00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.12 01:32:19 --- quit: Soap` () 01:34:28 --- join: Soap- (~flop@210-54-66-210.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 01:38:26 --- nick: Soap- -> SoapZZzz 03:15:22 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:01:44 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 04:01:50 moin 04:01:59 onetom: still looking for that drdobbs? 04:17:17 Stepan: yeaaah! :) 04:17:53 any results? 04:17:58 hi, anyway 04:18:40 onetom: i have it. do you have a fax or so? 04:18:52 if not i can look for a scanner.. 04:19:01 ugh, fax? well well well... letme see 04:19:31 but im in hungary. doesnt it matter? 04:19:56 is it a long article anyway? 04:29:37 what does ." do compared to just " in Forth ? 04:29:47 --- quit: SoapZZzz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:31:30 " does nothing. thats the differance :) 04:31:56 " Foo" puts the string Foo to the stack, doesnt it? 04:32:13 ." prints the string? 04:32:17 no 04:32:35 s" foo" puts an address and count onto the stack 04:33:03 both ." & s" do some parsing on the input stream 04:33:21 they r both lookin 4 a " 04:34:49 if s" finds 1 it copies the read string to a temp area (probably 2 the PAD) and returns an address&count on the stack 04:35:44 ." is doing sg similar but i dont know wheather it clutters up that temp area or not 04:36:05 but the ANS forth docs should explain it too 04:36:20 anyway, dont u have SEE in your forth version? 05:11:59 not yet. i am still working on it. 05:22:48 ??? 05:22:55 working on what? 05:23:17 implementin SEE in your own forth? 05:45:19 http://www.freiburg.linux.de/OpenBIOS/ 05:45:42 rather want to get a tokenizer for open firmware working 05:46:03 and my implementation of the virtual machine is as crappy as can be 05:56:15 ah, uve already told it. now i can remember 05:56:44 im always been interested in openfirmware 05:57:13 after ive seen it is an embeddable 4th in fact 05:59:46 doesnt -eg- sun plans 2 open their implementation of openfirmware? 06:00:31 (i think i will participate in your project later... its looks pretty interesting 4 me) 06:20:56 where can i find info about the team? 06:21:17 how many developers r working now and on which parts? 06:22:49 who support this openbios project? 06:22:58 what company r u working for? 07:05:17 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 07:11:48 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:12:34 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth 07:16:37 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-11.sat.net) joined #forth 07:24:52 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.52) joined #forth 07:32:08 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 07:35:24 onetom: the team is me at the moment. 07:35:52 I am working for SuSE, but OpenBIOS is my spare time project. It's not commercially supported at all 07:40:20 wow, thats great 07:40:20 what r u doing @ suse? 07:47:20 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 07:47:20 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:48:39 i maintain the alpha axp port 07:50:38 axp? whats that? 07:51:09 and what does this "maintaining" mean? 07:51:50 u r not responsible for certain pkgs then but 4 the whole stuff? 07:56:47 AXP is just a "project name" for the alpha CPUs 07:56:59 I'm doing all kinds of 64bit and gcc porting,.. 07:57:07 some kernel stuff, package fixing,.. 07:57:44 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:02:48 hi 08:18:35 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 08:22:31 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:23:09 onetom: the article is 6 pages. 08:26:00 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit) 08:49:18 Stepan: wow, thats great 08:49:55 that must b useful 2 me then 09:14:16 you dont need the listing, do you? 09:14:29 listing? well, dont think so... 09:14:44 thats downloadable from ddj site, i guess 09:15:04 it it seems not especially documented 09:15:29 we can leave it alone... 09:15:43 but have a look @ the related stuff at: 09:15:44 yepp. there's lots of explanations in the article itself. the script is on ddj's homepage 09:29:46 --- join: Speuler (~gpiqilf@195.30.184.52) joined #forth 09:30:06 'oi 09:35:05 hi 09:38:44 Hoi, Speuler. 09:39:19 anything new ? 09:39:33 Speuler: hi. and yes 09:39:46 ah 09:39:48 rob_ert: hi2u 09:40:09 hi onetom 09:40:30 I440r has implemented some tim&date functions in isforth (this was the topic of yesterday) 09:40:48 nice :) 09:40:52 floating-point? 09:40:54 strings? 09:40:59 does it have that? 09:41:06 and ive put together some threaded-code interpretter in forth 09:41:13 some days before 09:42:18 rob_ert: uuuh, idont know. the author is not me & am not even a user, just a tester-mate 09:42:47 ok :P 09:43:08 Do you know a good full-featured forth for Linux? 09:43:19 but i doubt it cant handle strings 09:43:36 string handling is not difficult to add 09:43:45 shouldn't it have any 09:43:57 (I440r is not here) 09:44:02 sure, i know :) 09:44:12 depending on what string fns you need of course 09:44:42 easiest is probably basic equivalent of left$ 09:44:51 : left$ min ; 09:45:04 Speuler: but thats rather an ideological in the case of isforth 09:45:15 : left$ ( adr len n -- adr1 len1 ) min ; 09:45:32 rob_ert: ive already told u, try tile-forth! 09:45:49 tile may be complete but is dead 09:45:58 at least it was for the last years 09:46:36 i#d probably go for bigforth or gforth 09:46:36 rob_ert: it doesnt have tab-expansion, tho, but its pretty well documented and has a pile of 4th sources what could serve as good reference 09:46:47 ok, nice 09:46:52 where to get it? 09:46:55 onetom: yes, the examples given are worth to have a look at 09:47:00 apt-get install gforth 09:47:05 ... 09:47:15 I use Windows XP 09:47:17 (j/k) 09:47:19 gforth <> tileforth 09:47:30 but a Linux distro without apt-get 09:47:39 Speuler: ive seen its "dead", but whats wrong w it anyway? 09:48:01 my major complaint would be tileforth's speed 09:48:11 nothing to do with being dead of course 09:48:12 its just not actively maintained, probably coz its fine 09:48:37 oh, speed is not the most important thing in many cases 09:48:48 as tile is written to be portable, all c, performance suffers 09:49:14 but compatibility, portability and feature-richness, documentedness IS 09:49:33 tileforth is not a meta compiler- 09:49:44 tile is afaik not ANS 09:50:07 thats right, but i havent seen other as clean stuff as tile 09:50:31 feature-rich - depends on its application. i often don't need feature-rich, but small and compact forths 09:50:40 rob_ert: taygeta.com is the main forth mining place :) 09:51:08 just like me 09:51:19 but i need multitasking 09:51:37 tend to use my own tasker ... 09:51:38 and speed is not that important 4 me 09:52:04 but your tasker is cooperative, isnt it? 09:52:15 have a look at pfe 09:52:29 which appeared to be dead for a while 09:52:33 but isn't 09:52:56 used by HP or Tektronix, in their scopes. 09:53:02 not sure which one 09:55:59 rob_ert: ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/windows/ 09:56:10 there is gforth, eg 09:57:19 OK, good... 09:57:27 gforth is avaiable for Linux, right? 09:57:34 yep 09:57:40 gut 09:57:59 * rob_ert is making an ASCII graph using IsForth 09:59:54 * Speuler puts his pizza disassemler to work 09:59:59 embler 10:00:26 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 10:00:29 gee, there is also a palmos dir on taygeta 10:00:48 embler? what does it mean? 10:00:59 ass-embler ;) 10:07:18 Stepan: why r u developing openbios? 10:11:54 Firmware is the only part of Software that is not available on a free open sourced basis for al large number of different machines. 10:12:07 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 10:12:49 and it's the right thing to do. there's hardware that supports it already 10:13:19 aha, thats why i also was amazed when i 1st met openfirmware 10:13:43 onetom: and that hardware contains bytecode encoded firmware drivers for device initialization. so it will work on any cpu architecture without changes. not like crappy ia32 bios 10:14:12 and this int10 hook stuff for gfx cards for example 10:14:15 yeah, thats the nicest part of it :) 10:15:49 having a generic implementation that is easy to port to new platforms will make boot process transparent. no ami bios will hide that it did not switch off your cpu id anymore for example ;) 10:16:40 and what do u think of my forth in forth "vision"? 10:16:50 s/my/"""my"""/ 10:17:40 that is: it would b nice to have a reference 4th processor/kernel implementation in forth 10:18:21 i would really appreciate such a thing. it could be of big help for openbios 10:19:09 oh, think so? how? 10:19:32 i plan 2 realize 1 because of the following reasons: 10:20:20 - teaching the internals of the 4th virtual processor 10:20:49 - allow experimenting w various kernel extensions, like multitasking 10:21:32 - 2 "square" the portability of 4th 10:22:16 - it could serve as a "common reference" when discussing forth related things 10:22:49 gotta go.. laterz 10:22:51 --- quit: Stepan ("Do you think it is air you are breathing? Hmm?") 10:28:22 hm, i need to produce pictures in forth.. like gif or jpeg or something.. i'm wondering if there's any code out there that's already done that ? 10:30:13 is it still yesterdays problem? 10:30:18 yes 10:30:35 cant remember: what os r u using? 10:30:55 i want the forth program to run in dos/windows 10:31:05 sad :) 10:31:29 but probably netpbm is written in c and it must b absolutely portable, so 10:31:46 netpbm ? 10:31:59 who cares about netpbm? 10:32:24 yes. thats a nice/easy 2 use picture handling system 10:32:44 and it has good converters 2 various formats 10:33:13 so, i thought u create some ppm 1st then u convert it 2 any format u like 10:33:32 hm 10:33:52 "they describe an image as a matrix of rows and columns of pixels" 10:34:01 that sounds relatively easy to figure out 10:34:07 ppmtoacad ppmtoilbm ppmtopcx ppmtopict ppmtorgb3 ppmtouil ppmtoyuvsplit 10:34:07 ppmtobmp ppmtomap ppmtopgm ppmtopj ppmtosixel ppmtoxpm 10:34:07 ppmtoicr ppmtomitsu ppmtopi1 ppmtopuzz ppmtotga ppmtoyuv 10:34:38 dont u know this format? 10:34:56 ppmtoacad 10:34:59 its fuckin easy 2 generate images in this format 10:35:13 never heard of the format 10:35:19 never did anything with images before 10:35:24 b it the binary or the text version of this fmt 10:35:38 thanks for the tip :) 10:35:41 let me show u a shor example 10:36:51 P6 10:36:51 64 60 10:36:51 255 10:37:20 and the binary img data comes just right after the newline 10:37:38 1byte 4 each pixel 10:38:00 and a total of 64x60 bytes 10:38:20 OOOOR 10:38:32 theres a text version of it: 10:40:37 oops, cant find an example :( 10:41:11 --- join: Soap- (flop@210-54-74-84.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 10:41:45 Hey Soap-. 10:42:01 P3 10:42:01 64 60 10:42:01 255 10:42:01 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 10:42:07 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 84 94 92 90 105 101 97 10:42:07 121 116 110 129 123 115 125 118 110 115 110 103 103 99 93 97 94 91 10:42:08 ... 10:42:36 Hi. 10:42:37 Soap-: hi! 10:42:45 eh? 10:43:04 futhin: but i still dont recommend u dealing w bitmaps 10:43:29 bitmaps r not the most suitable tool 4 your needs i think 10:45:11 * rob_ert notes forth is a nice language. 10:45:21 heh 10:45:28 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@p50847D90.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:45:30 re 10:45:44 onetom: what's wrong with bitmaps? 10:45:59 onetom: although, my picture is going to be mostly lines and text.. 10:46:07 Hi Stepan. 10:46:10 futhin: still recommend using postscript, tho i dont know it, just seen it many times 10:46:42 let me show u some excertps, which could convince u a lil bit @ least 10:46:46 %%EndPageSetup 10:46:46 do_header 10:46:46 5 766 M 10:46:46 (total 4432) s 10:46:46 5 755 M 10:46:47 (drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 SZE 1 2001 1) s 10:46:49 5 744 M 10:46:51 (drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 SZE 1 2001 2) s 10:47:06 twas produced by: 10:47:08 ls -l | enscript -o- 10:47:39 i want the easiest format to figure out and produce a picture in it.. my pictures will be lines and text. pbmtext sounds good enough, but i don't know if it handles text within the picture ? 10:47:43 and now let me look 4 the definitions of "s" and "M" 4 ya 10:48:47 futhin: thats it! i doesnt helps u creating an image, just converting an transforming and already existant 1 10:49:17 /M {moveto} bind def 10:49:19 /s {show} bind def 10:49:44 so they seem simply "macros" 4 the native postscript words... 10:50:15 but heres a more meaningful example (still cut from the output of the prev mentiond cmd) 10:50:21 /d_h exch def /d_w exch def /d_y exch def /d_x exch def 10:50:21 d_x d_y moveto 10:50:21 d_w 0 rlineto 10:50:21 0 d_h rlineto 10:50:21 d_w neg 0 rlineto 10:50:22 closepath 10:50:23 } def 10:50:40 oops, its 1st line was: 10:50:41 /Box { % x y w h -> - define box path 10:51:48 so it highly 4thish - what else could u ask? ;) 10:52:30 Stepan: how do the palm pagas feel 2day? 10:52:34 pages 10:53:18 palm pages? :) 10:53:20 (actually its the same day 4 me :) 10:53:38 oops, ive misaddressed the Q 10:53:51 Soap-: how do the palm pagas feel 2day? 10:54:45 onetom: i'll send you a picture to your address 10:55:02 id appreciate it :) 10:55:19 in .bmp 10:55:28 its much easier 2 help, when i see what r we talkin about :) 10:55:39 thats ok, i guess 10:55:57 probably xv or imagemagick will show it 10:57:53 ok, sent to hermantom@yahoo.com 10:58:17 'A' EMIT ' ok 10:58:26 That's not what I wanted... 10:59:14 ASCII A 10:59:17 puts number on stack 10:59:21 EMIT can use that number 10:59:32 CHAR A would do it too? 10:59:43 [ CHAR A ] i think .. 10:59:57 Why [ and ] ? 11:00:10 "CHAR A EMIT A" worked btw 11:00:29 you mean CHAR A EMIT 11:00:35 no A after EMIT is needed 11:00:43 uhm 11:00:46 that's what it outputs :) 11:00:49 ok 11:00:56 so, CHAR A EMIT is what I wrote 11:00:58 CHAR is interpretive, i don't think it can be compiled 11:01:00 so if 11:01:01 you do 11:01:09 : blah CHAR A EMIT ; 11:01:11 it won't work i think 11:01:14 But what is [ and ] ? 11:01:15 hm 11:01:17 I'll check 11:01:20 so : blah [ CHAR A ] EMIT ; 11:01:26 hrmm 11:01:32 what are those []s ? 11:01:40 the [ ] execute the stuff inside it _while_ the line is being read 11:01:49 so it actually will look like 11:01:55 : blah emit ; 11:01:58 to the compiler 11:02:06 this is good 11:02:14 because less stuff to execute at run-time 11:02:20 mkay :-) 11:02:27 thanks 11:02:32 no prob :) 11:03:38 k, will chk it 11:03:47 onetom, was still broken, so I tried it under Opera and it started working :) 11:04:02 sounds strange 11:04:19 what browser have u used b4 opera? 11:04:36 IE 6.0 11:05:10 rob_ert: it's a good idea to execute as much as you can at compile-time rather than run-time. also, it makes it easier to read if you have [ CHAR A ] instead of 81 (or whatever the heck the number is) 11:05:27 You want me to grab a particular ROM image for you? 11:05:37 futhin: :) 11:05:46 onetom: check picture yet ? 11:12:36 http://www.wbglinks.net/pages/watchmen.shtml 11:12:45 futhin: yes 11:13:38 the easiest way 2 generate such use postscript 11:14:06 --- topic: set to 'Forth is a programming language, an operating system, an interactive environment, and a philosophy. Read "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie and maximize the quality of your code.' by ChanServ 11:14:09 all u have 2 do is writing out a fix header 11:14:12 eh? 11:14:15 why postscript? 11:14:21 wouldn't pbmtext be easier ? 11:14:43 well... 11:14:46 what's the absolute easiest? i don't care about postscript because it's forth-like 11:14:51 gr.. what was the CLS word again? 11:15:08 cls, clear, home, ctrl-something 11:15:10 ctrl-l ? 11:15:15 no, in forth 11:15:29 no idea, clear ? 11:15:37 what did it start with? :) 11:16:37 rob_ert: page 11:17:01 thanks :D 11:17:36 futhin: well... probably u r right :-/ give it a try then 11:17:40 hm, is there any summary of the standard words found on most systems? 11:18:02 not only simple stack-handling words, but i/o, screen handling etc. 11:18:19 Soap-: well, id like to browse all the available info on their site 11:18:23 onetom: postscript seems relatively complex, i'd have to learn all the words and handling and commands 11:19:08 futhin: well, its a bit harder, but its worth learning 11:19:20 onetom: why? 11:19:40 producing a text pbm file and then converting it to ps or acad or whatever i want seems easiest :) 11:19:52 onetom: but notice, there's text in the .bmp 11:19:59 cause the result (the img u produce) will b much portable 11:20:01 scalable 11:20:11 um 11:20:11 postprocessable 11:20:23 i can convert pbm text to ps 11:20:25 extendable 11:20:40 mergable w other images 11:20:49 coz its postsript ;) 11:21:15 heh 11:21:21 look.. 11:21:41 sure, u can convert but it still remains a bitmap... 11:21:45 how do i produce lines all over the place, easily in postscript? i don't see it being easy to figure out in my head 11:21:54 but 4 a kickstart, use netpbm 11:22:07 what's wrong with bitmap 11:22:08 basically 11:22:10 this application 11:22:15 just needs to produce a picture 11:22:16 futhin: hey, i gave u an exmaple 11:22:19 that can be printed off easily 11:22:54 but printing a bitmap... 11:23:08 - u have to generate a large 1 11:23:30 - u have to do all the transformations by yourself 11:23:43 /Box { % x y w h -> - define box path 11:23:43 /d_h exch def /d_w exch def /d_y exch def /d_x exch def 11:23:43 d_x d_y moveto 11:23:43 d_w 0 rlineto 11:23:43 0 d_h rlineto 11:23:44 d_w neg 0 rlineto 11:23:46 closepath 11:23:48 } def 11:23:50 that right ? 11:23:55 yup 11:23:57 ok 11:24:02 thats a good starting point 11:24:05 iguess 11:24:15 ok 11:24:22 i see it now 11:24:24 you are right 11:24:29 but ive already admited, i havent used ps b4 personally 11:27:49 Soap-: ive seen a some hardware devel pages -eg- that also requires being registered 11:28:38 Soap-: so id like to have an overview of the info available after registraton 11:30:38 Soap-: and probably id like to have all the rom images to play w them 11:31:01 Soap-: and to try out all of them wo having 2 buy them 11:31:23 Soap-: but thats just an example. when i start developing 11:31:44 Soap-: probably i would use it regulary 11:31:47 oh no, i put that code into box.ps and nothing happened :P 11:32:48 Soap-: so, plz plz plz, share your acc w me! i beg. it would ease starting development 11:33:00 futhin: like i did :) 11:33:35 certainly there must b some more init code 11:33:46 what sets ink color and the like 11:34:09 but, come on! ask google about a good postscript primer! ;) 11:34:34 google is evil! 11:34:43 then ask av.com ;) 11:34:52 whats wrong w it anyway? 11:37:38 onetom: There's the knowledge base, rom images, bluetooth development kits, PalmOS source code and "international web clipping tools". I'm happy to copy off anything you want, but I ain't sharing my account :P 11:40:38 Soap-: /me sad, but thx anyway :) 11:42:10 I know it's somehow possible to get access to that stuff without mailing anything in, 'cos I've done it. You might want to try browsing around the site a bit more. 11:47:24 Does forth have <= and >= operators? 11:47:47 um 11:47:54 don't think so.. 11:47:59 OK... 11:48:17 if I want to push the value 'a'-1 at compile-time, how should I do? 11:48:30 [ CHAR a 1 - ] ? 11:48:35 1 2 >= if 11:48:45 no 11:48:46 not 1 - 11:48:47 -1 11:48:53 ok 11:49:04 1 - means it'll subtract 1 from whatever is on the stack.. 12:06:39 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 12:08:31 hola speuler 12:09:59 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:12:15 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust99.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 12:12:43 hola i440r 12:12:54 i'm going to do the drawing in ps heheh 12:13:03 ugh 12:13:08 why 12:13:17 are you familiar with postscript language ? 12:13:27 simple to just use my line drawing shit and then save it out as a gif 12:13:43 no 12:13:44 what's your email address? 12:13:47 i'll send you a picture 12:13:52