00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.21 00:00:05 head" is less verbose 00:00:23 i've chosen TCL for my unix work for now 00:00:34 fool! i think we should rename @ as FETCH for increased understandability!!!! 00:00:50 futhin im reporting you to chcuk moore :P 00:00:51 ! as STORE, etc :P 00:00:56 heheh :) 00:01:05 heh, futhin seems to have grown some serious balls since I last talked to him 00:01:13 lol 00:01:24 he's just fakin it 00:01:25 naw ... gotta use GET and SAVE ... like BASIC 00:01:29 he's still a wimp :) 00:01:37 peek and poke ? 00:01:38 lol 00:01:40 haha! 00:01:46 forgot about those! 00:02:06 why do you think people look at forth code and declare that forth is "unreadable, easy to write but hard to read, etc" ? 00:02:11 :) 00:02:17 peek and poke were some VERY advanced basic :) 00:02:28 because they style from one coder to the next is often radically different 00:02:39 they were the gates debugger 00:02:43 futhin because they are too dumb to learn how to THINK forth :) 00:02:49 yeah 00:03:07 they take a look at all the : ! @ r> >r ; and have no clue 00:03:13 they think it looks like noise 00:03:15 and it does 00:03:17 until you understand 00:03:21 what each of those words mean 00:03:42 i think it might be interesting to rename some of the stuff 00:03:44 where I might code straight procedural with a table lookup, onetom might use CREATE ... and I440r might drop into Intel assembler 00:03:49 make it less "noisy" 00:03:57 or maybe not 00:04:22 might - but might not. if asm is appropriate i use asm 00:04:25 yes, forth is based on rather cryptic one-letter words 00:04:32 some of the existing kernel might be recoded high level 00:04:38 i've always had balls, i'm surprised i come across as a non-ballsy type.. ? 00:04:44 >R and R> used to drive me bonkers 00:04:52 but one learns to think FETCH when ones sees @ 00:04:57 > is TO 00:05:02 to r and r to 00:05:05 yeah, we know that :P 00:05:06 very easy heh 00:05:06 yep, I know that now 00:05:20 mrreach if you didnt i would be VERY wurried heh 00:05:26 PUSH and POP were good synonyms for me, but you'd have a cow, I'm sure 00:05:37 i would :)P 00:05:39 indeed :P 00:05:48 where does push pust to 00:05:52 where does it push FROM 00:05:54 you can't do push and pop in forth anyways 00:05:56 exactly 00:05:56 where does pop pop to 00:05:59 where does it pop from 00:05:59 you could do pop actually 00:06:02 pop = drop 00:06:03 bad nomenclature 00:06:07 we've ahd this discussion ... OFF the data stack, wherever that might be 00:06:25 but its not immediatly apparant 00:06:36 where it IS with r> and >r :) 00:06:37 >R and R> are grandfathered, and I'm used to them now ... 00:06:43 heh 00:06:57 frank seargant is trying to kill grandad tho :) 00:06:57 if we were just now inventing the idea, we'd probably find different names 00:07:20 seargent himself couldn't keep track of >R and R> when he wrote pygmy 00:07:28 lol 00:07:32 I'm impressed that you remember it was he who used those 00:07:37 i also dont like is 00:07:38 his 00:07:41 (primative 00:07:44 pygmy is the best forth ;) 00:07:46 and 'x literal 00:07:51 well 00:07:53 ugh 00:08:02 (primative) 00:08:05 'x' literal 00:08:10 are correct 00:08:13 the weird thing is, i've read stuff that say pygmy is a great example of forth, and that it is similar to chuck moore's forth ??!? 00:08:20 pygmy is the ultimate in simplicity, but the immediacy bit was a real pain ... no vocabs to speak of 00:08:23 tcn defined 'x for char literals in isforth hehe 00:08:27 i had to fix that :) 00:08:45 futhin; it was written to be as close to CMForth as humanly possible 00:09:02 CMForth was used in some satellites and shuttle software 00:09:15 CMForth wasn't machine forth right? 00:09:28 I440r: what do you use ... sure not the CHAR and [CHAR] of ANS??? 00:09:34 which forth did industrial light and magic ? 00:09:40 'x' 00:09:45 heh 00:09:49 even worse 00:09:52 and $0d etc 00:09:53 mrreach: if pygmy was similar to cmforth, then what is wrong with pygmy? isn't cmforth a REAL forth? 00:10:01 less verbose 00:10:08 I never said anything was wrong with it 00:10:16 nono hehe 00:10:19 i440r said that pygmy isn't a real forth.. 00:10:22 i believe 00:10:23 nothing wrong with [char] and char 00:10:34 no, sorry, I meant wrong with pygmy 00:10:36 except they add unneeded visual clutter :P 00:10:40 aha 00:10:40 heh 00:10:44 fpc defined ascii 00:10:49 yes, I've been irritated by the clutter, too 00:10:50 ascii x literal blah blah 00:10:53 mrreach: you said it was weird or something.. and did some questionable stuff 00:11:07 yes, pygmy is a rather unusual forth 00:11:18 its not a bad forth - it just messes with my head 00:11:20 heh 00:11:22 it has two and exactly two vocabularies 00:11:28 is cmforth unusual ? 00:11:28 ya 00:11:38 immediate etc ? 00:11:42 if a word is found in one vocab, it is executed during compilation 00:11:42 or is pygmy more unusual than cmforth ? 00:11:58 if it's found in the other vocab, it's compiled instead of executed 00:12:04 which forth did industrial light and magic use ? 00:12:06 never used cmforth 00:12:08 yeah, i thought it seemed inefficient to have the immediate words in a vocabulary 00:12:18 I440r: I think either FIG or F83 00:12:32 well, it's limits you to two vocabs 00:12:36 thought it was more efficient to use a flag in the headers of words to say it is immediate or not 00:12:48 chuck moore invented that himself right 00:12:52 the flag thing 00:13:06 incidently, immediacy has always been a headache to programmers from day one 00:13:06 man i realy wish isforth had vocabs 00:13:12 yes 00:13:20 yes, he did 00:13:25 ive been tempted to try get nasm to chain words on different vocs 00:13:31 cmforth isn't available for the pc? 00:13:34 but that would be a complete bitch 00:13:38 but you just can't get having immediate words in forth 00:13:56 i440r: why wouldn't you code the vocab from forth? 00:14:14 hm 00:14:15 nevermind 00:14:19 futhin because the words in the kernell need to be in vocs too 00:14:20 well, he needs the link fields in the words 00:14:26 yup 00:14:27 and nasm is used there 00:14:39 nasm chains the words together 00:14:39 and now I suspect that has driven him to try metacompiling 00:14:46 but all on the same chain 00:14:57 switching between different chains is going to be a bitch with nasm macros 00:15:12 i cant metacompile until i can assemble 00:15:17 actually, yoiu only need the forth chain in the minimal kernel 00:15:19 i440r: u look at the gforth assembler code ? 00:15:28 futhin a little 00:15:42 I440r: you can also write a word that moves a header from one vocab into another 00:15:46 and patch it up later 00:15:56 there are different architectures, should be a little handy 00:16:02 mrreach i had thunked of that too 00:16:08 headers are already reloaced on boot 00:16:15 more extraneous fluff, though 00:16:17 why not recahin them too 00:16:31 heh, it's not 'proper' 00:16:35 its STILL a very complex problem 00:16:54 they should be connected to their correct chain to begin with :P 00:17:08 you're still limiting yourself to exactly one segment? 00:17:31 yes and no 00:17:36 yes. with regards to nasm 00:17:49 because if i make any more.... nasm fucks all over the code 00:17:56 actually 2 secions 00:18:02 heh 00:18:02 .text and .data 00:18:08 .data being where headers are stored 00:18:14 that's a good idea rename @ as GET and ! as SAVE 00:18:26 the extended code thats fsaved is ONE section :) 00:18:30 any ideas for the >r and r> ? :) 00:18:39 heh, let's break the mind of every forth coder living 00:18:47 PUSH and POP 00:18:52 heh 00:18:58 well from what ive been seeing lately they are already b0rked :P 00:19:03 what are all the other cryptic one-char commands ? 00:19:07 like chuckie says 00:19:09 its not forth 00:19:09 and what about the two-char commands ? 00:19:15 its just a language with the same name :P 00:19:17 i j 00:19:23 i is ok 00:19:26 index and jndex ? 00:19:28 because of C 00:19:29 * MrReach checks ANS for cryptic words 00:19:46 somebody in this chan understood ! because he used smalltalk or something ? 00:19:50 does c have a 00:19:52 begin 00:19:53 foo 00:19:55 whilke 00:19:56 blah 00:19:58 oh! <# # #S and #> 00:19:59 repeat 00:19:59 ? 00:20:15 i challenge you to give better names than that 00:20:16 lol 00:20:18 +! 00:20:22 !> 00:20:26 +!> 00:20:28 +save 00:20:39 oh DOT 00:20:40 . 00:20:43 save!> !!!! 00:20:45 and ." 00:20:50 ( 00:20:51 \ 00:20:53 save> 00:20:58 \s ? 00:21:15 what brainiac thought up . and ." as the principal output words? 00:21:21 (Chuck, no doubt) 00:21:24 i440r: C has BEGIN REPEAT i think 00:21:30 heh 00:21:33 begin repeat is not even close to 00:21:34 begin 00:21:38 chuck did i bet 00:21:44 do this (leaves flag) 00:21:46 while 00:21:49 do this too 00:21:51 repeat 00:21:58 begin 00:22:00 <> is defined, while != is not 00:22:03 lots of code to do a test 00:22:06 whie 00:22:12 do this while test was true 00:22:13 repeat 00:22:15 does <> mean the same thing as != ? 00:22:20 yes 00:22:23 heh 00:22:23 <> is from basic 00:22:28 oh 00:22:29 ABORT" needs a flag ... should be ?ABORT" 00:22:46 its because < is less, > is greater so <> is not equals 00:22:49 it fits :) 00:22:49 futhin: in most people's thoughts, yes 00:22:58 mrreach yes i believe it should be 00:22:59 any ideas for renaming . (DOT) and ." ? 00:23:01 easier to type than != 00:23:08 PRINT 00:23:08 how about key? 00:23:15 key is pretty clear 00:23:15 PRINT for ." 00:23:18 but what for the number ? 00:23:24 PRINT# 00:23:25 what for "." ? 00:23:33 numberout 00:23:37 heh 00:23:39 and stringout 00:23:40 or #PRINT 00:23:46 cout! cin! 00:23:47 bwahaha 00:23:50 lol 00:23:50 or just OUT 00:23:59 emit ? 00:24:00 naw, out to where? 00:24:01 chrout ? 00:24:03 getchar putchar 00:24:03 out isn't that clear 00:24:04 emit is clear 00:24:28 yes, EMIT and TYPE are pretty clear 00:24:46 what about quit :) 00:24:52 getchar is more high-level than putchar :) 00:24:56 that should be renamed to start :) 00:25:03 quit & exit = let you quit forth 00:25:07 query and expect ? 00:25:10 I wish to god the ANS had chosen a different route on storing and retreiving mem data, in regards to bit size 00:25:20 bye isn't instuitive 00:25:23 i always type exit 00:25:24 or quit 00:25:25 heh 00:25:35 s/instuitive/intuitive 00:25:39 tsh dfines bye!!!! 00:25:48 you can bye from a tsh shell hehe 00:25:52 yes, I'm always typing BYE to TCL ... nad it borks 00:25:52 heheh 00:25:55 i think whoever did tsh did forth too :) 00:26:06 where's the fsh? 00:26:16 forth shell :P 00:26:19 forth is already an fsh :P 00:26:28 call it fish 00:26:34 forths interactive shell :) 00:26:44 ooh, too cool 00:26:45 fish 00:26:56 we now have a mascot for forth! ;) 00:26:58 fish! 00:27:14 I wish ANS had done something line C! C@ W! W@ ... Q! Q@ 00:27:16 if i had a forth operating system it would be a unix clone 00:27:19 fish are brain food & good for your hardons 00:27:23 i would call it fix :) 00:27:44 mrreach: Q! ? 00:27:46 unless your a girl:) 00:27:59 isforth originally had w@ and w! 00:28:00 hard nipples for em 00:28:00 quad-store ... for 64 bit numbers 00:28:10 for the girls 00:28:32 ooops, wrong name 00:28:33 i got rid of them tho cuz they annoyed me heh 00:28:37 O! O@ 00:28:44 they also have clitoris :P 00:28:45 for octuple store 00:29:08 they don't annoy me, except for my wife, but they distract me 00:29:15 lol 00:29:22 he was talking about Q! Q@ 00:29:23 --- join: hcf (~nef@d-216-195-147-194.gwi.net) joined #forth 00:29:28 hcf! 00:29:30 hi hcf 00:29:30 the people you live with always annoy you 00:29:31 ltns :) 00:29:32 hi 00:29:41 HAHA! 00:29:49 hcf: reading the log? :D 00:29:51 greets, hcf 00:29:53 you may wish to pause your discussion for a moment, as clog is going down for a min or so 00:30:03 ok, fine 00:30:03 lol 00:30:07 heh 00:30:23 everyone can safely say realy stupid things now ? 00:30:24 but this was *REALLY* valuable stuff 00:30:34 #forth is the only active channel logged by clog at the moment 00:30:36 in fact, I think clitoris came up 00:30:43 heh 00:30:51 it didnt - but it did nnow :) 00:30:52 not to worry, hcf 00:31:01 i440r: yeah it did, i brought it up 00:31:08 i missed it 00:31:11 i440r: fish give hardons for girls.. clitoris ;) 00:31:13 how the hell did that happen :P 00:31:39 since you wondered what it would do for the gilrs 00:31:40 girls 00:31:44 I'm gonna laugh my ass off if Moore watches this through the logs 00:31:51 lol 00:31:55 heheh 00:31:57 me too 00:31:59 i dont think he is gona show up 00:32:06 after all the disparaging things I've said about him 00:32:09 tho i would be REALY extatic if he did 00:32:13 unless i missed him :P 00:32:15 he probably won't email me until monday 00:32:19 if he does a vanity search, the logs will show up 00:32:25 pause now (if you wish) 00:32:26 nope 00:32:34 they aren't indexed? 00:32:35 --- quit: clog (^C) 00:32:35 --- log: stopped forth/02.04.21 00:33:53 --- log: started forth/02.04.21 00:33:53 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:33:53 --- topic: 'isforth -- http://isforth.clss.net | high-level extensions, portable code, future of forth - come to #forthos' 00:33:53 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Fri Apr 19 20:55:08 2002] 00:33:53 --- names: list (clog hcf MrReach davidw futhin I440r onetom Stepan Fare joa @ChanServ cdesousa) 00:33:55 u know what realy annoys me ? 00:34:03 CLOG! god I missed you! 00:34:07 clog sex! 00:34:09 you do a web search for isforth and theres LOADS of hits - heh 00:34:17 really? 00:34:19 but they are all to the old site 00:34:21 relaly? from typos? 00:34:23 or in germin :P 00:34:24 heh 00:34:25 ah! 00:34:44 I440r: btw, afaik, abi had a isforth factoid but it was removed as per your request when you felt the project was dead or something 00:34:46 germin must be what gerbils speak 00:34:49 clog: i'm kidding, we don't want to have sex with u 00:35:04 fare added a new one today heh 00:35:12 clog has to genitalia 00:35:17 s/to/no/ 00:35:23 ha! 00:35:30 I440r: added a new what? 00:35:32 its a hamaphordyte ? 00:35:37 hcf: surely some hooks can be coded in? ;) 00:35:42 a new factoid to an infobot heh 00:35:50 ok 00:36:21 hcn: what type of bot is clog? 00:36:22 isforth might still BE dead. lol 00:36:31 MrReach: logger, that's it 00:36:33 I440r: what features do you find valuable in a bot??? 00:36:41 !seen 00:36:43 based on eggdrop? what? 00:36:49 i wanna know when ppl are online in here :P 00:36:57 not based on any existing bot 00:37:00 futhin: what about you? 00:37:02 hcf: do you have a really leet setup that lets u read the logs with ease? i don't like reading the logs on the webbrowser because there's no wrapping of the text 00:37:05 ok 00:37:13 I'm currently coding a bot in TCL 00:37:14 I440r: hmm 00:37:30 maybe you'd like the stat bot that #assembler has 00:37:39 includes seen along w/ a bunch of stats 00:37:43 mrreach: !seen is the most useful 00:37:46 yea ive seen that 00:37:55 mrreach: and perhaps memo service 00:38:00 as in - who said the most etc hehe 00:38:01 futhin: uhm, less 00:38:05 who was most active etc 00:38:06 lol 00:38:07 for people too lazy to leave memos with memoserv 00:38:11 hcf: can you change the format of the logs a bit so that they wrap in a browser? 00:38:26 naw, i wouldn't do that.. 00:38:38 try http://www.tunes.org/~coreyr/ 00:38:50 i only do the raw format, others do the fancy poop 00:38:58 soon as i fix isforth's sockets ill get my forthbot back online 00:39:08 hcf the raw is better 00:39:16 because ppl can write their own formatters 00:39:21 exactly 00:39:27 if you format it it makes it harder for them to format it to their prefs. 00:39:45 unless they are too lazy 00:39:46 :) 00:40:06 that's somewhat better 00:40:23 way too small to read in my browser, though 00:40:31 and the table is all mangled 00:40:38 i downloaded all the logs awhile ago 00:40:49 MrReach: write your own log browser (raw to html), in forth, of course ;) 00:40:54 is there enough to fill a cd yet??? 00:41:11 I'd do it in TCL 00:41:23 easier to get into a window 00:41:26 mrreach i was thinking of making isforth compress its code and head space - and decompress at run time... 00:41:27 forth logs = ~7 megs 00:41:28 logs dir totals 132822528 bytes 00:41:41