefull ppl on here 17:41:28 My Forth's name is FS/Forth 17:41:34 besides i like my moto 17:41:44 IsForth - because forth IS 17:41:53 if someone asks 'forth is... what ?' 17:42:02 i just answer - what ever you want it to be 17:42:10 YOU fill in the blank of what it is 17:42:24 what does the IS word in the forth vocab do? 17:42:36 it is an alias for !> 17:42:44 The FS/ part of FS/Forth is a hold-over from when I ran my own software consulting business back when I was a teenager. FS/Forth only exists, in very limited form, for MS-DOS. It's somewhere on AOL's archives -- I don't even have the source code to it anymore. :) 17:42:48 meaning it has exactly the same function 17:42:53 its for context reasons 17:43:04 !> modifies the body field of a var or constant 17:43:07 10 !> foo 17:43:13 reads - 10 store-to foo 17:43:25 IS is used to modify the body of a defered word 17:43:29 to revector it 17:43:41 ' someword is some-defered-word 17:43:58 ticks someword and revectors some-defered-word to execute that 17:44:09 functionally they do exactly the same thing 17:44:16 : !> ' >body ! ; 17:44:17 * kc5tja prefers IS over !> :) 17:44:31 i use both - its a way to change context 17:44:51 its SORT of like the evil overloading in c 17:45:01 i thought that "because forth IS" refered to the actual IS word heh 17:45:05 but its only evil in c because they OVERDO it 17:45:23 used in moderation theres nothing wrong with this form of overloading 17:45:36 Actually, it's the opposite of C; in C, one word does numerous things. In your case, two (or more?) words do the same, one thing. 17:45:50 yes 17:45:59 Is that, then, "underloading?" ;D 17:45:59 one function with multiple names 17:46:09 not one name with multiple functions heh 17:46:12 lol 17:47:09 but i debated with myself for a long time weather to support alias or not 17:47:26 * kc5tja nods 17:47:32 in the end i decided i would but with a message discouraging its use too much 17:47:49 My alias: : FOO BAR ; ;D 17:47:57 its the forth way. give the guy enough rope to hang himself but show him how he SHOULD tie knots 17:48:20 ?? Forth never taught me how to tie knots. I was left to my death every time. :D 17:48:21 isforth has only ONE place where it actually ENFORCES good coding 17:48:31 brb -- bathroom 17:48:45 and it just happned that way 17:48:56 i440r: you should make a clipper guy for isforth 17:48:58 kc5tja: keep us appraised of any important developments 17:49:10 pops up everytime the forth coder is going to shoot himself in the foot 17:49:14 we love clipper!! 17:49:17 lol 17:49:34 userfriendly had a joke abouyt adding one of those to VI 17:49:35 heh 17:51:49 there was this really funny comment made on advogato i think, he just talks about enduring the pain of clipper, enduring the pain until it is overwhelming, and holding that pain for even longer - and he will become truely powerful 17:52:11 hm 17:52:18 maybe i should've just found the link and given it 17:52:21 yeah i'll do that 17:52:39 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 17:52:57 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Client Quit) 17:54:51 back 17:55:14 davidw: I'll be sure to remind you, and anyone else, of the same thing, the next time they write, "<-- sleeping" or some similar indication. 17:55:27 In other words, "Deal with it." 17:56:04 what the heck, google no longer has all the badvogato pages in its db so i can't search it.. 17:56:08 BB !! 17:56:20 lol a fly by heh 17:57:24 maybe he wants to do some work, but is also torn apart by a desire to visit this channel :P 17:58:12 Well, I need to do work too. But as long as content on the channel is productive, I don't mind participating. 17:58:26 yeah 17:58:32 heh i shud be fixing my bot but my brain is on hold 17:58:40 insufficient coffee and been on the go all day ehhe 17:58:41 or maybe it should be: *cough* yeah *cough* ;) 17:58:50 test firing that 308 is hard work ya know 18:02:58 bye 18:03:21 Later. 18:16:15 I'm a professional software developer, with exceptionally tight deadlines, and several past-due projects. ANYTHING that helps me go faster, that is to say, anything that helps me achieve direct mind-to-computer link, is a HUGE boost in productivity. 18:16:22 That's one of the reasons for writing the Forth environment. 18:16:42 Though at this point in the game, I'm seriously debating on whether or not I should use this VM and go with another one. This one is giving me problems. 18:16:59 doggone it!!!! 18:19:07 when i cant solve a problem i stop trying to 18:19:21 then when i go back to it the code just flows 18:19:33 ?? 18:21:50 sometimes when you cant do something its because you are trying too hard 18:21:52 or 18:21:59 when you cant find a solution to a problem 18:22:08 the best thing you can do is stop trying to solve it 18:22:14 let your subconcious solve it for you 18:22:37 yeah, but if you are creative enough, you can just try thinking of weird solutions 18:22:43 and eventually the right solution appears :P 18:22:53 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 18:22:58 hi bigboytoddy 18:23:01 hi there 18:23:01 BB :) 18:23:05 ok 18:23:17 I'm not sure where you're coming from... 18:23:21 What are you referring to? 18:23:29 me or i440r? 18:23:34 kc5 your problems with your VM 18:23:37 i440r 18:23:44 the harder you try to solve them - the harder they are to solve :) 18:24:00 Sometimes it's just better to scrap the whole thing, and start over from scratch. 18:24:08 yes true 18:24:09 yes 18:24:23 but i have a hard time scrapping my beautiful code :P 18:24:27 if you did it wrong you did it wrong 18:24:27 s/code/work 18:24:48 futhin if i think of a better way to do isforth the next thing ill do is rm -rf isforth 18:25:06 im never so in love with my code that i cant DO OVER if i did it wrong 18:27:00 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 18:28:53 i440r: if i feel i screwed up the code pretty bad, i'll generally create a duplicate (i won't scrap the code) and then i'll massively rip out all the crap, recode everything nicely, and then perhaps, cut'n'paste some of the good code from the original 18:29:05 and go from there 18:30:14 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:30:21 cut and paste coding is liable to cross contaminate :) 18:38:11 watch for my bot :) 18:38:40 --- join: Forth (~Forth@1Cust22.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 18:38:43 :) 18:39:01 that bot is isforth with sockets :) 18:39:02 forth: 1 2 + . 18:39:08 it cant do that yet 18:39:12 heh 18:39:35 but i can add it soon ennuff 18:39:43 im just glad i got it fixed heh 18:39:53 i wanted him in here when chuck came by :) 18:40:05 i don't understand why you had trouble with the forthbot & OPN's ircd ? 18:40:12 if i can telnet into here 18:40:19 it was a bug 18:40:22 i fixed it 18:40:30 a socket bug? 18:40:34 im running a local copy of this same ircd 18:40:36 on my laptop 18:40:43 so i can debug and develop the bot 18:40:53 lol - my laptop is an irc server heheh 18:42:28 Why not? A couple of people wrote a PPP stack for their Commodore 64, and implemented a webserver for it in the past... :) 18:43:25 pff, nothing to brag about.. what about those little consoles with 2k where you use the t.v as a monitor ? 18:43:38 like tandy or some x-word name.. or whatever 18:43:50 i want to collect those :) 18:43:51 they are leet 18:44:06 kc5 the old forth BBS ring was coded in dos batch 18:44:13 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:44:20 the entire BBS mailing system too 18:44:38 when you dialed in a BATCH script called a program to answer 18:44:38 * kc5tja nods -- not unheard of. 18:44:54 However, I'm a big fan of Citadel BBSes. They're small and minimalistic -- just like Forth. :D 18:44:57 everything you did while online on one of those BBS's interacted with BATCH scripts 18:45:15 my father offered to write their bbs system in FORTH for them 18:45:21 but they were too in love with their batch 18:49:03 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-113.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 18:49:13 hi soap 18:50:13 Yeah, I think I'm just going to ditch the VM, and just go with a token threaded system instead. 18:50:35 I've spent 2 weeks on this VM and its assembler, and while I made major headway with it, I can't continue doing this. 18:50:49 why not 18:50:59 Because I have a schedule I need to adhere to. 18:51:11 'ello 18:51:13 kc you will do better the second time - thats always the case 18:51:54 We'll see. 18:52:34 Because, quite frankly, this is literally the fourth attempt I've made at the VM. 18:53:24 :( 18:53:29 what is the main problem you are encountering? 18:53:31 with the vm? 18:53:42 It doesn't properly handle 0BRANCH correctly. 18:53:59 But I mean, it's been bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug after bug .... 18:54:04 define correctly 18:54:08 *NONE* of these bugs showed up during initial testing. 18:54:17 It takes a wild branch. 18:54:26 I have no frigging clue where it's getting its address from. 18:54:30 why don't you switch to isforth or some other forth ? 18:54:44 Look, I can't explain all my rationale. 18:54:53 with isforth, you'd have a better chance (i'd guess) of knowing what's happening 18:55:00 isforth will not run on MIPS. 18:55:08 GForth is GPL, and therefore, I can't use it in house. 18:55:12 Ditto for PFE. 18:55:22 isforth needs a debugger too be useful for REAL app devel 18:55:26 VFX and SwiftForth are commercial products -- something this company will never pay for. 18:55:53 I cannot possibly hope to give all my reasons away for doing what I do. 18:55:58 that's fine 18:56:05 isfort is gpl but specifically exempts commercial apps from having to be 18:56:22 needs to be ported to mips first :P 18:57:18 kc5tja: you could code a forth kernel in some language and get that working in linux & mips & windows.. 18:57:22 or whatever platforms you need 18:57:32 and then code the vm ontop of the forth kernel or something.. 18:57:34 more work 18:57:36 but... 18:57:39 * kc5tja is going to have to use C for this, I'm afraid. That's the only portable assembler I have available. 18:58:01 No. 18:58:11 Why implement a VM to run Forth on, when it's already running inside of Forth? 18:58:15 That's nonsensical. 18:58:25 I just have to write two separate Forth kernels. :( 18:59:04 eh?? 18:59:07 * kc5tja sighs 18:59:14 Why can't you follow what I'm saying? :) 18:59:17 heh 18:59:18 just a sec 18:59:20 I have to run my code on x86 and MIPS. 18:59:37 yes 18:59:38 I no longer have the time to implement the bottom-most VM. 19:00:11 platforms < C < forth kernel < VM < another forth kernel? heh 19:00:13 I must implement a native architecture, (in)direct threaded implementation for x86, and a separate implementation for MIPs. 19:00:49 Even if they're implemented with the same set of sources, the Forth kernel isn't write-once-run-anywhere. 19:00:54 It's more work for me. 19:01:00 --- quit: BigBoyToddy () 19:01:03 But it'll at least get me back on schedule. 19:01:13 what is a VM and what is the difference between a VM and a forth kernel? :) 19:01:25 Java is a virtual machine. 19:01:31 It is a virtual CPU. 19:01:38 Forth is a language that runs on top of a virtual machine. 19:01:46 forth is like java too 19:01:52 No, it's not. 19:02:00 You cannot take a Forth binary image and run it on another platform. 19:02:15 i'm talking about the language 19:02:19 not the implmentations.. 19:02:34 * kc5tja is talking about the implementation. 19:02:37 Always has been. 19:03:38 ok 19:03:40 well basically 19:03:43 what i was saying, i guess 19:03:54 is "implement the VM in C" .. 19:04:06 forth kernel = very very very basic VM 19:04:08 in my book.. 19:04:08 It IS implemented in C. 19:04:14 oh.. 19:04:21 Forth kernel != VM 19:04:22 where's gforth coming into play? 19:04:34 GForth is what I've written the VM's assembler in. 19:06:11 define vm please.. forth as a language, can be seen as an architecture language itself, from which you code stuff on top. people could code simple forth kernels in whatever languages they want, and then code an entire os for that forth kernel. and the os would be portable across whatever platforms that the forth kernel can be made for 19:06:18 Virtual Machine. 19:06:23 It's pretty self explanatory. 19:06:56 * kc5tja sighs 19:06:58 in my thinking, forth is a vm 19:07:02 So is C. 19:07:05 So is Pascal. 19:07:07 So is BASIC. 19:07:14 You're missing the point. 19:07:24 i don't know your point 19:07:26 yet 19:07:36 I don't want to have to maintain two separate Forth environments, one for x86, one for MIPS, because that introduces the possibility of portability bugs. 19:07:42 I already TOLD my point. 19:07:44 Several times! :( 19:07:54 I want to write the Forth kernel *ONCE*. 19:07:56 ONCE! 19:08:02 And have it run both on x86 and MIPS. 19:08:02 yes 19:08:15 yes 19:08:35 and all i'm saying, code the forth kernel in a language that runs on both x86 and MIPS.. 19:08:41 I can't do that without defining a hypothetical processor on which to execute the Forth kernel with. 19:08:49 onetom has coded a forth kernel in forth, python, and awk 19:09:01 three forth kernels 19:09:03 * kc5tja cries. 19:09:06 Never mind. 19:09:07 Just drop it. 19:09:10 wont you have to write the VM twice tho ? 19:09:12 sorry.. 19:09:15 No. 19:09:18 Yes. 19:09:25 The VM consists of whopping 32 instructions. 19:09:28 That's trivial to debug. 19:09:35 (The VM was debugged in only two days) 19:09:43 That's the point. 19:09:45 It's uber-simple. 19:09:51 the forth 19:09:54 Remember I'm a verification technician. 19:10:05 IN the vm doesnt tho rite ? 19:10:08 Part of my job is to be able to say, with the utmost in certainty, "YES, my code is provably correct." 19:10:23 ?? In English, please? 19:10:24 :) 19:10:34 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 19:10:58 if youhave a correctly working VM then its the FORTh you are wirting IN the vm thats b0rked 19:11:20 Actually, it's the assembler. 19:11:25 The assembler is what's borked. 19:11:44 you said gforth is the assembler 19:11:48 how so? 19:11:52 NNOO!!! 19:11:59 .. 19:12:05 I said GForth is what I WROTE the assembler with. 19:12:22 I cannot possibly be this hard to understand. 19:12:28 i'm sorry 19:12:34 but i don't understand "I said GForth is what I WROTE the assembler with." 19:12:47 HUH?! 19:12:52 i don't understand "gforth is what you wrote the assembler with" 19:12:57 What language are you writing your messages to me in? 19:13:00 heh 19:13:05 just rephrase 19:13:09 No. 19:13:13 There is no rephrasing. 19:13:23 GForth is the language in which my assembler is written. 19:13:24 Period. 19:13:28 That is a complete sentence. 19:13:43 Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! 19:13:44 ok, that translates to "gforth is the assembler" 19:13:48 No. 19:14:00 That's not at all what it translates to. 19:14:07 futhin ill explain 19:14:21 kc5 has a virtual machine. he also has a virtual assemlber 19:14:26 Because you write to me in IRC in English, are you English? 19:14:38 BHOTH run on the same machine (im guessing) but the assembler does NOT run in the virtual machine 19:14:47 he writes a virtual assembler source file 19:14:58 then he runs the assembler which he wrote using gforth 19:15:08 that assembles the source file and writes a virtual executable 19:15:24 THEN he runs the virtual macine and tells IT to run that virtual executable 19:15:32 BUT - the assembler is producing WRONG code 19:15:39 yes i am english, i have a fine grasp of english, i read millions of books, i got 90% in english 12 honours if that means anything to you. sadly got 3 out of 5 on the AP writing because i froze on the essay writing portions 19:15:52 futhin: Yesterday, you said you were Canadian. 19:15:55 i have a bit of a tendency to have writer's block.. due to my "perfectionist" nature 19:15:59 canadian 19:16:01 yes 19:16:03 How can you be English if you are Canadian? 19:16:06 lol 19:16:21 i didn't type English 19:16:24 i typed english 19:16:26 yea - you guys are all french :P 19:16:37 * kc5tja is Italian, actually. And German. 19:16:38 i wasn't refering to the English 19:16:48 i was just saying that "yes, my language is english" 19:16:50 i mean canadians hehe 19:16:54 OK, I'll go along with that logic, and continue to prove you wrong. 19:17:01 How can you be english and still be Canadian? 19:17:08 i was just saying that "yes, my language is english" 19:17:09 i was just saying that "yes, my language is english" 19:17:09 i was just saying that "yes, my language is english" 19:17:18 Your LANGUAGE IS ENGLISH. 19:17:23 YOU are not english. 19:17:26 fuck 19:17:26 ugh 19:17:28 lets not quibble 19:17:31 chill!! 19:17:32 about semantics 19:17:37 semantic argumentation is gay 19:17:37 ok 19:17:59 i can't always be accurate with my words 19:18:00 Wait a minute... 19:18:08 but i think you understand what i meant 19:18:14 I don't expect you to be always accurate with your words. 19:18:19 you are just pissed off because i don't understand you 19:18:23 if you don't understand me 19:18:26 i'll rephrase 19:18:27 until you do 19:18:36 But what happens when I can't rephrase? 19:18:49 What happens when the concept being discussed is so *atomic*, that you cannot break it down further? 19:18:58 A IS B. 19:18:59 Period. 19:19:06 You can't GET more atomic than that. 19:19:09 That is a basic proposition. 19:19:17 it isn't true that "gforth is the assembly" is as atomic as it can be 19:19:27 Yes. 19:19:29 But did I write that? 19:19:30 No. 19:19:42 I wrote, GForth is the language in which the assembler is written. 19:19:44 oh no, i didn't type out what you said 19:19:48 i was refering to that 19:19:52 ok 19:19:55 break down assembler 19:20:04 and use it in that sentence 19:20:21 gforth is the language in which the is written. 19:20:25 GForth is the language in which the language which represents the virtual architecture by which instructions are encoded is written in. 19:20:45 NASM is an assembler. 19:20:47 It's written in C. 19:20:53 Does that mean that C is the assembler? 19:20:57 No. 19:22:06 "GForth is the language in which the language which represents the virtual architecture by which instructions are encoded is written in." 19:22:10 The assembler's job is to take a symbolic representation of a program, where each construct has a 1:1 mapping with its hardware-level (or, in this case, the virtual machine mapping) corresponds. 19:22:11 how is that readable heh 19:22:20 Futhin, this is my point. 19:22:22 It's NOT readable. 19:22:24 without forcing the reader to go thru loops 19:22:28 When I said it was as atomic as it gets, I meant it. 19:26:03 * kc5tja sighs -- I'll learn Lojban, so then any form of ambiguity won't happen. 19:26:48 ok 19:26:53 i have taken a breather 19:26:58 looked up the definition of assembler too 19:27:00 just to be sure 19:27:10 kc5 if the assembler is broken then it is probably broken on 1 maybe 2 specific instructions 19:27:15 or the encodings thereof 19:27:30 examine its output and disassemble it BY HAND 19:27:57 I440r: That doesn't matter at this point. The point for me now, is that I'm out of time. I've used up my alloted time to implement the low-level VM. I should have had it sitting at an OK prompt by now. 19:28:12 I440r: When I disassemble by hand, everything is correct. 19:28:27 hey I440r. figure out your troubles with isforth? 19:28:42 yes and no 19:28:53 i fixed one problem but there was another one that was beyond me 19:28:59 im no expert at fbsd :) 19:29:14 nod 19:29:31 i think i might be passing parameters out of order on some syscall or other 19:29:33 everybody understands that the forth kernel is a small part of the rest of the forth right? 19:29:40 * joa might look at it 19:29:57 cool - btw you can delete that account now 19:30:02 alright 19:30:02 gforth != forth kernel 19:30:04 realy appreciate the help tho :) 19:30:32 nod, it's cool :) I always like giving accounts on other people's boxen 19:30:43 makes friends for me at no cost :) 19:30:56 heheh 19:30:57 lol 19:31:15 but it COULD end up making you at least ONE enemy if the "friend" does something nawtee :) 19:31:20 where can I get the half fixed source? 19:31:27 nod ;) could 19:31:29 oh erm hang on 19:31:32 alright 19:31:54 oh btw joa - forth is my isforth with a linux sockets and an irc bot extension i wrote :) 19:32:08 it cant do anything here yet but i got it to connect heh 19:32:16 Forth: .( hello joa) ... or not 19:32:27 that's cool :) 19:32:36 I want to write an IRC server and I still haven't figured out which language :) 19:32:45 though I do have a very fast IRC parser 19:32:57 written in forth ? 19:33:00 nah heh 19:33:06 yea - i PLAN to write an irc server in forth 19:33:14 but i want to dispense with the spanning tree networks 19:33:33 i might even make the inter-server connections dynamic 19:34:22 joa dns me and ftp into pub 19:34:31 the semi fixed freebsd.1 source file is in there 19:34:34 well, I dunno if it's true but it doesn't seem like you can connect two different servers together in IRC 19:34:47 two different "brands" of server as it were 19:35:00 on irc as it now stands from any client to any other client has ONE path 19:35:05 thats a spanning tree network 19:35:15 nod 19:35:34 if servers had sircular connections and you use intelligent routing for messages you would not have netsplits 19:36:02 nod 19:36:16 it'd be nice :) 19:36:18 but its the ROUTING problem that stops people from trying to implement it 19:36:30 doing it in forth would simplify debugging the code :) 19:36:48 ya got that source ? 19:36:53 no 19:36:56 extremely lagged 19:37:03 aha 19:37:12 I'll get it when I can :) 19:37:17 im on a crappy connection :P 19:37:22 that might be it heh 19:37:26 probably not 19:37:35 I think it's the fact that I'm downloading a website 19:37:41 and I'm on a 33.6 ;) 19:38:32 one nice thing about forth is that you can easily paste code to IRC 19:38:50 i cant cut and paste :( 19:38:51 same nice thing with lisp though it looks much worse with lisp heh 19:38:59 the damned touchpad wont cut or paste in x 19:38:59 do you use screen? 19:39:03 no matter how i try 19:39:04 im in x 19:39:18 what's it do wrong? 19:39:28 basically it doesnt do ANYTHING 19:39:34 are you able to select text? 19:39:46 yes. 19:39:58 but x insists i have a 3 button mouse when i dont 19:40:07 and ive TOLD it i want 'emulate 3' 19:40:17 nod 19:40:32 the only way i could even get the mouse movement to work in x was to set it to using gpmdata 19:40:39 and to set gpm to 'fups2' 19:40:53 fups2 is a driver for buggy ps2's 19:40:57 fucked up ps2 19:41:05 interesting... I've had some trouble with my logitech mouse getting it to work with its fourth button 19:41:08 its actually a synaptics touchpad 19:41:25 i have the tpconfig drivers installed too 19:41:44 well, first thing to check is what happens when you click both buttons at once 19:41:45 and when i id the touchpad its device ID is 19 of a 18 known id's 19:41:48 use xev to see what it says 19:42:20 it should just say button 1 down and button 3 down and up again when you let them up 19:42:43 unless you have it setup to emulate the buttons... it's possible that your touchpad already tries to emulate that or doesn't let you have both down at once 19:43:24 nop i get a whole fucking screen full of debug info when i run xev 19:43:25 * joa made his mouse have chordmiddle at one point... added a button that'd short both buttons to ground at the same time 19:43:28 ya 19:43:36 i get keymapnotify events on both buttons 19:43:37 erm 19:43:39 on each button 19:43:43 looks like the same event 19:43:53 you don't get ButtonPress events? 19:43:58 nope 19:44:08 hm... that's extremely odd heh 19:44:22 ButtonPress event, serial 29, synthetic NO, window 0x2400001, 19:44:22 root 0x4e, subw 0x0, time 2572977302, (119,98), root:(194,201), 19:44:22 state 0x0, button 1, same_screen YES 19:44:30 that's what I get for pressing button 1 19:45:17 oh i do get a button press event 19:45:25 then i get a keymap notify event 19:45:37 then it lists a table of keys 19:45:37 that's rather odd 19:45:44 basically i get flooded when i press a key heh 19:45:51 heh nod 19:46:09 erm 19:46:11 is it a KeyPress event? 19:46:20 for left button i get a button 1 event 19:46:27 for the right i get a button 3 event 19:46:30 for both i get a button 2 event 19:46:35 thats gotta be wrong 19:46:44 well, that's what all X clients see 19:47:10 errr- i just did a cut and paste 19:47:11 erm 19:47:20 ive NEVEr been able to do one till JUST NOW 19:47:24 heh 19:48:06 its a damned consipiracy 19:48:12 oh, I see why I can't get your whois information... 19:48:17 its like the electrical fault that goes away when the electrician comes 19:48:20 it's going to the query window rather than to the server output window 19:48:34 heh 19:48:55 I should get freebsd.1? 19:49:14 i dunno 19:49:18 whats freebsd.1 19:49:25 in your ftp 19:49:29 what file should I get? 19:49:30 ohh hehe 19:49:30 yes 19:49:32 thats the file 19:49:37 its the fbsd syscall sources 19:49:43 ya 19:49:45 thats file is the only diff between linux and fbsd 19:50:03 if fbsd requires ANY specifics that linux doesnt need - it goes in that file 19:50:11 also - any syscalls go in there 19:50:36 I do ./kernel.com then fload isforth.f? 19:50:54 is it legal in fbsd to sys_mprotect all code space to read/write/executable ? 19:50:58 yes 19:51:08 isforth.f is the kernell extend load file 19:51:30 if you get that to compile you will be dropped back to shell - and you will have a file called isforth 19:51:41 nod 19:51:49 * joa has done it for linux, actually 19:51:52 it looks pretty nice, btw :) 19:52:20 you are running linux ?? :) 19:52:21 cool 19:52:26 eh, ya heh 19:52:30 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 19:52:39 I kinda thought most people on OPN did, actually 19:52:45 seems a very linuxy place 19:53:32 nobody here dares run windows :) 19:54:00 sometimes i boot to windows - but rarely 19:54:09 heh :) 19:54:11 hehe my laptops uptime is a week :) 19:54:17 nobody dare's whine about windoze :) 19:54:30 cuz everybody just says "shut up and install linux already" 19:55:13 heh 19:55:27 I440r: what do you use ebp for? 19:55:41 its the return stack pointer 19:56:03 esp = parameter stack pointer 19:56:06 ebp is return stack 19:56:10 nod 19:56:13 esi = interpraative pointer 19:56:18 ebx = cached top of stack 19:56:22 everything else is scratch 19:56:46 but you cant use registers accross definitions 19:56:56 well. fs and gs you could probably use heh 19:57:07 any idea why ebp would point to 2? 19:57:20 the address 0x2 19:57:24 erm no idea what so ever 19:57:30 wait! 19:57:34 let me go look at that code 19:57:38 heh 19:57:50 * joa just thinks it looks suspicious but that's all 19:58:01 the syscalls save ebp and esi in memory locations on syscalls 19:58:05 and restore them before exit 19:58:16 if someone mashes on the address you can get fubarrd 19:58:36 well, it's 0x2 right here heh 19:58:57 in linux or in fbsd 19:59:10 only working on the freebsd side here 19:59:42 are you running gdb ? 19:59:47 I was 19:59:49 ok 19:59:50 do this 19:59:53 debug it again 20:00:07 and set a breakpoint on init_mem 20:00:14 and single step till you hit return 20:00:30 --- join: enth (~enth@CPE-203-45-206-253.qld.bigpond.net.au) joined #forth 20:00:36 ebp isnt pointing to the stack till after init is finished 20:00:45 its set JUST before we jump to default 20:01:21 is it legal i free bsd to set mem to readable, writeable and executable ? 20:01:35 is step the right command to use in gdb? 20:01:40 stepi 20:01:48 step instruction 20:01:59 alright 20:02:26 i think the parameters in that function are out of order 20:02:32 so im NOT setting the memory to rwx 20:02:40 thats why im getting a buss error i think 20:02:50 but ive no way of knowing 20:03:07 ebp is 0 at ret 20:03:15 0x8048281 in init_mem () 20:03:16 11: x/i $eip 0x8048281 : ret 20:03:18 ebp 0x0 0x0 20:03:30 * joa doesn't use gdb too much as you can see heh 20:03:49 except when I'm using C in which case I don't care about the registers all that much ;) 20:04:05 I find it extremely unfriendly to assembly programmers :( 20:04:41 though I think it's natural to find anything unfriendly to assembly programmers... they're not coding in assembly for the friendliness of the tools 20:04:44 gdb sucks big time 20:05:04 one of the things im going to add to isforthis a debugger that can single step through coded defs too 20:05:11 I generally manage to avoid using it except when I'm really desperate to find what's wrong with a program and can't 20:05:17 so if you step INTO a coded def it switches into using the assembler degugger 20:05:20 seamless 20:05:25 nice 20:05:43 but ill need an assembler extension that allows programming of the debug registers 20:06:00 I think gdb is actually pretty good for debugging theoretically but it lacks all friendliness one would expect in an angry pittbull 20:06:10 heh 20:06:26 its not as bad as some NEC emulators ive had to use 20:06:33 anyway, what do you now know of ebp? 20:06:46 If you think GDB is bad, try using Metrowerks Codewarrior's tethered debugger. 20:06:57 heh 20:06:58 heh 20:07:04 I prefer not to use debuggers and get the code right the first time :/ 20:07:11 optimistic assembly is depressing though :/ 20:07:30 That's not always possible, though it can be done using rigerous XP techniques. 20:08:11 kc5tja: XP? I find it someone suspicious when anyone says that it even IS possible though I've managed to write bugless code before 20:08:20 rarely though those times may be ;) 20:09:45 I've used XP for about a year now. 20:10:03 kc5tja: are you talking Windows XP? 20:10:08 And while it won't prevent you from making mistakes in your code, it *WILL* help prevent you from releasing those mistakes in released software. 20:10:15 No, I'm talking about Extreme Programming. 20:10:17 I couldn't see how... 20:10:19 ohhhhhh 20:10:23 oh okay :) 20:10:37 could you brief me on what that is? 20:10:50 aside from something with books that look like the covers were done in the gimp ;) 20:11:09 extremeprogramming.org 20:11:22 1. Paired programming. 2. Extensive unit tests. 3. Code productivity estimation. 4. Project velocity. 20:11:38 5. No code ownership. 6. Regular, rapid releases. 20:11:53 (in no particular order) 20:12:01 kc5 who is your pair on your current project ? 20:12:09 I don't have a pair. 20:12:12 That's half the problem. 20:12:28 would your company front the money to bring one in ? 20:12:39 i volunteer 20:12:40 We're spread way too thin to be doing paired programming now (which I sorely disagree with, but I digress) 20:12:50 Nope. 20:12:52 doh :P 20:12:53 We have a hard hiring freeze. 20:13:03 dont hire 20:13:06 contract out :) 20:14:07 My expenses exceed my income as it is. I can't hire you. 20:14:19 Let alone pay for relocation. 20:15:30 maybe i wouldnt need to relocate 20:16:16 but if it cant be done it cant be done :) 20:16:26 You would for this stuff. We're working with lab equipment here. 20:17:21 aha 20:26:09 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:36:10 well im off to sleep 20:36:15 futhin are you tehre ? 20:38:19 --- quit: I440r ("zzzz") 20:38:34 --- quit: Forth (Remote closed the connection) 20:39:50 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-113.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 20:52:28 HEY!! TODAY IS FRIDAY!! YES!!! 20:52:35 I totally forgot today was Friday! w00t. 20:56:33 heh :) 21:05:15 hm, 5 stock questions 21:05:23 onetom: got any more questions? heh 21:06:10 actually 21:06:16 more than 5 21:07:25 --- join: Al23 (Al@210-86-39-77.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 21:08:25 I'll be back 21:09:03 --- quit: Al23 (Client Quit) 21:10:35 I think I was going to ask about what endeavors were his most profitable, or something like that. 21:12:54 yes 21:12:58 i'm reading the logs 21:13:07 got 8 stock questions so far 21:13:13 i'm not really planning a strickly formal interview 21:13:21 just some questions to get the ball rolling 21:13:32 and people participating in a discussion with chuck moore.. 21:14:17 s/strickly/strictly 21:14:21 bah, tired :) 21:19:07 i hope i don't miss out 21:19:11 i might be busy tomorrow :( 21:20:39 kc5tja: i agree about the self-documenting code.. saves time & effort in the long run 21:22:43 Ditto for me; I'm not sure I can be here tomorrow. 21:22:52 --- join: BigBoyToddy (~bbt@co-trinidad1a-22.lbrlks.adelphia.net) joined #forth 21:23:09 2 4 power users 21:23:38 hey bigboy, back again? :P 21:24:06 you must be excited, to be leaving and arriving so many times ;) 21:24:33 Oh, I'm excited alright, where may I find the text of the last conversation with CM, at www.colorforth.com? 21:25:36 ? 21:26:21 It was mentioned here earlier today when I arrived for the first time, that Chuck Moore had terse responses to questions the last time he was here. I again ask, is there a location (URL) of the text of that conversation, question and answer session? 21:26:29 ah 21:26:45 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 21:26:49 thanks!!! 21:26:51 No; I was referring to when ChipChuck was talking to futhin 21:26:54 :) 21:27:02 kc5tja: now that is funny. 21:27:09 Also, just listen to any of his fireside chats. 21:27:21 He's incredibly terse, even when standing in front of a crowd. 21:27:32 kc5tja: could you generate a question based on the argument you had with onetom for chuck moore?? 21:27:38 Yep, that stuff is great. I have done so, without sound. Even great to watch him and his movements, gestures (or lack there of) and the meaning of it all. 21:27:40 However, I really do enjoy looking at his IDE harddrive code, though. :) 21:28:11 kc5tja: some question about coding style, conventions, and the weird "attendent.PersonName" 21:28:15 My emails with him were terse, very terse. :o) 21:28:45 bigboytoddy: his replies to yours? 21:28:54 I don't seem able to get to site http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 21:29:10 kc5tja: a question to get chuck's opinion about the issue you and onetom were discussing? 21:29:15 Try www.tunes.org instead of just tunes.org -- sometimes, that makes a difference. 21:29:20 hmm, that's what I'm getting from /who clog... 21:29:22 futhin: just the conversation, which ranged from FORTH and its historical meaning to his wife and her spinning wool (which I have done too). 21:29:34 futhin: An interesting idea. I can predict what he'll say though. 21:29:47 "Structures are evil, bad, and bad Forth practice." 21:29:48 :) 21:29:50 kc5tja: ah, but lets get the words from his mouth :P 21:29:59 exactly. 21:29:59 kc5tja: besides, the more stock questions, the merrier :) 21:30:03 Oh, and the 'www' didn't help. 21:30:09 OK, if you insist. Write that question down, if you haven't already, just in case I'm not here. 21:30:17 bigboytoddy: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.04.27 21:30:20 Can you email them the me... Please... I would like to avoid asking question she has already answered. 21:30:46 Funny, www.tunes.org resolves to tunes.org and isn't found. 21:30:56 she = he :o) 21:30:58 kc5tja: what question? the one you are about to type? 21:31:04 Personally, I don't feel structures are bad Forth practice. Like any other tool, it takes skill to use correctly. 21:31:27 exactly, a jack hammer is appropriate when doing foundation work, not when doing dental work. 21:31:31 Or is it.??? 21:31:33 206.63.100.249 21:31:38 Depends on your patient. ;D 21:31:49 Got it. 21:32:02 futhin: The issue on structures. 21:32:47 kc5tja: i was asking you to generate a question, as i don't fully understand the issue about the structures 21:32:59 Well, if I remember, I'll ask him. 21:33:08 there was no question.. was there? 21:33:18 There were several, actually. 21:33:27 well, I'm going to go see if I can't get this forth to boot properly...see you 21:33:32 oh? so i just have to keep reading the log? 21:33:37 onetom wanted concise structure field names, where Forth would know a priori what something like ">name" meant. 21:33:40 --- quit: tathi ("Leaving") 21:33:59 kc5tja: i caught your profitability question, but i haven't caught any others yet 21:34:19 * kc5tja said that it wasn't possible with existing Forths, because existing Forths are typeless languages. And so, I outlined my solution to the problem that is both human readable and unambiguous to the computer. 21:34:34 I see, chuck has not come and visited yet, this was the dia/tribe|log about when he is coming, and he has agreed. That is fine, yet I got the impression he has already visited briefly a few days ago. 21:34:36 And the discussion kind of degraded from there. 21:34:37 My mistake, sorry. 21:35:04 do you have more questions in the log for chuck moore? if you don't, i was asking you to generate a good stock question regarding the issue of structures, please make one up without worrying about it.. 21:35:05 He did. That's how we learned he was coming at 2PM tomorrow. 21:35:21 Well, there really isn't any issue. 21:35:24 bigboytoddy: nothing much was discussed 21:35:39 bigboytoddy: so you aren't missing anything yet :P 21:35:44 kc5tja: so where is that conversation, I don't see chuck talking in this http://206.63.100.249/~nef/logs/forth/02.04.27 URL text log 21:35:58 To a text search for "chipchuck" (case insensitive) 21:36:02 Is Chuck the blue wizard. 21:36:06 uh, i gave you the wrong url 21:36:11 i just gave you a random url 21:36:15 nope, not there. 21:36:15 to see if you could connect 21:36:16 heh 21:36:20 * kc5tja cracks up 21:36:29 A random URL? Relying on chance to do the work, eh? ;D 21:36:36 the url that i was at 21:36:44 i just gave it to him, to see if he could connect heh 21:36:52 futhin: thanks man, you are a pal! 21:37:05 hehehehe, funny. 21:37:27 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.01 21:37:29 time a wasting, please provide real URL to real conversation with chipchuck (or upchuck, groundchuck... :o) 21:37:32 that's the correct one 21:37:51 sorry :) 21:38:19 i couldn't be bothered to find the correct url at the time :P 21:38:28 Like futhin said, you're not missing too much. Nothing of serious consequence was discussed. Except, he did distinctly point out that IRC wasn't terribly intellectually demanding. 21:38:52 yeah 21:39:02 except i have a hardtime multitasking with irc 21:39:14 it's this stupid mIRC's interface :P 21:39:49 * kc5tja ponders creating a Win32 IRC client called JIRC... ;D 21:40:02 well, i _do_ multitask 21:40:05 j/k 21:40:06 but rarely with anything productive 21:40:25 i don't code when i have irc going at the same time 21:40:27 gah 21:40:41 and i check way too frequently :P 21:40:51 in the last 2 minutes i've switched back and forth 200 times 21:41:18 :) 21:42:08 Wow, chuck is indeed terse with you guys. Much more than I experienced, but heck it wasn't interactive, so I can understand. Man, terse is almost too much verbosity to explain it. :9) 21:42:34 Told ya... :) 21:42:34 i could get used to it :) 21:45:13 kc5tja, you were right on! 21:45:32 me too (lets practice shall we :o) 21:46:28 lojban seems interesting to me :) 21:46:33 www.lojban.org 21:46:56 about lojban, it says "your new perspective on language, ambiguity, and communication will allow you to express those thoughts more clearly, even when you use an ambiguous natural language." 21:47:01 if you learn it that is 21:47:05 sounds good to me :P 21:48:07 Well, I'm working at it. 21:49:02 * kc5tja yawns 21:49:08 * kc5tja is getting somewhat sleepy. 21:56:07 * futhin has 30 minutes to clean up the house in record-time! yay! :P 21:56:58 kc5tja: you are amazing, you have been here all day, you are the durable forth guy. 21:57:15 futhin: Better get cracking then. :) 21:57:31 BigBoyToddy: ?? I just opened up the client, and am working in another window on my project. 21:57:45 No more reliable than someone else who has nothing better to do. :) 21:57:45 I just got another book, this one called FORTH fundamentals, volume 1, not bad, read 40+ pages and it is a good read, easy and informational. 21:58:19 I'll finish it this weekend and give ya all a rating on it, 1-10, if folks want. 21:58:36 The library expands as we speak... bloat ware on the shelves of my library. 22:00:24 I think this session with CM should be moderated, to one person who is FORTH neutral, and give CM a chance to think and respond. Has anyone thought of this approach? 22:00:33 I'm still readin' the log. 22:01:19 Yes, but I'm not aware of how to do it. 22:01:29 * kc5tja is not an IRC guru like some ohers. 22:01:34 s/ohers/others/ 22:02:25 kc5tja: I highly, highly recommend this approach, I have been in free for all cluster F*** situations on IRC (been IRC'in for 13+ years now) and man it just ain't pretty when it happens without moderation. Especially like CM is, and the topic of FORTH as heated as it can be with FORTH folks being anal and all :o) 22:02:43 --- part: enth left #forth 22:02:44 (that was intended to be a compliment with a back handed slap too to those that are anal retentive in nature). 22:03:12 Well, supposedly, the voice system is intended to handle that. 22:03:16 But again, I don't know how to use it. 22:04:23 well, since it sounds like you are the man on the server, maybe you could learn about it over night. Besides, this is important, maybe setting a more than 'one money shot' for the crowd. Refactory period could be weeks, but still worth visits as things move along, if ever they do again for FORTH (which I hope they do). 22:05:08 I know I'd need to be chanop for it to work. 22:05:32 I'll try to find out what I can, but no promises. 22:16:09 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 22:16:09 --- quit: BigBoyToddy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:20:54 Well, I think I'm going to hit the sack. 22:20:55 night all 22:21:08 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:38:02 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:23:48 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:53:25 --- join: GilbertBSD (~gilbert@m155.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 23:53:56 hi gilbertbsd 23:54:00 hi futhin 23:54:08 got any questions for chuck? :) 23:54:14 yeah I think so. 23:55:00 I would probably just listen. 23:55:46 tell me the questions 23:55:55 i'm collecting questions.. 23:56:04 ah its gonna be moderated? 23:56:17 most likely 23:56:21 good idea. 23:57:04 was his the first stack based language? 23:58:05 hm, good question, but i'm not sure if it is worth chuck's time to ask him that question 23:58:19 hey hey 23:58:22 =) 23:58:44 I don't know off-hand, but I am confident it wasn't the first stack language 23:58:58 so who to ask? 23:59:07 *shrug* 23:59:08 I just wanna know the inspiration for the language. 23:59:18 ok, the inspiration 23:59:23 well, he has talked about that...although in a roundabout kind of way 23:59:28 that can be done in a different question 23:59:36 "what was your inspiration for the language?" 23:59:39 or something similar 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.05.03