00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.30
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01:58:55 <rob_ert> Hi Soap` :)
01:59:18 <Soap`> Morning
02:20:48 <onetom> happy easter 2 every1
02:21:23 <rob_ert> Thanks :)
02:21:26 <rob_ert> Same to you
02:22:27 <Soap`> Helpful tip: if you see rabbits leaving little brown balls around the countryside, they *might not be chocolate*
02:23:04 <onetom> rob_ert: whats ur prg 4 easter?
02:28:23 <rob_ert> 1tom: Playing games, installing Debian...some coding too, maybe :)
02:29:00 <rob_ert> It's nice weather here, so I might not spend all my time in front of the computer :)
02:41:44 <onetom> well, the weather is also fine here... but there r so many things 2 read & 2 do..
02:41:57 * onetom bb in ~3hrs
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07:35:52 <herkamire> can I make a forth with just two stacks?
07:36:07 <herkamire> use the return stack as the control stack
07:37:50 <Fare> sure
07:37:55 <Fare> some people have done it
07:38:13 <herkamire> what? a control stack?
07:38:18 <Fare> the control stack is a compile-time feature that may be merged with the return stack at run-time
07:43:22 <herkamire> cool. so all I need is two stacks, a dictionary, and the code/data can use the rest of the memory
07:43:41 <herkamire> I keep thinking I'm leaving something out
07:44:02 <Fare> what about the heap?
07:44:24 <Fare> (a heap is a good way to manage the dictionary, too)
07:48:26 <herkamire> the heap is where you put stuff from comma?
07:48:40 <herkamire> or do you mean a memory manager?
07:55:45 <Fare> yup. Comma puts stuff on the heap
07:55:53 <Fare> memory manager, same thing
07:56:05 <Fare> but forth is too low level for many purposes
08:48:23 <herkamire> you can make forth high level
08:48:44 <herkamire> the cool part is you can make it high level AND well suited to your project(s).
08:49:06 <herkamire> I can put my code in the heap too right?
08:49:33 <herkamire> that's what I meant my code/data
09:24:28 <futhin> sure, the code goes into the dictionary..
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13:10:36 <onetom> hi
13:11:38 <Soap-> I hate my ISP :/
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13:16:03 <futhin> hello
13:16:08 <Soap-> Morning.
13:19:06 <futhin> soap-: do you know how to make guis in windoze?
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13:38:48 <Soap-> Under forth? Nope.
14:12:21 <herkamire> huh?
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15:11:10 <MrGone> yes, it's rather complex, making the guis
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15:11:52 <MrReach> futhin: still alive?
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15:48:03 <I440r> fare!
15:48:16 <MrReach> heh
15:48:58 <MrReach> just so you can say "I told you so!" ... microsoft seems to have dropped support for windowsCE
15:49:31 <onetom> hi
15:49:36 <MrReach> *** moogy has quit IRC ("vwait tillGatesPlaysFair")
15:49:50 <MrReach> hihi
15:51:32 <I440r> heh
15:51:46 <I440r> he has a long wait :P
15:52:10 <MrReach> heh, that is a TCL idiom that is usually written "vwait forever"
15:52:40 <MrReach> your prog will hang, handling background events, until the variable "forever" is changed
15:53:40 <I440r> :)
15:53:48 <I440r> its the idle loop then ?
15:53:55 <MrReach> yep
15:54:45 <MrReach> also incorporating "select" ... you can define procedures to be called on any number of file descriptor events
15:55:04 <I440r> yes - that sort of thing is planned for isforth but theres a problem
15:55:22 <MrReach> yeah, callbacks are a royal BITCH in forth
15:55:22 <I440r> every single process is going to have a verbatum copy of the isforth kernel
15:55:30 <I440r> it has to copy on write 
15:55:40 <I440r> so they cant share common list space :(
15:55:54 <I440r> if some taks modifies some variable none of the other tasks will see the change
15:56:04 <MrReach> yes, and hence the need for USER type variables
15:56:13 <I440r> ugh
15:56:20 <MrReach> the original forth writers weren't idiots
15:56:25 <I440r> i know that
15:56:34 <I440r> but user variables are so MESSY
15:56:38 <I440r> also
15:56:48 <MrReach> yes, a confusing level of indirection
15:56:51 <I440r> every single defered word thats used in the kernel has to be a user variable
15:56:56 <I440r> like key
15:56:57 <I440r> emit
15:56:59 <I440r> etc etc etc
15:57:05 <MrReach> yep
15:57:05 <I440r> quit is defered in isforth now
15:57:08 <I440r> too
15:57:13 <MrReach> excellent!
15:57:18 <I440r> i think it was you that suggested it
15:57:25 <MrReach> either QUIT or COLD ... whichever
15:57:34 <I440r> and it was in line with something thats been floating arround the back of my mind for a while
15:57:41 <I440r> hang on let me get the soruce file and quote it
15:57:45 <I440r> the comment that
15:57:46 <I440r> is
15:57:51 <I440r> tell me what you think about htiw
15:57:52 <I440r> this
15:57:53 <I440r> grr
15:57:58 <I440r> mental note - leran to type
15:57:59 <I440r> heh
15:58:10 <MrReach> well, a defered QUIT will oneday be neccessary for turnkeyed apps, regardless
15:58:25 <I440r> hehe i can already turnkey
15:58:29 <I440r> but its not 100% needed
15:58:32 <I440r> ' myword is default
15:58:34 <I440r> turnkey foo
15:58:35 <I440r> or
15:58:39 <I440r> ' myword is quit
15:58:41 <MrReach> heh, you're not writing apps, yet
15:58:43 <I440r> turnkey foo
15:58:47 <I440r> i am actually
15:59:21 <I440r> according to the forth tradition the word quit is the main loop of the innter interpreter.
15:59:36 <I440r> i have a slightly modified view of what quit is however, to me quit is the inner compiler.
15:59:38 <MrReach> ok, many definitions of TURNKEY require an xt of the start word on the stack, and patch the defered QUIT (or whatever) for you
16:00:06 <MrReach> ok, you might want to defer COLD instead
16:00:07 <I440r> this is because during the development stage the compiler is the primary function of forth.
16:00:26 <I440r> the interpret loop that quit calls is just a means of interfacing to the compiler and testing that which you compile
16:00:38 <MrReach> lemme double check ANS ...
16:00:56 <I440r> once the development is complete and your new applicatiion executable is saved out the word quit is usually never referenced
16:01:13 <I440r> in a turnkeyd application where all headers have been stripped otu of the target executable it would be silly to 
16:01:27 <MrReach> ok, something you should be made aware of ...
16:01:33 <I440r> make a reference to quit because that path eventually tries to search the dictionary
16:01:43 <I440r> yes ?
16:01:54 <MrReach> QUIT is only supposed to reset the return stack
16:02:04 <I440r> erm no - i disagree
16:02:04 <MrReach> not both the return and parameter stacks
16:02:08 <I440r> its fucked up
16:02:12 <MrReach> here's why ...
16:02:15 <I440r> have abort do one and quit do the other
16:02:37 <I440r> you never restart at quit unless you have had an abort
16:02:45 <MrReach> if a program get mangled and throws an error ... it eventually calls QUIT and returns you to the top-level interpreter
16:03:01 <I440r> or your inner loop
16:03:30 <MrReach> in such a case, knowing what was on the parameter stack can be invaluable in figuring out what went wrong
16:03:38 <I440r> its one of the obfuscations i "fixed" from fpc. i hated the way it reset one stack over there and the other over here 
16:03:47 <I440r> errr... abort is an implied drop all
16:03:56 <I440r> its ALWAYS been so
16:04:02 <MrReach> yes, I remember that caught me off guard, also ... but there was a reson for it
16:04:03 <I440r> abort" foo"
16:04:15 <I440r> abort" calls abort which dumps the p stack
16:04:25 <I440r> then jumps to quit which dumps the r stack
16:04:39 <I440r> you NEVER enter at the top of quit other than boot up or abort
16:04:54 <I440r> so. as you have aborted anyway both stacks are cleared in quit
16:04:55 <MrReach> <some code that determines health of application and leave flag> IF QUIT THEN
16:05:11 <I440r> err. i wouldnt do that heh
16:05:16 <I440r> or suggest it
16:05:18 <MrReach> it is also the basis for ASSERT
16:05:23 <I440r> its like coding a gordian knot heh
16:05:31 <MrReach> yes, it's confusing
16:05:39 <I440r> if you assert and it fails its an abort
16:05:44 <I440r> brb
16:05:46 <I440r> food
16:05:49 <I440r> ill be quick :)
16:05:53 <MrReach> BUT there are times when you want to keep the param stack during an error
16:05:57 <MrReach> ok
16:14:03 <MrReach> 4 o'clock ... I gotta go pull the alternator out of the truck
16:16:01 <MrReach> be back after dark (two hours from now)
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16:16:55 <rob_ert> Hi qless :)
16:17:00 <qless> heya rob_ert :)
16:17:47 <onetom> rob_ert: it must b dark&cold out side ;)
16:17:56 <onetom> hello qless 
16:18:04 <qless> hiho onetom
16:18:20 <rob_ert> onetom: It is.
16:18:24 <rob_ert> 01:15
16:18:43 <rob_ert> And approx. 275 K outside.
16:18:53 <herkamire> K?
16:19:05 <herkamire> :) it's 7:20pm here
16:19:34 <herkamire> Kelvin?
16:19:54 <rob_ert> Yes, Kelvin.
16:20:13 <rob_ert> (Farenheit sucks, Celsius is a bit better, Kelvin rules ;)
16:21:03 <herkamire> just about every american mesurement unit sucks
16:21:51 <herkamire> Kelvin is cool. I've never heard of anybody but scientists use it though.
16:21:53 <onetom> rob_ert: its also 1:29 here, not counting the +1h timeshift...
16:22:16 <onetom> herkamire: *khm* & programmers...
16:22:31 <rob_ert> "NASA immediately
16:22:31 <rob_ert> delegated operational control of these projects back to the DoD agencies while it put its own house in order."
16:22:35 <onetom> the thermo sensors w use in our
16:22:37 <rob_ert> What does DoD mean in this case?
16:22:56 <onetom> building control system give temp info in K
16:23:00 <herkamire> what is khm?
16:23:17 <onetom> DefenceOfD....
16:23:40 <onetom> herkamire: khm is a throath sound
16:24:01 <herkamire> right :)
16:24:44 <I440r> back :)
16:25:03 <herkamire> I suppose programmers like obscure things that almost nobody uses (because they are the best way to do it.)
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16:26:59 <onetom> herkamire: using K is very convenient, coz u dont have 2 deal w negative temperatures
16:27:19 <qless> (unless its Real Cold[tm])
16:28:55 <onetom> qless: :)))
16:29:23 <onetom> there was a thread on debian-curiosa@lists.debian.org about 
16:29:56 <onetom> negative Ks. and quite interesting things has arosen from this idea
16:30:21 <qless> those debian jokers don't have more important things to do... sheesh :-)
16:30:30 <onetom> coz it presumes the existance of negative kinetic energy
16:31:31 <qless> that would make for an interesting pool game
16:32:31 <onetom> hey, thats the *curiosa* list!
16:32:44 <onetom> they have fun there
16:32:50 <qless> cool :)
16:33:05 <onetom> everybody needs havin phun, dont they?
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16:43:47 <qless> bbl
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16:50:32 <MrReach> ok, altornator's out ... have a cup of coffee, then go get a new one
16:51:32 <MrReach> sure wish I could figure out how to get an old John Deer alternator I've seen to mount in there
16:52:46 <MrReach> would never have to worry about how much draw my 12v-120v invertor has
16:53:45 <MrReach> heh, it's so physically big, though, I'd I'd have to hold it with a floor jack while I put the bolts in.
16:54:31 <MrReach> rated "900 amps" ... the one I took out is 85 amps
16:54:58 <MrReach> three belts, it'd be a real job converting the engine
16:55:22 <MrReach> oh, on the tractor, the alternator also doubles as the starting motor
16:55:56 <MrReach> I should go find another channel to yak about this stuff
16:56:23 <herkamire> :)
16:56:39 <onetom> probably, yes :)
16:56:41 <I440r> hehe
16:56:41 <I440r> nah
16:56:44 <I440r> this channel isnt moderated :P
16:56:58 <I440r> you can talk anything you want :)
16:57:12 <MrReach> I440r: sometimes one wants the parameter stack intact during an error
16:57:15 <onetom> tho, i could talk about such things w him, but
16:57:27 <onetom> i dont know the english terminology
16:57:29 <onetom> :(
16:57:48 <MrReach> that is why it is so conventional for QUIT to leave it alone that they incorporated it into the standard
16:58:30 <MrReach> hmmm ... hasn't it been in every standard that way? clear back to FIG?
16:58:37 <I440r> it just seems to be another way to obfuscate things tho
16:58:45 <I440r> ive never seena condition where an error didnt eventually blow away both stacks
16:58:50 <MrReach> yes, confusing
16:59:07 <MrReach> and there's no recovery with a clean return stack
16:59:58 <I440r> heh well ill keep it in mind - but moving the sp0 @ sp! into quit was one of the "fixits" i did heh
17:00:11 * MrReach nods.
17:00:32 <MrReach> I thought you might do something like that ... that's why I made certain to point it out to you
17:00:46 <MrReach> it's one of those things that's not immediately obvious
17:00:56 <I440r> have you ever used the feature ?
17:01:01 <MrReach> yes
17:01:07 <MrReach> three times, in fact
17:01:24 <MrReach> when I couldn't for the life of me figure out why my app was bombing
17:01:33 <I440r> i never have - abort has always cleaned both stacks
17:01:33 <I440r> i use that
17:01:33 <I440r> ..
17:01:38 <I440r> empty parameter stack
17:02:16 <MrReach> well, done with my coffee ... off to the parts store to spend another $65
17:02:28 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
17:03:03 <I440r> :)
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