00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.02 00:39:26 --- join: emp (~emp@216.187.134.149) joined #forth 00:46:02 --- part: emp left #forth 01:20:57 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 03:42:45 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-87-31.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 03:45:51 --- quit: Soap- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:57:31 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:38:58 --- join: tathi (~tathi@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:40:18 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust253.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:42:55 Hi 08:43:01 hi!! 08:43:04 just got up :P 08:43:06 heh 08:43:18 At 17:40? :) 08:45:33 11:34 here 08:45:36 am 08:45:37 hehe 08:49:05 :) 08:55:30 well i just got online to check mail and CLF heh 08:55:35 i cant stay online tho 08:55:38 ties up the fone 08:55:43 ill bbl mayber :) 08:55:45 maybe 08:55:51 :) 08:58:54 =) 09:16:06 --- quit: I440r (No route to host) 12:16:48 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 12:18:39 onetom 12:52:22 --- join: XeF4 (mrwvmz@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:52:31 'lo 12:55:27 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@max2-90.dacor.net) joined #forth 12:55:42 hello ? 12:55:47 hello .' 12:55:48 is this *the* forth channel? 12:56:00 as in the language forth? 12:56:01 yes 12:56:05 wooo hooo :D 12:56:08 there is no such thing, but it is the most active these days 12:56:25 XeF4: so this is it :) 12:56:27 is there a primitive set of forth words? 12:56:40 a core set from which all others are derived? 12:56:55 yes, but it varies much from forth to forth 12:56:56 eForth determines such 12:57:17 I keep hearing that forth can be built in forth. 12:57:22 and its a quite stirct set 12:57:29 so I was wondering what that core was that could generate all others. 12:57:35 but there is no standard recommendation on it 12:57:39 and then there is Moore's Machine Forth 12:57:54 which has 27(?) primitives from which all words are derived 12:58:04 yes, & ther is machine 4th 12:58:14 what i still dont know :) 12:58:17 is this the same as color forth? 12:58:24 no 12:58:46 was that the very first forth then? as in 'Then there were 27, and god rested'? 12:58:50 color 4th is the next milestone of chuck 12:59:19 currently the only forth I have (which happens to run on freebsd is gforth 12:59:21 no 12:59:32 ithink it wasnt the 1st one 12:59:37 oh okay. 12:59:52 the 1st 1 must b a "real" vitual machine 13:00:03 virtual 13:00:09 I don't have leo brodies book... are there any good online guides to read through? 13:00:33 u can find some good book 13:00:42 I have thus far managed to understand RPN ... 13:00:50 what discuss 4th from some different view points 13:01:03 no I want to learn the language. 13:01:07 gforth has a tutoral with the info docs. It isn't wonderful, but it is good enough for a start 13:01:09 1 is the tutorial of pForth 13:01:28 I think I've gone through gforths tutorial already. 13:01:51 and this channel says pforth tut is better then the tut of gforth 13:02:02 pforth ... mkay 13:02:05 :) 13:02:05 does it run on freebsd? 13:02:27 hhmmm, dunno 13:02:33 probably its a mac 4th 13:02:41 but it doesnt matter @ all 13:03:17 4thes r highly similar despite the lack of really good standards 13:03:35 there is a good ANS standard no? 13:03:45 personally i recommend "tile" 2 u 13:04:22 its not fast, not maintained anymore, probably, but i think 13:04:37 it has a pretty clean design 13:04:47 has wonderful man pages 13:05:03 so after reading the pforth tutorial I should start writing forth? 13:05:09 delivers useful tools @ ur hand 13:05:41 and its all written in C - afaik - so it should run under bsd 13:06:15 what do you use forth for? 13:06:24 personally i havent read pforth tutorial, but ithink, yes, u can try coding after reading it 13:06:51 okay I'm halfway through it . 13:07:02 but i highly recommend u the "Forth: An Underview by Peter Knaggs" 13:07:13 its not a tutorial is it? 13:07:28 it shows u the very simple internals of a 4th environment 13:08:00 and it should help change ur way of thinking about programming 13:08:47 and after it u can write code what is close enough 2 the philosophy of forth 13:08:58 and its very important 13:09:10 its very different from other languages 13:09:13 so the pforth tutorial and forth underview? 13:09:23 yeah I can do RPN and I can define a few words in forth 13:09:35 probably... both, in this order :) 13:09:56 the underview is not too long 13:10:03 I've never really programmed but I keep hearing forth has an easy syntax and is easy to learn once you are comfortable with RPN 13:10:19 thats why I wanted to know what the 'core primitives' of forth were. 13:10:21 an the pforth tut is similar 2 the 1 in the beginning of the gforth doc 13:11:17 how did you learn forth? 13:11:35 :) thats a uniqe story 13:11:47 so i wont start telling it now 13:11:50 I have time if you do. 13:12:00 and i use 4th 4 embedded programming 13:12:17 who needs embedded programming? 13:12:24 im doing a building control app in it 13:12:43 this is my 4th serious 4th app 13:12:44 so something like an elevator, temperature, alarm etc? 13:13:26 ive also written a midi-flute control program in 4th 13:13:35 yes, exactly 13:13:48 and controling the lights and swithes 13:13:51 how long did it take you to learn forth? 13:13:54 and lil keyboards 13:13:55 5 years? 13:14:13 u ask the wrong man, i still dont really know 4th 13:14:26 is use a very basic subset of it, coz 13:14:38 writing programs 4th microcontroller 13:14:49 I see. 13:15:02 doesnt allow me 2 use all its features 13:15:13 i use it actually, instead of assembly 13:15:52 an every 4th program i write can easily b transformed into assembly 13:15:59 really? 13:16:08 how would you transform 2 2 + to assembly? 13:16:16 and it is one of the strength of 4th 13:16:43 --- join: herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:16:49 decf FSR,1 13:17:00 movwf INDF 13:17:06 movlw 2 13:17:09 decf FSR,1 13:17:11 movwf INDF 13:17:12 movlw 2 13:17:17 call plus 13:17:21 PICs onetom? 13:17:21 thats it 13:17:24 thats not terribly easy. 13:17:25 yup :) 13:17:28 it takes about an hour to get the basics of forth 13:17:38 believe me, it is 13:17:44 herkamire: thats what it seems like 13:17:56 but what do I use to get to that one hour? 13:18:16 is the pforth tutorial adequate? 13:18:17 it helps to have someone over your shoulder who knows forth :) :) 13:18:31 yeah. 13:18:32 u can program such a compiler in a simple macro language 13:18:41 I haven't seen the pforth tutorail 13:18:53 herkamire: how did you learn forth? 13:19:04 I think it was "real time forth" that got me started. it's on the net somewhere, in PDF or something 13:19:26 * qless wakes up and mentions the tutorial in f-pc (msdos) 13:19:36 f-pc? 13:19:44 I am on a freebsd system 13:19:47 Dos is a big no no :D 13:19:58 gilbertbsd: yes, there r plenty of 4th implementations out there :) 13:20:13 yes indeedy. but the text files in the f-pc .zip file are a good tutorial 13:20:15 hum. is the M68k Bigforth public? 13:20:42 but I already have a forth implementation in gforth. 13:20:51 gilbertbsd: would u try 2 compile TILE for me under bsd? 13:20:55 this is what I need though: a clear intro to it, with steps as to what to do next. 13:21:01 TILE? 13:21:02 whats tile? 13:21:09 XeF4: what do u mean by public? 13:21:24 one: I mean is it freely available? 13:21:29 TILE is Threaded Interpreted Language Environment 13:21:44 and where is it at? 13:21:44 XeF4: the binary or the srces? 13:21:48 is it written in C? 13:21:53 eg, @ me ;) 13:21:57 yes 13:22:00 so its slow 13:22:11 but its beautiful 13:22:12 btw herkamire what did you read after "real time forth"? 13:22:20 and probably hihgly portable 13:23:45 gilbertbsd: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz 13:23:53 -rw-rw-r-- 1 tom tom 149007 DEC 5 18:31 tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz 13:23:57 its that small 13:24:45 you call that small? :P 13:24:48 okay hold on lemme see what I can do. 13:24:58 one: both. 13:25:40 tathi: :))) 13:26:22 so can I gain access to X via forth? 13:26:25 tathi: it has many tools and documentation for everything 13:26:56 gilbertbsd: well, i u do some hooks in its srces, yes :) 13:27:59 its not downloading 13:28:00 but personally i used tcl i conjunction w 4th 13:28:01 its just sitting there. 13:28:09 hmmm 13:28:13 can u ping me? 13:28:34 I just did. 13:28:36 nooo :) 13:28:44 --- Ping reply from onetom : 0.7 second(s) 13:28:44 ping hermantom.homeip.net 13:29:10 tho, its should b the same machine 13:29:17 yeah its working now 13:29:29 23 packets transmitted, 18 packets received, 21% packet loss 13:29:29 round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 430.123/1348.834/4460.221/1471.803 ms 13:29:31 ive detected it :) 13:29:36 what is it? 13:29:37 so 13:29:44 what is what? 13:29:52 the ping summary 13:30:06 gilbertbsd: nothing much really, I just experimented and mostly only found useful information in the ANS draft standard for forth. 13:30:51 gilbertbsd: umean, why r there so many packets lost? 13:31:05 Its hard to believe that after reading just one tutorial, I should be ready to implement various algorithms 13:31:08 where are the tomes? 13:31:13 I haven't done a heck of a lot in forth. I know the basics, and I'm more interested in making my own forth 13:31:19 onetom no, is it working now? 13:31:29 63.171.164.90 - - [02/Apr/2002:23:30:09 +0200] "GET /~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz HTTP/1.1" 200 27146 13:31:41 this seems a faulty transfer 2 me.. 13:31:51 gilbertbsd: what is working? 13:31:55 the basics are really enough to do anything. 13:32:06 onetom initially it wasn't pinging. 13:32:30 herkamire how long have you being dabbling in forth for? 13:32:40 gilbertbsd: "where are the tomes?" hey, its not java :))) 13:33:04 gilbertbsd: ~ 2 years I think 13:33:04 gilbertbsd: and i dont know what was wrong @ the 1st time 13:33:19 I see... 13:33:46 onetom: if he was getting 21% packet loss that might have caused problems... 13:33:53 gilbertbsd: im also working on my own forth. or even.. on a Forth OS 13:34:02 cause I'm almost done reading the pforth manual and I don't know whether or not thats really all there is to it. 13:34:30 and if its that simple, it seems even simpler than python. 13:34:31 gilbertbsd: consider 4th as a philosophy 13:34:45 gilbertbsd: its mainly not a mere language 13:34:47 and whats the philosophy? minimalism? 13:35:08 gilbertbsd: its rather a way of thingink 13:35:09 g 13:35:11 okay ... here is the thing. I can do RPN. is that a good thing? 13:35:27 no, thats not true 13:35:38 u *cant do* RPN 13:35:47 ? 13:35:49 rpn arithmetics 13:35:53 I understand how it works 13:35:55 its just seems as if it was rpn 13:36:02 and I understand how to transform from infix to rpn 13:36:24 it look like rpn becuse 4th is a stack machine 13:36:52 okay can anyone clearly tell me what to do/read after the pforth tutorial? 13:37:01 go write something in forth :) 13:37:12 hmmm is that really it? 13:37:15 tathi: i mean, it wast designed as: "u should do arithmetics in forth in an rpn format" 13:37:23 onetom 13:37:26 ah 13:37:50 gilbertbsd: i definitely recommend that underview 2 read 13:37:51 gilbertbsd, subscribe to comp.lang.forth and read the kind of things that other people are using 4th for. danger: steep learning curves here 13:38:02 gilbertbsd: b4 doing too much in 4th 13:38:31 ... but much more fun than reading dry tutorials 13:38:32 I don't intend to control missiles with it. I just want a language with which to implement algorithms with 13:39:19 gilbertbsd: aha, then mind that 4th is *just* a kind of assembly 13:39:27 gilb: after completing the gforth tutorial, I experimented for a few days, read over the ANS docs and thought some about how to implement a useful 4th with the machine-4th primitives 13:39:41 gilbertbsd: its not the best 4 prototyping arithmetic algorithms 13:39:43 (and looked over the Bigforth/i386 sources .. what a mess *those are) 13:39:44 gilbertbsd: I'm of the opinion that the only way to learn programming is by doing it...so I'd say probably next you should play around with it for a while to get a feel for what you still don't know... 13:39:53 i liked the pygmy tutor (dos) 13:40:09 gilbertbsd: coz u have 2 pay a lot of attention on the machine representation of the numbers 13:40:36 onetom I don't intend to delve that deeply into arithmetics :D 13:40:43 my needs are really very simple. 13:41:07 its okay, then 13:41:32 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-86-40-61.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 13:41:40 so if forth is this simple ... how come its not more widespread? 13:41:58 XeF4: how do ANS & machine-4th primitives r related? 13:42:06 I mean, you can teach anyone to program if all it takes is a simple tutorial! 13:42:28 one: hm? 13:43:05 gilbertbsd: coz its too lowlevel for the usual "programmer" 13:43:05 gilbertbsd: yes, thats right :) 13:43:14 gilbertbsd: but that lucky 1 who meets 4th as its very 1st programming "language" 13:43:35 gilbertbsd: will have 2 understand the internals of a computer quite well 13:43:47 hmmm 13:44:03 gilbertbsd: k, not the internals of the comp, but 13:44:21 one: I didn't understand what you said. 13:44:24 gilbertbsd: read the articles on www.ultratechnology.com if you are looking for more stuff to read 13:45:23 it's not exactly "too lowlevel" it just hasn't been supported well, and it's not verys standardized in the extensions.. forth hasn't been extended very well.. 13:45:43 she should know about bytes, 2's complement 13:45:43 stacks 13:45:43 he should b able 2 imagine the dictionary byte-by-byte 13:46:04 without these he wont b able 2 do too much useful in 4th 13:46:29 coz it doesnt support programmers w a lot of convenience stuff 13:46:30 the dictionary is a key:value nonordered thing no? 13:46:41 no 13:46:48 what is the dictionary? 13:46:58 i was talking about the 4th dict 13:47:00 you really shouldn't need to know that much about the dictionary, should you? 13:47:18 what holds threaded code + data mixed up in a 13:47:27 onetom: you lie, one doesn't need to know 2's complement to use forth, unless you are coding your own forth 13:47:28 an amazing way :) 13:47:43 gilbertbsd: dictionary is the list of words that the forth interpreter knows about, basically 13:48:05 futhin: believe me, futhin, u should 13:48:28 well there are conditionals, loops, and sequences. 13:48:40 what more do I need to understand to write a useful program in forth? 13:49:00 onetom: yeah, but knowing about 2's complement isn't necessary _right_ when you start off... 13:49:04 how could u explain the s>d wo explaining 2's complement? 13:49:32 tathi: if u wanna more serious dataprocessing 13:49:54 this page claims something about forth primitives: is that what I should know? http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/appb.html 13:50:03 tathi: u have t use the unused room in the dict 4 temp data storage instead of defining 13:50:28 tathi: temp vars, what is a really bad tactic/programming style/way of thinking 13:50:29 you don't need to know about all that crap to write forth code. 13:50:39 okay 13:50:46 it's cool, and you can maybe write code better if you know all that, but that can come later 13:51:03 what would you guys tell a total newbie who just dropped from the surface of lower Mars to earth? 13:51:05 you can read for 10 minutes and use forth as a calculator 13:51:15 what would you tell her about programming in forth? 13:51:31 onetom: what is s>d 13:51:41 "I can get you going in an hour" 13:51:44 futhin: lol 13:51:50 futhin: he's an embedded programmer :) 13:51:51 <_MrReach_> I would tell a Martian to carry Mace(R) and not be afrraid to use it. 13:52:14 on humans? 13:52:15 herkamire: and where would you point? 13:52:16 i agree 13:52:27 said person from lower mars can write pseudocode ... algol style. 13:52:29 lol 13:52:45 or pascal style... 13:53:31 gilbertbsd: Read the begining of "real time forth" or any forth tutorial, learn the primatives and *try them as you read*. 13:53:32 <_MrReach_> the reverse notation takes some getting used to ... once you've got the hange of it, forth usually lets you do things at a level MUCH lower than most languages 13:53:38 gilbertbsd: just read the tutorials and code simple stuff.. like draw a pyramid of asterisks 13:54:07 yeah thats what I'm doing... i'm having a little trouble interpreting this in gforth though: ok 10 0 do i 1+ . cr loop 13:54:11 gilbertbsd: thats the point. wo the knowledge of the internals of 4th 13:54:12 gilbertbsd: and find leo brodie's Starting Forth book at your local library (if they don't have it, do an interlibrary loan) 13:54:39 gilbert: you can't use DO LOOP unless it is inside a word 13:54:40 futhin: is it still possible to get hold of Thinking Forth? I haven't been able to find a copy _anywhere_? 13:54:41 gilbertbsd: and if I could I'd do it in person and make them type. I'd explain the stack and give them words to try one at a time :) 13:54:49 gilbertbsd: u can only produce code what is actually written in an other lang and just has been represented in 4th 13:54:54 : test 10 0 do i 1+ . cr loop ; 13:55:03 gilbertbsd: dont forget: 4th is an assembly 13:55:04 <_MrReach_> also of note, forth coders tend to evolve a style of writing and of breaking their projects into pieces that is unique. I GOOD forth coder can analyse and complete a project incredibly quickly 13:55:10 oh I see. inside a word. 13:55:18 then the author of that thing needs to be told! 13:55:28 the author of what? 13:55:32 gilbertbsd: so u can write a pascal compiler what compiles pascal code 2 this special asm 13:55:42 http://astro.pas.rochester.edu/Forth/loops.html 13:55:48 that author 13:56:07 heh 13:56:19 onetom: what do you mean it's an "assembly"? 13:56:32 yeah, in most forths, the compiler words can only be executed from inside a word 13:56:45 herkamire: forth words resemble bytecode 13:56:46 * tathi goes back to trying to get recurse to work... 13:56:49 gilbertbsd: thats the reason why u should have a clean vision about the 4th internals 13:56:50 <_MrReach_> herkamire: most of the fancy software tools are generally not present in forth 13:57:06 ugh! 13:57:08 forth resembles assembly 13:57:11 not because it's low-level 13:57:14 ok 13:57:18 gilbertbsd: if u have such a vision u wont try 2 write loops in interpreter mode :) 13:57:23 <_MrReach_> and it allows direct access to memory w/o much or any type checking 13:57:37 onetom: i was following the tutorial. 13:57:42 I do like that it's low level. the really impressive bit is that you can make it as high-level as you need it to be for your project 13:57:45 forth isn't low-level, it just isn't well supported and hasn't been extended out. and that's why forth coders need to get off their asses and EXTEND FORTH! 13:57:46 the tutorial told me to do that. 13:57:59 herkamire: just what it means. assembly is the native language of a processor 13:58:01 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk23.sat.net) joined #forth 13:58:19 <_MrReach_> this is perfectly legal ... somevar c! somevar @ 13:58:20 gforth isn't 13:58:26 would it be easy to have something like tkForth ? 13:58:27 <_MrReach_> greets, Etaoin 13:58:27 there are tons of forths that are not native 13:58:29 futhin: no, 4th doesnt resembles asm. it is one! 13:58:49 onetom: i know 13:58:56 on some hardware :) 13:59:07 onetom: but telling newbies can confuse them :P 13:59:15 on desktop machines it just includes a simple assembler 13:59:19 <_MrReach_> gilbertbsd: yes it would 13:59:30 how? 13:59:41 herkamire: no, it _is_ assembly.. it's kind of like bytecode, you can code a forth in forth.. 13:59:57 <_MrReach_> gilbertbsd: if you start from scratch, it would require about as much work as Tk itself 14:00:15 <_MrReach_> the tk work is rather straightforward ... but there's a lot of manhours there 14:00:17 herkamire: no, not "on some hw" 14:00:23 I see. 14:00:31 machineforth (the assembly lang of some chips that chuck moore built) is assembly lang because forth is an assembly lang.. you can code stuff on top of it.. 14:00:42 herkamire: its the asm of a type of processors 14:00:46 it's kidn of like bytecode.. 14:00:48 <_MrReach_> however, you *CAN* link directly to the tcl/tk libraries 14:00:58 herkamire: a family of processors 14:00:59 spam alert: these are the books available from my local library 14:01:03 1 14:01:04 Discover FORTH : learning and programming the FORTH language 14:01:04 2 14:01:04 Invitation to FORTH / by Harry Katzan, Jr 14:01:04 3 14:01:04 FORTH fundamentals / C. Kevin McCabe 14:01:06 4 14:01:08 FORTH programming / by Leo J. Scanlon 14:01:10 5 14:01:12 Mastering FORTH / Anita Anderson, Martin Tracy 14:01:14 <_MrReach_> but then there's some translation between forth conventions and tcl/tk convention 14:01:15 6 14:01:16 All about FORTH : an annotated glossary of common FORTH ideo 14:01:19 7 14:01:20 Library of Forth routines and utilities / by James Terry 14:01:24 which from that list would you recommend? 14:01:40 herkamire: tho, usually u cant have such a processor, but u simulate it 14:01:57 herkamire: coz, its pretty easy 2 write a simulator 14:02:12 <_MrReach_> Invatation to Forth was good, if I recall 14:02:18 <_MrReach_> been many years for me 14:02:29 <_MrReach_> check them all out, read a couple 14:02:30 herkamire: for a 4th processor. far more easier then writing a simulator 4 anything else 14:02:37 mrereach did you learn forth from leo brodies book? 14:02:46 gilbertbsd: get all of the books 14:02:50 all? 14:02:53 <_MrReach_> erm ... yes and no 14:02:54 gilbert bsd: i liked Mastering FORTH 14:03:05 <_MrReach_> the Brodie book was one of my first, yes 14:03:11 but if forth is so simple then won't it be redundant to get them all? 14:03:21 <_MrReach_> but I also had a team of professional forth coders for friends 14:03:28 gilbertbsd: Mastering FORTH, FORTH Fundamentals, and FORTH programming 14:03:30 ah I see. 14:03:52 I shall get them this evening then. 14:03:53 <_MrReach_> gilbertbsd: different books focus on different areas 14:04:27 <_MrReach_> "Library of Forth ..." for example, will have tons of code ... but not talk about the system very much 14:05:01 gilbertbsd: most of them suck, so you read them all to piece together a picture :P 14:05:07 gilbertbsd: i still recommend not b afraid of trying out 4th 1st 14:05:22 <_MrReach_> yeah, go grab a forth and start playing 14:05:23 gilbertbsd: and buy any books just after it 14:05:24 4th? is 4th different from forth? 14:05:35 I *am* already playing in forth. 14:05:36 gilbertbsd: no 14:05:37 hence the tutorial. 14:05:43 good :) 14:05:50 gilbertbsd: im just an abbreviator maniac :) 14:05:51 I am currently on loops 14:06:07 <_MrReach_> ".4th" is a file extension that I often use ... much to I440r's dismay 14:06:15 experiment and play a lot. if you get stuck ask us :) 14:06:16 gilbertbsd: !read the underview then! 14:06:35 (and you'll get at least five solutions depending on how many of us are online ;)) 14:06:38 yeah I shall read the underview. 14:06:41 gilbertbsd: herkamire speaks well! 14:06:44 but the underview is not a tutorial is it? 14:06:56 nope 14:07:00 forth is in no way like perl is it? 14:07:03 just an intro 14:07:08 not really.. 14:07:10 nope 14:07:13 gilbertbsd: its more fascinating learnin 4th through irc, then from a book 14:07:20 as in TIMTOWODI ? 14:07:32 gilbertbsd: unless u can manage 2 buy "starting forth" 14:07:38 <_MrReach_> gilbertbsd: that loop you wrote earlier could be optimised to ": test 11 1 DO i . cr LOOP ;" 14:07:58 gilbertbsd: sure forth is like perl. they are both computing languages 14:08:12 yes that worked .. the test thing 14:08:13 gilbertbsd: hehe, im a hungarian, so not so good @ expanding abbrevs, coz english is not my native lang 14:08:33 Hey do you know Simonyi? 14:08:38 s/through irc/via irc/ 14:08:58 Simonyi Who? 14:09:13 simonyi the hungarian? 14:09:22