00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.11 01:09:19 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 01:09:20 --- quit: MrGone (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:26:19 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:10:25 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix3.panix.com) joined #forth 09:01:27 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.174.2) joined #forth 09:07:43 --- part: futhin left #forth 09:07:45 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.174.2) joined #forth 09:07:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 09:07:53 --- mode: futhin set -o futhin 09:08:01 howdy goshawk` 09:08:20 btw, forth inc. didn't create the ANS standard 09:08:39 oh, hey hey 09:08:48 just happened to be logged in when I noticed you 09:08:51 no, I know that 09:08:57 they were a significant part of the committee though 09:09:07 eh.. i didn't know that 09:09:13 and most of the people on the committee had a lot of dealings with Forth Inc. though 09:09:18 some people think the ANS standard killed forth :) 09:09:26 and more particularly, Elizabeth Rather 09:09:32 (the president of Forth Inc.) 09:09:46 so, it was like Liz and kin stole the show =) 09:09:51 elizabeth rather was on the committee? 09:10:05 damn straight...she was the main representative from Forth Inc. 09:10:28 and if you ask me, the main representative of the committee itself 09:10:30 hm.. no wonder chuck moore doesn't get along with her any more .. 09:11:17 do you think the ANS standard killed forth? :) 09:11:52 well, from what I heard from Mr. Fox, Elizabeth is still mad that he left the company and didn't provide such a cash cow for her to steal 09:12:15 I mean, polyForth was basically Forth Inc.'s "flagship" product for general-purpose computers 09:12:19 heh 09:12:25 and it was practically written in its entirety by Mr. Moore 09:12:52 I would give a little salt to that argument, but I think it does have at least a little merit 09:13:10 considering that Elizabeth is doing all sorts of things with smart cards now 09:13:25 ahh.. i should get polyforth then.. to see how the internals are coded 09:13:28 so, it does seem true that she is sort of "ethically challenged" as a few people have asserted 09:13:49 well, keep in mind that polyForth/32 was released after Mr. Moore left 09:13:56 (in '83 or so? if I recall to do Forth chips) 09:14:22 but, most of the algorithms and fundamental coding was basically his, left over from the older polyForth systems (such as the one for the PDP) 09:14:23 mr. moore left willingly didn't he.. she didn't really "steal" the company? 09:14:39 he willingly left 09:14:43 from what I know 09:14:52 but who knows how the politics were playeds 09:14:57 yeah, true 09:14:59 he may have had no real choice 09:15:07 or found himself "on the back burner" 09:15:18 how did you find this channel by the way? :) 09:15:30 * futhin advertised the channel on the two forth wikis on the web :P 09:15:41 where no one pays any attention to him or his ideas, but people happily profit from anything cool he produces and relabel it as a "genius prdouct of Forth Inc." 09:16:01 purely by accident, actually...just typed in #Forth to see if there was anything on OPN 09:16:09 ahh 09:16:30 i'm just curious if my advertising on the forth wiki is getting any people.. but so far it doesn't seem so 09:16:37 hah, sorry to hear that 09:16:41 heh :) 09:16:53 this channel is a LOT more active than the EFnet #FOrth 09:16:57 a year ago i advertised on comp.lang.forth but only 1 person came :) 09:17:24 which is quite apparent as the *other* regular in that channel 09:17:44 yeah, I haven't paid much attention to c.l.f 09:17:47 i'm thinking maybe i should do a really smart marketting trick: invite chuck moore to this channel for an hour, to answer questions, etc 09:17:57 advertise it on comp.lang.forth 09:18:00 too much stress for too little gain 09:18:08 heh 09:18:17 he doesn't seem to be the irc'ing type 09:18:23 but that was just my impression 09:18:26 yeah, i'm not much of a news group reader myself. but i think i probably should read the news groups.. 09:18:29 well yeah 09:18:35 but it would only be for an hour or something.. 09:18:44 that's true 09:18:51 if he agrees, you'd be right 09:18:54 just inviting a celebrity so that people can ask questions 09:19:05 that would be decent marketing 09:19:10 yeah :) 09:19:22 so you know jeff fox in person ? 09:19:31 maybe in addition to that, you can setup a replacement FIG that isn't run by a close associate of Lizzy 09:19:50 yeah.. 09:19:51 no, but I had quite a few chats by email 09:20:28 so, not a "stranger" either 09:21:17 why do you ask? 09:21:19 i've had a few ideas about setting up a proper website dedicated to forth.. with articles, introduction, repository of all the forth code out there, etc.. 09:21:58 in fact, i've been meaning to write an essay on forth.. kind of an introduction & explaining the forth philosophy.. 09:22:11 mostly because i wanted to better convince my friends about forth 09:22:25 yeah, that would be pretty neat 09:22:34 just curious, it would be nice to hear if you met jeff fox or chuck moore, etc ;) 09:22:58 you've read Mr. Fox's essays on his own ultratechnology site? 09:23:02 yeah, I wish I did 09:23:14 location makes that difficult, since I live in New York state 09:24:21 yeah, i didn't think the introductions on forth on the web weren't that good. when i first started trying to learn forth (about 10 months ago), i didn't really find anything decent on the web. i mostly learned from talking to people on here and then reading Starting Forth and Thinking Forth 09:24:46 yeah, i've read some of the articles on ultratechnology site. i probably should read _all_ the articles, but haven't yet :) 09:25:13 yeah, get Jeff's videos too 09:25:25 or if you have an acceptable connection, just view them online 09:25:33 the videos with chuck moore talking? 09:25:45 aren't the transcriptions good enough ? 09:25:45 but, I run a 33.6K...so I paid for the CDROM's ($10 apiece, which i think is fair) 09:26:02 most of it doesn't have transcriptions 09:26:10 the videos available, I mean 09:26:14 like the stuff on the P21, etc. 09:26:24 you can download the movies.. you could've set up a download of them all one night and leave it downloading for a few days :P 09:26:59 I don't mind contributing to Jeff's funds, though 09:27:06 yeah 09:27:19 he did go to some trouble to set all that stuff up 09:27:28 * futhin nods 09:27:35 it's probably *the* best Forth-related site on the web 09:27:59 at least, I think so 09:28:41 do Forth chips interest you at all? 09:28:42 yeah, i agree.. there isn't very much info on forth out there.. i think that support for forth is kind of lacking.. the forth community could be a lot stronger with better support 09:28:51 oh yes, forth chips interest me a lot! :D 09:28:56 yeah, same =) 09:29:01 machine forth is leet ;) 09:29:15 Jeff's F21 really appeals to me for a lot of my own music projects 09:29:37 if it were possible to pay for another back to prototypes, maybe that might be possible 09:29:47 oh well... 09:29:58 um.. what's the current forth chip right now? 09:30:02 back = batch 09:30:07 the ones most recently produced? 09:30:18 well, the F21 is the latest produced chip that Mr. Moore produced 09:30:36 I don't know what Harris and Patriot and others are doing right now 09:30:44 what were the previous ones? F18? 09:31:30 there have been a lot of designs, but the others wer the P21, ShBoom, a Novix or two, I forget beyond that 09:31:38 at least as far as Mr. Moore's designs 09:31:51 there was a couple designed by the author of that famous book on stack computers 09:32:07 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust54.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:32:12 like SC32, among other things (which a whole slew of Forth embedded boards were designed from) 09:32:16 p21, shboom, novix, i21, F21, x18 09:32:23 x18 is the most recent isn't it.. 09:32:26 howdy i440r! :D 09:32:38 x18 hasn't been produced yet, if I recall 09:33:02 ahh, i21 is the iTv chip...but the P21 is actually available 09:33:17 I had forgotten about the i21 09:33:20 it's part of the "25x microcomputer" but i think he's produced some prototypes.. 09:33:32 I didn't realize that 09:33:53 have you read his talks on slashdot? 09:34:06 only a handful 09:34:55 ouch.. it says "25 prototypes can be obtained from MOSIS for $14,000 with 16 week turn-around." 09:35:05 again, I am not really all that knowledgeable of this stuff 09:35:21 A 7 sq mm die, packaged, will cost about $1 in quantity 1,000,000. Cost per Mip is 0. 09:35:23 but the stuff really does interest me 09:35:31 yeah...the F21 would cost roughly the same 09:35:43 how much are you willing to pay for a forth chip? 09:35:44 especially if you factor what it would cost to repackage it 09:35:58 if I had the money? I'd pay for a new batch of prototypes 09:36:06 no joke 09:36:11 you'd pay 14 grand? 09:36:22 cool :) 09:36:33 for 25 chips, with a few modifications to the design suited for my use? damn straight 09:36:44 and those modifications wouldn't be a big deal at all 09:37:09 ah, what kind of modifications are you thinking of? 09:37:13 currently, there is a glitch which cripples the performance of the chip (because you have to keep nop'ing to prevent the chip from shorting out) 09:37:22 and I'd want to expand the bit resolution of the analogue coprocessor 09:37:52 ah, interesting 09:37:56 um 09:37:59 so I can utilize the full bandwidth of the coprocessor for audio input and output 09:38:04 gotta go for a half an hour 09:38:06 so, those two things would do it 09:38:08 no problem 09:38:09 gotta drive my friend somehwere 09:38:09 as do I 09:38:12 (I have to eat) 09:38:15 ok, bbiab 09:38:20 so, be back in an hour or two 09:38:21 ttyl 09:38:23 hope to see you then =) 09:38:25 take care =) 09:38:27 yup :) 09:45:06 hi 09:45:09 ppl awake :) 09:45:33 Hi 10:04:05 me go do some gun smithing now - bbl 10:04:14 i havent coded a line in 3 days!!! 10:04:18 havent had time lately 10:04:35 mental note - code at least one line today to show your still interested 10:04:36 hehe 10:04:40 bbl :) 10:04:50 --- quit: I440r ("abort" :)"") 10:18:53 --- join: XeF4 (szcdsd@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:19:06 h'lo h'lo 10:19:35 Hi ho! 10:50:05 g'day 10:50:16 how are you, Xe? 10:59:36 well, even when quiet...this channel is a definite improvement over EFnet #Forth =) 11:09:57 --- join: MrGone (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 11:10:11 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 11:12:04 hi 11:12:16 how are you? 11:12:23 im pretty busy 11:12:31 ok 11:12:37 & gettin more & more clever ;) 11:12:37 * MrReach goes to get coffee 11:12:49 http://www.ultratechnology.com/antiansi.htm 11:12:55 ANSI Forth is ANTI Forth 11:12:58 ohoh, sound slike you're about to shoot yourself in the foot 11:13:06 i read it half a day b4 11:13:13 onetom: Jeff Fox is charming, ain't he? =) 11:13:14 Jeff Fox, again, I see 11:13:19 and still wonderin what the hell they r talkin about 11:13:39 when saying: porting ans 4th is a real pain in the ass.. 11:13:51 read what? 11:14:05 goshawk`: im just about 2 know him more 11:14:14 which was hard for you to understand? the standard? the criticism of the standard? 11:14:26 onetom: yeah, he's neat 11:14:37 goshawk`: eg, i plan 2 listen 2 some of his lectures (uknow, from ultratech.com ;) 11:14:51 yeah, I found them enjoyable 11:15:07 and that is not a word I use to describe most lectures =) 11:15:17 :)) 11:16:00 MrReach: i ll show u the most misty & magical part of it 11:16:39 "... the dangerous illusion of portability in ANSI Forth ..." 11:17:43 One of the programmers would claim that 98% of the bugs that we 11:17:43 were working on were simply the result of the illusion of portability 11:17:43 and people's insistence that their code works because it was tested 11:17:44 in the ANSI Forth development environment that they used. 11:17:45 ... 11:18:31 read that section,plz & help me 2 point out what r they talkin about 11:18:31 that part was hard for you to understand? 11:18:36 yes 11:18:48 ok, but I'm not sure I agree with that statement 11:18:51 i cant imagine those "bug" 11:18:56 s 11:19:22 oh! I get it! 11:19:25 if there r any, probably the programmer should know about it in advance 11:19:53 he was working on NASA code at the time, apparently on F21 platform 11:20:11 now, F21 is *WAY* different than most processors 11:20:12 yup 11:20:28 but its a 4th processor 11:20:44 odd bus and address sizes, native forth as the machine code, dual stacks, etc 11:20:45 believe me, it's a long ways even from most so-called Forth chips 11:20:50 just like the ans specification... 11:21:28 SO ... if one develops and test on gforth or win32forth ... and then tries to port to F21 ... guess what? 11:21:37 goshawk`: "it's a long ways" ? in other words? 11:21:37 and having so-called experts come in and "never leave the box" and approach things like they always have is a bad idea 11:21:37 especially when trying to fully exploit untested technology 11:21:46 onetom: simply put, it encourages a different methodology of programming 11:22:21 a lot of these methodologies have existed for awhile now 11:22:25 goshawk`: yeah, i got that part :) 11:22:33 but hardware up until this point hasn't really taken advantage of it 11:22:44 hah, I didn't mean that to sound as dumb as it did 11:22:50 goshawk`: tho, i can really imagine what is the difference 11:23:01 my 2nd problem w this article is the 11:23:14 "programming style", "bad habits" 11:23:28 onetom: does that clear up the portability vagueness for you? 11:24:00 tho, i faintly feel they r right , but im not so experienced 2 prove it 11:25:12 brb 11:29:47 heh, "too slow to measure" ... love that term 11:31:30 ah! here the crux ... "Well if good means having the potential if carefully written to have some portability at the expense of size 11:31:30 and speed then yes ANSI Forth can be good code 11:31:33 " 11:36:57 yeah...sort of a fun essay 11:45:51 * onetom have 2 b away for a bit longer then estimated b4 11:45:59 no problem =) 11:46:14 hmm...guess futhin overshot his mark a little =) 11:46:32 heh 11:46:33 how so? 11:46:34 i'm here ;) 11:46:48 wow =) 11:46:54 nm, then 11:47:00 makes me look bad =) 11:47:02 i played a game then i just got here like 10 mins ago :P 11:47:11 neat...which game? =) 11:48:17 tho, im veryveryvery curious about the previous questions... 11:48:26 which questions? 11:50:57 I can't check, because I messed up my terminal settings, so I can't check the scroll buffer right now 11:51:34 computer game.. subspace 11:51:38 stay away from it 11:51:44 just the anti 4th related 1s 11:51:46 futh: hah, that bad? 11:51:57 naw, a tad addictive ;) 11:52:03 oh, ok =) 11:52:07 onetom: which ones? 11:52:14 (sorry to ask again) 11:52:42 futhin: you asked me before if I thought ANSI was the death of Forth, correct? 11:52:49 or something akin to that, right? 11:52:51 sure 11:52:55 i think it is 11:53:05 I just figured it would be a nice way to get back on track 11:53:12 particularly since I don't think I answered before we had to go 11:53:17 =) 11:53:33 and you agree or disagree? ;) 11:53:44 well, I don't think ANSI itself is the problem 11:53:55 it's the mindset of the people, most of whom support ANSI, that is the problem 11:54:41 there was a transition that I noticed in old copies of "Forth Dimensions", where people began to want a canned and/or do-it-all solution for pretty much everything 11:54:59 onetom: as far as i understand from the articles, ansi forth coders think it is portable when it isn't really _that_ portable, so they fuck up or something like that ;) 11:55:03 much of which was to answer for many so-called "features" offered by the "standard language" of the day 11:56:01 so, I think what ANSI is, is a dilution of many of Forth's principles 11:56:17 to gain wider acceptance among people who would normally give one stink about Forth 11:56:30 nor would even attempt to understand it 11:56:45 because they don't see a need for it 11:57:18 so, I don't think ANSI is the problem as much as the attitude was at the time from the Forth "authorities" who pushed for it 11:58:31 chuck moore thinks it should've been a publication standard rather than an execution standard 11:58:38 because, Fox is sort of right...we are now stick with this unchangeable and basically unaccountable mess...because the companies have made a pull of politics excluding people who choose to "be different" and write their own Forth, rather than buy an 11:58:43 whatever that means.. 11:58:53 expensive "standardized" Forth from people who "know" what Forth is about and what it shoudl be 11:59:08 and not non-professionals 11:59:24 that is true 11:59:29 i think a new standard should be created, or some kind of solution.. 11:59:35 it does tend to stifle creativity 12:00:05 changes by committee tend to spread a concept too thin, so it tends not to be particularly great at anything, and only just OK at everything 12:00:22 making it a behemoth to maintain, annoyingly complex (much much more than it should) 12:00:48 and ultimately, out of the hands of people who can stand back with 20/20 vision (often not the people IN the committee and/or decision making process) 12:01:00 and say "this and that is wrong...and that....and that..." 12:01:13 yup 12:01:36 so yeah...if people come to believe in unmoveable standards, there isn't much one can do 12:01:46 because in these people's eyes, what you do will never be "Forth" 12:01:58 at best, just some kind of "amateur" hack that resembles Forth 12:02:06 regardless of really how good it is 12:02:29 so, the standard was a bad idea, but a standard is nothing if people don't believe in it 12:02:32 so, what would a "publication standard" look like? 12:02:49 I don't quite know what that means 12:03:02 do you have the essay or lecture that statement came from? 12:03:08 neither do I, but it's what Moore was advocating strongly 12:03:31 no offhand, no, but it's at Fox's sight somewhere 12:04:04 it may or may not be related...but he may have said something similiar in regard to communications protocols 12:04:40 where people went to a lot of trouble to define the "implementation" of the protocol, where it really wasn't necessary as long as computers (regardless of platform) understood the protocol 12:05:13 it allows a lot of freedom in the implementation of the protocol, while overall, not generally affecting the protocol whatsoever 12:05:30 and certainly offering the possibility of making the standard far more cross-platform than before 12:05:40 but I think I am paraphrasing very very broadly here 12:08:51 by the way, the link you were looking for... 12:08:57 http://www.ultratechnology.com/moore4th.htm 12:09:53 if I had to take a shot at what he means (a broad guess) 12:10:40 never mind... 12:10:46 I thought I was onto something 12:10:47 =) 12:11:01 * MrReach laughs out loud. 12:15:27 anything? 12:15:28 =) 12:16:06 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 12:16:27 greets, tathi, how goes? 12:16:58 pretty well, how are you? 12:17:04 goshawk: i think you are correct, i think that's what he means.. 12:17:19 --- quit: XeF4 ("Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?") 12:17:39 futhin: what? 12:17:45 about what, rather 12:17:49 goshawk: if all forths across all platforms & operating systems agree on same words and the usage.. then any code is portable.. 12:17:58 or maybe he just means how to write the code... 12:18:03 yes, that is the power of C 12:18:08 maybe he just means as in how the code should be written.. 12:18:35 actually, I think he might be talking about how we should talk about forth words 12:18:48 he tends to speak in pseudo-forth 12:18:53 yeah, he does 12:19:02 and you're expected to write missing words 12:19:05 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 12:19:06 to make his code work 12:19:12 'd day 12:19:18 greetings, Speuler 12:19:20 it's obvious how Forth was invented, it's an extension of his own thought pattern organization 12:19:24 =) 12:19:25 hello mrreach 12:19:48 goshawk`: CM says he "discovered", not invented it 12:20:02 speuler: yeah =) 12:20:34 through self-analysis perhaps 12:20:48 but ultimately he was the one to bang it out for the world to see 12:20:57 and people use the word "invent" for far less, if you ask me 12:20:58 yeah right 12:21:01 so the word is only fitting, if you ask 12:21:08 med 12:21:10 -d 12:21:12 the concept of threaded code existed already by then 12:21:28 so were stacks 12:21:42 i think the pdp 1 came up with stacks in 1961 12:21:57 sure, but from that standpoint, no thoughts are entirely original 12:22:01 all somehow "inspired" 12:22:06 and you're absolutely right 12:22:12 but, people use the word "invent" for far less 12:22:18 so, i think it is only fitting :P 12:22:31 it is not my intention to lessen the achievement of CM of course 12:22:32 inventing is kind of more spontaneous, but when you are organizing your thoughts and streamlining your thought processes, and you develop forth from that, that's kind of "discovering" :) 12:22:49 "incremental invention" is a valid term 12:22:58 futhin: perhaps we should write a standard on that definition =) 12:23:07 indeed. forth was developed over years 12:23:25 sure, but so was the PDP1 and just about everything else 12:23:25 goshawk: how would that standard look ? 12:23:35 futhin: it was a small joke =) 12:23:38 took about 10 years or so to be cast into fig as-a-matter-of-fact-standard 12:24:22 some contructs were added years after the discovery, such as 12:24:33 known as create ... does> today 12:25:03 I agree...from that standpoint almost no one should ever use the word "invent", then 12:25:14 hmm 12:25:29 i think inventing implies a new kind of principle 12:25:50 such as semiconductor transistors 12:26:02 right...and in a sense, most things "invented" are simply rehashed and/or reprocessed ideas 12:26:07 (but the semiconducting effect was discovered) 12:26:18 speuler: even those had a strong fundamental offering from vacuum tubes 12:26:32 applying a common idea in a novel way is the essence of invention 12:26:32 true. that's why i added semiconductor 12:26:33 among numerous other things 12:26:55 MrR: right, and that's why I use the word "invent" 12:27:56 goshawk`: valves. mrreach: is it ok to call "valves" "tubes" ? 12:29:53 --- join: herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 12:29:56 discovering is about the thought process 12:30:02 if they had discovered forth earlier, i'm sure the early computers would have been forth machines :) 12:30:14 yes, ture 12:30:16 true 12:30:16 Speuler: you mean call "tubes" "valves" ??? 12:30:24 yes 12:30:31 Speuler: as far as I know, the British still do 12:30:38 we are tought differently here ... 12:30:58 maybe british influence 12:31:27 *I* don't care for the term "valve", myself ... but my schooling taught me differently 12:31:52 but we also learn to write "colour" rather than "color" 12:31:58 heh 12:32:36 sorry, back 12:32:57 I am not necessarily sure that if Forth had been invented earlier that all machines would have "Forth machines" 12:33:02 C was invented later 12:33:27 and it was pushed through Forth's own popularity because it had the politics of a large-scale and big-resource research laboratory 12:33:28 behind it 12:33:31 along with Unix 12:33:33 and other things 12:33:46 goshawk`: gate count / vacuum tube count of a forth cpu can be pretty low 12:34:10 speuler: right...but if you don't have the big money and politics behind your little creation 12:34:29 it doesn't matter, unless someone really up there in the decision making process says "hey look! we should be using this!" 12:35:15 if you don't have the first or the latter, you don't have much chance 12:35:22 in a sufficiently early stage, you are limited by available technology 12:35:46 no matter how much money is behind it 12:35:48 it's true, but a sufficiently early stage was too early even for the PDP1 12:36:09 PDP1 was semiconductors already 12:36:15 right 12:36:31 i'm not sure about the MARK II though 12:36:44 think it used semiconductors too 12:37:06 the reason Bell Labs could surpass Forth's existing popularity was because they could sell C and Unix at discounted price to all major universities and other respected research centers (and you know much scientists love buying from "their own kind") 12:37:12 part of the popularity of C was because Unix was coded in the dang thing. if Forth had been used as a language in an OS that became popular, then we'd have lots of forth coders and probably forth machines 12:37:17 so, you educate the population on C 12:37:22 and the C mindset 12:37:26 it's hard for them to change 12:37:32 they grow to like their new shoes 12:37:37 and can't imagine the world without it 12:37:55 valdocs was a failure 12:38:05 too slow. too buggy 12:38:07 and Forth was basically nudged out of the market...because Forth Inc. was pretty much the only reasonably sized installation and educator 12:38:10 at the time 12:38:29 epson tried to launch a forth os 12:38:45 but, as you said...there are a lot of things that Unix is simply not very good at 12:38:48 but it never got finished, so they pulled the plug 12:38:48 so we gotta make some good forth operating systems :) 12:38:49 whereas a Forth OS is very good at 12:39:08 yet it did not catch on except with a small number of people who realized that 12:39:39 herk: no one would understand why we would do such a thing if things like DOS, Windows, Linux, Mac OS, etc. already exist 12:39:39 the failure of valdocs may have done considerable damage to the reputation of forth 12:40:13 people understand. Not very many people Like windoze 12:40:14 Speuler: I think the seeds for that damage was already laid shortly the slew of "free Forths" came out 12:40:15 if unix would have been a failure, and not valdocs, everyone might program forth today :) 12:40:33 because people couldn't understand that seeing one particular implementation of Forth in no way can prepare them for another, really 12:40:42 so f79 was an evil thing ? 12:40:50 f83 tried to fix it 12:40:57 speuler: no, not really...I am blaming aspiring user's short-sightedness 12:41:09 * Speuler is not a fan of f79 12:41:28 even then, we had the attack of the illusion of portability 12:41:52 which sells people on the idea that they might save big money because they don't have to rewrite what they had already spent money on 12:42:07 and yet, what does the industry spent the most money on? ports, overhauls, rewrites, etc.? 12:42:19 seems portability is overrated, and yet manages to persist 12:42:19 that may address the lack of a good standard library in forth 12:42:22 .. for forth ... 12:42:30 it's better to keep it simple and re-write from scratch occationally :) 12:42:40 c gets much of its portability form its libs 12:43:29 speuler: even with C code, portability is a real problem 12:43:40 there is no scratch and sniff solution to portability 12:44:07 it's a case by case analysis that carefully tries to evaluate the hardware and make compromises where appropriate so the software can be somehow migrated 12:44:18 you can make parts of your C programs portable pretty easily 12:44:18 goshawk`: i intented to add "c code gets non-portable as soon you don't call lib functions..." 12:44:40 this isn't meant as an attack on you 12:44:46 I am simply just going back and forth 12:45:18 i'm aware of c not being the nonplusultra in terms of portability 12:45:20 I am enjoying this discussion, however inadequate I am in discussing it 12:45:40 pcode was portable 12:45:51 but serious performance penalty 12:46:02 pcode like in ucsd pascal 12:46:10 yeah 12:46:17 java might have picked up on that 12:46:31 but even among pascals, there was serious issues as Turbo Pascal became the runner up in the Pascal competition 12:46:43 TP wasn't pcode 12:46:59 I know, I was just mentioning pascals 12:47:03 I don't know anything about pcode 12:47:04 and i was on the binary compatibility trail 12:47:34 be aware that my background is reasonably limited 12:47:37 san diego university brew that up 12:47:43 t'is quite old 12:47:44 what is it exactly? 12:47:51 intermediate code 12:47:57 compiler > intermediate 12:48:02 the thing is, forth is _way_ more portable than C.. if a new architecture came out a forth for it could be coded instanteously with 5kilobytes. now imagine a forth os that runs ontop of forth. it would be a portable os.. 12:48:09 system specific interpreter interprets intermediate code 12:48:15 a bit like pascal 12:48:19 or smalltalk 12:48:24 sorry, 12:48:30 jave rather than pascal 12:48:32 java 12:48:34 yeah, I knew that much, but wasn't sure what about it made it so portable 12:49:03 the intermediate code, without knowledge of the hardware it runs on 12:49:15 oh, ok 12:49:18 the interpreter is a virtual machine 12:49:27 so you weren't kidding about its relation to Java's byte code 12:49:37 pcode are the opcodes for the virtual machine 12:49:50 was bluddy serious about it 12:50:36 then you're only problem is speed :) 12:50:40 yeah :P 12:50:57 which Forth takes care of in a sense, at least on a genuine Forth chip (because then it is no longer a "virtual machine") 12:51:01 sun IMHO just recycled some ideas, and put a label "java" on the result 12:51:38 the java VM has some resemblance to the forth VM 12:51:39 Speuler: I agree with you, although I wasn't aware of the scope of it until you pointed out pcode 12:51:43 yeah, it does 12:52:01 in fact, Patriot Scientific's line of Forth chips are currently being advertised as "Java chips" 12:52:12 or more correctly, Forth = stack 12:52:13 blah, yeah 12:52:15 true. i got one :) 12:52:17 I would rather see fourth distributed as source or some encoded source like colorforth, that way people can easily write a native forth compiler/interpreter, or a simple threaded one 12:52:30 or one that uses forth hardware 12:52:38 but i liked the novix better 12:52:49 herk: but the problem is that we live in a corporate and canned culture 12:53:00 do-it-yourself has a bad meaning today 12:53:10 psc is ShBoomII based 12:53:24 and the transition in the early 90's shortly before the ratification of the ANSI standard was that 12:53:37 no one wanted to make their own Forth anymor 12:53:44 free, open-source software is getting a better and better reputation by the day 12:53:56 and instead left it to so-called experts on the standard to write a "compliant" (hah!) Forth for the 12:53:59 goshawk`: i tend to disagree 12:54:13 (about the "own forth anymore" thing) 12:54:27 me too 12:54:45 one of the big reasons I want to write my own forth is that I think the ans standard sucks. 12:54:53 most people i brought in contact with forth were quickly considering writing their own interpreter 12:54:54 and I think it's rediculous that they are charging a lot for it. 12:55:09 herk: it took people three or four years of avid anticipation and more than three or four more to realize that, though 12:55:14 (at least, by in large) 12:55:18 * onetom doesnt know what r u all talkin about (cot, i didnt follow it :) BUT 12:55:36 once they get the feel of it, and see that the compiler is actually rather simple 12:55:37 goshawk`: realize what? 12:56:18 herkamire: when i write a forth for a company, i do charge them too :) 12:56:18 that the ANSI standard has had a negative impact on the way Forth is understood and accepted by the general public, and also has serious inherent flaws for programmers 12:56:26 the existance of a program is much more important than its speed or size. 12:56:36 onetom: :) 12:56:44 onetom: not necessarily 12:56:53 please note, I am all for homebrew Forth's 12:56:54 1tom: you may be right with pc hardware 12:57:08 I am just shooting from the hip of what I see in the current Forth scene 12:57:25 so the program creation time is usually has a way higher priority over execution speed or code size 12:57:39 goshawk`: t'is my impression that you're open-minded 12:57:51 and that tends 2 b true w todays computers 12:58:01 I also think that the ANS standard was a bad thing for forth, though I'm not sure it's for the same reasons. 12:58:02 even in the area of microcontrollers 12:58:13 1tom: creation time, yes, that's an important thing too 12:58:24 speuler: I try, but I think I know too little background to sometimes come to correct conclusion 12:59:26 I think colorForth is invigorating, and I am sort of mad at Mr. Moore for not spending more time tailoring it so it more people can enjoy it 12:59:30 1tom: code size frequently played an important role with the projects i worked on 12:59:39 Speuler: i do embedded programming 4 yrs, but it was much more important that the other 2 things 13:00:24 Speuler: currently i also suffer from code size in 1 of my projects, BUT 13:00:33 speuler: you seem to be overall much more up to speed on these things than I am 13:00:35 having development drag on through the years can sometimes make companies a lot of money. 13:00:45 do you mind my probing to ask what your background(s) are? 13:00:48 some microcontroller i worked with had very little memory for the task they were intended for 13:00:50 Speuler: the 4th compiler 1 use is the bottleneck, not the actual device! 13:00:52 but RAM = money 13:01:14 Speuler: i have stuff my algorithm into 2K 13:01:36 often, if not forth, asm would have been the only feasable alternative 13:01:47 but development time ... 13:02:35 Speuler: coz the compiler cant generate larger code, coz it doesnt have code-bank switching support 13:03:29 1tom: what keeps you from adding that to the compiler ? 13:03:59 Speuler: tho, the device has 4k or even 8k code mem, for roughly the same price... 13:04:24 Speuler: i have 2 compilers: 1 is closed source :) 13:04:45 Speuler: the 2nd has only been found recently :) 13:04:48 ah. can't extend it then ? 13:05:12 Speuler: so i will extend that 1, but i have 2 learn about 13:05:22 ok 13:05:24 cross compilation 13:05:29 meta compilation 13:05:33 optimization 13:05:44 and it also takes time.... 13:05:48 that's back to your own compiler 13:05:59 (which i think is a good thing) 13:06:04 but im pretty advanced in these areas yet 13:06:24 advances enough 2 start modifing that compiler, THO!!! 13:06:34 What does: K = i (mod 7) mean? '=' is an equal sign with 3 horizontal bars. 13:06:52 it uses "9 lit," 13:07:03 to cross compile numbers 13:07:04 K becomes rest of expression, i figure 13:07:15 Uhmm... 13:07:20 I think not... 13:07:27 i is the rest 13:07:38 id like it 2 c it crosscompiling numbers automatically 13:07:41 to keep it from being confused with "compare K to rest of expression" 13:07:56 rob_ert: equal with three bars generally means equivalent 13:07:57 I think they mean "K mod 7 = i", but why write it like that? 13:08:04 but ithink i should modify the textinterpreter 4 it, shouldnt i? 13:08:12 tathi: And when is this used? 13:08:20 for selling software the time it takes to develop it to a "working"/"sellable" state is important. It's fine, or even good for the company sometimes if it takes another 10 years to get the program right, because they can sell version upgrades regularly. 13:09:14 doesnt 3 horiz bars mean congruencies? 13:09:28 modulo 7 congruency? 13:09:37 heh 13:09:47 can recall what r those, i dont really remember 13:10:08 congruency is some kind of number theory term 13:10:31 Hehe 13:10:49 * Speuler irb 13:10:49 I'm reading a number theory paper, so I guess you're right ;P 13:10:50 its realted 2 remainder classes 13:11:05 it's also used in geometry 13:11:08 :) thx, rob_ert 13:11:43 but doubt that applies to this case =) 13:12:27 and add to it that i was learnin about it ~7yrs b4, didnt passed the exam of it, and 13:13:19 never used them solving real life problems 13:13:33 Number theory != real life :P 13:13:37 :) 13:14:04 rob_ert: it is, just in a magical way 13:14:46 rob_ert: eg, we r planning 2 design a keyboard replacement human interface w me father 13:15:03 Hehe 13:15:17 "I was raised by a computer - fuck the humans" 13:16:27 keyboard replacement? 13:16:43 Hmm.. 13:16:47 Maybe I misunderstood mr. onetom. 13:17:02 no no 13:17:38 it would allow a simpler and possibly faster character entrance method 13:18:15 i have a disabled friend and we r about 2 make him more effective 13:19:13 I want to be able to talk and have my computer write that down. 13:19:19 and probably some combinatorical calculations 13:19:20 I don't think that works great for programming though. 13:19:41 would require a deeper num. theory knowledge 13:20:19 herkamire: i will inform u about any advancement in this area 13:20:42 we will implement some prototypes within 1-2months 13:21:56 then i will plan 2 start a research on optimal "layouts" 13:22:04 "code allocation" 13:22:17 or call it as u wish 13:22:30 for various purposes 13:23:01 than i plan 2 merge them 2 create a mean solution 13:24:04 gotta go 13:24:09 cul8r 13:24:31 I would love to have something where the computer would guess what you want and you could give it feedback, and it would learn from it's mistakes and figure out how you want it to act as you use it :) 13:24:34 be well, onetom 13:25:20 I haven't figured out where that sort of thing would be usefull besides speech recognition, but hopefully I'll play with it someday. 13:36:53 I think one problem with forth becoming popular is that it's very hard to make money selling small software 13:37:49 --- join: MJS (MJS@208.245.179.174) joined #forth 13:37:54 personally, I don't think people see how Forth fits into the current scene 13:38:02 you can't charge much, and if people really like it they can make a free and/or better one 13:38:21 of C-based operating systems, development toolkits and libraries, and languages heavily influenced by C 13:38:31 --- part: MJS left #forth 13:38:52 and I think that's the problem...they don't want to be "left out of the loop" 13:38:59 and think Forth will bring them just that 13:38:59 go LISP 13:39:02 and RPL 13:39:17 RPL is the way, man! 13:39:37 Fare: Lisp, at least on the Mac, is still considered a "real programming language" 13:39:52 can't say Forth has it so lucky 13:40:01 because it's too low-level 13:40:15 but it isn't really 13:40:20 A high-level FORTH like RPL or POP-11 -- that's the way to go 13:40:29 Forth can be prtty damn low-level, but it can pretty high-level too 13:40:30 yeah, I think for forth to become popular as a desktop system there is going to have to be a lot of free software 13:40:41 goshawk: never seen a proper GC in FORTH 13:40:45 or orthogonal persistence 13:40:53 things that have existed in LISP 13:41:10 FORTH is definitely low-level and staying there 13:41:17 ANSI made it only more so 13:41:31 Postscript, RPL, POP-11 -- here are high-level stack languages 13:41:50 RPL is what got me hooked 13:43:06 well, I am not sure Forth would approach most of problems Postscript and other solutions had in the same way 13:43:18 I am thinking things might come out entirely different 13:43:23 and perhaps that is an impossibility 13:43:29 at least on the PC scene 13:43:45 which is why I think Forth chips are really quite important 13:44:10 because it really offers the possibility to start from scratch without heaving the burdens of so-called "modern luxuries" (which they generally are not) 13:44:24 fare: the ANS standard is dead.. 13:44:37 heh, that's a pretty bold statement 13:44:40 fare: i can see orthogonal persistence being implemented easily in forth.. i don't know about GC 13:45:07 Fare: keep in mind who were the general users of each language traditionally 13:45:16 futhin: if you have orthogonal persistence w/o GC, you'll soon fill your harddisk... 13:45:20 Lisp came from a heavy background of MIT-types 13:45:26 and Xerox types, too 13:45:37 and lots of other guys around the world 13:45:59 and Forth, was basically a language that often fell in the hands of hobbyists and do-it-yourself'ers where programming was not necessarily the top priority or their profession 13:46:15 Fare: right...I am just saying...they are the products of two different worlds 13:47:01 back 13:47:20 goshawk: and we don't have to choose between past worlds 13:47:26 we have to make a new of our own 13:47:49 fare: of course 13:48:12 and to be honest, I think the software is a lot further ahead than the hardware ( at least potentially) 13:48:35 we can be trying to move ourselves along if the industry is happy to feed us crippled or knuckle-dragging hardware 13:48:52 * MrReach laughs 13:48:59 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 13:49:12 howdy folks 13:49:20 hi q< 13:49:32 hi speuler 13:50:10 and for a small resource movement to muscle its way into a big money industry full of bias and preconceptions about the way a computer "of the future" must react 13:50:12 Heyhey 13:50:17 when I was in college, if you had told me that I would have well over 1,000 mips on my desktop, a similar number of FLOPS, 512MB of ram, and 100 gig of hard drive, all for under $2,000 ... I'd have thought you totally insane 13:50:18 it's almost impossible 13:50:21 qless :) 13:50:43 my feeing is if Forth chips don't take off 13:50:58 Forth may very well die in most common computing applications, except for maybe embedded work 13:51:04 don't tell me about crippled hardware, I don't use my current hardware nearly to its capability 13:51:21 MrR: you'd be surprised...I bet your bus is being taxed everyday 13:51:32 Can ((x-1)!+1) mod x = 0 be useful instead of doing a lot of divisions when testing for primes? 13:51:33 which do you think would be an overall better performer? 13:51:40 goshawk`: novix is > 15 years old. didn't "take off" but neither did forth die 13:51:44 a 1.5 GHz processor with a 100 MHz and peripherals that run FAR slower 13:51:45 (it costs me 1.75 every time i get on my bus) 13:52:13 or 800 MHz processor with an 800 MHz bus with peripherals more worth their salt for real-time data transfer 13:52:29 speul: that's true, but at the time, Forth was still not at the end of its rope 13:52:51 speul: there was a LOT more Forth users then, who were active in the development and advocation of Forth 13:53:14 proportionally, there are a lot less Forth users, because the computer industry exploded without Forth 13:53:17 going up with it 13:53:31 in recent years i got more forth work than at that time 13:53:36 my opinion that it is unlikely Forth will find too much more than a cult following 13:53:43 there were 20,000 forth users back then 13:53:49 now there's only 2,000 13:53:51 possibly BECAUSE there are fewer forth programmers ? 13:53:52 (registered with FIG) 13:53:58 and may lose more as all but the most corporate sponsored operating systems 13:53:58 what peripherals do I have complaints about? 13:54:08 are supported on modern hardware 13:54:43 speuler: I don't know the background of your work, but if you are doing embedded work, that is the only place where Forth still has its place 13:54:52 embedded too 13:54:54 and where people seem to agree to keep Forth there 13:55:10 my guess is that forth won't get any more dead than it is now. Forth programmers mostly seem to be pretty serious about forth. I get the impression that a lot of them will be programming in forth untill their teeth fall out (and maybe longer) even if they were the only ones using forth. 13:55:17 futhin: the problem with FIG estimates is that FIG is largely a pawn of Forth Inc. now 13:55:21 actually, often forth hasn't been used before there 13:55:40 herk: that's bad though, because it means there is no new blood either 13:55:45 and we all know what means 13:55:46 is Forth Inc. and evil empire now? 13:55:57 goshawk: no. i'm talking about registered members in FIG 13:56:08 goshawk`: mostly it is bare-metal programming 13:56:12 qless: no, but it does have its handful of "questionable" dealings to secure its future 13:56:13 goshawk: in the heydey it was 20,000 members, and now it is 2,000 members. 13:56:26 gowshawk, oh 13:57:00 including its place on the ANS committee, trashing the reputation of Forth chips and Chuck Moore (and especially his chips), 13:57:11 oh really? 13:57:12 where? 13:57:13 goshawk`: sometimes bare-emulatedmetal :) 13:57:17 where did they trash forth chips ??? 13:57:18 and the overall discouragement of aspiring Forth'ers to write their own Forth 13:57:27 futhin: they do it on c.l.f all the time 13:57:32 oh 13:57:42 who's they? 13:57:44 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting") 13:57:47 rather, who else? 13:58:14 speul: I don't know what you are doing right, but I have gotten more back issues of former lucrative Forth programmers who basically gave up recently after being faithful to Forth for more than 10 or 15 years 13:58:23 issues = issues of Forth Dimensions from 13:58:28 goshawk, that's odd. most people cut their teeth on forth by writing their own forth, but i would happily use swiftforth or swift/x if it wasn't so expensive 13:58:34 futhin: Elizabeth Rather and friends, mainly 13:58:35 goshawk`: that's what i did 15 years ago :) 13:59:05 speuler: I get the feeling you may be one of the lucky ones 13:59:21 qless: you'd be surprised how few people do that now 14:00:03 and as herk said, most of those people are "old timers" so to speak 14:00:16 who got their start when Forth was a little popular than it is now 14:00:19 7-10 years ago 14:00:45 goshawk`: what may help is that a number of past projects where rather successful using forth 14:01:23 with the 2nd-last project it definitely did 14:01:39 my CV was "rerouted" to another department :) 14:02:12 so i was dropped into another project than the one the agency tried to get me in 14:03:59 I think that embeded stuff and people teaching their friends forth will keep it alive. 14:04:32 I got it from a friend and I got tathi interested. 14:04:49 I have every intention of using something forth-like for the rest of my life 14:05:25 unless something unbelieveably better comes along that provides me more control, which I find unlikely, I agree 14:05:50 but, I think it is a bad sign when we think of supporting Forth from how we'll teach it our grandchildren indirectly someday 14:06:09 it basically a subtle sign that we are really losing the battle as we are fighting it now 14:06:25 forth still works well. 14:06:35 and worse yet, the Forth community has diluted itself to a great degree to gain wider acceptance (not just ANS) 14:06:44 i don't think forth needs to compete just for poularity 14:06:49 so, a lot of what Moore advocates may not get through too clearly 14:07:12 I don't care about the battle 14:07:16 speuler: no, but without some level of popularity, you won't be able to keep a Forth job or make money as a Forth programmer 14:07:27 ahh :) 14:07:32 not sure. you're to solve problems 14:07:32 I'm not trying to make money with it :) 14:07:38 if you want to get forth into the mainstream, then you need to make it a language useful for general computing 14:07:38 not to use forth 14:07:41 --- quit: Fare ("wonders if there are still TI Explorers in France...") 14:07:47 if you use forth to solve problems, fine 14:08:07 I think it's fine if ans forth dies and people have to write their own, or come up with a better "standard" 14:08:18 herk: you should care, even if "battle" is a strong word 14:08:18 right now, forth is *NOT* useful as a general computing tool 14:08:24 it's the concept and the potential that have me hooked. 14:08:27 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 14:08:32 wb, Fare 14:08:36 MrR: ina lot of ways, I agree 14:08:39 if an os came out, better than windows and linux, and happened to have been coded in forth, that would be great, people would be able to code in forth better, because the os has already been highly extended 14:08:40 which brings me back to Forth chips 14:08:52 how did I leave? 14:08:57 I do care, I just think it's the wrong battle, or fighing the way people are isn't going to help 14:09:04 something about TI explorers in France, fare 14:09:05 *** Fare has quit IRC ("wonders if there are still TI Explorers in France...") 14:09:05 I don't know 14:09:08 and it can be portable enough to be ported to other architectures, like forth chips 14:09:12 ;) 14:09:14 but maybe Symbolics will send you one =) 14:09:16 looks like you /quit, Fare 14:09:46 yeah, that's more my stratagy, make something awesome, and that will get people interested 14:09:54 and it will get it on their computer so they can mess with it. 14:10:03 general-purpose computing language are not very portable 14:10:16 there's just a *LOT* of stuff to cover 14:10:22 darn 14:10:40 I think if people focus more on Forth chips, Forth will carve a definite lucrative niche for itself, if people realize what we have 14:10:54 example: I never got arout to trying unix/linux untill I installed Mac OS X and there was a terminal and everybody was saying it was "powerful" so I messed with it and learned how to use it. 14:11:09 "dedicated computers", essentially the cost of hardware with the power, flexibility, speed of a general-purpose computer 14:11:12 well i'm more interested in the os than the language.. but a forth os would be great, because that would put more power into the hands of the users. imagine being able to code 2 lines of script-like high-level forth with ease.. (because the vocabulary has been extended to a high-level).. even my grandma will be able to use it ;) 14:11:34 futhin: what difference does it make what lang is used to code the os ? 14:11:35 exactly :) 14:11:45 futhin: the api ? 14:12:06 Speuler: it makes a difference when that language gives you easy access to powerfull features 14:12:10 speuler: forth can be the language, the os, it's reflective, etc.. much better than C 14:12:17 directories, the current directory, system elapsed and user time, windowing widgets, sounds handling, multimedia streams, imagery ... all these things must be addressed in a generalized language ... and forth isn't even close 14:12:29 * qless imagines an os where the line between system space and user space is blurred logically, but distinct at the hardware level 14:12:48 but an os in (almost) any language can be coded to give you easy access ... 14:13:32 if - say - linux would have been written in schnadelwuh, who would notice except the developers ? 14:13:44 yep 14:13:53 that is why APIs are so strict 14:14:16 forth may help debugging and testing the os 14:14:23 I really think the hardware is our problem 14:14:29 but when i want to upgrade my processor to a Athlon K7, should;n't i be able to compile my kernel, graphics infratructure, and applications to take advantage of it IN ONE GO? 14:14:35 but i assume it will be debugged and tested if it hits the market 14:14:54 qless: of course not 14:14:55 and Forth chips, at least theoretically are not only extremely cost effective but offer the promise of customized hardware without answering to a large company who is more interested in controlling all of the rights 14:15:19 heh 14:15:21 mrreach, of course not? why not? 14:15:22 Forth chips have a particular application for people who have poor chip fab plants (like Eastern Europe) 14:15:34 whether it is poor funding, or whatever... 14:15:42 goshawk`: that would hold true for non-forth-cpus (generally open-source cpus) at large 14:15:43 I think it is potentially an equalizer 14:15:46 qless: you keep bringing that up. you must think that a forth os would be easy to use like that ;) 14:16:12 i think any os that could be regenerated in a single command like VMS is worth looking into 14:16:16 isn't a forth interpreter an os in itself ? 14:16:19 speul: but Forth CPU's, particularly Mr. Moore's, offer these capabilities with far less complexity in design AND production 14:16:26 as you had said before 14:16:31 true 14:16:48 so you can stick more cpus on one chip 14:16:50 qless: because one has to ship binaries of some sort, and they are optimised for various type of processors ... it is not unreasonable to expect a compile phase seperate from a run phase, even with forth 14:16:51 which makes it possible for poorly funded plants to produce them in quanity without so many "rejected" chips 14:17:34 mrreach, if you look into your crystal ball, you will see that 'binary-only' distributions are about to become as extinct as pterodactyls 14:17:47 later guys 14:17:50 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 14:18:36 perhaps 14:19:29 well maybe not extinct. but certainly the exception rather than the rule. why would i place my trust in known criminals like the Beast[tm] when i use code that i can examine, change, and know that people i trust have looked over for holes 14:19:46 much forth code has been written for non-open projects 14:19:46 in fact, i'd believe that many applications are with security-sensitive stuff 14:19:46 embargoed the one way or the other 14:19:59 result may be that there's more forth in use and existance than many people know 14:20:02 agreed, Speuler 14:20:05 existence ... 14:20:29 pleasant discussion everyone 14:20:32 ii'm not specifically thinking about forth. as the world becomes more networked, the reluctance of people to use s/w that they don't trust will increase 14:20:33 have to leave for the time being 14:20:34 reason for that may be that a small team, or single programmer, can overview the whole code base 14:20:48 nice meeting you, speuler 14:20:51 =) 14:20:54 no much need for closed-source 3rd party libs 14:21:03 be well, goshawk` 14:21:11 take care, MrR =) 14:21:13 thanks goshawk 14:21:17 =) 14:21:23 good to have you around too 14:21:27 thanks =) 14:21:28 see ya gosahwk 14:21:29 take care 14:21:32 later qless =) 14:22:05 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:22:43 * Speuler has some reasons for that believe :) 14:22:59 about 3rd party libs? 14:23:06 that too, yes. 14:23:21 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52235.vnet.hu) joined #forth 14:23:26 i've seen projects failing because the libs were too buggy 14:23:26 what did you mean? 14:23:28 wb, onetom 14:23:45 that bites 14:23:53 and the programmer somehow didn't grasp that those can be written by themselves 14:23:55 I've come across applications like that 14:24:03 or was considered too much work 14:24:24 so it remained buggy - wasn't the developers fault ... 14:24:28 "can't get there from here." 14:24:34 i think thats why m$ realizes its in so much trouble (e.g. doing month long code reviews) because its come to be common knowledge that insecure software is almost as dangerous as faulty vehicles 14:24:56 didn't they fix all their bugs in january :) 14:24:57 e.g millions if not billions of dollars of damage potential 14:25:09 qless: agreed ... M$ really screwed up it's stance on networking 14:25:26 mrrreach, how so? 14:26:12 the proverbial unreliability of ms code makes it difficult for them to enter markets where solid code is required 14:26:42 M$ has the perspective of "The more open, the better, the less the user has to think about the data, the better" 14:26:42 but what about simple markets like the home user who doesn't want their on-line banking information open for the taking? 14:27:28 mrreach, that's true. they grossly overestimated the potential for network abuse, being newbies in the field really 14:27:30 as a result, I cringe everytime I download an update from M$, because I have no clue what changes it will make 14:27:41 exactly! 14:27:54 (sorry, underestimated) 14:29:05 when i run windoze i set the rocker switch on my dsl bridge to "OFF". period 14:29:46 my router is connected to my dedicated Linux firewall 14:30:00 it works pretty good for preventing outside abuse 14:30:04 --- join: mrbean (~NoBody@d77243.upc-d.chello.nl) joined #forth 14:30:09 there you go. when i get time i'll be doing the same 14:30:28 not good at all in preventing windoze and/or applications from reporting my activities 14:30:58 thats another problem that is harder to exist with readable source 14:32:01 i think the idea of having all the source available, not just for readability, but for instantaneous recompiles is where forth could shine 14:32:26 but it has to be readable too 14:32:38 mrbean... 14:32:45 howdy 14:32:58 you're THE mrbean ? 14:33:00 greets, mrbean 14:33:15 yes, you are :) 14:33:17 Rowan Atkinson 14:33:20 brb 14:33:22 jazeker the mrbean 14:33:23 --- quit: futhin ("bbl") 14:33:26 kijk 14:33:50 was talking , not in channel 14:34:06 Hello there, Mr Bean. 14:34:13 hello ppl 14:34:27 sorry for the dutch language :) 14:34:36 No problem :) 14:34:44 (But don't yell at me for speaking swedish) 14:34:52 lol 14:35:07 was lookin for speuler.. 14:35:10 here 14:35:12 :-) 14:35:26 go to #bean 14:35:34 wanna talk here, or need a priv chan ? 14:35:36 oh 14:35:51 nobody there ... 14:36:03 heh 14:36:06 k 14:36:10 bye ppl 14:36:16 be well, mrbean 14:36:30 the rest is off topic, cu later 14:36:44 mrbean is a forth hacker too btw 14:37:16 did some really good work with mrbean 14:37:39 cool 14:40:42 he bloody improved my primitives 14:40:59 haha! which system? 14:41:02 while doing the rest of the work too :) 14:41:08 H8 14:47:15 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.174.2) joined #forth 15:03:28 --- join: MJS (MJS@208.245.179.174) joined #forth 15:05:27 --- quit: MrReach (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:07:41 --- quit: MJS () 15:13:43 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login3.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:13:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 15:14:25 --- quit: tcn (Client Quit) 15:37:42 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIV-238.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 15:38:03 at last, I have a Linux machine at my (voluntary) workplace =) 15:38:56 :-) 15:40:07 and running it on this 486 has reminded me how profoundly bad the everything-is-ascii-text to be parsed again and again and again by ascii scripts interpreted on the fly 15:40:12 is 15:57:08 --- quit: XeF4 ("reboot") 16:02:38 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIV-238.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 16:03:26 hey xe 16:03:32 wb :) 16:03:59 thanks...I intended to be away longer, but finished things a lot sooner than I expected 16:05:03 Actually, that was for XeF4. But you're welcome back, too :) 16:05:11 hah, sorry =) 16:05:42 :) 16:10:55 --- quit: mrbean (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:10:55 --- quit: Speuler (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:11:52 --- join: mrbean (~NoBody@d77243.upc-d.chello.nl) joined #forth 16:11:52 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 16:21:08 bye ppl 16:21:12 goodnight 16:21:38 --- part: mrbean left #forth 16:33:36 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-149-177.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 16:34:15 Hi 16:51:32 Morning 16:51:51 morning 17:00:00 --- join: tathi (~tathi@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 17:12:25 --- quit: Fare ("0xbed") 17:15:19 --- part: qless left #forth 17:21:57 --- quit: rob_ert ("(:") 18:09:32 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust216.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 18:10:01 I440r!! 18:10:14 :) 18:10:18 howzit going :) 18:10:33 still haven't run isforth, since I only had nasm 0.98 handy, but I now have a linux box at my (voluntary) workplace! 18:11:04 cool :) 18:11:14 ive been doing some gun smithing 18:11:22 we removed a barrel from a mauser 18:11:31 reamed out a new barrel 18:12:09 i took the old barrel and polised it on a polishing wheel while my dad fit the new barrel to the action 18:12:24 then we took the bolt and SWAED OFF the handle to it 18:12:35 mauser bolt handles stick straight out 18:12:51 you saw off the old one and weld on a new one that angles down :) 18:13:52 there are bolt-action mausers? I never knew. 18:14:05 corse there are 18:14:14 what do you think the germans used in ww1 and ww2 18:14:25 automatics ? :P 18:14:29 the basic design on the mauser bolt action hasnt changed since the 1800's 18:14:31 semi-automatic mausers? :) 18:14:37 and its the BEST bolt action ever made 18:15:47 just about every "modern" bolt action rifle is based on the mauser design 18:31:05 must I comment as verbosely as you to contribute code to isforth? :-P 18:33:16 hehehe 18:33:37 no - but i will prolly hack on it to make it more in line with my code :) 18:33:57 btw. isforth actually has a home now. a web page but its blank rite now 18:34:14 i gotta talk to the admin about why shit i put in public.html isnt viewable on the web page hehe 18:36:47 most web directories are public_html 18:36:58 at least on most of the systems I have been on 18:37:10 is it different for yours? 18:37:17 PERKELE nasm 0.98.25 tarball has no prefix directory 18:38:07 when i gave out free web space i didnt allow public_html 18:38:15 because home dirs were NOT world readable 18:38:55 oh, ok...just a thought (however primitive) 18:53:18 no - you were right. most places do use public_html 18:53:35 this one does too but if i put something in there - its not visible on the page :P 18:53:51 strange...it's not Apache's fault? 18:55:24 mite be 18:55:34 dunno - gotta talk to admin :) 18:55:43 :P 18:56:00 I am surprised my admin installed the rc shell for me 18:56:14 hehe 18:56:34 I give them a lot of brownie points for that, especially since they are not that small of a provider at all 18:57:27 my old provider's shell services were a lot smaller (shells were handled by a single machine), and they were really anal-retentive and didn't even seem to pretend you made any difference to them 18:58:01 and most of their programs were broken or crippled in some way (and they patrolled processes, so forget leaving a detached screen overnight...it won't be there when you awake) 18:58:20 * goshawk` really hated them 18:59:11 the new guys seem to care more about their shell services than their mainstream connections (like PPP and ISDN), although those are good, too 18:59:19 which is odd 18:59:47 sorry for ranting...I am just a little relieved that so much of old frustration is over =) 19:00:02 of = of my 19:02:49 :) 19:06:15 anyway! what's new? 19:06:44 (besides having to talk to your administrator) 19:08:02 heh not much been doing some gunsmith work for the past cpl of days 19:08:16 gona be doing some coding later tho 19:08:34 neat, gunsmithing 19:08:58 ya - were waiting on the batf to deliver our FFL :) 19:09:13 yeah, I think I briefly saw some of your discussion about a modified mauser 19:09:20 were gona sporterize mausers - want one ? - a finished one will only cost you $2000 :) 19:09:23 afraid I know very little myself, but it always looked like fun 19:09:45 actually, I almost bought a really nice M16 for about $1600 19:09:50 had all sorts of mods done to it 19:10:24 i got an ar15 that cost that much 19:10:27 I do have the interest, just not enough time (and lately money) 19:10:46 we also got another ar15 thats been totally worked over hehe 19:10:53 that's its larger cousin, correct? 19:10:55 do a web search for "the space gun" :) 19:11:06 no the m16 is the military weapon i believe 19:11:14 the ar-15 is the civilian model 19:11:14 ahh, yes...nm 19:11:23 I've seen a lot of those 19:11:31 just been awhile...and I don't know very much to start with =) 19:11:40 me either hehe 19:11:48 my dad is the expert :) 19:12:58 yeah, the m16 I was looking at was a bastardization of colt and bushmaster parts 19:13:10 sort of the best of what both offered fro what i recalled 19:13:15 of when I did the research at the time 19:13:19 just don't know the details 19:13:32 know = remember 19:14:12 :) 19:14:43 it was in real sharp shape, and my test runs gave me the impression that it didn't jam nearly as much a the better used models I tried 19:14:54 a = as 19:15:11 so, I was sort of tempted to buy it on the spot :P 19:15:32 I may get the opportunity again, because my friend bought it instead and hasn't used it much 19:16:45 do you have any guns you particularly like? 19:17:16 ya 19:17:23 (I don't particularly like the M16, but I figured it was a nice all-around rifle to have, if I were to only have money to buy one gun, which is the case =)) 19:17:29 i like my kimber classic custom 1911 45acp 19:17:37 thats my carry handgun 19:17:43 neat 19:17:46 i like my adl 700 30-06 19:17:55 mind I ask what state you live in? 19:17:56 i like my model 1907 32 savage too 19:18:01 it was made in 1915 19:18:17 and im realy starting to like these mauser bolt actions ehh 19:18:36 yeah, you seemed quite enthusiastic about your modded mausers 19:19:21 nm, your hostname tells all 19:19:35 yeah, in New York state, it's a bitch to get a pistol permit in most areas 19:19:44 not that WTC made that any easier =) 19:19:48 im froom upstate ny 19:19:54 really? 19:19:58 i moved the fuck out of that state about 5 years ago 19:20:01 yes 19:20:03 oh, I was about to say 19:20:04 ! 19:20:11 what part of upstate? 19:20:19 liverpool/syracuse area 19:20:26 born in rot-chester 19:20:44 haha, not fond memories, eh? 19:21:20 I don't mean to poke my nose where it doesn't belong...but what did you particularly hate about it? 19:21:39 no - just do not like the way NY state says "fuck you" to the constitution 19:21:56 I agree 19:22:06 not that the feds are any better in that capacity, lately 19:22:09 =) 19:22:19 the feds dont have jurisdiction 19:22:30 you'd be surprised =) 19:22:30 the federal government has TWO things it controls 19:22:35 1: interstate commerce 19:22:40 2: defense of our borders 19:22:50 what they have done is to classify everything under interstate commerce 19:22:54 in a state of emergency, they have a lot more than that 19:23:36 mmhmm.. and the Constitution(R) defines powers of the Federal govt, not powers of NY 19:23:51 so I don't see that NY says "fuck you" to anything 19:23:52 no 19:23:57 it defines the rights of the people 19:24:17 the right of the people to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS shall NOT be infringed 19:24:57 try get a handgun ANYWHERE in ny state 19:25:05 the funny part is, that most places only teach the first set of amendments (otherwise known as the bill of rights), completely ignoring the slew of other amendments that cancel or decapacitate most if not all of those amendments 19:25:31 yeah, it's virtually impossible 19:25:53 you are lucky if you get as far as just as the legal purchase of a hand gun 19:26:05 never mind the slew of other permits/licenses required to do each and every little thing 19:26:18 besides simply having it locked in a box in your house 19:26:26 in a remote closet 19:26:38 even then, I am sure they could find a way to nail you if they really wanted to 19:26:48 they do it all the time when they have no other charges that stand up in court 19:26:56 it's a beautiful thing =) 19:27:44 although we don't about it in this country, there is only one reason why the second amendment was originally put in place 19:28:09 to allow the people to protect themselves from a government gone awry 19:28:34 ! 19:28:39 thats THE reason for it 19:28:49 not to protect onself from a criminal 19:28:54 right, that's what I am saying 19:28:58 not to protect the country from a forign invader 19:29:02 yeah 19:29:07 but to protect ME from my government 19:29:16 gosh: it's worse than that. most places teach the first 10 ammendments and give at most a cursory glance to articles I-IV.. 19:29:21 definitions have been clouded over by propaganda 19:29:53 xe: my point exactly...people come out of school believing they live in some kind of "free" country 19:30:44 this country is based on the prospect of keeping its populace stupid and uneducated 19:31:09 i440: I can't tell you how relieved I am to here you agree with me on that 19:31:35 i440: I haven't met anyone here who agrees 19:31:50 all I hear is "ahh!! this isn't the 1700's, there's no point in owning a gun!" 19:32:08 "this is a suburb, we have the police here, what do we need guns for?" 19:32:10 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:32:28 gosh: I agree, but it's nearly hopeless for such a revolt to succeed in practice. 19:32:33 you can't tell them because there are police here, that is exactly why you need guns 19:32:36 (which is why I no longer live there) 19:32:42 or one reason, anyway. 19:32:44 xe: yup 19:33:08 even EU is an improvement over the US right now 19:33:23 although I have a feeling they have a firm under the table association with one another 19:33:36 or at least bear some kind of likeness in practice, if not by pure relation 19:34:26 xe: but it's really scary 19:34:38 I'll be honest that this country freaks me out more than ever now 19:35:13 and I'm not the least bit happy about it, but as a non-citizen, I'm the wrong person to visibly/loudly support an anti-EU movement here (Finland) 19:35:36 yeah 19:35:52 I have been seriously considering a move to Europe myself for a bit 19:35:59 I was strongly considering Sweden for awhile 19:36:04 but I am seriously doubting that is a good move 19:36:16 although Sweden will surely be a lucrative industry within the next ten years, imo 19:36:27 particularly for popular music 19:36:41 as if it weren't already now...but I mean Internationally speaking 19:36:59 already we are seeing the tremors of that 19:37:03 here in the US, even 19:37:33 the USA saw tremors of that in the 80s (Roxette, &c) 19:37:50 yeah...I think it is for real this time, though 19:38:04 because it kind of simmered down for awhile 19:38:25 but I am not interested in lucrative industry, or lucrative so long as I'm not starving out in the cold. 19:38:58 that's understandable 19:39:25 I'd just like to make at least some kind of money in what I do to support future endeavors, whatever they may be 19:39:41 so, I am not looking to be rich, but a solid living would be nice for a change 19:40:11 however, I really respect your opinion on that matter 19:42:10 one of the things I'd like to do (no joke) is sell Forth chips to Eastern Europe 19:42:35 I think that would be one hell of an equalizer in bringing those countries "back in the loop" so to speak 19:42:58 give some of the western powers a little bit of a run for their money, so to speak 19:43:10 at least, that's my optimistic view of it =) 19:45:10 blah. introduce Forth chips to Western countries to encourage less dependence upon foreign trade 19:46:07 (fewer components, opportunity to get decent performance from outdated processes) 19:46:20 well, particularly Mr. Moore's chips 19:46:36 those could easily be manufactured with a high yield in poorly funded chip fabs 19:47:30 I really think giving them that kind of technology at that kind of level would be such a booster 19:48:32 I think when you give something like to that to the right people (particularly desperate people) and educate them about it 19:49:23 it severely limits how much you can exploit them in the long run 19:49:47 might even help with the damage to their economy by US-based companies 19:50:43 even if you could convince western powers to use it, I think they would carry on doing what they always do and really use Forth chips primarily for weaponry 19:50:49 which is what they already use them for :P 19:51:09 why make it cheaper to do what is already easy for them? 19:51:40 as it is, a few of Mr. Moore's designs were offered quite a lot of for military usage 19:53:05 I think I am boring or annoying people now 19:53:10 I'll shutup =) 19:54:44 well. it would help if there was more evidence that Moore's chips actually *work* 19:55:05 there is 19:55:15 as it is, it's nearly impossible to get any (except ShBoom-2) of them 19:55:18 P21 was fabbed in 1994 19:55:30 and is available for $25 at ultratechnology.com 19:55:40 if you want the evaluation boards and additional docs, it is a little more 19:55:42 but it's there 19:55:46 and is proven to be quite functional 19:56:29 one of the ideas I had for it took advantage of the fact that it spat video out to TV's (and not monitors)...in fact you can spit out either NTSC or PAL signals for that matter 19:57:05 a VCR-like device, that used a hard disk instead of standard tape 19:57:31 and the fact that it accepted and could playback NTSC or PAL tapes makes worldwide conversion quite easily 19:57:44 (yes, you could even make it support other formats of signals if you wanted to) 19:58:00 I've read though the P21 and F21 specs (even wrote an emulator for the latter, sans video output) 19:58:00 making for a very cost-effective world-wide conversion and general recording unit 19:58:16 but I have not seen the P21 in the Ultratechnology store 19:58:22 ahh, so you know all about it 19:59:10 it's in the section for Offette enterprises (Dr. Ting's stuff) 19:59:16 he's the one who commissioned the production 19:59:54 http://www.ultratechnology.com/p21prod.htm 20:00:06 that is a particular section of his full catalogue just for P21 related stuff 20:00:43 excellent. 20:00:51 did your F21 emulator include support for the analogue coprocessor? 20:00:56 yeah, I thought so too 20:01:30 I would have digged in more with the P21, but I am unfortunately a real cripple with hardware 20:01:52 gosh: no, and the jump address modes were most likely not-quite-right since I didn't have sufficent docs when I wrote it 20:02:03 so, I'd get kind of annoyed I couldn't play with things like the strange random-access "VCR" / universal encoder/devocer 20:02:22 xe: oh...that stinks :P 20:02:28 about the address modes, I mean 20:02:49 the analogue coprocessor is what really interested me about the chip, and even Mr. Fox's own simulator and emulator for the F21 don't support it 20:02:56 shouldn't be hard to fix, but the emulator was written in a single sitting, so it didn't seem worthwhile. 20:03:45 understandable 20:04:31 I was thinking of spending time to modify the F21 emulator to use my RME HammerFall as an analogue coprocessor wired up for sound 20:04:44 but I'd prefer to build a general system in colorForth if I could 20:05:01 but I am waiting for docs on an Athlon or Athlon XP motherboard to be released 20:05:20 what are you planning to do? 20:05:33 Intel has the docs, but the Pentium 4 has some seriously compromised facilities (that were fine in previous chips) to "fix" the cost for their newly introduced features 20:05:57 well, I wanted to build a general-purpose colorForth based performance synthesizer 20:06:36 you too? I thought it was Talia who wanted to build a performance synth in Colorforth 20:07:08 well, it is =) 20:07:47 aha! hello. 20:07:57 indeed...how are you? 20:08:14 alive, apparently 20:08:42 sorry about that, I thought you already knew for some reason 20:08:50 well, that's a start 20:08:58 I should hvae gone to bed hours ago and now I'm just pondering whether to try to keep going until night or sleep now. 20:09:01 I wish I could say I feel alive 20:09:18 that's right...you're quite a bit ahead of me :P 20:09:31 five to seven hours, right? 20:09:39 it's 6:10AM now 20:09:42 don't know how the timezones are laid out there now 20:09:46 seven...cool 20:10:15 xe: are you considering the purchase of a P21? 20:12:07 goshawk: not now. the evaluation kit is too expensive and I wouldn't be able to do much with a naked P21 20:13:04 same here 20:13:10 I am in the same position 20:13:45 I'd take a shot maybe, at least if I decent soldering iron 20:13:53 if I = if I had a 20:13:58 jeez...my typing is appalling lately 20:14:58 overall, I would want to connect the P21 to at least some kind of external storage and have some kind of serial interface (for MIDI) 20:15:08 and the P21 is far less equipped than the F21 is in that regard 20:15:23 so, a lot more design than I am capable of 20:15:47 I'd get as far as powering up the unit with a monitor...woohoo..:P 20:17:03 blah. you have 8-bit paralell i/o at least 20:17:21 ignore the unnecessary pins and you have a midi interface 20:20:00 that's true...but from what I understand, you have to jury-rig your storage to the parallel i/o as well, no? 20:20:18 do keep in mind it has been awhile since I looked at the specs myself 20:20:42 and I spent more time looking over the F21 than the P21 20:20:55 ah right. forgot. 20:21:00 hah 20:21:01 sorry 20:23:10 a 32/40 bit F21 would be nice for cheaper software floating point. 20:23:24 hm.. 20:23:35 didn't mean to make it sound like that 20:23:50 yeah, I agree 20:24:07 sound like what? 20:24:19 "do keep in mind..." 20:24:27 a bit of a lag in the typing buffer here :P 20:25:36 bah. I couldn't hear the patronizing tone of your voice over IRC, so no harm done. 20:26:29 wasn't meant to be patronizing at all, but thanks =) 20:26:36 yeah, 20-bit is a bit rough 20:26:55 a little trickery would be required on the fixed-point front for any kind of serious fidelity 20:27:27 with a rigged analogue processor, I mean 20:28:05 or slow double-number-simulated-float crap that would put the F21's core community into convulsions. 20:28:14 haha =) 20:28:28 (not fixed) 20:28:42 HUM. 20.20 fixed shouldn't be too terrible 20:28:54 since we have the carry bit exposed 20:29:13 * XeF4 has a flash of enlightenment 20:29:16 no, it really shouldn't...but for speed reasons, I'd like to keep it to single cell stack operations 20:29:29 if I can get away with it 20:30:10 besides, if we were to jump the analogue coprocessor from 8 to 20 bits wide (without touching much else), it would be a pretty plausible fix 20:30:32 and we could short four bits on an Emulator that used a modern audio card 20:31:31 because for frequency resolution of each partial (including the fundamental frequency) 20:31:44 double cell (40 bits) would do perfect 20:32:24 what does dynamic range have to do with frequency resolution? 20:33:10 if I were building the synthesizer, I would just attach memory-mapped DACs 20:33:33 the F21 already has one, basically 20:33:55 but one isn't good enough, no matter how fine resolution it has 20:34:43 sure, but you could easily dedicate one F21 to handling a single channel of sound 20:34:51 unless you plan to an F21 per channel 20:34:59 yes, I would 20:35:14 it's a bit crude, but quite efficient 20:35:46 the idea is to have the general-purpose flexibility of a computer at the cost of the hardware 20:35:55 at least one F21 could prove that it could work 20:36:05 *nod* 20:36:07 of the = of 20:37:41 the reality, though, is that we don't have F21s with or without 20-bit DACs 20:38:10 no, which is why I wanted to work on the emulator first...or hack out on the colorForth synthesizer in the meantime 20:38:33 I would pay for a batch of prototypes to be made to fix the coprocessor to 20 bits 20:38:55 (and fix that nasty glitch that stifles the performance of the chip in general) 20:39:18 the thermal buildup glitch? 20:39:23 yup 20:39:42 if you could afford it, I would love to buy one of the prototypes 20:40:18 I'd certainly sell a couple 20:40:23 if I could have them made 20:40:36 if you would part with one at <=$100 20:40:51 hah =) 20:41:39 at 15K US for a batch of 25, that's not exactly an even trade =) 20:41:56 yikes. 20:42:42 ok...14K...but another 1K or so to have them nicely repackaged (you have seen the photos on UltraTechnology) 20:43:03 yeah, it really isn't cheap 20:43:27 but I think its worth it...since I am confident they have something to offer 20:43:37 even though I am surely not the most competent person around (by any means) 20:44:17 which you already know =) 20:45:28 I can get my hands on an F21 for not too terrible a price, but between the glitch and the minimal coprocessor, I am not sure what it would prove beyond a primitive experiment 20:46:06 Fox suggested that there would be some ways to chew a lot of the coprocessors excessive sample rate in exchange for resolution 20:46:21 but that still seems to be not a lot of fun 20:46:50 toggling rapidly between adjacent sample values with the DAC behind a lowpass filter? 20:47:04 glitch ? 20:47:13 xe: perhaps...I really have no idea 20:47:14 a glitch is a comms issue 20:47:29 all intel processors and controlers have a glitch 20:47:49 that seems like the obvious way, but it would also chew the F21's excessive clock cycles :) 20:47:52 xe: if it had been that simple, I would have imagined that he would have dropped a hint 20:48:14 xe: again...not too many of those given the thermal problem we already discussed 20:49:15 overall, an emulation or going cF seems my best bet 20:49:41 which is sad :P 20:50:49 great balls of fire! You have a PC capable of emulating an F21 at live performance synth speeds? 20:51:29 not currently 20:51:49 I mentioned before, I wanted to wait to get a decent motherboard with dev. docs 20:52:02 which was an issue because of the fact that the Pentium 4 was crippled 20:52:07 ah right. sleepy. 20:52:11 no problem 20:52:19 I am completely shot myself 20:52:39 except I have felt that way the last couple of weeks, so I guess its a health thing :P 20:52:58 I may just shoot blind for a motherboard without docs 20:53:07 to use the F21 emulator 20:53:08 and I have to interact with people in a few hours. note that my Finnish deteriorates rapidly under fatigue 20:53:30 I have the HammerFall dev. docs already...so I was hoping it would kind of "fall into place" 20:53:40 xe: ouch, I am sorry to hear that 20:54:47 and without a whole lot of warning :\ Around 20-22hrs uptime, it drops from near fluency to total unintelligibility in a couple of hours 20:55:18 hah =) 20:56:09 well, at least you speak a second language 20:56:17 I don't quite understand why you are interested to emulate at all rather than using the available hardware to its potential 20:57:58 because I am strongly interested in the application of Forth chips to DSP among other things 20:58:52 call it "optimism", if nothing else, that I will eventually have "real" Forth chips to utlize in the future 20:59:48 and my optimism is largely due to the fact that I think that the current hardware suffers so many problems with timing and latency due to OS and application issues 21:00:32 and the fact that above all of this, I want to build tools (no matter how long it takes me) to work exactly the way I want to by designing tools that "fit like a glove" 21:01:12 I honestly think it could be a lot better...both the hardware and software...at least for what I want 21:01:34 blah. if you have a Forth compiler generating all the code in the system you did not hand-code, you can just make all the control flow/loop words check the cycle counter 21:01:44 and the fact that microtonality interests me greatly pretty much throws most useable performance controllers out the window 21:01:58 and if it is > some value, invoke the scheduler 21:02:16 simple, easy low-latency scheduling on i586 21:02:24 timing is a lot poorer than you'd imagine 21:03:01 there is a definite difference...particularly when you started out with dedicated hardware 21:03:14 or worked with synthesizers with pretty exceptional hardware accelerators 21:03:22 (Kyma for example) 21:03:39 so in a sense, I am interested in a very powerful low-cost alternative to what we have now 21:03:46 am = am also 21:04:02 I haven't. But you can certainly get the latency at 44KHz to within a sample 21:04:04 but I think it will offer more than that, too...at least if done within reasonable time frame 21:05:04 that *should* be true, but on most hardware and most OS's it really isn't 21:05:21 the colorForth synthesizer is not really out of whack, because what you are saying is right 21:05:51 gosh: I assumed you would be using colorforth or some other (self-written) native forth 21:06:11 oh, ok...I am too tired...I thought you were referring to an existing platform 21:07:00 but I still think the overall solution is a bit expensive, and I am thinking that there might be a lot of speed tricks when you can calculate using stack operations 21:07:49 I don't understand the last sentence. 21:07:59 don't worry, I don't either 21:08:49 seriously...I mean that I think making some kind of headway with Forth chips might have some kind of serious commercial value 21:09:11 at least in the music industry, or perhaps even some kinds of research 21:09:58 I'd imagine a lot of people interested in bioacoustics would like F21, particularly since it could theoretically produce sounds outside the range of normal hearing 21:10:12 at leas the "modded" one I propose 21:10:40 a resistor dac could theoretically produce sounds outside the range of normal hearing :) 21:11:11 right...but does that resistor DAC have a fully functional "computer" attached to it? 21:11:29 I look at the F21, I think of a fully functional synthesis / digital audio voice card 21:11:30 if you stick it into your PC paralell port, it does 21:11:54 yeah...but there are a lot of irregularities throughout the range of the signal 21:12:21 indeed. 21:12:30 assuming the amplification system and supporting circuitry for F21 are worth its salt, I'm thinking a pretty flat and regular response should be quite possible 21:12:33 "on the cheap" 21:13:12 I wonder how much noise it picks up from the CPU. 21:13:17 basically, what I am saying is imagine a multipurpose audio "computer" that could be sold by the truck load to artists, scientists, etc. 21:13:31 Xe: Jeff says it's pretty good about that 21:13:41 but ultimately, that's another thing one would have to test out 21:15:01 particularly after expanding the resolution 21:17:31 no comment. this thread has gone in circles for too long. 21:17:38 yup 21:17:40 it sure has 21:18:08 I tried to reiterate to tie points in 21:18:13 but it became overly redundant 21:18:17 even I am disgusted by it 21:18:21 but I will know who is responsible if a new Hafler Trio record appears, mysteriously titled 'F21' 21:18:30 hah 21:19:00 mind if I message you briefly? 21:19:04 no 21:22:29 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 22:55:52 g'night everyone 22:56:02 --- quit: goshawk` ("Leaving") 23:06:45 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.04.11