00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.15
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07:57:45 <I440r> hi
07:57:47 <I440r> frac = new #forther ?
08:01:34 <onetom> ?
08:12:16 <I440r> frac - ive never seen him/her before :)
08:12:23 <I440r> so maybe we got a new #forth person ?
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08:25:57 <XeF4> oioi
08:26:21 <I440r> !
08:38:20 <onetom> I440r: aha. i dont even noticed himher... :)
08:38:31 <onetom> didnt
08:42:47 <I440r> :)
08:43:52 <I440r> anyone seen mrreach lately ?
08:44:05 <onetom> not much happens here the last days
08:44:18 <I440r> aha
08:44:27 <onetom> mrreach is still on the road ithink
08:44:38 <I440r> oh - he is on the road! hehe
08:44:46 <I440r> phew - was starting to wurree :)
08:45:08 <onetom> :)
08:45:34 <onetom> but probably we still should worry about him if
08:45:42 <onetom> hes on the road...
08:45:59 <onetom> we should help him getting up from there :)
08:46:04 <I440r> :)
08:46:20 <onetom> hows life anyway?
08:46:26 <onetom> what r u working on?
08:46:29 <I440r> not too bad
08:46:33 <I440r> been working on some guns
08:46:36 <I440r> actually
08:46:40 <onetom> ?
08:46:45 <I440r> havent been able to do any coding in about 3 days ehhe
08:46:53 <I440r> well. we took an old beat up mauser
08:47:00 <I440r> we took the barrel off the actipon
08:47:02 <I440r> action
08:47:13 <onetom> oh, c
08:47:34 <I440r> we used emery paper on same, cleaned it up
08:47:46 <I440r> then we used sharpening stones on some areas to remove dings
08:47:56 <onetom> im learning tunes.org, so i also dont code much
08:48:12 <onetom> dings? what r those?
08:48:17 <I440r> then we used a dremmel tool to polish the hard to reah parts ehhe
08:48:30 <I440r> we then used a buffing wheel to polish it up to mirror finnish
08:48:45 <I440r> we took the new barrel, blued it and fitted it
08:49:03 <I440r> the bolt on mausers sticks out straight and we want it to angle downwards
08:49:17 <I440r> so we sawed off the bolt handle. today were going to a welder to weld the new one on :)
08:49:47 <I440r> the newly barreled action is in its new stock waiting for the new bolt :)
08:50:14 <I440r> every single piece of that gun has been torn apart, polished re-blued and put back together
08:50:19 <I440r> took about a week 
08:50:34 <I440r> cost us about $400
08:50:52 <I440r> were waiting on our federal firearms lisence so we can actually SELL this modified weapon
08:51:04 <onetom> u plan 2 b an antiquarian? :)
08:51:06 <I440r> once we have it you can buy this gun for about $2000 :)
08:51:41 <onetom> so happy am i!
08:52:00 <onetom> i can buy it for a mere $2k
08:52:37 <onetom> bucks. its worth for even a fool :)
08:53:24 <XeF4> for $2k, it had better automatically hypnotize weapons inspectors :)
08:53:49 <I440r> no - it will
08:53:52 <I440r> trust me
08:54:04 <I440r> and we started with a realy shitty piece
08:54:10 <onetom> i dont doubt it
08:54:14 <I440r> there are dings in it still that we couldnt remove
08:54:23 <I440r> if we removed that much metal it would waken it too much
08:54:35 <onetom> what r those dings?
08:54:43 <onetom> FeO4 stains?
08:54:46 <I440r> if we started with a virgin piece with NO dings we could charge $4000 :)
08:54:49 <I440r> no
08:54:51 <I440r> bangs
08:54:51 <I440r> knocks
08:54:53 <onetom> imean rust spots?
08:54:57 <I440r> little dents in the steel
08:55:08 <I440r> yes and some pitting too
08:55:23 <I440r> the barrel we removed is very bad on the inside - very badly pitted
08:55:45 <I440r> but the action is still very good
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09:13:43 <Speuler_> 'd day
09:13:56 <rob_ert> Hi
09:13:57 <Fare> gakuk
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09:31:44 <Speuler> hehe
09:31:58 <Speuler> you just experienced the effects of milk in a computer
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09:33:12 <joa> mmk
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09:54:06 <onetom> Fare: ive started learning tunes.org
09:54:43 <onetom> Fare: and i saw it started many yrs b4
09:55:08 <onetom> Fare: why has it slowed down?
09:55:24 <onetom> Fare: what happens w it nowdays?
09:58:20 <Fare> slow down would imply that it ever was fast
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10:05:07 <rob_ert> :-)
10:05:20 <rob_ert> Nah, only "less slow".
10:06:28 <onetom> Fare: and what r the latest advancements?
10:06:36 <Fare> advancements?
10:07:29 <onetom> what code has been coded nowdays?
10:07:39 <Fare> about nothing
10:07:42 <onetom> any paper written or extended?
10:07:54 <onetom> umean roughly nothing?
10:07:54 <Fare> part of my thesis
10:08:06 <onetom> oh, yeah ive seen
10:08:08 <Fare> well, I'm writing a pattern-matcher in CL right now
10:08:16 <onetom> it was updated 10days b4
10:08:20 <onetom> last time
10:08:29 <Fare> the pattern matcher?
10:08:36 <Fare> my thesis?
10:08:45 <onetom> files in ur thesis dir
10:08:50 <onetom> (cvs)
10:09:01 <Fare> yup. I have long periods of not writing it :(
10:09:17 <Fare> I guess I'd write it faster if I had some feedback
10:09:26 <onetom> what is the due 4 it?
10:09:35 <Fare> long ago
10:09:40 <onetom> :))
10:10:29 <onetom> my girlfriend and an other girlfriend us r also about writing thesises
10:10:51 <onetom> they have ~2 weeks left
10:11:16 <onetom> i dont realy know lisp, tho ive learnt some prolog earier
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10:11:29 <onetom> and ran through an emacs lisp tutor
10:11:50 <onetom> if u think i could help testing it...
10:12:26 <onetom> what patters r u talkin about anyway?
10:12:44 <onetom> u r talkin about language recognition?
10:13:00 <Fare> It's Saint Paternus today
10:13:07 <Fare> the right day to release a pattern matcher
10:13:08 <onetom> a bnf like stuff?
10:13:23 <onetom> :))
10:13:23 <Fare> nah. I match LISP objects with LISP patterns.
10:13:30 <onetom> ahha
10:13:48 <onetom> wish i knew what lisp patterns r...
10:13:53 <Fare> something I can't do in FORTH, because it's too low-level to have objects
10:14:04 <Fare> no, there are no patterns in LISP
10:14:04 <onetom> aha
10:14:13 <Fare> but with macros, I can define them :) :) :)
10:14:18 <onetom> keep on explainin
10:14:35 <Fare> LISP is the only high-level language that is self-extensible like FORTH.
10:14:44 <Fare> (well, actually, maybe so is POP-11)
10:15:05 <onetom> hehe
10:15:06 <Fare> well, for instance, you can build a list with (list 1 2 3 4
10:15:08 <Fare> )
10:15:19 <davidw_> lisp is cool
10:15:21 <onetom> ok, thats right. i knew that :)
10:15:43 <onetom> i refered 2 the list creation :)
10:15:51 <onetom> no lisp coolness
10:15:53 <onetom> not
10:15:54 <Fare> let's say you want to match it (or another similar list) to put the first element in A, the second in B, etc.
10:16:04 <Fare> you could match it with the pattern (LIST A B C D)
10:16:10 <davidw_> someone should write a scheme in forth
10:16:34 <onetom> davidw_: dont worry some will :)
10:16:38 <onetom> some time
10:16:44 <Fare> if you did (LIST A B C D) afterwards, you'd get back a list that is equal to the original one.
10:16:56 <Fare> you can have more elaborate patterns, like
10:16:59 <onetom> ugh... cant understand
10:17:12 <onetom> but show me more examples
10:17:25 <Fare> (LIST (LIST A B) (CONS C '1) 'NIL T)
10:18:09 <Fare> this one would match the list '((0 1) (2 . 1) nil 123)
10:18:20 <Fare> with A=0, B=1, C=2
10:18:26 <onetom> aha
10:18:29 <Fare> T matches anything (while 'T matches T)
10:18:37 <Fare> 'NIL matches NIL
10:19:44 <Fare> '<foo> is a short for (QUOTE <foo>), which as a form produces the literal constant <foo>, and as a pattern matches said constant only
10:20:12 <Fare> davidw_: the more I learn common lisp, the more I think Scheme is mostly wrong-headed
10:21:06 <Fare> it can never be more than a teacher's toy, or it ceases to be scheme.
10:21:36 <onetom> brb
10:24:31 <Fare> david: see POPLOG
10:27:58 <davidw_> why do you say that?
10:28:03 <davidw_> common lisp seems bloated to me
10:28:09 <davidw_> a small core is the right approach
10:28:12 <davidw_> whatever the language
10:28:22 <Fare> common lisp is not that bloated, actually.
10:28:48 <Fare> I agree there could be some simplification and modularization here and there
10:29:09 <Fare> but hey, a full LISP, including compiler, fits 1MB.
10:29:17 <Fare> Try fitting a C compiler + libc in that
10:29:55 <Fare> certainly, you can have a minimal forth in 12K
10:30:03 <davidw_> what lisp is that?!
10:30:07 <Fare> but then, you can have a minimal LISP in about the same
10:30:11 <Fare> davidw: clisp
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10:31:40 <Fare> granted, my latest clisp is more like 2mb
10:34:50 <Fare> which part of common lisp would you REMOVE, as oppose to modularize?
10:34:57 <davidw> well, I'm going drinking
10:35:02 <davidw> I'll have one for clisp
10:35:20 * onetom travels into an other city. bb in half an hour
10:36:04 <Fare> (and even, so as to modularize it, you'd have to ADD a module system)
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10:38:38 <futhin> wow..
10:38:41 <futhin> lots of new people ?
10:38:47 <futhin> howdy joa and frac
10:39:02 <joa> hi :)
10:39:13 <futhin> how did you find out about this chan? :)
10:39:43 <Fare> joa: you're here, too?!
10:39:59 <joa> ya heh
10:40:03 <joa> xef4's whois
10:40:11 <MrReach> well, that tells us how joa found the channel
10:40:40 <rob_ert> Hi MrReach :-)
10:41:14 <MrReach> hihi!
10:42:07 <onetom> hi mrreach
10:42:17 <onetom> so u r back from the trip
10:42:22 <MrReach> yup
10:42:30 <MrReach> its was hella fun
10:42:37 <MrReach> *WAY* fun
10:42:38 <onetom> alright then
10:42:54 <onetom> how did ur dogs like it? :)
10:43:09 <MrReach> they stayed locked in the house   @:^<
10:43:34 <futhin> of course they did, they can't appreciate the finer things in life ;)
10:43:55 <MrReach> not to mentions, dogs in the car are a real nuisance
10:44:46 <futhin> naw, not if you roll down the window and let them dribble salivia all over the side
10:51:57 <MrReach> if I role down the window, they're likely to jump out on the freeway
10:52:32 <futhin> hm, doesn't sound like your average dog
10:53:07 <futhin> watch a few dog obediance training t.v shows :P
10:53:15 <MrReach> heh
10:53:22 <MrReach> I'm exagerating a bit
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11:22:27 <futhin> watching a dog obediance training show is interesting
11:22:47 <futhin> because you can apply just about everything from the show onto humans! :P
11:23:00 <futhin> i.e
11:23:10 <futhin> you can learn human psychology just from watching the dogs get trained
11:23:41 <futhin> cause in the end, we're all a bunch of animals
11:23:57 <futhin> some of you might disagree philosophically though..  
11:26:11 <futhin> i don't think there is any meaning to life
11:26:19 <futhin> aside from what you give yourself internally..
11:28:02 <MrReach> heh
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11:43:13 <futhin> what's up xef4?
11:43:47 <XeF4> nothing terribly interesting at the moment.
12:36:51 <onetom> horvaths: ti mivel szoptok?
12:36:58 <onetom> whoops :)
12:45:53 <onetom> futhin: i agree w u on the meaning of life :)
12:54:09 * davidw doesn't like dogs
12:54:19 <davidw> well, some are ok, but I'm more of a cat person
12:54:38 <MrReach> we have two small dogs and two huge cats
12:54:45 <davidw> Fare: common lisp has no module system?
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13:30:24 <Speuler> 'day
13:30:44 <rob_ert> Good evening.
13:31:08 * rob_ert wonders if MathML is a good thing to use.
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16:06:35 <I440r> damn - not many ppl in here these days :P
16:06:35 <I440r> joa!
16:06:45 <I440r> another new #forth person ??? :)
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16:32:27 <Frac> Hey all.
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17:41:11 <Frac> Hey I440r
17:41:18 <Frac> Just got IsForth compiled.
17:41:30 <I440r> hi frac :)
17:41:37 <Frac> It's pretty neat, I must say.
17:41:42 <I440r> cool
17:41:53 <I440r> :)
17:42:04 <Frac> I've been trying to implement my own forth for a bit, actually. I'm wondering if I could ask you some questions.
17:42:07 <I440r> i worked hard on it but its not perfect yet :)
17:42:11 <I440r> YET!
17:42:11 <Frac> :)
17:42:13 <I440r> heh
17:42:17 <I440r> sure
17:42:19 <I440r> ask away
17:42:20 <Frac> Heh.
17:42:22 <Frac> Cool.
17:42:26 * MrGone unlurks
17:42:28 <I440r> questions on forth are always welcome
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17:42:38 <I440r> unless i dont know the answer :)
17:42:45 <I440r> :)
17:42:55 <I440r> and if i dont know the anser mrreach does :)
17:43:06 <Frac> Ok. When you do parsing like with ." ewjhwe", where does it put the string delimited by the ", and when does it free it back to the OS?
17:43:08 <Frac> :)
17:43:20 <I440r> it doesnt need to free it
17:43:22 <MrReach> of course, I know *EVERYTHING*
17:43:29 <Frac> Why not?
17:43:33 <I440r> forth allocates a chunk of memory for itself
17:44:01 <I440r> there is a variable pointing to the end of where forth has actually used 
17:44:03 <I440r> called here
17:44:10 <I440r> everything above here is free
17:44:13 <MrReach> erm ... it *CAN* be freed, if FORGET is implemented
17:44:27 <I440r> when you parse a string it gets placed at here
17:44:32 <I440r> isforth puts it at hhere
17:44:51 <I440r> hhere is like here but instead of for code and colon defs hhere is for headers only
17:45:14 <I440r> the word parse is what you need to study
17:45:14 <Frac> Ok... I'm already getting lost. :)
17:45:18 <I440r> parse and parseword
17:45:22 <I440r> its easy
17:45:24 <I440r> do this
17:45:25 <Frac> Any good FAQs on writing forth systems?
17:45:30 <Frac> Ok.
17:45:30 <MrReach> I think that frac is thinking that ." strings get put into allocated memory
17:45:37 <Frac> Yeah.
17:45:42 <I440r> ohhh
17:45:47 <MrReach> which is a misnomer ... they are compiled into the dictionary
17:45:53 <I440r> correct
17:45:57 <Frac> Really?
17:46:05 <I440r> do you know what an immediate word is ?
17:46:05 <Frac> Shit. I've been doing it wrong then.
17:46:07 <MrReach> so they become a paermanent part of the forth
17:46:13 <Frac> Non-compiled word?
17:46:15 <I440r> no
17:46:20 <Frac> Uh oh. :)
17:46:20 <I440r> forth has 2 states
17:46:24 <I440r> interpret and compile
17:46:28 <Frac> Check.
17:46:29 <I440r> if you type 
17:46:30 <I440r> foo
17:46:39 <I440r> and you are in interpret it will execute the word foo
17:46:49 <MrReach> I440r: does your ." work in interpret mode?
17:46:49 <Frac> Right. Got that.
17:46:54 <I440r> if you are in compile mode it will store the address of foo at here and advance
17:47:09 <I440r> no it doesnt - it should have a compile only flag on it heh
17:47:19 <I440r> so
17:47:27 <MrReach> ok, any plans to make it work in interpret mode?
17:47:44 <I440r> not unless you can give me a valid reson to do so
17:47:58 <I440r> why would you ever NEED to 
17:48:03 <I440r> ." blah blah" 
17:48:06 <I440r> in interpret mode
17:48:11 <I440r> were getting sidetracked heh
17:48:19 <Frac> Heh. No worries. :)
17:48:27 <I440r> ." is a compile mode only word
17:48:30 <Frac> I'm still learning stuff. :)
17:48:31 <I440r> and it is immediate
17:48:47 <I440r> an immediate word EXECXUTES even when you are in compile mode
17:49:01 <I440r> : hello ." hello world" ;
17:49:04 <MrReach> ok, to use ." ...
17:49:19 <I440r> you are in compile mode when forth sees the ."
17:49:21 <MrReach> it must be a part of a colon definition ... and hence becomes part of the kernel
17:49:27 <I440r> dot quote executes
17:49:37 <I440r> it compiles (.") to here
17:49:52 <I440r> it then parses the input to the next " char
17:49:56 <MrReach> the only way to deallocate the memory is to FORGET the word that it is in ... if FORGET or MARKER are implemented yet
17:49:57 <I440r> and compiles that to here
17:50:10 <I440r> no neither are
17:50:18 <I440r> not much point till i get vocabs
17:50:31 <Frac> What is vocab?
17:50:37 <MrReach> actually, I440r has been struggling with ." a little
17:50:49 <I440r> mrreach no i havent :P
17:51:02 <I440r> not that i remember :)
17:51:04 <I440r> er
17:51:12 <I440r> thers nothing complex about it realy :)
17:51:13 <MrReach> well, we once had an indepth discussion about having to jump over the characters burried in a word
17:51:19 <I440r> nooooo
17:51:25 <I440r> not with dot qout4e
17:51:27 <I440r> thats fine
17:51:33 <I440r> the problem is with s"
17:51:39 <MrReach> a vocabulary is a group of words
17:51:47 <MrReach> oh! that's right!
17:51:50 <Frac> Oh. Like another dictionary?
17:51:52 <I440r> i consider s" a bad word 
17:51:56 <MrReach> Frac: exactly
17:52:00 <I440r> yes frac!!!
17:52:01 <Frac> Oh. I see.
17:52:04 <I440r> ok
17:52:08 <I440r> let me continue 
17:52:16 <I440r> you type
17:52:16 <MrReach> most forths allow several vocabs in a "search order"
17:52:17 <I440r> hello
17:52:28 <Frac> Ok.
17:52:39 <I440r> forth executes the word hello. and that calls the (.") that ." compiled in
17:53:09 <I440r> paren dot quote knows that the string to be displayed is INLINE with the code
17:53:15 <I440r>  dd (.")
17:53:19 <I440r>  db length
17:53:25 <I440r>  db 'some string'
17:53:27 <onetom> hi
17:53:38 <I440r> forth strings are usually a count followed by the string
17:53:54 <MrReach> greets, onetom
17:54:00 <I440r> neway mrreach how was your trip :)
17:54:03 <I440r> and welcomem back :)
17:54:07 <Frac> Ok. See, I didn't realize that the dictionary contained strings.
17:54:16 <onetom> Frac: i could bravely advice u a minimal 4th implementation base on 9 primitive words and implemented purely in 4th
17:54:47 <Frac> Heh. Ok...
17:54:53 <MrReach> haha! meet the extreme minimalist!
17:54:58 <I440r> actualy, i would suggest learning how to use all the words in the dictionary before learning how they work
17:55:10 <I440r> the "how they work" will become more obvious the more you learn :)
17:55:13 <Frac> Heh. That'd probably be a good plan.
17:55:30 <onetom> Frac: its just a 9657 bytes long 4th src
17:55:35 <I440r> i was programming in forth for YEARS without knowing how to MAKE a forth hehe
17:55:43 <I440r> im still learning how to MAKE a forth :)
17:55:49 <Frac> Heh.
17:55:59 <Frac> onetom : Cool.
17:56:13 <MrReach> heh, just figured out how to make money on IRC ... I _think_
17:56:19 <Frac> Ok, one more question: What is the difference between the control stack and the return stack?
17:56:19 <onetom> I440r: ithink Frac know many words already...
17:56:31 <MrReach> but it's complete off topic here
17:56:32 <I440r> im sure he does :)
17:56:41 <I440r> mrreach #forth isnt moderated :)
17:56:45 <Frac> Yeah, I can make a hello world. :)
17:56:50 <I440r> i was talking gun smithing earlier today ehh
17:57:01 <I440r> my fater and i just sporterized an old mauser
17:57:30 <MrReach> would you pay $10/mo on EFNet to have a bot secure your channel with a boatload of features?
17:57:36 <onetom> u must love guns. this isnt the 1st time u r talkin about them :)
17:57:49 <I440r> :)
17:57:55 <I440r> mrreach some people might
17:58:22 <I440r> actually i wouldnt mind a bot in here with a "seen" option
17:58:23 <MrReach> stuff like logging to web-page, dice-rolling, fortunecookie, trivia (customizable to the channel) ... etc?
17:58:38 <MrReach> yes, would it be worth $10/mo?
17:58:42 <I440r> that would be so easy to do with isforth :)
17:58:42 <onetom> all: what about an experiment w Frac?
17:58:45 <I440r> it might be to some
17:58:58 <Frac> Eh?
17:59:01 <MrReach> do you use EFNet much?
17:59:13 <onetom> all: lets give him the minimal.f83 and bet on him :)
17:59:22 <Frac> Ha!
17:59:34 <onetom> wheather will itt help him a lot or not :)
17:59:40 <MrReach> onetom: yeah, let's see how many of Frac's fingers we can cut off before he passes out ... anyone know where he lives?
17:59:46 <onetom> Frac: what do u think about it?
17:59:54 <onetom> lol
17:59:59 <Frac> Heh. Dunno.
18:00:24 <onetom> Frac: hold on. i ll give u an url
18:00:29 <Frac> Ok.
18:00:52 <I440r> btw mrrach - isforth has a new home (check topic!!)
18:01:05 <onetom> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/minimal.f83
18:01:07 <MrReach> cool!
18:01:16 <Frac> Ok.
18:01:55 <Frac> BTW : If anyone wants to see my lame attempt at a forth compiler: www.hcsw.org/downloads/forth-alpha.tgz
18:02:12 <onetom> Frac: i recommend reading it w some syntax highlight capable editor
18:03:06 <MrReach> well, time for me to shower ... be well all of you
18:03:10 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
18:03:12 <Frac> Later.
18:03:28 <Frac> onetom : 404 not found.
18:03:30 <Frac> :(
18:04:47 <onetom> sec
18:05:04 <onetom> iwas browsing ur 4th :)
18:05:25 <Frac> :)
18:05:39 <onetom> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/minimal.f83
18:05:41 <onetom> sorry
18:05:52 <Frac> It's written in C, which as I gather from the IsForth README, is a big no-no. :)
18:06:08 <Frac> Cool. Got it.
18:06:18 <onetom> Soap`:
18:06:23 <onetom> shit? :)
18:06:24 <onetom>  so:
18:07:09 <I440r> hehe
18:07:12 <I440r> for me it is :)
18:07:19 <onetom> uve tried to apply an evil solution for primitive word definition
18:07:45 <onetom> but as far as i can c uve got whats wrong w it :)
18:08:16 <onetom> why cant swap() pop()/pop() even work...
18:08:46 <onetom> 1 cant rely on expression evaluation order if
18:09:10 <onetom> that expression contains functions w side effects
18:09:13 <Frac> The C standard doesn't define which expressions in a function call will be executed first, so you have to use an intermediate.
18:09:27 <onetom> thats it :)
18:09:37 <Frac> Which function are you talking about?
18:09:43 <onetom> like pop
18:09:57 <onetom> it not just returns a value
18:10:25 <onetom> it has a side effect: it modifies the stack
18:10:28 <Frac> Hm. One sec.
18:10:55 <Frac> Oh, right. Yeah, a bit of a hack. Push, pop, rot, and pick modify the stack directly.
18:10:57 <onetom> but uve worked around the problem well
18:11:21 <onetom> so we could skip this topic :)
18:11:38 <Frac> :)
18:11:53 <onetom> ur textual style is pretty readable
18:11:55 <Frac> Really, I'm not very satisfied with it. Especially the parsing.
18:11:59 <Frac> Thank you. :)
18:12:24 <onetom> well, parsing is already usually solved in 4th
18:12:39 <onetom> not in the implementation language :-/
18:12:59 <Frac> So I gather...
18:13:03 <onetom> (we could also name it: host language)
18:13:25 <onetom> but its not a problem ithink, coz the parser is very simple
18:13:31 <Frac> Yeah.
18:13:50 <onetom> it only have 2 extract space separated words
18:13:52 <Frac> Of course, I haven't got the return stack workign.
18:14:10 <Frac> So no loops. :(
18:14:18 <onetom> that is: look4 a non-space, then look4 space
18:14:41 <Frac> Ok.
18:14:53 <onetom> no problem, lets consider now the host lang parser case:
18:15:04 <onetom> void parse() {
18:15:09 <Frac> Yup.
18:15:19 <Frac> Er.
18:15:35 <Frac> Mine is: int parse(char *toparse) {
18:15:45 <onetom>   push(look4nonspace());
18:15:56 <Frac> parse is called on a line per line basis by ui
18:16:00 <onetom>   push(look4space()-1);
18:16:16 <Frac> Oh...
18:16:23 <Frac> It pushes it onto the data stack?
18:16:29 <onetom>   reload_buff();
18:16:40 <onetom> where else? ;))
18:16:46 <onetom> to where else? ;))
18:16:50 <Frac> Heh. I suppose.
18:16:58 <Frac> I'm still a tad confused on the return stack's function.
18:17:05 <Frac> It's purpose, that is.
18:17:10 <onetom> so, dont b confused :)
18:17:16 <onetom> ask!
18:17:21 <onetom> whats wrong w it?
18:17:32 <I440r> frac
18:17:36 <Frac> Heh. Ok. When is it used?
18:17:38 <Frac> Yo.
18:17:38 <I440r> lets look at how c works
18:17:41 <I440r> for a second
18:17:46 <onetom> Frac: aaall the time :)
18:17:46 <I440r> push parameter
18:17:47 <I440r> push parameter
18:17:47 <I440r> push parameter
18:17:50 <I440r> call function
18:17:52 <I440r> ....
18:17:57 <I440r> function:
18:18:02 <I440r>   open local stack frame
18:18:07 <I440r>   do function
18:18:12 <I440r>    clean stack frame
18:18:14 <I440r>   return
18:18:16 <Frac> Right.
18:18:16 <I440r> ...
18:18:20 <I440r>   clean parameters off stack
18:18:40 <Frac> So every time a word is called, it considers it a function call?
18:18:42 <I440r> c uses ONE stack for return addresses for function calls and for parameters to the functions
18:18:47 <I440r> yes
18:18:49 <Frac> Yeah.
18:18:58 <Frac> Whereas forth uses 2.
18:19:00 <Frac> Makes sense.
18:19:08 <I440r> return addresses get put on the return stack.
18:19:39 <I440r> you can use the return stack for other thigns too but if you push anything onto it you HAVE to pop them off again before you exit
18:19:48 <I440r> i.e. before the end of the word
18:20:21 <Frac> Ok. That's where I'm confused. Wouldn't the >R word push another address onto the stack too?
18:20:32 <I440r> hehe
18:20:43 <I440r> >r is used to move something out of the way
18:20:56 <I440r> you would do
18:20:56 <I440r> >r foo foo foo r> blah blah
18:20:58 <Frac> Hm. Sorry, my forth vocabulary isn't great. :)
18:21:16 <Frac> How do you push onto return stack again?
18:21:22 <onetom> Frac: it pushes the data from the parameter stack under its own retrun address
18:21:38 <I440r> not a problem
18:21:38 <I440r> dont appologise for beinga  beginner :)
18:21:50 <Frac> onetom : Ah, that makes sense...
18:21:55 <Frac> I440r : :)
18:22:00 <I440r> frac watch
18:22:03 <Frac> Ok.
18:22:05 <I440r> 1 2 3 >r swap r>
18:22:14 <I440r> leaves 2 1 3 on the parameter stack
18:22:34 <Frac> Ok... Gotcha.
18:23:24 <I440r> >r is pronounced "to r"
18:23:24 <Frac> And if you hit the end of the word without r>ing, you'll get a segfault.
18:23:30 <I440r> r> is "r to"
18:23:33 <Frac> Oh, ok.
18:23:50 <Frac> r> d>
18:23:51 <Frac> ;)
18:23:53 <I440r> probably :)
18:24:58 <Frac> Ok. I think I've got the return stack understood. The thing is, I'm using C recursion in place of the return stack.
18:25:27 <Frac> So everytime another word is called, it just calls execword() again.
18:25:34 <I440r> :)
18:25:53 <I440r> anything you can do WITH recursion.... you can do BETTER without
18:26:10 <I440r> thats basicaly how forth works - sorta
18:26:17 <Frac> Except quicksort() :)
18:26:22 <I440r> but its not recursive realy
18:26:28 <Frac> Ok...
18:26:33 <I440r> forth has an interprative pointer (called ip)
18:26:43 <I440r> a colon definition is basicaly just a list of addresses
18:26:48 <Frac> Right.
18:26:56 <I440r> the addresses of each word to call
18:26:56 <I440r>  dd x1
18:26:56 <I440r>  dd x2
18:26:57 <I440r>  dd x3
18:27:15 <Frac> Gotcha.
18:27:24 <I440r> ip points at x1
18:27:24 <I440r> forth fetches the address of x1 and jumps to that address
18:27:44 <I440r> IP is now pointing at x2 so when x1 finishes x2 is the NEXT execution token to be fetched
18:27:50 <onetom> Frac: so u also know assembly..
18:27:58 <Frac> A tad.
18:28:04 <I440r> learn next, nest and unnest and you will be well on your way to understanding forth:)
18:28:09 <Frac> Enough to get the gist.
18:28:30 <Frac> I440r : Ok, that makes sense.
18:28:38 <Frac> Think I've got you there.
18:29:01 <Frac> That reminds me though. What if there's a number, say 2, in a colon def. It can't very well have an address...
18:29:16 <Frac> I've done a cheap hack in my implementation.
18:29:30 <I440r> aha
18:29:36 <I440r> GOOD question
18:29:40 <I440r> forth compiels the word (literal)
18:29:40 <Frac> Thanks. :)
18:29:48 <I440r> dd (literal), some-number
18:30:10 <I440r> (literal) executes and fetches the inline number
18:30:13 <Frac> Oh, ok...
18:30:31 <Frac> The number stored at the next address?
18:30:44 <I440r> IP is advanced past the number
18:31:25 <I440r> yes
18:31:36 <I440r> its compiled into the : definition
18:31:52 <Frac> Hm. I guess that makes sense... So dictionary entries can be of arbitrary length?
18:32:50 <I440r> yes
18:32:50 <I440r> but MOST of them are quite small
18:32:50 <I440r> because in forth you factor your code better
18:32:52 <I440r> its a forth tradition :P
18:33:03 <Frac> Heh. Gotcha.
18:33:36 <Frac> Ok, also, I was wondering what this control stack is? It's only used in compiling colondefs, right?
18:33:38 <onetom> tho, its not a tradition infact..
18:33:51 <onetom> its rather a phylosophy...
18:33:56 <onetom> mind it!
18:34:15 <onetom> traditions r silly things usually
18:34:16 <I440r> frac - control stack ?
18:34:35 <Frac> Heh. Yeah, that's what got me interested in Forth in the first place. It's elegance.
18:34:47 <Frac> I440r : Yeah, the ANS standard keeps talking about it.
18:34:48 <onetom> they suffer from the dumb things of the past....
18:35:12 <I440r> well - i dont know ans :)
18:35:17 <onetom> the make bad heritage live longer
18:35:24 <I440r> what i do know - i dislike :P
18:35:25 <onetom> s/the/they
18:35:52 <Frac> Heh. Fair enough.
18:36:59 <Frac> Hm. Ok, guys. Thanks for all your help.
18:37:10 <Frac> I'm AFK for a while.
18:37:51 <I440r> ok :)
18:37:51 <I440r> glad to see new ppl in here
18:38:01 <onetom> i agree :)
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20:47:57 <I440r> herkamire: 
20:48:09 <herkamire> :)
20:52:00 <herkamire> the crappy little forth I've been writing in C is working :)
20:52:24 <herkamire> that took about a week :)
20:52:47 <I440r> hrh
20:52:50 <I440r> heh even
20:53:38 <herkamire> not complete... but working :) I have : ; IF THEN REPEAT UNTIL
20:54:06 <herkamire> DO/LOOP is the only major thing i'm missing
20:55:31 <I440r> do and loop arent taht much harder than if then etc
20:55:42 <I440r> hmm cept ur coding it in c heh
20:55:58 <herkamire> my code is kinda stupid. 
20:56:22 <herkamire> but that's kinda the point; it's a crash course in writing a forth :)
20:56:46 <herkamire> "if you want something done right, do it twice"
20:58:26 <I440r> heh
20:58:27 <I440r> exactly
20:58:28 <I440r> !!!
20:59:21 <herkamire> I figure some time I'm going to want to do it right :) :) :)
20:59:44 <I440r> i redo my code over and over till i like it
20:59:47 <I440r> im a very slow coder
21:00:15 <herkamire> sounds good :)
21:01:05 <I440r> now... if i could just get someone to PAY me to :P
21:01:28 <herkamire> I have a tendancy to write quick hacks (just get it working), but that's often my goal from the begining. Experiments.
21:02:04 <I440r> i do that too sometimes
21:02:22 <I440r> becayse the "quick hack" can act as a proof for the idea
21:02:38 <herkamire> yep :)
21:02:54 <herkamire> I just wanted to make a quick program to see if my idea would make cool graphics :)
21:03:11 <I440r> does it ? heh
21:03:44 <herkamire> yes :)  http://www.luckydogdesign.com/jason/images/fractals/koch/
21:04:41 <herkamire> now I have to decide if I want to polish/redo the interface, or just keep it to myself, or document the interface in all it's excentricity.
21:05:00 <I440r> neat!
21:05:08 <I440r> koch looks very similar to my fave farctal
21:05:12 <I440r> dragon curve :)
21:05:25 <herkamire> I'm not farmiliar with that one.
21:05:52 <I440r> i have a hand drawn dragon curve of the 6th or 7th level
21:06:30 <I440r> dragon curve is neat. thers a number of ways to draw it. from a primative of 2 lines at 90% to each other being rotated over and over
21:06:31 <I440r> or
21:06:36 <I440r> take the original line 
21:06:43 <I440r> erm lines
21:07:00 <I440r> draw the same pattern over the top of the first line and then over the top of the second line
21:07:09 <I440r> scaled of corse....
21:07:27 <I440r> then draw scaled versions of the same 90 degree primative over the top of each of the new lines
21:07:31 <I440r> and keep going over and over
21:07:39 <I440r> its a little difficult to describe :)
21:07:43 <I440r> let me see if i can find one
21:08:44 <I440r> aha - check out the following url
21:09:06 <herkamire> sounds exactly like what I'm doing
21:09:15 <I440r> http://ejad.best.vwh.net/java/fractals/jurasic.shtml
21:09:23 <I440r> alot of fractals are built that way
21:10:07 <herkamire> I allow you to make any figure of line segments connected end to end (up to 10 currently)
21:11:03 <herkamire> mmm... I don't support java on the web.
21:11:20 <I440r> me either heh
21:11:31 <I440r> but the description is better than mine
21:11:56 <I440r> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DragonCurve.html
21:11:58 <I440r> this shows it
21:12:37 <herkamire> nice
21:12:42 <herkamire> yeah that's what I'm doing.
21:13:01 <I440r> dragon curve is my absolue fave fractal :)
21:13:51 <herkamire> you click to create the figure, then you can drag the end points around until you like how it looks, then you quit and a seprate program I wrote renders it really nicely like the pictures I showed you
21:14:38 <herkamire> I don't know many. I've had a bunch of fun with the mandelbrot and julia sets. I made a very nice program for Mac that jenerates them very fast
21:15:30 <I440r> cool
21:16:38 <herkamire> my koch program is for linux, if you want to try it I'll document it, although it's pretty self explanitory
21:20:29 <I440r> have you seen xaos ?
21:26:35 <herkamire> yes :)
21:26:51 <I440r> its fscking COOL!!!!
21:28:40 <herkamire> wait... maybe not
21:29:29 <herkamire> does it work on linux?
21:29:37 <I440r> corse :)
21:29:42 <I440r> apt-get isntall -f xaos
21:29:48 <I440r> works in x and console i believe
21:29:56 <I440r> i think console needs frame buffer
21:31:15 <I440r> neway im outa here - :)
21:31:16 <herkamire> I don't do debian or whatever that is
21:31:17 <I440r> nite nie
21:31:24 <I440r> well get xaos however :)
21:31:28 <I440r> check it out
21:31:30 <I440r> nite nite
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