00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.15 02:03:45 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 02:03:58 hi dudes :)= 02:06:04 :-D 03:22:36 --- nick: Soap- -> SoapZZzz 03:43:08 hello Stepan 03:44:38 hey onetom :-) 03:45:54 last day we have started wondering about a forth os 03:45:57 w futhin 03:47:23 :) 03:47:26 dont u know about similar former projects? 03:47:36 by chance 03:47:40 i heard about a forth os approach a long time ago 03:47:48 but all the web pages vanished 03:49:17 wish i knew why...? 03:51:14 yepp.. strange . i have no idea either 03:54:31 and aint u interested in such a project? 04:00:50 i am indeed 04:01:38 even though i see bigger need in forth in firmware as for an os. writing os in C++/Objective C/Java is kind of a nice approach as well 04:02:01 java bytecode and forth bytecode like used in open firmware is almost the same anyways 04:22:34 hmmm hmmm 04:23:02 im afraid, we will end up in java finally :-/ 04:23:14 * rob_ert shrugs 04:23:24 Don't quite like Java... 04:27:15 Why? The bytecode is a stackbased language, almost identical to forth 04:27:36 Just a paranoid fear. 04:28:14 Java is like many projects in software world.. really cool idea, really crappy implementation 04:29:13 Hehe 04:29:30 But yes, I agree that it's a really cool idea. 04:30:01 Binary compatible on different platforms etc.. 04:31:21 Stepan: do u know uml? 04:32:02 can java classes cover uml modell 100%? 04:32:15 afaik yes. 04:32:20 ayyay 04:32:31 but i am not sure 04:32:42 do u know database theory? 04:34:16 normalization, keys, attributes, entities, relations, joins ... 04:34:28 brb 04:36:52 i did that a long time ago at uni 04:37:00 but i am not into it anymore 04:38:45 godo 04:38:51 :)))) imean good 04:39:18 (waitin for godo) 04:39:42 so, last session's idea was the following: 04:39:42 *godo knocks on the door* 04:40:24 lets implement sw prjs at different levels 04:40:33 /layers 04:41:39 the same way as db has 3 layers: theoretical(or what)/logical/physical 04:42:42 the programs written for forthos would b 04:43:02 implemented in such a layered manner 04:43:40 the highest level could b a 1-1 transformation of uml into 4th 04:44:14 so an uml plan could come to life within mins 04:44:46 tho, this would suck coz it would work damn-dog-slow 04:44:51 but it would work 04:45:13 this level should always b kept up to date 04:46:08 this level would allow non-coderbrain ppl to understand a sw and allow them make experimental modifications on it easily 04:46:50 it the sw does what it should, it could b transfered to the next layer 04:47:41 it should b rewritten via using not so highlevel or even not obj oriented tools/constructs 04:48:18 but why would a non-coder want to make experimental modifications? 04:48:19 this should serve gaining speed 04:48:36 coz, she is a mathematican, eg 04:48:42 or engineer 04:48:54 ack 04:49:09 c the point then? 04:49:44 it would b sufficient to teach 4th & oo (uml) in schools 04:50:15 and then those youngsters can easily experiment w ANY kind of software 04:50:51 coz they could understand the highest level implementation of that stuff 04:51:12 wo any difficulties 04:51:31 and then let me finish up the model 04:51:33 : 04:51:46 the 3rd layer would b the optimisation layer 04:52:24 in that, sensitive parts of the could 04:53:08 has been reimplemented in lowlevel 4th (what is actually the assembly of the whole forth os) 04:54:35 sw @ this layer could already b considered production quality sw 04:55:14 and the most important factor in the whole "idea" 04:55:51 is keeping/developing these implementations synchronously exist 04:56:36 and regulary infiltrate proven code from higher layers 2 lower 1s 04:57:48 probably this would require a strict version numbering scheme... 04:57:59 what about it, stephan? 06:17:38 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 06:19:44 qless :) 06:19:59 heya rob_ert 06:39:34 qless: hi 06:39:46 onetom, greetings 06:39:55 qless: aint u interested in a forth operating system? 06:40:10 onetom, i was developing on for a while 06:40:18 one 06:40:21 wow 06:40:37 and what was wrong w it? 06:40:43 onetom, but real work took precedence with fun work 06:40:59 can u share your results w us? 06:41:12 futhin: is also interested in this area 06:41:27 onetom, i'd like to, but i told the group that i wouldn't release anything until it was self hosting 06:42:02 eg, we have already created a channel #forthos 06:42:11 eh, thats sad 06:42:14 oh cool 06:42:33 mmMmmMmm... forth OS... 06:42:48 fos 06:43:01 fosfor..yum 06:43:01 yep, you just sit down in the morning and type the word 'work' and it does everything you need to do, and even makes lunch for you 06:43:06 but it means some kind of shit 06:44:10 an even eats the lunch insted of u :) 06:44:16 :-) 06:44:41 and it empties out the bank accounts of all the #forth regulars and writes you a cheque 06:44:43 coz, who doesnt work, dont even eat! - as the folk wiseness says :) 06:45:21 what if you work, but don't eat? 06:45:45 than u cant call it a day yet :) 06:46:14 --- quit: Stepan ("Do you think it is air you are breathing? Hmm?") 06:46:22 then i must be back in 1993 somewhere 06:46:29 what a long day 06:46:31 :-) 06:46:35 :))) 06:47:20 dont u know by chance about former, similar attempts like 4os? 06:47:49 nope. i was writing my forth os to teach myself forth 06:48:05 your? 06:48:20 i were just talking about a team some mins b4 06:48:42 imean: s/^i/u/ 06:48:56 there was never a team 06:49:05 just me 06:49:10 and my cat 06:49:19 ...but i told the group... 06:49:27 what group? 06:49:38 yeah, i told people on #forth (the group) that i wouldn't release anything until it was self hosting 06:49:58 but it was just me working on it 06:50:28 but if u dont share, we couldnt help working on it 06:50:50 infact i cant understand: "until it was self hosting" :( 06:51:03 i cant translate it 2 hungarian 06:51:23 self-hosting = it can compile itself so you don't need to have any tools like nasm or a linker or whatever 06:51:35 ahaaa 06:52:04 i have a different approach to this project 06:52:15 cool, lets hear it 06:52:21 i would build a whole sw world 06:52:30 on top of a 4th processor 06:52:57 hmmm 06:53:02 so it could b portable, simulatable and nestable 06:53:51 coding the whole stuff in 4th - which is actually the assembly of a 4th processor - 06:54:09 yowza 06:54:16 could result the features ive just mentioned 06:54:22 yowza? 06:54:29 yowza = wow-wee 06:54:45 k 06:54:53 wow-wee = wow! 06:55:05 1 more thing also became clear 06:55:11 yeah? 06:55:24 oh 06:55:32 this whole system could help creating reference code for anything 06:55:42 yep 06:56:02 what could run on top of everything what has a minimal 4th @ least 06:56:21 yep. you' 06:56:29 you've been talking to futhin, haven't you :-) 06:56:40 sure, ive told u 06:56:44 yep 06:57:00 he's the other guy who is on #forthos :) 06:57:06 does anyone know how does> , and create work from an assembly programmer's point of view? 06:57:16 but we end up this idea separately 06:57:24 oh my. does> is one of the most complex ideas in assembler 06:57:48 we r both dreaming about such a system for many years actually 06:57:55 cool 06:58:23 so i think we should implement basic 4th processors 06:58:32 in many common languages 06:58:40 ah 06:58:50 to allow systems having only that language 06:59:29 running our 4os what is actually implemented in 4th 07:00:01 wild 07:00:09 but what has became clear? - u should ask 07:00:30 well, who's going to design your 4th chip? 07:00:33 well, as a reference code creating platform 07:01:08 qless: neve mind, probably i will? with a cpld? 07:01:22 sounds like fun 07:01:27 but theres no need for an actual chip, coz 07:01:46 oh you're going to make a 4th virtual machine then? 07:01:49 - as ive just mentioned b4 - u can "simulate" it on top of any language 07:01:57 right ok, i get the picture now 07:02:19 but if u realize such a real chip 07:02:37 u can even get huge performance also 07:03:34 but let me explain the other "?great?" idea 07:03:46 layered sw design 07:03:59 layered in complexity 07:04:20 layered in the means of the tools used to implement that sw 07:04:48 will it know how to make the perfect tuna sandwich? 07:05:15 finally? sure! (what is tune anyway?) 07:05:26 tuna 07:05:28 mmMmmm 07:05:29 tuna 07:05:33 fish 07:05:34 tuna is a fish 07:05:55 but back to the layeredness: 07:05:57 white fish from the ocean 07:06:09 the top layer would be the uml layer 07:06:33 uml? do you mean xml? 07:06:43 in that u code the app in uml 07:06:53 oh wow, that sounds pretty cool indeed 07:07:02 and represent it in forth text 07:07:11 so it could work immediately 07:07:32 tho, its gonna have poor performance 07:07:47 but this layer is easily modifiable 07:07:51 understandable 07:08:05 even by non-coderbrain individuals 07:08:25 like scientists engineers ... 07:08:28 rob_ert, i think we were just insulted... 'coderbrain'? 07:08:31 mathematicans 07:08:33 :-) 07:09:15 imagine a eg. a doctor hacking a apache represented in uml 07:09:44 what is 1-1 projected to forth text (source code) 07:10:31 this layer is what i would call phylosphical layer 07:10:39 the next 1 is the logical 07:11:27 in logical level, there could happen some 07:12:01 modifictions, deviation from strict and clear uml model 07:12:15 do u know uml? 07:12:37 it could even avoid oo-ness for simplicity and speed 07:12:41 coderbrain != insult 07:12:41 and u? 07:12:41 :P 07:13:15 codebrain truth = . ? 07:13:37 coderbrain = neo maxi zoom geekoid 07:14:03 qless: do U know uml? 07:14:22 onetom, actually i'm working on a gnu tool that produces uml diagrams 07:14:28 dia? 07:14:32 correct 07:14:39 or that 1 for k desktop 07:14:44 nope, dia 07:15:03 wow, what a small world is this opensrc world :) 07:15:14 it is indeed :) 07:16:21 and finally the 3rd layer would b the obfucation layer 07:16:27 hehe 07:16:52 u can apply just the most weired optimizations, tricks, weapons u have 07:17:23 if u reimplement the software in this layer 07:17:26 can i straight-line code the whole thing so there are no loops? 07:17:43 according to the plans of the layers above 07:18:14 (actually the implementation in the upper layers r the plans itself) 07:18:27 qless: yeah, just like that 07:18:47 coz implementing sg in this layer should server speed gain 07:19:06 mem consumption tightening 07:20:06 this makes an app really usable in everyday context 07:20:28 hmm 07:20:43 and the most important of all 07:21:05 u have to maintain all these 3 layers 07:21:14 SIMULTENIOUSLY 07:22:31 if u plan to modify sg at the obfuscation level 07:22:53 u have to c wheather it touches upper layers 07:23:09 and u have to do the modifications there 1st 07:23:21 ah 07:23:28 2 c if it works at all 07:23:58 and u can even profile the idea at that level 07:24:32 and if it doesnt seem to raise performance 07:25:06 probably it wont even raise it if u make the modification 07:25:17 in the lowest level 07:25:37 so it avoids unneeded work 07:25:57 and makes ideas testable faster 07:26:03 what if i like unneeded work? :) 07:26:22 then u r free to do it 07:26:28 ok good 07:27:01 its always good 4 1 thing: learning, gathering experience 07:27:27 sounds good 07:28:03 and i also had a 3rd idea 07:28:25 we could modify gcc to produce code 4 this 4th processor 07:28:43 are the floating point and the normal data stack different? 07:29:01 did u know that gcc already has an 'intermediate' format which is used to represent generic code? 07:29:09 so we could compile and use already written C programs under our OS 07:29:10 so, "1 4e0 . f. " will print 1 4 and not nonsense? 07:29:10 you could use that 07:29:49 i have some dim memory about it 07:30:10 hm 07:30:14 but i was not interested in it that tim 07:30:14 they seem to be different 07:30:15 e 07:30:20 rob_ert: hold on 07:30:57 rob_ert: yes, those r two different stacks 07:31:18 just like in any inte processors 07:31:22 intel 07:32:33 onetom: :) 07:33:11 any more questions 07:33:12 : 07:33:13 ? 07:33:21 uhm.. no :) 07:34:07 yes, can we scan rob_ert's brain into the 4th os and give him a sense of humour? 07:34:37 j/k 07:35:10 give me or the forth OS a sense of.."humor"? 07:35:44 ... and teach rob_ert to spell using the international style? 07:35:56 qless: : humor ; 07:36:15 qless: What do you mean? 07:36:17 (humour) 07:36:34 do u mean i should spell like 1tom? 07:36:50 u should spell it like the Queen, who is sadly not present at the moment 07:36:58 :-) 07:37:14 nm me, its early 07:37:35 why do u think she doesnt spell like me? ;) 07:38:07 heh 07:38:23 she has already started using the net 07:38:27 (onetom _is_ the queen) 07:38:59 and probably she will b excited by the diversity of the english language 07:39:39 (rob_ert, thats absolutely right) 07:40:07 * qless drops a rock on his toe to be sure he's awake 07:40:14 * qless his own toe 07:40:17 who is the crossdresser, here, maaan!?!?! 07:40:33 what? hehe 07:41:34 queen is one of gay/trans-/homo sexual/crossdresser 07:41:39 am i right? 07:42:17 i was referring to the Queen of england, but if you _want_ to be queen, that's fine with me 07:42:39 q(ueen)less 07:42:45 lol 07:43:05 * qless sings a country and western song about how he lost his queen :( 07:43:15 :D 07:43:51 pick ( a b c 3 -- a b c a ) 07:43:53 correct? 07:43:57 qless: i know, what u r talking about. queens/official english 07:44:21 onetom, ok, i was just joking anyway 07:44:35 BUT IM NOT! 07:44:42 * rob_ert picks qless' eye out. 07:44:42 just now :))) 07:44:53 rob_ert: lolll 07:45:08 rob_ert, huh? 07:45:28 qi pick 07:45:43 rob_ert, 0 is the 1st element, so that should be 2 pick 07:45:47 [kyu-ai] pick, c? :) 07:46:23 quiestoin: 07:46:29 question: 07:46:45 what collaborative sw development sites do u know of? 07:46:46 qless: but the 2 itself doesn't count 07:46:48 ? 07:47:00 beside sourceforge which justs sux 07:47:18 savannah? 07:47:22 and beside savannah (its successor) which i dont know 07:47:27 :P 07:47:32 wheather it sux or not 07:47:34 0 pick does nothing. 1 pick is over. 2 pick is a b c a 07:47:44 -1 pick ? 07:48:06 -1 pick causes a warp in the space/time continuoum 07:48:18 and 0 pick is dup 07:48:21 -1 pick picks a stack item before it exists 07:49:13 no it doesnt 07:49:13 onetom, you're right about that 07:49:21 -1 pick -1 itself 07:49:26 on top of itself 07:49:45 -1 pick is equvivalent to -1 07:50:06 sorry, i was thinking -2 pick 07:51:13 ok, thankyou 07:51:41 so i will plant all my ideas about the 4th os on a savannah page 07:51:55 cool 07:51:56 (ive already registered meself on it) 07:52:14 and even made a prj (codename 4os) 07:53:00 but probably we could call it forth os in forth = fosfor = phosphor 07:53:07 after robert :) 07:53:57 i would call it "coderbrain" after rob_ert 07:56:32 :P 07:56:44 fosfor is the swedish word for phosphor btw 07:56:55 rob_ert, that /is/ cool 07:58:00 Who? What? When? 07:58:29 & foszfor is the hungarian variation 07:58:50 Foster's is the australian version 07:59:04 rob_ert, qless: have u ever tried savannah? 07:59:25 onetom, what is savannah? 07:59:33 and forester is the american 1 (fater the bold & rich series ;) 07:59:45 the successor of sourceforge 07:59:53 http://savannah.gnu.org/ 07:59:53 oh 08:00:22 could u all b so kind as to try it out? 08:00:42 plz, create a rob_ert and a qless user on it 08:00:53 wiill this replace sourceforge?? 08:01:01 and register two fake projects 08:01:19 well, it should, coz serious problems has arosen w sf.net 08:01:34 it is about to close up, i think 08:01:42 i want to register 'tunaslap' a forth based irc client 08:01:53 no, make that 'troutslap' 08:02:22 :) doesnt matter, just try it plz 08:02:39 later. i have to get busy before i got back to bed 08:02:49 coz the 4os prj ive registered this early-mornin hasnt appeared yet 08:02:55 hm 08:02:58 never tried it 08:03:08 but I know cookin from #osdev uses it for his rtmk 08:04:07 Group Name Taken 08:04:08 That group name already exists. 08:04:18 f*ck. how can i use it then? 08:04:32 food, brb 08:04:34 should i create an ssh key? 08:07:31 i have to reboot, back later 08:07:56 --- quit: qless ("Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/]") 08:18:59 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 08:19:15 'morning 08:22:12 --- part: Speuler left #forth 08:30:50 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk3.sat.net) joined #forth 08:33:06 grr.. 08:33:18 grr to you, too 08:33:25 :) 08:33:32 hi Etaoin 08:33:42 gforth gives me "trying to intepret a compile-only word (';')" error 08:34:00 I just try to load my file with ./gfort integrate.f 08:34:07 it worked before :/ 08:34:45 hehe 08:34:53 Argh! 08:34:57 I found the error 08:35:08 ." f(x) = "; 08:35:09 (yes, I'm a C addict) 08:36:17 are you a c addict? 08:44:49 Hmm.. 08:44:51 A bit 08:45:00 But I'm even more addcited to asm. 09:18:19 then, u r not far from addicted to 4th ;) 09:18:28 from being 09:21:33 :D 09:27:14 dont laugh, im serious 09:27:22 about it 09:27:59 My forth program to calculate integrals works :) 09:28:31 hooray 09:28:45 :-D 09:28:57 Want to see my code so you get something to laugh at? 09:29:08 okay 09:29:33 let me show u some example asm code 09:29:37 : integrate 09:29:37 ( function -- ) 09:29:37 ( from to -- x ) 09:29:37 09:29:37 0.1e0 f- \ from to 09:29:38