00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.24 00:07:03 --- join: davidw_ (~davidw@ppp-23-36.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 00:07:39 --- quit: davidw (Remote closed the connection) 00:21:49 --- nick: davidw_ -> davidw 01:35:57 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:37:32 --- quit: njd (Client Quit) 01:44:09 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:44:12 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:44:12 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:44:12 --- quit: futhin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:44:47 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:44:47 --- join: Frac (tng@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:44:47 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:44:47 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52030.vnet.hu) joined #forth 01:44:47 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 01:56:35 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:56:35 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:56:35 --- quit: futhin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:56:35 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 01:56:59 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:56:59 --- join: Frac (tng@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:56:59 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:56:59 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52030.vnet.hu) joined #forth 01:56:59 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 04:11:19 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:20 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:20 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:20 --- quit: futhin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:11:20 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 04:11:20 --- join: Frac (tng@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:11:20 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:11:20 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52030.vnet.hu) joined #forth 04:11:20 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 04:13:02 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:13:16 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 04:13:16 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 04:16:36 --- quit: ChanServ (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:16:57 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 04:16:57 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 05:37:52 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 05:37:58 hihi! 05:38:57 futhin: gforth is either direct threaded or indirect threaded, depending on what system it's being compiled on (or for) ... it is not subroutine threaded 05:39:35 also, gforth has the built-in ability to call upon system libraries 05:39:53 it's not very hard to use, but it takes a while to figure out the arguments and their order 06:00:56 how does it do that? 06:01:03 where is a good definition of all this threading business? 06:01:35 the forth wiki has pretty good defs, they're "ok" 06:01:38 just a sec 06:05:47 the problem is that nobody really write to the wiki 06:06:59 where is it? 06:07:14 the tcl dudes are quite enammored of theirs 06:07:26 ok, the wiki itself is at http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/html/Forth/FrontPage.htm 06:07:32 and the threading stuf ... 06:07:34 is at http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/html/Forth/ThreadedCode.htm 06:07:46 theirs has a *LOT* of content 06:08:02 and it's written in TCL ... so they have some reason for pride 06:10:28 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 06:11:15 good morning! 06:11:36 good morning, futhin 06:11:38 Morning! 06:12:09 these explanations kind of suck 06:12:16 mrreach: do yu have any code that demonstrates using the system libraries thru gforth? 06:12:40 no, I lost all my gforth stuff with a HD failure 06:12:43 i remember you tried to explain gforth & accessing libraries before, should i go read the logs ? 06:13:00 i don't remember you saying anything specific though.. 06:13:07 however, I'm willing to download the sources and browse through them to recall how it worked 06:13:18 if youi wish 06:13:24 i think xef4 has some source code on it 06:13:31 i'll ask him next time i see him 06:13:45 or maybe i'm thinking of aum? one of those ppl.. 06:14:09 oh, cool, gforth 5.0 is out 06:14:15 when did that happen? 06:14:18 it's been out for awhile :) 06:14:35 i installed it 2-3 months ago.. 06:14:45 sep of 2000? 06:14:58 hm? 06:15:01 that's when it came out? 06:15:29 just a sec ... I haveta reboot 06:15:32 blarg 06:15:50 --- quit: MrReach () 06:21:53 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 06:21:57 wb 06:22:05 thanks 06:22:15 * MrReach goes to get the gforth sources 06:22:27 i grepped the forthlogs and piped it into a textfile.. 06:22:29 what platform are you speaking of, futhin? 06:22:36 after a few minutes, the text file was 250 megs 06:22:36 bah 06:22:46 what did you grep for? 06:22:53 gforrth 06:22:54 gforth 06:22:54 heh 06:22:59 haha! 06:23:09 it's weird tho 06:23:16 because the logs aren't that big.. 6 megs only 06:23:26 er, 8 megs only 06:23:37 i guess grep was looping or something 06:25:03 ugh 06:25:05 if u read the logs 06:25:06 sounds like grep found every line ... might want to recheck your pattern 06:25:10 i repeat the same thing over and over again 06:25:18 i keep saying "do you know how to do sockets in gforth" 06:25:21 over and over 06:25:23 day after day 06:25:25 haha! 06:25:28 because i'm a lazy baster 06:25:30 because i'm a lazy bastard 06:25:55 damn, futhin, give yourself a break 06:25:57 it's funny, because i'm not intending to code the mud for awhile.. so i just keep asking :P 06:27:20 i did code some forth recently 06:27:38 worked on code that displayed hex & ascii of a particular memory address 06:27:44 similar to debug.com 06:27:54 and also worked on code to draw a box 06:28:01 using ascii 06:28:10 |----| 06:28:16 | | 06:28:21 |----| 06:28:29 ugly :D 06:28:29 I wish I440r were in here 06:28:35 why? 06:28:46 I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of using gforth to code a bot 06:28:56 he doesn't like gforth 06:29:04 downloaded it, looked at it for 5 minutes, deleted it 06:29:15 * MrReach throws a brick at futhin, "So what?" 06:31:48 heheh 06:32:00 what about bigforth? or isforth? 06:32:07 ok, scanning for library docs now 06:32:33 gforth is portable. 06:32:33 i'll probably use isforth eventually, once he gets the socket stuff working.. 06:32:42 so is bigforth 06:32:45 ok, the "Binding to System Library" section of docs is still empty 06:32:55 bigforth is available on windows too 06:33:01 futhin: what architectures does it run on? 06:33:09 http://onee.yi.org/ 06:33:12 so I'll unpack the sources and use editplus to grep 06:33:25 some great algorithm page links 06:33:34 bigforth is not really stable on windows 06:33:37 i think bigforth might have better support for attaching to system library.. i think it might be documented :P 06:33:38 (but what is) 06:34:11 heh, in German 06:34:19 * Powerful compiler: bigFORTH is a 32 bit system. The compiler generates optimized native code for the i386. 06:34:31 futhin: u can easily implement sockets in gforth, but, plz, install a linux! its quite high time 2 do so. 06:34:33 "portable - runs on 386, 486, and pentium!" 06:34:50 portable across platforms :P 06:34:52 that last bit is mine, but... really 06:34:54 linux & windows 06:35:11 * davidw has a mac 06:35:15 ah 06:35:57 running linux, but still... 06:36:30 futhin: you have a linuxbox yet? 06:36:47 I'm not sure gforth can bind to libs on windows 06:37:06 no, i won't install linux for a few months.. i'm just using shell accounts 06:37:52 s/i won't install/i won't be installing 06:37:55 to quote someone or another "learning to hack on windows is like learning to dance with a body cast" 06:37:57 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@m133.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 06:38:02 hello 06:38:07 goodmorning gilbertbsd 06:38:22 greets, gilbertbsd 06:38:24 I got my hands on 'Starting Forth' at 2am last night. 06:38:25 goodmorning onetom too :P 06:38:36 gilbertbsd: cool.. 2 am? 06:38:36 mornin, futhin 06:38:41 davidw!!! HAHAHA! 06:38:42 yep I had to wait. 06:39:20 I have a quick question... after I am done with the book... 06:39:21 gilbertbsd: umean, u have a real SF book? 06:39:28 Yes :) 06:39:52 how do I gain access to the tcp/ip stack? 06:39:59 :)) 06:40:02 and is there anyway to use curses? 06:40:07 what a common question. 06:40:13 sure 06:40:16 use emit :P 06:40:33 whadya mean? 06:40:39 heh, gilbertbsd, we're working on that right now 06:40:57 we are focused on gforth, at the moment, do you have it installed? 06:40:57 certainly u also need ioctl syscall interface 4 curses 2 06:41:11 yep that is what I have up 06:41:14 futhin: please open "lib.fs" in your favorite editor 06:41:15 gilbertbsd: there is tcpclient & tcpserver that use stdout and stdin, so u can use emit & key with tcpclient to connect to a server, or to run your own server, you could use tcpserver 06:41:37 but, for gods sake, check the sources of bigforth, gilbertbsd & u 2 futhin 06:41:38 speaking of which, I should figure out what is up with eCos... 06:41:45 it always seems to echo keys 06:41:50 anyway... yeah, off to hack 06:42:00 I *USED* to know how to load and call arbitrary libraries ... but have to relearn for futhin's sake 06:42:21 have fun, davidw 06:42:25 futhin where is tcpclient? 06:42:31 heh 06:42:35 is it available for gforth ? 06:42:38 google for it 06:42:45 tcpclient is not specific to forth 06:42:45 :| 06:42:50 ah okay 06:42:52 gilbertbsd: f gforth ?! 06:43:00 yeah I have tile and pfe as well. 06:43:08 but I am using g4th 06:43:16 mrreach: you don't have to relearn it :P i can ask somebody else 06:43:28 you've been asking for months 06:43:38 nobody seems willing to spend the hour to figure it out 06:43:42 futhin: what about askin urself? ;P 06:43:45 heh 06:44:33 mrreach: one guy has some source code that handles it for him.. i was going to get the source off him 06:44:37 also.. 06:44:50 i should check out bigforth & isforth for sockets stuff 06:45:08 but i have lib.fs open right now :P 06:46:43 ok, it appears that to tell the system about a new library, you do ... library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 06:47:04 this creates a defining word, glibc: 06:47:26 it is used to tell the system about the proceedures to be found within the library 06:47:40 that doesn't look like forth. 06:47:53 beg parden? 06:47:58 which doesn't ??? 06:48:26 glibc 06:48:44 library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 <-- look at the spaces! it's prolly forth ;) 06:49:05 no library word here... 06:49:06 ah I didn't notice the 'library' part. 06:49:12 I'm detailing how gforth interfaces to arbitrary libraries, in linux in theis case 06:49:20 doh 06:49:22 ah yes. 06:49:38 you could probably use the ABI somehow 06:49:40 forth itself has no method of doing this 06:49:45 although doing stuff like structs could get ugly 06:49:56 although most specific implementations usually have some method 06:50:07 ABI?? 06:50:08 ohh!! i found out why grep made it a 250 meg file.. it started reading into the file that i was piping into 06:51:35 heh 06:52:02 ok, so lets pretend we're going to call a glibc function that takes three arguments and returns an int ... 06:52:04 So to be sure ... when I am done reading Starting Forth, I can boldly crawl towards where other forthers have gone before me? 06:52:24 crawling rules 06:52:33 after that, u get to take babysteps! and fall down many times 06:52:49 so much fun when u are a cute little toddler 06:52:54 sure sure, I am just checking to see if there are other books I should have around me. 06:53:08 3 (int) glibc: ourword nameOfProceedureInLibrary 06:53:33 gilbertbsd: not much books on forth, and not much books specific to some forth compiler, unless you read the electronic manuals that come with the forth compilers 06:53:36 gilbertbsd: yes 06:54:09 ah okay ... I have gforth. 06:54:13 gilbertbsd: thinking forth was kind of a good book.. 06:54:14 the Forth Handbook included with the SwiftForth downloand is pretty good 06:54:29 and may recommend Thinking Forth 06:54:32 the Forth Handbook? ... okay 06:54:45 Yes I shall get thinking forth (Zeus willing) this afternoon. 06:54:57 starting forth is a bit of an easy read, I'm a bit worried. 06:55:07 gilbertbsd: do you have a scanner? ;) 06:55:13 it'll get you started 06:55:14 no. why? 06:55:24 Forth is not a very complex language 06:55:31 we need to scan starting forth & thinking forth for onetom ;) 06:55:50 ah. I wrote to Mr. Brodie ... 06:55:58 did you get a response? 06:55:58 I told him to put his book on the net. 06:56:00 i haven't.. 06:56:01 nope. 06:56:48 * MrReach looks through the GNU libc manuals looking for a simple function to test with. 06:58:09 MrReach: chdir 06:58:12 or something like that 06:58:20 maybe somebody should send documentation to the gforth guy for the "Binding to System Library" section 06:58:27 I'm think putch 06:59:04 gilbertbsd: so you bought Starting Forth or you borrowed it? 06:59:24 inter library loan 06:59:33 ah 06:59:57 putc is a macro 07:00:26 fputc looks good 07:01:33 so ... library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 2 (int) glibc: fputc fputc 07:02:14 now, the problem with that ... is that fputc is going to have some stuff added to the name in the library, unless I'm mistaken 07:03:02 DAMNIT! Mandrake didn't install gforth 07:03:14 someone got a login I can borrow? 07:03:31 that has gforth installed? 07:08:01 needs lib.fs 07:08:01 library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 2 (int) glibc: fputc fputc 07:08:12 i've put that into a file.. 07:08:13 what next? :P 07:08:31 needs lib.fs library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 2 (int) glibc: fputc fputc 07:08:51 ? already did that :P 07:09:10 non existant file lib.fs 07:09:23 did you get that error? 07:09:31 nope 07:09:46 hm.. does he have gforth installed? 07:09:55 try: locate lib.fs 07:10:01 did you cd somewhere before starting gforth? 07:10:15 well, "gforth" works 07:10:47 /home/common/dbc-20011017/sw/forth/gforth-0.5.0/lib.fs 07:10:53 needs /home/common/dbc-20011017/sw/forth/gforth-0.5.0/lib.fs 07:11:12 er.. needs /usr/local/share/gforth/0.5.0/lib.fs 07:11:46 alright, the first one worked 07:12:31 where *IS* that machine? Siberia? 07:13:18 it is prolly a 33.6k 07:13:26 its a pain telnetting to those 07:13:33 I should know too :) 07:13:41 ok, I got the name of the proc wrong 07:13:52 so I need to fish around in the lib file for a minute 07:14:54 no 07:14:58 it's located in hungary 07:15:05 HAHA! 07:15:21 it's a cable connection i imagine 07:16:01 futhin did you scan the book? 07:16:35 needs lib.fs library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 1 (int) glibc: myout putchar 07:16:41 what are you doing with a shell account in hungary? 07:17:27 futhin: *khm* ... ;) 07:17:51 THERE IT IS! 07:18:10 65 myout A ok 07:18:48 so, futhin, that is how you access libraries in gforth on linux 07:19:05 and I have no idea if you can do that on windows are not 07:19:51 cool, works here too 07:21:28 if you look in lib.fs, you've also got variable args, like you need to call fprintf 07:22:03 futhin: as a further excersize, use this to go create a gtk interface for forth 07:22:18 I'm not going to worry about that right now, though, because I don't intend to use gforth anytime soon 07:22:26 HAHAHA! 07:22:44 davidw: you're the sadistic type, aren't you 07:22:47 davidw: oh trust me, i've got at least 20 different apps that i want to code in forth 07:23:25 MrReach: me also thanks u 4 that lib-stuff 07:23:25 MrReach what do you use instead? 07:23:37 TCL/Tk 07:23:48 are you kidding? 07:23:53 is it anything like forth? 07:23:57 65 myout ok 07:24:07 I generally don't do windowing stuff in forth 07:24:19 ugh weird 07:24:22 if i do it in a file 07:24:26 it doesn't work? 07:24:29 and there is no forth/tk yet is there? 07:24:31 but if i do it while in gforth 07:24:38 if i do 07:24:42 needs lib.fs library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 1 (int) glibc: myout putchar 07:24:45 in gforth 07:24:47 rather than in a file 07:24:50 it works.. 07:24:53 it's a byte-compiled scripting language with outstanding widget support ... it's incredibly easy to get an app sketched out 07:25:20 * onetom agrees MrReach 07:25:28 gilbertbsd: not that I'm aware of 07:26:40 gilbertbsd: ive seem some pforth<->tcltk bindings on pforths links page 07:27:18 onetom: I used to have a login at one of the mainframes in Novosibersk (sp?) ... t had a lag similar to your machine 07:28:20 mrreach: myout doesn't work correctly if i do the " needs lib.fs library glibc: /lib/libc.so.6 1 (int) glibc: myout putchar" from a file.. why ? 07:28:35 not sure 07:28:39 what error you get? 07:28:52 I can't find pforth tcl/tk 07:29:09 MrReach then you really want python :) 07:29:20 it does everything you said in a more convenient language. 07:29:29 ug 07:29:57 I can't say that python is better or not, more versatile or not 07:30:10 it is quite the language ... 07:30:16 but can say that TCL is convenient and good for what I'm doing 07:30:23 which would be? 07:30:29 Not top secret I hope. 07:30:48 also, a program written in TCL/Tk operates identically on Linux, Windows, and MacOS 07:30:52 no 07:30:59 same with python. 07:31:04 and its pretty easy too. 07:31:23 several projects ... one is the integration of the web server and my household tasks 07:31:44 another is a commercial IRC bot 07:31:46 household tasks? like cooking? 07:32:02 man all those are right up pythons alley. 07:32:10 another is the handling of my data/fax/voice modems 07:32:10 but as long as tcl/tk can do them ... 07:32:33 tasks like contact management/databasing 07:32:34 hmmm so you can write a fax app via tcl/tk ? 07:32:41 yes 07:32:52 voicemail is the more important function to me 07:32:57 does it give you hardware access? 07:33:42 eventually, I'll be able to check my voicemail either by calling in, checking the web page, having it forward to my mailbox, or by having it call my cell phone 07:34:07 my modems are all external, Rockwell/Conextent based 07:34:38 I have an external modem too... a 33.6k somethingorother from USR 07:34:50 and TCL lets me access the serial ports fairly easily 07:35:27 MrReach: 1 question 07:35:38 sure 07:35:59 MrReach: how can i detect that if some*1* picks up the phone 07:36:02 on the other side 07:36:06 after dialing? 07:36:13 right now, I'm trying to figure out how to decode the vender specific format of the sound stream ... so I can convert it to .mp3 format 07:36:18 coz, ATDT 07:36:34 arg ... toughie 07:36:40 wanna try 2 make a connection 07:36:57 generally, yoiu need a modem with "ringback" functionality 07:37:06 and it is only able 2 answer NO CARRIER, BUSY or CONNECT 07:37:40 check the docs for your chipset, and see if there's an obscure command to turn on ringback capability 07:37:58 some modems can do it, some can't 07:38:04 what is that ringback cap? 07:38:22 anyway, i havent found the docs 4 it yet :) 07:38:30 each time it hears the buzzing of the ring on the other end, it will report "ringing" 07:38:51 but, it does it 07:39:01 when you get like 3 secs of silence, you know someone has picked up 07:39:18 2 b more exact, it says RING 07:39:30 ahhaa... 07:39:39 oh, as though someone had called you? 07:39:42 how awkward 07:39:54 but it doesnt say anything after an ATD command 07:39:57 but it'll do the trick 07:40:04 nonono 07:40:10 that isn't what I mean at all 07:40:21 *SOME* modems have a special mode 07:40:27 yup... 07:40:41 that allows them to report that it hears the phone ringing at the other end 07:40:47 mrreach under linux you can access the serial port via /dev/somethingorother no? 07:41:02 after the ATDT command, but before the VOICE answer 07:41:24 VOICE answer ? 07:41:29 . /dev/ttyS0 ... /dev/ttyS3 07:41:43 yeah thats not that hard to do in forth is it? 07:42:04 actually, it's very hard to do with forth 07:42:12 i would also b satisified if the ATD command could answer me w VOICE beside NO CARRIER, BUSY & CONNECT 07:42:23 because you have to set the line discipline and buffering characteristics 07:43:13 hmmm is that the only hard thing to do in forth? 07:43:16 however, I found that with gforth, you can use EXEC to call linux utilities to set the serial port characteristics 07:43:24 gilbertbsd: gforth -e '."ATH" bye' > /dev/modem 07:43:38 that doesn't seem hard! 07:43:54 using EXEC you mean? 07:43:56 ( oops ive missed 1 space ) 07:44:28 you also missed the carriage return ... it won't do anything until it gets it 07:45:06 :) well... yes 07:45:24 gilbertbsd: that example is pointless, if you're just going to echo stuff, might as well use bash scripts 07:45:45 yes I saw that. 07:46:09 echo "ATH" bye > /dev/modem 07:46:11 or something 07:46:13 anyway, I need to shave, shower, and go do some worky type stuff 07:46:20 k, the simley is also missing from the end of the sentence 07:46:38 be well, each of you 07:46:42 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 07:46:52 gilbertbsd: hey, "bye" is the quiting word from forth :) 07:47:27 oh that. 07:47:29 ;) 07:47:40 echo "ATH" > /dev/modem 07:47:42 gilbertbsd: but seriously, u can override emit & key 07:48:14 so u can use the standard 4th i/o words 2 07:48:21 communicate w the modem 07:48:28 like . accept .... 07:50:50 but I thought the whole point of forth was to let you gain very quick access to hardware and that kinda thing! 07:55:04 yes & its got a very fast devel time and is a great language 07:55:28 but it needs support.. ppl need to extend it.. code vocabulary for it for graphics, modem handling, whatever 07:59:43 do you know what? if all of us scanned 10 pages each of Starting Forth, we could post it to a server in siberia and access it whenever 08:03:01 me be we shouldn't tell Mr. Brodie about this? 08:16:58 --- join: herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:17:17 hi herkamire 08:17:38 hey :) 08:17:58 have you been having fun with forth? 08:18:28 yes I got a copy of Starting Forth this morning. 08:18:42 and I'm reading through that ... 08:18:49 I also got a copy of SICP so that will be next on my list. 08:19:45 thinking forth comes somewhere in between . 08:19:53 cool :) starting forth looked good. I haven't read it, but tathi was showing me the pictures :) 08:20:04 sounds like it explains things nicely (and simply) 08:20:22 yeah... I asked some guys in the lisp room what book I should read before getting to sicp 08:20:26 and 3 of them said 'starting forth' 08:20:34 :) 08:21:58 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:21:58 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 08:22:22 gilbertbsd: and you have to try my forth bot :) 08:22:34 is that sif? 08:22:46 sif: 3 2 + 08:22:47 . 08:22:47 gilbertbsd: 08:22:51