00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.01
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01:46:45 <onetom> gutten morgen, yall
01:48:51 <MrReach> hihi
01:49:16 <onetom> how r u?
01:49:27 <MrReach> sleepy, actually
01:49:52 <onetom> just like me, ive just got up
01:50:08 <MrReach> heh, I'm just going to bed
01:50:15 <onetom> and didnt do too much useful during the holiday. &u?
01:50:24 <MrReach> naaw
01:50:34 <onetom> so, what is the time over there?
01:50:40 <MrReach> but leaving for a 5 day RV trip tomorrow
01:50:46 <MrReach> 01:50
01:50:46 <onetom> RV?
01:51:00 <MrReach> RV=big camper
01:51:20 <onetom> Rig Vamper? :)
01:51:45 <MrReach> heh
01:51:50 <onetom> well, good luck, then
01:51:59 <MrReach> thanks
01:52:29 <onetom> has everyzthing been packed yet?
01:53:02 <MrReach> yes, the only thing left is the reinstallation and testing of the trailer brakes
01:53:25 <MrReach> oh, and filling the water tanks
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01:56:36 <onetom> how many of u will do this trip?
01:56:40 <onetom> hello, rob_ert 
01:56:57 <MrReach> just me and my wife (and two small dogs)
01:58:49 <rob_ert> Hi 1tom and MrReach :)
01:59:01 <MrReach> hihi, rob_ert
01:59:22 <rob_ert> :}
01:59:35 * rob_ert will go outside for a while, bbl
02:05:16 <onetom> (...and too small dogz ;)
02:05:40 <MrReach> well, the bitch of THAT is ...
02:06:02 <MrReach> that one dog is in heat, and the other is male ... makes for an interesting trip
02:07:02 <onetom> lol
02:07:18 <onetom> no comment ;)
02:07:31 <MrReach>     @:^>
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10:14:22 <Etaoin> hello
10:14:25 <Etaoin> how are you?
10:25:31 <rob_ert> Fine :)
10:25:31 <rob_ert> Er
10:25:33 <rob_ert> Hehe
10:25:40 <rob_ert> I guess that wasn't for me :P
10:34:34 <Etaoin> anyone who wants to talk is welcome
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11:14:13 <I440r> hi!
11:14:15 <I440r> fixed the elf shit in isforth
11:14:17 <I440r> gdb likes the fsaved and turnkeyd files now
11:14:19 <I440r> THAT was a bitch heh
11:15:29 <I440r> also fixed a bug in the header relocation code - worked correctly when saving the first extended kernel but after that it was b0rked heh
11:18:21 <Etaoin> yay, I guess
11:18:28 <I440r> heh
11:18:45 <I440r> it was a bitch not being able to gdb fsaved shit
11:19:04 <I440r> im thinking of making fsave optionally save out symbol tables too :)
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12:17:24 <I440r> bbl
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13:54:06 --- nick: SoapSleep -> Soap`
13:54:42 <rob_ert> Morning :)
13:54:53 <rob_ert> Is it Tuesday over there?
14:01:18 <Etaoin> not here
14:01:27 <Soap`> Yup.
14:02:05 <Soap`> Been tuesday for about ten hours
14:03:42 <rob_ert> Hehe
14:03:52 <rob_ert> 5 minutes here :P
14:03:59 <rob_ert> Was Monday when I asked.
14:07:28 <Soap`> Hmmm. I'm going to have to make use of the timezone thingie more often.
14:07:52 <Soap`> "Hi, babe. I come from the future."
14:13:02 <rob_ert> :)
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14:29:18 <rob_ert> Hi I440r :)
14:29:44 <I440r> hi
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14:36:30 <rob_ert> Hi
14:36:34 <davidw> yay for locals
14:36:57 <I440r> locals ?
14:37:05 <davidw> yeah
14:37:07 <davidw> good stuff
14:37:12 <davidw> I couldn't go on without them
14:37:16 <I440r> isforth doesnt have locals - been trying to think of a way that they would actually HELP heh
14:37:29 <I440r> isforth doesnt have any spare registers
14:37:37 <I440r> so cant use register locals
14:38:11 <davidw> they are of great help
14:38:19 <davidw> you don't have to keep track of stupid details
14:38:53 <davidw> swaping and roting stuff in and out
14:39:10 <I440r> i saw some code that used locals and by the look of it the local names were just ways of referencing tiems on the stack
14:39:17 <I440r> just a way to give them names 
14:39:17 <I440r> so you can have
14:39:25 <I440r> 1 2 3 4 on the stack and have | a b c d \
14:39:36 <I440r> and reference each item by name and @ and ! to them
14:39:51 <I440r> the benifit in that is non existant
14:39:53 <I440r> brb
14:39:57 <davidw> you don't even have to @ and ! them
14:40:17 <davidw> non-existant if you spend your days twiddling bits instead of doing higher level programming
14:40:37 <davidw> some of us don't give a shit what order some arguments are passed on a stack
14:40:42 <davidw> we just want to use them
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14:44:31 <Etaoin> davidw: many forth programmers seem to enjoy spending their days twiddling bits
14:45:12 <davidw> which is great, if that's what you want to do - forth seems to be good at it
14:45:27 <davidw> I just added some locals to my code, and I was very impressed
14:45:42 <davidw> probably has a lot to do with the fact that I'm inexperienced with forth
14:45:56 <davidw> but... hey, anything that simplifies is probably good
14:54:14 <I440r> agreed
14:54:29 <I440r> juggling 2784578232 different stack parameters isnt fun heh
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15:35:27 <XeF4> hoi!
15:35:50 <I440r> xef4!!
15:35:50 <I440r> how goes it :)
15:37:45 <XeF4> quite well..
15:38:31 <I440r> :)
15:52:40 <I440r> i need an assembler :(
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16:10:18 <I440r> wb
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16:11:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
16:11:15 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
16:11:35 <I440r> tbw!!
16:12:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!! still struggling?
16:12:43 <I440r> er.... what was i struggling with - i forget heh
16:12:53 <I440r> i fixed a cpl of bugs yesterday 
16:13:00 <TheBlueWizard> by the way, I finally solved the email problem! :)))
16:13:06 <herkamire> grrrrr my sister killed the power to my computer while I wos out (and ripping a CD)
16:13:19 <herkamire> I had to run fsck manually and all that
16:13:19 <I440r> hehehe
16:13:34 <I440r> how old is your sis ?
16:13:45 <herkamire> 18
16:14:05 <I440r> send her to me :)
16:14:06 <herkamire> maybe she thought it crashed
16:14:10 <I440r> ill sort her out thoi :)
16:14:58 <herkamire> I changed the key that used to open up a web browser to change to viewport 8 :)
16:14:59 <I440r> is she cute ?? :)
16:15:09 <I440r> heh
16:15:10 <herkamire> yeah, but she's taken
16:15:40 <I440r> box her up and send her to me anyway :)
16:15:49 <I440r> lie to her - tell her im rich :)
16:15:51 <I440r> lol
16:16:12 <herkamire> she tends to go for tall dopy guys who like sports
16:16:27 <I440r> im tall
16:16:31 <I440r> i do wing chun :)
16:16:41 <I440r> and if i was working i WOULD be rich
16:16:56 <herkamire> if you got paid for what you do :)
16:17:21 <herkamire> what sort of style is win chun? I can't place it
16:17:46 <I440r> its a southern china style
16:17:53 <I440r> its not like any other kung fu style
16:18:14 <I440r> you can learn the basics of it in a year. it only uses two weapons other than the body
16:18:27 <I440r> long pole and sword
16:19:02 <I440r> thers no wavy arms all over the place. its all close quaters work - very minimalistic. devistatingly effective
16:19:18 <onetom> hehe, some non4th topics have arosen
16:19:19 <I440r> i would put a beginner at wing chun up against a master at some other style
16:19:36 <I440r> winchun is the forth of kung fu :)
16:19:41 <herkamire> lol
16:19:46 <onetom> hi&bye 4 every1
16:19:55 <onetom> :)
16:19:57 <I440r> the mook jong (wooden man) is a wing chun thing
16:20:14 <herkamire> cool
16:21:02 <onetom> & the 4th execution trace is also a *tree*
16:21:07 <I440r> bruce lee started in wing chun but didnt learn the mook jong stuff
16:21:30 <onetom> so probably its really related 2 winchun some how
16:21:38 <I440r> when he went back to hong kong he offered to pay 1 million to his old master if he would teach him
16:21:41 <I440r> yip man
16:21:46 <onetom> probably mook jong is made of an exection tree? ;)
16:21:46 <I440r> he refused to teach it
16:22:05 <herkamire> weird
16:22:50 <herkamire> that's probably where I've heard of it. I have a friend who is obsessed with Bruce Lee, and I've seen some of his movies
16:23:00 <TheBlueWizard> bye onetom
16:23:02 <onetom> k, gnight, sorry 4 disturbin.
16:23:30 <onetom> is "gone in 60 secs" a good film?
16:23:38 <onetom> im about 2 watch it now
16:23:45 <rob_ert> I've heard it's not :)
16:23:47 <rob_ert> Have fun
16:23:51 <herkamire> hehe
16:24:01 <herkamire> I was going to say, it's a little late to ask :)
16:24:11 <onetom> rob_ert: lol, thx 4 the preview
16:24:15 <rob_ert> :PO
16:24:16 <rob_ert> np
16:24:55 <I440r> so - about your sister....
16:24:56 <I440r> heh
16:25:58 <herkamire> hehe
16:27:15 <XeF4> i440r: do you live in the cellar or some military academy?
16:27:24 <XeF4> s/or/of/
16:27:32 <XeF4> or some other place with no women for 100s of kms?
16:27:50 <rob_ert> The south pole?
16:27:54 <TheBlueWizard> lol
16:28:06 <I440r> er, if you look in the "personal" adds for girls here in indiana
16:28:11 <I440r> they all call themselves average
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16:28:15 <I440r> and thats correct
16:28:19 <I440r> 200lb IS average here
16:28:19 <herkamire> :) fedex isn't the normal way to get chicks ;)
16:28:21 <I440r> grr
16:29:59 <TheBlueWizard> lol
16:31:21 <I440r> who cares if you get a chick!!!
16:31:22 <I440r> lol
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16:32:23 <TheBlueWizard> yup
16:32:28 <TheBlueWizard> hiya MrReach
16:32:28 <I440r> mrreach!
16:32:30 <I440r> :)
16:32:41 <rob_ert> Hi :)
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16:34:51 <I440r> lol
16:35:12 <herkamire> he has a good time with his connection
16:35:39 <XeF4> do Indianian women use personal ads as a last resort, or ... ?
16:35:49 <I440r> indiana ?
16:35:51 <I440r> i dunno
16:35:59 <I440r> but obece wimmin abound in indiana
16:36:03 <I440r> its like fat city usa
16:36:36 <rob_ert> (Note: USA = fat country)
16:36:42 <I440r> it is
16:36:50 <I440r> i can tell you why too
16:36:58 <I440r> its the "diet" products that make you fat
16:37:00 <herkamire> I know some fat people from indiana :)
16:37:15 <I440r> they have a high carbohydrate content and the body converts taht to sugar
16:37:22 <I440r> to fight the sugar the body produces insulin
16:37:25 <herkamire> and one or two who aren't fat :)
16:37:27 <I440r> and THAt makes your body retain fat
16:37:41 <rob_ert> Heh
16:37:58 <rob_ert> So everyone eat "diet" stuff ? :P
16:38:07 <XeF4> interesting.. I live mostly on bread, potatoes and onions
16:38:08 <I440r> ot everyone
16:38:08 <TheBlueWizard> I consume a lot of carbo, and yet I ain't fat (I admit I do have a small paunch there...*pat* *pat* :)
16:38:11 <XeF4> and I am not obese
16:38:13 <I440r> but its a HUGE industry
16:38:24 <XeF4> (very high carbohydrate content there)
16:38:32 <I440r> its do do with metabolic rate heh
16:38:40 <TheBlueWizard> but more importantly, I do exercise some
16:38:54 <herkamire> carbo's also take energy to convert to shugar, so it takes a lot of it to make a difference
16:39:15 <I440r> herkamire:  not if you have a low metabolic rate
16:39:19 <I440r> whichh is what fat people have
16:39:37 <herkamire> if you give your body what it needs, it can deal with you giving it stuff it some stuff doesn't need :)
16:39:51 <I440r> exactly
16:40:00 <herkamire> I don't know about metabolic rates.
16:40:01 <I440r> you should eat well marbled red meat
16:40:03 <I440r> pie
16:40:04 <I440r> cake
16:40:09 <herkamire> I do know that there are people who can't seem to get fat.
16:40:11 <TheBlueWizard> herkamire: carbohydrates is just a name for a large collection of various compounds, which include table sugar (sucrose), fructose, dextrose, lactose, and complex carbohdrates are often called starch
16:40:12 <I440r> all of that
16:40:25 <I440r> and you should put as much salt on your food as tastes good to you
16:40:36 <I440r> low salt diets will kill you 
16:40:52 <herkamire> I've been eating like a 16 year old (a lot) for the past year and an half and haven't been getting much exercise at all, and I'm not gaining weight.
16:41:06 <herkamire> I gained five pounds of muscle while I was working out for a few months in there...
16:41:16 <I440r> herkamire: i eat ALOT. i always have
16:41:21 <I440r> and i go back for seconds and thirds
16:41:23 <I440r> and i dont get fat
16:41:27 <I440r> and im almost 40
16:41:34 <herkamire> crap. I was thinking starch when I said carbos.
16:41:45 <I440r> starch is a carbohydrate
16:41:58 <I440r> starch is a sugar polimer
16:42:02 <I440r> how ever you spell it
16:42:14 <I440r> its a long chain of sugar molecules
16:42:23 <I440r> thats what carbohydrates are
16:42:27 <I440r> starch is just one form
16:42:28 <I440r> i believe
16:42:36 <herkamire> far as I know, the important thing is to get your body what it does need, and not too much shugar. and get some exercise
16:43:08 <herkamire> that's cool :) so making sugar out of carbos, is literally breaking up the molecules
16:43:08 <I440r> yes
16:43:22 <TheBlueWizard> yep...starch = sugar polymer....often a really long chain!  interestingly, the stomach breaks starch down by adding water to each link point...that's why you tend to drink more water when consuming starch
16:43:29 <I440r> but fat people who eat diet food are actually starving their bodies of things that are it needs
16:43:36 <I440r> so they stuff themselves with shit they dont 
16:43:41 <I440r> and they g4et fatter and fatter
16:43:57 <herkamire> :) that's cool :) I thought we drank more because it's usually dry :) :)
16:44:01 <I440r> the diet industry is a self sustaining industry
16:44:16 <herkamire> :)
16:44:17 * TheBlueWizard . . . o O ( Forth...the fat free language! )
16:44:23 <I440r> :)
16:44:24 <herkamire> lol
16:44:27 <I440r> gives you everthing you need
16:44:30 <I440r> nothing you dont :)
16:44:45 <I440r> actually, fat free food will make you fat
16:44:53 <I440r> eat that fat. its what your body needs
16:45:04 <TheBlueWizard> ok...lemme correct that thought....
16:45:09 <I440r> it will give you the nutrients you need :)
16:45:10 * TheBlueWizard . . . o O ( Forth...the lean language! )
16:45:14 <I440r> :)
16:45:23 <TheBlueWizard> :)
16:45:33 <herkamire> don't forget to excercise those factoring skills
16:45:46 <herkamire> eating fat doesn't make you fat
16:46:17 <herkamire> it's suprising how many people think it does
16:46:51 <I440r> just the opposite in fact
16:47:19 <I440r> neway i gota go code some usefull shit :)
16:47:26 <I440r> bbl :)
16:47:28 <herkamire> hehe
16:47:33 <I440r> tomorrow prollyt
16:47:41 <I440r> cu l8er :)
16:47:47 <herkamire> arright :) may the forth be with you
16:47:53 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...true!   fat and oil are just a more compact form of energy...and helps you absorb nutrients like vitamin C...in fact without fat or oil, it is impossible to absorb fat souble vitamins!
16:48:06 <TheBlueWizard> take care, I440r!
16:48:15 --- quit: I440r ("abort" insufficent coding being done :)"")
16:48:27 <TheBlueWizard> lol re: quit msg
16:50:05 <herkamire> it amazes me how little almost everybody in this country at least (US) know about what to eat
16:51:31 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...and I've learned there a lot of different schools of thoughts re: what we should eat....like certain meals should be selected for certain blood type, for example
16:51:34 <herkamire> if people knew how much it effects your health and energy levels, most people would majorly change what they eat
16:51:36 <rob_ert> I want to send a zero-terminated string to a computer, with some standard UNIX tool or telnet. How to do?
16:52:12 <herkamire> tcpserver :)
16:52:26 <TheBlueWizard> huh?  your question is vague, since the transmission is usually doone in TCP/IP format
16:53:06 <rob_ert> Uhm
16:53:14 <rob_ert> I've got a server on another computer
16:53:22 <herkamire> from one unix box to another over a network
16:53:25 <rob_ert> it excpects a zero-terminated string
16:53:31 <rob_ert> No, UNIX -> Win
16:53:41 <herkamire> ahh :)
16:54:03 <TheBlueWizard> now that is a bit clearer...
16:54:03 <herkamire> I don't think you can stop telnet from doing other stuff with the connection.
16:54:32 <rob_ert> So...any solution?
16:54:47 <herkamire> you want "tcpclient". it will open a tcp connection to the given host:ip and run your command sending stdout over the network, and stdin reads from the network.
16:55:36 <herkamire> tcpclient is part of ucspi-tcp which you can get from http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html
16:55:42 <rob_ert> OK
16:55:45 <rob_ert> Thanks
16:57:23 <herkamire> you could do: tcpclient win-host <port number> cat file_containing_string
16:57:55 <rob_ert> :)
16:58:18 <herkamire> might be tricky to get the zero in the file though
16:58:38 <Etaoin> are you crazy?
16:58:43 <herkamire> yes
16:58:49 <Etaoin> oh
16:58:52 <Etaoin> okay
16:58:54 <herkamire> it would be better to write a little C program.
16:59:11 <Etaoin> even better to write a python or perl program
16:59:29 <herkamire> tcpclient is very nice, that way you don't have to deal with networking.
16:59:31 <XeF4> you, herkamire, have been convicted of heresey!  what have you to say for yourself?
16:59:38 <XeF4> robert: have you looked at netcat?
16:59:52 <herkamire> what? the "cat" thing?
17:00:07 <XeF4> "write a little C program"
17:00:14 <herkamire> oh, sorry
17:00:21 <herkamire> write a little forth program :)
17:00:43 <herkamire> ." whatever" 0 emit
17:00:54 <TheBlueWizard> lol
17:01:10 <herkamire> ok, now I'm thumping myself in the head
17:03:34 <herkamire> that was blasphemous. 
17:03:42 <herkamire> I've grown so accustomed to C
17:05:04 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...understandable
17:05:29 <herkamire> it is the current way to be compatible
17:05:46 <TheBlueWizard> yup
17:06:01 <herkamire> err, the fast way to be compatible anyway :)
17:06:45 <herkamire> I don't get the impression people have to write rediculous long autoconf scripts to write things in perl :)
17:09:30 <herkamire> it's been a while since I wrote any forth code that did anything, I'm starting to forget how cool it is :)
17:09:58 <TheBlueWizard> :)
17:10:11 <herkamire> I still think it's pretty dang cool, but it's definately slipped down a few noches from "the coolest thing since sliced bread"
17:10:50 <herkamire> now that I finally know how to use gforth as a CGI...
17:11:11 <XeF4> the coolest thing since sliced bread are slice-thick loaves so you can break off the slice size you need :)
17:12:29 <herkamire> haven't seen those, except as part of pizza
17:13:05 <XeF4> rye bread here (Finland) usually comes in rings about 1.5cm thick
17:13:37 <TheBlueWizard> some Italian restaurants offer that...or just go bake potato rolls ;)
17:16:07 <herkamire> XeF4: how big around? that sounds cool
17:16:38 <XeF4> ~20-25cm
17:16:40 <TheBlueWizard> 1 inch == 2.54 cm, FYI
17:18:26 <herkamire> oh god :) I don't even have gforth installed
17:18:57 <TheBlueWizard> heh
17:20:41 <herkamire> oh, I was using a different forth
17:22:50 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
17:23:01 <herkamire> bye
17:23:11 <TheBlueWizard> bye herkamire
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18:27:20 <onetom> tathi: hi
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18:29:14 <tathi> hey onetom
18:29:18 <onetom> tathi: does motorola processors have memory protection mechanisms?
18:29:35 <tathi> most do, some don't
18:30:20 <tathi> Dragonball processors like in Palms are a 68EC000 core, so they don't
18:30:44 <onetom> where can i find electronic dox on motorola procs?
18:30:48 <tathi> but some of the later 68K processors do
18:30:54 <onetom> aha, thats a useful info :)
18:31:40 <tathi> well, if you have a browser that supports JavaScript decently you can try www.mot-sps.com
18:32:25 <tathi> they have these horrible JavaScript-ed pulldowns that are badly organized to get to their docs :(
18:32:36 <onetom> ahha
18:32:45 <tathi> I haven't ever bothered checking if all their docs are on some ftp server somewhere...
18:33:10 <tathi> PPC has crazy memory protection
18:33:43 <tathi> you can have read, write, and execute permissions set completely separately
18:33:50 <tathi> for both user and supervisor runlevels
18:34:07 <onetom> what do u mean by "separately"?
18:34:44 <tathi> often read and execute access are the same...or you have to have read access to have write access...
18:35:12 <tathi> PPC you can set it so you can read the memory, but not execute from there.
18:35:28 <tathi> nice for not accidentally executing your data
18:35:42 <tathi> pain in the ass when you're trying to write a native forth though :)
18:36:18 <tathi> _and_ it has separate data/instruction caches
18:37:18 <tathi> so you have to write the code to memory, then flush the dcache and invalidate the icache, then for some reason you have to set execute permissions on that block of memory again.
18:38:19 <tathi> took me _forever_ to get it working
18:38:45 <onetom> oy c
18:39:15 <onetom> but umean, u have access 2 the caches of the processor somehow?
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18:43:12 <tathi> you can tell the data cache that it needs to write a certain set of addresses to main memory
18:43:51 <tathi> or tell the instruction cache that a range of addresses are invalid and that to execute from there it needs to read from main memory.
18:48:40 <onetom> but u have 2 do such things only when u r modifing mem near the execution address, right?
18:50:31 <tathi> right
18:50:56 <tathi> for "normal" programs you never even have to think about the caches :)
18:51:20 <onetom> huh, all right then :)
18:51:33 <onetom> and thx 4 the motorola link
18:52:11 <onetom> datasheets r already traveling 2 my computer
18:53:02 <tathi> what datasheets were you looking for?
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19:06:14 <qless> mrreach, how come you got 2x4's attached to your feet?
19:08:02 <onetom> tathi: i was lookin 4 datasheets 4 the processor of my Palm IIIe, but ive found it, ithink
19:08:35 <onetom> tathi: so its time 2 sleep 4. thx 4 ur help
19:11:43 <tathi> onetom: no problem ... later...
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21:48:18 --- topic: 'Forth is a programming language, an operating system, an interactive environment, and a philosophy. Read "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie and maximize the quality of your code.'
21:48:18 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Sun Mar 31 14:13:11 2002]
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