00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.10 00:17:38 --- join: aaronl (~aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 00:23:10 :) 00:48:22 --- quit: I440r ("thanx tcsetattr") 01:30:00 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear") 02:30:24 --- join: Soap- (flop@203-96-105-6.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:30:32 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:03:48 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 07:37:59 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:38:31 --- quit: tathi (Remote closed the connection) 07:47:54 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 09:30:32 --- join: neniu (~masm@217.70.65.181) joined #forth 09:38:18 --- join: XeF4 (rozohw@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:38:26 hallo 09:42:36 Hej :) 10:12:56 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:55:26 --- quit: XeF4 ("ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?") 11:09:23 --- part: neniu left #forth 11:46:44 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 12:02:36 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@panix3.panix.com) joined #forth 12:17:32 Thinking Forth is cool... 12:17:45 I wish Brodie did an ANSI update to "Starting..." 12:18:09 instead of allowing Forth Inc. to release "Forth Programmer's Handbook" 12:18:22 doesn't compare 12:18:41 anyway =) 12:19:21 Hmm 12:19:32 Do you like the ANS standard? 12:19:36 no, not really 12:19:51 but they should have at least written a good book about it =) 12:19:55 * rob_ert is just a beginner, and is allowed to not have any opinion in the question. 12:19:59 Heh 12:20:02 Like Java ;P 12:20:03 of course you are allowed an opinion 12:20:09 use your gut, it tells you a lot 12:20:39 "So many hardcore forth geeks can't be wrong - ANS sucks" ? ;) 12:21:44 well, my sense is that ANS was Forth Inc.'s attempt to "own" Forth and make it resemble a conventional programming language to aid in widespread acceptance of their own products 12:22:01 so, it spreads itself thin by offering too much complexity for too little 12:22:14 but, again, that's just my feeling 12:22:21 I don't know what other so-called "hardware" types say 12:22:27 and I am certainly no expert in any sense of the word 12:23:40 =) 12:23:50 why do you ask about ANS? 12:24:16 I wish Brodie did an ANSI update to "Starting..." 12:24:18 :) 12:24:21 oh, ok =) 12:24:36 I was just curious if there was more behind that question than that 12:24:49 Nah 12:24:56 what Forths do you use (if you mind my asking?) 12:25:06 I was just asking, since nobody seems to like it :) 12:25:28 (of course you may ask such questions ;) - I use gforth. 12:25:33 neat 12:25:47 how do you like it? I've never used it 12:26:14 I find it quite OK, multi-platform, supports alot... 12:26:22 I use it in school even :) 12:26:35 neat 12:26:43 do they teach using that? 12:26:55 Nope... 12:27:01 They teach MS Word 12:27:09 oh, I was a bit surprised to imagine that a school would teach Forth 12:27:10 And C++ for the older kids. 12:27:14 yeah 12:27:15 Yeah 12:27:22 Sounds too good to be true :) 12:27:34 what's funny about the way they teach C++ is that it is basically C with some additional keywords added 12:27:40 no new programming model or anything 12:27:46 which defeats the point of C++, if you ask me 12:27:55 yeah, it does sound way too good to be true =) 12:28:17 Hrm 12:28:47 Some people actually say C++ is "easier" because the I/O syntax with streams looks more readable ;P 12:29:11 it's a little more high-level, if that is what they mean 12:29:14 that's true 12:29:24 at least from what little I know of it 12:29:55 C++ in general, or I/O? 12:30:01 I've never really learnt it... 12:30:09 And I like the printf() family :) 12:30:11 well, both really 12:30:29 because the libraries are the crutch of the language (just like C) 12:30:59 haha, the "printf" family =) 12:31:08 yeah, they phased that out in C++, if I remember 12:31:21 What I like with C/C++ is the nice syntax :) 12:31:22 A 12:31:23 they use the cout instead, if I recall 12:31:30 And ability to more low-level stuff 12:31:37 yeah...it's overall higher-level 12:31:40 However, bit manipulating feels so slumsy. 12:31:47 er 12:31:49 clumsy* 12:31:58 helps keep the propriety of software at an all time high (just like Java) 12:32:03 But that's because I'm used to IA-32 magic ;) 12:32:23 machine language or assembly language? =) 12:32:31 12:33:14 Heh 12:33:23 no, just joking, because last time someone said something like that they were referring to colorForth's lack of an assembler 12:33:38 Nice ;) 12:33:43 so you had to use hex codes to indicate instructions 12:33:48 lol 12:33:51 Nice 12:34:05 it's actually quite terse, but the Intel docs are a little obnoxious 12:34:56 thanksfully colorForth doesn't advocate pages of source like C programmers do =) 12:35:08 thankfully, rather 12:35:59 advocate = ? 12:36:10 I like block "file-systems", but I don't think the idea is very efficient on most typical operating systems 12:36:22 so its really only awesome on standalone Forths 12:36:24 imo 12:36:55 * goshawk` wishes he got the chance to use colorForth a lot more 12:37:01 Hehe 12:37:21 have you used a Forth that used blocks for storage? 12:37:43 Nope. 12:37:54 Remember I've not done much forth coding at all :) 12:38:13 well, it's more dependent on the Forth you use, rather than actually coding 12:38:50 Yah, of course, but I just wanted to point out that a newbie maybe haven't experimented with that many different kinds of firth systems :) 12:39:04 basically, most block-based Forths, instead of a files (which can hold a theoretically limitless sized page of text), it has a huge "array" of 1K blocks 12:39:45 it's very close to reading/writing your storage "raw" 12:39:49 so, it's really simple 12:40:04 so, naturally each block is copyable, but not moveable 12:40:21 you access RAM the same way 12:40:25 How does it do when you want to append data to a file? 12:40:47 well, you basically read and write a set of blocks 12:41:02 Manually? 12:41:21 well, you write a set of Forth words to do that within a program 12:41:29 but when editing source, generally, yes 12:41:40 Ugh :) 12:42:18 * rob_ert leaves his computer... *rob_gone* 12:55:18 goshawk`: hi 12:55:48 hello 12:56:13 how are you? 12:57:20 busy :) 12:57:38 we never met b4, did we? 12:58:09 no, at least I don't think so 12:58:16 pleased to meet you, however 12:58:17 =) 12:59:20 one: so what's new? 13:03:57 well.... 13:04:07 im chattin on a local channel 13:04:22 we r developing a human interface @ the moment 13:04:34 a small keyboard replacement 13:05:44 beside this 13:06:25 im working on a building automation system (light-, infra sensor-, heating control ...) 13:07:24 @ the very moment im exploring TILE forth 13:09:52 it comes w an amazing datamodelling library 13:15:28 wow 13:15:39 sorry for the delay (had to step away for the moment) 13:16:00 what is TILE Forth exactly? 13:16:01 nevemind1, im also on an other channel 13:16:04 I've never even heard of it 13:16:23 aha 13:16:37 now tell me ur relation 2 4th 13:17:13 well, I am interested in pursuing musical applications of Forth 13:17:36 from performance processing systems to software synthesizers, although I haven't spent much (if any) real time with the latter 13:18:57 in a deeper detail? 13:19:14 uve done 4th programming yet 13:19:23 yes, I have... 13:19:25 i think so coz u were talkin about blocks 13:19:59 right now, I am putting together a real-time dynamic microtonal system for normal MIDI controllers 13:20:07 what have u done then yet? 13:20:19 microtonal? 13:20:34 and what environment do u use? 13:20:42 that way, I can take advantage of microtonality with normal MIDI synthesizers, most of which are inherently TET (twelve-tone equal temperament) 13:21:19 this is an extension to previous extensions I wrote in HMSL to add some specialized sequencing/arpeggiation capabilities, among other things 13:21:33 well, my current dawdling is in HMSL 13:21:36 do u know keykit? 13:21:49 but, I wrote a software synthesizer editor or two in the original MacForth 13:22:00 yes, I am vaguely familiar with it 13:22:49 HMSL is an F83 (a bit of a bastardization with F79, however) with OOP extensions (with musical extensions thrown on top of that) 13:23:04 oy c 13:23:09 HMSL is quite a bit faster, and from what I can tell, a lot more flexible than Keykit 13:23:24 but, maybe that is more speculation than fact 13:23:28 does it have a gui? 13:23:39 does it only runs on mac? 13:24:02 HMSL? not much of one...although you can build simple but quite functional guis with the existing extensions and/or mac toolbox 13:24:10 it also has an Amiga version 13:24:37 the Mac version is much stronger and a better performer with MIDI, though 13:24:57 and do u program all these stuff directly on the mac? 13:25:06 dont u use any microcontroller? 13:25:08 s 13:25:09 what do you "directly"? 13:25:20 you = you mean 13:25:21 oh 13:25:32 well, yes...it's a host-dependent Forth 13:25:43 however, I have a lot of interest in Forth chips and colorForth 13:25:58 and have done some minimal embedded development on a synthesizer 13:26:03 sounds great 13:26:25 eg, i made a midi whistle 13:26:26 nothing exceptional, but not too bad a start I guess 13:26:43 neat...a piece of hardware? 13:26:47 yup 13:26:50 neat 13:26:52 monophonic? 13:26:53 its a hack 13:27:01 no 13:27:11 it had separate keys 13:27:25 nice...how many? 13:27:26 it was able 2 recognize the various fingerings 13:27:43 that's cool 13:27:48 hehe, how many.. just 1 prototype 4 fun 13:27:57 no, I mean how many keys? 13:28:31 8keys 13:28:38 neat 13:29:18 yeah, I primarily interested in taking better advantage of keyboard controllers until I can build something a little more elegant for microtonal performance 13:29:41 I see what Tile Forth is 13:29:56 I hadn't heard of it, because maybe unfairly, I had stayed away from C-based Forths 13:30:21 which kind of excludes most Forths found for Linux, among other things 13:30:56 wo wo woo, hold on 13:31:01 whats wrong w tile? 13:31:05 with no intention of meaning any kind of insult to what you are doing 13:31:09 nothing is wrong with TILE 13:31:23 I just had a bias against C-based Forths 13:31:37 so, probably walked right over it in my travels 13:32:01 it's stupid I know 13:32:21 I guess after colorForth I got little edgey towards C 13:33:40 I feel like common computers and most conventions are leaving us with machines that aren't nearly as functional (nor perform as well) as promised 13:34:42 and that for the sake of an insane amount of propriety, we are being locked out of any kind of feature that could actually give us the kind of performance realistic for certain applications 13:35:04 or in my case, music synthesis systems (including their performance "layers") 13:35:18 so, no, nothing is wrong with TILE 13:35:23 and I bet Tile is a damn cool Forth 13:35:49 but, I've always felt C sort of biased the way a Forth operated or at the very least robbed it of any kind of speed 13:35:59 or compactness 13:36:05 like assembler-based Forths 13:36:40 I hope I have not added more insult to what I had said 13:36:41 :P 13:38:10 nah, me back 13:39:13 a realized that when I was seriously investing building a standalone Forth-based music performance synthesizer, that we get a lot less than what we pay for nowadays 13:39:52 we are kind of "hacking" appliances more than any kind of serious "tool", despite the potential performance 13:40:20 the system is hopelessly clogged, with either slow/pokey protocols or proprietary protocols with awful latencies and timing issues out the wazoo 13:40:35 handling all kinds of I/O 13:40:42 so, I suppose I am kind of resentful 13:41:01 especially when I see something like the F21, for a potential tiny fraction of the cost 13:41:27 handling much of the functionality, with many of the drawbacks disappearing as seen with most conventional machines 13:41:44 investing = investigating 13:42:25 aha 13:42:28 because the average computer is kind of awful, for musical applications at least (which is where I feel I am at least slighly less ignorant of than other applications) 13:42:41 and I can't imagine that my only application where one would have this feeling 13:42:42 well... what about designin a Forth OS? 13:42:52 well, that's where colorForth comes in 13:42:57 but, you see, the problem is the hardware 13:43:01 the PC, Mac, or whatever 13:43:11 it's kind of adhoc, when you get down to it 13:43:28 yeah, iknow. pc is the worst of all 13:43:48 and its getting progressively harder to find your way down to the metal, due to proprietary issues left and right and all the way up and all the way down 13:44:04 well, the PC started out somewhat "clean" (if not elegant) 13:44:22 but, backwards compatibility was more important than good design, apparently 13:44:28 end of story 13:44:50 and the mac, while overall a better design, is proprietary from most OS functions on down 13:44:57 *especially* on the newer Power Macs 13:45:14 the 68K macs were much more pleasant to hack from what I can tell 13:45:44 probably u should use bsd on 68k 13:45:49 and the lack of documentation is not very encouraging for people like me, who don't have a lifetime to determine how to build a stable operating system, no matter how minimal 13:46:02 yeah, but the 68K isn't fast enough by any means for any kind of serious software synthesizer 13:46:32 and is just about on par for the performance systems, I mentioned...quite adequate, even with System 7 running 13:46:54 (7.1, at least, doesn't obstruct system performance as later versions do) 13:46:58 lack of docs is not that terrible. and u should use your immagination too :) 13:47:13 * Fare wonders if the archives of the FIRE project are online (mailing list about a forth os) 13:47:18 probably bsd-s r very well documented os-es 13:47:30 well, that is what it is coming down to 13:47:33 Fare: wow, really? 13:47:43 never went anywhere 13:47:46 deconstructing an existing OS, for either PowerPC or 68K 13:47:47 Fare: could u give us an url on it? 13:47:50 but the sources of debates are interesting 13:47:58 well, BSD itself is well documented, but kernel itself often isn't 13:47:59 onetom: I don't know that they are online 13:48:07 they were mostly on my harddisk, but I crashed it 13:48:10 and that stuff is quite complex 13:48:20 I might have most of them in an old tape 13:48:26 but I'm too lazy to fetch it 13:48:34 mainly because of the numerous contributions but numerous people all the while stepping the other author's code 13:48:49 goshawk`: not even netbsd? 13:49:18 netbsd is better, but the main problem I have with the BSD's is that there is not enough stuff up and running (if running at all) on the machines I'd like to actually use 13:49:27 like the IIfx, the more powerful Quadras, etc. 13:49:59 oh, so uve tried netbsd on ur motorola based irons? 13:50:04 the pokier systems (like plain-vanilla Mac II's) or the SE/30 are of course very popular and supported very well 13:50:14 well, netbsd will simply not run on my IIfx 13:50:26 too much hardware deviates to make it even a remote possibility 13:50:31 what r these strange systems? 13:50:43 the Macintosh IIfx 13:50:52 it was the flagship Mac II at the time 13:51:06 oddball serial, SCSI and floppy controllers 13:51:10 i dont know the mac product line. uknow, im a european ;) 13:51:10 among other things =) 13:51:18 sorry about that :P 13:51:24 yeah, it was the fastest Mac II at the time 13:51:32 oyc 13:51:51 * Fare is typing this message on a Mac II fx at this time!!! 13:51:55 40 MHz with a 40 MHz bus (with especially fast RAM, the only machine of its day to use it) 13:52:01 fare: wow...no kidding 13:52:12 goshawk: Linux will run on a IIfx, if you have the right graphic card 13:52:16 I dont :( 13:52:20 (Nubus was 10 MHz, but for non-Nubus stuff, really nice) 13:52:30 The IIfx is the fastest MacII ever 13:52:35 fare: yeah, Linux is really the only choice 13:52:39 and it's not exactly pretty 13:52:50 goshawk: for me, MacOS is the only choice 13:53:02 goshawk: what graphic card are you using? 13:53:18 my IIfx is very unstable 13:53:19 and I am not sure it is worth the effort to expend on it to build a standalone Forth, especially when the goal is to build a composition/performance/synthesizer within one standalone Forth running on a single machine 13:53:29 I wonder if it's interaction with the LispM inside, or bad RAM. 13:53:33 How could I test the RAM? 13:53:33 Fare: an 8-24 13:53:47 * Fare got a Radius ThunderIV 1600 13:53:51 oh, you have a Symbolics inside? 13:53:53 wow 13:53:56 sure 13:54:07 why would I use a IIfx, if not for a Symbolics inside? 13:54:17 http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html 13:54:20 haha, I don't know...maybe you are nuts like I am 13:54:29 goshawk: you have a symbolics, too? 13:54:32 no 13:54:37 I use it for HMSL and MacForth 13:54:49 reminds me I should go and download Mops 13:54:57 what's HMSL? 13:55:03 two of them I have as dedicated real-time MIDI processors for a master keyboard controller apiece 13:55:07 you've heard about symbolics? 13:55:29 goshawk`: theres tathi & herkamire on this channel. they r working on a 4th running on a bare 68k iron, nowdays 13:55:33 it's a Forth with object-oriented extensions (and musical extensions ontop of that) 13:55:38 onetom: wow 13:55:39 * Fare knows the RAM went too hot before I removed the disk from the inside and added a fan 13:55:43 fare: yes, I have 13:55:53 goshawk: where/when/how? 13:55:59 I was briefly considering a Lisp machine forawhile 13:56:06 very recently in fact 13:56:29 because you can buy the stuff reasonably cheaply nowadays from Symbolics second-hand (at least compared to its new price) 13:57:07 yay 13:57:11 fare: do you have a MacIvory I, II or III? 13:57:24 if you know sources of Symbolics hardware, I know interested people 13:57:28 I got a III 13:57:36 I once bought a II, but never saw it 13:57:37 onetom: I'd like to at least know about they are doing 13:57:41 goshawk`: do u know palmos? 13:57:50 don't think there still exist I's around. 13:57:59 onetom: overall, I'd like to make something akin to colorForth for my IIfx'en, but I'd still be interested 13:58:09 goshawk: if you know LISP, why do you use FORTH? ;-> 13:58:11 one: no, I unfortunately don't 13:58:25 goshawk`: tathi's version will also b a colorforth 13:58:27 fare: I don't "know" Lisp, I was just considering using it 13:58:34 goshawk: what about hacking Mops into a colorforth? 13:58:38 onetom: interesting...are they making any kind of headway? 13:58:45 * Fare first learnt RPL 13:58:54 Reverse Polish Lisp from HP28 calculators 13:59:05 hence my love both of FORTH and LISP 13:59:21 fare: because if I recall, Mops is an object-oriented dialect of Forth, with no real semblance to a standalone Forth 13:59:34 so, I am not sure I see that as a viable code base 13:59:40 goshawk`: cant remember the state of their project, coz im not directly interested in it 13:59:51 but, you likely know something I don't 13:59:59 onetom: fascinating 14:00:12 no problem, thanks for letting me know about it 14:00:12 goshawk: I'm not sure what you call "Standalone forth", especially atop a Mac... 14:00:17 goshawk`: coz the only relation i have v motorola processors is that dragonball EZ in my palmtop 14:00:34 fare: well, that's the ugly part...I want to replace Mac OS 14:00:45 oh! 14:00:48 goshawk`: probably they have already managed 2 boot their colorforth 14:00:51 onetom: dragonball is pretty close to 68K, no? 14:00:56 isn't that a lot of trouble for such an old hardware? 14:01:07 goshawk`: yeah, its also a motorola proc 14:01:24 onetom: the problem with Linux is that even if they did support the IIfx, which they do, access to floppy even with regular machines is not supported 14:01:26 goshawk: that said, if you can detach a hardware-specific part from a portable part, it could be very interesting 14:01:29 fare: this is the problem 14:01:39 fare: overall, the hardware *could* be made to work with effort 14:01:50 goshawk`: its id is MC68EZ328 14:01:59 but the IIfx (or any old 68K) mac is too slow for use beyond a performance processor 14:02:08 which so far is quite adequate with HMSL even under Mac OS 14:02:15 so, the need isn't "urgent", so to speak 14:02:19 "beyond a performance processor" ? 14:02:59 fare: oh, a stupid term I use for a dedicated computer or piece of hardware that handles performance data from a MIDI controller and processes it in some way 14:03:29 but midi data is not too fast... 14:03:30 onetom: does dragonball include floating point? 14:03:44 how come u cant process it well in realtime? 14:03:57 onetom: no, it isn't...which is why the IIfx is fine...especially since OS 7.1 and HMSL don't get in the way of the timing at all 14:04:01 goshawk`: lemme chk 14:04:31 onetom: well, you can...my main complaint is with software synthesizers on modern computers 14:04:50 those are really poor for real-time use, if you as 14:04:51 k 14:04:52 me 14:05:10 they don't have to consume so much to get so little, if you had a real OS tailored to the need 14:05:22 and real hardware is the next step 14:05:34 but the current state of things has made a lot more difficult than it should be 14:06:30 fare: I considered a MacIvory for a bit, because despite that the Mac hid a lot of the hardware details from you, it was the only Genera machine made that had a serial port that could reliably operate at MIDI rates 14:06:44 even the XL1200's serial ports were crippled to 19200 baud 14:07:01 which I think kind of bites, since the machine still sells for $3500 US 14:07:07 yup 14:07:16 and it looks like a LOT of fun 14:07:20 you seem to know a lot of details about there machines... 14:07:29 where did you get this data? 14:07:45 I suppose an Alpha with OpenGenera has a fast serial port, but... 14:07:57 I was reading a lot of product literature and talking to one of the sales staff at Symbolics only a couple months ago 14:07:58 goshawk`: cant find any reference 2 floating point, but it seems 2 b a 32bit system 14:08:12 fare: unfortunately, not affordable...nor is Unix particularly hot for what I want 14:08:18 indeed 14:08:22 onetom: yeah, fixed point ought to not be so bad 14:08:23 goshawk`: so u can & should use fixed point on it 14:08:30 onetom: right 14:08:42 btw, do you know about precision soldering? 14:08:51 fare: no, I am afraid I don't 14:08:53 what is it? 14:09:09 I broke a PCMCIA NIC, and wondered if the connection could be soldered back 14:09:30 wow...if it could be done, I know you'd probably want a soldering station (the Weller irons come to mind) 14:09:37 rather than your normal iron from Radio Shack 14:10:08 the circuit boards are probably multi-layer, making it even more tricky 14:10:11 but beyond that, nadda 14:10:32 it's probably not even solderable by hand 14:10:38 given the size 14:10:38 =) 14:10:50 thats right :) 14:11:00 so forget it Fare 14:11:18 do what the industry says you should do, even when it isn't broken 14:11:21 buy a new one 14:11:24 :P 14:11:34 what kind services do u expect 4 ur midi processing stufF? 14:11:44 does it reqs graphics, eg? 14:12:13 onetom: very minimal...when I think of a gui, I still have a habit of thinking of ANSI BBS style graphics 14:12:21 even though that was a bit before my time 14:12:22 it requires filesystem handling, iguess 14:12:28 onetom: block is fine 14:12:29 only the small bit of circuit on plastic that links the main board to the connector is broken 14:12:52 actually, in many ways, blocks would be preferable, because it makes RAM allocation a breeze 14:13:02 and that is nice, because the computer is "dedicated" purpose anyway 14:13:07 but why do u afraid so much of creating a 4th running on the bare iron? 14:13:15 so it doesn't have to share with applications with a memory management I don't know about 14:13:28 onetom: because there is next to NO information on my hardware 14:13:41 download processor datasheets, dig some free os-es 4 macs 14:13:51 even the best support from it (Linux) fails to support the floppy controller 14:13:53 goshawk: can't you just lock a gob of Mac memory, and use it? 14:13:55 like bsd 14:14:06 probably u can use a lot of code from it 14:14:31