00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.27
00:09:55 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-25-6.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth
02:11:43 <onetom> good mornin
02:50:33 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapSleep
03:19:17 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
03:19:17 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
03:20:10 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
03:20:10 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
06:42:34 <davidw> create foobar 100000 cells allot
06:42:43 <davidw> how come this gives me an overflow?
06:42:47 <davidw> it's not that much memory...
07:23:22 <rob_ert> Hehe
07:23:29 <rob_ert> Might depend on what system :P
07:23:50 <rob_ert> Minix and DOS aren't really known to give you a lot of memory to play with.
07:27:32 <onetom> hi
07:28:00 <onetom> davidw: what 4th do u use?
07:29:01 <rob_ert> Hi onetom.
07:31:43 <davidw> gforth on linux
07:32:39 <onetom> then u have 2 give enough dictionary size via 
07:33:02 <onetom> command line switches
07:33:12 <onetom> rob_ert: hello. wb from school :)
07:33:36 <rob_ert> Thanks >:)
07:33:37 <onetom> coz allot allocates space on the dictionary
07:33:47 <davidw> aha
07:34:01 <onetom> if u wanna allocate mem from the system
07:34:15 <onetom> (imean, claim some mem from the OS)
07:34:26 <onetom> then u should use the word "allocate"
07:34:30 <davidw> aha
07:34:37 <davidw> lunch time!
07:34:45 <onetom> it calls the malloc func from libc
07:35:06 <onetom> allot simply adjusts dp (dictionary pointer)
08:03:40 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
08:03:40 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
08:05:16 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
08:05:16 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
08:17:53 <davidw> so how do you create a named array/variable/create whatever and attach it to a bunch of heap space?
08:31:24 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
08:34:04 <futhin> good morning all
08:36:24 <davidw> hi
08:39:43 <davidw> http://www.pigdog.org/auto/electro_diddle/link/915.html
08:41:34 <davidw> damn the gforth tutorial
08:41:46 <davidw> what I would give to have powell's nearby:-(
08:42:46 <davidw> futhin - maybe you know - so how do you create a named array/variable/create whatever and attach it to a bunch of heap space?
08:45:27 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:45:29 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-25-6.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth
08:46:24 <davidw> damn
08:53:10 <onetom> davidw: nu, me here
08:55:10 <davidw> hi
08:57:49 <onetom> okay, let me show u some bits&pieces
08:58:40 <davidw> I mean, I guess I could do something like 10 allocate
08:58:44 <davidw> then put that in a variable
08:58:48 <davidw> but... yuck
08:59:03 <davidw> isn't there any better way?
08:59:21 <onetom> like what?
08:59:39 <onetom> how would u like 2 handle 
08:59:39 <onetom> dynamic mem?
08:59:50 <onetom> show me the style u prefer
08:59:52 <davidw> in C, I would do this:
09:00:05 <onetom> & i will code it in 4th 4 u
09:00:08 <davidw> things[100][1000] 
09:01:25 <davidw> .oO("portable assember" is a good description...)
09:01:28 <onetom> aaand?
09:01:45 <davidw> and then I want to put values into my 2 dimensional array
09:01:49 <onetom> yes, thats a pretty good aspect
09:01:49 <davidw> but I think I can handle that
09:02:15 <onetom> c does pointer handling very nice
09:02:31 <davidw> I'm used to working with languages like Tcl;-)
09:02:33 <onetom> in a more highlevel way than asm
09:02:53 <onetom> coz it also considers data types
09:03:29 <onetom> in 4th u dont have such constructs by default
09:03:41 <onetom> u have 2 create them
09:03:58 <onetom> so they could highly suite 2 yr need
09:04:28 <onetom> u have several choices here
09:04:49 <onetom> create a 2d array defining word
09:05:17 <onetom> a, that could handle arbitrary data chunks
09:05:21 <davidw> no, because I just need one of these arrays
09:05:45 <onetom> b, can handle that size u need 4 yr current task
09:05:59 <davidw> but how do I match it up with a word?
09:06:29 <onetom> eeer, cant understand. ask it again in a full sentence plz
09:06:30 <davidw>      CREATE text-buf 80 chars allot
09:06:44 <davidw> is an example of how to do what I need, but it uses the dictionary space
09:06:48 <davidw> which isn't big enough
09:07:36 <onetom> & whats wrong w enlarging dict?
09:07:51 <davidw> because I don't want to?
09:08:55 <davidw> it doesn't seem like the right thing
09:08:58 <davidw> I need a lot of space
09:09:06 <davidw> so I should get it from the heap
09:10:41 <davidw> hrm
09:10:46 <davidw> I can just use a constant, I guess
09:11:18 <onetom> right
09:11:18 <onetom> then u only have 2 do
09:11:18 <onetom> 1232344353487679 chars allocate throw constant buffer
09:11:47 <onetom> sure
09:12:08 <onetom> varibale is also a kind of constant
09:12:25 <davidw> hrm... 'throw'?
09:12:28 <onetom> it stores its value implicitly
09:12:30 <davidw> I'll look that up
09:13:03 <onetom> namely its stores the addr of the top of the dict
09:13:03 <onetom> throw is just like drop
09:13:35 <onetom> but raises an exception if
09:13:44 <davidw> oops, I have to free the phone like
09:13:46 <onetom> the num on the top of the stack is not 0
09:13:48 <davidw> thanks, and be back in an hour or so!
09:13:54 <davidw> ah, perfect
09:13:58 <onetom> k
09:19:43 <futhin> davidw: it seems like a hack to create a variable (which is basically an item in the dictionary)  and allocate it the size you need, and then start using that.    but you'll get over it :)
09:19:54 <futhin> it isn't a hack after you get used to it
09:19:58 <futhin> it's the way forth is..
09:20:06 <futhin> you can abstract it out
09:20:14 <futhin> you can create a word that creates the array for you
09:35:28 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:53:53 --- join: davidw (~davidw@ppp-211-17.25-151.libero.it) joined #forth
09:56:55 <futhin> [10:16:17] <futhin> davidw: it seems like a hack to create a variable (which is basically an item in the dictionary)  and allocate it the size you need, and then start using that.    but you'll get over it :)
09:56:56 <futhin> [10:16:27] <futhin> it isn't a hack after you get used to it
09:56:56 <futhin> [10:16:32] <futhin> it's the way forth is..
09:56:56 <futhin> [10:16:39] <futhin> you can abstract it out
09:56:56 <futhin> [10:16:47] <futhin> you can create a word that creates the array for you
09:57:48 <davidw> no, what I was saying was a hack was to put the return of 'allocate' inside a variable
09:57:56 <davidw> so that to get the actual address, you would do foo @
09:57:57 <davidw> which sucks
09:58:07 <davidw> instead, using a constant looks like the right thing for me
09:59:17 <futhin> eh?
09:59:29 <futhin> foo  returns the address
09:59:39 <futhin> then you do @ and fetch from that address
10:00:19 <davidw> yes, but I want that address associated with a name
10:01:36 <futhin> associated with what name ?
10:02:26 <davidw> one I choose
10:02:29 <davidw> myarray
10:02:36 <davidw> I did it like onetom suggests
10:02:52 <davidw> x y * cells allocate throw constant myarr
10:03:35 <futhin> so you have:   variable myarray x y * cells allocate throw constant myarr  ?
10:04:38 <davidw> no
10:04:40 <davidw> just the above
10:04:40 <futhin> if you know the length of the array
10:04:43 <futhin> you can just do
10:04:50 <futhin> foo  lenghth +
10:08:08 <davidw> no, you don't understand
10:08:20 <davidw> I don't think, at least
10:08:26 <davidw> I just wanted the above line of code
10:08:58 <futhin> heh
10:10:57 <futhin> i understand, sort of..  and i'm not sure that associating the address with a name is good coding practice ( it is ultimately a variable )
10:11:38 <futhin> but it doesn't really matter
10:11:44 <futhin> as long as you code :P
10:11:59 <futhin> get something working, learn, etc
10:19:43 <onetom> yeah, it also seems a bit strange 4 me, but still... it must b the solution
10:20:20 <onetom> coz its just the synonyme of the other, static solution
10:21:08 <davidw> well, I will use this a lot, so having a name attached to it makes sense
10:21:44 <onetom> but if u free it, the constant will b nonsense
10:22:05 <onetom> and u cant even change it to some kinda NULL
10:22:29 <onetom> but thats not a problem in yr case, coz u dont wanna free it, iguess
10:22:48 <onetom> only @ the end of the prg
10:22:53 <futhin> you can change the constant's value
10:23:05 <futhin> i440r uses constants instead of variables because constants are faster
10:23:30 <futhin> and he treats them like variables :)
10:38:13 <onetom> haahaa
10:38:18 <onetom> but its nonstandard
10:38:57 <onetom> and its implementation dependent wheather constants r faster then vars
10:39:46 <futhin> nonstandard is the only way to go :)
10:40:08 <onetom> but these kind of thing is also a wellknown construct
10:40:17 <onetom> they r the VALUEs
11:20:43 <davidw> is there a way to go from an execution token to it's name?
11:20:48 <davidw> what does find-name do?
11:26:53 <futhin> why do you want to go from an execution token to the word's name ?
11:27:09 <futhin> (what are you trying to do?)
11:27:28 <futhin> i assume you don't want:  (execution token on stack) execute
11:36:41 <davidw> well, I can do that already
11:36:50 <davidw> I'm just curious if I can go the other way, too
11:37:11 <onetom> davidw: there is no standard way of doing it, ithink
11:37:18 <davidw> ok, thanks
11:37:23 <onetom> coz its always implementation dependant
11:37:38 <onetom> and gforth has a very weired structure
11:37:48 <onetom> and its also undocumented :(
11:37:54 <onetom> check the src
11:38:17 <onetom> i also did it when i had 2 use such things
11:38:20 <davidw> well, I don't want anything wierd
11:39:00 <onetom> think so
11:39:51 <onetom> >name ?
11:40:05 <onetom> i use fwords 4 such researches
11:40:11 <onetom> fwords:
11:40:27 <onetom> if [ $# -gt 0 ] ; then
11:40:28 <onetom>         (gforth -e 'words bye') | awk 'BEGIN{RS="[ \t\n]+"} 1' | grep $@ ;
11:40:28 <onetom> else
11:40:28 <onetom>         (gforth -e 'words bye') | awk 'BEGIN{RS="[ \t\n]+"} 1' ;
11:40:28 <onetom> fi
11:41:13 <onetom> : asd ;  ok
11:41:13 <onetom> ' asd >name name>string type asd ok
12:11:10 <davidw> good god this is slow... I think I need to find a C harness to put this stuff in
12:11:57 <futhin> slow? lol
12:12:02 <onetom> what is slow?
12:12:57 <davidw> writing the code
12:13:21 <davidw> it runs fast:-)
12:13:41 <davidw> maybe I just need more than 1 day of experience;-)
12:14:22 <futhin> read some forth books :)
12:14:43 <davidw> got a good one I should buy?
12:14:54 <futhin> you can download Forth Programmer's Handbook.pdf
12:15:13 <davidw> the gforth tutorial is enough to drive one crazy
12:15:19 <davidw> the pforth one is good, but pretty basic
12:15:49 <futhin> if you download swiftforth from forth.com  it comes with  Forth Programmer's Handbook.pdf as well as a manual
12:15:54 <futhin> a forth manual
12:15:55 <futhin> might be good
12:18:55 <davidw> I would spend all my money on books if I could;-)
12:21:39 <davidw> hrm, downloading
12:27:04 <onetom> davidw: whats wrong w gforth tutorial?
12:28:01 <onetom> anyway, i have 2 hungarian books on 4th ;)
12:28:18 <onetom> and also have poor photocopy of starting 4th
12:28:40 <davidw> the gforth tutorial is...hrmmm bad writing
12:28:44 <onetom> thats a very nice piece of work i think, tho
12:29:02 <onetom> havent read it yet just overviewed
12:29:55 <onetom> i also recommend Forth: An Underview by Peter Knaggs
12:30:05 <futhin> Thinking Forth by Leo Brodie was very good
12:30:47 <onetom> it talks about the internals (about those few 1s :)
12:31:21 <onetom> futhin: i wish i have it <sigh> :)
12:32:01 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust188.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
12:34:21 <rob_ert> Hej
12:34:36 <I440r> hi
12:35:15 <davidw> this is fast, though, which is pretty cool
12:35:42 <davidw> I'm so used to working with high level things, though, where i can just say 'sort it!'
12:35:47 <davidw> and it does it...poof
12:36:51 <futhin> forth will eventually be extended more
12:37:01 <futhin> as soon as some of us get off our asses ;)
12:38:01 <davidw> I think it makes sense to write languages on top of it, maybe
12:38:06 <davidw> something like a Tcl-like language would be neat
12:39:39 <futhin> forth has been a very popular language to copy for script languages.  there is PostScript, MUF (TinyMUCK's online programming language), there are some other scripting languages that i can't remember the names of
12:43:43 <I440r> and not one of them has the power or beauty of forth :P
12:49:05 <I440r> i gtg
12:49:14 <I440r> ill be back on l8er tho if i can
12:49:16 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
12:51:15 --- join: Soap- (flop@203-96-105-55.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
12:55:51 --- quit: SoapSleep (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:57:14 <futhin> if forth were extended more high-level
12:57:28 <futhin> it would be more like some of the popular scripting languages that borrow from forth
12:57:33 <futhin> like postscript
12:58:05 <davidw> nah... don't bother extending it
12:58:11 <davidw> write other languages with it
12:58:51 <davidw> who cares though... back to hacking;-)
13:03:05 --- quit: futhin (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
13:03:14 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
13:03:32 --- quit: futhin ()
13:46:54 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth
13:47:23 <onetom> hi
13:50:07 <rob_ert> Hi :)
13:55:01 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
13:56:11 <rob_ert> Hi :)
13:56:32 <MrReach> hihi! how are you?
13:59:03 <rob_ert> Fine :)
13:59:15 <rob_ert> My gravity simulator changed its mind.
13:59:22 <MrReach> oh? about what?
13:59:28 <rob_ert> First it said that the earth was leaving the solar system.
13:59:48 <rob_ert> Now it claims that a year is about 365 days and 8 hours...
13:59:56 <rob_ert> (Yes, I fixed a bug)
14:00:34 <MrReach> hte 2nd sounds good, the first sounds quite undesirable
14:00:43 <onetom> :))
14:00:44 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-14.sat.net) joined #forth
14:00:49 <rob_ert> Hi
14:00:49 <onetom> wow
14:00:50 <MrReach> at least until we figure out how to get *WAY* more power
14:00:56 <rob_ert> :D
14:01:00 <onetom> grand gathering? :)
14:01:04 <MrReach> onetom: ???
14:01:36 <onetom> almost every1 is present
14:01:59 <onetom> I440r & futhin is missing mainly
14:02:05 <MrReach> wnat I440r here? he's online.
14:02:07 <rob_ert> Even little rob_ert is here.
14:02:13 <MrReach> heh
14:02:36 --- quit: onetom (SendQ exceeded)
14:02:46 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
14:02:58 --- quit: onetom (SendQ exceeded)
14:03:04 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
14:03:20 <MrReach> want I440r here? he's online.
14:03:28 <onetom> eh, my client went insane
14:03:37 <Fare> gakuk
14:04:01 <onetom> [@ChanServ ] [ clog     ] [ davidw   ] [ Etaoin   ] [ Fare     ] [ MrReach  ] [ onetom   ] [ rob_ert  ] [ Soap-    ] 
14:04:10 <onetom> i c only these ppl
14:07:42 <MrReach> I440r *IS* online, but he's not on IRC
14:08:57 <MrReach> he's on his way
14:09:03 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust232.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
14:09:26 <I440r> hi :)
14:09:28 <I440r> hi mrreach
14:09:30 <I440r> im doing an n^2-1 puzzle solver in isforth 
14:09:48 <I440r> actually, the main part is done already - just the brains to do now
14:09:49 <MrReach> greets
14:10:01 <rob_ert> A planet has its max. orbital velocity in perihelion, right?
14:10:03 <I440r> wrote it in one day - twiddled what i got for a day - now i do the brains :)
14:10:15 <MrReach> I'm updating M$ activeSync on this machine, which will probably entail a reboot shortly
14:10:20 <I440r> if thats whyen its closest yes
14:10:32 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear")
14:10:42 <I440r> doh fare went afk :(
14:10:46 <rob_ert> OK, thanks.
14:10:53 <MrReach> rob_ert: no, epihelion I think ... whichever point is closest to the sun
14:11:04 <I440r> im trying to remember whose law that is
14:11:15 <I440r> the planets sweep out equal areas in equal time
14:11:50 <MrReach> yes
14:12:08 <MrReach> the guy that died of a rutured bladder?
14:12:16 <I440r> grr i cant remember whose law that is heh
14:12:17 <rob_ert> aphelion = far away from the sun
14:12:30 <Etaoin> Kepler's law
14:12:34 <I440r> yes
14:12:36 <I440r> thats him
14:12:42 <rob_ert> Kepler :)
14:12:52 <I440r> did he die of a ruptured bladder ?
14:12:54 <I440r> ouch!
14:13:00 <rob_ert> what's that?
14:13:01 <Etaoin> I don't know
14:13:07 <MrReach> ok, thanks rob_ert, I've always gotten the two confused
14:13:22 <Etaoin> I haven't studied orbital stuff formally
14:13:47 <MrReach> I440r: yes, he was having dinner with an astromer who was jealous of him, and refused to excuse him from the table
14:13:53 <rob_ert> Formal education teaches you...non-interesting things :)
14:14:18 <I440r> and he stayed ?
14:14:26 <Etaoin> eh, it's been getting better lately
14:14:44 <I440r> i never had any "formal" education
14:14:48 <I440r> sometimes it shows heh
14:15:00 <I440r> but mostly it shows in my code
14:15:34 <rob_ert> Etaoin: Yes, it's good, too.
14:15:43 <rob_ert> Etaoin: But certainly not enough-.
14:15:51 <rob_ert> The personal interest must be there.
14:17:36 <onetom> formal education seems nonsense 4 yrs, but
14:17:40 <I440r> anyone want to see my n2-1 puzzle solver?
14:17:44 <I440r> it doesnt solve yet tho heh
14:18:05 <onetom> l8r 1 could recognize the usefulness of it..
14:18:23 <I440r> er hang on - ive introduced a bug :P
14:18:23 <onetom> I440r: id b happy 2 have a look @ it
14:18:29 <I440r> it b0rks heh
14:18:32 <I440r> brb
14:18:32 <Etaoin> I440r: what is it exactly?
14:18:48 <onetom> plz introduce that bug also 2 me ;)
14:18:52 <MrReach> I440r: it sometimes shows in your language ... you sometimes don't have names for concepts in computer science
14:19:06 <MrReach> (although you seem to have 'stack' down pat    @:^)
14:19:09 <I440r> mrreach i know - but i have the concepts :)
14:19:18 <I440r> which are all self realised
14:19:25 <MrReach> yep
14:19:31 <I440r> ya! i know that word :)
14:19:39 <I440r> heh
14:19:55 <I440r> i know the OOP word too - thas as much as i want to know about it :P
14:20:04 * MrReach makes no comment
14:20:11 <onetom> I440r: so, where can i dl the puzzle solver from?
14:20:19 * Etaoin makes a comment
14:20:37 * onetom sad about it
14:21:01 <MrReach> sad about no formal education? don't be, for heaven's sake
14:21:21 <MrReach> *HUGE* waste of money, except for the people you meet
14:21:33 * onetom sad about he doesnt want 2 know more about OOP
14:21:48 <MrReach> in which case, people should pay all that money for GEs ... which nobody will, of course
14:21:55 <MrReach> ah! ok
14:21:57 <onetom> hehe - its almost 4 free in hungary :)
14:22:03 <Soap-> Where do you live, MrReach?
14:22:03 <I440r> ok guyys
14:22:06 <I440r> look in my ftp
14:22:08 <I440r> get nn
14:22:11 <I440r> thats the executable
14:22:17 <MrReach> I'm in Spokane, Washington, USA right now
14:22:20 <I440r> ill release the sources once i got the brains done 
14:22:24 <I440r> should maybe be 2 dzays
14:22:28 <I440r> 3 at the most :)
14:22:31 <MrReach> will be in Seattle region by this upcoming winter
14:22:37 <Soap-> Hmmm. How expensive is university in the US?
14:22:47 <davidw> plenty
14:22:54 <MrReach> about $15,000/yr
14:23:01 <Soap-> Jebus.
14:23:22 <MrReach> heh, by the time you count *ALL* your expenses
14:23:47 <MrReach> an apartment, electricity, meals, etc
14:24:17 <onetom> eh, who cares about the executable!? wheres the code?
14:24:37 <I440r> you can have that in 2 or 3 days :P
14:24:55 <onetom> anyway, its any eyecandy ;)
14:24:59 * MrReach wonders what he was doing before he got distracted thinking about college
14:26:17 <Soap-> You were in the process of giving me all your worldly posessions, I believe.
14:26:24 <I440r> lol
14:26:29 <I440r> he doesnt have any :)
14:26:32 <Soap-> Bah.
14:26:36 <Soap-> It was worth a try :/
14:26:37 <MrReach> heh, not quite
14:27:31 <MrReach> but you can't have my things ... I *LIKE* them
14:27:49 <onetom> Level 3   Move   47  Undo    0
14:27:53 <onetom> Disance   0
14:28:02 <onetom> it should b Distance iguess
14:29:11 <I440r> oopts
14:29:17 <I440r> i thunked i had corrected that one
14:29:19 <I440r> doh
14:29:26 <I440r> in fact i distinctly remember doing so heh
14:29:42 <I440r> the menu items are all shifted except - and =
14:29:52 <I440r> unshifted keypresses mean move that piece
14:30:04 <I440r> ill make a better movement interface later using cursor keys heh
14:30:41 <MrReach> arg! I have to download PowerToys for CE
14:30:42 * onetom :) really likes it! he thinks its magnificent ;)
14:31:38 <MrReach> what is magnificent?
14:31:47 <onetom> nn is
14:32:09 <I440r> heh
14:32:30 <I440r> if ur on an x86 linux box mrreach its in my ftp
14:32:31 <I440r> im doing the brains to it now
14:33:02 <I440r> and ill have it do benchmarking too - seed the random number generator - do N random moves - always reaches same point
14:33:09 * onetom begs 4 the srces
14:33:18 <I440r> then see how long it takes the computer to solve the 3x3, 4x4 5x5 and 6x6 puzzles
14:33:25 <I440r> ill release it in a cpl of days
14:33:27 * onetom is curious about the terminal stuff
14:33:30 <I440r> its not top secret shit :)
14:33:36 <I440r> oh thats eash stuff heh
14:33:57 <onetom> if its that EZ, plzplzplz share it!
14:34:02 <I440r> i will
14:34:24 <MrReach> *INTERESTING* ... delosoft dsforth comes with microsoft power toys
14:34:41 <onetom> i definitely would like 2 do some simulations on char screen
14:34:41 <I440r> lol
14:34:50 <I440r> its a well known fact that m$ uses forth
14:35:25 <MrReach> dsforth is pretty broken
14:35:33 <I440r> in what way ?
14:35:45 <MrReach> no console, for one ... all batch driven
14:35:53 <I440r> ugh
14:36:15 <I440r> u know the old forth buletin board system was coded ENTIRELY in batch?
14:36:16 <MrReach> the rest I don't know, I chose not to play with it if no console
14:36:20 <onetom> broken... into pieces? :)
14:36:42 <MrReach> I440r: are you talking about The Snail's Place ???
14:37:06 <I440r> not sure - it went defunked YEARS ago - it was a whole ring of BBS's dedicated to forth
14:37:09 <I440r> all coordinated
14:37:12 <I440r> sort of like fido
14:37:15 <MrReach> oh! ok
14:37:18 <I440r> but written ENTIRELY in dos batch
14:37:23 <MrReach> it was probably WWIV then
14:37:45 <I440r> my dad was a sysop back then and was going to join them 
14:37:53 <I440r> offered to rewrite their system in FORTH for them
14:38:01 <I440r> but they were in LOVE with the batch 
14:38:02 <I440r> duh
14:38:24 <MrReach> The Snail's Place was the only bulletin board written *IN* Forth ... I knew the author in Sacramento
14:38:58 <MrReach> she was one of the total wierdos I told you about
14:39:04 <MrReach> lots of fun, though
14:39:15 <I440r> she ???
14:39:24 <I440r> she wouldnt be "dianora" would she ?
14:39:28 <I440r> erm no
14:39:30 <I440r> she is in canada
14:39:44 <MrReach> no, Lady Bacardi
14:39:52 <I440r> real time embedded control applications software engineer, also one of the MAIN coders on the dalnet ircd
14:40:08 <MrReach> oh? that's cool!
14:40:40 <I440r> yes. but she is a cook heh
14:40:45 <I440r> a DAMNED good coder tho
14:40:59 <I440r> when i first got interested in doing bots i grabbed the ircd soruces for dal
14:41:03 <I440r> they were a MESS
14:41:23 <I440r> the ONLY code in there that didnt look hacked on by 400 different people was all signed dianora
14:41:39 <I440r> they have tidied it up alot since then tho heh
14:42:13 <onetom> hm, cool story :)
14:42:28 <I440r> she also used to code forth
14:42:38 <I440r> i asked her if she wanted to help with isforth
14:42:48 <I440r> she couldnt understand why i was even considering isforth heh
14:42:51 <MrReach> I440r: was her real first name "Mary"?
14:42:58 <I440r> not sure
14:43:10 <I440r> i know her real name but i cant remember it
14:44:50 <I440r> onetom quit nn - restart it - hit shift R and see how many moves it takes you to solve from that position
14:44:53 <I440r> i can do it in 23 moves
14:45:19 <onetom> doesnt it depends on the actual
14:45:25 <onetom> randomization?
14:46:05 <I440r> its a psudo random number generator
14:46:13 <onetom> aha
14:46:13 <I440r> so if you start with the same seed you randomize identically
14:46:17 <I440r> close ennuff
14:46:24 <onetom> well it took 47 steps 4 the 1st time
14:46:27 <I440r> and i wanted to be able to start from a KNOWN random location
14:46:42 <I440r> press - till you undo all moves and try again
14:46:56 <I440r> if you have randomized since then you need to restart the game to get to that position
14:47:12 <I440r> ill add a "zero seed" option later
14:47:46 <onetom> sure, but how can i extract the srces from it? ;)
14:47:58 <davidw> http://www.db.net/~db/
14:48:09 <I440r> heh
14:48:32 <I440r> actuallym about 2k of that executable is the game code heh
14:48:36 <I440r> the rest is the forth kernel :P
14:49:41 <onetom> davidw: shes a guy w a long hair :I
14:50:36 <davidw> she has a 'partner'
14:50:37 <davidw> hrm
14:50:41 <I440r> thats here
14:50:46 <I440r> dianne somethig or other
14:50:48 <I440r> is this a foto of her ?
14:50:55 <I440r> ya
14:51:04 <I440r> i think she has showed me this foto
14:52:04 <onetom> 'partner'? umean, an other gal?
14:52:16 <I440r> she is married
14:52:19 <I440r> and has a daughter
15:04:00 --- quit: rob_ert (Remote closed the connection)
15:05:03 <onetom> winamp.com - skins - Hand Written
15:09:18 <davidw> no, this lack of temp variables is enough to drive one insane
15:09:47 <I440r> why ?
15:09:56 <I440r> u mean locals ?
15:10:01 <I440r> just use the stack :P
15:10:53 <davidw> yes, but trying to remember in your head all the locations is a pain in the ass
15:10:58 <davidw> it's unproductive
15:11:58 <onetom> davidw: its not that inproductive
15:12:32 <onetom> while u had a headache because of it
15:13:06 <onetom> u dont compose yr code in a 4thish way enough
15:13:18 <I440r> david once you get used to it it becomes natural!
15:13:20 <I440r> realy does
15:13:26 <I440r> and you would never want to go back
15:13:30 <onetom> (as the average 4th programmer would say :)
15:14:04 <onetom> davidw: if u show us yr problem, probably we could enlighten u
15:14:21 <onetom> (and we also do some practice @ least :)
15:15:07 <onetom> som phun: http://www.engrish.com/
15:29:06 <onetom> I440r: http://home.earthlink.net/~neilbawd/calencal.html
15:29:14 <onetom> some calendar stuff
15:29:59 <I440r> cool :)
15:37:26 <onetom> whats the diff between I and R@ ?
15:37:37 <I440r> depends on the forth
15:37:45 <I440r> on isforth i has to do a calculation to get the index
15:38:08 <I440r> because of the way do loops fudge the start and end index
15:38:30 <onetom> ah, got it
15:39:59 <davidw> any way to break out of loops?
15:40:03 <I440r> yes
15:40:06 <I440r> undo
15:40:34 <I440r> undo doesnt exit the loop tho, it just removes the indicies from the return stack
15:41:04 <davidw> fucking hell... ugh
15:41:10 <davidw> this is insane
15:41:47 <I440r> what is ?
15:41:57 <I440r> you would do
15:42:07 <davidw> Spock to Kirk -- "I am attempting to make a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins"
15:42:10 <I440r> : foo 10 0 do i 5 = if undo exit then loop ;
15:42:28 <I440r> spock could do it :)
15:42:38 <I440r> mcgyver eat your heart out :P
15:42:39 <davidw> spock would use scheme
15:42:41 <davidw> no questions
15:43:06 <davidw> and emacs
15:43:40 <I440r> ugh
15:43:53 <I440r> spock would have invented forth if it didnt exist already :P
15:44:42 <davidw> no way, he is a scheme kind of dude
15:45:22 <I440r> er a forther would know different :)
15:45:24 <I440r> spock was a forther
15:45:27 <I440r> very logical heh
15:46:53 <davidw> logical yes - he would skip these low level things to concentrate on the logic of the problem instead of bit-twiddling
15:47:03 <davidw> leaving that to the computer, which is good at it
15:47:15 <I440r> spock twiddles bits in his brain :P
15:47:30 <I440r> bit twiddling to a logic master is second nature :)
15:56:28 <onetom> davidw: some example of handling lots of data on stack
15:56:29 <onetom>     : Fetch-Message-Digest   ( -- e d c b a )
15:56:29 <onetom>         4 CELLS Message-Digest +       ( addr)
15:56:29 <onetom>             DUP @ SWAP CELL -          ( e addr)
15:56:29 <onetom>             DUP @ SWAP CELL -          ( e d addr)
15:56:29 <onetom>             DUP @ SWAP CELL -          ( e d c addr)
15:56:31 <onetom>             DUP @ SWAP CELL -          ( e d c b addr)
15:56:33 <onetom>                 @ ;                    ( e d c b a) 
15:56:37 <onetom>  
15:56:46 <onetom>     : Add-to-Message-Digest  ( e d c b a -- )
15:56:47 <onetom>         Message-Digest                 ( e d c b a addr)
15:56:47 <onetom>             TUCK +! CELL+              ( e d c b addr)
15:56:47 <onetom>             TUCK +! CELL+              ( e d c addr)
15:56:49 <onetom>             TUCK +! CELL+              ( e d addr)
15:56:51 <onetom>             TUCK +! CELL+              ( e addr)
15:56:53 <onetom>                  +! ;                  ( ) 
15:56:55 <onetom>  
15:57:30 <I440r> i would use do loops  ( addr ) 4 0 do i over + @ loop
15:57:42 <I440r> erm make that i 4 * over + @
15:57:42 <I440r> heh
15:57:48 <I440r> or cell * 
15:57:50 <I440r> if you insist
15:58:20 <onetom> cell * is cells
16:09:20 <I440r> i know
16:09:29 <I440r> and i dont define cell or cell+ or cell*
16:09:35 <I440r> its must more politicaluy correct bullshit
16:11:00 <onetom> it aims compatibility & portability
16:11:11 <onetom> but iknow u dont care of those
16:11:21 <I440r> like i said - political bullshit :)
16:11:47 <I440r> the overhead for writing it for the specific target is insignificant in forth
16:16:15 <onetom> eh, u always think in small projects...
16:16:52 <I440r> no
16:16:53 <onetom> but, anyway, i some1 wants 2 run a 4th prg on other platforms
16:17:04 <I440r> if its a LARGE project it needs to be redesigned
16:17:31 <onetom> he probably dont want 2 rewrite or even understand it
16:17:52 <onetom> eeh, dont b stupid, man!
16:18:06 <onetom> there ARE large projects
16:18:28 <onetom> exist
16:19:26 <I440r> yea. and they all need to be redesigned heh
16:19:39 <I440r> you break big problems down into lots of small problems
16:19:59 <onetom> just think of a game, eg
16:20:07 <onetom> thats a large prj
16:29:07 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:51:05 <MrReach> heh
16:51:31 <MrReach> sometimes opinion gets in the way of truth
16:51:31 <I440r> hi
16:51:47 <I440r> u mean what i was saying
16:51:58 <I440r> it is opinion but im basing it on experience
16:52:18 <I440r> there are a hell of alot of projects i have worked on that I could have coded in a 10th of the code
16:52:24 <MrReach> usually, it doesn't matter ... but sometimes it's disasterous
16:56:38 <MrReach> I think it amusing that you logged onto IRC and then immediately started disparaging OOP
16:57:03 <MrReach> because I had spent the entire morning mapping out classes for the PDA software
16:57:12 <I440r> heh
16:57:30 <I440r> oop isnt bad. not always
16:57:39 <I440r> there are some parts of oop that i like
16:57:44 <I440r> but i cant THINK oop
16:57:54 <MrReach> I just thought it amusing that you chose when you did to bring it up
16:58:20 <I440r> heh
16:58:52 <MrReach> this channel often goes 4-6 months w/o mentioning OOP
16:59:07 <onetom> I440r: tho, its worth learning OOP...
16:59:08 <I440r> hehe
16:59:30 <I440r> i tried. but i had the same reaction to it that ihad to c
16:59:35 <I440r> the more i read, the less i knew
16:59:40 <I440r> and the more i disliked what i read
16:59:45 <I440r> i stopped reading
17:00:26 <I440r> anyway - im gona go code the brains for my n^-1 thingie
17:00:29 <MrReach> I like the idea of a software entity that has it's own identity outside of the program in which it is placed
17:00:32 <I440r> then i can release the sources heh
17:00:37 <MrReach> ok
17:00:53 <I440r> been browsing for job
17:00:56 <I440r> its depressing me
17:01:11 <MrReach> heh, don't lose heart
17:01:12 <I440r> "real time embedded control applications visual basic programmers wanted"
17:01:13 <I440r> ugh
17:01:25 <MrReach> HA! an oxymoron!
17:01:26 <I440r> im starting to
17:01:31 <I440r> definatly
17:01:42 <I440r> i say OOP and real time are mutually exclusive
17:01:58 <I440r> i even say embedded and C are mutually exclusive
17:02:02 <I440r> never mind c++
17:02:07 <I440r> neway
17:02:15 <MrReach> yoiu should call them, "It's *REALLY* hard to do real-time programming until you dump microsoft windows."
17:02:24 <I440r> off to cry over no job and code some useless bullshit :)
17:02:48 <onetom> ive written plotter motor control program in
17:02:52 <onetom> oop
17:03:04 <I440r> sometimes im tempted to write these people some realy long detailing exactly how far up their asses they have their heads :)
17:03:09 <onetom> i wrote, imean :)
17:03:17 <I440r> :)
17:03:18 <I440r> neway
17:03:22 <I440r> nite nite :)
17:03:29 <MrReach> be well, I440r
17:03:37 <onetom> but i think we should do some "contest"
17:03:41 --- quit: I440r ("abort" gotta code :)"")
17:03:42 <onetom> in this area...
17:03:43 <MrReach> oh?
17:03:58 <MrReach> OOP vs. nonOOP?
17:04:00 <onetom> :)) he has run away
17:04:01 <MrReach> in Forth?
17:04:06 <onetom> yes
17:04:08 <MrReach> he was off-color
17:04:41 <MrReach> well, the non-oop stuff often ends up looking like OOP stuff w/o the encapsulation
17:05:03 * MrReach writes a book, "The care and feeding of your data structures."
17:05:27 <onetom> aha, thats right :)
17:05:40 <onetom> so its oop actually
17:06:05 <MrReach> no, encapsulation is a prerequisite of OOP
17:06:11 <onetom> wo the help of any simplifing constructs
17:06:51 <MrReach> in regular forth, one has a data structure that is filled in, and then consulted
17:07:11 <MrReach> in OOP, that same structure still exists, but you can't get at it directly
17:07:32 <MrReach> hence you can't put garbage in it
17:07:46 <MrReach> (in theory)
17:10:00 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
17:19:45 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
17:21:13 --- part: qless left #forth
18:09:09 --- quit: Etaoin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:09:48 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
18:37:30 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
18:37:42 <qless> heya forthers
18:46:52 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth
18:47:04 --- part: aaronl left #forth
18:53:10 <futhin> forthers? where?!
18:53:12 * futhin runs and hides!
18:53:40 * qless the Forth Column marches into openprojects and decrees a new law
18:55:22 <futhin> The Forth Source LAW: Ye must code in blocks!
18:56:28 <futhin> The Forth King: I am king of kings, look upon my works ye mighty and despair!
18:56:47 <futhin> blah blah ozymandias blah blah
18:57:02 <qless> the Forth Estate
19:09:47 <futhin> i don't know why i come on here
19:09:52 <futhin> i'm just distracting myself!
19:09:54 <futhin> heh
19:09:56 --- quit: futhin ("byebye")
19:48:29 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-146.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
19:48:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
19:48:35 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:48:57 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
19:49:06 <MrReach> hihi!
19:49:18 <TheBlueWizard> hiya MrReach!
19:49:22 <TheBlueWizard> whassup?
19:50:15 <MrReach> trying to get tcl/tk running on my pocketpc
19:50:40 <MrReach> what's new for you?
19:50:49 <TheBlueWizard> pocketpc is a WinCE thingie, right?
19:50:55 <MrReach> yup
19:51:13 <MrReach> otherwise prob wouldn't be able to run that language
19:52:06 <TheBlueWizard> I think I found a working packet sniffer for Win95...I tried windump, and it bombed...tried dasniff, seems to be working...plan to download onto relevant Win95 box now
19:52:37 <MrReach> heh, what a PITA for such a simple program
19:52:43 * TheBlueWizard nods re: pocketpc....he doesn't trust anything from M$ ;)
19:53:02 <MrReach> of course, embedding yourself into the OS so as to interecpt packets is anything but simple
19:53:49 <MrReach> well, it's been very reliable so far
19:53:59 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...but I'm desperate...I need to determine WTF the email client is sending out on one Win95; it is the only one that is working; the Linux version (fetchmail) doesn't work and I need to find out why
19:54:09 <MrReach> only crashed once, and that was when I ran some funky third-party software
19:54:18 <MrReach> (like I'm about to do now)
19:54:47 <MrReach> what's it connecting to???
19:54:51 <TheBlueWizard> heh...yeah...M$ products tend to destabilize when third party software are added
19:54:54 <MrReach> POP3?
19:55:04 <TheBlueWizard> a POP3 server, yeah
19:55:23 <MrReach> what's not to work? the protocol is incredibly simple
19:55:49 <MrReach> heh, I can check POP3 by hand
19:56:04 <TheBlueWizard> I set up a test machine with Win95 installed, IE4 installed...could connect to Internet and browse alright just like my other Win95, but the email, configured the same way, doesn't work
19:56:27 <TheBlueWizard> I'm stumped at the moment (actually for months)
19:57:01 <MrReach> you're sure it's not trying to talk IMAP?
19:57:10 <MrReach> (is that the name of the other protocol?)
19:57:35 <MrReach> what is the server running on?
19:58:35 <TheBlueWizard> definitely not IMAP (the IE option panel clearly shows a POP selection versus IMAP)
19:58:53 <TheBlueWizard> no idea what ISP server runs on....
19:59:18 <MrReach> I was thinking it might be an oddity at the server
19:59:39 <MrReach> funny that one machine can read it while others running the same software can't
20:00:04 <MrReach> you say one win95 can collect mail, and the win95 machine sitting next to it can't??
20:00:42 <TheBlueWizard> yeah....I'm surprised...at first I thought it might be M$-related "trick"...but apparently it isn't that M$-specific stuff...hence the need for sniffing
20:00:51 <MrReach> erm ... might it be that the server is only allowing once connection from your IP ??
20:00:51 <TheBlueWizard> that's right
20:01:21 <TheBlueWizard> I only have phone connection; no local networking at all (yet ;)
20:01:41 <MrReach> oh, so two at once is unlikely
20:01:41 <TheBlueWizard> so to use the other machine I must move wires around
20:01:58 <MrReach> that's WIERD
20:02:15 <MrReach> thank god I don't have that problem       @:^>
20:02:17 <TheBlueWizard> yup...weird is the operative word
20:02:32 <TheBlueWizard> heh...but at least I'm learning!!!!
20:02:58 <MrReach> yeah, learning that M$ networking is short on tools
20:03:03 <TheBlueWizard> nothing forces one to learn a lot like encountering an unusual and weird problem!
20:03:36 <MrReach> that's true
20:03:48 <TheBlueWizard> yup...M$ tools are pretty lame...that's why third party tools are on market... :P
20:04:09 <MrReach> I'm learning that software installation on HP Jornada's is not as straightforward as on Win98 or Linux machines
20:04:09 * qless hears the name of the Beast and spits
20:04:29 <TheBlueWizard> by the way, I can't use Ethereal on the test Win95 box cuz it got only 256 color video...hehe
20:05:03 <TheBlueWizard> heh....that's why I'm avoiding M$ products like plague ;)
20:05:24 <MrReach> I like the pretty windowing
20:05:35 <MrReach> but it crashes all the time
20:05:48 <MrReach> so I use Linux on critical tasks
20:06:57 <TheBlueWizard> heh...there's a saying: "The best lies are gift wrapped ones" :)
20:07:04 <MrReach> I'd like to hear MS say "For Win02, the goal is to put the core OS in two megabytes of disk space"
20:07:51 <MrReach> anyway, dinner time
20:07:58 <MrReach> good luck with the mail thing
20:08:03 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
20:08:15 <TheBlueWizard> put that on just one floppy....hey, QNX pulled off this stunt (go to www.qnx.com, and somewhere there is a demo image)
20:08:41 <qless> qnx = scaleable.  doze = disposable
20:08:52 <MrGone> HAHAHA!
20:09:00 <qless> :-)
20:10:39 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
20:49:04 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
20:49:13 <qless> see ya bluewiz
20:49:18 <TheBlueWizard> bye qless
20:49:24 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
21:14:31 * qless looks around
22:39:31 --- part: qless left #forth
22:39:54 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
23:26:49 --- join: _MrReach_ (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
23:27:02 --- quit: MrGone (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:45:42 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.03.27