00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.09 01:14:33 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:44:56 oh, sux... 05:45:07 tile forth has a very nice 05:45:20 MINIMAL FORTH MACHINE SIMULATOR AND META-COMPILER 06:46:26 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:01:49 woOow, TILE also has a very convenient text-interpreter extension method 07:02:06 u can define recogniser words in it 07:02:43 (infact... recogniZer words :) 07:04:23 so not-found words r passed through recognizers b4 they really considered unknow words 07:05:06 there is a rational number example on it 07:05:11 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:05:18 hi 07:05:25 hi onetom 07:05:50 im just discovering TILE forth & its .... its... 07:06:08 ? :) 07:06:09 unbelivably smart, convenient 07:06:13 ... 07:06:20 and so on :) 07:06:28 cool 07:06:30 [04:03] woOow, TILE also has a very convenient text-interpreter extension method 07:06:30 [04:03] u can define recogniser words in it 07:06:30 [04:03] (infact... recogniZer words :) 07:06:30 [04:05] so not-found words r passed through recognizers b4 they really considered unknow words 07:06:30 [04:06] there is a rational number example on it 07:06:53 neat 07:06:56 -10/90 20/13 r+ z 2! 07:07:19 and those rational number r recognized, by 07:08:00 : ?rational ( str -- [num denom true] or [str false]) ..... ; recognizer 07:08:12 !:) 07:08:48 very cool 07:09:02 whats more floats r also recognized this way 07:09:32 their recognition is not hard wired in2 the default text interpreter 07:10:04 i would always loved 2 c such an implementation 07:10:35 & ive also found a MINIMAL FORTH MACHINE SIMULATOR AND META-COMPILER 07:11:00 yeah, great to be able to extend the forth compiler without tying it down to that particular implementation 07:11:05 realized in 9657 bytes 07:11:12 you've been busy :) 07:11:41 and its built upon 9 primitives 07:11:41 that's fairly minimal 07:11:52 no, not that minimal anyway 07:12:00 what exactly do you mean by meta-compiler? 07:12:14 eg, i dont really use much more when im doing embedded programming 07:12:55 a meta-compiler is a "stuff" that allows u to compile 07:13:11 forth 4 a different system u r working in 07:13:22 ah 07:13:23 (@least, i think so :) 07:13:30 in our case: 07:13:47 u can compile code 4 the simulated machine 07:14:08 I could probably think of several things it _could_ mean, I wanted to know how you were using it :) 07:14:18 look: 07:14:19 \ A simple meta-compiler for the Minimal Forth Machine 07:14:19 minimal 07:14:19 : CREATE ( -- ) create ; 07:14:19 : COMPILE ( -- ) compile compile ; immediate 07:14:19 : DEFINE ( -- ) CREATE ] ; 07:14:20 : END ( -- ) COMPILE EXIT [compile] [ ; immediate 07:14:22 : BLOCK ( n -- ) cells allot ; 07:14:24 : DATA ( -- ) , ; 07:14:53 & l8r u can create definitions like: 07:14:53 DEFINE (?BRANCH) ( bool -- ) 0= DUP R@ @ AND SWAP NOT R> CELL+ AND OR >R END 07:15:43 so how do they manage to get it down to 9 primitives? 07:16:06 i will show u those instructions, right? 07:16:25 sure 07:16:58 (dont expect it an efficient solution, tho! its an implementation-time efficient solution :) 07:17:07 case 07:17:07 decode 1+ of tos 1+ -> tos endof 07:17:07 decode 0= of tos 0= -> tos endof 07:17:07 decode NAND of sp pop tos and not -> tos endof 07:17:07 decode >R of tos rp push sp pop -> tos endof 07:17:08 decode R> of tos sp push rp pop -> tos endof 07:17:10 decode ! of sp pop tos ! sp pop -> tos endof 07:17:12 decode @ of tos @ -> tos endof 07:17:14 decode EXIT of rp pop -> ip endof 07:17:16 decode DUMP of .registers endof 07:17:18 CALL 07:17:20 endcase 07:17:29 thats the kernel of the simulated 4th-processor 07:17:46 and these r the primitives 07:17:56 qt, isnt it? :) 07:18:07 yeah 07:18:55 i will highly recommend TILE 2 every 4th newbies, ithink 07:19:33 and it also has a pile of very useful, wellknow programming constructs, like 07:20:49 queues, lists, semaphores, structures, objects, relations!, bitsets, bitfields, locals, enumerates, exceptions, strings, sets, stacks 07:21:16 and all of these r written in a very accurate & clean way 07:21:42 and theres also documentation AAAND test programs for all of these 07:22:00 excellent 07:22:19 so, i cant understand why is it so forgotten 07:22:31 its a forth-83, anyway 07:22:37 and its written in C 07:22:47 so its very portable 07:23:41 its kernel is designed 2 b multitasking 07:24:08 probably its main drawback is its performance 07:24:40 what is not a real disadvantage in many cases 07:24:55 or icould even say, in most of the cases 07:26:18 yeah, most programs don't even come close to using the amount of processing power available 07:26:29 s/don't/shouldn't/ 07:26:30 :) 07:26:56 yup 07:27:06 aint u interested in TILE now? 07:27:18 or yet :) 07:27:59 think I downloaded it Friday, actually 07:28:12 oohhhohoo, thats great :) 07:28:26 but I've been away for a long weekend, so hadn't had a chance to try it yet :) 07:28:29 u should definitely check it out! :) 07:28:51 yup 07:29:09 well.. inform me plz, when u r just tinkering w it 07:29:38 so lets b able 2 discuss it 2gether! 07:29:42 yeah 07:30:06 well...I should probably do some work... 07:30:42 just as i, but the requirements for my work have leaded me 2 TILE :P 07:30:55 what r U working on? 07:32:48 currently some upgrades to a site we do for Citibank 07:33:01 (tracking prizes for their salespeople) 07:35:11 c 08:54:08 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 08:54:13 'd morning 08:58:02 /topic computer language suxometer : http://home.earthlink.net/~mrob/pub/lang_srom.html 08:58:28 #forth :You need to be a channel operator to do that 08:58:43 baah 09:25:11 --- part: Speuler left #forth 11:25:38 --- join: futhin (~thin@24.64.174.2) joined #forth 12:30:23 quick tell nasa i have found new excellent ablative material! beans! yes! if you microwave beans for 2 minutes the bowl will be hotter than the damn beans! 12:44:41 hehe 12:45:34 artistic concept: beans covering the nasa shuttle! 12:46:08 artistic concept: beans burning off as shuttle reenters the atmosphere! 12:46:24 artistic concept: bean smell covering all of houston for a month! 12:46:40 --- join: Fare (fare@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:10:53 --- quit: Fare (Excess Flood) 13:10:58 --- join: Fare (fare@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:11:14 --- quit: Fare (Excess Flood) 13:15:05 --- join: Fare (fare@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:23:00 wb fare 13:27:51 Hi all :) 13:48:37 futhin: !!!!! 13:48:44 rob_ert: !!!!! 13:48:53 onetom!! 13:50:10 xDDD 13:50:16 1t0m. 13:50:18 ;P 13:50:44 rob_ert: veryfunny veryfunny :P 13:50:58 :DD 13:51:04 oops 13:51:30 Hehe 13:51:52 1t0m is dA l33t b0y!$#!$#! 13:52:10 (I hate people that write like that on their web pages :) 13:52:41 that's cuz you surf on lameass 13 year olds webpages :P 13:53:01 stop hanging around with all the young people, only hang out with 30 year olds ;) 13:53:05 wait 13:53:06 you are 13:53:09 nevermind ;) 13:53:54 Pff! 13:54:09 pffffforth! 13:54:16 I'm so much younger than you, you can't even remember your sixteenth bday! 13:55:02 futhin: have u read the logs? 13:55:56 um, i was grade 9 on my 16th birthday, i ate pizza with two of my friends and played pool.. it was pretty simple 13:56:06 Of his sixteenth birthday? 13:56:06 futhin: Liar. 13:56:06 :P 13:56:19 rob_ert: nope, i'm only 21, i can remember my 16th birthday :) 13:56:24 especially since i was talking about girls 13:56:34 and how this guy was fingering his girlfriend 13:56:45 i _remember_ that! ;) 13:56:47 hehe 13:56:55 onetom: nope, haven't read the logs.. anything interesting happen? :) 13:57:04 * rob_ert hasn't even met a girl, so I guess he won't remember his 16th bday, right? ;PP 13:57:07 onetom: which day (for the logs) 13:57:51 rob_ert: bah, it was some other guy, i didn't have a girlfriend, i was just a loser that had access to the internet thru a vax/vms and couldn't figure out the email so all i had was TELNET!!! and so i TELNETTED TO MUDs!!! 13:57:59 mostly to trekmuse 13:58:13 Hah 13:58:30 I don't hang around with guys like that either, heh ;P 13:59:12 don't worry, i eventually graduated to irc in grade 10 13:59:18 futhin: well, interesing? hmmm i was talkin a bit :) 13:59:39 futhin: todays log (probably) 14:00:02 onetom: you talked about forth os or something leet? :D 14:00:05 futhin: :D IRC 14:00:48 in grade 9 it was a dialup, didn't have ppp, and didn't figure out slirp 14:00:58 * rob_ert laughs :D 14:01:04 futhin: check the log! i wasnt spoken 2 long 14:01:13 onetom: ok ok :P 14:01:21 spoke 14:06:17 onetom: eh.. with 1+, NAND, etc.. you can build the rest of the forth ?? 14:07:09 nah, here am i w my full capatity from now on 14:07:22 futhin: yes, ye ken! :) 14:07:35 (or even oy, ye ken :) 14:08:15 but why r u so .... about it? 14:08:35 machine forth uses only about 13 primitives? 14:09:23 um, machine forth has 43 primitives i believe ... 14:09:32 http://www.colorforth.com/X18.html 14:09:54 its not machine forth but it refers 2 a 4th chip example 14:10:15 it talks about 0x1f instrutcions 14:11:58 how do you make "dup" with those 9 primitives ? 14:12:36 futhin: well? how do u like TILE afterall? 14:12:49 haven't checked it 14:12:53 been busy with other stuff 14:13:00 namely, real estate investment 14:13:02 learning up on that :) 14:13:04 DEFINE DUP ( x -- x x) TEMP ! TEMP @ TEMP @ END 14:13:36 DEFINE [VARIABLE] ( -- addr) R> END 14:13:37 : VARIABLE ( -- addr) CREATE COMPILE [VARIABLE] 1 BLOCK ; 14:14:02 and TEMP is defined by this version of variable 14:14:03 hm 14:14:07 it's interesting :) 14:14:12 i really like the idea of machine forth 14:14:27 extending forth smoothly from the cpu all the way to the gui and higher :) 14:14:28 absolutely! it IS. ;) 14:14:38 (coz forth IS (c) ;) 14:15:02 to infinity & beyond! yess :) 14:16:17 it is elegant 14:16:31 simplifies all the damn layers 14:16:39 no separate language for each level 14:16:53 machine level, assembly level, low-level, high-level, 4th generation level, etc 14:18:26 that's why a forth os would be so cool, especially if it ran a forth cpu :D 14:19:05 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting") 14:35:08 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-85-238.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 14:36:02 Hi 14:36:36 Morning 14:37:02 Good enening. 14:37:06 evening* 15:07:17 --- join: tathi (~tathi@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 15:12:29 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting") 15:13:59 --- quit: rob_ert ("(:") 15:17:25 has anybody noticed that rob_ert's smiley face is backwards? suppose that means he's satanic? :-) 15:18:02 ah good point 15:18:34 i mean i hope he /is/, but i thought i'd better check :-) 15:18:36 you never know, he's young, and them yunguns are crazy! 15:23:33 you are pretty young too 15:23:55 you are somewhere between 32 and 38.. and that's damn young in my book ;) 15:24:45 are you a senior citizen futhin? 15:25:11 i'm outside of time 15:25:21 eternal ;) 15:25:41 "flame"... 15:26:29 * onetom is away 4 work 15:27:23 yeah, what about flame.. time is a fire, consuming you or some yadayada ? 15:27:57 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust96.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 15:28:51 haha! nobody codes Forth anymore! Forth sucks, haha! 15:28:57 real estate investing is where the action is! 15:28:59 ;) 15:29:43 bleh 15:29:57 ./ban #forth futhin 15:29:59 lol 15:30:03 heheh 15:36:33 get the noose boys 15:37:09 bah, i'm kidding 15:37:11 we're aimin' to string somebody up, to-day 15:37:55 forth is the best goddam language in the world, it is perfect, it is beautiful, all it needs is some real support & needs to be extended to a useful level 15:38:20 so get busy, ya bum :-) 15:38:37 heh, i'm working on making me som $$ first :P 15:38:53 --- join: Scuzzy (MJS@208.245.179.164) joined #forth 15:39:08 hello scuzzy 15:39:23 whassup? :) 15:40:16 * qless daisy chains Scuzzy and gives him a unit id of 8 15:40:46 hi scuzzy 15:40:50 you a forth coder ? 15:42:36 not yet. 15:42:43 :) 15:42:54 well as long as you are gona learn hehe 15:43:03 I have the book... 15:43:20 starting forth ? 15:43:52 i440r: there are 20 different forth books out there, you assume too much! ;) 15:43:54 Thinking Forth 15:44:03 ooh, thinking forth is cool 15:44:07 futhin - no. thers only 2 :P 15:44:08 The one in the topic 15:44:24 yup :) 15:44:32 i440r: naw, there's 4 15:45:02 er, about 6 good ones.. starting forth, thinking forth, forth programmer's handbook, mastering forth, and 2 others.. 15:45:17 mastering forth is only good for it's introduction ;) 15:45:54 ... "The Microsoft Guide to Ensureing Forth's Demise"... 15:46:09 lol 15:46:15 microsoft USES forth :P 15:46:25 eh? 15:46:32 does microsoft _even_ know about forth? :) 15:46:34 no, but everything they touch, they wreck 15:52:12 futh add speuler to #forth :P 15:52:12 microsoft doesn't know about forth, so lets not say anything about again, ok? ;) 15:52:24 you can add him yourself.. 15:52:27 eh? 15:52:33 u da boss 15:52:36 me is da coder :P 15:52:39 lol 15:52:55 which reminds me. when do i get my first paycheck ? 15:53:11 as soon as i make money and fly you to calgary 15:53:37 you're moving to calgary, i440r? did you lose a bet too? 15:53:42 apparently calgary is the cleanest city :P 15:53:46 in the world 15:53:51 said that on the radio 15:54:01 dunno what their criteria for selection was tho 15:54:14 lol 15:54:32 the pidgeons here use pooper scoopers, i've heard 15:55:01 they must've been working with a population size, because i thought a smaller city would be cleaner.. 15:55:11 we don't have pidgeons in calgary ;) 15:55:50 not true. i know of at least 3... sold my rolex to one of them 15:55:59 lol 15:58:53 forth... i need to re-read that book... 16:03:10 Scuzzy: hello 16:03:12 --- quit: Scuzzy () 17:03:30 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 17:05:02 --- quit: qless ("changing dimensions") 20:07:20 --- join: edrx (~ochs@Panda.Math.McGill.CA) joined #forth 20:07:45 hi all 20:10:22 howdy edrx 20:10:26 how is it going? :) 20:11:06 ok 20:11:17 I'm implementing a "real forth" on top of Lua now 20:11:28 and you, how are things? 20:12:18 I mean, now it has an array called "mem" on which I can write bytecodes and run them without having to nasm anything 20:15:01 i'm focusing mostly on real estate investing right now :) 20:15:05 learning all about it 20:15:40 oh yeah, you had a project that involved supporting or hiring Forth programmers! :) 20:17:33 yup 20:17:38 gotta get rich for that ;) 20:18:27 i really think that forth is practically the best language out there, so i think that it needs to be supported and extended 20:20:59 as well as the forth community 20:21:12 the stronger the forth community, the more support. the more support, the stronger the forth community is 20:21:12 I was talking to a guy today 20:21:38 he used to use Forth in the DOS days, but he even thought that Forth was dead 20:21:43 and it sort of is 20:21:49 yup 20:22:48 i think it would be _so_ cool to have a forth os running on a forth cpu.. you've got forth from the machine all the way to the gui and beyond :D 20:22:59 one layer of interface 20:23:06 none of the bullshit :) 20:23:22 that means buying new hardware 20:23:37 and learning to use a new system from scratch 20:23:47 this is for people with a lot of time in their hands 20:24:01 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 20:24:04 well, i think that if there was an operating system that was portable across all architectures.. like a forth os.. then it would give a chance for forth cpus or other architecture to shine 20:24:20 it would boost the hardware industry 20:24:24 there is. its called unix 20:24:28 heh 20:24:39 a desktop operating system used by the majority of people 20:24:48 but there are several standalone forths around, and nobody uses them 20:24:57 why do you want more of them? 20:25:02 well theres a desktop video game that doesn't work very well called windoze... 20:25:30 or do you want a Forth machine with enough Windows features to satisfy Joe User? :) 20:25:32 edrx: i don't, i want an _os_ i want a gui, networking, all the features that people expect from their os and more 20:25:41 yes 20:25:45 because it can be extended from there 20:25:50 why do you want a gui? 20:26:15 i'm interested in building a better os, something better than windows & linux/unix.. 20:26:31 a desktop os 20:26:41 not some specialized os that very few use.. 20:27:05 a gui is an integral part of a desktop os, unless you can offer me a better paradigm 20:27:51 think about a forth os 20:27:57 that replaced windows 20:28:00 looks almost like it 20:28:02 imagine that 20:28:04 well, I have never used a desktop OS, I don't have any idea of what is so great about them 20:28:05 now think about the language 20:28:22 my OS is Emacs running on text mode 20:28:24 think about the accessibility of the language, you can go in and change your operating system on the fly 20:28:39 with shells on other VTs 20:28:47 I can't imagine anything better than that 20:28:48 (emacs?) 20:29:23 yup - curiously, it's the thing that I know that follows the spirit of the editor of HS-Forth most closely... 20:29:35 what about Visual Studio ++ 20:29:56 you can edit text, but you can also type a key in a certain line and that line is executed 20:29:56 edrx: most people don't use unix 20:30:06 edrx: and most people prefer gui 20:30:13 futhin: I don't think so 20:30:33 when i say gui i say nothing about the mouse 20:30:44 i prefer using the keyboard over the mouse. i want a gui fully usable by the keyboard 20:30:54 most people prefer a gui.. 20:31:27 futhin: look at how many people are writing free software nowadays (not replaceable programmers working as slaves) and you'll see that the vast majority is using *nix 20:32:06 "those who do not understand unix are doomed to reinvent it, poorly" 20:32:34 lol 20:33:13 but wouldn't it be cool to be able to type 1 command and have all your software recompile for the dual athlon k7's you just installed? all of it. 20:33:17 trust me, i do not want to reinvent unix :P 20:33:37 i read the unix hater's book ;) 20:33:50 um 20:33:56 well, I'm thinking everything from the perspective of myself and of my friends... "future" means "not having money" 20:34:00 programmers are a small part of the population anyways 20:35:17 edrx: who said "future" ? 20:35:33 this is why I'm trying to write a no-fuss Forth that people can play with without having to learn a lot 20:35:37 futhin: "me" :) 20:35:52 you're a forth author, edrx? 20:36:01 not 'eforth'?? 20:36:33 qless: I've been writing some Forth-like languages on top of interpreted glue languages, like Tcl and Lua (plus C) 20:36:38 edrx: i'm more concerned about an operating system rather than about forth. you are the reverse i suppose.. 20:37:01 nifty 20:38:31 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust228.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 20:38:39 hi I440r 20:39:01 i440r, what os do you use the most? 20:39:31 futhin: well, I think I'm concerned with having something with which I have fun right now, instead of several years and several megabucks in the future... 20:40:00 edrx: a "forth" os would have numerous advantages because of the language. but regardless, i think there is a strong need for a better os ( there is always a need for a better mousetrap ;) ) i have many ideas on improvements, etc. 20:40:03 i think it is unquestionable that there is a real need for an os, many people agree :P an os coded in forth would have the added benefit of helping forth & the forth community since forth is an excellent language 20:40:27 edrx!! qmore !!! 20:40:27 s/need for an os/need for a better os 20:41:02 There are plenty of bootable forths, the problem is you can't do much with 'em :/ 20:41:06 yup 20:41:15 it's easy to get forth to boot 20:41:21 sometimes you can't even boot them because they won't run in your machine :) 20:41:34 you have bad experience with colorforth? 20:41:46 somebody else had trouble with colorforth.. 20:41:56 yup - I couldn't get the thing to work 20:42:03 i had trouble understanding WHY hehe 20:42:15 i never downlaoded it or looked at it 20:42:23 I440r: why what? 20:42:30 why color forth 20:42:39 forth with syntax highlighting :P 20:43:15 I feel that ColorForth is still in the stage of "there's a lot of articles about it, so run home and roll your own" 20:43:48 i440r: it's got a bunch of improvements (regardless of the syntax highlighting) 20:44:04 futhin: could you expand on that? 20:44:05 futh actually the syntax highlighting is a good idea 20:44:22 q1: why is it that most forths once they get 'fully featured' are a total disaster in terms of source code complexity 20:44:29 edrx: on the improvements? i don't really recall, there was an article about some of the stuff that he changed.. 20:44:36 improvements in his mind i suppose 20:44:40 maybe not in others 20:44:56 you mean between the latest versions and the previous ones? 20:45:09 no, between regular forth and colorforth 20:45:22 black and white forth? 20:45:25 heh 20:45:28 hehe couldn't resist 20:45:31 oh yeah, about this no doubt 20:45:39 qless: that's a good name :) 20:45:42 hi guys 20:45:45 qless: ya, i know that you can't resist much ;) 20:45:48 hi onetom 20:45:51 hello edrx 20:45:55 heya onetom 20:46:00 never meet ya b4 20:46:44 onetom: I was about to say the same :) well, my home page is at http://angg.twu.net/ - but it's a mess, as it is usual with home pages... 20:46:49 edrx is coding a forth in lua 20:47:05