00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.13 00:29:53 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 00:30:00 re 00:58:54 'ello and goodnight 00:58:57 --- nick: Soap- -> SoapSleep 04:05:38 u there, Stepan ? 04:05:54 ive just realized the following: 04:06:06 [05:24] *** Joins: uiver [~segher@a43195.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #forth 04:06:13 [04:00] i'm currently writing a compiler 04:06:14 [04:01] the engine to go with it already runs 04:06:14 [04:02] this is destined to become a free Open Firmware implementation 04:06:57 have u already talked about it yet? 04:16:20 w him 04:17:33 yep 04:17:46 i already tried his work 04:18:04 yesterday evening. 04:22:14 I'm happy if someone helps openbios.. then I am not the only one doing it. 04:22:47 what i dont like about uiver's work is that he calls it a Linux implementation. OpenBIOS should be completely os independant 04:23:03 but thats a minor issue. it will work on all platforms anyways 04:28:48 some day we should sit down 2 brainstorm once... :) 04:29:40 u know id like to rewrite eforth for pic controllers 04:29:52 the existing one is a bit ugly 04:30:58 isn't like 30 to 70 bytes of RAM a little too little for forth programs? 04:30:59 and i also have to continue enhancing mary-forth (within some weeks) 04:31:12 I mean, while still keeping it efficient 04:31:28 rob_ert: absolutely not 04:31:45 just sum how many stack levels r u using 04:31:57 is the forth code loaded in program memory? 04:32:07 add the space reqed by yr variables 04:32:15 sure 04:32:17 ah, then it's of course OK 04:32:40 smaller PICs have harvard architecture 04:32:45 what's that? 04:33:39 0.5k-8k program memory and 38-900byte data mem 04:34:01 harvard arch: separate program & data mem 04:34:17 hehe, I though of the 16c/f84 series 04:34:24 neumann arch: 1 operational mem. 04:34:29 1K program memory... 04:34:50 (normally) 04:34:56 yes. eg, iv written a "digital flute" program in 04:35:02 (let me look it up 4 ya) 04:35:42 0x0240 instructions 04:35:50 :-) 04:36:48 its 4th source is 3054 bytes 04:37:05 it generates midi events on pressing and releasing keys 04:37:13 when u blow it 04:37:28 and recognises the various fingerings 04:37:37 cool :-) 04:37:54 i know ;) 04:38:00 i made it :))) 04:38:40 the most annoying restriction is the 8 level nonaddressable hardware return stack 04:38:52 hehe 04:38:54 it fucks up factoring a bit :-/ 04:39:05 factoring? 04:39:09 ah 04:39:11 hm 04:39:15 u have to inline many words 04:39:22 isn't the return stack in normal memory? 04:39:30 RAM, that is 04:39:42 eg u cant create aliases 4 greater readability... 04:40:00 coz they eat up a stack level @ runtime 04:40:19 which is usually not a problem regarding the execution speed 04:41:02 but largely reduces the avail prg complexity 04:41:19 --- quit: Stepan (Remote closed the connection) 04:41:44 rob_ert: well, the usual implementation have return stack in RAM 04:41:58 but thats only used by do ... loop 04:42:02 r> >r 04:42:29 and the like 04:43:11 but the 4th program in it is natively compiled 04:43:41 so threaded code is represented as call instructions 04:44:06 and call usues the hw stack. that 8 level deep 1, yes :( 05:32:41 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 05:32:46 'oi 05:36:00 hoi ook 05:36:47 --- quit: Speuler (Success) 05:38:32 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 05:39:48 wb :-) 05:40:41 still same prob a yesterday ... 05:41:02 blessed excrement 05:41:57 hmm... 05:42:15 is gforth a GNU project? 05:42:30 yes 05:42:40 gforth = gnu forth 05:42:49 --- join: Speuler_ (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 05:42:55 backup ... 05:43:20 derived from atari volksforth, 05:43:29 original author klaus schleisiek 05:43:41 ported and enhanced by anton ertl 05:43:42 volksforth.. lol 05:44:02 then bernd paysan and jens wilke contributed 05:44:33 jens = cross compiler 05:44:35 Do you know of any forth for CP/M-86? 05:44:53 yes 05:44:57 but forgot the name 05:45:03 i actually have one 05:45:08 but it is a compiler 05:45:15 not an interpreter 05:45:26 code in, stand-alone executable out 05:45:44 that's cforth 05:45:53 mkay 05:46:01 more recently known as forthcmp 05:46:30 (don't know whether forthcomp still supports cp/m) 05:46:48 might try that if I get my old compis out of the storage room... 05:47:41 ertl=wien, paysan and wilke=muenchen 05:47:54 cforth author is tom almy 05:48:02 does also lisp 05:48:28 schleisiek is i think hamburg 05:48:54 That's where those persons live? 05:48:59 forthcmp is shareware 05:49:02 yes 05:49:21 cforth was commercial 05:49:25 not even cheap 05:50:49 i'v used cforth a lot for different projects (compiled for msdos too) 05:51:05 oh.. 05:51:14 generated very tight code 05:51:19 them maybe it's not worth the effort 05:51:21 then* 05:51:38 could get my old C128 05:51:43 for learning, it's not a good system 05:51:45 with C64-forth :) 05:52:09 interactive systems make learning easier 05:52:25 you got an amiga 05:52:29 yes.. 05:52:31 there's jforth and aforth 05:52:42 Of which I have niether 05:52:43 32 bit ! 05:52:47 hehe 05:53:01 cp/m forth would very likely be 16bit 05:53:07 I only got AmigaBASIC :-/ 05:53:10 cforth is too 05:53:14 (and a ton of games) 05:53:19 i got aforth from internet 05:53:25 somewhere ... 05:53:27 years ago 05:53:28 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:53:33 the write some 4th in basic :) 05:53:37 then 05:54:14 lol 05:54:35 Speuler_: How to transfer that to the amiga then? 05:54:37 hey! why r u laughing? 05:54:48 it would b a nice excercise 05:54:54 onetom: yeah :P 05:55:20 Speuler has a faulty network cable. he told it yesterday 05:55:25 right 05:55:30 OK 05:55:49 eg, rewrite my sample code in basic 05:55:55 brb 05:55:57 ;) 05:56:24 onetom: Actually, I might try that sometime when I'm really bored 05:56:29 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 05:56:31 writing a forth in standard BASIC :P 05:56:34 wb 05:59:16 its wuite straight forward anyway... 05:59:37 u would be astonished by the results, iguess 05:59:48 it doesnt takes too much time, i think 06:00:28 to ease the task, probably u can "cross compile" the dictionary 4 it 06:01:12 some weeks later we could try it for fun, i think :) 06:01:16 but will c 06:04:56 do old BASICs support arrays? 06:04:58 grr.. lag 06:05:17 --- Ping reply from rob_ert : 211.71 second(s) 06:05:19 ! 06:05:20 sure (hope so :) 06:05:28 :-) 06:05:51 ah, got it 06:05:55 DIM :) 06:05:59 remember? 06:06:03 yeah, I do 06:06:13 but I didn't know old BASICs supported it 06:06:17 guess it's in the standard 06:06:40 ZX81 and ZX Spectrum had DIM 06:06:57 Guess c64 BASIC has it too 06:07:07 then, go ahead :) 06:07:10 It would be intepreted-only, or? 06:07:38 storing lists of strings in BASIC... *shrug* 06:08:08 he? 06:08:39 u dont have to deal too much w strings in basic 06:08:50 u have to do it already in 4th 06:10:07 u reserve mem areas 4 the 4th processor 06:10:47 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:11:01 or simply allocate 1 huge array 06:11:02 hm 06:11:11 I mean, names for used-defined words etc. 06:11:22 and split it up 2 various segments 06:11:28 like stacks 06:11:35 dict 06:12:01 probably separate name and threaded code dict 06:12:26 i got it what r u talking about 06:12:40 but u really dont have to deal much w strings in basic 06:13:03 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 06:15:50 it would b great to implement various languages in 4th 06:16:08 so they could be highly portable 06:16:28 and its great it poor performance is not a problem 06:17:03 imagine a stack of languages: 06:17:19 amiga basic running a simple 06:17:31 forth running a 06:17:47 multitasking forth written in forth running a 06:17:54 python written in forth 06:17:55 :P 06:18:05 that would be...s-l-o-w :D 06:18:06 running zope, for example :) 06:18:12 running a 3D game 06:18:21 Quake? 06:18:23 for running a 3d game 06:18:29 well, yes 06:18:55 but for running simple text manipulation 06:19:01 * rob_ert imagines a frame rate of 2^-30 fps 06:19:10 or prototyping algorithms... 06:19:30 calculating pi? 06:19:43 gak, nooo :) 06:19:52 or yes? 06:19:55 why not 06:21:00 the fisrt 5 decimals would take years 06:21:31 having L^2 = LxL, where L={all common languages} would b great 06:21:52 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-11.sat.net) joined #forth 06:21:58 but @ least we could have {forth}x{all common languages} 06:22:22 :-) 06:22:27 Hello Etaoin 06:22:29 coz, probably forth is the most portable 1 of all 06:23:54 so we could have nice and efficient & easy to understand reference codes for the various languages 06:24:08 hm, writing one in Pascal wouldn't be too hard either 06:24:27 and I have a pretty good pascal compiler on my CP/M machine :) 06:24:36 but pascal is not portable enough, c? 06:24:49 It has no C compiler 06:24:55 Only comal and pascal. 06:25:17 but u dont have 1 for the processors of the future 06:25:44 tho implementing a 4th for the is quite easy 06:26:22 u dont have to port the c compiler first to 06:26:36 use a new architecture 06:27:48 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:30:35 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 06:39:40 hmm 06:40:04 how often did i disappear during the last half an hour ? 06:40:12 too many times 06:40:26 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 06:41:16 wb 06:44:41 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:47:26 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 06:56:18 --- part: Speuler left #forth 07:21:04 --- nick: Speuler_ -> Speuler 08:32:43 . 08:33:41 --- part: Speuler left #forth 08:39:07 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 08:41:59 --- quit: Speuler () 09:01:10 . 09:24:58 . 09:30:03 --- join: bpt (bpt@bespin.org) joined #forth 09:30:31 Hey 09:30:34 Forgot us? :P 09:32:57 hey rob_ert 09:33:01 rob_ert: yes, for a while :P 09:35:45 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 09:35:56 howdy folks 09:36:21 hi :) 09:36:27 heya rob_ert :) 09:36:45 just taking a break, thought i pop in and see whats up 09:37:39 we're still living :) 09:37:51 good good :) 09:37:52 (even though bpt has other plans) 09:38:01 is bpt feeling suicidal? 09:38:06 hey qless 09:38:12 heya bpt 09:38:12 rob_ert: huh? 09:38:25 rob_ert: what do you mean? 09:38:30 lol, that was a joke.. I meant bpt felt like killing us 09:38:46 * rob_ert won't joke when bpt is near anymore :P 09:38:57 oh oh. murder and mayham... that's all #forth is about these days :-) 09:39:18 qless: Yes.. it's terrible. 09:39:27 Too much violence in the world of forth 09:39:29 rob_ert: heh, ok 09:39:32 * rob_ert arrests bpt 09:39:34 rob_ert: whatever ;P 09:39:40 * qless looks at the growing stack of bodies on the floor 09:39:44 * qless sad to see 09:39:52 is qless sad to see? :) 09:40:13 * qless is always sad to see, when instead he can use X-RAY VISION yay! 09:41:05 * bpt repeatedly does `exch' and is amazed to see the bodies start shuffling around 09:41:07 cool 09:41:10 exch exch exch 09:41:27 who would've guessed /that/ would happen? 09:41:36 (exch? sounds like a vax opcode...) 09:42:19 qless: exch swaps the two items on top of the stack 09:42:38 bpt, what's wrong with 'swap'? 09:43:09 qless: hm, right, it's swap in forth, I think 09:43:17 qless: exch is PostScript(R) 09:44:00 qless: PS is pretty interesting; it's just like Forth except with a slightly different syntax, and graphics things 09:44:05 ah Postsceipt(R), that's similar to Postscript(TM), isn't it? :-) 09:44:49 qless: hehe 09:44:49 PostScript(I'll_sue_your_ass_off_if_you_breath) 09:44:55 rob_ert: exactly 09:45:03 uh-oh 09:45:15 you breath? 09:45:24 rob_ert: of course not, don't be absurd 09:45:56 I guessed so.. 09:45:57 who are these people with big ``ADOBE SYSTEMS FIELD CIRCUS DIVISION'' labels on their jackets? 09:46:04 hmm 09:47:08 (paranoia) 09:47:12 Adobe is on my List[tm] since the Sklylorav incident 09:49:21 Who/what is Sklylorav? 09:50:00 hey, bpt 09:50:03 hello 09:50:06 rob_ert, he is a russian programmer who Adobe hired the fbi to bust during DefCon in las vegas last year 09:50:11 u know ps, i guess 09:50:46 dont u know some good electronical PS tutorials? 09:51:09 futhin needs a crashcourse like 1 09:51:17 heya, 1tom 09:51:23 onetom: a tut for ps? 09:51:26 yup 09:51:27 qless: Ah.. schweet big companies. 09:51:36 hi, everybody, anyway 09:51:40 qless: Money and power to the..uhm..leaders. 09:51:42 qless: ...don't forget to mention *why* he got arrested :) 09:51:50 bpt: Cracking ebooks? 09:51:55 rob_ert: right 09:52:22 also they got some help from the local police after some rather large dontations 09:52:28 rob_ert, he was busted because he gave a lecture on how to get around Adobe's ridiculiously poor copy-protection, which is totally legal is 09:52:28 dontations 09:52:31 in Russia 09:54:21 Did they jail him? 09:54:29 rob_ert: yes, he got out on bail I think 09:54:35 heh 09:54:39 America... 09:54:52 rob_ert: he was in jail for 2 months, and not allowed to go home for 6 months 09:55:54 onetom: how about http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/programming/postscript/postscript.html ? 09:56:05 lemme c 09:56:21 onetom: I used some Adobe book, PostScript Tutorial and Cookbook, I think, something like that 09:57:48 qless: What law did they use on him? 09:58:16 rob_ert, the DMCA. or more commonly known as "The War on Our Freedom" 09:58:35 qless: heh 09:58:55 qless: no, less commonly, more truthfully :) 09:59:03 bpt: thx. that is what he definetly needs 09:59:30 qless: Exactly what does that law mean? 09:59:45 and i also thank u, coz i was curious about ps, too 10:00:38 rob_ert, it means alot of things, one of them being that certain kinds of /technology/ are illegal, like software to get around media protection, instead of /behaviour/. 10:01:25 heh 10:01:32 rob_ert, check out www.eff.org to get the full skinny 10:01:34 God bless the US 10:02:23 We have a strange law too, for non-journalists, publicing information on the internet about other people is illegal. 10:02:30 rob_ert: well, he obviously does, along with every other country with religious people in it :P 10:02:59 bpt: Do you know any country without religious people? :) 10:03:17 One woman had to pay a fee for telling that her friend had broke her leg 10:03:24 (even thogh the friend didn't mind) 10:03:35 rob_ert, that is strange 10:03:38 Yes. 10:03:51 rob_ert: no :) 10:03:52 I think so, too 10:03:53 rob_ert, but its not likely to put a whole class of people in jail 10:04:03 no 10:04:08 but it's a stupid law 10:04:56 rob_ert, there's a law in .ca that makes it illegal to remove a bandage in public, and in the city i used to live in, you had to carry an extra bale of hay in your trunk (for the horses) 10:05:21 well 10:05:24 nobody cares about those 10:05:32 true :-) 10:05:36 ever heard about someone put in jail for a missing bale of hay? 10:05:46 the difference is this dumb law is actually used 10:05:54 true 10:49:31 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 10:50:11 Hey Speuler 10:50:16 hi 10:50:27 assembler still got torsten's topic ... 11:08:26 --- quit: qless (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:14:46 cheese 11:15:49 cleese 11:18:46 oh 11:38:39 john cleese? ;) 11:42:27 no. cheese. 11:51:07 P) 11:51:25 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 11:52:12 futhin: hi 11:52:14 hi 11:52:21 i have some good news 4 ya 11:52:25 ya? 11:52:56 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/programming/postscript/postscript.html 11:53:13 thats just more than enough 4 ya 11:53:34 i found that yesterday, but thanks :) 11:53:38 whats more, probably enough to do all the calculations in postscript 11:54:04 and the only thing u have to do from forth is 11:54:13 inputs 11:54:26 param1 . param2 . ." do-the-drawing" 11:54:33 yup 11:54:50 bpt has found it, anyway, not me 11:56:20 i would probably keep all the calculations in forth 11:56:22 faster 12:03:28 faster??? 12:03:39 how the fuck cares about it 12:03:47 printing itself is slow 12:04:26 so deffering calculations to print time is a pretty reasonable idea 12:04:40 s/how/who/ 12:08:06 there's not really going to be any calculations except the forth program drawing out the picture 12:09:45 besides, "A philosophy of early binding helps to produce efficient, reliable code." :P 12:49:29 --- quit: Stepan ("Do you think it is air you are breathing? Hmm?") 13:17:09 --- join: Soap- (flop@210-55-149-119.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 13:17:24 Hey :) 13:17:33 --- nick: Soap- -> Soap` 13:18:10 Mornin' 13:18:21 Hehe 13:18:32 Sure, if 22:15 is morning for you :) 13:18:45 Good morning Soap` :) 13:18:52 <-- GMT +12 :) 13:20:19 --- quit: Etaoin (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Shrdlu!~david@ljk3.sat.net))) 13:21:28 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk3.sat.net) joined #forth 13:26:24 --- quit: SoapSleep (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:57:31 --- part: Speuler left #forth 14:23:13 --- join: uiver (~segher@a43195.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 14:23:43 Hoi :) 14:23:53 howdy 15:10:44 --- quit: rob_ert (":-)") 15:17:03 --- quit: futhin () 16:40:16 --- quit: bpt (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 17:35:40 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 17:35:49 ding dong! 17:37:08 --- part: qless left #forth 17:39:23 --- join: I440r (~mark4@65.224.144.247) joined #forth 18:06:59 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise OutOfInternet") 18:12:48 --- quit: uiver (""oops"") 18:22:20 --- join: futhin (~bloh@24.64.174.2) joined #forth 18:23:24 jello all 18:24:11 hi 18:26:19 what's up soap? 18:27:01 A whole lot of nothing much :/ 18:27:08 hm? 18:27:09 why? 18:27:47 you are doing openbios stuff right? or just a hobbiest? 18:27:57 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-220.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:27:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 18:28:02 hiya all 18:28:05 finally you joined :P 18:28:14 Hey Blue 18:28:20 most forthers are on my notify list :D 18:28:22 futhin: me? 18:28:26 hiya Soap` 18:28:41 yup, yer on my list :) 18:28:42 futhin, I'm the tinker-around-do-nothing-much guy. 18:29:12 futhin: ah...ok 18:29:14 soap`: come up with a project then, something ambitious ;) 18:29:32 i'm "doing" a forth mud 18:30:21 but being lazy about it i suppose 18:30:38 working on a different project though 18:31:08 I'm slowly writing a web browser 18:31:12 heh 18:31:16 But I don't expect to see that finished anytime soon 18:32:13 thebluewizard: do you happen to be familiar with postscript? :) 18:32:29 tbw!!! 18:32:47 hiya I440r! 18:33:19 futhin: I used to dabble in Postscript in the past...but am not fluent (not enough time and practice) 18:33:35 should have some nifty curses support in isforth within the next copl of days 18:33:38 * TheBlueWizard will be back in a moment 18:34:10 thebluewizard: cool, because i'm trying to learn it so i can draw a bunch of lines in a printable format.. 18:36:56 back 18:37:25 I440r: kewl re: (n)curses support 18:37:40 no 18:37:44