00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.05.01
00:33:34 <goshawk`> I really like how you can change the terminal size of this telnet client (I'm running 50 (rows) x 100 (characters)
00:33:36 <goshawk`> w/c
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00:57:05 <goshawk`> g'day
00:57:10 <goshawk`> and take care all
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00:57:14 <MrReach> hihi!
00:57:17 <MrReach> byebye!
00:57:29 <MrReach> gforth: 1 2 . .
00:57:35 <gforth> MrReach: 2 1 
00:57:44 <MrReach> gforth: version
00:57:48 <gforth> MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1
00:57:49 <gforth> MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word
00:57:49 <gforth> MrReach: version
00:57:49 <gforth> MrReach: ^^^^^^^
00:57:49 <gforth> MrReach: Backtrace:
00:57:50 <gforth> MrReach: $4011D188 throw 
00:57:52 <gforth> MrReach: $401271E8 no.extensions 
00:58:17 <MrReach> gforth: 1 . cr 2 .
00:58:21 <gforth> MrReach: 1 
00:58:21 <gforth> MrReach: 2 
00:58:26 <MrReach> coolness
00:58:47 <MrReach> gforth: : test ." fubared" ; test
00:58:52 <gforth> MrReach: fubared
00:58:58 <MrReach> gforth: test
00:59:02 <gforth> MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1
00:59:02 <gforth> MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word
00:59:02 <gforth> MrReach: test
00:59:02 <gforth> MrReach: ^^^^
00:59:02 <gforth> MrReach: Backtrace:
00:59:04 <gforth> MrReach: $4011D188 throw 
00:59:06 <gforth> MrReach: $401271E8 no.extensions 
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02:52:28 <rob_ert> Hi mr. Fare
02:55:57 <Fare> gakuk
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09:53:33 <rob_ert> wb
09:53:46 <MrReach> thank you
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09:58:02 <rob_ert> A Speuler!
09:58:14 <MrReach> heh
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10:16:45 <tathi> blah blah blah...
10:17:00 <MrReach> one of THOSE days, eh?
10:17:21 <tathi> let's hear it for boring meetings :)
10:19:22 <tathi> 11. Try to make the speaker's head explode -- Using just your force of will, try to make the speaker's head blow up. They think you're being attentive when you're acually thinking "come on, come on. blow up already. boom! splat! do it. do it."
10:19:44 * MrReach laughs out loud.
10:20:00 <MrReach> god, I wonder if the speaker felt animosity from the room
10:20:15 <tathi> :)
10:20:43 <tathi> from http://www.c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?ActivitiesForBoringMeetings
10:20:54 <MrReach> wouldn't you jump out of your skin if s/he turned to you and said "I'm not going to suddenly explode, so just knock it off."
10:21:04 <tathi> yikes :)
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10:29:28 <rob_ert> Hi
10:29:31 <futhin> la la la la ala la la la
10:29:34 <futhin> fa la lalalalala
10:29:41 <futhin> hi hi hi hi howdy hi
10:29:48 <MrReach> futhin: happy birthday ... what are you doing for it?
10:29:49 <futhin> speak up everybody now is the time to sing!
10:30:02 <futhin> mrreach: eh?
10:30:08 <futhin> happy birthday?
10:30:10 <futhin> :)
10:30:11 <MrReach> I only sing when stinking drunk ... but I sing pretty good then
10:30:15 <futhin> heh
10:30:27 <MrReach> ICQ told me this morning that tomorrow is your birthday
10:30:30 <futhin> ahhhh
10:30:32 <futhin> yeah
10:30:36 <MrReach> did you lie to ICQ?
10:30:38 <futhin> i keep quiet about it usually :P
10:30:43 <futhin> i forgot about it too
10:30:48 <MrReach> haha!
10:31:20 <MrReach> well, consider yourself reminded ... now you have reason to grumble
10:31:24 <futhin> heheh
10:32:09 <futhin> so much fun, i have absolutely no pressure on me to do anything at all today :P
10:32:21 <rob_ert> How old do you get? ;P
10:32:23 <futhin> until i remember whatever i have to do :P
10:32:28 <futhin> rob_ert: 21
10:32:33 <rob_ert> :)
10:32:45 <futhin> i've been lying and saying i'm 21 for the last 5 months
10:32:47 <futhin> bwahahaha
10:32:48 <MrReach> same here, but my goddaughter is coming over this weekend, and I'm thinking of taking her and wifey to the lake in the camper
10:32:52 <rob_ert> If you don't count me as a person, you're the youngest person in here futhin!
10:32:59 <futhin> lol rob
10:33:03 <MrReach> it needs about 8 hrs of work before it's ready to role
10:33:40 <futhin> mrreach: on days with absolutely no obligation, it is best to eat carb-heavy foods until you are bursting, and then sleep the sleep of the dead   (the food making you tired..)
10:33:56 <futhin> and then wake up utterly disoriented 3 hours later
10:33:58 <MrReach> futhin: that's an excellent idea!
10:34:03 <futhin> so it's noon right now
10:34:10 <MrReach> unless you're watching your weight
10:34:11 <futhin> and i'll probably go to bed soon
10:34:17 <futhin> and wake up at 2 or 3
10:34:24 <futhin> and be utterly disoriented for the rest of the day
10:34:28 <futhin> great feeling ;)
10:34:33 <futhin> or not
10:34:37 <futhin> increases the moodiness
10:34:41 <MrReach> heh, my ulcer perforated Sunday, so I've been sleeping alot (blood loss)
10:35:01 <MrReach> so I probably won't be gorging this weekend
10:35:10 <futhin> it'll heal ?
10:35:18 <MrReach> yes, healed now
10:35:40 <futhin> hm, i good sleep now or be productive
10:35:41 <futhin> hmm
10:36:02 <futhin> s/good/could
10:36:07 <futhin> big mess up
10:36:18 <MrReach> Freudian typo??
10:36:20 <futhin> i'm affected by the carb-heavy foods more than i thought
10:36:55 <futhin> probably falls under the category of freudian typo,  i typed it without thinking about the typing at all
10:37:07 <futhin> woo, getting dizzy
10:37:08 <futhin> lol :P
10:37:15 <futhin> <-- adventurous ;)
10:37:47 <futhin> someday i'm gonna stop these random pigging out
10:37:50 <futhin> i'm not actually fat
10:37:54 <futhin> slightly chubby
10:38:06 <MrReach> I tend towards scrawny
10:38:06 <futhin> happy-guy chubby ;)
10:38:18 <MrReach> at 160, I feel way overweight
10:39:54 <tathi> happy b'day futhin
10:39:55 <futhin> how tall are you?
10:39:55 <MrReach> 5'10"
10:39:55 <futhin> tathi: happy b'day to u! :P
10:39:55 <futhin> ah, i'm same..  big-boned though, and 220 pounds bleh :P
10:39:55 <MrReach> I miss my late teens/early 20s
10:39:55 <rob_ert> 220? That's alot even if you count in a real system
10:39:55 <MrReach> used to be built like a brick shithouse
10:39:55 <futhin> yeah i plan on getting down to 165 someday
10:39:55 <futhin> 165 = all muscle
10:40:11 <MrReach> that's 145-150 for me
10:40:32 <futhin> well i'm naturally a big guy..
10:40:47 <MrReach> how tall?
10:40:51 <futhin> 5'10 to 5'11 ..
10:41:06 <futhin> i bet if i lost 50 pounds i'd be taller heh
10:41:17 <futhin> and gained back/stomach muscle
10:41:25 <MrReach> yeah, sounds like you need less carbs than I
10:41:49 <MrReach> but I'm fussy about my weight ... I hate feeling slow
10:42:02 <futhin> heh yeah
10:42:16 <futhin> slow as in sluggish?
10:42:17 <MrReach> (subconciously fussy, I _never_ think about it)
10:42:31 <MrReach> erm ...
10:42:56 <MrReach> reach for my coffee cup, takes effort to get my arm accelerated
10:43:08 <MrReach> can't jog up 6 flights of stairs
10:43:20 <futhin> i can..
10:43:25 <MrReach> (of course, I'm a heavy smoker, so that has something to do with it)
10:45:31 <MrReach> I can, too, but when I can't it *really* bothers me
10:45:31 <MrReach> the years of handstand-pushups are gone foreever
10:45:31 <futhin> i'm fat, but i've got muscle in the necessary places..   i do exercise every now and then
10:45:31 <futhin> heh, the only time i managed to do handstand-pushups was when i was 11 years old
10:45:31 <futhin> or 12
10:45:31 <futhin> i recently read a very interesting chapter in a book about habits
10:45:50 <MrReach> oh?
10:46:06 <futhin> habits are behavior that a person does relatively consistently and with ease, due to the mind being so familiar with it, that the mind naturally filters it out
10:46:26 <MrReach> yes, very hard to think about habits
10:46:32 <futhin> and it's easier to start a habit than to break a habit
10:46:39 <futhin> so the trick is to start a habit that replaces a bad habit
10:46:47 <MrReach> hmmm ...
10:46:49 <futhin> and i think that's what i really need to be doing
10:46:53 <futhin> building some good habits
10:46:58 <futhin> replacing some of the bad habits i have
10:47:10 <MrReach> quite so, my father used to say that to me all the time
10:47:47 <futhin> in some other book i read, its supposed to take about 21 days to develop a habit
10:48:21 <futhin> if i start building all these good habits, i can get into the habit of building habits :P
10:48:23 <MrReach> yes, I was taught 18 days in high school
10:48:34 <futhin> 18 days? interesting
10:48:44 <futhin> 18 days seems a lot more achievable than 21 :P
10:48:44 <MrReach> actually, it might be valueable to habitually examine your own habits
10:48:58 <MrReach> who cares? it's three days difference
10:49:03 <futhin> i have made a list of habits that i want to establish
10:49:07 <futhin> came up with 25
10:53:00 <MrReach> at some point in that range, you'll simply start doing the new habit w/o thought
10:53:00 <futhin> it was hard thiking of what habits i wanted at first
10:53:00 <futhin> but then i came up with 25 :)
10:53:00 <futhin> and i probably have more habits that i want
10:53:00 <futhin> i'm going to sort them from easy to hard
10:53:00 <futhin> and prioritise them too :P
10:53:00 <MrReach> heh
10:53:00 <futhin> changing my eating habits is going to be a big thing
10:53:01 <futhin> probably difficult too 
10:53:01 <futhin> where do people come up with the numbers "18" or "21" ?
10:53:01 <futhin> for habits
10:53:01 <futhin> i think it would simplify my life a lot if i was able to get into the habit of building and maintaining good habits
10:53:01 <MrReach> brb, wanna show you something
10:53:23 <futhin> i have everything in place, for me, building good habits is all i need to succeed beyond my wildest dreams :)
10:55:35 <MrReach> back
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10:56:06 <MrReach> there's the bot
10:56:12 <MrReach> it'll leave shortly
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10:56:52 <futhin> heh
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11:01:06 <futhin> hmm
11:01:13 <futhin> i think i'm getting tired enough to fall asleep
11:01:18 <futhin> gonna lie down bwahaha
11:01:27 <MrReach> ok, have a pleasant nap
11:01:40 <rob_ert> Sleep well
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11:11:50 <MrBot> I'm so lame I only know how to QUIT.
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11:13:07 <rob_ert> Hehe
11:19:12 <MrReach> trying to identify users gets really complicated when the bot is connected to several networks at once
11:19:25 * MrReach sighs.
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11:34:38 <MrBot> I'm so lame I only know how to QUIT.
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12:21:44 <joa> heh
12:22:13 <joa> er I mean *returns to stealth mode*
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13:23:56 <rob_ert> Hello
13:25:24 <rob_ert> Chuck Moore, eh?
13:27:38 <chipChuck> yeah
13:27:50 <rob_ert> Good evening.
13:28:24 <chipChuck> James wants me to do an on-line interview
13:28:33 <chipChuck> So I'm here to explore this world
13:28:39 <rob_ert> James = futhin?
13:28:49 <chipChuck> dunno
13:29:18 <chipChuck> Benoit-Robey
13:29:25 <rob_ert> :-?
13:30:06 <chipChuck> well, he'll sort it out
13:30:42 <rob_ert> After his nap, that is.
13:38:17 <rob_ert> sif: .( :))
13:38:19 <sif> rob_ert: :  Word not found: )  
13:38:40 <rob_ert> sif: : n ." :)" ; n
13:38:41 <sif> rob_ert: :)    
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13:44:45 <rob_ert> Hi Soap`
13:45:41 <Soap`> hello
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13:58:13 <gilbertbsd> hullo
13:58:51 <rob_ert> Hello there.
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14:01:45 <futhin> oooh!!!!!!!!
14:01:47 --- join: chipChuck (chipChuck@user-2ivfms8.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth
14:01:53 <futhin> hi chuck moore
14:01:56 <gilbertbsd> hi futhin
14:01:57 <futhin> i'm james benoit-robey
14:02:08 <chipChuck> So I gathered
14:02:10 * futhin is going to check his email now
14:02:19 <rob_ert> Welcome back.
14:02:28 <futhin> yeah, in my first email to you, i typed (aka futhin)  :)
14:02:45 <rob_ert> futhin: Are you canadian or something?
14:02:52 <futhin> yes..
14:02:56 <futhin> why do you ask?
14:03:22 <gilbertbsd> futhin:  what is 'or something'
14:03:24 <gilbertbsd> ;)
14:03:29 <gilbertbsd> or where is that?
14:04:15 <rob_ert> futhin: Your name indicates france or canada ;)
14:04:20 <rob_ert> And I see no .fr
14:04:26 <joa> poutine!
14:04:50 <futhin> rob_ert: my name is a combination acronym..
14:05:01 <joa> well, that's usually a crowd winner with canadians :)
14:05:57 <futhin> rob_ert: oops..  i didn't realize you were talking about "James Benoit-Robey"
14:05:58 <rob_ert> Are you going to make some interview now?
14:06:03 <rob_ert> Heh
14:06:15 <rob_ert> Of course I didn't mean the IRC nick :)
14:06:34 <futhin> yeah, the "benoit" is french, from my mom's side, and "robey" from my dad's side
14:06:47 <futhin> when i marry, i'll probably take my wife's last name ;)
14:06:54 <futhin> to simplify my last name
14:06:54 <rob_ert> Hehe
14:07:04 <joa> heh
14:07:07 * rob_ert thinks of Benoit Mandelbrot :)
14:07:26 <futhin> i assume chipChuck is just going to lurk for now, and find out what life is like on #forth
14:07:53 <chipChuck> I hardly know what to say
14:07:57 <rob_ert> Yeah, and write a paper on "The poor kids who live on IRC and have no lifes."
14:08:09 <joa> chipChuck: don't say poutine... gets no response
14:08:37 <chipChuck> Won't
14:08:42 <rob_ert> Hmm... why would anyone say that? :)
14:08:57 <futhin> joa: had nothing to say about poutine except something like "it's a true canadian food! invented by canadians!"
14:09:00 <joa> rob_ert: it's usually a real crowd winner with canadians :)
14:09:12 * chipChuck sorting photos
14:09:13 <rob_ert> Hmm... OK.
14:09:21 <joa> futhin: most reply with POUTINE!!!, actually heh
14:09:34 * rob_ert wonders how sane joa really is.
14:09:37 <futhin> heh
14:09:40 <chipChuck> This doesn't seem to demand full attention
14:09:45 <futhin> joa: you are canadian?
14:09:58 <joa> futhin: nah... alaskan.  we have no True Cheese
14:10:19 <rob_ert> Hah
14:10:30 <futhin> chipChuck: yeah we aren't talking about forth right now..  we usually do talk about forth though :)
14:10:39 <joa> heh futhin... 13:10 < H|G> isnt "poutine" a president of some country?  B)
14:10:44 <rob_ert> futhin: Liar... :)
14:10:56 <futhin> uh well maybe i am
14:11:02 <futhin> i only remember the forth discussions ;)
14:11:19 <rob_ert> Like he said, 1% attention is enough ;-)
14:11:38 <futhin> chipChuck: for some reason, i'm not able to access my email at this time..  have you sent an email?
14:12:00 <chipChuck> No. I was going to, but here you are
14:12:06 <futhin> ah ok :)
14:12:22 * rob_ert wonders what the average age in here is now
14:12:24 <rob_ert> *hides*
14:13:04 <gilbertbsd> who is chipChuck?
14:13:07 <futhin> chipChuck: Is showing up on a saturday inconvenient for you?
14:13:18 <futhin> gilbertbsd:  Chuck Moore, inventor of Forth :)
14:13:23 <gilbertbsd> no way!!!
14:13:32 <futhin> yes way heh :)
14:13:40 <chipChuck> Fine with me
14:13:40 <gilbertbsd> GOD is here?
14:13:46 <rob_ert> Ask him to identify himself ;-)
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14:13:51 <rob_ert> Hi davidw_
14:14:02 <gilbertbsd> chipChuck:  are you GOD?
14:14:02 <chipChuck> Children of a lesser god
14:14:22 * rob_ert laughs
14:14:29 <gilbertbsd> chipChuck: how did people learn forth back in the day?
14:14:32 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw
14:14:39 <gilbertbsd> was it all by word of mouth?
14:14:41 <rob_ert> gilbertbsd: Tell him you want to be like him whem you grow up.
14:14:58 <gilbertbsd> yeah I wanna be like you when I grow up :) 
14:15:10 <futhin> hey come on guys, we don't want to scare him away :)
14:15:11 <chipChuck> No you don't
14:15:23 <gilbertbsd> okay ... how did people learn forth back in the day?
14:15:29 <gilbertbsd> was there a 'first ever tutorial'
14:15:30 <gilbertbsd> ?
14:16:07 <rob_ert> I
14:16:13 <rob_ert> oops
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14:16:25 * chipChuck trying to recall
14:16:32 <rob_ert> I'll go away now (time to sleep)... I don't want to scare away God.
14:16:36 <rob_ert> (Happy now, futhin?)
14:16:42 <rob_ert> Night people
14:16:42 <joa> night rob_ert :)
14:16:46 <gilbertbsd> I believe the first ever person must have learnt directly from you.
14:16:50 <futhin> heh, you don't have to go to sleep..
14:16:58 <rob_ert> Yes I do
14:17:00 <rob_ert> School tomorrow :/
14:17:06 <futhin> ok, sleep tight then
14:17:10 <rob_ert> :)
14:17:11 <chipChuck> Must have
14:17:55 <futhin> chipChuck:  i remember reading in some of the articles on www.ultratechnology.com  that you coded a gui in 2 or 3 kilobytes?
14:18:10 <chipChuck> Sure
14:18:17 <gilbertbsd> wow.
14:18:39 <chipChuck> You can do it the hard way, or you can do it the easy way
14:18:57 <futhin> which way did you do it?
14:18:57 <gilbertbsd> what are these ways?
14:19:05 <davidw> just like the dilbert cartoon... "back in the day, we only had 1's and 0's, and sometimes we didn't even have ones, why, once, I coded an entire database with just 0's"
14:19:32 <chipChuck> Windows/Unix can make a big deal about nothing
14:19:42 <joa> davidw: heh
14:20:19 <herkamire> chipChuck: do you have friends that use your colorforth system? Is anybody contributing code?
14:20:37 <chipChuck> Yes
14:20:52 <chipChuck> The problem is no one is spending money
14:21:03 <tathi> on colorforth?
14:21:25 <chipChuck> Yeah. Or maybe on Forth
14:21:49 <joa> what would the money go to?
14:22:23 <chipChuck> Food, drink
14:22:30 <futhin> are a lot of people buying forth chips these days ?
14:22:46 <chipChuck> Not since 9/11
14:23:32 <herkamire> what does 9/11 have to do with it?
14:24:01 <davidw> forth is seen as kind of al quaeda-esque?
14:24:12 <chipChuck> Business stopped spending money
14:24:31 <futhin> is forthchips your main source of income?
14:24:49 <chipChuck> Forth is revolutionary in that sense
14:24:59 <futhin> or do you get hired for consultancy a lot ?
14:25:27 <chipChuck> Chips. Consulting rare
14:25:27 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting")
14:25:58 <futhin> i discovered forth about 12 months ago..
14:26:14 <futhin> and one thing that i kind of noticed, was that forth wasn't really promoted very well..
14:26:28 <chipChuck> Do tell
14:26:44 <futhin> hm?  you agree?
14:26:47 <chipChuck> Many have tried. Few with success
14:26:55 <gilbertbsd> why do you think mr CM?
14:27:07 <gilbertbsd> I use freebsd, and it is used as the bootloader...
14:27:18 <chipChuck> I don't know..
14:27:19 <gilbertbsd> and the forth they have there seems to work superbly!
14:27:21 <herkamire> chipChuck: is there colorforth source available somewhere?
14:27:29 <davidw> herkamire: on the web site
14:27:33 <davidw> colorforth.com
14:27:52 <davidw> it's all i386 assembler though
14:27:59 <chipChuck> We have debated Forth's lack of acceptance for 30 years
14:28:14 <davidw> maybe you should team up with the lisp folks;-)
14:28:22 <gilbertbsd> and the apl folks...
14:28:22 <herkamire> hehe
14:28:27 <chipChuck> Would you prefer colorForth source in colorForth?
14:28:31 <gilbertbsd> all superb languages  lacking mainstream appeal.
14:28:37 <futhin> i think that Forth is lacking some things:   there's not a whole lot of presence on the internet,  there's not a whole lot of source code available and easily accessible..
14:28:52 <gilbertbsd> sure mr. CM colorforth in Colorforth would be superb.
14:29:00 <futhin> chipChuck:  do you have colorForth source in colorForth?
14:29:13 <chipChuck> Working on it
14:29:56 * davidw is pretty sold on preemptive multitasking, virtual memory, and all that
14:30:10 <chipChuck> Need to go. Saturday? What time
14:30:17 <herkamire> oh wait, does COLOR.COM have any colorforth code in it?
14:30:19 <futhin> what time is convenient for you?
14:30:25 <chipChuck> Yes
14:30:26 <davidw> herkamire: that's where it must be
14:30:38 <davidw> herkamire: if you just boot the compiled asm, it doesn't do anything
14:30:55 <futhin> chipChuck: it's okay with you if i advertise the online interview on comp.lang.forth ? 
14:31:07 <davidw> herkamire: there is a site somewhere where the guy translated the asm in something that you can use with the gnu assembler
14:31:07 <chipChuck> Doesn't matter. When most people present?
14:31:19 <futhin> doesn't matter, they'll be here :)
14:31:22 <futhin> heh
14:31:23 <futhin> uh
14:31:26 <herkamire> I don't have X86 hardware
14:31:27 <gilbertbsd> people don't really leave ...
14:31:55 <futhin> how about 2 pm  your time
14:31:58 <chipChuck> Sure. Try your hand at promoting
14:32:07 <gilbertbsd> I try hard mr CM 
14:32:10 <futhin> uh,  you are (GMT+8:00) right
14:32:15 <gilbertbsd> people are intimidated by the language
14:32:21 <chipChuck> Ok. 2PM PDT
14:32:28 <futhin> PDT? :)
14:32:34 <gilbertbsd> pacific day time?
14:32:36 <futhin> ok
14:32:50 <davidw> daylight, as in daylight savings time
14:32:58 <herkamire> that's GMT -7 right?
14:33:07 <futhin> chipChuck:  somebody recommended i invite jeff fox
14:33:13 <futhin> chipChuck: so i was thinking of doing that
14:33:17 <chipChuck> Absolutely
14:33:21 <futhin> herkamire:  i'm in GMT-7
14:33:29 <rob_ert> Who's Jeff Fox?
14:33:30 <futhin> i think chuck is in GMT-8  ?
14:33:40 <futhin> or GMT-6 ?
14:33:44 <futhin> will find out :P
14:34:00 <gilbertbsd> here is something...
14:34:04 <futhin> no, pacific = GMT -8
14:34:07 <gilbertbsd> mr CM what time is it now at your place?
14:34:17 <futhin> rob_ert: jeff fox is the guy who runs www.ultratechnology.com
14:34:25 <rob_ert> Okay
14:34:26 <gilbertbsd> we'll synchronize our watches based on that.
14:34:56 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting")
14:35:02 <chipChuck> 1429
14:35:08 <futhin> gilbertbsd:  3:30 pm for me , therefore 2:30 pm for him..
14:35:21 <gilbertbsd> excellent
14:35:33 --- quit: chipChuck ("Till then")
14:35:42 <rob_ert> Hmm... when's that in GMT?
14:35:45 <rob_ert> And what day?
14:35:58 <gilbertbsd> +8 on saturday robert
14:36:00 <davidw> so, was that actually chuck moore, or someone shitting us?
14:36:01 * rob_ert wants to be there!
14:36:11 <joa> it's 1:35PM here and one hour behind pacific
14:36:17 <futhin> 2 + 8 = 10pm GMT
14:36:23 <rob_ert> Okay
14:36:27 <rob_ert> Great time
14:36:31 <rob_ert> in the evening for me
14:36:33 <joa> where's chuck moore live?
14:36:35 <rob_ert> Like midninght
14:36:41 <futhin> rob_ert: heh, sorry
14:36:42 <gilbertbsd> CAlifornia I s'pose?
14:36:49 <rob_ert> futhin: What?
14:36:53 <rob_ert> futhin: I wasn't sarcastic
14:37:01 <rob_ert> futhin: That's the best time on the day
14:37:07 <futhin> ok
14:37:08 <rob_ert> futhin: I'm here then =)
14:37:12 <futhin> you are here now
14:37:14 <futhin> same time
14:37:23 <rob_ert> Ah, cool
14:37:27 * rob_ert pets futhin
14:37:31 <joa> heh
14:37:39 <rob_ert> Well, now I have to go to bed... :-/
14:37:45 <futhin> ok, good night
14:37:47 <rob_ert> Since CM isn't here anymore, I might as well close my client
14:37:49 <rob_ert> ;)
14:37:50 <rob_ert> Night
14:37:51 <joa> night again rob_ert :)
14:38:32 <joa> davidw: pretty sure it was him
14:38:42 --- topic: set to 'Chuck Moore is coming here on Saturday, 2pm Pacific time (GMT -8), 10 pm GMT' by ChanServ
14:38:55 <joa> thank you chanserv :)
14:38:56 --- topic: set to 'Online Interview: Chuck Moore is coming here on Saturday, 2pm Pacific time (GMT -8), 10 pm GMT' by ChanServ
14:39:03 <gilbertbsd> gmt -8?
14:39:37 * joa wonders... that's AKDT heh
14:39:53 <gilbertbsd> who is ChanServ?
14:40:07 <davidw> joa: why?
14:40:22 <joa> davidw: why am I pretty sure?
14:40:22 <davidw> what
14:40:38 <futhin> gilbertbsd: chanserv is an irc service.  i was using it to set the topci
14:40:41 <futhin> topic*
14:40:57 <gilbertbsd> ah but is it really gmt -8?
14:41:20 <futhin> yes it is
14:41:20 <joa> gmt - 8 is PST and AKDT, I think
14:41:30 <gilbertbsd> ah yes what was i thinking?
14:41:31 <futhin> i checked
14:41:35 <joa> but is daylight savings still in effect?
14:41:42 <gilbertbsd> sure until fall
14:41:53 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.")
14:41:54 <davidw> pacific time is -8 from britain, which is GMT
14:41:58 * joa never remembers when heh
14:42:03 <joa> PST or PDT?
14:42:07 <davidw> or -9 from Italy:-)
14:42:16 <joa> california does daylight savings
14:42:17 <futhin> who cares, that's why i said "Pacific Time"
14:42:29 <futhin> everybody does daylight savings fool
14:42:33 <futhin> :P
14:42:38 <joa> hm
14:42:48 <joa> no, not everyone and why call me a fool?
14:42:55 <futhin> hm
14:42:57 <futhin> i just woke up
14:42:58 <joa> hawaii doesn't do dst
14:43:12 <joa> a few other states don't
14:43:18 <davidw> neither does arizona (I think)
14:43:21 <futhin> well ppl will have to show up an hour early to make sure they don't miss anything :P
14:43:36 <davidw> I don't think arizona believes in desegregation, either, for that matter
14:43:40 <joa> I'll just idle in here heh
14:43:52 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust74.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
14:43:56 <futhin> hey i440r
14:44:02 <futhin> chuck moore was just on
14:44:02 <I440r> almost ready to release 1.05b
14:44:03 <joa> there was a bill in our state house to eliminate dst here
14:44:04 <futhin> chuck moore was just on
14:44:05 <futhin> chuck moore was just on
14:44:05 <futhin> chuck moore was just on
14:44:07 <futhin> :P
14:44:09 <I440r> fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!
14:44:14 <futhin> look at topic
14:44:15 <joa> I440r: heh.  whoops :)
14:44:16 <I440r> please tell me he is gona come back
14:44:20 <futhin> look at topic
14:44:21 <davidw> futhin: don't pee your pants
14:44:22 <gilbertbsd> yes he is.
14:44:28 <futhin> he's coming back 2pm pacific time
14:44:29 <gilbertbsd> but we couldn't squeeze much out of him.
14:44:32 <futhin> on saturday
14:44:33 <joa> PST
14:44:34 <davidw> I440r: well, someone claiming to be chuck moor at least
14:44:37 <gilbertbsd> I think he was in a hurry.
14:44:48 <futhin> davidw:  it _was_ him.   his isp was mindspring
14:45:02 <futhin> which correlates with his email address
14:45:02 <davidw> gilbertbsd: /was in a hurry/has a life and doesn't want to waste his saturday on irc/
14:45:18 <gilbertbsd> but he isn't terribly young.
14:45:33 <gilbertbsd> so he is entitled to retirement!
14:45:57 <futhin> he's supposed to be legally blind too (according to i440r)
14:46:13 <gilbertbsd> I440r:  have you ever met him in person?
14:46:14 <I440r> im told he is
14:46:22 <davidw> too much surfing the internet for porn?
14:46:27 <futhin> uh wtf
14:46:37 <futhin> do people here have to say stupid things? :)
14:46:43 <I440r> anyway that is so cool!
14:46:51 <gilbertbsd> I think it is unfair if it is him to make fun of him.
14:47:00 <gilbertbsd> We are here afterall because he IS g0d.
14:47:06 <futhin> uh
14:47:06 <I440r> who is making fun of him
14:47:12 <gilbertbsd> mr davidw!
14:47:14 <futhin> gilbert: u are saying stupid things..
14:47:18 * davidw is being a bit irreverant
14:47:19 <gilbertbsd> I said sorry.
14:47:30 <futhin> you said stupid things just now
14:47:34 <gilbertbsd> me?
14:47:34 * davidw doesn't quite believe that that was chuck moore
14:47:35 <futhin> yes
14:47:39 <futhin> yes u
14:47:42 <gilbertbsd> when?
14:47:44 <I440r> lol
14:47:44 <davidw> gilbertbsd: you know, when you type at the keyboard
14:47:50 <I440r> no wars in here please
14:47:53 <futhin> <gilbertbsd> We are here afterall because he IS g0d.
14:48:00 <I440r> or ill slap you arround :)
14:48:13 <gilbertbsd> no I meant about the creation of the language.
14:48:19 <gilbertbsd> something is lost in the translation.
14:48:22 <I440r> should i let CLF know ? 
14:48:30 <futhin> i440r: yes you should, scream about it loudly!!!
14:48:39 <I440r> consider it done :)
14:48:41 <futhin> i440r: we must promote this so that every little slug knows about it!!
14:48:50 <futhin> i440r: tell people to check out isforth too ;)
14:48:59 <gilbertbsd> futhin: how about puting it on comp.lang.forth ?
14:49:14 <I440r> they have been doing
14:49:23 <I440r> my web page gets aobut 150 hits a day
14:49:24 <davidw> I bet you could get it slashdotted
14:49:28 <I440r> or more
14:49:31 <davidw> and it would ruin it
14:49:33 <futhin> gilbert:  duh..  CLF = comp.lang.forth
14:49:38 <I440r> heh
14:49:39 <gilbertbsd> ah si
14:49:41 <gilbertbsd> si
14:49:47 <davidw> si` cosa?
14:50:04 <Soap`> Uh, might it be a good idea to talk about it with chuck before you make him a sideshow attraction?
14:50:08 --- nick: gilbertbsd -> gilbertdaft
14:50:38 <futhin> gilbertdaft:  ask all stupid questions now, before chuck moore comes here
14:50:40 <gilbertdaft> I think it is going to be utter chaos: 100 questions for one person.
14:50:41 <futhin> for your information
14:50:56 <davidw> "see the one-language wonder - that's right, ladies and gentlemen!  a man who doesn't believe in modern operating systems in the year 2002!"
14:51:11 <futhin> gilbertbsd:  nobody on this channel has met chuck moore in real life..  i440r hasn't, mrreach hasn't.. etc
14:51:14 <gilbertdaft> well what was the first forth communique that gave tutorials.
14:51:39 <futhin> gilbertbsd:  chuck wrote an essay which is available online, detailing forth, when he first created it
14:52:10 <gilbertdaft> is there info on the <4k gui ?
14:52:24 <futhin> no, not really
14:52:26 <I440r> so whats 2pm pacific time in eastern standard ?
14:52:37 <futhin> i440r:  what time is it now for you
14:52:44 <I440r> 16:44
14:52:50 <futhin> ok, 4pm for you
14:52:55 <gilbertdaft> I440r: 5 pm
14:53:01 <gilbertdaft> I'm on est
14:53:15 <I440r> my laptop sayis its 16:44
14:53:21 <futhin> gilbertdaft: ugh..  it's 2:44 for chuck moore right now.   
14:53:30 <davidw> 14:44
14:53:31 <futhin> 4:44 - 2:44  = 2 hour difference
14:53:33 <gilbertdaft> and it is 5:44 here.
14:53:37 <I440r> ok - its 4:55 here now
14:53:40 <gilbertdaft> I'm in Ohio.
14:53:45 <davidw> there are websites that show this stuff, you know
14:53:50 <I440r> im in indiana
14:53:50 <davidw> gilbertdaft: condolences
14:53:58 <davidw> the home of dan quayle
14:54:01 <gilbertdaft> thanks davidw, glad you understand.
14:54:05 <I440r> lol
14:54:14 <I440r> so what time is he going to be here MY TIME
14:54:18 <futhin> i440r:  it is 14:54 for chuck moore right now, use that time to figure out when you need to appear (2pm)
14:54:23 <futhin> er (4pm)
14:55:02 <futhin> davidw: who is dan quayle
14:55:58 <davidw> futhin: are you from the united states?
14:56:53 <gilbertdaft> futhin:  did Mr. Brodie ever write back to you?
14:57:41 <davidw> I440r: 4pm EST is not 2pm PST
14:57:51 <davidw> there are 4 time zones in the continental US
14:57:58 <futhin> gilbertbsd: nope
14:57:59 <I440r> rite
14:58:02 <I440r> so er
14:58:02 <davidw> pacific, mountain, central and eastern
14:58:07 <gilbertdaft> I440r: what state are you in?
14:58:07 <I440r> what time is eastern
14:58:11 <I440r> indiana
14:58:19 <futhin> 4pm1!!!!!!!
14:58:19 <gilbertdaft> hmmm then you are 1 hr behind me.
14:58:20 <futhin> fuck
14:58:21 <futhin> i said 4 pm
14:58:24 <futhin> heh
14:58:40 <davidw> 2pm pacific is 3 mountain, 4 central and 5 eastern
14:58:42 <I440r> nope
14:58:42 <gilbertdaft> indiana is right across the border ... and the hour changes somewhere close to illinois
14:58:58 <I440r> actuyally its YOU GUYS that change
14:59:00 <I440r> WE dont
14:59:06 <gilbertdaft> we guys?
14:59:10 <gilbertdaft> as in Ohioans or davidw?
14:59:13 <gilbertdaft> et al.
14:59:25 <I440r> everywhere else in the us basicaly
14:59:32 <gilbertdaft> ah oui.
14:59:33 <davidw> maybe indiana is one of those throwbacks to the dark ages where they think daylight time is a comunist plot
14:59:35 <I440r> indiana does not use daylight savings
14:59:43 <futhin> uh
14:59:46 <I440r> it IS
14:59:51 <I440r> heh
14:59:54 <futhin> california uses daylight savings
14:59:57 <I440r> damned commies get everywhere
15:00:03 <davidw> futhin: most of the civilized world does
15:00:04 <I440r> indiana DOESNT use it
15:00:15 <davidw> the chinese don't even use time zones
15:00:26 <gilbertdaft> davidw:  Saudi Arabia is civilized, and  I don't see DST
15:00:28 <futhin> i440r: then you probably need to come here at 3pm i guess..
15:00:45 <I440r> ok
15:00:45 <futhin> i440r:   2pm + 2 hours - 1 hour for daylight savings  ?
15:00:51 <davidw> gilbertdaft: I don't consider saudi arabia to be very civilized
15:01:03 <futhin> i440r:  but who cares, you are going to be here 1 hour early and rabidly stuck to your computer!! :)
15:01:04 <gilbertdaft> oh? and what is civilized? Bologna?
15:01:05 <I440r> if im here between 3 and 5 i shouldnt miss him
15:01:06 <gilbertdaft> Roma?
15:01:07 <davidw> this is a country where women are not permitted to drive automobiles
15:01:15 <gilbertdaft> so freaking what?
15:01:21 <I440r> brb - im preping isforth for new release
15:01:33 <gilbertdaft> there are fewer women involved in automobile accidents. how about that?
15:01:46 <davidw> when the crown prince went to visit bush, they requested that no women air traffic controllers handle his plane
15:01:53 <futhin> lol
15:01:56 <davidw> what a sexist pile of shit
15:01:57 <futhin> that's pretty gay
15:02:08 <gilbertdaft> davidw:  you are anti Saudi just by your utterances.
15:02:09 <gilbertdaft> :|
15:02:20 <futhin> uh?
15:02:31 --- nick: gilbertdaft -> gilbert
15:02:46 <futhin> who cares
15:02:48 <futhin> who cares
15:02:54 <davidw> gilbertdaft: I believe in things like seperation of church and state, equal protection under the law, and so on
15:03:15 <gilbert> sure those are YOUR beliefs. The crown prince believes otherwise.
15:03:22 <gilbert> Why should he accept YOUR beliefs?
15:03:27 <gilbert> Thems are fighting words man.
15:03:49 <davidw> he doesn't have to, but I don't have to consider his country civilized
15:04:01 <gilbert> he doesn't consider yours very civilzed either.
15:04:06 <gilbert> but who cares anyway?
15:04:34 <futhin> good point
15:04:47 <Fare> futhin: when's cmoore coming?
15:04:56 <gilbert> hehe..
15:04:57 <futhin> fare: saturday, 2pm pacific time
15:05:07 <futhin> fare: 2pm GMT -8
15:05:09 <gilbert> 10pm GMT
15:05:26 <gilbert> first ever Saturday AD 2002 MAY 
15:05:31 <I440r> :)
15:05:56 <davidw> I wonder what moore votes for 
15:06:11 <gilbert> a little respek R E S P E K
15:06:13 <futhin> vote for what ?
15:06:27 <davidw> futhin: politically
15:06:43 <futhin> who cares
15:06:50 <futhin> maybe he votes for larouche ? :P
15:07:13 <gilbert> davidw:  by your reasoning, no one can really be him who comes in here. What then does it matter?
15:07:22 <futhin> does anybody know about the existence of larouche?  the presidential candidate for the 2004 elections!?!?!
15:07:33 <davidw> gilbert: I don't think it's impossible, I just..hrm, it seems pretty improbable
15:07:36 <gilbert> Larouche?
15:07:45 <davidw> lyndon larouche, isn't it?
15:07:52 <davidw> I think he's one of those right-wing whackjobs
15:08:03 <gilbert> davidw:  why so improbable? there is a probability it is him.
15:08:19 <gilbert> sure he didn't answer any questions directly, but he was pressed for time.
15:08:22 <davidw> gilbert: I think it's more probable that someone did something like
15:08:28 --- nick: davidw -> mrchuck
15:08:31 <futhin> he's a democrat i think
15:08:35 <futhin> eh
15:08:36 <mrchuck> hrmph... 
15:08:41 <futhin> i refering to lyndon larouche
15:08:44 <mrchuck> damn unix
15:09:00 <futhin> mrchuck: you ahve to remember, you are legally blind, and you aren't too interested in talking to a bunch of forth newbies
15:09:01 <gilbert> so mrchuck, what was the first ever communique to teach forth to other people than Beth Rather?
15:09:11 <futhin> gilbert: none!
15:09:20 <futhin> gilbert: leo brodie learned from chuck moore
15:09:22 <mrchuck> don't remember...been a long time
15:09:24 <futhin> and then wrote the frigging books
15:09:29 <gilbert> hahahahaha
15:09:35 <gilbert> right mrchuck 
15:09:42 <gilbert> I thought you would say so.
15:10:03 <mrchuck> memory fades with age.
15:10:08 <I440r> isforth 1.05b now released
15:10:18 <gilbert> indeed.
15:10:34 <mrchuck> good work
15:10:44 <I440r> davidw i forget things alot too heh
15:11:05 <mrchuck> ate chinese.  thirsty
15:11:23 <gilbert> I think forth is pretty remarkable given that there was hardly anything that preceded it 
15:11:25 <I440r> er i cant even remember what i ate last heh
15:11:48 <gilbert> I am anorexic, I don't eat.
15:11:59 <I440r> every now and again god puts someone on this earth that is so far in advance of everyone else that its scary
15:12:06 <I440r> i truely think chuck moore is one of those people
15:12:22 <gilbert> forth needs a killer app.
15:12:32 <mrchuck> wife min prefers eskimo food
15:12:52 <gilbert> c had Unix...
15:12:53 <futhin> gilbert: that's why i'm focusing on the OS
15:13:06 --- nick: mrchuck -> davidw
15:13:40 <gilbert> futhin:  is forthos gonna have forth as its scripting language as well?
15:13:50 <davidw> eskimo recipe: kill ugruk.  cut flipper from ugruk.  salt flipper.  put flipper in ground for two weeks.  eat ugruk flipper
15:13:59 <futhin> the language will be at every level of the forth os, even the scripting level
15:15:09 <davidw> I think forth is a pretty brilliant idea, but people get carried away...
15:15:44 <gilbert> futhin:  one thing though ... anything c can do forth can do right?
15:15:52 <gilbert> with little or no loss in speed?
15:16:12 <futhin> sure
15:16:48 <gilbert> so everthing that has ever been written in c can be written in forth?
15:16:51 <futhin> forth has a number of advantages over c.  the main weakness is that forth isn't supported very well
15:16:58 <gilbert> eg drivers, the tcp/ip stack, gui, etc?
15:17:22 <futhin> but with a forthos, forth would be extended to deal with all the different stuff, like drivers, internet, gui, etc
15:17:22 <gilbert> well I'm sure if there was a center to rally around ... people would rally around that center.
15:17:30 <futhin> and therefore forth would be extended
15:17:32 <Fare> gilbert: you should get interested in lisp machines, too
15:17:33 <futhin> inside the forthos
15:17:49 <gilbert> Fare:  I am currently plodding through SICP :) 
15:17:58 <gilbert> by the time I'm done, I might be able to understand some lisp.
15:18:04 <Fare> problem of forth: too low-level. This makes a multi-user system especially tricky
15:18:26 <gilbert> why? if C <= Forth, then it shouldn't be a problem should it?
15:18:28 <futhin> exactly, i'm saying it needs & can be extended to a higher level
15:18:53 <gilbert> I think I know of the ultimate forthos challenge : 
15:19:24 <davidw> Fare: exactly
15:19:53 <davidw> Fare: have you heard of 'arc' ?
15:19:59 <gilbert> futhin: can forthos be made to work on tuxscreen? http://www.tuxscreen.net/
15:20:07 <gilbert> its original OS is inferno.
15:20:23 <gilbert> davidw:  is arc Paul Graham's lisp?
15:20:28 <davidw> gilbert: exactly
15:20:35 <davidw> that dude is pretty bright himself
15:20:47 <gilbert> yeah and his book is online. Unlike Mr. Brodies :(
15:20:52 <gilbert> that was just by the way.
15:20:55 <davidw> he made a lot of money, as well
15:21:10 <gilbert> yep on stores.yahoo
15:21:22 <gilbert> I hear orbitz has a lot of lisp code too.
15:21:32 <davidw> new Onion! woohoo!
15:22:03 <gilbert> futhin:  you there?
15:23:22 <futhin> hm?
15:23:39 --- part: Fare left #forth
15:23:51 <gilbert> forthos ... I'm interested in what its all about.
15:24:12 <gilbert> what are the most difficult aspects of it all?
15:24:19 <davidw> what is the point of a forth operating system
15:24:20 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
15:25:14 <gilbert> hi herkamire
15:25:27 <gilbert> davidw:  what is the point of a computer?
15:25:30 <futhin> davidw:  1) we need a decent os.  2) forth is an ideal lang imo 3) forthos would be a great killer application for forth
15:25:42 <gilbert> I busted out my abacus the other day ... it still needs no batteries.
15:26:54 <gilbert> futhin:  what machines will the forth os work mostly on?
15:27:34 <futhin> it'll be portable
15:27:45 <futhin> i want to promote the hardware industry
15:27:53 <futhin> let better architectures come to the forefront
15:28:04 <gilbert> is there a small cheap machine it can be implemented on?
15:28:33 <futhin> gilbert: it could be implemented on a pc, it could be implemented on a forth chip, it could be implemented on your old mac, 
15:28:38 <futhin> we'll see though
15:28:41 <futhin> there might be some constraints
15:28:48 <futhin> in the interest of efficiency
15:29:09 <gilbert> so is it gonna be written in asm?
15:29:25 <futhin> there's two parts
15:29:28 <futhin> there's a forth kernel
15:29:32 <futhin> and then there's the rest of the forth os
15:29:36 <futhin> which runs ontop of the kernel
15:29:43 <futhin> the rest of the forth os will be in forth
15:29:47 <futhin> the kernel will be in asm
15:29:55 <futhin> the kernel will be about 5k to 10k
15:29:58 <gilbert> but will that then not limit it automagically?
15:30:08 <futhin> no
15:30:08 <gilbert> or will it be like rebol?
15:30:16 <futhin> drivers will be handled separately..
15:31:21 <futhin> gilbert: i need to design it
15:31:25 <futhin> with the help of others
15:31:32 <futhin> but design is very important
15:31:37 <gilbert> yes indeed.
15:31:41 <davidw> what's wrong with existing OS's?
15:31:41 <futhin> design is going to be the hardest part
15:31:43 <futhin> in fact
15:32:01 <gilbert> davidw: I bet you say the same of linux and freebsd.
15:32:15 <gilbert> futhin:  but there are lots of designs outthere already!
15:32:30 <gilbert> what about a redoing of minix in forth? is that at all possible?
15:32:43 <davidw> experimentation is good, but the important thing is to keep it clear in your head that you are experimenting
15:33:06 <gilbert> davidw:  sure even Bill G thinks that and acts that way ;)
15:33:11 <futhin> gilbert:  i want to implement some modern os concepts
15:33:22 <futhin> i want a desktop os
15:33:26 <futhin> that the majority use
15:33:29 <davidw> I mean, who cares what it's written in.  what matters is what the user gets, and how easy it is to develop for it
15:33:35 <futhin> sure
15:33:40 <futhin> davidw:  i
15:33:44 <futhin> i'm not a forther per se
15:33:47 <futhin> i'm an os dev
15:33:48 --- join: kez (kez@manifestation.org) joined #forth
15:34:00 <futhin> i came along, and saw that forth was the ideal lang for my needs
15:34:02 <futhin> hi kez
15:34:07 <I440r> argh my 1.05b tgz link is b0rked 
15:34:09 <I440r> hi kez
15:34:09 <kez> hello
15:34:18 <davidw> futhin: why?
15:34:19 <I440r> brb fixing new release :P
15:34:20 <futhin> kez:  how did you find out about this chan? :)
15:34:51 <gilbert> I simply typed #forth myself :)
15:34:52 <kez> i was referred by chiknlaff when I asked about forth
15:35:10 <futhin> davidw: because of its flexibility, its power, and its potential.   also, i've been exposed to MUF, which was _extremely_ easy to learn and start coding in
15:35:22 <kez> looking, sadly as it is, to create an IRC bot in something other than perl, how would forth be for that?
15:35:26 <gilbert> futhin:  whats muf? url?
15:35:33 <futhin> davidw:  MUF is kind of script-like, so i see a future for forth being a script-like language ..
15:35:42 <futhin> kez:  gforth is a forth bot ;)
15:35:49 <futhin> gforth:  4 2 + .
15:35:53 <gforth> futhin: 6 
15:36:02 <kez> awe man
15:36:03 <kez> :(
15:36:11 <kez> who wrote him?
15:36:20 <I440r> isforth new release is fixed
15:36:22 <gilbert> gforth : favorite 10 0 do .( kez ) loop ; favorite
15:36:23 <I440r> kez im writing linux sockets code for my isforth
15:36:38 <gilbert> i think i broke it again.
15:36:39 <I440r> and i have an irc bot that ive had connected here thats written ENTIRELY in forth
15:36:39 <futhin> kez: onetom..  but all he did was use TCL to interface gforth to irc
15:36:44 <I440r> ill release it soon enough
15:37:05 <I440r> do you code forth kez ?
15:37:12 <kez> nope
15:37:17 <I440r> well - learn :)
15:37:23 <kez> wanting to see how it'd suit my needs
15:37:26 * gilbert wants to hear how.
15:37:33 <gilbert> kez ask him how.
15:37:37 <futhin> kez: is chiknlaff a forth coder ?
15:37:53 <I440r> kez if it doesnt..... im working on it :)
15:38:16 <kez> futhin: not that I know of.
15:39:18 <kez> is there a central forth site?
15:39:26 <kez> where i could read up on it?
15:39:38 <futhin> kez: unfortunately, forth doesn't have a whole lot of support for it :(
15:39:40 * davidw is a tcl fan
15:39:42 <futhin> but i'm working on that
15:39:43 <futhin> hopefully
15:40:05 <kez> okay =)
15:40:09 <futhin> kez: there are a bunch of forth sites, with forth material all over the place..  no nice central site
15:40:13 <kez> looked at bigForth
15:40:14 <futhin> as far as i know
15:40:25 <futhin> kez: i recommend you use tcpclient
15:40:34 <futhin> to interface your forth program to irc
15:40:44 <futhin> that way you don't have to worry about sockets
15:40:47 <futhin> unless you want to
15:40:57 <futhin> (or code the socket stuff later)
15:41:27 <kez> i dont suppose it's as easy as perl's sockets eh?
15:41:52 <futhin> with tcpclient, it uses stdout and stdin
15:41:54 <gilbert> hey futhin I have an idea ... there are OS's on floppies that have networking ...
15:41:56 <futhin> keeps it easy
15:41:59 <gilbert> eg picoBSD ...
15:42:03 <I440r> anyone checked out isforths latest release ?
15:42:10 <futhin> kez: tcpclient is at http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html
15:42:17 <I440r> its kind of a non event compared to chuck being in here heh
15:42:19 <gilbert> how hard would it be to write babyForthBSD with networking etc?
15:42:31 <futhin> i440r: damn straight
15:42:38 <I440r> get it anyway :P
15:42:43 <futhin> i440r: why is it 1.05 now?  sockets fixed?
15:42:50 <I440r> no
15:42:54 <I440r> it has vocabularies
15:43:29 <gilbert> I440r:  what is isforth written in?
15:43:53 <I440r> the kernel is written in asm/forth (using macros to create : defs)
15:44:03 <I440r> then it extends itself with pure forth sources
15:44:25 <gilbert> hmmm
15:44:32 <gilbert> will it work on freebsd/
15:44:33 <gilbert> ?
15:44:39 <I440r> thats what i need to test now
15:44:44 <I440r> are you running fbsd ?
15:44:52 <gilbert> FreeBSD  4.5-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.5-RELEASE #0: Sun Feb 17 10:07:09 GMT 2002     root@ijahman.levi:/usr/src/sys/compile/ABBEYLINCOLN  i386
15:44:57 <I440r> i THINK ive fixed the fbsd build but i cant test it
15:45:03 <I440r> isforth.clss.net
15:45:08 <I440r> download i.05b
15:45:11 <I440r> you cant miss it
15:45:21 <I440r> extract it. - you need nasm 98e
15:45:23 <I440r> or better
15:45:26 <I440r> do
15:45:27 <I440r> make linux
15:45:29 <I440r> ./kernel
15:45:36 <I440r> if it says 'ok' its fixed heh
15:45:40 <I440r> fload isforth.f
15:45:42 <I440r> that extends
15:45:54 <I440r> and fsaves out isforth
15:46:02 <I440r> the extend is an automatic BYE
15:46:23 <I440r> im afk for a while - message me if it worked - i need to know
15:46:39 --- join: chiknlaff (localhost@c-24-118-184-252.mn.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
15:46:47 <futhin> hi chiknlaff :)
15:46:52 <chiknlaff> hi...
15:47:09 <chiknlaff> doing embedded lua development...
15:47:18 <futhin> ah interesting
15:47:24 <chiknlaff> how does forth compare in speed and ease of embedding/use
15:47:31 <futhin> there's a forther coding a forth in lua
15:48:09 <chiknlaff> i think i saw that
15:48:17 <chiknlaff> and a lisp in lua as well iirc
15:48:19 <futhin> edrx is his nickname
15:48:31 <gilbert> I need to install nasm
15:48:33 <futhin> his site is at http://angg.twu.net/
15:48:35 <gilbert> hold on lemme see.
15:48:44 <chiknlaff> what makes forth unique/interesting
15:48:59 <chiknlaff> the syntax turns people away immediately
15:49:02 <futhin> chiknlaff: generally, if you ask any forther, we'd say that forth is the best lang for embedded development ;)
15:49:12 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  there is no syntax for forth
15:49:22 <futhin> chiknlaff: true, there's a bit of a learning curve, and the syntax can look down right alien if you aren't familiar with it
15:49:26 <chiknlaff> my embedded development is only so end-users can SCRIPT...
15:49:31 <chiknlaff> Is Forth still the best?
15:49:44 <chiknlaff> I would say no because of the syntax
15:50:06 <chiknlaff> gilbert: What's that supposed to mean?
15:50:28 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  according to the forth gods, forth simply reads  from left to right
15:50:38 <gilbert> if it encounters a word, it looks it up in the dictionary and executes it
15:50:43 <futhin> yeah a lot of forthers would say there's no syntax :)
15:50:48 <gilbert> if it encounters a number, it puts it on the stack.
15:51:05 <gilbert> it uses a LIFO model.
15:51:13 <chiknlaff> that's syntax...
15:51:14 <chiknlaff> :p
15:51:35 <chiknlaff> lua is just a stack and tables (associative arrays)
15:51:43 <gilbert> lua?
15:51:57 <chiknlaff> a language i use for embedding scripting capabilities
15:51:58 <chiknlaff> lua.org
15:52:25 <chiknlaff> function f(n)
15:52:25 <chiknlaff>   return n+1
15:52:25 <chiknlaff> end
15:52:25 <chiknlaff> val = 1
15:52:25 <chiknlaff> for x = 1, 1000000 do
15:52:26 <chiknlaff>   val = f(val)
15:52:28 <chiknlaff> end
15:52:38 <chiknlaff> What might that look like in forth, and how fast would it execute?
15:53:05 <futhin> uh
15:53:09 <futhin> i'm not familiar with lua
15:53:15 <futhin> can you type that up in a different lang? :P
15:53:24 <chiknlaff> sure...
15:53:27 <futhin> or just describe
15:53:28 <herkamire> kez: for making a bot you can use tcpclient to do the networking for you, then you can use just about any language to write your bot (asuming it does io to the terminal)
15:53:29 <futhin> what it does
15:53:35 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  I am a newbie but it might look a bit like this:
15:54:03 <chiknlaff> > elastiC :p
15:54:04 <chiknlaff> function f(number) { return number+1; }
15:54:04 <chiknlaff> local i;
15:54:04 <chiknlaff> i=0;
15:54:04 <chiknlaff> while(f(i) < 1000000) {}
15:54:05 <gilbert> : f 10000 1 do something or other loop ;
15:54:13 <kez> herkamire: okay, i'll look into that
15:54:18 <kez> thanks
15:54:19 <chiknlaff> > python :p
15:54:19 <chiknlaff> def f(i):
15:54:19 <chiknlaff>   return i+1
15:54:19 <chiknlaff> i = 0
15:54:19 <chiknlaff> while i < 1000000:
15:54:19 <chiknlaff>   i = f(i)
15:54:21 <chiknlaff> print i
15:54:28 <herkamire> kez: if you're on a unix variant, I've got some nice sh and C code that handles the IRC protocol, and runs the program you specify for each request somebody sends to the bot.
15:54:42 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
15:54:44 <gilbert> oh okay
15:55:00 <gilbert> : f 10000 1 do 1+  loop ;
15:55:05 <gilbert> it is meant to look better
15:55:06 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit)
15:55:08 <chiknlaff> and you all think that line gilbert types is more intuitive than the standard procedural language syntax?
15:55:14 <gilbert> heck we can ask gforth
15:55:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
15:55:31 <herkamire> I made the sif bot in here. it runs forth code you tell it. (/msg sif works too)
15:55:41 <gilbert> yes and sif
15:55:48 <gilbert> does my stuff look right herkamire?
15:56:33 <herkamire> gilbert: it's silly, but it would compile/run
15:56:34 <chiknlaff> kez: you like forth?
15:56:44 <kez> herkamire: great, think you could send the code for me to gander at? RFC isnt a strong point of mine
15:56:57 <kez> chiknlaff: no idea, i came here from your reference!
15:57:05 <chiknlaff> I know... :p
15:57:13 <chiknlaff> But I am just wondering if you are bedazzled...
15:57:20 <chiknlaff> I never saw you join #lua :p
15:57:39 <herkamire> kez: the bot sources are at: http://qualdan.com/jason/sif-bot.tar.gz
15:57:40 <kez> i didnt see you in there
15:57:43 <chiknlaff> I myself am befuddled :p
15:57:48 <chiknlaff> kez: I left when I didnt see you hahaha
15:58:00 <kez> =p
15:58:20 <kez> took me a while, thought id read through at least the basic overview before pestering people, or you
15:58:57 <kez> but yes, befuddled would cover it
15:59:03 <kez> it's not quite html and sql
15:59:04 <chiknlaff> hehe
15:59:25 <chiknlaff>     repeat
15:59:25 <chiknlaff>     drop drop drop drop 1 u.r cr ;
15:59:50 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  that looks very forthy
16:00:11 <futhin> chiknlaff:  : function  1000000 1 do 1+ loop . ;   (  . prints the number on the stack..  i assume you are printing the number after you've done the loop  ?? )
16:00:13 <chiknlaff> even if i did 'get it', i would not think it is best to user for end-user scripting
16:00:28 <chiknlaff> futhin: basically wanna see how many seconds that loop takes to run
16:00:45 <chiknlaff> printing is sometimes good to verify the correct number 1000000 or 1000001, dont matter :p
16:01:11 <chiknlaff> run the code, tell me how many seconds it takes and your cpu speed
16:02:02 <kez> chiknlaff: can you think of any reason or config files that might be different in redhat to debian which might get an ISA soundcard working?
16:02:28 <chiknlaff> kez: I just recompile the kernel specifically for my card and read the kernel docs...
16:02:33 <chiknlaff> For all my hardware
16:02:38 <chiknlaff> Maybe try to ask #debian
16:02:48 <chiknlaff> And get one of their big fat ugly kernels like redhat has
16:02:54 <kez> i find that too crowsed now!
16:02:54 <chiknlaff> Until you figure out how to do it yourself
16:02:57 <kez> er
16:03:03 <chiknlaff> crowded
16:03:10 <chiknlaff> i can process possibilities, unlike most irc people
16:03:12 <kez> that's the one
16:03:15 <chiknlaff> :p
16:03:18 <I440r> did it work ?
16:03:34 <futhin> chiknlaff:  i440r is your guy to ask about embedded stuff
16:03:38 <chiknlaff> did everyone running that forth loop hang their computers or something?
16:03:44 <futhin> i440r has done lots of embedded coding in asm & forth
16:03:54 <I440r> i am but im sorta busy rite now in the other building
16:03:57 <chiknlaff> uhhh what?
16:03:59 <chiknlaff> asm & forth?
16:04:01 <I440r> im only back here to find out if isforth worked on fbsd
16:04:07 <I440r> asm forth or c 
16:04:12 <I440r> embedded control
16:04:20 <I440r> did isforth work in fbsd now ?
16:04:24 <chiknlaff> embedding forth in asm...
16:04:36 * futhin is not here, is not running the forth code loop, etc etc
16:04:39 <futhin> chiknlaff: no
16:04:48 <I440r> isforth is a forth kernel written in asm :)\
16:04:49 <futhin> he used asm in some embedded control applications
16:05:05 <futhin> used forth in some embedded control applications
16:05:05 <futhin> etc
16:05:05 <chiknlaff> neato
16:05:07 <chiknlaff> but... wtf does that have to do with forth?
16:05:13 <gilbert> I440r:  I don't have nasm
16:05:25 <gilbert> so I'm gonna download it tonight and let you know tomorrow 
16:05:28 <gilbert> i have a slow modem :(
16:05:34 <futhin> chiknlaff: you are doing embedded stuff ??
16:05:40 <futhin> you wnated to know if forth is good for embedded stuff
16:05:45 <I440r> doh heh
16:05:49 <I440r> ok :)
16:05:53 <futhin> i440r will tell you "yes, forth is good for embedded stuff!"
16:05:58 <I440r> ill bbl - im doing some gun smithing
16:06:09 <I440r> forth is BEST there is for embedded
16:06:13 <I440r> even better than pure asm
16:06:15 <I440r> brb
16:06:21 <I440r> ill idle here - afk
16:06:24 <I440r> in other building
16:07:04 <chiknlaff> i do embedded development in lua
16:08:14 <kez> chiknlaff: Rexx, tried that one?
16:08:30 <chiknlaff> i stay away from langs with odd syntax like forth
16:08:38 <chiknlaff> iirc rexx was one of those
16:08:43 <kez> :)
16:08:44 <kez> ruby?
16:08:49 <chiknlaff> ya ruby
16:08:50 <gilbert> with odd syntax?
16:08:51 <chiknlaff> and python
16:08:53 <chiknlaff> and lua
16:08:54 <gilbert> I think python is nteat.
16:08:55 <chiknlaff> but lua is fastest
16:09:00 <chiknlaff> so i use lua
16:09:12 <chiknlaff> i have a list with benchmarks and such
16:09:27 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth
16:09:31 <chiknlaff> redistributable size and speed are important
16:09:34 <futhin> forth is very fast, not just because it resembles a high-level assembler, but also because it encourages coming up with tighter solutions
16:09:37 <kez> i dont think my speed requirments are on quite the same plane as yours
16:09:39 <kez> :)
16:09:40 <futhin> forth is very fast, not just because it resembles a high-level assembler, but also because it encourages coming up with tighter solutions
16:09:57 <chiknlaff> futhin: Sounds like something very much NOT for end-users/developers as a scripting language
16:10:04 <chiknlaff> Someone people run that loop and tell me the time
16:10:04 <chiknlaff> :>
16:10:11 <chiknlaff> people=please (somehow)
16:10:26 <chiknlaff> kez: python and ruby
16:10:34 <chiknlaff> kez: lua is probably easier to embed and faster
16:10:35 <futhin> chiknlaff: no, forth is also an excellent scripting language
16:10:44 <chiknlaff> futhin: I dont see how when it is high level asm
16:11:00 <chiknlaff> as you put it
16:11:10 <chiknlaff> and forces tighter solutions
16:11:16 <futhin> chiknlaff: it is used in quite a few places as a scripting language.. there's a bunch of developments (i forget their names)  that use forth as a scripting language.  there's also PostScript and MUF
16:11:17 <chiknlaff> those are bad things for end-user scripting imho
16:11:24 <chiknlaff> YOU used it, that's fine
16:11:26 <chiknlaff> and *I* would too
16:11:30 <futhin> it doesn't "force" you to use tighter solutions
16:11:32 <chiknlaff> But for end-users
16:11:45 <chiknlaff> futhin: Well thats what you said, sorry.
16:12:12 * kez yawns
16:12:15 <chiknlaff> lua is used by many games...
16:12:20 <futhin> chiknlaff: i said "encourage"
16:12:21 <kez> thanks for all the help/advice chiknlaff
16:12:21 <chiknlaff> baldur's gate for example
16:12:27 <kez> i need to sleep now
16:12:27 <chiknlaff> kez: np
16:12:38 <chiknlaff> futhin: oh hehe.
16:12:38 <futhin> some guy was coding forth scripting language for quake 
16:12:46 <futhin> there are some other places
16:12:49 <futhin> where a forth-like language
16:12:50 <futhin> is used for scripting
16:12:55 <futhin> because it is very easy to learn
16:12:55 <futhin> and use
16:12:56 <chiknlaff> but they used their own quake scripting language
16:12:57 <futhin> i liked MUF
16:13:02 <chiknlaff> got a url?
16:13:06 <chiknlaff> is it forth?
16:13:06 <chiknlaff> :p
16:13:16 <chiknlaff> sounds like a mud.
16:13:20 <futhin> MUF is the online programming language of TinyMUCK
16:13:24 <futhin> which is a mud :P
16:13:25 <chiknlaff> in which case, i'll mention pike :>
16:13:39 <chiknlaff> which i like but isnt for embedding
16:14:03 <chiknlaff> lua and pike are the most used scripting languages in mud like games
16:14:19 <chiknlaff> pike comes from LPC
16:16:04 <futhin> i have a project to code a forth MUD
16:16:15 <futhin> http://forthmud.sf.net/    no code! :D
16:16:20 <futhin> i'm a lazy coder
16:16:27 <chiknlaff> haha
16:16:37 <futhin> but i'll try to be getting into the habit of coding for an hour every day
16:16:42 <futhin> gonna build a routine
16:16:44 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  so exactly what do you write?
16:17:52 <chiknlaff> things which require end-user scripting by technically proficient people but probably only half of them are programmers
16:18:02 <chiknlaff> lua seems to fit nicely
16:18:16 <gilbert> you like python too don't you?
16:18:21 <chiknlaff> yes
16:18:27 <chiknlaff> but python has some things that make it unsuited
16:18:39 <gilbert> why because it is slow or what?
16:18:41 <chiknlaff> i also like ferite/elastiC
16:18:45 <chiknlaff> it is not too slow
16:19:08 <chiknlaff> but its case sensitivity and slightly more odd and slightly more complicated syntax are not desirable in this scenario
16:19:17 <chiknlaff> s/case/whitespace
16:19:28 <gilbert> ah yes that.
16:19:55 <chiknlaff> i personally like it.
16:22:08 <gilbert> so how hard/easy is lua?
16:22:13 <gilbert> and does it work on freebsd?
16:22:35 <futhin> chiknlaff: i think forth is an excellent scripting language, an excellent embedded language..  it might seem like a "write-only" language to you,  as it did to me when i first started learning it.   that's because some of the language looks very cryptic
16:22:55 <futhin> like >r ! r> @ is does> etc
16:23:00 <futhin> they look kind of cryptic
16:23:03 <chiknlaff> gilbert: its easy and works on freebsd
16:23:15 <chiknlaff> everything i use works in windows and linux
16:23:22 <gilbert> as easy as python?
16:23:22 <chiknlaff> and usually much much more
16:23:26 <chiknlaff> gilbert: easier
16:23:28 <chiknlaff> and faster
16:23:34 <chiknlaff> not as featureful
16:23:35 <gilbert> you are kidding!
16:23:53 <chiknlaff> for this purpose it is well suited
16:23:59 <chiknlaff> for embedding python is too much imo
16:24:09 <chiknlaff> especially for end-developers
16:24:16 <chiknlaff> i love python and java...
16:24:19 <chiknlaff> and many more
16:24:25 <gilbert> hold on chiknlaff, i'm gonna check out lua ...
16:24:26 <chiknlaff> but i dont do much with them
16:24:26 <gilbert> one sec
16:24:28 <gilbert> I hate java
16:24:30 * chiknlaff holds on
16:24:48 <futhin> chiknlaff: some of the advantages of forth for embedded applications  1)  compact code  2) interactive 3) easy to get a high-level of abstraction
16:25:03 <chiknlaff> embedded always means interactive...
16:25:04 <chiknlaff> :p
16:25:12 <chiknlaff> compact code...
16:25:16 <chiknlaff> sounds like a bad thing
16:25:17 <gilbert> what is the thingamabob?
16:25:43 <futhin> chiknlaff: no, it means the code doesn't take up too much space
16:25:52 <chiknlaff> the source?
16:25:55 <chiknlaff> or the bytecode?
16:26:30 <futhin> the source
16:26:43 <gilbert> man am I supposed to guess where lua can be downloaded at or what?
16:26:45 <chiknlaff> gilbert: i'd probably embed elastiC or ferite before python... elasticworld.org & ferite.org
16:26:49 <chiknlaff> ferite is too slow atm
16:26:53 <chiknlaff> but that should change
16:26:56 <chiknlaff> lua.org
16:27:02 <chiknlaff> apt-get lua ?
16:27:03 <chiknlaff> :p
16:27:08 <chiknlaff> google.com
16:27:09 <chiknlaff> :p
16:27:29 <chiknlaff> nowadays though you might get a lot of hits for lua lua of newcastle
16:27:31 <chiknlaff> sucks
16:27:47 <gilbert> I use freebsd
16:27:47 <futhin> yeah well think about the problem forth has
16:27:58 <futhin> forth gets all sorts of insane hits
16:28:12 <chiknlaff> yeah
16:28:17 <chiknlaff> one question
16:28:30 <chiknlaff> do you know of any forth implementations that use .fs file extension?
16:28:33 <futhin> i think google should be programmed to detect the difference between a verb and a noun  and let ppl search for "forth: the noun"
16:29:01 <futhin> chiknlaff: .f and .fs are common extensions
16:29:11 <chiknlaff> dang...
16:29:19 <chiknlaff> i wanted to use .fs For Something
16:29:30 <chiknlaff> where is .fs seen most often?
16:29:34 <futhin> .fs = forth source
16:29:39 <chiknlaff> well duh thats why i asked :p
16:29:52 <chiknlaff> i was plannin on using .fs as an extension a while ago
16:29:54 <chiknlaff> for something...
16:29:54 <chiknlaff> :p
16:30:06 <futhin> i dunno, .fs is generally up to the coder. .  i suppose gforth uses .fs
16:31:06 <gilbert> so is lua interpreted or compiled?
16:31:35 <chiknlaff> both
16:31:37 <chiknlaff> like many languages
16:31:46 <chiknlaff> compiled :p
16:31:52 <chiknlaff> interpreted...
16:32:15 <chiknlaff> source compiled to bytecode which is executed in the virtual machine
16:32:39 <chiknlaff> source interpreted to bytecode which is executed in the virtual machine
16:32:47 <chiknlaff> like java/python/ruby/elastic
16:32:53 <gilbert> bah.
16:32:58 <gilbert> yava
16:32:59 <chiknlaff> scripting languages that do not do that will be slow
16:33:01 <gilbert> eeeveel
16:33:10 <chiknlaff> i'd love to find a TINY java or something
16:33:11 <chiknlaff> :>
16:33:23 <chiknlaff> lua is fast and memory efficient
16:33:27 <chiknlaff> as well as simple
16:33:46 <gilbert> you are describing forth as is written in the brochure.
16:33:51 <chiknlaff> java is faster than any of them, but not very memory efficient and requires a huge runtime
16:33:53 <gilbert> and you say it is easier than python?
16:33:57 <chiknlaff> my lua runtime is 50k
16:34:07 <gilbert> I don't care about speed
16:34:09 <chiknlaff> you can make that 25k if you only wish to execute precompiled bytecode
16:34:19 <chiknlaff> lua is easier to embed than python
16:34:39 <chiknlaff> gilbert: yes but forth is asm-like not c-like
16:34:58 <chiknlaff> at first glance forth looks like a mad cross between asm and cobol
16:35:05 * chiknlaff shrugs
16:36:15 <chiknlaff> If you dont care about speed and memory use, python/ruby/elastiC/ferite
16:36:24 <chiknlaff> none are as easy to embed
16:36:24 <gilbert> I don't like c at all
16:36:33 <gilbert> and I don't think c-likeness is a good thing.
16:36:33 <chiknlaff> neat.
16:36:44 <chiknlaff> i dont care what *I* like or *YOU* like.
16:36:53 <chiknlaff> for my purposes the languages needs to be what THEY like
16:36:54 <chiknlaff> :>
16:36:57 <futhin> forth runtime is 5k foo :P
16:37:00 <gilbert> who are they?
16:37:03 <chiknlaff> futhin: cool.
16:37:15 <chiknlaff> gilbert: end-users end-developers... scroll up and re-read three times
16:37:41 <chiknlaff> futhin: python is like 500k, so that's a bad think, 50k is good, 5k is better... but as long as it's under 100
16:37:48 <chiknlaff> futhin: how many lines of code?
16:37:57 <chiknlaff> lua is about 5000
16:38:20 <chiknlaff> show me a site that explains some forth crap
16:38:25 <gilbert> what is the first thing to do in lua?
16:38:34 <chiknlaff> another thing thats bad about it is the seemingly confusing different number of forths
16:38:42 <chiknlaff> gilbert: rtfm
16:38:54 <chiknlaff> i dont understand that question
16:39:11 <gilbert> how do you add 2 numbers?
16:39:15 <chiknlaff> gilbert: step off the scripting language train and join me at the embedded language diner
16:39:24 <chiknlaff> x+y
16:39:37 <gilbert>  2 + 1
16:39:37 <gilbert> error: <statement> expected;
16:39:37 <gilbert>   last token read: `2' at line 1 in string "2 + 1"
16:39:37 <gilbert> > 
16:40:04 <chiknlaff> x=2+1
16:40:52 <chiknlaff> what, does forth allow you to do mathmatical expressions that go nowhere?
16:40:55 <gilbert> how is this easier than 2+1 in python and 2 1 + in forth?
16:41:01 <chiknlaff> Hahahah!
16:41:06 <chiknlaff> ok, im done with you gilbert
16:41:11 <chiknlaff> It's quite obviously NOT easier.
16:41:19 <chiknlaff> Adding two numbers...
16:41:20 <chiknlaff> come on.
16:41:21 <gilbert> this is the most basic basic basic thing.
16:41:42 <gilbert> perhaps I have to read the docs to figure that out.
16:41:46 <chiknlaff> well first of all, people know math
16:41:54 <gilbert> yes.. 
16:41:58 <gilbert> and then?
16:42:05 <chiknlaff> so simple math statements are more generally understandable than 2 1 +
16:42:10 <chiknlaff> but anyway
16:42:26 <chiknlaff> comparing how differen languages add two numbers is too narrow
16:43:33 <gilbert> btw lisp does (+ 2 1) 
16:43:38 <gilbert> and no one has complained yet.
16:43:44 <chiknlaff> i know
16:43:51 <chiknlaff> and that is also cryptic
16:44:01 <chiknlaff> not widely used
16:44:03 <chiknlaff> people havent complained
16:44:09 <chiknlaff> they just dont use it for this purpose
16:44:10 <chiknlaff> :)
16:44:32 <gilbert> it is easy to get used to it ... people who don't use a language because it is post or pre fixed for some operations ...
16:44:35 <futhin> chiknlaff:  just think of it how you did math in elementary school   you wrote 5 down, and then underneath, 2, and then + or * or - or whatever
16:44:40 <gilbert> well <badword> them
16:44:41 <chiknlaff> the scope of my evaluation is outside of mathmatical expressions.
16:44:49 <chiknlaff> futhin: I dont need help understanding it...
16:44:56 <futhin> chiknlaff: just because forth is a little weird, don't let that stop you
16:44:58 <chiknlaff> I really dont care about syntax too much
16:45:02 <chiknlaff> end-users do.
16:45:09 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  all i want is a small 2, 3 line demo of lua
16:45:13 <gilbert> from you 
16:45:13 <futhin> i have the hp48g calculator, which uses a stack
16:45:26 <chiknlaff> gilbert: http://dada.perl.it/shootout/
16:45:29 <futhin> and i found it really easy to use
16:45:36 <gilbert> bah
16:45:37 <chiknlaff> gilbert: easy means easy to EMBED.
16:45:44 <gilbert> oh thats what you meant!
16:45:49 <futhin> embed in what?
16:45:54 <chiknlaff> It's also easier foe end-users to program in.
16:46:04 <chiknlaff> futhin: software.
16:46:04 <gilbert> i am an end user aren't i?
16:46:12 <chiknlaff> gilbert: no...
16:46:25 <chiknlaff> you are a guy on irc in a forth channel very unlikely to end up using one of our products
16:46:37 <futhin> what is your product?
16:46:40 <chiknlaff> and if you did you would be the minority in that crowd
16:46:45 <chiknlaff> futhin: private.
16:46:48 <futhin> k
16:46:53 <chiknlaff> things which require end-user scripting by technically proficient people but probably only half of them are programmers
16:47:29 <chiknlaff> gilbert: as I said before... step off the scripting language train and join me at the embedded language diner
16:47:40 <futhin> hm?
16:47:50 <gilbert> chiknlaff:  what does that mean?
16:47:52 <chiknlaff> i'm starting to think forth programmers actually NEED things repeated...
16:47:53 <gilbert> I am already in lua
16:47:54 <futhin> you are happy with forth as a scripting language, now you are concerned about the embedded language aspect ??
16:48:12 <chiknlaff> no, i am just trying to tell gilbert that he is missing my points...
16:48:17 <chiknlaff> i am talking about embedding
16:48:21 <futhin> i'm sorry i'm not really here
16:48:22 <futhin> if i was
16:48:27 <chiknlaff> embedded languages ease of embedding
16:48:27 <futhin> i would've taken control of the conversation ;)
16:48:28 <chiknlaff> embedding
16:48:32 <tathi> chiknlaff: so if you're not interested in using forth, why are you here?
16:48:44 <chiknlaff> embed embed embed 1 u.r cr ;
16:49:04 <chiknlaff> tathi: because I am having a conversation with people in the channel.
16:49:08 <chiknlaff> I joined interested...
16:49:30 <tathi> cool
16:49:31 <chiknlaff> I then processed if I should stay interested.
16:49:36 <tathi> just was curious
16:49:38 <chiknlaff> Slowly processed that perhaps not.
16:49:59 <chiknlaff> And am now simply tying up loose ends on questions and information i've spread
16:49:59 <futhin> ok
16:50:00 <gilbert> hmmm lua smacks of pascal.
16:50:04 <futhin> shut up everybody else
16:50:20 <futhin> i want to talk to chiknlaff for a bit without too much noise :P
16:50:22 <chiknlaff> gilbert: that's what you read, but what parts make you think that.
16:50:25 <chiknlaff> i am curious...
16:50:34 <futhin> chiknlaff:  let's start all over
16:50:34 <gilbert> you gave me a link. ..
16:50:40 <gilbert> and I looked through what there was.
16:50:45 <chiknlaff> yes i got that far
16:50:48 <chiknlaff> which specific elements
16:50:52 <davidw> lua is small, light and very fast
16:50:52 <chiknlaff> make you think of pascal
16:51:08 <chiknlaff> ya
16:51:12 <chiknlaff> and easy to embed
16:51:17 <chiknlaff> easier than python
16:51:17 <gilbert> function Ack(M, N)
16:51:17 <gilbert>     if (M == 0) then
16:51:17 <gilbert>     return( N + 1 )
16:51:17 <gilbert>     end
16:51:17 <davidw> yep
16:51:20 <chiknlaff> embed embed embed 1 u.r cr ;
16:51:28 <gilbert> n e way I have to be quite now.. futhin wants to talk to you.
16:51:38 <futhin> i'll pm him
16:51:47 <chiknlaff> gilbert: the lines of code in that function that resemble C outnumber those that resemble pascal
16:51:56 <chiknlaff> 'function'
16:52:01 <chiknlaff> nothing too wrong with that
16:52:02 <chiknlaff> and e;'
16:52:08 <chiknlaff> 'end', also used in other languages
16:52:16 <chiknlaff> what would you prefer, out of curiousity?
16:52:22 <chiknlaff> instead of the word function and the word end?
16:52:30 <chiknlaff> also, remember pascal was designed for teaching
16:52:31 <gilbert> def ack(m,n):
16:52:46 <gilbert> nah, it was designed to torture Wirths students.
16:52:48 <chiknlaff> so if it does resemble pascal, that may be a good think for non-programmers
16:52:51 <chiknlaff> def is retarded
16:52:53 <chiknlaff> ruby/python
16:52:55 <futhin> hello
16:52:59 <davidw> python is slower than lua
16:53:03 <gilbert> so?
16:53:05 <chiknlaff> davidw: yes.
16:53:06 <davidw> IIRC, lua isn't that full-featured, though
16:53:07 <futhin> hello chiknlaff, please come to the private message discussion
16:53:12 <chiknlaff> davidw: correct.
16:53:15 <chiknlaff> I've said all this.
16:53:24 --- part: gilbert left #forth
16:54:07 <davidw> I think forth comes into its own when you want really, really small, relatively low level stuff
16:54:16 <chiknlaff> thats what i think too
16:54:22 <chiknlaff> davidw is smartz0r
16:55:06 --- quit: kez (Remote closed the connection)
16:55:56 <chiknlaff> someone should run the forth loop i explained above
16:56:10 <chiknlaff> loop 1 million times calling a function which increments a number
16:56:13 <chiknlaff> then print that number
16:56:20 <tathi> that might be kind of pointless...different forths vary pretty wildly in how fast they are
16:56:21 <chiknlaff> tell me how long it takes to execute and your cpu speed
16:56:22 <futhin> and count the number of seconds?
16:56:27 <chiknlaff> i am curious about forth's speed
16:56:35 <chiknlaff> futhin: use a watch/clock or the time command
16:57:23 <chiknlaff> eg. time python test.py
16:57:24 <chiknlaff> :p
16:57:25 <davidw> chiknlaff: that's a crappy test... go look here:
16:57:29 <davidw> err
16:57:32 <davidw> the shootout page
16:57:34 <chiknlaff> davidw: it is a crappy test
16:57:36 <davidw> you must have heard of it
16:57:40 <futhin> davidw: the shootout page sucks
16:57:43 <chiknlaff> davidw: yes been there done that
16:57:49 <davidw> futhin: how so?
16:57:50 <chiknlaff> it is a crappy test
16:57:55 <chiknlaff> but run it anyway and let me know
16:58:11 <futhin> davidw: shoutout page kind of has bad forth code,  and besides, we now have isforth, which should be a very fast forth :P
16:58:32 <davidw> futhin: but completely useless to those of us not on i386 machines
16:58:43 <futhin> it'll be ported eventually
16:58:45 <futhin> you could help
16:58:49 <davidw> futhin: pity you didn't notice the bad code earlier - he accepted improvements
16:59:03 <chiknlaff> what is isforth?
16:59:21 * davidw wrote the fastest 'reverse a file' implementation on that site;-)
16:59:23 <futhin> davidw: : function  1000000 1 do 1+ loop . ;  ??
16:59:25 <davidw> i.e.: tac
16:59:38 <davidw> well, I didn't write tac, actually
16:59:44 <davidw> I suggested using it:-)
17:00:35 <davidw> futhin: he said that the loop should call a function
17:00:42 <chiknlaff> forth is slower than lua on the shootout
17:00:48 <chiknlaff> so i'd like to just see this one test
17:00:51 <futhin> chiknlaff:  isforth is a forth for linux coded in asm
17:01:00 <onetom> hi all
17:01:08 <davidw> chiknlaff: ?! in a lot of cases, forth beats lua by a lot
17:01:09 <futhin> chiknlaff: the other forths on the shootout page aren't coded in asm afaik
17:01:16 <onetom> chiknlaff: i will run that test 4 u
17:01:32 <chiknlaff> the loop should call a function which increments x
17:01:38 <chiknlaff> the loop should run 1 million times
17:01:42 <chiknlaff> after the loop
17:01:44 <chiknlaff> print the x
17:01:52 <futhin> onetom
17:01:56 <futhin> yeah
17:01:56 <chiknlaff> to verify it is 1000000 or 1000001, i dont care about off by one errors :p
17:02:37 <onetom> gforth: : test 0 1000000 1 do 1+ loop . ; utime test utime d- d.
17:02:41 <gforth> onetom: 999999 -121174 
17:03:16 <futhin> gforth: : test 0 1000000 0 do 1+ loop ; utime test utime d- d.
17:03:18 <chiknlaff> why is this test so hard to write?
17:03:20 <gforth> futhin: 3274669523474284 
17:03:21 <chiknlaff> :>
17:03:33 <futhin> wtf
17:03:55 <chiknlaff> this reminds me of bill gates demo'ing win98 into a crash
17:04:01 <futhin> chiknlaff:  i don't have linux installed on my computer, and at the moment, my linux account doesn't have it installed :P
17:05:23 <onetom> gforth: variable i : afunction 1 i +! ; : test 0 1000000 0 do afunction loop i @ . ; 0 i ! utime test utime 2swap d- d. ." mircroseconds"
17:05:27 <gforth> onetom: redefined i  1000000 1020297901020692 mircroseconds
17:05:45 <futhin> ok, convert that to seconds :P
17:05:47 <davidw> in most of these tests, gforth blows lua away
17:05:58 <davidw> : mmm 1000000 0 do 1+ I . cr loop ; 0 mmm
17:06:01 <davidw> is the test
17:06:12 <davidw> I don't know about forth's timing facilities
17:06:29 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
17:06:35 <futhin> hi mrreach
17:06:40 <MrReach> hihi
17:06:40 <davidw> I should get some sleep
17:06:58 <MrReach> did I miss him?
17:07:11 <MrReach> ack! bad time!
17:07:28 <futhin> bad time? :(
17:07:29 <MrReach> I'm expecting to be out at the lake with my wife and god-daughter
17:07:34 <chiknlaff> use time forth script.fs
17:07:36 <futhin> ouch
17:07:41 <chiknlaff> youc an put it in a text file right :p
17:07:46 <futhin> yes you can
17:07:53 <chiknlaff> well do that and use
17:07:56 <chiknlaff> time script.fs
17:08:00 <chiknlaff> or just count the seconds
17:08:04 <chiknlaff> should be only a few seconds
17:08:11 <chiknlaff> tell your cpu speed with all times :p
17:08:23 <chiknlaff> cheap hack and will investigate further if times are close enough to care about
17:08:35 <MrReach> where in /proc do you find the user time of the current process??
17:08:42 <MrReach> I've always wondered that
17:09:30 <onetom> gforth: variable aVar : afunction 1 aVar +! ; : test 1000000 0 do aFunction loop aVar @ . ; 0 aVar ! utime test utime 2swap d- 1000 / d. ." miliseconds"
17:09:34 <gforth> onetom: 1000000 1493197 miliseconds
17:09:50 <MrReach> heh
17:09:53 <MrReach> not quite
17:10:01 <onetom> hmmm... probably that means 1.49secs...
17:11:19 <MrReach> that's odd formating for d.
17:11:26 <MrReach> gforth: 1 0 d.
17:11:31 <gforth> MrReach: 1 
17:11:32 <chiknlaff> that many ms is more like 1493 seconds :p
17:11:40 <MrReach> 1 1 d.
17:11:46 <MrReach> gforth: 1 1 d.
17:11:51 <gforth> MrReach: 4294967297 
17:11:53 <onetom> chiknlaff: why do u wanna include forth startup time?
17:11:57 <futhin> chiknlaff:  it took less than 1493 seconds to appear
17:12:03 <MrReach> why did it print the double number?
17:12:06 <chiknlaff> you dont have to include forth startup time
17:12:12 <chiknlaff> but it shouldnt matter anyway
17:12:13 <futhin> chiknlaff: it took less than 14 seoncds to appear
17:12:18 <chiknlaff> futhin: I know :>
17:12:21 <MrReach> WAY less
17:12:23 --- join: msalmon (~ms@dsl081-242-012.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #forth
17:12:27 <futhin> therefore, 1.493 seconds or less
17:12:28 <MrReach> I wonder if it did the loop at all
17:12:30 <chiknlaff> bad programmers
17:12:30 <chiknlaff> :p
17:12:34 <chiknlaff> yes you can assume 1.49
17:12:42 <chiknlaff> it is a good assumption
17:12:44 <chiknlaff> but may not be correct
17:12:53 <chiknlaff> it may just be luck/coincidence
17:12:54 <futhin> fine, it's .1493 seconds
17:12:57 <chiknlaff> haha
17:12:59 <chiknlaff> ummm
17:13:04 <MrReach> onetom: is gforth like the other bot that kills any process that runs for more than 1 second?
17:13:05 <futhin> what kind of speed were you looking for?
17:13:07 <chiknlaff> <gforth> futhin: 3274669523474284 
17:13:13 <chiknlaff> maybe it's an error.
17:13:15 <futhin> hi msalmon
17:13:15 <chiknlaff> :>
17:13:21 <chiknlaff> so figure out why its saying that odd number
17:13:25 <onetom> MrReach: oh, shit u r right :))
17:13:29 <davidw> bye
17:13:34 <MrReach> be well, davidw
17:13:38 <onetom> MrReach: tho, i dont know why does it answer anyway?
17:13:51 <MrReach> maybe it's dumping the stack for you
17:13:54 <chiknlaff> gforth: variable aVar : afunction 1 aVar +! ; : test 1000000 0 do aFunction loop aVar @ . ; 0 aVar ! utime test utime 2swap d- 1000 / d. ." miliseconds"
17:13:58 <gforth> chiknlaff: 1000000 1481740 miliseconds
17:14:00 <futhin> onetom: did you set up gforth to kill any process that runs for more than a second ??
17:14:05 <MrReach> gforth: 1 2 100000 ms
17:14:09 <gforth> MrReach: Terminated.
17:14:16 <futhin> it seems to be dependant on whatever else is running..
17:14:20 <onetom> MrReach: and i also made a "sleep 3 ; kill $! 2>/dev/null >/dev/null" into it...
17:14:20 <MrReach> nope, that's not the right answer
17:14:37 <chiknlaff> so can someone test this in real life or is forth only accesible via IRC ?
17:14:38 <chiknlaff> :p
17:14:39 <tathi> : function 1 begin 1 + dup 1000000 = until . ; function
17:14:43 <chiknlaff> why is it so hard?
17:14:46 <onetom> gforth: 2000 ms 1 .
17:14:48 <futhin> chiknlaff: lol
17:14:51 <gforth> onetom: 1 
17:14:57 <MrReach> gforth is a popular multiplatform forth
17:14:57 <tathi> is giving me real 0.037 s, user 0.040 s
17:15:01 <futhin> chiknlaff: the forth bots are new additions :)
17:15:06 <tathi> on my colorforth
17:15:08 <chiknlaff> futhin: hehe
17:15:13 <MrReach> gforth, the client, is a shell script hack
17:15:14 <chiknlaff> tathi: what CPU?
17:15:25 <tathi> G4 500MHz, sorry
17:15:26 <chiknlaff> MrReach: It was a joke.
17:15:30 <gforth> tathi: in file included from *the terminal*:-1
17:15:30 <gforth> tathi: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word
17:15:30 <gforth> tathi: 500MHz, sorry
17:15:30 <gforth> tathi: ^^^^^^^
17:15:30 <gforth> tathi: Backtrace:
17:15:32 <gforth> tathi: $4011D188 throw 
17:15:34 <gforth> tathi: $401271E8 no.extensions 
17:15:38 <chiknlaff> tathi: G4 confuses me too much hehe
17:15:42 <tathi> yeah
17:15:46 <onetom> chiknlaff: IRC is real life!? isnt it? yay </me frightened> :)
17:16:04 <MrReach> for some people, I image
17:16:14 <MrReach> HEY! I440r! wake you ass up!!
17:16:17 <onetom> tathi: i was sure about this problem .... :)))
17:16:46 <tathi> onetom: why did it respond to me?
17:17:08 <MrReach> g4 is a nickname prefix that it responds to, apparently
17:17:09 <onetom> gforth: utime 1000 ms utime 2swap d- d.
17:17:12 <gforth> MrReach: in file included from *the terminal*:-1
17:17:12 <gforth> MrReach: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word
17:17:12 <gforth> MrReach: is a nickname prefix that it responds to, apparently
17:17:12 <gforth> MrReach:    ^
17:17:12 <gforth> MrReach: Backtrace:
17:17:17 <gforth> MrReach: $4011D0BC throw 
17:17:18 <gforth> MrReach: $4011D0D4 (') 
17:17:20 <gforth> MrReach: $4011EC44 ' 
17:17:22 <gforth> onetom: 996468 
17:17:38 <MrReach> haha!
17:17:41 <tathi> apparently :) kind of odd though
17:18:18 <onetom> gforth: variable aVar : afunction 1 aVar +! ; : test 1000000 0 do aFunction loop aVar @ . ; 0 aVar ! utime test utime 2swap d- 1000 / d. ." miliseconds"
17:18:22 <gforth> onetom: 1000000 1495449 miliseconds
17:19:02 <onetom> wadda hell, is that a bug or what?
17:19:10 <onetom> cant understand...
17:19:52 <futhin> onetom
17:19:58 <futhin> stop doing it thru irc.. heh
17:19:58 <onetom> gforth: variable aVar : afunction 1 aVar +! ; : test 1000000 0 do aFunction loop aVar @ . ; 0 aVar ! utime test utime .s 2swap d- 1000 / d. ." miliseconds"
17:20:03 <gforth> onetom: 1000000 <4> -770391087 237556 -768908438 237556 1482649 miliseconds
17:20:07 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
17:20:12 <onetom> futhin: k, sorry
17:20:16 <futhin> onetom:  chiknlaff wants you to put the code in a file
17:20:28 <onetom> futhin: tho, it could b also done through /msg gforth...
17:20:33 <futhin> and call it from the file..
17:20:39 <futhin> and get an accurate time
17:20:44 <onetom> but any1 have any idea about that?
17:21:03 <futhin> there's supposed to be a time command?  or watch command?  (unix commands)
17:21:05 <onetom> futhin: its not accurate coz, it adds gforth startup time :(
17:21:20 <futhin> get the accurate time, the time that is _not_ affected by whatever else you have running
17:21:39 <MrGone> there's several TYPES of time
17:21:54 <MrGone> there's clock time, as one the wall, not a very good measuring tool
17:21:59 <MrGone> but esential for logging
17:22:16 <MrGone> then there's USER time ... the amount of processor clocks consumed
17:22:28 <I440r> back
17:22:30 <I440r> mrreach!
17:22:43 <I440r> i released 1.05b - with vocabs!
17:22:53 <MrGone> that is usually divided into clocks spent in user code, and clocks spent is system code (video writes, disk accesses, etc)
17:22:59 <I440r> wow were getting alot of new ppl in here lol
17:23:01 <MrGone> cool
17:23:13 <I440r> chuck moore comes in for 2 or 3 minutes and the place is crowded
17:23:17 <MrGone> I'm really gone now, partner is off the phone.
17:23:24 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReallyGone
17:23:34 <I440r> i do a new release and everyones lile 'bleh'
17:23:35 <I440r> lol
17:23:41 <I440r> cu l8er dood!
17:23:59 <futhin> i440r: anybody doing anything with the freebsd port?
17:24:13 <I440r> nobody that I know
17:24:16 <futhin> btw, where does the convention to use .1 for all those files come from?
17:24:32 <I440r> i modifed the fbsd include but its untested
17:24:33 <I440r> brb
17:24:35 <I440r> gotta go get something
17:25:22 <onetom> chiknlaff: real    0m0.755s|user    0m0.670s|sys     0m0.020s|
17:25:51 <futhin> onetom: what is your cpu & speed?
17:26:10 <onetom> chiknlaff: bogomips        : 999.42|cpu MHz         : 501.152|cache size      : 128 KB|model name      : Celeron (Mendocino)
17:27:52 <I440r> basck
17:27:59 <onetom> bye, all
17:28:15 <I440r> futhin in dos with a86 i have this convention for source files
17:28:22 <I440r> main sourcefile is called file.a
17:28:36 <I440r> automatically included source files are called file.s
17:28:47 <I440r> files that have to be manually included are called file.i
17:28:49 <tathi> chiknlaff: I'm getting .062 s from isforth on one of our linux dev machines at work, think it's a pentium 400
17:28:55 <I440r> in linux you cant use .i .a or .s
17:29:09 <I440r> and i REFUSE to use crappy bullshit names like
17:29:11 <I440r> file.A
17:29:13 <I440r> file.I
17:29:15 <I440r> file.S
17:29:26 <I440r> uppercase is FUCKED in the head and i will NOT use it
17:29:31 <I440r> so i use .1
17:29:50 <onetom> like one in onetom ;)
17:29:57 <I440r> eventualy all sources are going to be in .f
17:32:27 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:32:53 <I440r> futhin who do you know who can do the fbsd port ?
17:32:56 <I440r> and where is he :P
17:34:33 <futhin> yeah
17:34:45 <I440r> who/where is he :P
17:35:38 <futhin> joseph
17:35:46 <futhin> the ree guy
17:35:49 <futhin> joseph = ree
17:35:54 <I440r> aha
17:36:10 <futhin> he might do it because of goshawk`
17:36:31 <I440r> errr. because of goshawk ?
17:36:37 <futhin> yeah
17:36:40 <futhin> goshawk is a forth coder..
17:36:49 <futhin> and joseph is setting up development machines
17:36:51 <futhin> for his project
17:37:00 <I440r> aha
17:37:21 <futhin> he'll only do it "if goshawk needs me to do it"
17:37:23 <futhin> :P
17:38:05 <I440r> :)
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18:06:52 <herkamire> hey guys
18:06:58 <I440r> hi
18:08:08 <herkamire> anybody ever tried smalltalk or squeak?
18:08:33 <futhin> tried squeak
18:08:41 <futhin> for 30 minutes
18:08:50 <futhin> didn't manage to figure out how to get to the coding part
18:08:55 <futhin> the gui is a little weird
18:09:03 <herkamire> hehe :)
18:09:29 <herkamire> my niether. I'ts been amusing for probably an hour. this irc client is... um interesting
18:09:51 <herkamire> hardly more than a telnet client
18:11:05 <herkamire> I  don't know a stitch of smalltalk, so maybe I should learn that first :)
18:11:49 <futhin> eh? you coded your irc client?
18:12:09 <herkamire> no, I'm playing with squeak. there is an irc client in it
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18:37:18 <I440r> herk airc ?
18:38:11 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection)
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20:04:26 <chiknlaff> squeak is interesting
20:04:27 <chiknlaff> :>
20:05:21 <chiknlaff> what dist of forth is recommended and runs on linux as well as windows?
20:05:28 <joa> the smalltalk interpretter?
20:05:40 <I440r> joa is at the keyboard ?
20:05:44 * I440r faints
20:05:46 <joa> I is :)
20:05:56 <joa> I was earlier when chipChuck was here :)
20:06:03 <I440r> i know - i saw the log :P
20:06:06 <joa> heh
20:06:19 * joa liked that dilbert
20:06:20 <I440r> grr i need someont to test the new bsd build for isforth :(
20:06:30 <joa> ... freebsd?
20:06:33 <I440r> i used to play scot adams adventure games!
20:06:39 <I440r> scot adams ROCKS!!!
20:06:56 <joa> I have access to a freebsd box if that'd help
20:07:29 <I440r> you have access to it NOW ?
20:07:32 <joa> yes
20:07:35 <I440r> does it have nasm installed ?
20:07:38 <joa> yes
20:07:40 <I440r> can it have nasm installed on it ?
20:07:41 <I440r> eep!
20:07:44 <I440r> isforth.clss.net
20:07:48 <joa> and I have root on it!!! w00t!
20:07:49 <joa> heh
20:08:01 <I440r> i think i fixed the nasm build but i cant test it
20:08:16 <joa> is building all you need?
20:08:39 <I440r> it will build. will it RUN tho after
20:08:44 <joa> heh
20:08:56 <joa> well, just tell me what to do to test it :)
20:08:57 <I440r> make freebsd
20:09:03 <I440r> ./kernel.com
20:09:06 <I440r> fload isforth.f
20:09:08 <I440r> ./isforth
20:09:16 <I440r> if all of the above works im satisfied
20:09:23 <I440r> if not ill go cry somewhere heh
20:09:27 <joa> youch
20:09:42 <joa> lagging me so much heh
20:09:47 <I440r> heh
20:09:56 <I440r> btw isforth now supports vocabularies
20:09:58 <joa> it's spamming me with various lines like....
20:10:04 <joa> exec.1:107: unknown preprocessor directive `%xdefine'
20:10:05 <joa> exec.1:107: label or instruction expected at start of line
20:10:14 <joa> in all the files, apparently
20:10:15 <I440r> erm - you have a fucked in the head version of nasm
20:10:19 <joa> heh cool
20:10:22 <joa> hm
20:10:22 <I440r> you need to update it to a saner version
20:10:25 <joa> which version do you have?
20:10:31 <futhin> just get the latest version
20:10:32 <I440r> 98e is a mini8mum
20:10:47 <I440r> ya. latest supports %xdefine
20:11:30 <joa> ya... 0.98 heh
20:11:35 * joa will upgrade it
20:11:56 <I440r> heh
20:12:40 <joa> hm
20:17:58 <joa> ls
20:17:59 <joa> erp
20:18:08 <I440r> lol
20:18:11 <I440r> wrong window ?
20:18:11 <I440r> heh
20:18:20 <joa> sure thing heh
20:18:31 <joa> NASM version 0.98.30 compiled on May  1 2002
20:18:58 <joa> zsh: segmentation fault (core dumped)  ./kernel.com
20:19:25 <joa> #0  0x8048049 in ?? ()
20:19:42 <chiknlaff> anything interesting written in forth?
20:19:42 <chiknlaff> :p
20:20:00 <chiknlaff> anything I might use...
20:20:13 <chiknlaff> anything I might have BOUGHT?
20:20:26 <I440r> argh
20:20:27 * joa blinks
20:20:38 <I440r> hang on let me see what that was
20:21:17 <I440r> erm
20:24:07 <I440r> erm
20:24:11 <I440r> thats not even in code space
20:24:16 <I440r> thats in the elf header 
20:24:27 <I440r> code starts at 0x8048080
20:24:41 <joa> heh
20:24:43 <joa> don't trust gdb ;)
20:24:53 <I440r> edit asmsrc/Makefikle
20:24:55 <I440r> makefile
20:25:12 <I440r> remove the comment on the debug 
20:25:18 <I440r> and comment out the line that calls strip
20:25:27 <I440r> then rebuild the kernel and rerun
20:25:31 <I440r> make freebsd
20:25:39 <I440r> then ./kernel.com
20:25:47 <I440r> that should tell you what function it barfed in 
20:26:04 <joa> #0  0x8048049 in ?? ()
20:26:06 <joa> heh
20:26:15 <I440r> nope. thats outside codespace
20:26:19 <I440r> gdb kernel.com
20:26:22 <I440r> break origin
20:26:23 <I440r> run
20:26:27 <I440r> does it get that far ?
20:26:27 <joa> dang
20:26:36 <joa> just a sec
20:27:04 <joa> Breakpoint 1, 0x804a7ac in origin ()
20:27:15 <joa> I think so, ya heh
20:27:39 <joa> the output of gdb is not easy for me to decipher having never seen it before
20:27:57 <I440r> it made it to origin ?
20:28:06 <joa> I think so
20:28:19 <I440r> after doing break origin did you do run ?
20:28:23 <chiknlaff> so if forth has no syntax...
20:28:23 <joa> heh
20:28:29 <chiknlaff> can you make it look like C code or very close?
20:28:30 <chiknlaff> :p
20:28:36 <joa> to the best of my knowledge, gdb broke at origin
20:28:39 <joa> and ya, I ran it
20:28:43 <I440r> chin if you ould why would you want to ?
20:28:44 <I440r> ok
20:28:46 <I440r> say continue
20:28:51 <joa> did
20:28:52 <joa> died heh
20:28:58 <I440r> grrr this is bad
20:29:00 <joa> same location
20:29:15 <I440r> hrm this makes no sense at all
20:29:30 <joa> do you have ssh 2?
20:29:43 <I440r> yes
20:29:47 <joa> alright
20:29:49 <chiknlaff> I440r: It's a theoretical question
20:29:52 <joa> I'll give you an account for the night :)
20:30:04 <joa> and longer if the actual owner of the box says it's cool
20:30:14 <I440r> chink lol - any self respcting forther would lever do that to forth :P
20:30:19 <chiknlaff> A yes would have told me much, but if you want to explain in depth instead how forth 'has no syntax', that's fine too... I was just trying to save you time
20:30:20 <I440r> er then again 0- they mite :)
20:30:43 <I440r> chink it has syntax. but it doesnt have a SET syntaxd
20:30:46 <I440r> its extensable
20:30:58 <I440r> you can define new words to use what ever syntax you want them to use
20:31:03 <chiknlaff> that's neat
20:31:07 <I440r> joa that would be cool!
20:31:18 <I440r> i could gdb the kernel and see where it barfs :)
20:31:52 <joa> just guessing... login mark okay?
20:31:52 <joa> heh
20:32:00 <I440r> ya 
20:32:02 <joa> or do you have a preferrable one with no numbers?
20:32:03 <joa> k
20:32:22 <I440r> mark is good. my usual is mark4 but mark works :)
20:32:29 <I440r> its a temp account so.... heh
20:32:29 <chiknlaff> I440r: So the real answer is no not really, because it still has forth structure
20:32:38 <chiknlaff> I'll call that structure syntax
20:32:47 <I440r> yes - thats a good way of putting it
20:32:49 <joa> heh, I'll go mark4 then
20:32:53 <joa> haven't made it yet
20:32:54 <chiknlaff> But you can define new keywords, which I suppose are much more than just defining functions in procedural languages...?
20:32:55 <joa> emailing root first
20:33:16 <I440r> k
20:33:28 <I440r> chink lets say you wanted a CLASS of word
20:33:35 <I440r> a constant is a specific class of word
20:33:50 <I440r> if you dont have that class of word - you create a word that knows how to create that class of word
20:33:59 <I440r> : constant create , does> @ ;
20:34:05 <I440r> now your forth has constants
20:34:16 <I440r> this is a contrived over simplified example
20:34:21 <I440r> a better example is the assembler
20:34:29 <I440r> in a forth assembler there is a word called
20:34:30 <I440r> mov
20:34:58 <chiknlaff> assignment?
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> button new Constant foo
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> s" thin foo" foo init
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> page
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> foo draw
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> bold-button new Constant bar
20:35:58 <chiknlaff> s" fat bar" bar init
20:36:00 <chiknlaff> 1 bar y !
20:36:02 <chiknlaff> bar draw
20:36:04 <chiknlaff> that's forth?
20:36:26 <I440r> the word MOV knows how to assemble all the various variations on the mov instruction
20:36:27 <futhin> sure..  looks ugly tho
20:36:30 <I440r> it is and it isnt
20:36:43 <chiknlaff> i'd rather write ASM :p
20:36:48 <futhin> it looks ugly
20:37:02 <futhin> forth doesn't have to look ugly
20:37:12 <futhin> it's not a write-only language
20:37:22 <futhin> only newcomers think that
20:37:31 <futhin> i agree there are some cryptic commands
20:37:40 <futhin> and i think those could be renamed
20:37:54 <futhin> like why have "@" when we can have "get" ?
20:37:57 <I440r> no
20:38:00 <I440r> well
20:38:02 <I440r> yes AND no
20:38:09 <I440r> you shouldnt rename @ and ! etc
20:38:14 <chiknlaff> i have to say im not extremely interested in forth...
20:38:30 <I440r> unknown preporcessor directive lol
20:38:32 <futhin> chiknlaff: don't worry, davidw hates forth, and he still hangs out on here ;)
20:38:32 <chiknlaff> i just have a morbid curiousity of it
20:38:36 <I440r> i think im getting the wrong nasm :)
20:38:59 <futhin> well
20:39:01 <futhin> i'm gonna get off
20:39:06 <chiknlaff> ewww
20:39:11 <chiknlaff> thanks for sharing
20:39:15 <chiknlaff> :p
20:39:21 <chiknlaff> bucka bucka bucka buck!@
20:39:28 <chiknlaff> ^- chiknforth
20:39:38 <joa> later futhin
20:39:42 <futhin> lol
20:39:52 <joa> dang
20:39:54 <futhin> yeah i'm getting off!  oh yeah oh oh
20:39:56 <futhin> hm
20:40:00 <joa> this is worse than poutine heh
20:40:10 <joa> that is conversation about poutine
20:40:10 <futhin> joa: what?
20:40:15 <futhin> heh
20:40:28 <futhin> bye all
20:40:42 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
20:41:16 <joa> heh
20:41:18 <joa> "bye"
20:43:10 <chiknlaff> euphoria should be the name of a forth dist
20:43:14 <chiknlaff> :p
20:43:29 <chiknlaff> later
20:43:35 * chiknlaff gets off with futhin
20:43:36 <joa> later
20:43:38 --- part: chiknlaff left #forth
20:56:06 <joa> night everyone :)
21:07:16 <I440r> well its not working in fbsd lol
21:07:24 <I440r> i fixed one bug but ive no idea how to fix the other
21:10:49 --- quit: herkamire (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:15:12 --- quit: I440r ("nite nite - gotta go code :)")
22:18:49 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:20:28 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
22:21:15 <rob_ert> Hi
22:30:45 <Soap`> 'ello
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.05.01