00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.26
01:16:15 <rob_ert> Hi
01:23:19 <davidw> hi
01:48:31 <onetom> hi
03:31:46 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:34:40 --- join: Soap` (flop@210-55-82-164.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
04:20:06 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:45:39 --- quit: futhin ()
09:18:53 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
10:06:51 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
10:07:47 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
10:14:59 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@p5084753F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
10:16:56 <rob_ert> Hi
10:24:30 <onetom> hi
10:30:36 <futhin> rob_ert:  there is >= and =<
10:30:41 <futhin> er
10:30:48 <futhin> there is >= and <= 
10:30:49 <futhin> i lied
10:30:57 <rob_ert> Hu?
10:31:00 <rob_ert> Where?
10:31:07 <rob_ert> Forth?
10:31:08 <onetom> those r not standards
10:31:21 <onetom> chk the end of the gforth doc
10:31:27 <rob_ert> I though so, too
10:31:31 <rob_ert> thought*
10:31:51 <futhin> onetom: what are we supposed to use if we don't have >=  ?
10:32:40 <onetom> futhin: discuss these problems here
10:32:53 <onetom> 1st:
10:33:14 <onetom> we have 2 stick w < 0= or u< 0=
10:33:46 <onetom> but theres a glossary of words @ the end of gforth doc
10:35:06 <onetom> it also enlists 
10:35:22 <onetom> which word belongs 2 what wordlist
10:36:18 <onetom> 4th is absolutely not orthogonal @ this area
10:36:53 <onetom> 2nd: begin until doesnt use the return stack
10:37:25 <onetom> so u have to manually maintain a counter
10:37:39 <onetom> like:
10:38:11 <onetom> : test 0 (this is the counter) begin dup . 1+ key? until ;
10:41:43 <onetom> or u can store the counter on the return stack, so u can access the input params
10:42:35 <futhin> <futhin> onetom: what are we supposed to use if we don't have >=  ?
10:42:35 <futhin> <onetom> futhin: discuss these problems here
10:42:58 <onetom> imeant not on #forthos
10:43:12 <futhin> i didn't say it in #forthos :P
10:43:29 <futhin> unless you are talking about : test
10:43:31 <futhin> yeah
10:44:23 <onetom> [07:31] <futhin:#forthos> : test begin >r dup . r> key? until ; 
10:44:32 <futhin> yeah
10:44:38 <futhin> i thought you were refering to the >=
10:44:39 <onetom> i was refered 2 the 2nd proloblem
10:44:42 <futhin> yeah
10:44:46 <onetom> no! both
10:44:55 <futhin> the >= was in #forth
10:44:57 <futhin> so ..
10:45:19 <onetom> so if i say discuss them here
10:45:28 <futhin> yeah
10:45:31 <futhin> i gotcha
10:45:43 <onetom> that means discuss all the others ALSO here
10:46:01 <onetom> certainly it could b a bit misleading in such a
10:46:10 <onetom> boundary case
10:46:31 <onetom> when we r talkin about just 2 things
10:49:03 <onetom> i was i bit mathematically/logically correct, iguess ;)
10:52:31 <futhin> no, not really :P
10:53:09 <onetom> yes, i was >PPP
10:53:12 <onetom> :)
10:54:27 <futhin> do SEE WORDS and tell me why i can't remove
10:54:29 <futhin> dup >r + cols >=
10:54:29 <futhin>          IF     cr nip 0 swap
10:54:29 <futhin>          THEN
10:54:49 <futhin> i should be able to remove that
10:55:43 <onetom> <thingin>
10:55:46 <onetom> <thinkin>
10:56:37 <onetom> u kidding?
10:56:48 <onetom> u wanna remove all of these?
10:57:08 <onetom> ( n1 n2 R: )
10:57:14 <onetom> dup >r
10:57:16 <futhin> it gets consumed by >= and if
10:57:18 <onetom> ( n1 n2 R: n2 )
10:57:20 <futhin> so i should be able to get rid of it
10:57:29 <onetom> +
10:57:35 <onetom> ( n1+n2 R: n2 )
10:57:40 <onetom> cols >=
10:57:51 <onetom> ( flag R: n2 )
10:58:16 <onetom> so what removes n2 from the return stack
10:59:13 <futhin> ( n1 ) dup
10:59:13 <futhin> ( n1 n1 ) r> +
10:59:13 <futhin> ( n1 n2 ) cols
10:59:13 <futhin> ( n1 n2 n3 ) >=
10:59:13 <futhin> ( n1 bool ) IF THEN
10:59:14 <futhin> ( n1 )
10:59:24 <futhin> so i should be able to remove all that
10:59:31 <futhin> and remove the >r later in the code
10:59:56 <futhin> but
11:00:06 <futhin> it's giving me a problem at the 2nd name>string
11:00:36 <onetom> but the 1st time u told me: >r + not r> +
11:00:39 <futhin> so i'm more worried about that than the >r that is later in the code
11:01:08 <futhin> yeah, oops
11:01:12 <futhin> its supposed to be
11:01:15 <futhin> >r +
11:01:22 <futhin> (what you SEE in WORDS )
11:01:26 <futhin> before the IF
11:01:46 <futhin> >r puts the number into return?
11:01:47 <futhin> hm
11:01:51 <onetom> but yr stack diagram is also wrong
11:01:56 <futhin> yup
11:02:01 <futhin> i thought it was getting a value
11:02:04 <onetom> ok, think it over abain
11:02:19 <onetom> just imagine it visually
11:02:37 <onetom> the "arrow" shows the direction of dataflow
11:02:56 <onetom> >xxx means put sg 2 xxx
11:03:07 <onetom> xxx> get sg FROM xxx
11:03:20 <onetom> its a common notation
11:03:29 <futhin> yes, i know :P
11:03:53 <onetom> there is a coding style what gathers all these naming conventions 2gether
11:03:59 <onetom> alright then
11:04:13 <futhin> just a slip
11:04:13 <futhin> heh
11:04:36 <futhin> there are two fundamental categories of errors a human makes:  slips and mistakes
11:04:40 <futhin> i made a slip
11:24:54 <futhin> davidw
11:24:57 <futhin> i think i figured it out
11:24:58 <futhin> : numberofwords
11:24:58 <futhin>   cr 0 context @ wordlist-id
11:24:58 <futhin>   begin
11:24:58 <futhin>   @ dup while                   ( n1 n2 )
11:25:00 <futhin>   dup name>string nip           ( n1 n2 n2 => n1 n2 C )
11:25:02 <futhin>   rot + swap                    ( n2 C n1 => n2 C => C n2 )
11:25:04 <futhin>   repeat
11:25:06 <futhin>   . . ;
11:25:08 <futhin> onetom
11:25:16 <futhin> er
11:25:17 <futhin> no
11:25:18 <futhin> its wrong
11:26:21 <futhin> lemme fix it
11:27:31 <onetom> and dont 4get the stack diagram after the word def
11:27:33 <onetom> !
11:27:40 <onetom> (  -- n )
11:27:55 <futhin> yeah whatever :P
11:28:08 <futhin> chuck moore sez stack diagram is poor coding ;)
11:28:14 <onetom> 4 such a word, i could recommend that stack effect
11:28:23 <onetom> w some fresh vegetables 
11:28:30 <futhin> heh
11:28:34 <onetom> and some dry wine ;)
11:28:36 <futhin> and some sausages?
11:28:49 <onetom> yup
11:28:51 * futhin is wondering how to make a stew out of sausages and potatoes!?
11:29:00 <futhin> what would you add?
11:29:02 <futhin> onion?
11:29:03 <onetom> why does moore thinks so?
11:29:03 <futhin> water?
11:29:32 <onetom> futhin: i dont know how 2 cook
11:29:50 <futhin> moore thinks so because that means the words aren't as understandable as they should be.  if they are as understandable as they should be, you wouldn't need stack effects..   something like that, not sure if i know why chuck moore thinks so
11:29:58 <onetom> beside that, i dont even understand the hungarian terminology of cooking
11:30:58 <onetom> so plz dont expect me knowing english terminology ;)
11:31:10 <futhin> heh
11:31:24 <onetom> eg, i dont know what is a stew
11:31:31 <futhin> stew is a soup basically
11:31:54 <onetom> my dict says:
11:31:59 <futhin> except soup is fine-grained ( all the particles in it are small)  stew is more chunky, bigger chunks of stuff
11:31:59 <onetom> stew [sztjú]  pörkölt, zûrzavar, izgalom, haltartó medence, osztrigaponk, rossz
11:31:59 <onetom>     hírû mulató, bordélyház, párolt hús, ragu
11:31:59 <onetom> to stew [sztjú]  párol, fõz, párolódik, fõ
11:32:12 <davidw> huhuhuhu
11:32:13 <davidw> yeah
11:32:13 <onetom> zûrzavar = confusion
11:32:19 <futhin> lol
11:32:25 <futhin> that's one definition
11:32:28 <onetom> bordélyház = red lamp house
11:32:34 <davidw> isn't a goulash a kind of stew?
11:32:35 <futhin> The person was stewing over the problem..
11:32:40 <onetom> izgalom = excitement
11:32:42 <onetom>  ; )
11:32:44 <davidw> bordello
11:33:30 <futhin> : numberofwords  ( -- n )
11:33:30 <futhin>   cr 0 context @ wordlist-id
11:33:30 <futhin>   begin
11:33:30 <futhin>   @ dup while                   ( 0 n2 )
11:33:30 <futhin>   swap 1+ swap 
11:33:30 <futhin>   repeat
11:33:32 <futhin>   . drop ;
11:33:34 <onetom> davidw: actually i dont know what is "gulyás"
11:33:37 <futhin> it just returns a 0 :(
11:33:56 <onetom> davidw: i use it as a prefix, like: goulach soup
11:34:45 <onetom> but probably - standing alone - it refers 2 the goulach stew
11:35:29 <onetom> but it sounds strange 4 me @ the moment, when im uttering gulyás pörkölt" :-/
11:36:22 <onetom> futhin: what do u think wordlist-id so?
11:36:24 <onetom> do?
11:36:38 <futhin> heh, no idea :P
11:36:47 <futhin> i'm just hax0ring the WORDS definition
11:36:53 <futhin> so that i can count the number of words
11:37:17 <onetom> but if u dont know what it is, u also dont know what is the stack effect of it
11:37:33 <futhin> i tested it on its own
11:38:06 <onetom> and where is the code what steps 2 the next word?
11:38:13 <futhin> the stuff inside the begin repeat loop
11:38:16 <futhin> is more important
11:39:15 <futhin> context @ wordlist-id    returns a number (address) on the stack
11:39:16 <futhin> doing @
11:39:22 <futhin> returns another address
11:39:26 <futhin> @ on that address
11:39:28 <futhin> returns another
11:39:32 <futhin> keep doing @ 
11:39:37 <futhin> until it reaches 0
11:40:05 <futhin> until it returns 0
11:40:16 <onetom> aha, so the dereferencing w the @ does the stepping forward..
11:42:16 <onetom> : x context @ wordlist-id begin @ dup while dup name>string type repeat ;
11:42:19 <onetom> works 4 me
11:42:38 <onetom> now , let me expand it w counting
11:42:40 <futhin> that doesn't count
11:42:44 <futhin> yeah
11:43:32 <davidw> yeah, do the counting:-)
11:43:55 <onetom> : x 0 context @ wordlist-id begin @ dup while swap 1+ swap repeat drop ;
11:44:00 <onetom> x . 1421  ok
11:44:04 <futhin> hm
11:44:09 <futhin> dammit
11:44:12 <futhin> i had same
11:44:27 <onetom> except the ending
11:44:36 <futhin> : x 0 context @ wordlist-id begin @ dup while swap 1+ swap repeat . . ;
11:44:39 <onetom> u should swap . & drop
11:45:02 <onetom> : x 0 context @ wordlist-id begin @ dup while swap 1+ swap repeat . . ;  redefined x   ok
11:45:02 <onetom> x 0 1422  ok
11:45:41 <futhin> lol
11:45:46 <futhin> this is funny
11:45:50 <futhin> that i dropped the number
11:45:51 <futhin> bah
11:46:00 <futhin> i had a previous word
11:46:03 <futhin> that just had two  . . 
11:46:17 <futhin> but i was just getting back 10111
11:46:19 <onetom> yeah, i also saw that
11:46:41 <onetom> & what was wrong w that?
11:46:55 <futhin> 1422 != 10111 :P
11:47:27 <onetom> 10111 was in an other number system
11:47:30 <davidw> x 0 1401  ok
11:47:31 <onetom> like binary :)
11:49:28 <davidw> no, it couldn't be binary
11:49:31 <davidw> it can't be anything
11:49:39 <davidw> 4 ^ 5 == 1024
11:50:06 <davidw> 5 ^ 5 == way too much
11:55:44 <futhin> yeah
11:55:52 <futhin> it was an address number or something
11:56:03 <futhin> it was useless to me :P
11:56:31 <futhin> but now we all know how context @ wordlist-id works :D
11:59:40 <futhin> some kind of leet linked list
12:10:28 <futhin> mess with the leet linked list, die like the rest, whahaha
12:17:20 --- join: futhin_ (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
12:32:21 <onetom> im about 2 finish kernel.awk ;)
12:33:40 <davidw> ?
12:36:05 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
12:37:23 <onetom> davidw: a "4th kernel" in awk
12:37:38 <onetom> its a simple example of threaded code execution
12:38:16 <davidw> ewwwwwww
12:38:29 <onetom> i made a kernel.fs 2 help a discussion
12:38:39 <onetom> about a multitasking issue
12:39:04 <onetom> namely: does preemtive multi tasking require kernel level support, or not?
12:39:15 <onetom> and its a rewrite of it
12:39:38 <onetom> a python version of it is also on the way 2
12:40:19 <onetom> and some problems around the pascal version r also have been discussed
12:42:40 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust235.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
12:42:46 <I440r> hi ppl
12:44:34 <onetom> hi, man
12:44:35 <rob_ert> Hi .)
12:45:12 <onetom> heh, rob_ert, u naughty, young man!
12:45:20 <rob_ert> Huh?
12:45:28 <onetom> u r here all the time not saying a word
12:45:39 <rob_ert> Yeah... don't have much to speak about :P
12:45:44 <I440r> heh
12:45:48 <rob_ert> Doing some non-forth things atm
12:45:50 <onetom> but all the time some1 enters u welcome him/her! :)
12:45:55 <rob_ert> *cough*
12:46:01 <rob_ert> Of course!
12:46:06 <rob_ert> I'm polite, you know :)
12:46:08 <rob_ert> ;)
12:46:14 <onetom> ;)
12:46:19 <I440r> and im important!!!!!!!!!!!
12:46:20 <I440r> hehe
12:46:24 <onetom> lol
12:46:42 * onetom hails 2 I440r :)
12:46:49 <I440r> :)
12:47:36 <onetom> nu, wassup w isforth?
12:47:47 <onetom> how about terminfo support?
12:48:12 <I440r> im sorta taking a breakk from intense forth kernel coding - im coding a small benchmark proggie :)
12:48:15 <onetom> the need 4 some terminal handling grows day by day
12:48:25 <I440r> thats actually becoming quite complex
12:48:47 <I440r> i might have to parse in the different sequences and interpret each one when the user tries to use one
12:49:04 <onetom> ???
12:49:10 <futhin_> argh, i want a program for windows that limits my upload speed
12:49:13 <I440r> because sequences that accomplish the same opperation in different terminals are of different lengths
12:49:14 <futhin_> can't find anything
12:49:54 <I440r> so if i create a word to "position cursor" in one terminal - the same sequences might be longer on a different terminak
12:49:56 <I440r> terminal
12:50:28 <I440r> i might have to interpret the esc [ %i%p1;%p2 strings at USE time
12:50:45 <I440r> that makes things complecated
12:51:08 <onetom> still cant understand
12:51:28 <onetom> eg, what do u mean by "interpret"?
12:51:46 <onetom> id like 2 see some term support like:
12:51:52 <onetom> 12 5 position-cursor
12:52:08 <onetom> (what is called usually at-xy, anyway)
12:52:19 <I440r> ok lets take an example
12:52:25 <I440r> im just making these sequences up
12:52:31 <I440r> lets say we have a FOO sequence
12:52:37 <I440r> in eterm its encoded as
12:52:56 <I440r> esc [ %1;%p1;%p3;%p3
12:53:00 <I440r> but in xterm its
12:53:04 <I440r> esc [ %1;%p1;%p2
12:53:12 <I440r> with the third parameter being implied
12:53:14 <I440r> or something
12:53:22 <I440r> different lengths
12:53:38 <I440r> maybe aterm has 4 or 5 sub functions to the foo function
12:53:42 <I440r> etc etc etc
12:54:25 <I440r> there are not many sequences i need. just cursor position setting, colour changing, cursor position remember and reset
12:54:30 <I440r> basically thats it
12:55:00 <I440r> but the sequences to do these operations are not of a uniform length
12:55:12 <I440r> what do i do. allocate 32 bytes each for any sequence used ?
12:55:17 <I440r> i dont think so :P
12:55:28 --- quit: futhin_ ("bbl")
12:55:53 <onetom> 1, what is the 3rd param for cursor positioning?
12:56:05 <onetom> 2, is "esc [ %1;%p1;%p3;%p3" a 4th src code?
12:56:17 <onetom> so [ parses, or what?
12:56:47 <I440r> there isnt a third parameter heh
12:56:53 <onetom> [09:53] <I440r> with the third parameter being implied 
12:57:05 <I440r> thats for then made up FOO sequence heh
12:57:22 <I440r> which they forgot to add :P~
12:57:30 <I440r> ok
12:57:34 <I440r> hers a REAL example
12:57:36 <onetom> Q: do u use the terminfo db finally?
12:57:48 <I440r> in eterm and in linux console  you can set the palette as follows
12:58:51 <I440r> escape ] PP%p1%p2%p3%p4
12:58:56 <I440r> where p1 is a single character
12:59:02 <I440r> anbd p2 p3 and p4 can be 2 each
12:59:16 <I440r> p1 is the colour 0 to 15 that you want to change
12:59:22 <I440r> and p2 p3 and p4 are the RGB 
12:59:36 <I440r> in xterm you cant set the RGB
12:59:42 <I440r> you can only use color names
12:59:44 <I440r> like magenta
12:59:47 <I440r> or magenta4 etc
13:00:00 <I440r> escape [ 4;N;colorname
13:00:09 <I440r> where n is the colour 0 thru 15
13:00:13 <I440r> and colorname can be 
13:00:14 <I440r> black
13:00:17 <I440r> white
13:00:17 <I440r> red
13:00:19 <I440r> magenta
13:00:21 <I440r> magenta4
13:00:23 <I440r> red3
13:00:24 <I440r> etc
13:00:28 <I440r> totally fucking different
13:01:09 <onetom> sure, but there r a lot of
13:01:19 <onetom> common functions
13:01:31 <I440r> but there are many uncommon ones
13:01:36 <onetom> u should code those 1st
13:01:38 <I440r> also
13:01:41 <I440r> xterm is being a bitch
13:01:48 <onetom> and forget the rest 4 a while
13:01:54 <I440r> i set the colour palette and it doesnt take till its set again later
13:02:26 <onetom> palette chging is quite an uncommon terminal programming need...
13:02:45 <I440r> its designing a universal mechanism that will allow common METHODS for all the un-alike sequences thats difficult
13:03:05 <I440r> aterm doesnt let you
13:03:13 <I440r> none of the rxvt derivatives do
13:03:16 <onetom> slang -what is used by mc & similar consol prgs- is implemented in some kind of 4th
13:03:56 <onetom> but now, plz ask the Q:
13:03:58 <onetom> do u use the terminfo db finally? 
13:04:11 <I440r> not yet :(
13:04:22 <onetom> so, where do u gain those esc seq. specifications?
13:04:24 <I440r> but my code works in eterm, console, xterm and aterm
13:04:26 <onetom> from?
13:04:43 <I440r> by rtfming the different terminals and by installing them and experimenting
13:04:54 <I440r> i have atern,. eterm, xterm, rxvt installed here
13:04:55 <onetom> in which file can i find the realted stufF?
13:04:58 <I440r> and wterm too
13:05:08 <I440r> each terminal has its own dox
13:05:42 <onetom> they r a bit fuckup in the head...
13:06:06 <I440r> yes
13:06:22 <I440r> i almost understand the docs heh
13:06:25 <I440r> man terminfo
13:06:26 <I440r> man term
13:06:30 <I440r> man termcap
13:06:34 <I440r> those helped a LITTLE
13:07:26 <I440r> ill get this solved eventually
13:07:33 <I440r> it was always one of my goals
13:07:42 <onetom> just like mine :)))
13:08:06 <onetom> im very curious about, why cant b this solved in a less unsane manner :)
13:08:23 <onetom> btw, where could u managed 2 find term dox?
13:08:59 <I440r> apt-get source libncurses5
13:09:05 <I440r> helped a little
13:09:13 <I440r> the info is scattered all over the place
13:09:18 <I440r> you just have to gather it in
13:09:27 <onetom> great >(
13:10:04 <onetom> it will b different in 4os, iguess :PPPP
13:10:28 <onetom> but it still needs such a legacy support
13:10:28 <I440r> :)
13:21:50 --- join: Fare (fare@bespin.org) joined #forth
13:22:46 <rob_ert> Hello .)
13:23:44 --- quit: davidw (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
13:31:45 <I440r> fare!!!
13:31:49 <I440r> hi dood :)
13:32:03 <I440r> i just applied for a forth job:)
13:32:03 <I440r> heh
13:32:07 <I440r> fingers crossed
13:44:36 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear")
13:45:02 <onetom> I440r: wow. what kind of 4th job?
13:46:35 <I440r> dunno :P
13:46:43 <I440r> in texas - thats all i know heh
13:46:44 <I440r> who cares
13:46:51 <I440r> its forth
13:47:24 --- join: St3pan (~stepan@p508476B5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
13:47:28 <rob_ert> Hey
13:48:09 --- quit: Stepan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:48:20 --- nick: St3pan -> Stepan
13:48:39 <onetom> I440r: inform us about any advancements! :)
13:48:46 <onetom> Stepan: hi
13:49:15 <I440r> will do :)
13:51:41 <Stepan> hi onetom :)
13:53:49 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-14.sat.net) joined #forth
14:03:10 <onetom> hi Etaoin 
14:03:12 <I440r> hi
14:03:19 <I440r> stepan hi :)
14:03:47 <Stepan> Hey I440r.. how's life?
14:03:57 <I440r> not too bad :)
14:05:05 <I440r> and you ?
14:07:09 <Etaoin> hi
14:08:12 <I440r> ok ennuff of the waltons stuff here :P
14:08:15 <I440r> nite grandma
14:08:19 <I440r> nite jimbob
14:08:20 <I440r> heh
14:31:37 <onetom> kernel.awk is almost ready
14:31:57 <onetom> but theres a bug hanging around somewhere in to :-/
14:32:15 <onetom> im just about 2 slay it
14:33:33 <onetom> s/to/it/
14:35:32 <I440r> i slayed a bug or 2 last nite in my n2-1 puzzle solver :)
14:35:53 <I440r> i wrote it all yesterday - everythings is there except the brains which im about to do
14:36:00 <I440r> :)
14:36:19 <I440r> it will solve 3x3 4x4 5x5 and 6x6 boards :)
14:36:23 <I440r> soon :P
14:39:53 <onetom> ?
14:39:58 <onetom> what puzzle?
14:40:18 <onetom> ah, n^2-1
14:40:38 <onetom> and what kind of brain do u plan 4 it?
14:41:19 <onetom> what ideas is it gonna follow?
14:48:18 <I440r> well i have already worked on one of these about 10 years ago. there are a couple of very interesting huristics i came up with back there
14:48:50 <I440r> like - once a piece is in its correct position it can be added to an "illegal moves" list - unless not being able to move that piece would prevent solution
14:49:10 <I440r> the TRICK is in recognizing when you are able to BLOCK a piece
14:49:19 <I440r> for instance on the 6 by 6 
14:49:34 <I440r> ABCDEX   <-- if you cant move e then you cant get F in place
14:49:51 <I440r> but abc and d can all be locked in place
14:52:35 <I440r> im doing it as a benchmark too
14:52:54 <onetom> aha
14:53:30 <I440r> this is more like a reall world situation 
14:53:34 <onetom> but cant really imagine the algorithm itself
14:53:52 <I440r> its a clever huristic
14:53:58 <I440r> called manhattan distance
14:54:10 <onetom> eg, how do u use that blockin list
14:54:19 <I440r> add up the distance each piece is from its solved position
14:54:25 <onetom> ah, manhattan distance!
14:54:37 <onetom> i dont know what it is, but still helped a bit
14:54:38 <I440r> and find the sequence of moves that gives the lowest manhattan distance
14:54:47 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
14:55:38 <futhin> heuristics damnit! :P
14:55:48 <I440r> huristics are cool
14:56:00 <I440r> algorithms are guaranteed to find the solution
14:56:03 <I440r> huristics arent
14:56:22 <I440r> but will get you closer and closer to solved
14:56:24 <onetom> funny area, thats sure :)
14:56:25 <futhin> its spelled 'heuristics' :P
14:56:28 <I440r> and you usualy solve faster
14:56:37 <I440r> inknow isnt that what i typed ?
14:56:38 <I440r> er
14:56:58 <futhin> yeah, there's an e in there
14:57:18 <onetom> dont u use genetic algo, by chance?
14:57:42 <onetom> (or its also called evolutionary alogrithm, or what)
14:57:43 * futhin is ace spelling bee :P
14:58:09 <I440r> no
14:58:14 <I440r> why bother :P
14:58:35 <I440r> sounds like a whole pile of obfuscation and over complecation of a realy simple problem to solve :P
14:58:57 <onetom> just this heuristics thing reminds me a bit 2 genetic alg
14:59:10 <onetom> he?
14:59:25 <I440r> genetic algorithms are generally tied to statistics i believe
14:59:31 <I440r> statistical analysys
14:59:33 <onetom> the genetic alg is the most cleanest algs all around the world! :)
14:59:44 <onetom> eh, shit!
15:00:10 <Etaoin> well it's better than purely random
15:00:19 <onetom> but go on, tell me whats wrong w stats?
15:00:58 <I440r> nothing
15:01:07 <I440r> but its overkill for n2-1 :P
15:01:07 <I440r> heh
15:01:13 <onetom> Etaoin: iguess, his is using genetic alg, just he dont know its name ;)
15:01:36 <onetom> I440r: i doubt it... a lot
15:01:48 <futhin> hm
15:02:10 <futhin> genetic algo involves generating all these possibilities and seeing which one survives
15:02:10 <onetom> this though-chain was just like:
15:02:13 <futhin> isn't it?
15:02:30 <onetom> u have to do integration 2 solve that problem
15:02:43 <Etaoin> futhin: yes, that's what I'm thinking of
15:02:58 <futhin> yes
15:03:00 <futhin> in my mind
15:03:07 <futhin> it seems like a big alog
15:03:09 <futhin> algo
15:03:11 <onetom> and u frighten away, coz it math analizes
15:03:29 <onetom> but in fact, it could b coded as mere additions
15:25:38 --- quit: rob_ert ("Bye.")
15:46:53 --- quit: Stepan ("Client Exiting")
15:50:05 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-107-19.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
15:51:27 <I440r> soap!
15:53:23 <Soap`> Morning
15:54:13 <I440r> :)
15:57:31 <onetom> dont u know where can i find dos/win9x precompiled bootfloppy images?
15:57:56 <I440r> nope
16:00:24 <Soap`> http://www.putergeek.com/downloads/
16:00:30 <Soap`> *cough*two seconds on google*cough*
16:00:32 <onetom> ah, thats it
16:00:37 <onetom> thx
16:00:53 <onetom> ive also tried google
16:01:00 <onetom> but im failed :)
16:01:32 <onetom> i asked: dos win95 win98 disk image rawrite
16:02:14 * Soap` typed "dos boot image"
16:02:53 <onetom> Soap`: thx
16:05:19 <I440r> oooohhh i found a job posting for micro$oft :)
16:05:20 <I440r> heh
16:05:38 <futhin> ooh
16:05:41 <futhin> forth coding? :P
16:06:04 <futhin> what kind of programming was the micro$oft job?
16:06:10 <I440r> java :P
16:07:14 <futhin> ewww
16:07:47 <I440r> hehe
16:10:37 <futhin> some people think java is a popular programming language
16:10:51 <I440r> some people are stupid
16:11:01 <I440r> its not a popular PROGRAMMING language at all
16:11:04 <I440r> it doesnt count
16:11:28 <futhin> heh
16:11:40 <futhin> why doesn't it count? :P
16:12:42 <I440r> its not programming
16:12:45 <I440r> its scripting
16:12:54 <I440r> even if its compiled its still scripting
16:13:00 <I440r> there are even bash compilers out there
16:13:09 <I440r> that doesnt make bash a programming language
16:13:11 <onetom> gosh, colorforth hangs vmware under any circumstances :)
16:13:35 <futhin> you put colorforth into 'sector 0' ?
16:13:49 <onetom> futhin: ah, good idea getting a 386!
16:13:49 <futhin> why don't you try loveall's colorforth
16:13:53 <futhin> or enth's colorforth
16:14:05 <futhin> enth / flux colorforth
16:14:05 <onetom> futhin: there must b some on the self
16:14:33 <onetom> futhin: but hey! colorforth reqs 1024x768!!! shit.
16:14:48 <futhin> it does?
16:14:49 <futhin> hm
16:15:06 <onetom> futhin: good question...
16:15:15 <onetom> probably coz im a bit lamer :)
16:15:34 <futhin> just get a 386, a regular video card, a monitor..
16:15:43 <futhin> 1024x768 isn't a big deal
16:16:05 <futhin> all video cards made around the time 386 support it :P
16:16:11 <futhin> er
16:16:29 <futhin> all video cards made around the time 386's were being made, support that resolution
16:16:32 <futhin> it's not a big deal :P
16:16:39 <futhin> just get some crappy ati card if you have to
16:17:07 <onetom> im afraid i can only dig out some
16:17:28 <onetom> trident 9000i w 256K/512K vidmem
16:17:34 <futhin> lol
16:17:49 <futhin> eh
16:17:50 <onetom> they support only interlaced 1024
16:18:02 <futhin> so?
16:18:03 <futhin> try it :P
16:18:18 <onetom> eh, i think i wont
16:19:02 <onetom> shall u give me urls 2 enth/flux color4th?
16:19:42 <futhin> um..
16:19:51 <futhin> are you sure interlaced 1024 won't work ??
16:20:10 <futhin> does it support XGA ? SXGA?
16:23:00 <futhin> trident will probably work
16:23:11 <futhin> it calls bios to set the mode..
16:23:28 <futhin> it probably won't care if it's interlaced or not..  the video card will handle it..
16:23:40 --- quit: futhin ()
16:36:31 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
16:40:31 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth
16:44:07 <I440r> im gona go code
16:44:10 <I440r> l8er guyz
16:44:53 --- quit: I440r ("abort" not enough code written"")
17:20:09 <onetom> gee, Enth runs inside vm!
17:20:21 * onetom kisses futhin on forehead
17:31:47 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
17:31:58 <qless> howdy folks
17:33:05 <qless> hmmm
17:37:16 * onetom tries enth/flux derivative of colorforth
17:37:38 <onetom> and he thinks its good
17:37:43 <qless> cool
17:37:58 <onetom> tho its a bloatware related 2 colorforth loll
17:38:13 <onetom> chuck would say @ least
17:38:24 <qless> chuck da man
17:38:36 <onetom> anyway, im running it from inside vmware!
17:38:42 <qless> impressive
17:38:42 <onetom> chuck da moore :)
17:38:50 <qless> :)
17:39:01 <onetom> tho, its latest version hangs vm
17:39:11 <onetom> just like chucks colorforth :PP
17:39:24 <qless> hmm
17:39:45 <onetom> anyway, ive almost implemented kernel.awk
17:40:00 <qless> you're writing a kernel in awk?
17:40:07 <onetom> its the awk counterpart of my kernel.fs
17:40:15 <onetom> yes
17:40:19 <qless> hilarious :)
17:40:30 <onetom> u know kernel.fs, dont u!?
17:40:44 <qless> from gforth?
17:40:53 <onetom> u also were here when ive created it, didu?
17:41:05 <onetom> no, form scratch lol
17:41:11 <qless> oh right.  i remember now.  i wasn't here but i heard about it
17:41:22 <onetom> scratch is a VEERY cute software ;)
17:41:31 <qless> hehe
17:42:07 <onetom> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/kernel.fs
17:42:07 <onetom> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/kernel.awk
17:43:12 <onetom> these lil prgs r nothing else just mere threaded code exectution examples
17:43:22 <qless> uhuh
17:43:26 <onetom> simple prototypes
17:43:33 <qless> funny
17:44:40 <onetom> they r intended 2 help understanding the basics of the 4th inner-interpreter by non-4th minded ppl
17:44:53 <onetom> funny, but the awk is buggy
17:45:04 <qless> i just showed it to a friend, and she said, "where are the ne2000 drivers"
17:45:06 <qless> :-)
17:45:09 <onetom> and the orig .fs is also a bit misdesigned
17:45:15 <onetom> lolll
17:45:34 <onetom> ne2k will b the next step probably ;)
17:45:40 <qless> uhuh :)
17:46:01 <onetom> but u should show him some ide driver from
17:46:12 <onetom> forthos.org
17:46:14 <qless> chuck's ide driver?
17:46:36 <onetom> thats about half a screen
17:46:57 <onetom> do u know some ide drv from chuck?
17:47:17 <qless> yes i saw it somewhere, can't remember where... :(
17:47:35 * qless wrote a floppy driver in forth.... not particularly fun
17:48:05 <onetom> probably chucks colorforth also has some ide drv
17:48:12 <qless> probly
17:49:21 <onetom> http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
18:01:29 <onetom> how could VMS b that fun?
18:01:51 <onetom> isnt is just obscured?
18:01:52 <qless> because any idea you've ever had about what should be in an OS is inside VMS
18:02:26 <qless> 4 priviledge levels, internal records management, totally integrated
18:02:27 <onetom> bwahaha - as futhin would say :)
18:02:49 <qless> slower than fuck, and bloated as hell, but its still lots of fun
18:03:20 <onetom> he? u fuck that slow??!?! :))
18:03:37 <qless> only when she's asleep
18:03:38 <qless> :)
18:03:41 <onetom> well, probably thats what i need :)
18:03:45 <onetom> loll
18:04:03 <onetom> j u s t    l i k e    m e  ;)
18:04:10 <qless> hilarious
18:11:14 <onetom> is openvms opensrc?
18:11:38 <qless> hell no.  it was designed to run on DEC minicomputers and supermini's
18:11:52 <onetom> sad :)
18:12:02 <qless> lots of people still use it, but i don't think its being sold anymore
18:12:09 <onetom> then why is it named open? :)))
18:12:31 <onetom> what is the most authentic src for it?
18:12:38 <qless> oh because in the old days, it was very closed and only ran on VAXen.  then they opened up parts of it
18:13:22 <qless> here's a fun thing you can do in openvms:  you can make it so ALL the commands you run don't return any messages.  no errors, no status, nothing.  so its impossible or very hard to hack
18:13:38 <qless> its a shell parameter
18:14:41 <qless> if you want to set it up so it swaps to 9 track tape, that's ok too :-)  its very flexible
18:16:04 <onetom> thats an immensely useful feature :)))
18:17:11 <qless> the file system is pretty cool too.  when you create a file like 'foo.c' it is actually called 'foo.c;1' then when you edit and save 'foo.c' it is saved as 'foo.c;2' etc.  so you can always go back, but the open() will return the latest version
18:17:34 <qless> you can set it to keep the last 3 versions, or the last 50, whatever
18:19:20 <onetom> aha
18:20:10 <onetom> ive already heard of such things, but didnt know anything about their roots
18:20:22 <qless> also, you can temporarily remove or add priviledges to any running or about to run program, so you can say:  'my web browser should be able to make outgoing connections' but 'my game can't' (stop's spyware)
18:20:54 <onetom> the iso9660 cdformat also aplies this filename;num notation
18:21:04 <qless> oh cool
18:21:35 <onetom> yumm, that really great
18:21:51 <onetom> i was always wondering about such an os
18:22:12 <qless> if you want to play with vms, apply for a free account on www.hobbesthevax.com
18:22:25 <onetom> do u think its impossible 2 make such a system
18:22:25 <qless> say you are an os designer or something
18:22:36 <qless> no i think its very possible
18:22:41 <onetom> but written in forth
18:22:46 <qless> yes, written in forth
18:23:02 <onetom> and accordingly reengineered and adapted a bit
18:23:09 <onetom> within 3-4yrs?
18:23:20 <qless> within 6 months if you can work full time
18:24:17 <onetom> i though 3-4yrs could b enough 4 a linux grade implementation
18:24:28 <qless> linus only took 1 year to get something working
18:26:17 <onetom> probably its time 4 some of us 2 start planning/writing a newer generation os
18:27:11 <qless> i like the idea of giving all the privileges /by process/ instead of /by user/ like unix.  boxen are fast enough for fine-grained resource allocation
18:27:54 <onetom> haha, r u german?
18:28:07 <qless> hehe.  no.  do i sound german?
18:28:30 <onetom> that boxen stuff is germanism, ithink
18:28:36 <qless> oh ok
18:28:44 <onetom> but probably im wrong
18:29:14 <qless> i thought you were commenting on my strict ideas regarding privileges :-)
18:29:16 <onetom> who do u like my awk-4th, anyway?
18:29:29 <onetom> :))))
18:29:40 <qless> i don't read awk actually, but it looks like fun
18:29:42 <onetom> no, not the privileges
18:30:01 <onetom> awk is just a simplified C
18:30:07 <qless> oh ok
18:30:25 <onetom> w many automation that helps text processing
18:30:36 <qless> cool.  that's what i figured
18:30:39 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
18:30:48 <qless> heya futhin
18:30:52 <futhin> howdy
18:31:07 <onetom> it automatically breaks up the input stream to records and fields
18:31:17 <qless> handy
18:31:20 <futhin> boxen is just slang btw
18:31:22 <futhin> afaik
18:31:43 <onetom> by the given record&field spearators what both could b regexps
18:32:32 <onetom> then u can refer to the whole record as $0 and refer to the fields as $1 $2 ... $NF (Number of Fields)
18:33:00 <onetom> helo, futhin (also detected the kiss 4 u?)
18:33:53 <onetom> awk also has some simplification on syntax
18:34:31 <onetom> so the regular stream processing algos shouldnt contain the same code regulary
18:34:54 <onetom> u only have to write
18:35:17 <onetom> so called /pattern/ {action} pairs
18:35:30 <qless> aha
18:36:11 <onetom> what is: if (match($0,"pattern") { action; }
18:36:15 <onetom> written in C
18:36:49 <onetom> but u can give any logical expression 
18:36:58 <onetom> instead of /pattern/
18:37:14 <qless> nifty.  so if its found, it creates a set?
18:37:18 <onetom> like: $2 > 12 {print $3}
18:38:00 <onetom> no, it doesnt creates anything but executes the code block
18:38:09 <qless> oh ok
18:38:42 <onetom> and these blocks r implicitly looped by awk
18:39:27 <onetom> and in every iteration, it does the input reading-and-breaking-up-by-regexp-separators
18:39:35 <onetom> automatically
18:39:40 <qless> coool
18:39:49 <onetom> and thats all
18:40:27 <onetom> tho, it has 2 special "patterns", the BEGIN and the END
18:40:51 <onetom> they hold the code 2 b executed outside that implicit loop
18:41:00 <futhin> onetom: yes i detected the kiss :P
18:41:22 <qless> (kiss?)
18:41:35 <futhin> Keep It Simple, Sexy
18:41:38 <qless> keep it simple silly?
18:41:42 <qless> oh ok
18:41:45 <futhin> or Stupid
18:41:49 <onetom> (ive just thanked futhin some help)
18:42:11 <onetom> (and gave him a virtual kiss on his forehead)
18:42:31 <onetom> [02:20] <onetom> gee, Enth runs inside vm! 
18:42:31 <onetom> [02:20] * onetom kisses futhin on forehead 
18:42:31 <onetom> [02:32] *** Joins: qless [~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net] has joined #forth 
18:43:48 <onetom> Karel's Interactive Simple Shell
18:44:47 <qless> korn is (a) silly shell
18:45:05 <onetom> futhin: havein this simple kernel.* stuff
18:45:31 <onetom> we can also u it experimenting w version control
18:45:43 <futhin> what catches my attention in the log is the discussion about oses
18:46:00 <onetom> thought so ;)
18:46:06 <futhin> especially coding for 6 months full-time :)
18:46:12 <onetom> lol
18:46:25 <qless> hehe
18:46:44 <onetom> u starve 4 such a job, dont u? :)
18:47:11 <futhin> heh
18:47:20 <qless> u might starve, but if you did some begging on the street, you'd probly make it
18:47:34 <futhin> no time for begging in full-time coding :P
18:47:52 <onetom> lol
18:48:03 <qless> code on a laptop while sitting on the sidewalk with a sign that says "Will work for forth os"
18:48:09 <onetom> lollllll
18:48:10 <futhin> oooooh
18:48:30 <futhin> it _could_ work :)
18:48:52 <futhin> or!!!
18:48:55 <onetom> will code 4th os 4 food
18:49:03 <futhin> i could get a membership at some "All you can eat" buffet!
18:49:11 <qless> bingo
18:49:33 <futhin> and clean myself with moist towelettes
18:49:47 <qless> indeed
18:50:13 <qless> and the spare change you bring in can pay for a globalstar satellite phone
18:50:20 <futhin> lol
18:50:31 <onetom> :)))
18:51:08 <onetom> the begger of future will just look like that
18:51:28 <onetom> beggars
18:51:44 <futhin> they'll be more sophisticated
18:51:50 <futhin> they'll beg on OPN ;)
18:52:04 <futhin> on #lisp
18:52:08 <qless> or you could get a job cleaning offices, and plug into their oc3's at night to upload stuff
18:52:13 <onetom> rotfl
18:52:43 <futhin> hm
18:53:46 <futhin> hm, i need to get back to coding
18:53:53 <futhin> been procrastinating all day
18:54:04 <futhin> on the postscript project
18:54:14 <futhin> qless: do you do your job from home?
18:54:23 <futhin> how do you keep yourself focused on the task..
18:54:31 <qless> futhin, most of the time, yes
18:55:44 <qless> i turn on the tv, the radio, some mp3s, grow 4 extra arms, and sit down at 3 keyboards, wear dark sunglasses, and drive the mouse with my right foot.  hard to get distracted that way
18:59:12 <onetom> :)
18:59:35 <qless> but seriously, it helps to imagine yourself wearing those blinders that horses in the city do
19:00:25 <onetom> futhin: ive already advice my helping hand
19:00:58 <onetom> probably its the most effective way of development if 1 is working
19:01:17 <onetom> simulteniously w some1 else in the very same time
19:01:27 <futhin> qless: heh, blinders rule
19:01:37 <onetom> in such a situation none of them dares 2 do sg else, cot
19:01:49 <onetom> coz he knows the other
19:02:09 <onetom> individual is waiting for him
19:02:14 <futhin> onetom: i don't have a system right now
19:02:32 <onetom> system?
19:02:52 <futhin> a system for doing things..  a routine..  
19:03:03 <onetom> its a proven method, ive just tried it out roughly a month b4
19:03:20 <futhin> onetom: if you don't mind
19:03:31 <onetom> it made meself operate 1.5x as fast as usually, alone
19:03:31 <futhin> we could discuss forthos singlemindedly
19:03:45 <futhin> most of the time when i see you
19:03:50 <futhin> i think "forthos dammit!"
19:04:02 <futhin> so if we bug each other
19:04:04 <onetom> :)
19:04:06 <futhin> everytime we're on
19:04:45 <futhin> qless: i'm probably looking for coding jobs/contracting jobs..  just so you know
19:04:46 <onetom> i also dont have a routine anyway
19:04:56 <futhin> qless: er. contract coding jobs
19:05:09 <futhin> onetom: right now i'm concerned about money & work
19:05:17 <futhin> if i had something setup
19:05:28 <futhin> then it'd be easier for me to focus on forth os
19:05:31 <futhin> when i'm not busy
19:05:54 <onetom> thats why i dare 2 give u a hand on yr main prj
19:06:03 <futhin> onetom: maybe i should dedicate something like 2 hours to the forth os everyday
19:06:14 <futhin> and ignore the #forth channel for the rest of the time ..
19:06:32 * qless is going into 'Enterprise' land for the next hour.  pmsg for attention
19:06:39 <onetom> probably i also should do the same way :)
19:12:43 <onetom> thats pretty sad
19:13:11 <futhin> bbiab
19:17:06 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise MemoryError, "oops, someone took the last jar of internet"")
19:39:11 --- quit: futhin ("brb")
20:18:48 <qless> futhin
20:23:47 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
20:25:10 <futhin> yeah?
20:25:26 * futhin checked the log
20:25:36 <qless> oh just wondering if u were still here
20:27:45 <futhin> hm
20:27:49 <futhin> i'm checking monster.ca
20:27:54 <futhin> don't see any forth jobs :P
20:28:01 <qless> right on cool.  no you probly won't.  brb
20:28:58 <futhin> ugh, all the jobs are for managers
20:29:10 <futhin> i'm searching the "computers, software" section..
20:29:37 <qless> look everywhere, cause maybe there's jobs via internet in ontario or mars or something
20:31:13 <futhin> jobs that i do from home?
20:31:40 * futhin did google search "forth coding jobs from mars" with no luck
20:31:57 <qless> well at least you can say you tried
20:33:22 <futhin> technopoint seem to be some forth company
20:33:31 <futhin> http://www.technopoint.net/tpforth/eng/index.html
20:33:33 <futhin> with jobs avail
20:34:28 <futhin> or maybe not :)
20:34:31 <futhin> i'm confused heh
20:34:43 --- nick: qless -> confusedthin
20:34:46 <futhin> it says "The TpForth project is an Open Source effort"
20:34:52 --- nick: confusedthin -> qless
20:34:58 <futhin> but it seems to be a company or something ..
20:35:26 <futhin> naw
20:36:20 <qless> write an i'm-looking-for-a-job letter to elizabeth rather @forth.com and see what she says
20:38:48 <qless> you can get her email addy from comp.os.forth
20:39:24 <futhin> grrr..  google needs to recognize wether "forth" is a noun or something else from the context of the sentences..  that way we'll get more Forth links and less "go forth boldly"
20:50:32 <futhin> comp.os.forth?  or comp.lang.forth?
20:50:54 <qless> whups.  sorry, was in the future there.  comp.lang
20:50:59 <futhin> heh :)
20:51:38 <Soap`> Futhin, you should get a job with google :P
20:52:10 <qless> hehe, soup
20:53:27 <futhin> naw, they only hire PhDs last i looked
20:53:35 <futhin> i looked at the hiring page like 2 years ago :P
20:59:39 <Soap`> :/
21:01:19 <Soap`> Damn. http://www.google.com/jobs/food.html
21:07:48 <futhin> http://www.google.ca/programming-contest/
21:08:06 <futhin> entries due april 30 :(
21:08:20 <futhin> not sure when they made the contest known ?
21:27:10 <Soap`> A good while back... I remember seeing a link to it on the main google page :/
21:27:28 <qless> its been in the works for a long time
21:47:48 <futhin> the page & the readme doesn't say anything about which lang it can be coded in..
21:48:01 <qless> i think its up to you
21:48:07 <futhin> you are allowed 3 ppl
21:48:15 <futhin> to do it as a group
21:48:27 <qless> yeeha.  i for one, will not be entering
21:48:36 <futhin> because you have a job?
21:49:03 <qless> no, because i hate losing, and somebody, somewhere, has a better idea of what to do with 8 TB of news articles
21:49:08 <qless> than me
21:50:52 <qless> the best /me has done is come in 11th in a POTM contest.  good enough
21:51:14 <futhin> well, there were quite a few different things that could've been done in that contest
21:51:23 <qless> yep
21:51:29 <futhin> POTM?
21:51:45 <qless> programmer of the month.  it doesn't exist anymore but it used to be run by at&t
21:51:51 <futhin> ah
21:52:12 <futhin> maybe we should host forth coding contests :)
21:52:39 <qless> and as a grand prize, we'll send them on an all expenses paid trip to grand prairie
21:53:17 <futhin> where chuck lives?
21:53:34 <qless> chuck lives in los angeles
21:53:37 <futhin> heh
21:55:27 <futhin> grand prairie is where?  b.c ?
21:55:29 <futhin> er
21:55:39 <futhin> alberta
21:55:43 <futhin> small town somehwere?
21:55:47 <qless> northern alberta.  or at least as northern as you want to be
21:56:47 <futhin> hm
21:56:50 <futhin> i'm starting to notice a trend
21:57:03 <qless> ?
21:57:06 <futhin> it's easiest for me to code at 10:30 pm to 2 am
21:57:24 <qless> yep.  once that bastard sun goes down, its clear sailing until dawn
21:57:30 <futhin> heh :)
21:57:48 <futhin> the funny thing is that i'm a "morning" person..
21:58:02 <futhin> in fact, not a month ago, i was going to bed at 8 pm and getting up at 6 am
21:58:39 <qless> there's still time to get sane
22:00:57 <qless> asleep at sundown.  work till dawn.  its easier now that its spring
22:01:06 <qless> sorry, awake at sundown
22:29:14 <futhin> yeah
22:29:17 <futhin> that wouldn't be bad
22:29:36 <qless> try it, you'll feel much better
22:29:54 <futhin> something like wake up at 2 am
22:29:58 <futhin> code till 10
22:30:01 <futhin> then do other stuff :P
22:30:29 <qless> waking up in the middle of the night is fine, but you've actually got to awaken.  lying with your face on the keyboard doesn't work
22:30:31 <futhin> then go to sleep at 4pm ..
22:30:42 <qless> wake up at dusk
22:30:50 <qless> its getting easier
22:30:55 <futhin> heh
22:30:57 <futhin> you do that? :)
22:31:10 <qless> not tonight, but recently sure
22:31:45 <futhin> i'm thinking that this would work:  go to sleep 5pm, get up at 2am (9 hours sleep)
22:32:12 <futhin> what time is dusk?
22:32:14 <futhin> 6 pm ?
22:32:38 <qless> between 6 and 7.  work till 6-7 am
22:32:55 <futhin> bed at 9 am get up at 6pm
22:33:16 <futhin> that would be too asynchronous with the real world.
22:33:42 <futhin> getting up at 2 am and going to bed at 5pm means that there's some chance to interact with the real world, do banking, etc
22:34:15 <qless> just think of it this way:  no matter what time you go to bed, 1/3 of the world is planning to do you in.  at least if you sleep during ab.ca's day, you'll know who it is who's out to get you
22:36:37 <futhin> lol
22:36:49 <futhin> what do you mean?
22:36:53 <futhin> you'll be asleep
22:36:59 <futhin> when they are doing you in :P
22:37:35 <qless> i'll be asleep, but i *know* who's got it in for me.  i'm not worried
22:38:16 <futhin> how are you going to know?
22:38:25 <qless> i've been awake enough nights to know who wants to do me in.  by now its just boring
22:39:08 <futhin> hm, nobody wants to do you in :P
22:39:34 <qless> everybody wants to do me in.  especially in china.  i am a threat to their perfect reality
22:39:52 <futhin> how so?
22:40:05 <qless> i don't play authority games.  enough said
22:40:14 <futhin> heheh :)
22:47:02 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
22:47:14 <qless> jesus rob_ert, you're early
22:47:58 <rob_ert> :)
22:48:00 <rob_ert> 07:45
22:48:02 <rob_ert> Not that early
22:48:22 <qless> how is the Day looking?  should i bother getting up tomorrow?
22:48:53 <rob_ert> Uhm
22:48:58 * rob_ert looks out.
22:49:06 <rob_ert> mmMmm..sunshine.
22:49:14 <qless> ok i can deal with that
22:49:15 * rob_ert looks in the other direction.
22:49:19 <rob_ert> mmMmmm...computers.
22:49:29 <qless> ok i can deal with that too
22:49:30 <rob_ert> Lots to live for today!
22:49:44 <qless> good, because somebody in another channel wants to kill me
22:49:59 <qless> and i'd hate to die before i get a chance to see tomorrow
22:50:33 <rob_ert> "Attack is the best defense". Go kill him :)
22:50:49 <futhin> but first, read Sun Tzu's 'Art of War'
22:51:07 <qless> thanks for the advice.  he's already dying.  i suppose i should administer the Coup de gras
22:51:18 <futhin> and learn Aikido!  Have you ever seen those guys who can fly?  That's cuz they know Aikido!
22:51:25 <futhin> Aikido = Art of movement
22:51:36 <futhin> it isn't actually a combat martial arts
22:51:44 <qless> qless = the art of conversational warfare
22:51:54 <futhin> it's on the next plane
22:52:06 <futhin> you master your chi, and can fly and other leet stuff
22:52:27 <qless> (leet?)  does that mean i get to write my T's as 7's?
22:52:35 <qless> hehe.  just joking
22:53:01 * rob_ert .oO(l33tscr1pt!$#!)
22:53:32 <qless> jeepers rob_ert, you must have worked on that one for a while, huh?
22:53:44 <rob_ert> Which one?
22:53:56 <qless> that bubble thing that just floated by my console
22:54:20 <rob_ert> Yeah, took me ~10s to make.
22:54:30 <rob_ert> A piece of art, I tell you!
22:54:36 <qless> indeed it is
22:56:48 <futhin> hmm
22:56:56 <futhin> i'm using notepad to code in
22:57:01 <futhin> maybe i should use something better :P
22:57:15 <rob_ert> Hehe
22:57:15 <futhin> this lousy editor doesn't even have Ctrl-S or anything like that 
22:57:33 <futhin> although i know that the XP notepad has Ctrl-X
22:57:33 <rob_ert> Alt - F - S :)
22:57:34 <futhin> er
22:57:35 <futhin> Ctrl-S
22:57:38 <qless> fdisk /dev/hda, d 1 w q
22:58:01 <futhin> bah to Alt-F-S, my left Alt key doesn't work anymore :(
22:58:33 <futhin> jeez, i don't understand why stores don't seem to sell keyboard covers?
22:58:38 <futhin> there seems to be a conspiracy
22:58:47 <futhin> keyboards last _forever_
22:58:54 <futhin> unless you spill enough stuff on it..
22:59:40 <futhin> or you hit it once too many times with your patented "ctrl-alt-del" face smash
23:00:02 * qless shakes his keyboard upside down and watches all the tobacco and shit fall out of it
23:00:08 <futhin> yeah
23:00:22 <futhin> food especially
23:00:26 <futhin> quite gross
23:00:27 <futhin> heh
23:01:31 <qless> no food here, except maybe for peanut skins
23:02:52 <rob_ert> School... Bye #forth :)
23:02:54 <futhin> time for me to try out e.exe
23:02:58 <futhin> rob_ert: noooo!!!
23:03:00 <futhin> don't go there!
23:03:02 <rob_ert> :P
23:03:04 <futhin> they'll suck your soul
23:03:09 <rob_ert> Nah
23:03:25 <futhin> yeah, they'll suck it out like you are some gui candy with gui stuff inside
23:03:45 <rob_ert> Then I send my holy gnu to them.
23:03:50 <rob_ert> Anyway, gotta go :)
23:03:57 <futhin> have fun
23:03:59 <futhin> learn something :P
23:04:21 <futhin> qless: use any particular editor on windows/dos ?
23:04:45 <qless> the only time i boot doze is to check to see if i have any exciting viruses waiting
23:04:53 <futhin> heh
23:05:03 <futhin> no such things as a virus
23:05:07 <futhin> they are myths
23:05:12 <futhin> :P
23:05:21 <futhin> no
23:05:23 <qless> worms, trojans, whatever
23:05:36 <futhin> don't send me a virus
23:05:56 <qless> i almost never send virui
23:06:20 <futhin> i've heard mention of linux virus
23:06:24 <futhin> but never read much about it
23:06:36 <futhin> most of them need root access prolly :P
23:06:44 <qless> if you're even a little careful, its impossible to get a unix virus
23:06:54 <qless> well, unlikely
23:07:54 <futhin> yes
23:08:00 <futhin> i'm careful on windows too
23:08:15 <futhin> i haven't gotten a virus since maybe 6 years ago?
23:09:03 <qless> you really have to be in a stupid person's address book for that to happen
23:10:10 <futhin> i use yahoo for my mail :P
23:10:22 <futhin> but yeah
23:10:33 <futhin> only like 2 stupid people email me :P
23:10:41 <futhin> once in a blue moon
23:10:43 <qless> wel lthere you go
23:10:49 <futhin> no executables tho
23:10:53 <futhin> just pictures :P
23:11:06 <futhin> hm
23:11:10 <futhin> i installed gvim
23:11:12 <futhin> yay
23:11:19 <futhin> time to become familiar with vim
23:11:29 <futhin> i know i inserts and q quits :P
23:11:43 <qless> dd deletes the line
23:11:46 <futhin> the next most important commands are: cut'n'paste! :D
23:12:11 <futhin> ugh
23:12:19 <futhin> it's a hassle to hit the esc key
23:12:39 <futhin> if i'm in insert mode, esc is the only way out ?
23:12:49 <qless> pretty much
23:13:15 <futhin> bah, i can deal with it
23:28:36 <futhin> better than reaching for the mouse :P
23:28:58 <qless> put a plastic scorpion on your mouse.  then you won't be tempted to use it
23:30:53 <futhin> good night
23:30:58 --- quit: futhin ("sleep")
23:31:05 --- part: qless left #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.03.26