00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.17
00:01:52 * qless tries to go back to work...
00:05:21 <qless> mrgone, what the hell are you doing up at this hour?
00:06:29 <MrGone> at this instant, I'm reading about the mechanics of purchasing single-family dwelling "subject-to" current financing
00:07:25 * qless buys mrgone a life, with some quarters found in qless' jacket pocket
00:07:30 <MrGone> which, I gather, is a clause in a purchase offer saying, "I'll buy if your bank is willing to allow me to continue paying on your loan".
00:07:58 <MrGone> btw, it's shortly after midnight here, not at all late for a Saturday night
00:08:16 <qless> how was the coastest with the mostest?
00:08:38 <MrGone> haven't a clue   @:^>
00:08:44 <qless> didn't make it?
00:09:11 <MrGone> didn't make what??
00:10:07 <qless> the coast.  you were going to the coast last i heard
00:10:19 <qless> in a BIG fucking truck
00:10:49 <MrGone> oh, yes, the trip was wonderful
00:11:00 <qless> oh cool
00:11:32 <MrGone> well, it got a bit tricky because the trailer brakes failed just before shooting Snoqualamie pass, but made it home safe and sound
00:11:51 <qless> yowza
00:12:28 <MrGone> (because the truck was so big, ironically)
00:12:50 <qless> i've only done that area by train, and know that there's a tunnel (cascade i think its called) that takes about an hour at 6 mph to go through
00:13:14 <MrGone> heh, never ridden a train here
00:13:25 <qless> freight, buddy.  freight
00:14:03 <MrGone> erm, certainly haven't done that
00:14:21 <MrGone> I'll stick with my cushy trailer, thank you
00:14:27 <qless> :-)
00:17:00 <qless> and i'll stick with my cushy #E plate steel
00:17:33 <MrGone> at least the brakes don't fail
00:17:40 <MrGone> in the snow
00:17:44 <qless> true.  if they do, there's real problems
00:17:47 <qless> :-)
00:33:32 <MrGone> good night, I'm off to bed
00:33:36 <MrGone> (really!)
00:33:40 <qless> good night mrgone
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02:47:48 <futhin> hi
02:47:59 <futhin> 3:45 am
02:48:00 <futhin> yay
02:51:28 <futhin> oh well, off to bed i go (prolly read for as many minutes as i can before becoming the undead!_
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03:14:42 <onetom> hi
03:42:41 <rob_ert> hi onetom
04:16:19 <onetom> hows lifw?
04:16:24 <onetom> life
04:16:44 <rob_ert> Fine, hehe
04:16:49 <onetom> what about the 4th?
04:16:52 <rob_ert> trying to write a little DOS forth
04:16:57 <onetom> imean your 4th
04:17:17 <rob_ert> Trying to figure out how to intepret words now
04:17:21 <onetom> uve told it, i saw
04:17:21 <rob_ert> hi/lo-level
04:17:38 <onetom> and whats the problem?
04:17:54 <onetom> why isnt it already "figured out"?
04:22:55 <rob_ert> hehe
04:23:17 <rob_ert> don't know...
04:23:22 <rob_ert> brain damage? :P
04:25:33 <onetom> eh, come on!
04:25:39 <onetom> what r u doing now?
04:26:05 <rob_ert> trying to make an "intepret" function
04:26:07 <rob_ert> to intepret a word
04:26:21 <rob_ert> (execute it with the vm)
04:36:20 <onetom> could u show me its current status?
04:37:33 <onetom> and the docs on the dict. sturcure
05:10:59 <rob_ert> docs? :) I'm just playing
05:11:09 <rob_ert> with NASM and DOS debug
05:28:47 <onetom> rob_ert: oh, but u should have a dict map even when just playing
05:28:49 <onetom> like:
05:29:24 <onetom> | head: x bytes | token1: 1byte ... | tail: y bytes |
05:29:45 <onetom> head byte 1 bit 7 : means this
05:29:52 <onetom> head byte 2 bit 3-4 : means that
05:32:02 <onetom> rob_ert: what net conn do u have anyway? (how big is your stripewidth? :)
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05:36:27 <rob_ert> 500kbit/s
05:37:04 <rob_ert> what's the head/token/tail things anyway?
05:39:30 <onetom> just an example
05:39:49 <onetom> not a real example
05:40:21 <onetom> but you should have some description about your data structure
05:40:24 <onetom> s
05:40:54 <onetom> anyway, i meant to be a dictionary entry of a threaded word definition
05:41:34 <onetom> but u should have seen such a "diagram" in the 4th-underview
05:43:46 <rob_ert> Yes
05:43:57 <rob_ert> But I didn't quite understand how to organize everything
05:44:52 <onetom> rob_ert: so u dont have even such a plan yet?
05:46:01 <rob_ert> Nope ;)
05:46:12 <rob_ert> But that's what I'm trying to male
05:46:13 <rob_ert> make
05:48:55 <onetom> rob_ert: do u mind if i make a kernel.pas and show you?
05:49:40 <onetom> it will be a verrryveryvery simplistic indirect threaded code exectuion (interpretation) example
05:50:05 <onetom> actually i ll mirror kernel.fs into pascal
06:16:25 <rob_ert> That would be cool
06:20:28 <onetom> noooo
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07:04:30 <Speuler> g'day
07:05:33 <onetom> 2u2
07:14:15 <onetom> what r u working on now?
07:16:01 <Speuler> internet cafe setup
07:18:33 <Speuler> currently the time-is-going-to-elapse-pretty-soon notifier
07:20:03 <onetom> wow, neat lil job
07:20:37 <Speuler> setup for about 1000 machines
07:20:47 <onetom> u write it 4 win, dont u?
07:20:52 <Speuler> nope
07:20:55 <Speuler> linux all over
07:22:01 * Speuler never programmed anything for windows
07:22:04 <onetom> 1000 machines? its not a cafe, thats an entertainment center :)
07:22:12 <onetom> lucky u :)
07:22:18 <Speuler> t'is 20 cafes
07:22:38 <onetom> and what lang do u use for realizing this notifier stuff?
07:23:01 <Speuler> no lang. shell script, png imags, xloadimage
07:23:26 <Speuler> but forth has been used for the setup too
07:23:36 <Speuler> account generation, password generation
07:25:18 <onetom> system administration automating w 4th is a not so common solution. happy 2 hear it :)
07:25:49 <onetom> but why dont u consider shell a language?
07:26:22 <Speuler> yes, why not. maybe, i don't count "batch file programming" as real programming
07:26:37 <Speuler> like, people saying they program in html
07:26:59 <Speuler> somehow, bytes and opcodes must be involved ...
07:27:53 <onetom> hmm hmm
07:27:56 <Speuler> i've been doing more serious programming using forth before
07:28:39 <Speuler> likely i'll be doing that again in future
07:28:45 <onetom> probably my next project will b a 4th kernel written in bash
07:29:02 <onetom> just to show, sh is also a language ;)
07:29:14 <Speuler> cute ...
07:29:48 <onetom> then, it will b easy to run 4th os on top of it :P
07:32:20 <Speuler> no speed considerations ?
07:32:27 <Speuler> performance, i mean 
07:35:30 <onetom> well, u can deny sg is a language just because its slow
07:36:02 <onetom> not even when its goddam fuckin slow :)
07:36:32 <Speuler> i didn't think about the language issue, but the forth os performance ...
07:37:49 <onetom> ah, the 4os... performance wont be that bad, but we will c
07:38:01 <onetom> imagine an os in pure asm
07:38:44 <onetom> well, 4os will b also coded in "asm"
07:39:16 <onetom> in the asm os a general - and hopefuly unifiable - forth processor
07:39:34 <onetom> in the asm OF a ...
07:40:57 <onetom> so infact coding an os in pure forth shouldnt produce a poor performing result, iguess
07:41:37 <Speuler> so, writing the shell in asm would improve the performance of forth os on top of shell script forth ?
07:41:46 <onetom> but plz, criticize the idea, b4 we go into a wrong direction!
07:42:20 <onetom> Speuler: ugh... whaaat? :))
07:42:35 <onetom> ah, got it.
07:42:35 <onetom> no
07:43:23 <onetom> i state writing an os in forth is similar 2 writing an os in asm
07:43:52 <onetom> coz, 4th is "just" the assembly of a 4th processor
07:44:32 <onetom> thats an other question u usually wont run forth os on a real 4th chip
07:45:01 <onetom> but inside an emulated/simulated "cage"
07:51:39 <Speuler> brb
07:53:48 <onetom> k
08:20:50 <Speuler> back
08:24:10 <Speuler> l8er ... testing 
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09:47:27 <Etaoin> h
09:47:27 <Etaoin> i
09:47:48 <Speuler> hi again
10:59:37 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
11:00:23 <MrReach> hihi!
11:01:41 <MrReach> onetom: why not write all the shell functions into a forth?
11:02:01 <MrReach> such a beast might help its popularity
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11:04:13 <futhin> good morn all
11:04:24 <MrReach> good morning, futhin
11:04:53 <futhin> how is it going mrreach? :)
11:05:14 <MrReach> kinda slow yet, just woke up
11:07:12 <futhin> yeah
11:07:42 <futhin> i'm hungover (or do you say i have a hangover?)
11:07:52 <futhin> alcohol sucks heh
11:08:09 * MrReach laughs, "Not while you're drinking it!"
11:08:10 <futhin> last time i drank must've been a month or two ago
11:08:46 <futhin> i generally don't drink alcohol because it isn't worth it :)
11:09:09 <MrReach> heh, me neither
11:09:27 <MrReach> but when I do, watch out ... I become the life of the party
11:10:21 <futhin> heh
11:10:39 <futhin> that's probably an drunken illusion :P
11:10:49 <futhin> i think the same way too ;)
11:10:50 <MrReach> should have seen me at my sister's wedding reception last year, I had EVERYONE rolling
11:11:05 <MrReach> no, people invite me back
11:11:14 <futhin> heh
11:11:20 <MrReach> (maybe just to laugh AT me, granted)
11:11:55 <MrReach> my sister still has mustard on her kitchen ceiling
11:12:19 <futhin> well, it really depends, sometimes i'll drink a ton, and i won't really be drunk, sometimes i'll be serious, or sometimes i'll be relaxed..
11:13:23 <futhin> mustard on the ceiling..  doesn't sound good :)
11:29:57 <MrReach> it is amusing to note that reviewers thought a 32bit RISC processor running at 133MHz was a bit short of horsepower for a PDA
11:30:15 <MrReach> that is because it is trying to run WindowsCE
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13:41:49 <nilsw> rob_ert is a power idler ;D
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13:56:25 <Etaoin> hi
13:56:36 <rob_ert> Hello.
13:57:01 <MrReach> some might think so
13:57:36 <rob_ert> But I am actually addicted enough to be present here some of the time!
13:57:50 <rob_ert> (unlike that clog, or ChanServ... both idlers)
13:58:00 <MrReach> heh, bots
13:58:30 <rob_ert> Yes, but that doesn't explain all of it, does it?
13:58:44 <MrReach> erm ... all of what?
13:59:07 <rob_ert> The great mystery of clog & ChanServ, the golden duo of #forth.
13:59:15 <rob_ert> (Yes, I'm just trolling around)
13:59:22 <MrReach> so I see
13:59:59 <MrReach> chanserv is provided by openprojects and the server itself, while clog is provided by an individual for logging purposes
14:00:11 <MrReach> but you knew that
14:00:19 <MrReach> *BIG* mystery
14:00:42 <rob_ert> :)
14:01:20 <MrReach> now, it would be damn impressive if they were both written in forth
14:02:08 <MrReach> (which would imply that the server was, also)
14:02:44 <rob_ert> Forth hasn't taken over the world...yet.
14:03:22 <Etaoin> I don't think it will.
14:03:27 <MrReach> heh, the system reuirements for all three would probably be an 80386SX, 16MHZ, 1MB ram, and however much HD for logging
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14:04:17 <MrReach> wb, Soap-
14:04:43 <rob_ert> MrReach: "Who needs fast programs in the age of <1ns-instructions?"
14:04:44 <Soap-> Morning
14:04:51 <rob_ert> (Even though I don't agree to that)
14:05:42 <MrReach> actually, forth should be moving towards the front because its slower speed is becoming less and less relevant
14:06:00 <MrReach> but it isn't ... probably because of lack of uniform libraries
14:06:27 <rob_ert> Hmm... have there been any reliable benchmarks of forth programs compared to e.g. C?
14:06:37 <MrReach> yes, dozens
14:07:10 <MrReach> unfortunately, they are only of limited value, because the paradigms forbuilding apps are *WAY* different
14:07:49 <rob_ert> Didn't quite understand that last sentence :/
14:08:00 <rob_ert> Do you mind taking it in Swedish? :)
14:08:07 <MrReach> forth programs are written differently
14:08:14 <MrReach> I don't do Swedish, sorry
14:08:15 <rob_ert> Ah, OK..
14:08:21 <rob_ert> np ;)
14:08:41 <MrReach> if you take a C implementation and translate directly into Forth, it will be suboptimal
14:08:49 <MrReach> and vice versa
14:10:26 <rob_ert> I see, thanks.
14:10:45 <rob_ert> Haven't there been any "fair" tests then?
14:11:05 <MrReach> as a rule, forth runs 2-5x slower than C
14:11:11 <rob_ert> Mkay...
14:11:37 <MrReach> which doesn't mean squate with todays processors
14:13:00 <rob_ert> Depends maybe a bit on what you're doing, and how many words you write in asm :-)
14:13:10 * rob_ert imagines a slow game ported to forth.
14:13:13 <MrReach> indeed
14:13:25 <MrReach> that is the way it's usually done, in fact
14:15:39 <rob_ert> What do you mean?
14:16:17 <MrReach> the code is first written to perform as it should, regardless of how fast or slow it is
14:16:28 <MrReach> then particular words are recoded into ASM
14:16:46 <Etaoin> make it work, then make it work fast, if needed
14:16:53 <rob_ert> :)
14:17:06 <rob_ert> The philosophy I can't live up to ;)
14:17:24 <MrReach> heh
14:17:32 <rob_ert> I find myself with doing stupid size optimizations (and getting stuck with the whole project because of that).
14:17:37 <rob_ert> Gotta stop doing that sometime...
14:18:02 <MrReach> yep, write first, optimise later
14:18:38 <Etaoin> but write flexibly so it's easy to change parts to make them faster
14:18:50 * MrReach nods
14:20:30 <rob_ert> I'm too inpatient for that sometimes :-/ When I try to write something fairly complex in a few hours, the result looks like...BASIC code.
14:20:52 <MrReach> that happens
14:22:02 <rob_ert> And the second problem is, when I try to take time, I get tired after a few hours :)
14:22:15 * rob_ert maybe should look for something better to do ;)
14:22:37 <Etaoin> or try a higher level language
14:22:57 * Etaoin prepares for the flogging
14:23:40 <rob_ert> Etaoin: Maybe... Any recommendations?
14:23:46 <rob_ert> btw, what's "flogging"?
14:24:15 <Etaoin> rob_ert: flogging is a punishment where the recipient is hit by a bunch of stones throw by some people
14:24:26 <Etaoin> s/throw/thrown/
14:25:07 <Etaoin> rob_ert: I like python.
14:25:34 <rob_ert> Etaoin: Ah, when they've done that to you, you're "stoned" (at least in sweden)
14:25:48 <Etaoin> it's called that too
14:26:06 <rob_ert> OK.
14:26:23 <rob_ert> flogging looks like a typo of "logging"...
14:27:21 <Etaoin> the only thing I don't like about python is that it doesn't have the concept of macros like lisp does
14:29:12 <rob_ert> Well, good night #forth. Take care, and code hard :) See you after sleep + school.
14:29:28 <Etaoin> bye
14:30:34 <MrReach> be well
14:30:46 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
14:30:50 <rob_ert> Bye bye :)
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