00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.22
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03:58:59 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth
04:06:16 <rob_ert> Hi people.
04:27:12 <Fare> lo robots
04:27:50 <rob_ert> The leader of the Stockholm party is called Stella Fare.
04:37:06 <Fare> :)
04:37:11 <Fare> Is that good or bad?
04:37:22 <rob_ert> Hmm...
04:37:28 <Fare> does it mean anything in Swedish?
04:37:29 <rob_ert> I can't see a name can be good/bad.
04:37:33 <rob_ert> Nope :)
04:37:43 <rob_ert> Where are you from?
04:37:53 <Fare> Planet Earth
04:37:58 <rob_ert> Oh, OK.
04:37:58 <Fare> (at least, officially)
04:38:13 <rob_ert> Aren't you that guru of tunes? Uhmm... from France?
04:38:23 <Fare> (officiously, I'm a Vegan scouting in preparation of an upcoming invasion)
04:38:27 <Fare> yup
04:39:11 <rob_ert> Nice to meet you then.
04:39:59 <Fare> nice to meet you
04:40:25 <Fare> and who are you?
04:41:17 <rob_ert> I am...Robert. http://ostling.no-ip.com for a short intro (plus a few pictures).
04:41:41 <rob_ert> Hmm... tell me where to put Tunes in the link section btw ;)
04:41:54 <rob_ert> "Weird systems" ? :)
04:43:37 <Fare> VaporWare -- but smells good.
04:44:43 <Fare> "general OS development" ?
04:44:45 <rob_ert> i.e. "Operating Systems under development".
04:44:48 <rob_ert> :P
04:45:02 <rob_ert> I'll put it...somewhere.
04:45:21 <rob_ert> I'm not working hard enough to be able to put it up the next month anyway.
04:49:54 <Fare> what's a 8502? An evil half-breed between 6502 and 8008?
04:50:42 <rob_ert> Heh, no idea.
04:50:51 <rob_ert> Where did you get that from? (Typo on my page?)
04:51:07 <Fare> processor meant to be in the C128D
04:51:17 <Fare> alongside the 6510 and Z80
04:51:25 <rob_ert> Heh
04:51:30 <rob_ert> I have one of those...
04:51:37 <rob_ert> What should they have the 3rd one to?
04:52:45 <Fare> dunno
04:52:57 <Fare> I thought it only had 2 processors, 6510 and z80
04:53:07 <Fare> (with the 6510 being a 6502 + IO)
04:53:51 <onetom> hi
04:54:32 <onetom> oh, some1 from tunes directly! wow :)
04:54:39 <Fare> uh?
04:54:59 <onetom> Fare: r u a tunes developer?
04:55:43 <Fare> meant to be
04:55:49 <rob_ert> onetom: Get yourself a client that can replace your r:s and u:s :)
04:56:05 <rob_ert> "r u a" looks funny, heh.
05:00:58 <onetom> ruahhhahaaa ;)
05:01:22 <rob_ert> :P
05:01:36 <onetom> make UR client replace MY msgs :P
05:01:56 <Fare> onetom: so can I inform you about tunes?
05:02:18 <onetom> if u managed to do it, then we r 1 step closer 2 the irc bot ;)
05:02:32 <onetom> Fare: that would b great
05:02:46 <Fare> :)
05:02:55 <onetom> Fare: dont know, have u heard about our 4th OS project?
05:03:02 <Fare> forthos.org ?
05:03:50 <onetom> Fare: futhin and i started thinking on a 4th os (4os 4 short)
05:04:06 <onetom> no, theres nothing public about it yet
05:04:38 <onetom> but, hey http://www.forthos.org/ exists! loll
05:04:54 <onetom> anyway
05:05:06 <onetom> as ive started wondering about it
05:05:40 <onetom> ive found meself establishing similar goals to the goals of the tunes prj
05:06:06 <onetom> and ive also found the tunes.org 02 days later :)
05:06:15 <onetom> ~2 days..
05:06:15 <Fare> :)
05:06:30 <onetom> but i dont now too much about it
05:07:09 <onetom> coz i havent got the proper amount of timeslice 2 process it :)
05:07:30 <onetom> tho, i ran through it
05:07:47 <onetom> and fell in love w it @ 1st sight
05:08:16 <onetom> but i could ask u some simple questions about it
05:08:39 <onetom> in what language will the tunes os b implemented in?
05:09:30 <onetom> how could we make our now #forthos channel b the friend of clog?
05:09:41 <Fare> a language that will probably be something of a mix betweenlisp, forth, ml and asm
05:11:25 <Fare> I guess I should read more about poplog
05:11:39 <Fare> rob: what are these conspiracy stories about the BlueOS founder?
05:13:05 <rob_ert> He was kind of strange, wanted to turn it into a commercial closed-source system and become rich. When he didn't me beleive when I told him that's not possible, he tried to get one of the other coders of the project with him to code his commercial system.
05:13:14 <rob_ert> I stongly doubt he could code at all.
05:14:26 <Fare> rob: well, maybe he got ideas from NexWave-Solutions.com
05:14:50 * rob_ert doesn't have the energy to look that up.
05:20:11 <onetom> ive checked http://www.vsta.org/ and http://www.forthos.org/
05:20:36 <onetom> they seem very useful things 4 our project
05:21:15 <onetom> Fare: is there any existing part of the "language" what will b the base for the tunes os?
05:21:55 <onetom> or will some part of the os b programmed in some existing languse?
05:22:02 <onetom> language?
05:22:14 <Fare> It's all VaporWare at the time.
05:22:23 <onetom> like C or specific asms?
05:22:33 <Fare> my plan is to metaprogram from CommonLISP
05:22:42 <onetom> aha
05:22:51 <Fare> other people experiment using Squeak
05:23:01 <onetom> thats great!
05:23:06 <Fare> other interesting system to experiment from would be poplog or ocaml
05:23:18 <onetom> we plan to program it our os in 4th :)
05:23:37 <onetom> s/it//
05:24:27 <onetom> what channel r u on regulary?
05:37:16 <onetom> Fare: what about implementing those langs (poplog, ocaml..) in 4th?
05:37:32 <Fare> that's what poplog does
05:37:44 <onetom> wow
05:38:38 <Fare> except that its forth has an integrated gc, and was invented before forth was
05:38:46 <Fare> so it's not called forth
05:42:31 <onetom> integrated gc?
05:42:35 <onetom> whats that?
05:44:15 <onetom> what is the official homepage of poplog?
05:47:05 <onetom> http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianh/poplog.html ?
05:47:22 <Fare> I believe poplog.org works
05:47:38 <Fare> Gc = garbage collector
05:47:47 <Fare> (automatic dynamic memory management)
05:48:01 <Fare> it's what makes the difference between a HLL and a LLL
05:49:45 <onetom> ???
05:49:58 <onetom> high level lang?
05:50:03 <onetom> low level lang?
05:50:41 <Fare> yup
05:52:17 <onetom> thx 4 the directions 2 go :)
05:52:28 <onetom> do u know the NeWS system?
05:52:45 <onetom> (Network Extensible Windowing System)
05:52:48 <Fare> the one with display postscript in the graphical server?
05:56:06 <onetom> yes
05:56:28 <onetom> it also incorporates some nice ideas
05:56:45 <onetom> anyway
05:57:03 <onetom> how come i never heard of poplog yet?
05:57:34 <onetom> tho, ive already met SPSS, eg
05:57:56 <Fare> dunno. Long been proprietary software. been made free software a few years ago
05:58:44 <Fare> I think NeWS died because it was slow, proprietary and buggy
05:59:20 <Fare> whereas X was less slow, free, and you could get bugs fixed
05:59:55 <onetom> i will come if i keep on reading poplog.org :)))
06:00:01 <onetom> thats amazing!
06:00:38 <onetom> well, news was better than X infact
06:00:53 <onetom> and it knew much better then X
06:01:20 <onetom> but it was proprietary, and it was the 
06:02:05 <onetom> main throw-back
06:02:29 <Fare> if you want to compare dick size of old software, then Genera was even better
06:02:39 <onetom> it also required less bandwith eg. and was able to deliver interactivity
06:02:42 <Fare> or Interlisp-D
06:03:07 <onetom> and PS quality graphics
06:03:54 <onetom> it also was HTML+server-side-stuff(cgi)+client-side-stuff(javascript) in itself
06:03:54 <Fare> the Xerox guys using Interlisp-D didn't have a network display protocol. Instead they had a collaborative distributed platform.
06:04:36 <Fare> oh, and Xerox practically invented Postscript printers, didn't they?
06:04:44 <onetom> there r so many interesting stuff out there...
06:04:58 <onetom> where could i learn about such, beside the internet?
06:05:11 <Fare> nowhere
06:05:17 <onetom> r all these stuffs taught at unversities?
06:05:20 <Fare> no
06:05:23 <onetom> univ.
06:05:28 <Fare> well, a tiny bit thereof
06:05:42 <onetom> neither in hungary :(
06:05:47 <Fare> on the other hand, at universities, there are people who know a lot, whom you can interact with
06:06:04 <Fare> and there are machines with which to use the net
06:06:11 <onetom> just like on irc ;)
06:06:17 <Fare> and it gives you a bit of credibility when contacting people
06:06:25 <Fare> just like on irc
06:06:50 <Fare> ecept that by picking the right univ you can interact IRL with people sharing the same interest
06:07:03 <Fare> be sure to contact people first, so as to pick the right univ
06:07:46 <Fare> there is a interlisp-d emulator somewhere on the net
06:07:53 <onetom> well, thx 4 the intro. u gave me few days lasting job :)
06:08:01 <Fare> check http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html
06:08:16 <onetom> okay
06:08:40 <onetom> does it worth 2 dl the popcd.tar?
06:08:43 <Fare> if you're young, have good grades, then by all means try to find a phd grant or so in a lab with people you'd like to work with
06:08:53 <onetom> its a full poplog env 4 linux
06:08:56 <Fare> pop has a lot of good stuff
06:09:16 <Fare> beware: the forth stuff in it is mostly invisible now
06:09:31 <onetom> eh, ive stopped learning @ the univ after 3/4yrs
06:09:48 <onetom> coz i had too much girlfriends
06:09:52 <onetom> and too much job
06:09:55 <Fare> that's good
06:10:14 <onetom> and 1 yr later attended to a college
06:10:22 <onetom> then 4yrs has ellapsed
06:10:39 <Fare> :)
06:10:43 <onetom> but i still have 20 exams remaining
06:11:12 <onetom> and after taking them i have 2 create some diploma thesis
06:11:27 <onetom> but now the army wants me :))
06:11:58 <onetom> they dont accredited my school as a 7 yrs school, just as a 4yrs 1
06:12:21 <onetom> thats the sad status here
06:12:59 <Fare> is there still a draft in hungary?
06:13:14 <Fare> do you fear a new russian invasion?
06:13:15 <onetom> but i will spend my civil-military service @ the university
06:13:29 <onetom> draft?
06:13:38 <onetom> no fear of any invasion
06:13:52 <onetom> we r about 2 join the EU within 2yrs
06:13:55 <Fare> as in: work for nothing at doing stupid things, or be sent to prison
06:15:23 <onetom> u mean military service burden?
06:15:39 <onetom> yes, hungary still has such
06:15:57 <onetom> 6months service w or w/o weapons
06:16:18 * rob_ert notes Fare speaks a bit better english than the ordinary frenchie.
06:16:28 <onetom> or 11month civil service @ hospitals or nonprofit orgs
06:16:36 <onetom>  :)
06:16:43 <rob_ert> FIG? :)
06:16:52 <onetom> fig-4th?
06:17:07 <Fare> rob: how can you know how I *speak* english?
06:17:10 <onetom> FrenchIsGood
06:17:18 <rob_ert> Fare: Write ~= speak :)
06:17:18 <onetom> lolll
06:17:32 <rob_ert> I can't _speak_ it either, but that doesn't count on IRC :)
06:17:37 <Fare> the ordinary frenchie doesn't speak english. He just babbles a few words learnt at school.
06:17:44 <rob_ert> :)
06:17:45 <onetom> neither me :)
06:17:53 <Fare> 7 years of english at school, and incapable of speaking english!
06:17:57 <Fare> what a shame
06:18:02 <rob_ert> Yes.
06:18:06 <onetom> just like me :)))
06:18:11 <rob_ert> Hehe :))
06:18:48 <onetom> ive also learnt german 4 ~1.5yrs in highschool
06:19:08 <onetom> but ich kann nicht sparche deutch
06:19:30 <rob_ert> Hehe :)
06:19:37 <onetom> tho, ich veil spass
06:20:04 <rob_ert> Ich spreche etwa Deutsch, aber ich habe es für ungefähr 5 Jahre gelesen :P
06:20:04 <Fare> gotta go.
06:20:06 <Fare> byte!
06:20:08 <rob_ert> Bye Fare!
06:20:10 <Fare> bye, I mean
06:20:13 <onetom> Fare: cu
06:20:29 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear")
06:20:34 <onetom> rob_ert: ive learnt a lot again :)
06:20:38 * onetom happy
06:24:52 <rob_ert> :D
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06:50:31 <Speuler> 'morning
06:51:35 <onetom> hi
06:51:51 * onetom busy
06:52:21 <Speuler> good :)
06:52:29 <Speuler> multi user editor ?
06:53:36 <rob_ert> ?
06:54:01 <Speuler> i suspect 1tom is working on one
06:54:48 <rob_ert> Ah, cool.
07:01:23 <onetom> Speuler: half of the communication bg 4 the multiuser editor is working
07:01:46 <onetom> but now i have 2 work on my regular job
07:01:55 <onetom> (the building ctrl sys)
07:02:15 <onetom> Speuler: do u know socket programming?
07:15:22 <Speuler> 1tom: sorry, no.  
07:15:31 <Speuler> 1tom: u use x10 ?
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07:33:45 --- log: stopped forth/02.03.22
07:38:28 --- log: started forth/02.03.22
07:38:28 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
07:38:28 --- topic: 'Forth is a programming language, an operating system, an interactive environment, and a philosophy. Read "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie and maximize the quality of your code.'
07:38:28 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Thu Mar 21 04:53:48 2002]
07:38:28 --- names: list (clog Speuler rob_ert onetom @ChanServ)
08:17:48 <onetom> Speuler: x10?!? nooo, its an own development
08:18:10 <onetom> wow [04:39] *** Joins: clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #forthos 
08:18:34 <onetom> rob_ert: do u think Fare made it for us?
08:28:30 <rob_ert> No idea :)
09:24:12 <Speuler> 1tom: hard- en software ?
09:25:28 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
09:25:33 <onetom> hi
09:25:36 <futhin> howdy
09:25:55 <futhin> anything happening?
09:25:55 <onetom>  /me busy
09:26:06 <onetom> not really
09:26:19 <onetom> the msg-reply thing works
09:26:27 <onetom> but i plan 2 recode it
09:26:57 <onetom> and make some docs on the sender-receiver "handshaking" algorithm
09:27:08 <onetom> but just some hrs later
09:27:59 <futhin> hm
09:31:19 --- join: robbe (~robert@trollbundet.sletner.com) joined #forth
09:31:28 <robbe> Hey, version me :)
09:31:54 <onetom> :))
09:31:57 <onetom> funny
09:32:01 <robbe> Yeah, hehe
09:32:20 <robbe> I'm rob_ert, in case someone haven't got that figured out ;)
09:33:02 <onetom> de amugy meg kar beszelni rola ennyit
09:33:06 <onetom> oops
09:33:11 <rob_ert> hehe
09:33:46 <robbe> futhin: :D
09:34:17 <futhin> i have minix on my hdd, not installed though
09:34:54 <rob_ert> I've got it on a computer without network connection.
09:35:09 * robbe wants an ISA ne2k!
09:36:40 --- quit: robbe ()
09:37:11 <Speuler> robbe: realtek 80x9 is a good alternative. ne2k compatible, cheap, fast
09:37:16 <rob_ert> Yes.
09:37:21 <rob_ert> I've got a few of those.
09:37:30 <Speuler> too late
09:37:32 <rob_ert> Hmm... All in different computers all over the house :)
09:39:00 <futhin> bah, i have one computer, p133mhz 32MB RAM..  ph333r!
09:39:24 <futhin> i'm too smart to waste money on better computers ;)
09:39:29 <Speuler> futhin: a speed monster
09:39:51 <futhin> i emulate all the extra features that a faster computer can do with my brain! 
09:40:07 <Speuler> wetware driven computing
09:44:06 <futhin> seriously though.  i consider that a p75mhz with 16 megs of ram is plently fast enough to meet everyone's needs.  the only reason we need faster computers is games, playing movies, 3d stuff, and perhaps some number crunching for mathematics.   but windows XP is so poorly coded, it can't run very well on a p75, what a shame :P
09:44:21 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust65.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
09:44:32 <futhin> howdy i440r
09:44:37 <rob_ert> Hi :)
09:45:39 <I440r> hi
09:45:56 <onetom> hi
10:17:05 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
10:23:09 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
10:23:27 <rob_ert> Hej MrReach.
10:23:33 <MrReach> hihi!
10:27:31 <I440r> mrreach!
10:27:35 <I440r> you done yet ??? :) hehe
10:27:49 <MrReach> not started yet
10:28:03 <MrReach> why the big push suddenly?
10:28:19 <I440r> heh
10:28:35 <I440r> oh - its not sudden realy
10:28:44 <MrReach> is there something you need to optimise really badly?
10:28:47 <I440r> tho im not REALY trying to NAG you :)
10:29:01 <I440r> when you are done - you are done
10:29:01 <MrReach> OH, but you ARE!
10:29:11 * MrReach chuckles.
10:29:14 <I440r> i thunked you were starting it tho
10:29:25 <I440r> corse im nagging a little hehe
10:29:38 <MrReach> I wanted to show you a sample of my sources, to see if you approved
10:29:39 <I440r> tom zimmer had to nag the guy that wrote his :P
10:29:45 <MrReach> what's your current e-mail?
10:29:52 <I440r> i440r@mailcity.com
10:30:08 <MrReach> does that allow POP acess?
10:30:14 <I440r> yes
10:30:21 <MrReach> I might check that out
10:30:24 <I440r> er - i log in with my web browser
10:30:52 <I440r> the netscape web based email works in the netscape mail client
10:31:02 <I440r> i dont think mailcity does tho
10:31:16 <I440r> so i think i misspoke
10:31:39 <MrReach> oh, ok
10:31:51 <I440r> dont use netscape tho
10:31:59 <I440r> i hear it has spyware in it
10:32:14 <I440r> wouldnt supprise me of aol to keep track of where everyone goes for market research
10:32:17 <rob_ert> Spyware :)
10:32:43 <MrReach> on its way
10:33:01 <MrReach> that would not surprise me, either
10:33:07 <MrReach> most irritating
10:33:16 <I440r> would be interesting to watch packets in the raw going out of a box to see if netscape IS sending data to aol behind your bak :)
10:33:24 <I440r> im SURE you could sue them :)
10:33:31 <MrReach> a good hacker would learn to exploit that funtionality
10:33:44 <I440r> in what way ?
10:33:50 <I440r> oohhh
10:33:57 <I440r> start flooding aol with bogus shit heheh
10:34:05 <MrReach> not neccessarily
10:34:08 <I440r> they would deserve it if they were doing that
10:34:18 <MrReach> to learn the personal preferences of someone they don't like
10:34:42 <I440r> oh
10:34:43 <MrReach> have you gotten that e-mail yet?
10:35:02 <I440r> prolly not - mailcity chews on it for an hour or two before digesting it
10:35:07 <MrReach> I'm not sure my server is web-accessible from outside at this point
10:35:15 <I440r> ive had tiny mails take over 24 hours before today grr
10:35:48 <I440r> i got it tho
10:35:49 <I440r> its here
10:35:50 <I440r> looking now
10:36:01 <MrReach> try web browsing to 209.181.43.190
10:36:20 <MrReach> or to 209.181.43.186
10:37:25 <MrReach> I've got a bit of a problem ... though I think it's solvable
10:37:30 <I440r> it looks ok at a glance but can we lose the [IF] [ELSE] and [THEN] ?
10:37:41 <I440r> conditinal compilation is a pain in the ass
10:37:50 <I440r> whats the problem ?
10:37:51 <MrReach> those comment out the documentation section at the beginning
10:37:59 <I440r> oh ok
10:38:10 <MrReach> there is another set at the end that comments out the testing code
10:38:19 <MrReach> or there might be
10:38:47 <I440r> thats acceptable :)
10:38:58 <I440r> i would change them to \ on each line myself tho
10:39:11 <I440r> becayse it distinctly shows the block to be a comment
10:39:33 <MrReach> the problem ...
10:39:34 <I440r> ' @ alias sizeof  <-- this use of alias is valid
10:40:04 <I440r> its whe you do ' [bx+si] alias [si+bx]  etc that it becomes bad coding :)
10:40:07 <MrReach> yep, but the methods of building structures are likely to change in the near future
10:40:28 <I440r> i would be VERY supprised if they didnt
10:40:30 <MrReach> you'll note that not all the functionality in the docs are written yet
10:40:36 <I440r> you cant possibly get it right first time heh
10:41:03 <MrReach> this is the third time, and I've been NEEDSing this for for a couple of months now
10:41:16 <MrReach> I use it in practically everything
10:41:54 <MrReach> makes communication with the OS *SO* much easier
10:42:16 <MrReach> anyway ... the problem I'm facing ...
10:42:16 <I440r> we lost context here somewhere - er... you use what in almost everything ? heh
10:42:41 <MrReach> I include that structures package in nearly everthing I write
10:42:49 <I440r> ohhh :)
10:43:57 <MrReach> my internet connection is ASL 640kbs through a Cisco 675 router that statically allocates 209.181.43.184 through 209.181.43.190
10:43:58 <I440r> this would be VERY usefull when i start writing windowing code for terminals
10:44:37 <MrReach> the Cisco has a 10base-T connection to a dedicated eth card on my linux box
10:44:48 <I440r> k
10:45:05 <MrReach> the router, I think, is 11.0.0.1 and the linux box on that card is 11.0.0.2
10:45:16 <I440r> k
10:45:33 <I440r> is 11.0.0.x defined as a private network ?
10:45:43 <MrReach> the linux box has another eth card connected to an 8 port hub ... the address on that interface is 10.0.0.1
10:45:54 <MrReach> yes, I believe so, but if it isn't, I don't care
10:45:59 <I440r> hehe
10:46:21 <MrReach> the router translates everything to its own IP on the way out, as you can see by my /whois
10:46:48 <I440r> yes. NAT
10:46:57 <MrReach> good point, though, that would make *SOME* sites inaccessible
10:47:08 <MrReach> in any case ...
10:47:34 <MrReach> the router currently translates everything from outside to be destined for 11.0.0.2
10:48:01 <MrReach> so a web page access would end up going to 11.0.0.2:80
10:48:17 <MrReach> now, I like the tclhttpd web server, a lot
10:48:44 <MrReach> unfortunately, I don't want to run a server written in a scripting language as root
10:49:02 <I440r> rite
10:49:15 <MrReach> apache I might, but not tclhttpd
10:49:39 <MrReach> tcl does not have a function to change the owner of the current process
10:49:50 <I440r> at all ?
10:49:59 <MrReach> is there a command-line tool that will let me do so?
10:50:12 <MrReach> there's a command to get the current process ID
10:50:19 <MrReach> but not change the permissions
10:50:50 <I440r> change the process owner of a specified process ?
10:50:52 <I440r> not sure
10:50:56 <MrReach> once it's opened the socket for listening, I can exec "whatever tclhttpd" 
10:50:57 <I440r> might be a syscall to do that
10:51:03 <I440r> btw theres a loadlib syscall
10:51:23 <MrReach> no, given a process ID, I need a command line tool that will change who that process is running as
10:51:34 <MrReach> I don't have acess to syscalls
10:51:47 <I440r> yes. change ownership of the process
10:51:49 <I440r> there must be
10:51:51 <MrReach> hmmm ... not sure if I can get to glib or not
10:51:57 <I440r> there has to be a way because linux istself does it
10:52:07 <I440r> if a parent dies the child gets owned by init
10:52:15 <MrReach> how would I find that in the help files?
10:52:26 <I440r> you probably wouldnt
10:52:29 <I440r> man 2 sucks
10:52:30 <MrReach> what keyword to look for?
10:52:45 <MrReach> I need a command-line tool ... so in man 1
10:52:58 <MrReach> or perhaps man 8
10:53:11 <I440r> you could ask in #linpeople
10:53:14 <I440r> or #debian
10:53:22 <MrReach> thanks
10:53:23 <I440r> if the command line exists they would know about it
10:53:34 <I440r> if they dont know - i might be able to write it for you
10:53:37 <I440r> ill investigate
10:53:46 <MrReach> also, I could run it on port 8015, and have the router nat prt 80 to it
10:54:02 <MrReach> but that seems clumsy to me
10:55:08 <MrReach> also, if I relocate my server, which is likely as I move to Seattle, then I get to start over
10:57:48 <I440r> rm the internal addresses wont change will they ?
10:57:53 <I440r> just the external route
10:58:15 <MrReach> ok ...
10:58:27 <MrReach> the 10.0.0.1 interface will disappear entirely
10:58:34 <MrReach> (my local lan)
10:58:53 <MrReach> the 11.0.0.2 interface is likly to get a different address
10:59:11 <I440r> er why ?
10:59:23 <MrReach> (whatever is convenient for the site admin)
10:59:38 <I440r> oh
10:59:41 <MrReach> if I relocate it, it will be into someone else's network
11:00:42 <MrReach> there are prob lots of young people in seattle with a DSL connection and more than one comeputer who don't know how to set up a linux server and a LAN
11:01:12 <MrReach> if I can find one, I'll move the whole kit and kaboodle to their basement, including the hub
11:01:12 <I440r> :)
11:01:23 <I440r> you could make a living setting it up for them :)))
11:01:27 <onetom> I440r: hi
11:01:29 <MrReach> in which case, I might even be able to keep my current IP range
11:01:44 <MrReach> no, I make my living in Real Estate
11:02:04 <onetom> I440r: ithink, u could help us implementing our multiuser editor
11:02:17 <MrReach> BUT, I can set them up a lan if they will let me keep my server there at no charge
11:02:56 * MrReach pictures a welded steel box with a power cord going into it
11:03:23 <onetom> I440r: it could b a good testdrive 4 ur terminfo stuff
11:03:38 * MrReach chuckles and bites his tongue.
11:05:27 <I440r> onetom actually ive been thinking i will write an editor hehe
11:05:31 <I440r> just to prove it :P
11:05:32 <onetom> I440r: we need 2 handle cursor movement
11:05:48 <I440r> this only works in SPECIFIC terminals
11:05:54 <onetom> I440r: and change color attribs for phantom cursors
11:05:55 <I440r> linx, eterm, xterm and aterm
11:06:00 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
11:06:32 * MrReach looks quizically at I440r's sudden departure.
11:06:47 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
11:06:53 <MrReach> wb, futhin
11:06:59 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit)
11:07:03 <onetom> :) MrReach
11:07:09 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust65.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
11:07:12 <I440r> eep!
11:07:14 <I440r> wtf 
11:07:16 <I440r> heh
11:07:38 * MrReach looks quizically at I440r's sudden departure.
11:07:42 <onetom> I440r: so? what about it?
11:08:19 <onetom> could u make a phantom cursor move on the screen?
11:08:21 <MrReach> you know what? this isn't going to work
11:08:29 <onetom> :( what?
11:08:50 <MrReach> me relocating my current server
11:08:53 <I440r> every so often my mouse focal point moves one inch to the left of the pointer. i pointed at an icon and double clicked the ICON - and closed xchat:P
11:08:58 <I440r> oneton of corse i could
11:09:04 <I440r> THAT is easy!
11:09:23 <MrReach> what is easy?
11:09:35 <onetom> im not talkin about the hw cursor
11:09:46 <onetom> but a simulated 1
11:09:53 <MrReach> ah!
11:10:07 <I440r> yes i know
11:10:08 <MrReach> well, I440r probably wouldn't, but it's not that difficult
11:10:08 <onetom> u can simulate it by changing the bg color of a char
11:10:33 <I440r> or just writing an _ character where you want the cursor
11:11:00 <MrReach> it's sounds like they're setting up a cut/paste mode
11:11:01 <onetom> but that hides the char below the cur
11:11:14 <I440r> mrreach i will probably have to add that to my curses anyway 
11:11:17 <MrReach> and need to highlight a region to be cut
11:11:55 <MrReach> heh, in text mode
11:12:28 <I440r> this is all so easy tho
11:12:44 <MrReach> I440r: never mind my question ... I just realized that it's simply impossible to relocate this server
11:12:46 <I440r> ill be doing all this real soon!
11:12:53 <I440r> why is it impossible ?
11:12:56 <onetom> I440r: does isforth have case?
11:13:08 <I440r> no i discourage case statements
11:13:13 <I440r> but it can be easilly added
11:13:16 <MrReach> I'm 100% dependant on it's services in both my profession al personal life
11:13:28 <I440r> the problem with case statements is that they compile into if else statements
11:13:32 <I440r> i use exec:
11:13:37 <MrReach> it runs the laser printer, the color printer, the scanner, the CD burner
11:13:38 <onetom> what would u recomend instead?
11:13:43 <onetom> a series of ifs?
11:13:46 <I440r> all you have to do is make sure that your cases are 0 1 2 3 4 and
11:13:53 <I440r> exec: foo0 foo1 foo2 foo3 foo4
11:14:14 <MrReach> yes, exec: is I440r's fancy table lookup mechanism
11:14:15 <onetom> whats the def of exec?
11:14:25 <MrReach> it's just a lookup table
11:14:30 <I440r> not mine
11:14:35 <I440r> i ripped that out of fpc heh
11:14:40 <onetom> c
11:14:46 <I440r> exec: erm let me look heh
11:14:58 <MrReach> arg! it parses!
11:15:17 <onetom> then u can use that funky example
11:15:23 <onetom> at the end of 4th primer
11:15:28 <I440r> code exec: ( n1 --- )
11:15:33 <I440r>  shl ebx, 2
11:15:36 <I440r>  add esi, ebx
11:15:41 <I440r>  pop ebx
11:15:46 <I440r>  lodsd
11:15:52 <I440r>  mov esi, [ebp]
11:15:58 <I440r>  add ebp, byte 4
11:15:59 <onetom> lookup buttons ] b1 b2 b3 [
11:15:59 <I440r>  jmp eax
11:16:08 <onetom> I440r: eh, stop it
11:16:24 <onetom> I440r: if its in asm, its not easily understandable
11:16:30 <I440r> but it is 
11:16:33 <I440r> ill explain it
11:16:33 <MrReach> I got it
11:16:44 <MrReach> mult TOS by four
11:16:51 <onetom> : lookup create does> + @ execute ;
11:16:54 <MrReach> mov to temp place
11:16:54 <I440r> exec: basically adds 4 * n1 to IP. fetches the token at that address 
11:17:08 <MrReach> there yu go
11:17:29 <onetom> I440r: ok, thought so.
11:17:36 <I440r> exec: is an implied unnest from the word using it
11:17:38 <I440r> so
11:17:42 <I440r>  exec: xxx yyy zzz ;
11:17:52 <I440r> executs xxx if n1 is 0
11:17:57 <I440r> it never gets to yyy or zzz
11:18:31 <MrReach> I440r: because I'm 100% dependant on my server in both my personal and professional life; it runs the laser printer, the color printer, the scanner, the CD burner
11:18:38 <onetom> and how can i easily convert lkji letters to 0123 ?
11:19:02 <MrReach> what is lkji?
11:19:14 <I440r> they might be expected keypresses from a menu
11:19:18 <onetom> key ....  exec: left down right up
11:19:20 <I440r> different options
11:19:22 <I440r> ok
11:19:29 <MrReach> oh, you mean like "abc" to "012"???
11:19:41 <I440r> create options
11:19:43 <onetom> no, i mean jkli -> 03
11:19:47 <onetom> no, i mean jkli -> 0123
11:19:50 <I440r>  ," lkji"
11:20:19 <I440r> : ? option ( c1 ) options count do-some-sort-of-scan-here
11:20:25 <MrReach> why not make the CONSTANTs?
11:20:28 <onetom> hehe :))
11:20:31 <I440r> if exec: blah blah blah then ." bad keypress"
11:21:23 <onetom> with case, its simple:
11:21:28 <onetom> key case
11:21:36 <I440r> but inefficient :P
11:21:46 <onetom>   [char] j of left endof
11:21:53 <MrReach> I440r: if you think about it, you're really just moving all the IF...THEN stuff to another location .... why not leave it in CASE?
11:21:58 <onetom>   [char] k of down endof
11:22:00 <onetom> ...
11:22:02 <onetom> endcase
11:22:14 <I440r> mrreach case statements give one if else for each case
11:22:18 <I440r> i have one if else
11:22:22 <I440r> i never use cases in c either
11:22:33 <I440r> another way to do it is to have a table of
11:22:39 <I440r> otion, vector
11:22:43 <I440r>  option, vector
11:22:53 <I440r> scan throu the table till you find a matching option
11:22:54 <MrReach> no, there are IF...THENs in getting the dispatch ordinal ... quite a few of them
11:23:02 <I440r> and @ execute the vector
11:23:04 <MrReach> and possibly twisted logic
11:23:38 <onetom> but scanning is a more complex stuff than simple series of ifs
11:23:56 <MrReach> I'm not saying that one method is better, but this is the sort of thing CASE was written for
11:23:56 <I440r> not if you set it up right
11:24:02 <I440r> i might just write some words to do this
11:24:07 <I440r> a more efficient case...
11:24:20 <I440r> yes i know. but case is inefficient
11:24:26 <I440r> and i dont like inefficent methods
11:24:44 <I440r> i would rather add a SLIGHT ammount of complexity and be more efficient
11:25:03 <MrReach> ok, suppose the current command keys ar ^X ^S ^Y and ^Z ... what would your dispatch code look like?
11:25:28 <I440r> ^A is 0
11:25:31 <I440r> ^b is 1
11:25:44 <I440r> so you just have to do the translations
11:25:50 <I440r> it gets harder when you have to convert
11:26:00 <I440r> escape ] 65;x;b
11:26:10 <I440r> escape ] 65;p;44
11:26:14 <MrReach> tha's what I was saying, there's lot's of IF...THENs in either case
11:26:15 <I440r> etc bullshit 
11:26:42 <I440r> there doesnt have to be :)
11:26:53 <MrReach> show me how you would do it without them
11:27:14 <MrReach> using your handy-dandy dispatch function
11:27:14 <I440r> would take me a min to write it - but ill do so to show you
11:27:35 <onetom> i also still cant understand why would it b more efficient defining a scanner word...
11:27:39 <I440r> i cant stay online rite now tho (but im not copping out - ill write it :)
11:27:56 <onetom> it also does if many times implicitly
11:28:00 <MrReach> onetom: it is a tool
11:28:01 <I440r> onetom every if takes 8 bytes
11:28:06 <I440r> every else takes 16
11:28:09 <onetom> u just dont write it down many times
11:28:15 <I440r> the then takes 4
11:28:16 * MrReach sighs in exasperation.
11:28:35 <I440r> hehe
11:28:37 <I440r> neway i gtg 
11:28:38 <MrReach> and the machine has what? 128MBs of ram and another 128MBs of swap
11:28:39 <MrReach> ???
11:28:52 <MrReach> and this is code to handle keystrokes??
11:28:54 <onetom> if u have many cases, probably your code becomes smaller
11:28:55 <I440r> mrreach thats NO exscuse for inefficient code
11:29:00 <I440r> thats what gave rise to BLOAT
11:29:08 <onetom> but its still faster having ifs
11:29:12 <MrReach> just WRITE the code ... optimise later
11:29:16 <I440r> ill be writing all this sort of stuff for isforths escape sequence handler
11:29:29 <I440r> when you get mouse coordinate reports they come to you as escape sequences
11:29:35 <I440r> so do cursor movements
11:29:39 <I440r> and function keys etc
11:29:39 <MrReach> yeah, what a nuisance
11:29:52 <I440r> ya. heh
11:29:56 <I440r> neway i gtg
11:30:03 <MrReach> you actually end up parsing numbers from the input stream
11:30:10 <onetom> but ur scanner method is also inefficient - 4 speed
11:30:10 <MrReach> be well, I440r
11:30:18 <I440r> you too mrreach
11:30:24 <I440r> hurry up with my assembler :Phehhe
11:30:30 <I440r> might be back online later
11:30:31 <MrReach> I'm back to work on the Wiki
11:30:38 <I440r> :)
11:30:44 <onetom> MrReach: what wiki?
11:30:44 <MrReach> (in TCL)
11:30:50 <onetom> yumm :)
11:30:51 <MrReach> I'm writing a wiki
11:30:57 --- quit: I440r ("abort" grrrr got guns to clean"")
11:31:00 <onetom> w what content?
11:31:03 <MrReach> running un tclhttpd
11:31:24 <MrReach> several contents ... real estate, forth, perhaps spirituality
11:31:44 <MrReach> no, my interests are *NOT* ecliectic and scattered!
11:31:55 <onetom> ah, so writing a wiki sw, not just filling up 1
11:32:03 <MrReach> correct
11:32:08 <onetom> how could u define a wiki, anyway?
11:32:26 <onetom> and whats wrong w the existing zope wiki implementation?
11:32:28 <MrReach> I need both access protection and heirarchial page levels
11:32:52 <MrReach> wiki: a system of web pages editable by the readers
11:33:35 <MrReach> two things with zope ... I haven't been able to get it working, and its source is quite opaque to me
11:34:05 <MrReach> lessee, zope has heirarchial page levels?
11:34:24 <MrReach> I should check again, it develops quite rapidly
11:37:25 <onetom> zope just rox
11:37:38 <onetom> it has a great security system
11:37:44 <MrReach> are you currently running a zope server??
11:37:50 <onetom> and everything u could imagine
11:38:02 <onetom> u dont have to bother urself w its source
11:38:16 <MrReach> well, I'd have to learn a new language, but python isn't hard to learn
11:38:16 <onetom> u can manage the whole app through web interface
11:38:20 <MrReach> unlike perl
11:38:29 <onetom> eh, u dont have 2 learn python
11:38:41 <MrReach> I will to get the databases online
11:38:52 <onetom> u only have 2 learn some html tags called dtml
11:39:07 <onetom> what os r u using?
11:39:07 <MrReach> either that, or I have to learn a WHOLE bunch of web-variable thingies
11:39:33 <onetom> no, u dont have 2 learn that much
11:39:51 <MrReach> the machine I type on is a Win98 machine, the server is a Mandrake-Linux 8.1
11:40:09 <onetom> and zope refuses working on mandrake?
11:40:27 <MrReach> its been since last summer when I tried to install
11:40:48 <MrReach> tried to install on my Win98 machine, becuase the server was not as capable as it is now
11:42:15 <onetom> i tried it 2 yrs b4 and started 2 devel an phonelog analyzer in it
11:42:17 <MrReach> from the docs that I read, zope looks awesome, I'll agree
11:42:23 <onetom> and i liked it very much
11:42:42 <MrReach> are you currently running zope?
11:42:57 <onetom> probably...
11:43:00 <onetom> will check
11:43:03 <MrReach> ???
11:43:09 <MrReach> you don't know?
11:43:12 <onetom> but i only have 6K bandwidth
11:43:17 <onetom> cant remember, yes :)
11:43:29 <MrReach> heh, well, you're not using it much, then
11:43:36 <onetom> yeah, its running
11:43:49 <MrReach> might as well turn it off
11:43:52 <onetom> i ll give u the root acc on it, right?
11:44:01 <MrReach> erm ... if you wish
11:44:24 <MrReach> port 80?
11:44:45 <onetom> port 9673
11:44:47 <onetom> try it
11:45:52 <MrReach> yep, it came up
11:45:54 <onetom> u can fuck it up bravely
11:45:57 <onetom> i dont care
11:45:59 <MrReach> heh
11:46:08 <MrReach> like I said, you might as well shut it off
11:46:08 <onetom> there is nothing important in it, iguess
11:46:25 <MrReach> I'll not mess with existing stuff
11:46:34 <MrReach> (I hope)
11:46:37 <onetom> :))
11:46:53 <onetom> right, but dont b afraid to do anything w it
11:46:54 <MrReach> user/pass ?
11:47:05 <MrReach> oh, there it is
11:47:23 <onetom> anyway thats a former generation of zope
11:47:31 <onetom> this 1 is included in potato
11:47:31 <MrReach> what year?
11:47:35 <onetom> 1.5
11:47:39 <MrReach> ok
11:47:40 <onetom> cant remember
11:47:54 <onetom> but the 2.x series knows much more, tho
11:48:08 <onetom> its interface looks similar
11:48:20 <onetom> and the security system is also the same
11:48:22 <MrReach> brb
11:48:33 <onetom> k
11:55:21 <MrReach> back
11:58:52 <MrReach> which database server does zope prefer???
12:05:28 <MrReach> what is the hardware configuration of the machine that I'm accessing?
12:13:50 <MrReach> onetom: hello?
12:13:53 <onetom> sorry
12:14:12 <onetom> probably postgresql is the most prefered
12:14:26 <onetom> ROOT@ex:~> cat /proc/cpuinfo 
12:14:32 <onetom> model name      : Celeron (Mendocino)
12:14:33 <onetom> stepping        : 5
12:14:33 <onetom> cpu MHz         : 501.145
12:14:33 <onetom> cache size      : 128 KB
12:14:36 <onetom> bogomips        : 999.42
12:14:51 <onetom> ADSL 384/64kbps
12:15:23 <onetom> and im downloading videos @ the moment
12:15:35 <MrReach> ok, thanks
12:15:51 <onetom> but i can defer downloading
12:15:53 <MrReach> 128 MB ram?
12:15:58 <MrReach> no, don't worry
12:16:07 <MrReach> I'm back to zope.org now
12:16:09 <onetom> ssh in
12:16:24 <onetom> as guest:x and just explore it urself
12:16:30 <MrReach> ok
12:16:56 <onetom> and dont mess up the homes of the others
12:17:02 <MrReach> heh
12:17:04 <onetom> ;)
12:17:12 <MrReach> pointless
12:17:28 <MrReach> although it's sometimes interesting to see what type of porn they like    @:^>
12:17:40 <onetom> :))
12:17:44 <onetom> i dont have any
12:18:02 <onetom> not on the server @ least
12:18:13 * MrReach laughs.
12:18:16 <onetom> only on cds ;)
12:18:40 <onetom> tho, i have lotsa mp3 @ /home/tom/mp3/common
12:19:09 <MrReach> heh, that'll choke your connection if I try to get some
12:19:10 <onetom> im downloading martial art videos, anyway
12:19:34 <onetom> but they r miserable :-/
12:19:44 <MrReach> oh? why?
12:20:05 <onetom> martial arts r not a good material 2 make a show from
12:20:18 <onetom> they r just kicking a lot
12:20:22 <MrReach> oh!
12:20:30 <MrReach> I see what you're saying
12:20:35 <onetom> it seems nonsense
12:20:43 <MrReach> thought you meant the mp3s were miserable
12:20:55 <onetom> its not acrobatics
12:21:05 <onetom> not real fighting
12:21:11 <onetom> just a stupid show
12:21:15 <MrReach> heh
12:24:46 <MrReach> I've been experiencing an odd error in Linux, perhaps you can enlighten me
12:25:04 <MrReach> when I first boot, dmesg works as advertised
12:25:32 <MrReach> however, it later appears to be filled with logged packet errors from the firewall
12:25:34 <onetom> advertised loll
12:25:45 <MrReach> can you explain how to prevent this?
12:25:54 <onetom> hm, dont know
12:26:07 <MrReach> np, then
12:26:13 <onetom> probably
12:26:15 <MrReach> just odd, and kinda irritating
12:26:29 <onetom> u have a logging flag turned on
12:26:47 <onetom> in ur filtering rules
12:26:49 <onetom> like:
12:26:58 <onetom> DENY       all  ----l-  anywhere             anywhere              n/a
12:27:26 <onetom> im not sure, but its pretty suspicious
12:27:47 <MrReach> yes, the filters log errors via either syslog or klog
12:27:56 <MrReach> but how does that end up in dmesg?
12:28:19 <MrReach> does dmesg just tail one of the log files?
12:28:46 <MrReach> this machine is constantly hacked
12:28:56 <onetom> no
12:28:56 <MrReach> I don't worry about it anymore
12:29:18 <onetom> dmesg is a user-space logger independant
12:29:26 <onetom> ring buffer for kernel msgs
12:29:39 <MrReach> oh! ok, that explains, then
12:29:48 <onetom> so the kernel could log things during bootup, when
12:30:12 <onetom> theres no user space processes running
12:30:47 <onetom> actually dmesg is the displayer of this ringbuffer
12:31:19 <onetom> what sw sets up the firewall 4 u?
12:31:32 <onetom> ah, probably u dont know, if u have a mandrake...
12:31:42 <MrReach> hmmm ... trying to remember
12:31:48 <MrReach> I think I set it up manually
12:32:10 <onetom> dont think so...
12:32:47 <onetom> if u would set it up manually i probably wouldnt have added the -l switch to the ipchains command line
12:33:10 <onetom> do an rgrep -- -l /etc | less -Si
12:33:21 <MrReach> I edited firewall.rc with joe
12:33:32 <onetom> then say /ipcha in less
12:34:09 <onetom> aha, but there must b some other - default - rule setup in mandrake, iguess
12:34:29 <onetom> but make a cruise 4 it
12:34:47 <MrReach> ooops, 2.4.x kernel
12:35:47 <MrReach> so it's iptables
12:37:23 <onetom> yummm :)
12:37:51 <onetom> sorry, but ive never ever tinkered w iptables yet
12:37:56 <MrReach> it logs broken packets, which is appropriate
12:38:15 <onetom> no even w ipchairs and other ipfurniture like that :)
12:40:59 <MrReach> it's shouldn't log?
12:41:28 <MrReach> ok, there's LOTS of log entries for 10.0.1.255
12:41:42 <MrReach> which is the segment between the router and the server
12:41:57 <MrReach> coming FROM the router
12:43:14 <MrReach> hmmm ... will have to reread the networking manuals
12:43:24 <MrReach> it's not a big deal, one way or the other
12:46:18 <MrReach> Zope looks interesting ... can't seem to find any RPMs for 2.4 kernel, though
12:47:09 <onetom> RPMs for 2.4 kernel ???
12:47:38 <MrReach> zope site says "for linux2"
12:47:39 <onetom> what the heck should it do w the kernel?
12:47:58 <MrReach> not sure ... looking through readmes now
12:48:07 <onetom> yes, probably that refers to glibc2.x
12:49:03 <onetom> but its easy 2 install it from source
12:49:26 <onetom> probably u dont even have 2 compile anything, coz its been written in python
12:50:05 <onetom> (alright, probably it compiles the py's into pyo's
12:50:07 <onetom> )
12:50:19 <MrReach> heh
12:53:06 <MrReach> do you know the difference between PCGI and FastCGI ???
13:00:30 <onetom> <thinking><thinking> cant remember
13:00:37 <MrReach> ok
13:00:39 <onetom> but the official cgi doc on the net
13:00:45 <onetom> explains it quite well
13:01:17 <MrReach> it would only take 10-15 mins to find the doc and determine the diff ... but it's not really important to me
13:01:31 <MrReach> thought you might know offhand
13:01:32 <onetom> probably i can find it faster
13:01:43 <MrReach> well, I can FIND it
13:01:50 <onetom> u should know, i hate web programming :)
13:02:06 <MrReach> but it takes a few mins reading to determine the DIFFERENCE between the two protocols
13:02:34 <MrReach> so do I, actually
13:02:42 <onetom> http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Guides/ZAG-HTML/ZAG.3.3.html
13:02:47 <MrReach> that's why I'm getting into real estate
13:03:01 <onetom> the url is funny ;)
13:03:09 <onetom> its a short explanation anyway
13:05:05 <MrReach> thank you
13:15:02 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
14:27:09 --- join: SoapSleep (flop@210-54-195-21.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
14:30:24 --- nick: SoapSleep -> Soap-
14:43:31 --- quit: rob_ert ("New kernel, brb.")
14:44:14 <MrGone> cool! zope is now running on my Linux server
14:46:43 * MrGone prepares to sped the rest of the day reading documentation
14:53:01 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth
14:55:24 <onetom> MrGone: congrat :)
14:55:48 <onetom> MrGone: there is a zope book on zope.org
14:55:55 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
14:56:02 <MrReach> I'm reading that now
14:56:04 <onetom> MrGone: its the most comprehesive doc 4 zope
14:56:11 <MrReach> (from the server I just set up)
14:56:15 <onetom> ok, thats the way 2 go
14:56:21 <onetom> :)
14:56:48 <MrReach> I notice that ZWiki has had no development since Nov of last year
14:56:56 <onetom> and what do u think
14:56:56 <MrReach> interesting
14:57:05 <MrReach> snazzy system
14:57:05 <onetom> coz it worx :)
14:57:09 <MrReach> doesn't fork into the background properly, though
14:57:12 <onetom> ?
14:57:23 <onetom> what forks not 2 bg?
14:57:36 <MrReach> the Zope server
14:58:12 <MrReach> occording to the docs, doing ./start as root will cause it to change its own user to "nobody", and then run in the bg
14:58:25 <MrReach> it didn't do that
14:58:36 * MrReach shrugs.
15:01:40 <onetom> aha... me cant help. i always used prepackaged zopes 4 debian
15:02:07 <onetom> but u can explore it on my system, if it will b really important 4 u
15:02:32 <MrReach> well, it's something that needs fixing if I'm going to use it regularly from init scripts
15:02:53 <MrReach> it's probably just a command line switch ... ./start -bg
15:02:57 <MrReach> or something
15:03:09 <onetom> but its not really important while u dont decide weather u use it or not
15:03:18 <MrReach> yep
15:23:40 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1")
15:24:00 <MrReach> heh, Zope supports SOAP
15:32:22 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
15:32:32 <rob_ert> Hello :)
15:32:45 <futhin> hello
15:32:50 <MrReach> hihi, futhin
15:32:56 <futhin> i was just reading the log
15:33:14 <futhin> and i wanted to say that case is inefficient :P
15:33:33 <futhin> a hash table is more efficient, i used to think there were implicit ifs, but there isn't..
15:33:35 <MrReach> it's a keyboard handler ... who cares?
15:33:44 <futhin> hash table = lookup table = exec:   ..
15:33:51 <MrReach> ok, that fine, but ...
15:34:07 <MrReach> how do you get from keystroke to hash table ordinal???
15:34:42 <onetom> MrReach: we should tell him hes supported by zope
15:34:46 <onetom> hi futhin 
15:34:57 <futhin> no, onetom asked i440r about isforth having case, and i440r brought up exec:
15:35:06 <MrReach> or is there a hash table entry for every possible keystroke??
15:35:31 <onetom> futhin: the implicit if is in the scanning word
15:35:32 <MrReach> exec: is a shorthand method for creating execution tables
15:35:39 <onetom> inside until
15:35:41 <futhin> i'm not talking about the keystroke handler
15:35:43 <MrReach> which are a specialization of tables in general
15:36:15 <MrReach> but that is what onetom is writing, unless I'm mistaken
15:36:48 <futhin> 11:12:56 <onetom> I440r: does isforth have case?
15:36:48 <futhin> 11:13:08 <I440r> no i discourage case statements
15:36:57 <futhin> i didn't think they were talking about the keystroke handler
15:37:03 <onetom> and hash table =/= lookup table
15:37:04 <futhin> when they were talking about case & exec:
15:37:13 <MrReach> that's true, onetom
15:37:24 <onetom> hash is a specially ordered table
15:37:58 <MrReach> ok, IMO, exec: (and lookup tables in general) are an excellent solution for compact (read 'sequential') data
15:38:05 <futhin> i'm generalizing..  what i should've said is, lookup table & hash tables & whatever tables fall under the datastructure category
15:38:16 <futhin> and data structure is much much better than logic (if then else)
15:38:32 <MrReach> but if the data is SPARSE .... lookups don't fare so well anymore
15:38:44 <onetom> but we cant replace logic w table here
15:39:02 <onetom> coz we have to convert keycodes to indexes first
15:39:13 <futhin> i wasn't talking about the keystroke handler, but i realize you guys were
15:39:18 <MrReach> onetom: what, exactly, are you writing that requires the case statement?
15:39:28 <futhin> i wasn't talking about the keystroke handler, but i realize you guys were
15:39:31 <onetom> let my show:
15:39:46 <onetom> shut up 4 some sex plz
15:39:51 <onetom> ;)
15:39:56 <onetom> key case
15:39:56 <futhin> showertime!
15:40:01 <onetom> grrrrr
15:40:02 <MrReach> futhin: I agree, if you can avoid CASE by using a lookup table, that is probably the better solution
15:40:03 <onetom>  ;)
15:40:15 <onetom> key case
15:40:30 <onetom>   [char] j of left endof
15:40:38 <onetom>   [char] k of down endof
15:40:45 <onetom>   [char] l of right endof
15:40:51 <onetom>   [char] i of up endof
15:40:54 <onetom> endcase
15:41:01 <onetom> thats it
15:41:26 <onetom> a non-vi compatible cursor movment routine ;)
15:41:49 <MrReach> erm, you *COULD* use a lookup table for those, since they are all sequential
15:42:03 <futhin> does that case statement create IF THEN   or IF ELSE THEN   ??
15:42:05 <onetom> tell me the code
15:42:33 <MrReach> futhin: CASE uses the 0bra or ?bra primitive internally
15:42:43 <onetom> table key jkli->0123 cells + execute
15:43:00 <onetom> @ execute
15:43:17 <futhin> does [char] read ahead ??
15:43:25 <onetom> so tell me more about the jkli->0123 word
15:43:39 <MrReach> : foo ( key -- ) [char] i - CELLS TABLE + @ EXECUTE ;
15:43:41 <onetom> futhin: yes, [char] parses
15:43:45 <futhin> ok
15:43:56 <onetom> and, sure, i know parsing is evil also :))
15:44:01 <futhin> why are you using jkli for arrow keys?  and not the actual arrow keys? :P
15:44:21 <MrReach> probably CTRL-ijkl
15:44:23 <onetom> coz they give back strings, iguess
15:44:38 <onetom> ESC [ <horsedick>
15:44:45 <MrReach> heh
15:44:55 <MrReach> onetom: did you follow my def for foo?
15:45:18 <onetom> sure
15:45:25 <MrReach> (no bounds checking, ooops)
15:45:48 <onetom> but whats that i ?
15:46:01 <futhin> : whatever
15:46:01 <futhin> key
15:46:01 <futhin>   [char] j if left exit then
15:46:01 <futhin>   [char] k if down exit then
15:46:01 <futhin>   [char] l if right exit then
15:46:01 <futhin>   [char] i if up exit then ." fool! use jkli!" ;
15:46:15 <futhin> i prolly messed it up
15:46:17 <onetom> aaaaah :)))
15:46:18 <futhin> but you get the idea :P
15:46:23 <MrReach> i-j-k-l are all sequential ... subtracting 'i' leaves 0-1-2-3
15:46:44 <onetom> sure sure
15:46:52 <onetom> but its just a coincidence
15:46:58 <onetom> asdw
15:47:09 <futhin> lies :P
15:47:10 <MrReach> CELLS scales by two bytes or four, depending on your architecture
15:47:12 <onetom> qwe2
15:47:14 <futhin> coincidence? lies :P
15:47:33 <MrReach> onetom: agreed, the particular situation allowed it to work
15:47:33 <futhin> esdf is sequential ;)
15:47:53 <onetom> lolll
15:47:59 <futhin> i'd use arrow keys if i could
15:48:01 <MrReach> up arrow, etc, would mangle that method
15:48:13 <onetom> futhin: r u hunting such seq keygroups?
15:48:18 <futhin> never really liked games that required me to use other keys besides arrow keys
15:48:24 <onetom> futhin: just like me
15:49:36 <MrReach> incidently, if I were writing a key handler, I'd reserve 0-127 for normal and control keys, and translate the escape code sequences to ints >127
15:49:39 <onetom> anyway, we should try to do some interface for our editor
15:49:50 <onetom> so we could start experimenting w it
15:50:52 <onetom> futhin: what r u doing now?
15:52:40 <futhin> reading the log with my towel in hand, ready for showertime!
15:53:22 <onetom> good
15:53:43 <onetom> and what would u do after the shower?
15:53:46 <MrReach> heh, took my shower in the middle of stalling zope
15:54:08 <futhin> try to work on the postscript thingie
15:54:51 <onetom> ah, uve already told that u wont have 2 much time 4 other things
15:55:04 <onetom> can i help u in the ps thing?
15:55:14 <futhin> dunno
15:55:16 <futhin> can you? :P
15:55:36 <onetom> probably
15:55:37 <futhin> do you know much postscript?
15:55:46 <onetom> not yet ;)
15:56:03 <MrReach> who does? don't memorize postscript, use the manual
15:56:04 <onetom> but i learn damn fast :P
15:56:17 <futhin> i don't know how i could break up the task
15:56:27 <futhin> actually :P
15:56:36 <onetom> so u dont have any challanging problems 2 solve?
15:56:39 <MrReach> what is the design objective???
15:56:45 <onetom> u r just drawing?
15:57:30 <onetom> i should also do my job, but i ll b ready in near future
15:57:36 <futhin> there's two parts really.   a program to take input and put it into the bottom of a copy of the postscript file  with the right commands
15:57:41 <futhin> and then there's the postscript file
15:57:43 <MrReach> onetom: what is your job?
15:57:45 <futhin> which has most of the code
15:57:48 <futhin> for drawing the stuff
15:57:53 <onetom> so id love to continue developing the multiuser editor
15:58:18 <onetom> MrReach: my job is feed the pigs and dont touch the buttons ;)
15:58:33 <MrReach> futhin: so you have a drawing program that outputs postscript???
15:58:42 * MrReach laughs.
15:58:43 <futhin> mrreach: no
15:58:58 <futhin> mrreach:  all the drawing stuff is in the postscript file
15:59:09 <MrReach> in the header?
15:59:19 <futhin> header?
15:59:27 <MrReach> where does the data come from that is different with each print job?
15:59:37 <onetom> futhin: probably its really easier 2 generate the ps file w forth
15:59:44 <MrReach> are you parsing postscript or producing it?
15:59:52 <onetom> if u dont know ps , just like we ;)
16:00:10 <onetom> MrReach: he produces
16:00:25 <onetom> futhin: do u know the forth cgi example?
16:00:29 <futhin> mrreach: ppl will input numbers, these numbers will get put into the bottom of the postscript file, and then call the postscript code..
16:00:53 <onetom> : <HTML> cr ." <HTML>" ;
16:00:55 <MrReach> ok, how do you receive the numbers?
16:00:56 <onetom> : </HTML> cr ." </HTML>" ;
16:01:07 <onetom> : <BODY> cr ." <BODY>" ;
16:01:11 <onetom> : </BODY> cr ." <6BODY>" ;
16:01:12 <onetom> ...
16:01:30 <onetom> then u can parse a bare html w forth
16:01:43 <MrReach> heh, spec calls for : </BODY> cr lf ." <6BODY>" ;
16:01:53 <onetom> and can "embedd" 4th code between the "tags"
16:02:13 <onetom> like:
16:02:19 <futhin> basically, a copy of the stock postscript file will be made, and the input will get put into the bottom    for example:    the person types 72.25 and 24.25 at the input program, and then "72.25 inches 24.24 inches box "  gets put into the bottom of the postscript file
16:02:52 <onetom> <HTML> <BODY> ." 4th CGI example: " 3 5 + . </BODY> </HTML>
16:02:54 <futhin> i'm doing all the drawing stuff in the postscript file i think..
16:03:04 <MrReach> and your prog is the thing putting it there?
16:03:32 <futhin> naw, i'll already have the postscript file, i'll just make a copy, rename it, and append the input with postscript code at the bottom
16:03:52 <futhin> i think it's easiest this way..  
16:03:54 <MrReach> ok, that's what I asked ... where does the input come from?
16:04:01 <futhin> the input program
16:04:13 <MrReach> you're obviously writing a print filter of some kind
16:04:15 <futhin> i'll just code up a forth program or maybe some other language
16:04:25 <futhin> and the person will be asked questions
16:04:29 * MrReach gives up.
16:04:31 <futhin> and will type in the numbers
16:04:37 <MrReach> ah! 
16:04:42 <futhin> heh
16:04:44 <MrReach> ok, now we're getting somewhere
16:04:50 <onetom> what about tcl/tk?
16:05:05 <MrReach> this input is done in forth, from the keyboard?
16:05:13 <futhin> onetom: perhaps?   a nice gui for the input program? 
16:05:18 <onetom> aha
16:05:36 <onetom> its EZ to wrap up 1
16:05:40 <onetom> in tcltk
16:05:55 <onetom> it has a very nice filehandling interface
16:06:01 <onetom> just like the 1 in gforth
16:06:07 <MrReach> heh, if you do it in tcl/tk, the simple text input program will keep growing until it a full-fleged CAD program
16:06:22 <onetom> and the interface design is also a mere copy of the examples
16:06:32 <futhin> the input program:  lets ppl type in measurement numbers & name of file to save out postscript file as.   and then appends the input into a copy of the postscript file.  
16:06:34 <onetom> in any tcltk book
16:06:37 <onetom> from
16:06:50 <MrReach> ok
16:07:04 <onetom> ok
16:07:10 <MrReach> well, I'm starting to see how to break your task into parts
16:07:19 <onetom> download tcltk for windows!
16:07:27 <futhin> all the drawing code is inside the postscript file..   
16:07:43 <MrReach> *CAN* be inside the postscript file
16:07:48 <onetom> i will make u a bare example
16:08:11 <onetom> what else should u do now?
16:08:19 <MrReach> tcl doesn't handle keyboard input so well
16:08:21 <onetom> what is not finished yet?
16:08:30 <onetom> MrReach: think so?
16:08:37 <MrReach> I've had probs with it
16:08:49 <onetom> MrReach: like what?
16:08:54 <MrReach> although it might be just because I'm lame
16:09:17 <MrReach> getting a single keystroke from stdin in TCL was very problematic
16:09:40 <MrReach> can that be overcome by using fconfig to set buffering to "none"?
16:10:14 <MrReach> futhin: I'm starting to see how to break your task into parts
16:10:15 <onetom> hmmm, but now we wont read anything from stdin
16:10:48 <MrReach> beg parden?
16:11:08 <onetom> futhin: would u reveal 2 us the current state of yr prj?
16:11:11 <futhin> i'm going to upload the file
16:11:21 <MrReach> I also had a *HELL* of a time getting tcl to set the line discipline to my modems
16:11:27 <onetom> futhin: and could u show us some specification?
16:11:58 <onetom> MrReach: serial comm & modem handling is always a pain in the ass
16:12:09 <onetom> MrReach: in any kind of envs or langs
16:12:38 <MrReach> heh, worked pretty good with quickbasic on dos with a third party driver
16:12:50 <onetom> yay :)
16:12:55 <MrReach> ages ago
16:13:09 <futhin> onto onetom's comp...   /home/guest/main.ps
16:13:14 <futhin> uploaded it now
16:13:23 <futhin> don't really have any specifications in electronic form
16:13:24 <onetom> it also worked pretty well from pascal w asm inside it :))
16:13:32 <futhin> i have papers
16:13:40 <futhin> but not in electronic form
16:13:46 <MrReach> got a scanner?
16:13:47 <onetom> then type them in!
16:13:50 <futhin> heh
16:14:04 <futhin> it's mostly pictures
16:14:06 <MrReach> hell, type them here, and log it
16:14:12 <onetom> @ least let us know what r the name of the input data fields
16:15:05 <MrReach> heh ....
16:15:07 <MrReach> You will learn how to create and
16:15:07 <MrReach> manage Zope resources by building a web site devoted to tracking Elvis sightings.
16:15:15 <onetom> <daaaang> that works, thats nice
16:16:10 <onetom> futhin: show us the input spec!
16:16:12 <onetom> brb
16:16:15 <futhin> color:     length:     width:      name of file:     track type:     
16:16:23 <futhin> that's the most basic
16:16:26 <futhin> there's some more input
16:16:38 <futhin> like a box for typing out notes
16:16:42 <futhin> that get put into the postscript file
16:17:03 <futhin> that get printed out with the schematics
16:17:19 <MrReach> schematics?
16:17:25 <futhin> have both of you checked /home/guest/main.ps
16:18:24 <MrReach> I'm not allowed to log in
16:18:33 <MrReach> and don't remember how to do passwords in URLs
16:18:49 <futhin> heh
16:21:10 <futhin> ugh
16:22:07 <futhin> mrreach: see the pm?
16:22:12 <onetom> futhin: hey!!!!!
16:22:19 <onetom> MrReach: hey!!!!!!
16:22:22 <futhin> heh ?
16:22:41 <onetom> ssh try:x@hermantom.homeip.net ;)
16:22:49 <onetom> just for fun :)
16:23:11 <futhin> lol
16:23:48 <onetom> ;)
16:24:21 <futhin> onetom: check main.ps  /home/guest/main.ps
16:24:33 <onetom> u can say s" bash" system if u wanna get a shell
16:24:40 <futhin> ah :)
16:25:08 <onetom> nothing has changed in main.ps
16:25:15 <futhin> it's leet to type bye to exit
16:25:34 <futhin> onetom:  i know
16:26:00 <futhin> see how i'm doing all the drawing code inside it though?
16:26:06 <futhin> it hasn't progressed very far
16:26:17 <onetom> probably our mued (short 4 MultiUser EDitor) will work like this
16:26:20 <futhin> but i have some arrow code
16:26:39 <futhin> onetom:  i was thinking of calling it coedit
16:26:47 <futhin> :)
16:27:00 <futhin> doesn't matter
16:27:08 <onetom> if u say screen -x as guest
16:27:23 <onetom> u can always c what am i doing publicly
16:28:44 <onetom> k, lets call it coedit
16:29:30 <futhin> doesn't matter
16:29:36 <futhin> i was putting remote-control.fs into a directory
16:29:44 <futhin> so i spent like 1 minute coming up with a name
16:30:43 <futhin> anyways
16:30:44 <futhin> anyways
16:30:46 <futhin> onetom
16:30:51 <MrReach> there is no main.ps
16:31:08 <futhin> ftp://guest:x@hermantom.homeip.net/
16:31:18 <MrReach> which subdir?
16:31:34 <onetom> MrReach: /home/guest/main.ps
16:31:40 <MrReach> ah! thanks!
16:31:43 <onetom> ooor
16:31:58 <MrReach> i was looking in /pub/guest
16:32:04 <futhin> ah :)
16:32:13 <onetom> http://guest:x@hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/main.ps
16:32:21 <futhin> ahhh
16:32:28 <futhin> http or ftp ?
16:32:34 <onetom> if we work inside the /home/guest/www dir
16:32:41 <MrReach> got it
16:32:43 <MrReach> thanks
16:33:24 <onetom> and we should, coz this way everybody can access our stuff under the guest acc
16:33:38 <futhin> http://guest:x@hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/main.ps   doesn't work
16:33:46 <onetom> sure
16:33:59 <onetom> thats what im talkin about
16:34:14 <futhin> heh
16:34:15 <futhin> ok
16:34:19 <onetom> we should store all the stuff under /home/guest/www
16:34:32 <MrReach> ok, that's what I thought I would see
16:34:49 <MrReach> a couple of defs to draw a line and a box
16:35:16 <onetom> yup, thats right
16:35:22 --- join: I440r (~mark4@11Cust253.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
16:35:28 <rob_ert> Hi :=)
16:35:31 <futhin> you see that i'm putting all the drawing code into the postscript file
16:35:44 <I440r> heh
16:35:48 <MrReach> futhin: those defs are so short that there is no reason not to output them from the forth program
16:36:12 <futhin> sure i can, but why not just append the input into a copy ? :P
16:36:31 <MrReach> portability is why
16:36:42 <I440r> heh
16:36:44 <futhin> portability?!?
16:37:02 <MrReach> otherwise, it's another file to pack around, and you have to know where the input file is (may not be in current directory)
16:37:22 <futhin> an input program, and a postscript file..   input gets appended to postscript file.  it's simple
16:37:33 <futhin> i want it to be somewhat "maintainable"
16:37:45 <MrReach> ok, I would suggest making it even simpler by not using the input file
16:37:59 <futhin> by not using the input program you mean?
16:38:04 <I440r> oh i got a qeustion mrreach
16:38:28 <MrReach> encode the postfix header into the forth program itself
16:38:32 <MrReach> fire away
16:38:37 <I440r> im going to be doing this windowing system in forth. each window will have a "window" word so you can write into it etc (like a handle) and a buffer
16:38:53 <MrReach> ok, is this terminal or xwin???
16:38:55 <I440r> should the buffer contents be part of the turnkeyd executable ?
16:38:58 <I440r> terminal
16:39:12 <MrReach> huh? why would it be?
16:39:34 <I440r> this is what i was thinking of
16:39:48 <I440r> every time you create a new window you will specify the width and height
16:40:02 <MrReach> that really doesn't make sense, because the terminal will be different sizes on different invocations
16:40:17 <I440r> terminal will. window wont
16:40:30 <MrReach> oh, good point
16:41:07 <I440r> every time you allocate a window i was going to put the buffer at the top of list space and move the "top of list space" pointer down
16:41:10 <MrReach> unless there was compelling reason not to, I would allocate the buffer mem at run time
16:41:33 <onetom> I440r: what docs do u have about terminal esc seqs?
16:41:40 <MrReach> ok, are you talking about Z-order ?
16:41:51 <I440r> no
16:42:02 <I440r> this is nothing to do with where they are on screen heh
16:42:04 <I440r> ok
16:42:11 <I440r> i createn a window
16:42:13 <MrReach> I440r is a *REAL* coder, therefore I assume he learns his escape sequences from /etc/termcap
16:42:16 <I440r> i then fsace
16:42:23 <I440r> fsave
16:42:36 <MrReach> ok
16:42:37 <I440r> mrreach that and the manuals for the different terminals :)
16:42:39 <I440r> \now
16:42:43 <I440r> when i run again
16:42:57 <I440r> the first thing isforth does is relocate all headers up into head space
16:43:09 <I440r> it will now have to re-allocate all defined window buffers 
16:43:18 <I440r> so ill need to have a "window" chain
16:43:45 <I440r> and go thru the chain allocating
16:43:56 <MrReach> ok, but I don't see how having to relocate the headers has anything to do with saving a set of windows
16:44:09 <MrReach> that seems reasonable
16:44:21 <I440r> yes it does
16:44:26 <I440r> heres the sequence of events
16:44:31 <I440r> run isforth
16:44:37 <I440r> it sys breaks out to 1 meg
16:44:52 <I440r> it then takes the end of LIST space to top of memory distance
16:45:01 <I440r> divides that in 2 and calls that the start of head space
16:45:03 <I440r> end of list space
16:45:10 <MrReach> ok
16:45:11 <I440r> it then relocates all headers out to this location
16:45:13 <I440r> so.
16:45:28 <I440r> the user might make it allocate MORe or less on load
16:45:38 <I440r> it will be a user settable thing
16:45:55 <MrReach> ok, how does this affect allocation of window buffers?
16:46:44 <MrReach> I don't see how it would, regardless of whether they were in the dict or in allocated mem
16:47:27 <I440r> because windows will be allocated at the top of LIST space
16:47:44 <I440r> which is at address xyzzy now but at address abcde after reload :P
16:48:19 <MrReach> CREATE winbuf  winbuf-size ALLOT
16:48:28 <I440r> er thats what i was asking
16:48:30 <I440r> BUT
16:48:42 <I440r> that means that the window coontents are now a part of the executable
16:49:05 <I440r> i.e. if you define a few 80x25 screen buffers you have a 28945982659823642 gig executable :P
16:49:05 <I440r> heh
16:49:08 <MrReach> OR if you do it at runtime, in whatever init word ... winbuf-size ALLOCATE THROW to winbuf
16:49:36 <MrReach> winbuf then being a global VALUE
16:49:53 <MrReach> or variable, I don't care ...
16:50:06 <MrReach> ... in whatever init word ... winbuf-size ALLOCATE THROW winbuf !
16:50:45 <MrReach> I don't understand where either of those methods would cause a prob with the executable
16:51:01 <MrReach> although, putting them in the dict would tend to make the exe larger, as you said
16:51:19 <MrReach> still no biggie, IMO, but you know how wasteful I am
16:51:27 <I440r> large executables is something im doing my damndest to prevent heh
16:51:46 <I440r> ill waste space too if its appropriate
16:52:06 <I440r> ill use whichever resource needs to be used to give the best solution
16:52:34 <MrReach> I would allocate whatever buffers I needed in the init word, and then fill then with whatever default text they needed
16:52:42 <I440r> default
16:52:48 <I440r> default is the init word
16:52:56 <MrReach> futhin: your task ...
16:53:08 <MrReach> 1. rudimentary keystroke handler
16:53:19 <futhin> speed should be more important than size, but understandability should be more important than them all :P  Oh, and simplicity is the most importantest! :)
16:53:21 <MrReach> 2. data accumulation/buffering
16:53:52 <MrReach> 3. data conversion to that needed by output file (if any)
16:54:00 <MrReach> 4. data output
16:54:11 <MrReach> [end]
16:54:40 <futhin> yes, well, i was working on 3 :P
16:55:11 <MrReach> I440r: here's the tradeoff, you either store the buffer in the exe, or you spend extra clocks allocating them and filling them with initial data
16:55:22 <MrReach> I'd do the latter, personally
16:55:35 <I440r> the extra clocks are a one time shot
16:55:39 <I440r> at boot up
16:55:43 <MrReach> yep, at the biginning
16:55:55 <I440r> this is the way i was leaning
16:55:59 <I440r> but wanted your input
16:56:00 <I440r> hrm
16:56:05 <I440r> how about maing it an option ?
16:56:12 <I440r> or is that featuritis heh
16:56:34 <futhin> probably unnecessary
16:56:41 <futhin> if it isn't an important feature
16:56:43 <MrReach> you will have to store the default text somewhere, probably in c" strings ... but it should still be substantially smaller than the whole buffer
16:56:45 <futhin> don't give them a choice
16:57:17 <I440r> some windows have very small default text
16:57:28 <I440r> like an editor only has some status info in it
16:57:29 <MrReach> if the user doesn't know what the option is ... if it doesn't affect them directly ... don't give them the option
16:57:57 <MrReach> yep
16:58:26 <I440r> but help files have alot
16:58:33 <I440r> but then. they can be in "help files" heh
16:58:38 <MrReach> yeah
16:58:55 <MrReach> you wouldn't build preallotted buffers for entire help files
16:59:09 <I440r> no
16:59:31 <I440r> but any windows created at fsave time will exist at the next load time
16:59:38 <MrReach> in fact, you might even want to put the help files on disk so that people can expand them
16:59:41 <I440r> but i can create 29858296492 windows now and just quit and they aqre gone heh
16:59:55 <MrReach> right
17:00:19 <MrReach> and DON'T forget to reinit them at load time
17:01:11 <I440r> ya
17:01:30 <I440r> ill keep all allocated windows in a chain and a pointer to the first window
17:01:41 <I440r> and allocate the memory thats needed for each
17:02:00 <MrReach> are you talking the multi-user editor here???
17:02:07 <MrReach> or AN editor?
17:02:59 <MrReach> hello?
17:03:06 <I440r> sarah brady on GUN RELATED charges!!!!
17:03:18 <I440r> seems she illegally baught a rifle in delaware!!!
17:04:02 <MrReach> oh for heaven's sake ... and Tanya Harding got evicted from her apartment in Portand las fall ... who cares?
17:05:14 <I440r> sarah brady is "hadngun control inc"
17:05:16 <futhin> um
17:05:28 <I440r> wants to take ALL our guns away
17:05:31 <MrReach> oh! that's a GOOD punchline!!!!
17:05:47 <MrReach> she was probably trying to prove a point
17:05:58 <MrReach> that anyone could go out and buy a gun
17:06:03 <futhin> what am i supposed to do,  a tcltk  program or a forth program?  what about a nice gui for the ppl to type input into?
17:06:26 <I440r> the law is actually a little stupid. buy a gun and then give it away - your ok. buy a gun TO give away and you are breaking the law
17:06:30 <I440r> delaware law that is
17:06:32 <MrReach> futhin: which language do you know better?
17:06:36 <futhin> forth
17:06:39 <futhin> but i want a gui too
17:06:48 <MrReach> use what you know
17:06:49 <futhin> now see, if i was doing it all in postscript
17:06:54 <futhin> then i could do the gui in tcl
17:07:03 <futhin> and it would simply append onto the postscript file
17:07:14 <onetom> aha
17:07:28 <onetom> theres no task left 4 forth
17:07:30 <futhin> i looked at win32forth, but didn't seem easy to figure out the gui, but maybe it is easier than i think?
17:07:31 <onetom> sad :)
17:07:34 <futhin> heheh
17:07:41 <MrReach> futhin: give the forth program the option of being exec'ed in a pipeline
17:07:51 <onetom> tcltk is the easiest
17:07:52 <futhin> well i'm not concerned about the language, i'm more concerned about getting the job done :)
17:08:04 <MrReach> then use the language you know
17:08:32 <onetom> then, go ahead and do the following:
17:08:35 <MrReach> Zimmer made no concession to easing the construction of GUIs ... it's raw windows code
17:08:51 <onetom> 1, define the output of the gui
17:09:00 <MrReach> tk is rediculously simple to make guis
17:09:16 <onetom>    i advice u that it could b a 4th source like
17:09:30 <onetom> 123213 constant field1
17:09:34 <onetom> 13434 constant field2
17:09:50 <onetom> : annotation s" baafjnerijgne" ;
17:09:56 <onetom> ...
17:10:03 <MrReach> futhin: this is to run on a Windows platform???
17:10:06 <futhin> ooh, gotta go, for a second
17:10:06 <futhin> yes
17:10:08 <futhin> it's windows
17:10:21 <futhin> a tcl gui and forth, would that be best?
17:10:27 <MrReach> hmmm ... why not just extend win32forth a little?
17:10:33 <onetom> then filter it through a forth
17:11:16 <MrReach> you'd get input that looks a little like ... 123 456 wide line ... 123 456 narrow box ... write thefile.ps
17:11:16 <onetom> well, i think tcltk is just a tale
17:11:34 <onetom> probably win32forth is more complicated
17:11:55 <MrReach> "just a tale" ... ???
17:12:06 <I440r> oh - mrreach - what lisense are you going to put on your assembler ??? :)
17:12:32 <MrReach> probably the same as the structs file I sent you ... LGPL
17:12:36 <onetom> its as EZ 2 understand as understanding a tale
17:12:42 <MrReach> yes
17:12:49 <onetom> and its also as chatty as a tale
17:13:43 <MrReach> wifey is home, I'm like to disappear shortly
17:13:54 <onetom> :)
17:13:57 <onetom> have fun
17:14:50 <I440r> hehe
17:18:27 --- quit: rob_ert ("Good ni...*yawn*...zZzzZ")
17:45:39 <I440r> im outa here - gotta go CODE!!! :)
17:45:54 <MrReach> be well
17:45:59 <I440r> :)
17:46:07 <I440r> ill code my "case" replacement :)
17:46:12 <I440r> show u next time im on
17:46:15 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
18:18:39 <futhin> so tcl/tk gui and forth program that generates a postscript file? :P
18:18:47 <futhin> 3 languages! fun fun ;)
18:51:17 <futhin> question:  can the tcl/tk package thingie that i just downloaded (8.3.4) produce executables separate from the package ?
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