00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.24
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02:49:19 <onetom> http://www.verde666.org/sed/sokoban/sokoban.sed
02:52:42 <rob_ert> Haha!
03:35:26 <onetom> :( colorForth has no source available as far as i c
03:35:42 <onetom> am i right or just blind?
04:39:40 <onetom> wow wow, im dling chuck moore videos about colorforth :]
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04:40:10 <onetom> oportet: is that u futhin?
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07:39:33 <Speuler> g'd morning
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08:03:12 <rob_ert> Hello.
08:04:01 <Speuler> hi rob_ert
08:04:12 <rob_ert> Hi to you too, Speuler.
08:52:35 <onetom> rob_ert: have u already tried colorforth?
08:52:40 <rob_ert> Nope
08:52:52 <onetom> it doesnt want to work 4 me
08:53:06 <onetom> would u b so kind as 2 tryit out 4 me?
08:53:49 <onetom> ftp://ftp.ultratechnology.com/COLOR.COM
08:54:20 <onetom> just put an empty floppy into the fdd
08:54:28 <onetom> and start color.com
08:54:41 <onetom> (probably from under dos
08:54:41 <rob_ert> "start" it? From DOS?
08:54:44 <rob_ert> oh
08:54:46 <onetom> )
08:54:48 <rob_ert> Well, I've got DOSemu
08:55:02 <rob_ert> I'll tru
08:55:03 <rob_ert> try*
08:55:04 <onetom> if u have *nix
08:55:11 <rob_ert> Yes?
08:55:24 <onetom> a dd if=color.com of=/dev/fd0
08:55:27 <rob_ert> oh
08:55:38 <onetom> then simply boot from it
08:55:58 <onetom> ive tried it on 3 different computers
08:56:17 <rob_ert> I don't have any computer free atm
08:56:25 <onetom> but in each case i got only an empty screen
08:56:34 <onetom> atm?
08:57:04 <rob_ert> At The Moment
08:57:50 <onetom> im also thinkin on tring it out under vmware or sg like that
08:57:57 <onetom> bfn
08:58:33 <rob_ert> bfn?
08:59:42 <oportet> bnf
08:59:56 <rob_ert> bnf?
09:00:07 <oportet> onetom: which colorforth?  chuck moore's?
09:00:20 <oportet> re the sources
09:00:59 <oportet> rob_ert: BNF = infix.. forget the acronym..
09:01:42 <oportet> onetom:  colorforth worked for me
09:01:51 <oportet> get it from www.colorforth.com
09:01:54 <oportet> if you aren't..
09:02:25 <oportet> ok, nm
09:03:59 <oportet> onetom:  start color.com in dos, off the hdd, then type save, and it'll save it to the floppy..
09:04:02 <oportet> then reboot
09:04:15 <oportet> and boot off the floppy
09:20:09 <oportet> i don't think you are supposed to use dd to get color.com onto the floppy..
09:33:24 <oportet> rob_ert:  http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/bnfparse.htm
09:34:12 <oportet> i don't think onetom was actually typing bnf though heheh
09:34:56 <oportet> bfn = bye for now ??
10:20:38 <oportet> bfn = bye for now
10:22:31 <rob_ert> bnf = bye now for? :P
10:22:49 <oportet> heheh
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12:02:42 <rob_ert> Hello :)
12:18:23 <MrReach> hhihi!!
12:18:32 <MrReach> quite a bit of backlog to read
12:19:00 <MrReach> if you see I440r before I do, please tell him to rename his case to something else, so that it doesn't confuse people
12:19:07 <MrReach> perhaps SELECT
12:19:18 <MrReach> erm ... that would conflict with the system calls
12:19:21 <MrReach> hmmm ...
12:19:37 <MrReach> maybe SWITCH
12:19:52 <MrReach> or CHOOSE
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14:41:39 <rob_ert> Hello
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15:16:42 <MrReach> hihi!
15:17:04 <Soap`> Morning
15:17:22 <MrReach> I440r: I wanted to point out that if you're going to define CASE/OF so differently, you should rename it it to something less common
15:17:45 <MrReach> maybe CHOOSE or SWITCH
15:18:14 <MrReach> the word SELECT would probably interfere with your syscalls interface in your system
15:18:21 <MrReach> I440r: you awake?
15:18:48 <MrReach> what's new with you, Soap`
15:18:50 <MrReach> ??
15:21:03 <Soap`> Not much. Still plugging away at my net library
15:24:21 <I440r> hey!
15:24:23 <I440r> yea
15:24:25 <I440r> i am now :)
15:24:42 <MrReach> glad to hear
15:24:45 <I440r> no - i dont see a point :)
15:24:51 <I440r> i know its different
15:25:17 <I440r> i MIGHT even totally remove the definition for endof heh
15:25:39 <MrReach> why would you deliberately redefine a commonly used word to have unexpected results???
15:25:40 <I440r> it wouldnt conflict with syscalls
15:25:46 <I440r> all syscalls are bounded with < and >
15:25:48 <I440r> <read>
15:25:51 <I440r> <write>
15:25:56 <I440r> <select>
15:26:02 <MrReach> you would not use SELECT to wait on multiple file/socket handles?
15:26:23 <MrReach> no, I meant the commonly used *nix and Windows system call
15:26:29 <I440r> er - im not doing so right now but i would :)
15:26:42 <MrReach> you are with CASE
15:26:43 <I440r> yes - all syscalls are <syscallname>
15:26:48 <MrReach> heh
15:26:53 <I440r> but it has very close syntax
15:26:55 <MrReach> I understand that
15:26:59 <I440r> it just imposes a few restrictions heh
15:27:16 <I440r> but its also more powerful, compiles alot smaller and executes alot faster
15:27:26 <MrReach> eventually, there will probably be a function that allows waiting on many file handles with a timeout, right?
15:27:43 <I440r> if the uer understands the restrictions he/she wont be steared wrong
15:27:49 <MrReach> it also has a COMPLETELY different syntax and stack effect
15:28:00 <I440r> not a differnt syntax
15:28:01 <I440r>  case
15:28:04 <I440r>   x of dothis
15:28:05 <I440r>  y of dothat
15:28:09 <I440r>  endcase
15:28:14 <MrReach> that is not how CASE is defined
15:28:17 <I440r> if you want you can have endof after dothis or dothat
15:28:32 <MrReach> [code that leaves item on stack] CASE
15:28:43 <I440r> yes
15:28:59 <MrReach> [code that leaves comparison item] OF [code to perform if successful] ENDOF
15:29:00 <MrReach> [code that leaves comparison item] OF [code to perform if successful] ENDOF
15:29:02 <MrReach> [code that leaves comparison item] OF [code to perform if successful] ENDOF
15:29:14 <MrReach> [default code executed if nothing matches]
15:29:21 <MrReach> ENDCASE
15:29:42 <I440r> my case nworks identical to that but
15:29:46 <MrReach> *WAY* different
15:29:54 <I440r> you can only have one word between of and endof :)
15:29:58 <I440r> i can do
15:29:59 <I440r>  case
15:30:10 <I440r>  blah blah blah blah blah (leaves result) of dothis 
15:30:21 <I440r> blah blah blah blah blah of dothat
15:30:21 <MrReach> can you have many parts to calculate the comparison item just before OF ??
15:30:30 <I440r> yes
15:30:31 <MrReach> ok
15:30:42 <MrReach> is there a default clause?
15:30:42 <I440r> you are in interpret mode for the body of the of
15:30:45 <I440r> of the case
15:30:49 <I440r> no there is no default
15:30:57 <I440r> THAT is different
15:31:02 <I440r> but i might add it
15:31:04 <MrReach> so there's two substantial differences
15:31:05 <I440r> case * of 
15:31:25 <MrReach> yours might be the better implementation
15:31:32 <I440r> it is :P
15:31:33 <I440r> heh
15:31:34 <MrReach> but *PLEASE* name it something else
15:32:34 <I440r> i can do that
15:32:39 <I440r> if you give me a good name :)
15:32:51 <I440r> >case< 
15:32:55 <I440r> >of<
15:32:56 <I440r> heh
15:33:07 <MrReach> well, not SELECT because it is likely to be part of a system wait function
15:33:21 <I440r> that wouldnt conflict but it would cause confusion factor
15:33:25 <MrReach> how about CHOOSE/CHOICE
15:33:43 <MrReach> granted, a  tad more verbose
15:33:46 <I440r> hrm doesnt have the same effect -
15:33:54 <I440r> ya heh but verbosity isnt alway sbad heh
15:34:02 <I440r> how about choose and opt ?
15:34:03 <I440r> choose
15:34:07 <I440r>  x opt dothis
15:34:10 <I440r>  y opt dothat ?
15:34:14 <MrReach> ok
15:34:22 <I440r> end-of-choices
15:34:23 <I440r> erm
15:34:31 <MrReach> but when I think "opt" I usually think "command line options"
15:34:38 <MrReach> you can thank perl for that
15:34:39 <I440r> thats args
15:34:50 <MrReach> ah! quite true
15:35:13 <I440r> it takes 4 hours and 29 minutes for my forth to find all soultions to the 52 sided golygon :)
15:35:18 <I440r> find all 52 sided golygons
15:35:34 <MrReach> is that good or bad?
15:35:41 <MrReach> how long does it take gforth?
15:35:46 <I440r> it only took 8 minuts to find all 48 sided ones
15:35:51 <I440r> i dunno i dont have gforth ]
15:35:53 <I440r> oh
15:35:58 <MrReach> I expect isforth to run about 1/2 as fast as gforth
15:36:12 <I440r> by the way. the problem i had with constants being faster than literals was a VERY VERY obscure bug heh
15:36:31 <I440r> 100 million 0 do some-constant drop loop takes a minute 20
15:36:33 <MrReach> sounds like an advantage to me
15:36:52 <I440r> 100 milion 0 do some-literal drop loop takes 7 seconds
15:37:17 <I440r> this pleases me heh
15:37:45 <MrReach> I bet
15:37:59 <MrReach> can you get the constant time down?
15:38:13 <I440r> i dont know - doconstant is very small
15:38:15 <MrReach> constants, theoretically, should be as fast as literals
15:38:25 <I440r> xchg ebx, [esp]
15:38:29 <I440r>  mov ebx, [ebx]
15:38:56 <I440r> i could do what fpc does
15:39:15 <MrReach> you're gonna be mad at me
15:39:21 <I440r> make the constants JMP to doconstant instead of call it
15:39:30 <I440r> prolly not - im very forgiving heh
15:39:37 <MrReach> that will cut a few clocks
15:39:55 <I440r> then use the fact that the previous next made eax point to the cfa
15:39:57 <I440r> so just
15:40:01 <I440r>  jmp doconstant
15:40:05 <I440r>  dd the-body
15:40:07 <MrReach> there are several software projects that I need to accomplish for my real-estate biz
15:40:09 <I440r> doconstant:
15:40:15 <I440r>  push ebx
15:40:21 <I440r>  mov ebx, [eax+5]
15:40:23 <I440r>  next
15:40:27 <I440r> would that be faster ?
15:40:33 <MrReach> dunno
15:40:38 <I440r> me either heh
15:40:44 <MrReach> have to try it and clock it
15:40:48 <I440r> but even if it is its very obscure
15:41:03 <I440r> almost obfuscated even heh
15:41:10 <I440r> neway = why would i be mad at you :P
15:41:13 <MrReach> heh, how many people do you expect to go mucking about inside of doconstant ???
15:41:29 <MrReach> there are several software projects that I need to accomplish for my real-estate biz
15:42:07 <I440r> erm ... mucking arround inside? - not many. but if you use the language i think you should understand how it works - and having obtuse code doesnt help in understanding heh
15:42:32 <MrReach> one of them is the central server, who's job is to route mail and voice messages, track leads and contact, and serve web pages (probably at www.pugetproperties.com)
15:42:40 <I440r> well. if my assembler takes a back burner to your feeding your family why would i be mad at you
15:43:09 <MrReach> another is handler for the modem/fax/voice system
15:43:34 <MrReach> another is a wiki of real estate terms, concepts, and proceedures
15:44:12 <MrReach> another is a revamp of the default way that my pocketpc does data entry for todo items and contacts
15:44:32 <MrReach> in *ALL* these things, I've chosen not to use Forth
15:45:01 <I440r> forth is a tool
15:45:11 <I440r> if theres an easier way - then forth isnt the BEST tool
15:45:17 <MrReach> which I think is a sad thing ... it *COULD* have fulfilled these roles if it were a little farther along.
15:45:50 <I440r> u mean if isforth was slightly in advance of its present location it would be of use to you now ?
15:45:50 <I440r> duh
15:45:55 <I440r> sorry dood - i took a year off heh
15:46:00 <MrReach> nonono
15:46:06 <MrReach> I meant forth in general
15:46:12 <MrReach> any forth
15:47:21 <MrReach> would you like some examples of where using forth would have been shoving a square peg in a round hole??
15:47:30 <I440r> sure :)
15:47:58 <MrReach> ok, my major concern is there there are three rather different platforms and operating systems
15:48:21 <MrReach> Windows98, Linux, and WindowsCE
15:48:33 <MrReach> all of which have GUIs
15:48:56 <MrReach> I can't find *a* forth that runs on all three
15:49:11 <MrReach> neither can I find a forth that does windowing well
15:49:50 <MrReach> most forths that do windowing at all leave you completely exposed to the vagaries of the underlying API
15:49:58 <MrReach> next ...
15:50:33 <MrReach> all of these projects, except the voicemail, rely extensively on network sockets to communicate with each other
15:50:51 <MrReach> most forths don't even know what a socket is
15:51:06 <I440r> ya. isforth will
15:51:08 <MrReach> the two that do don't document the interface at all
15:51:37 <MrReach> now, the exception to that is the voicemail
15:52:05 <I440r> skip carter wrote some socket extensions for gforth - i took a look at them and they are all C code - i didnt bother looking at them in depth
15:52:34 <MrReach> while forth is good with serial ports in a DOS environ, I have a *HELL* of a time trying to set the line discipline and buffering modes on a modem in Linux
15:53:08 <MrReach> it was a total exercise in fustration
15:53:39 <I440r> hehe my dad always used BNU to do the serial io
15:53:42 <MrReach> instead, I have chosen to use Tcl/TK for all these things
15:53:55 <MrReach> it run on all three platforms
15:53:58 <I440r> he contacted the auther of the fossil asking if it was ok to use. its abandonware so he said yes
15:54:13 <I440r> i had a feeling thats what u would use heh
15:54:15 <MrReach> EXACTLY the same on each, including the windowing/GUI functions
15:54:49 <MrReach> I've even gone so far as to scrap Apache and use a web server written entirely in TCL
15:55:15 <MrReach> it makes it a breeze for me to add dynamic contect and expance the functionality of the server
15:55:51 <MrReach> including interface to a varietry of SQL databases (good luck getting forth to do THAT)
15:56:12 <I440r> eep hehe
15:56:18 <I440r> database stuff realy bores me heh
15:56:20 <MrReach> the only reason I'm whining to you about this ...
15:56:42 <MrReach> (it bores me to tears, too, but it's the only way to handle large quantites of data)
15:56:52 <MrReach> the only reason I'm whining to you about this ...
15:57:07 <MrReach> is that forth *COULD HAVE* done all these things
15:57:18 <I440r> ya
15:57:25 <MrReach> but nobody seems to have the vision to put it together
15:57:34 <I440r> i want sockets, i want xlib eventually - i want all of that :)
15:57:56 <I440r> and as you have already pointed out. thers NOTHING to prevent isforth from being ported to windows 9ugh) hehe
15:58:01 <MrReach> there's no reason that sockets can't work identically on Windows and Linux, from the API perspective
15:58:12 <MrReach> but it's not likely to
15:58:46 <MrReach> and there no reason why the commands to draw an input text widget can't work identically on those platforms, either
15:58:49 <MrReach> but it's not likely to
15:59:21 <MrReach> if you can't tell, I'm kinda disappointed
15:59:32 <I440r> heh
15:59:41 <I440r> "  <-- just a little tho eh ?
16:00:00 <MrReach> beg parden?
16:00:19 <MrReach> oh, ok, you're saying you understand, I think
16:00:36 <I440r> yes
16:00:57 <I440r> "  <-- a small quantity or a small distance - i.e. a little heh
16:01:08 <MrReach> ah! thanks
16:02:28 <I440r> how one gets the job done is important - but its not as important as getting the job done
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16:02:56 <MrReach> to me, the most important things are time and future extensibility
16:03:36 <I440r> yes
16:04:09 <MrReach> I'm totally screwed if I can manage my info in new and novel ways
16:04:17 <MrReach> CAN'T manage
16:04:57 <I440r> :)
16:05:03 <MrReach> for example, to start I'll be able to send/receive faxes to/from a web page
16:05:29 <MrReach> in the future, I expect to notify clients of a promosing home for them via automated fax
16:05:33 <MrReach> or email
16:05:51 <I440r> cool!
16:06:15 <I440r> having just gone thru the process of aquiring a house i knnow what that ppl want that sort of info
16:06:57 <MrReach> if I get a voicemail message on my fancy modem, I want to be able to access it from a web page, or have it forwarded to my email ... or have the modem redial my cell phone and deliver the message to me
16:07:23 <MrReach> depending on who teh message is from
16:08:04 <I440r> based on message source ?
16:08:08 <MrReach> yes
16:08:48 <MrReach> also, I'm discovering that I'm accuiring about 5-10 new names/addresses/contacts a week in my pocketPC
16:09:02 <MrReach> but they all go into the same list
16:09:08 <MrReach> it's HUGE
16:09:24 <MrReach> but the damn software isn't programmable
16:09:44 <I440r> :)
16:09:45 <MrReach> so now I have to scrap it, and figure out a versatile way of doing it in TCL
16:10:02 <MrReach> and manually transfer all that data
16:10:19 <MrReach> (hopefully the LAST time I have to do it manually)
16:10:58 <I440r> eep!
16:11:09 <I440r> your going to die at the keyboard typing in names hehe
16:11:18 <I440r> your finters are going to wear away :)
16:11:33 * MrReach growls, "no shit, but what choice do I have?"
16:11:54 <MrReach> I can't being looking up phone numbers from a 700 element list
16:12:07 <MrReach> that's insane
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16:12:37 <MrReach> and it better do the change *NOW* while i've only got 200 numbers or so
16:13:13 <MrReach> well, I gotta go
16:13:17 <I440r> no way to transfer the database to the new host and run a conversion on it ?
16:13:23 <I440r> nite dood - take care!
16:13:40 <MrReach> there might be a way to parse the data out of the WinCE contacts files
16:13:51 <MrReach> or perhaps an export function of some type
16:14:02 <MrReach> yeah, I'll be back in about 2 hours
16:14:21 <MrReach> perhaps with a better attitude
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18:21:04 <bpt> I440r: isforth munges the display unnicely
18:21:24 <bpt> I440r: ping?
18:21:40 <bpt> I440r: is that a known problem?
18:21:46 <I440r> hehe
18:21:58 <I440r> that shouldnt happen
18:22:02 <I440r> but i know what happned
18:22:14 <I440r> isforth sets non canonical mode
18:22:23 <I440r> amongst other things
18:22:28 <bpt> I440r: yeah, try `isforth', then `bye', then `less quotes'
18:22:31 <I440r> tell me how you built isforth ?
18:22:49 <I440r> explain that again ?
18:22:50 <bpt> I440r: `make linux', then ./kernel.com, then fload isforth.f
18:22:53 <I440r> less quotes ?
18:22:55 <bpt> I440r: yes
18:23:02 <I440r> er. whats less quotes
18:23:02 <bpt> I440r: page the `quotes' file
18:23:05 <bpt> I440r: or any file
18:23:09 <I440r> ohhh 
18:23:11 <I440r> let me try
18:23:12 <bpt> I440r: the quotes file that comes with isforth :)
18:23:14 <bpt> I440r: just any file
18:23:21 <bpt> I440r: it's screwing up the top line
18:23:43 <I440r> aha - its the scroll region
18:23:50 <I440r> ive no idea why its doing that for you
18:23:53 <I440r> run isforth
18:23:55 <I440r> say statoff
18:23:56 <I440r> then quit
18:24:02 <I440r> then less quotes
18:24:14 <bpt> I440r: that works
18:24:23 <bpt> I440r: isforth should do that before exiting (IMO)
18:24:39 <I440r> it doews
18:24:40 <I440r> does
18:24:53 <I440r> oh
18:24:53 <I440r> wait
18:24:57 <I440r> what terminal are you using
18:24:57 <I440r> heh
18:25:03 <bpt> I440r: an xterm
18:25:05 <I440r> i just fixed some problems with some terminals
18:25:07 <I440r> aha
18:25:22 <I440r> let me see with xterm
18:25:52 <I440r> i guess ive fixed the problem its not showing up here
18:26:09 <bpt> I440r: I can barely write an assembler `hello world' program so far - what does `dd' do?
18:26:22 <I440r> dd is a dword
18:26:26 <I440r>  dd 1
18:26:30 <bpt> doubleword?
18:26:31 <I440r> assembles a literal
18:26:34 <I440r> 0000001
18:26:39 <I440r> 32 bits
18:26:45 <I440r> dw is dword
18:26:51 <I440r> data word in mean
18:26:54 <bpt> what's a dword?
18:26:55 <I440r> dd is data double word
18:26:57 <bpt> data word, ok
18:27:04 <I440r> dword is double word heh
18:27:08 <I440r> db is byte of corse :)
18:27:17 <bpt> kewl, I guessed correctly :)
18:29:20 <bpt> *sigh* I need to learn asm, but I probably need to learn Smalltalk more :/
18:29:49 <bpt> http://www.infoshop.org/graphics/poster2.jpg
18:29:52 <bpt> nice poster :)
18:32:45 * bpt wonders if he's going to get flamed
18:33:30 <I440r> its not finished loading in yet :)
18:34:14 <I440r> lol heh
18:34:23 <I440r> i dont NEED to report suspicious activities
18:34:27 <I440r> i can just shoot the bastards :P
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19:09:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:48:34 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
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22:17:46 <onetom> hi
22:18:02 <rob_ert> hello :)
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22:21:43 <rob_ert> Hi
22:22:08 <Soap`> 'ello
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.03.24