00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.23 00:23:33 --- nick: SoapSleep -> Soap` 01:09:17 hm 01:09:18 2 am 01:09:24 soon i'll go to bed :P 01:20:12 hm, good morning onetom and good evening to me 01:20:17 * futhin goes to sleep 01:20:37 --- quit: futhin ("bed") 03:27:18 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapSleep 03:40:46 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 04:19:28 [12:24] heh, Zope supports SOAP 04:26:38 shell extension 4 g4th: 04:26:38 : $ [char] #cr parse system ; 04:27:12 : $ #cr parse system ; 04:27:19 $ ls 04:28:02 u can try it on my site: ssh try:x@hermantom.homeip.net 04:53:48 --- quit: rob_ert (":)") 05:02:34 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 05:13:21 rob_ert: www.forthos.org 05:13:56 rob_ert: have a look @ its sources. funny 2 see an os in 4th 05:14:05 Whoa, cool :) 05:14:38 i havent managed 2 make it work, coz make testb cries 4 many things 05:14:47 like voidfun 05:15:38 u also have 2 say s/std.h/unistd.h/ s/stat.h/sys/stat.h/ (*i think*) 05:15:49 in testb.c 05:16:25 but the the sources r more important than seeing the actual binary running 05:16:30 b4n 06:23:04 --- quit: rob_ert (":)") 07:11:51 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 08:41:08 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust12.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:41:15 Hey =) 08:41:31 mrreach you there ???? :) 08:41:33 hi rob :) 08:43:14 is mrreach active ? 08:43:42 he ususally changes to "mrgone" or "mrwhatver" 08:44:00 Well, there's been no activity in a while 08:44:05 doh :P 08:44:08 he 08:44:23 he challenged me to write an improvement to "case" yesterday 08:44:25 i did :P 08:44:33 now he isnt here so i cant gloat :P 08:44:54 heeh ;) 09:43:11 --- quit: rob_ert (":)") 09:45:31 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 09:49:59 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 09:57:13 onetom: there are a few dos forths which can run natively 10:26:20 [02:13] rob_ert: www.forthos.org 10:26:20 [02:14] rob_ert: have a look @ its sources. funny 2 see an os in 4th 10:26:20 [02:14] Whoa, cool :) 10:26:56 did ya think of this? 10:27:40 fare mentioned it 2 days b4 10:28:24 but i havent succeeded in starting it yet 10:32:42 fare has also drew my attention 2 poplog 10:33:00 u should know more about it 10:33:23 personaly, i havent analyzed it yet 10:35:39 but the amount of the existing stuff written in it is noteworthy 10:36:25 plz tell me your opinion on it. 10:41:39 or "opinion about"? 10:45:19 ah i'm back 10:45:37 my trillian is weird 10:45:43 sends away message when i'm not 10:46:09 i downloaded forthos from forthos.org last week :P 10:46:22 hm 10:46:27 there's some dos native forths 10:46:30 and there's colorforth 10:46:31 etc 10:47:15 also http://retro.tunes.org 10:49:21 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 10:49:34 howdy folks 10:51:25 --- part: qless left #forth 10:56:02 i'm looking at pop-11 code 10:56:24 it doesn't look very postfixish 10:57:08 ayay :) 10:57:13 btw, i disagree with Fare on drawing distinctions between HLL and LLL 10:57:40 hmmMmm, u r an intensive log reader :) 10:57:59 i've disagreed with him before on #tunes :P 10:58:18 it doesnt matter anyway if a lang doesnt look postfixish, 10:58:24 i think to say a language is lowlevel or highlevel is purely arbitrary and quite useless 10:58:59 it only should b easy 2 translate (compile) it into a stackmachine code 11:00:06 eg, lisp or tcl also has a pretty simple syntax 11:00:49 i downloaded tcl for windows 11:00:59 --- join: rob_ert (~root@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 11:01:01 brbr 11:01:06 brb 11:01:06 wb rob_ert 11:01:07 What is the default telnet port? 23? 11:01:09 Hi :) 11:01:11 yes 11:01:12 23 11:01:15 OK, thanks 11:01:20 22 for ssh 11:01:28 I'm trying to get some things working 11:01:29 21 for ftp or email? 11:01:33 ftp 11:01:54 what's the email one hmmmmm 11:01:58 Anyway, if I succeed, you'll be able to visit a web page on my Minix based web server :P 11:02:01 brb 11:02:03 --- quit: rob_ert (Client Quit) 11:27:04 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 11:27:53 Hey 11:27:55 Have anyone here done Linux port forwarding? 11:32:14 well... 11:32:39 theres a package in debian what can do such things 11:33:00 apt-cache search port\ forward 11:33:21 hehe 11:33:25 well, I'm getting helped 11:33:32 and I don't have debian, btw 11:35:48 eh, u have! 11:36:22 guest:x@hermantom.homeip.net is open 2 u 2 11:36:34 its a potato system 11:36:46 hehe 11:36:48 :D 11:37:00 w very loose security restrictions 11:37:07 so mind yr hands 11:37:08 root access? :P 11:37:42 certainly root access is not available, but probably u can gain root acc 11:37:53 if u have some crackin talent 11:38:12 I don't even want to try :) 11:38:13 but plz dont use it 4 anything malicious 11:38:31 I don't want to take the risk of messing up anything in your box. 11:38:49 have u already tried the try:x acc on it? 11:39:36 and my dumb shell extension 4 gforth? 11:39:49 : $ cr #cr parse system ; 11:39:50 what shell extention? 11:39:50 $ ls 11:44:46 how do u like it? 11:45:05 * rob_ert logs in 11:45:37 uhm 11:46:22 how do I use that shell extention? 11:47:46 just as ive shown u 11:48:13 compile the word $ 11:48:21 but then? 11:48:44 then type $ ls 11:48:46 guest@ex:~> $ ls 11:48:46 bash: $: command not found 11:48:54 the string from the $ upto the next 11:48:55 um 11:49:01 you aren't in the forth shell 11:49:04 is executed as a shell command 11:49:23 rob_ert: eh, not as guest! 11:49:26 rob_ert: relogin as "try" 11:49:30 [08:39] have u already tried the try:x acc on it? 11:50:07 thx futhin 11:50:12 heh, sorry :) 11:50:59 cool :) 11:55:17 onetom: but how do we make it so that it is permanently displaying the $ ? :) 12:02:23 $ sh ;) 12:04:47 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 12:05:03 heh, no, that would put me into shell 12:05:08 i wanna stay in gforth ;) 12:06:08 S" command" system 12:06:37 btw, is there a standard word for strings with character quoting? 12:07:08 i wouldn't know heh :P 12:08:09 Fare: i doubt 12:11:09 www.cigvejy.com :D 12:11:31 http://www.angryflower.com/ :D 12:11:58 hihi 12:16:47 Fare: no there isn't 12:17:04 character escaping is totally system dependent 12:17:10 at least in ANS 12:17:42 if you're talking a specific system, light gforth, then it is likely to have some escapes 12:20:09 I *KNOW* yoiu guys were typing two minutes ago as I came into the room 12:29:40 hm? 12:29:45 i was afk :P 12:45:00 MrReach: :))) u r a bit paranoid 12:58:44 besides, i put those urls up 12:58:48 and everyone ignored me! 12:58:55 * futhin cries! 12:59:07 hi 12:59:48 hm? :P 13:00:14 ugh 13:00:17 i abuse emoticons 13:00:20 i use too many 13:00:23 or some such 13:02:11 futhin: cultural differences, probably ;) 13:03:05 i find almost every line i type has an emoticon 13:03:10 it starts to feel sickening 13:03:14 and ppl tend to ignore me more 13:03:17 when i have emoticons 13:03:19 i think 13:03:38 so, emoticons are evil, and i must stop using them :) 13:06:01 bah, for fun, i should just go to the #philosophy chan on dalnet/efnet.. lots of fun messing up ppl's minds :D 13:06:08 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear") 13:22:39 --- nick: SoapSleep -> Soap- 13:53:08 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust36.tnt2.bloomington.in.temp.da.uu.net) joined #forth 13:56:19 I gotta go 13:56:23 greets, I440r 13:56:35 hi :) 13:56:36 will look at your code late tonight or mid-tomorrow 13:56:40 heh 13:56:41 ok 13:56:55 there's a big to-do meeting with the Mel's hole group 13:56:59 no hurry im sorta bleh'ing out today :P 13:57:12 eh ? 13:57:14 and I practically live at mel's hole, so I'm gonna go just from grins and giggles 13:57:19 http://www.seattleartbellchatclub.com/MelsHole.html 13:57:32 me go look :) 13:57:36 bottomless pit that supposed to be around here somewhere 13:58:03 anyway, will be back late tonight 13:58:08 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 13:58:17 hehe 13:58:32 is there gold at the erm infinitly deep bottom ? 13:58:42 nobody knows 13:58:58 all the local farmers dumped refuse and garbage into it for 15 years 13:59:22 and then STILL couldn't find the bottom, 10,000 feet so far 13:59:28 eh? 13:59:32 it's on an island 13:59:40 i saw a picture 13:59:42 no, it's about an hour's drive from here 13:59:46 seemed like a pretty small island 13:59:53 yea!!!!!!!!!1 14:00:00 oh, maybe there's two different holes 14:00:03 near the Yakima firing range 14:00:04 its that dee ? 14:00:04 anyone ever go down there ? 14:00:15 no 14:00:21 everyone is spooked by it 14:00:28 bah 14:00:38 i'd go down there if somebody funded and set it up 14:00:40 but they've dropped 10,000 feet of fishing line with a weight down it 14:00:46 and didn't hit bottom 14:00:59 i know some guys in england that do that sort of thing 14:01:12 and it appears to be perfectly straight and vertical all the way down 14:01:16 caving and pot holing 14:01:16 they would go in :) 14:01:40 they wouldnt be able to tell 14:01:40 the weight of the line itself would keep the line taught 14:01:48 I'd pay for the equipment myself, and even volunteer to remove 15 years of car tires and dead cows 14:02:09 but the military took it over about 10 years ago 14:02:17 lol 14:02:19 hehe 14:02:20 why? 14:02:30 aliens live down there? 14:02:33 they are dumping dead arabs down there now :P 14:02:40 something that straight and deep is likely to be artificial 14:02:59 which means there's likely to be something interesting at the bottom 14:02:59 i heard that osama bin laden was a cia operative ?? 14:03:05 he was 14:03:13 and still is 14:03:13 when he was in Egypt 14:03:41 I'm sure he's still got his old contacts, but that doesn't mean they're of any use to him 14:04:28 if I were one of his handlers and he came to me, I'd tell him to come back in 10 years, when things have cooled off, if he can survive that long 14:04:55 I may or may not report the contact to my superiors. 14:05:58 well, I'm off to shower 14:22:27 is there anybody here who has already written a larger app in 4th? 14:22:32 w many modules 14:22:45 say more than 20 14:23:48 is it a common practice using "require"s @ the beginning of modules? 14:23:53 just like in C, eg? 14:35:30 not me 14:35:33 yet :) 14:44:07 yes, among professionals 14:46:09 i dislike it 14:46:16 it encourages bad coding practices 14:46:26 like not knowiing if a file has been included or not yet :P 14:46:52 and it also encourages you to NOT know what files depend on what files 15:04:38 I440r: ??? 15:05:19 the opposite of it 15:05:58 u HAVE TO know what other modules does your module require 15:10:34 no it buries what bets included where and by whome 15:10:39 you have this file include that file 15:10:46 that file inclues another 15:10:51 that one includes another 15:10:59 and you end up with a mess just like in c 15:12:05 you have no idea what file got included by what file when or where 15:12:20 al you know is that alot of files "require" this lib file so its guaranteed to have bene included by one etc 15:12:23 bad coding 15:15:21 * onetom is in a bad mood 15:15:29 gnight 4 every1 15:15:36 night támas! 15:16:38 sorry 15:16:44 nite 15:16:48 thx 15:17:41 I440r: how would u do it instead? 15:18:29 i have one load file per project 15:18:45 ALL included files are included from the one load file 15:18:53 no source file includea any other 15:19:05 if i forget to includ something thats missing then the file that requires it will barf with 15:19:14 somewordname ? 15:19:20 and ill know what i missed 15:19:48 but this concept requires the knowledge 15:20:02 of all the dependency info 15:20:17 every time when u have to use a module 15:20:19 yes 15:20:28 and why is it good? 15:20:31 i.e. you need to understand the code you are writing 15:20:51 down to the last brick all the time??? 15:21:09 YES 15:21:34 its non-sense 15:21:34 because any time you let that concept slip just a little 15:21:34 you let it slip more 15:21:34 and more 15:21:34 and more 15:21:44 and then you end up wcoding in c :P 15:21:59 u can hold all the info related 2 a prj in yr head all the time 15:21:59 where you need MOMMY to hold your hand and remember everything for you 15:22:23 if its too big and complex for you to manage it 15:22:23 you need to rewrite it 15:22:43 u only have 2 remember the app interface not the actual implementation 15:23:13 why should i rewrite a whole os? 15:23:23 [11:22] is there anybody here who has already written a larger app in 4th? 15:23:27 [11:35] not me 15:23:28 [11:35] yet :) 15:23:36 you write it in such a way that you dont HAVE to 15:23:46 now i c that statement ;) 15:23:51 if you have alot of complex shit to remember you need to start over :P 15:24:02 i doubt 15:24:09 but lets make a test 15:24:17 ok? 15:24:33 k 15:24:35 do u have some time 2 look over my project? 15:25:11 not right now but i can some other time 15:25:18 what is your project again? 15:25:47 the digital building control sys 15:26:10 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/include-graph.jpg 15:26:45 this is an early state of the module dependency tree 15:27:04 of a microcontroler program 15:27:51 remind me about that url sometime - this is the sort of thing that realy interests me :) 15:28:18 but i got toomuch going on right at this instant in time 15:28:20 @least check it now, plz 15:28:42 just a glimpse 15:29:28 ok heh 15:30:20 ok what is taht ? 15:30:54 what is what? 15:31:12 as the .fs could whisper 15:31:23 these r 4th src files 15:31:28 ok 15:31:31 dependancies ? 15:31:46 and the arrows show which 1 reqs which others 15:32:13 ok 15:32:21 eg, (@ the bottom left) slave.fs requires datablock.fs 15:32:56 the lighter lines show those "require" instances 15:33:24 where require did nothing, coz that module was already reqed 15:35:13 k 15:35:59 (im working on a similar graph 4 the pc side program) 15:36:16 (it will b a bit more terse, iguess) 15:37:13 heh 15:38:40 i never do this sort of thing 15:38:40 myself 15:39:37 just like me 15:40:02 but while i was developing this prj 15:40:17 i basically code on instinct heh 15:40:23 it became very hard 2 overview it 15:40:50 so i have developed some dependency inspector 15:40:59 i RERELY do things like flowchart eithyer but there have been times when i did so just to sort out who does what and when etc.... 15:41:41 the documentation is usually not too important 15:41:49 while theres only 1 developer 15:42:09 and she can keep all the stuff in his/her mind 15:42:42 coz the prj is not that big OR the devel time is not too long 15:42:59 BUT if any of these conditions fail 15:43:26 u will end up missing the docs uve never written :P 15:44:02 hehe 15:44:11 then u will experience the breeze of pain of the lack of dox ;) 15:44:17 docs is something i have to write actually 15:44:17 but not for myself 15:44:34 i can go back to code i wrote 20 years ago and still be able to follow what i did 15:44:44 but u write the sw, so u have the most knowledge of it 15:45:36 coz, u have memories of it 15:45:59 i know what r u talking about, tho i have only ~15yrs experience 15:46:24 s/experience/practice/ 15:46:27 :) 15:46:57 but those were not too serious projects 15:47:46 anyone could imagine the program specification 15:48:14 in those cases just after hearing the program's name :) 15:52:16 :) 15:53:36 what was the most complex program uve ever written? 15:56:29 h,,, 15:56:33 hmmm even 15:56:45 i was writing a checkers program for my x gf hehe 15:57:02 she worked for lucent technologies, all the pieces were lucent logos :)P 15:57:13 i got stuck writing its brains tho heh 15:57:21 it was all in 100% x86 assembler for dos 15:57:23 mode x 15:57:52 uugh 15:57:58 brain in asm?! 15:58:01 the legal moves generator was sorta complex 15:58:03 nice challange 15:58:12 but i found a nifty way of doing it with tables 15:58:18 ALL of it was 100% asm heh 15:58:23 :D 16:03:23 --- quit: Soap- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:03:34 rob_ert: how do U like my dependecy graph? 16:04:01 it shows the required info well 16:05:09 onetom: Dependency graph? 16:05:26 rob_ert: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/include-graph.jpg 16:07:11 hey, ive managed 2 produce the grap of the PC side program 16:07:29 just a sec and i ll make it accessible 16:07:38 uhm 16:07:41 what is that really? 16:11:24 the modules and their dependency on eachother of a microcontroler program 16:12:20 this controller controls the communication bus of the building 16:12:57 this a bridge between the PC and the communication network 16:17:22 --- quit: rob_ert (":)") 16:20:47 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/inc.png 16:21:23 (can remember how 2 make it as nice as include-graph.jpg :-/) 16:25:36 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 16:35:24 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 16:39:04 Hi =) 16:39:13 heya rob_ert :) 16:39:40 http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/inc.png 16:39:55 qless: hi 16:40:21 heya onetom 16:40:27 what is that diagram of? 16:41:55 src file dependency of my building control systems PC side prg 16:42:27 ah 16:42:33 we was talking about the usage policy of REQUIRE 16:44:22 the question is wheather should i put a list of all the modules (src files) 16:44:44 required by a module at the beginning of its src 16:44:57 hmmm 16:45:00 just like in -say- C 16:45:38 or should i maintain the loading order manually 16:45:53 not leaving this task to the intelligence of require.. 16:46:21 in the interest of reuisability, i'd say put it in the source 16:46:44 but i don't know for certain 16:47:05 infact, the ans also advices putting a comment section 16:47:17 at the beginning of each src file 16:47:34 hmmm 16:47:34 that enlists all used wordsets 16:48:03 core, core-ext, double, double-ext & the like 16:48:35 have ever written a bigger prg in 4th? 16:48:40 have u 16:49:01 not really 16:49:17