00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.04 00:59:15 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-127-8.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth 01:13:15 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-148-76.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:16:24 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 02:29:25 --- quit: njd (Remote closed the connection) 02:50:08 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:53:48 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 05:53:54 g'day 05:56:41 hi 06:23:23 Good afternoon :) 06:29:09 bbiab 06:29:15 --- quit: davidw ("ciao") 06:45:51 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:46:40 tathi: hi 07:00:03 --- join: herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:00:49 herkamire :) 07:02:07 hi :) 07:02:30 I find myself boored at work again :) 07:02:36 i'll probably get my forth finished soon at this rate :) 07:02:37 :) 07:15:19 what does WORD return? ( char -- addr u )? 07:23:37 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/gforth.html#Input 07:33:22 thanks 07:37:57 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 11:23:30 --- quit: MrGone ("blah") 13:00:40 --- join: gilbert_bsd (~gilbert@m179.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 13:00:53 greetings 13:15:02 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 13:19:51 Hi Fare and gilbert_bsd. 13:20:23 hi robet 13:42:10 --- quit: gilbert_bsd ("xchat exiting..") 13:54:49 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk23.sat.net) joined #forth 14:17:09 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 14:17:20 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting") 14:17:57 --- quit: herkamire ("Client Exiting") 14:45:40 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@m179.max3.dacor.net) joined #forth 14:45:52 anyone up yet? 14:46:35 Yes. 14:46:40 up to what? 14:46:43 up to evil things? 14:46:43 ah good. 14:46:57 how would I understand hardware better with forth? 14:47:04 or do I have to know the hardware before then? 14:47:58 gilbert: a lot if your hardware is a MuP21 14:48:19 its an AMD 14:48:30 k6 with 500mhz 14:49:37 I suppose you can use the MuP21 emulator :) 14:49:56 you can learn forth w/o knowing much of the hardware until you're ready to learn it 14:52:24 whats the MuP21? 14:54:01 a forth processor 14:54:04 20/21 bit 14:56:15 They never actually went in to production did they? 14:56:26 *shrugs* 14:56:35 yes they did 14:56:46 there are a few ones still being sold 14:56:54 what are they used for? 14:56:55 lots of surplus noone wants -- buy it! 14:56:58 nothing 14:57:04 that's the problem 14:57:06 what can they be used for? 14:59:17 anything 14:59:26 they are general purpose processors 14:59:39 just like an AMD or an Intel? 14:59:42 how fast are they? 15:00:57 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust60.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 15:01:03 I440r :) 15:01:23 gilbert you code asm in bsd ? 15:01:46 I barely do any coding 15:02:00 I don't even know forth that well. 15:02:10 i'm a master at forth 15:02:20 oh master of forth... 15:02:28 aha 15:02:31 how do I learn more about memory on my computer via forth? 15:02:34 well your in the right place to learn :) 15:02:43 learn more about memory ? 15:02:46 gilbert: in bang per transistor, they are WAY faster 15:02:52 hi fare!!! 15:02:56 didnt see you there heh 15:02:57 lol 15:03:01 fare where does one get them at? 15:03:04 in bang per buck, currently, they are not worth much 15:03:23 gilbert: ultratechnology.com ? 15:03:27 something like that 15:03:33 oh okay. 15:03:40 m-i-s-c.net might be the place, too 15:04:27 the original mup21, ten years ago or such, was about the speed of a 486sx25, with less than 20000 transistors, including memory and video and io coprocessors. 15:05:19 so one can build a computer around it no? 15:05:28 they sell evaluation boards 15:05:40 but then again, if you want to program it, you're better using the emulator 15:05:48 I see. 15:06:03 what do you use forth for? 15:06:11 me? nothing currently 15:06:19 what did you use it for? 15:06:40 I plan to use a high-level forth as a virtual machine for an operating system based on high-level programming languages 15:06:56 when isforth is more advanced in its devel ill be writing all kinds of linux apps with it 15:07:17 * Fare believes in HLL, and thinks FORTH is too much of a LLL for most purposes 15:07:47 fare it is low 15:07:54 but when done right its also a hll 15:08:16 its what i would call a broad spectrum level language :) 15:09:00 forth has a strong heart 15:09:06 its alive after all this time 15:09:33 its as old as c is 15:09:45 and its alot better a language 15:09:50 than C? 15:09:54 yes 15:09:56 c is crap 15:10:05 i say that from the bottom of my heart 15:10:06 c is 15:10:07 you can't write executables with it. 15:10:08 CRAP 15:10:12 with what 15:10:15 with forth ? 15:10:15 lol 15:10:18 corse you can 15:10:23 isforth can already turnkey applications 15:10:23 show me... 15:10:34 are you in linux ? 15:10:38 I have TILE and gforth 15:10:40 x86 ? 15:10:40 no freebsd 15:10:42 amd 15:10:47 yes. tile forth and gforth are crap 15:10:52 ah thank you. 15:11:01 so what is ~Crap? 15:11:02 argh isforth doesnt work on fbsd any more :( 15:11:02 but 15:11:08 but ... ? 15:11:09 crap is like shit 15:11:15 tile wont create executables 15:11:19 im not sure if gforth does 15:11:19 and gforth? 15:11:28 but neither of those are real forths in my opinion 15:11:31 they are written in c 15:11:36 whats a real forth ? 15:11:40 forth is written in forth and can compile its own sources 15:11:46 right. 15:11:52 there must be a chicken bit too. 15:11:56 isforths kernel is writen in assembler but there are extensions too 15:12:03 something must lay the first forth egg 15:12:06 so you compile the kernel 15:12:12 have the kernel compile the extensions 15:12:19 and then save out an extended version of itself 15:12:22 isforht already does this 15:12:36 yes - it is a chicken/egg problem 15:12:45 oh well. 15:12:46 i solved that by writing the kernel in nasm assembler 15:12:56 add GC to forth, and you can achieve great things: poplog, postscript, etc. 15:13:09 but when isforth gets its assembler extension ill be able to write a meta compiler 15:13:10 then 15:13:31 ill use the extended kernel to compile the raw kernels sources and output a new raw kernel executable 15:13:35 which i can then extend 15:13:35 but you can't add GC to ANS forth in a non-intrusive way 15:13:41 which is why ans forth sucks 15:13:45 what is GC ? 15:13:45 gc ? 15:13:51 garbage collection 15:13:54 fare ans forth is crap 15:14:02 and garbage collection isnt required in forth 15:14:12 I've seen no FORTH on which you could add GC as an afterthought 15:14:29 which is why I consider FORTH as too low-level 15:14:41 whereas, there have been low-level LISPs w/o GC 15:14:53 or postscript level 1 with a limited GC 15:15:00 or PDF with no GC at all, maybe. 15:15:15 (though PDF is not a full-fledged programming language) 15:15:31 its more a typesetting language isnt it ? 15:15:44 page description format -- the name says it all 15:16:48 portable document format is what i thunked it meant 15:17:00 ow -- maybe you're right 15:17:15 same diff neway 15:17:16 let's ask google 15:17:47 so have any of you ever met chuck more or Elizabeth R? 15:18:03 no 15:18:03 i would love to meet chuck tho 15:18:14 I'm sure he welcomes visitors 15:18:20 have you tried color forth? 15:18:55 well if i was a little close i would go see him heh 15:19:02 ive never tried color forth 15:19:07 dont know much about it 15:19:29 I440r: you are right 15:19:39 where have I heard about page description languages? 15:19:51 Postscript 15:20:09 HP PCL 15:20:31 ok 15:20:45 I must have equated the PD in PDL with the PD in PDF 15:22:19 i need a job so bad :( 15:22:35 I440r: so do I 15:22:40 why? $? or boredom? 15:22:46 fare i thunked you had one 15:22:50 gil both 15:22:57 hey, I haven't finished my speech for the libertarian international conference yet 15:23:02 I440r: long ago 15:23:06 im a consultant software engineer. real time embedded control 15:23:21 ive not had a contract in over 8 months 15:23:42 yeah, I haven't had a contract in some time, too 15:23:57 do contracts pay well when they do come? 15:23:57 fare my dad and i are planning on opening a gun store 15:24:08 looking toward becoming sysadm in a bank or school or company, to survive 15:24:13 we have applied for an ffl for him and we are going to set up a gunsmithing shop 15:24:20 I'd love to be your customer, some day 15:24:26 the combination dril, lathe, milling machine we need will cost 3k 15:24:30 wh'ats an ffl? 15:24:36 federal firearms lisence 15:24:41 its bullshit basicaly 15:24:51 can foreigners who reside in the US buy weapons? 15:24:57 but it lisences us to manufacture firearms and ammo 15:25:02 and trade firearms 15:25:04 yes 15:25:11 in most states 15:25:17 do you know how to make firearms? 15:25:21 I wrote an article in French about RKBA, recently 15:25:28 I think it was pretty compelling 15:25:37 but of course, it won't be published in France, ever 15:25:45 I had it published in Quebec, though 15:26:01 RKBA is SOOOOO impopular in Europe. 15:26:04 it's taboo 15:26:11 rkba? 15:26:19 www.rkba.org 15:26:23 rich king Brandon Adams? 15:26:26 unpopular 15:26:27 the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. 15:26:35 ah 15:26:47 does it not cause more problems than it solves? 15:26:52 i carry my kimber 45 with me everywhere 15:27:01 how often does the need arise to fire at will? 15:27:19 gilbertbsd: depends 15:27:23 thus far. never for me 15:27:30 gilbert: it happens less if you have the right to 15:27:35 why not learn a martial art? 15:27:38 on average guns are used in this country 2 million times a year to prevent crime 15:27:46 gilbert: how often do you have to abjure your religion when religion is free to choose? 15:27:51 gilbert: not often 15:27:57 gilbert: same for weapons. 15:28:02 to prevent crime? 15:28:05 because you're free to use them, you don't have to 15:28:06 what about safety? 15:28:09 yes 15:28:22 gilbert: safety is better if you can defend self 15:28:27 carrying a gun is both a right and a respinsability 15:28:37 households that have guns have more fatal accidents than those that don't. 15:29:10 wrong 15:29:16 true. 15:29:16 they have more fatal *gun* accidents. 15:29:25 not more fatal *accidents* 15:29:25 number of physicials in the us: >700,000 15:29:25 thats what I'm saying. 15:29:50 accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: >120,000 (AMA) 15:30:04 people with electricity have more electricity accidents than people who don't have electricity 15:30:11 accidental deaths per physicial >0.171 (us dep health and human services) 15:30:11 let's ban electricity because of that! 15:30:11 guns are a technological solution to a societal problem... 15:30:23 and as usual, technology giveth as much as it taketh 15:30:26 number of gun ownders in the us >80,000,000 15:30:37 gilbert: gun control is a political non-solution to a societal problem 15:30:39 fare thats not correct .. electricity is a different thing 15:30:44 number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) >1,500 15:30:50 in that spirit, lets ban all motorized vehicles 15:30:51 gilbert: how is it different? 15:30:53 accidental deaths per gun owner 0.0000188 15:31:01 because of the problems they solve 15:31:08 what problem? 15:31:20 guns solve a problem -- crime 15:31:24 providing power to the how. 15:31:30 how? 15:31:36 fare they don't solve the problem of cirm 15:31:41 ooops crime 15:31:42 they help a lot 15:31:45 gilbert yes they do 15:31:46 hi all 15:31:47 gilbert ok 15:31:50 lets say you are a criminal 15:31:54 in countries where they are forbidden, crime is higher 15:31:54 your goig to rob a house 15:31:57 crime has not gone down because gun ownership has increased! 15:32:03 it sure has 15:32:08 one house has a sign on it saying "this house protected by Kimber" 15:32:10 that is simply not true. 15:32:10 a make of guhn 15:32:12 what statistics 15:32:20 th eother one says "BAN GUNS" 15:32:25 which house do you enter to rob ? 15:32:36 do you know that if you shoot a robber with no gun, you get into serious patooty? 15:32:57 i440 you won't know until you enter the house 15:33:06 in general people don't display these things. 15:33:54 gilbert: do you think robbers are encouraged or discouraged, when they know the robbee has a gun or hasn't? 15:34:19 fare, if the robber is serious, he/she won't go alone. 15:34:58 gilbert: you didn't reply 15:35:00 sure you deter petty criminals, but crime has certainly not reduced. 15:35:03 I did. 15:35:14 which raises the risks and costs of robbery: armed or unarmed victims? 15:35:25 fare if I know you have a gun, I will attack with more people. 15:35:44 I440r: how many people know you own a gun? 15:35:45 gilbert: then if it requires 2 times more to attack, I'll have divided crime by 2 15:35:50 me 15:35:51 my dad 15:35:56 and ... who else? 15:36:00 everyone at the gun club i go to hehe 15:36:08 if it requires 10000 times more people to do the same crime, I have divided crime by 10000 15:36:15 do the crimiinals you hope to deter know you have a gun? 15:36:22 of course 15:36:30 or at least, they don't know I don't have one 15:36:40 fare fare fare ... the problem does not get solved because more people have guns. 15:36:41 which is why conceal-carry is good 15:36:52 the problem is not solved if they have less guns 15:36:59 gilbert look at florida 15:37:01 perhaps it might be! 15:37:16 its a classic example of crime going balistic when guns are taken away from common citizens 15:37:16 when people know they won't simply buy guns to reduce crime, 15:37:18 gilbert: can you read french? 15:37:23 they will think through outher solutions. 15:37:26 then when the state enacted a SHALL ISSUE law 15:37:32 fare badly and tortously 15:37:32 crime went almost to 0 15:37:47 the three states in this country with the highest crime rates are the three states that do not allow carry 15:37:57 gilbert: my article has several parts. 15:38:02 part 0: it's a natural right. 15:38:06 the city with the highest crime rate of them all "chicago" has a very string NO GUNS rule 15:38:24 make guns illegal and only law abiding citiznes are disallowed guns 15:38:24 sure it is a natural right. it goes back to the days of man as hunter gatherer 15:38:30 the criminals will STILL carry\ 15:38:39 if you don't have the right to defend yourself, how can you delegate this right to anyone? 15:38:43 yes indeed ... but it is a fallacy that guns are crime stoppers 15:38:52 if you don't have the right to use a gun, how can you delegate this right to anyone? 15:39:19 how can a policeman or a military bear a weapon if you don't have it? 15:39:29 do they have a magic god-given right? 15:39:41 they don't need guns either 15:39:45 and how can you have ANY right if you don't have the right to defend it? 15:39:49 the number of silly mistakes they have made makes it so. 15:40:01 ok, so you're for having no armed policemen and military? 15:40:06 yes. 15:40:14 at least that's consistent 15:40:14 only 10 percent of the soldiers do any shooting 15:40:25 with you that'd be 0 percent 15:40:32 and lots of problems can be solved when you know violence is not an option. 15:40:42 gilbert: now explain that to criminals 15:41:00 what do you mean? 15:41:06 why do criminals come about? 15:41:09 what if a criminal insists in taking your savings, raping your wife, etc? 15:41:17 remember that most crimes are not gun related at all. 15:41:29 are you to say: "please Mr criminal, consider that violence doesn't solve anything"? 15:41:43 gilbert if someone comes up to you and says 15:41:47 give me all your money 15:41:52 are you to fight for your life, like a gentleman? 15:41:54 I will give him what I can. 15:42:03 do you give it to him or take yor gun out and say "have this instead" 15:42:07 gilbert: "tu es un cave" 15:42:19 most crimes stopped with guns are done by BRANDISHING the gun only 15:42:29 if the criminal runs away im not allowed to just shoot him 15:42:30 ok, so if a guy comes and rapes you, do you agree? 15:42:39 nor am i allowed to chase after him and arrest him 15:42:41 no one is gonna rape me. 15:42:42 I440r: you should be able to 15:42:44 I'm a geek :) 15:42:50 but i can show him my gun and say "fuck off" hehe 15:42:55 lol 15:42:57 gilbert: ok, rape your wife, take away your computer 15:43:02 i wish some sexy babe would rape me :P 15:43:09 my computer? they wouldn't recognize it. 15:43:16 I440r: rather some big fat ulgy guy 15:43:21 theyd probably walk over it and pick the non working 486 15:43:35 gilbert: well, they'd take everything you have and leave you naked, then hand it to a reseller 15:43:53 division of labour -- robbers rob, resellers resell 15:44:01 and prospectors prospect 15:44:03 fare only petty crimes involve guns 15:44:10 for real crimes, become an accountant :D 15:44:22 or a dictator! 15:44:35 gilbert: their crime involve guns, too 15:44:40 only here, it's the police's gun 15:44:43 o.O? 15:44:49 and since you gave all the guns to the police, you can't defend 15:45:02 I don't believe in giving the police guns 15:45:09 don't you know the invisible gun of the state? 15:45:14 I don't believe in allowing them to embark on stupid car chases. 15:45:19 the costs are higher than the returns. 15:45:29 anytime government does a thing, it does it with its visible foot 15:45:49 and if you disagree, it will hit you with its invisible gun 15:46:01 gilbert: then don't fund car chases. 15:46:13 gilbert: but why prevent those who believe in them from funding them? 15:46:22 consider this: one should have the right to bare arms, but with the understanding that the total number of crimes one is going to prevent is going to be 4 or 5 at the most in a life time. 15:46:38 if everyone can organize one's defense, it's RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY in defense 15:47:05 gilbert: the very fact that you have the right prevents people from doing crime 15:47:10 Rights are important 15:47:29 remember: gun control law only disarm the victims, not the criminals 15:47:29 I consider a bank failure a crime 15:47:39 depends 15:47:41 or a stock market crash.. 15:47:58 but if some one steals 100 dollars or maybe a 1000 dollars of my money, or property, 15:47:59 it's not a crime if only people who decided to invest are punished by their loss 15:48:02 it's responsibility 15:48:02 that is nothing at all. 15:48:13 if someone breached a contract, he must be held accountable 15:48:44 I think what would help significantly is a more sensible drug policy 15:48:56 if you promised you'd pay $1000, you shouldn't be able to hide behind chapter 11 -- your debt should still run 15:49:07 if it weren't so expensive and difficult to buy drugs, crime might actually go down significantly. 15:49:14 bankruptcy law, corporate laws, etc. are crimes 15:49:20 every law is a crime 15:49:26 fare certain things are unpreventable. 15:49:28 or more exactly, legislation is a crime 15:50:03 gilbert: justice is not about preventing crime, but recognizing Rights. 15:50:21 police is about preventing crime, but it's everyone's own business to fund one's security 15:50:23 correct 15:50:32 aha i got a good url 15:50:33 wait 15:50:49 you're not entitled to other people guaranteeing your security 15:50:54 gilbert read this doccument 15:50:55 ? i am. 15:50:55 but you have the right to organize it. 15:51:01 tell me if you still think the say way after reading it 15:51:11 maybe someone should translate my article to english :) 15:51:13 http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html 15:51:21 I440r: I haven't read it yet 15:51:32 fare that is an excellent article 15:51:34 babelfish 15:51:54 gil if you can read that and still think the same way - then thers no convincing you 15:52:15 I440r: I'm proud of mine, too 15:52:25 I440r: although it's in french :-~ 15:52:40 but then again, there's a cruel lack of litterature in french about RKBA 15:52:49 :) 15:52:50 okay ... 15:52:56 what is the biggest source of crime? 15:53:18 gilbert: injustice 15:53:21 gilbert: government 15:53:28 eg even though the death penalty exists, people still rape and kill 15:53:48